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S1, E6 [Bonus!] The Career Coven: Listener questions
118 Plays9 months ago
In this episode, Annie and Bec give you a career coven palate cleanser and answer some audience questions which have been left since the start of the podcast. It’s a “snippy snappy” episode, to use Bec’s words, where we both alternate in giving answers.
We cover questions like:
- Born to lead, or learn to lead?
- Can you have work-life balance as a leader?
- How to build up your confidence after set backs
- How can you start a side hustle alongside a job?
- How useful is it to do an MBA?
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Transcript
Introduction to Career Coven and Listener Questions
00:00:07
Speaker
Hello. Hello. And welcome to the Career Coven with Beck. And this is...
00:00:14
Speaker
Annie! Today we're doing an extra bonus episode. We have had so many questions from our listeners, not necessarily on topics that we have got covered in full yet, but we thought we would do a kind of snippy snappy set of fun questions from the listeners. We think they're great. So I hope you're looking forward to this as much as we are. This, I think, is one I'm most excited about.
00:00:43
Speaker
Let's get started. Annie, I'm going to ask you the first question.
Rebuilding Confidence After Setbacks
00:00:47
Speaker
How can you build confidence when you've had knockbacks or setbacks?
00:00:53
Speaker
Yeah, that is a great question. I think trying to analyze what happened, what knocked you back, what set you back and specifically understanding, you know, your part and the external factors in the things that made you lose your confidence. And then I think working from like that place of understanding, you can then try and
00:01:21
Speaker
reframe what happened and build your confidence back up. You know, knowing that this is a snippy snappy episode, I think there's like a lot that you could say to this question, but it would probably require like understanding more kind of personally about what happened to this individual. But I think that with me and I have had like loads of loads
00:01:51
Speaker
But frankly, yes, loads of like confidence knocks and setbacks. The thing that makes me recover quickest is actually like understanding what happened in a lot of detail and then being able to look at that like with a bit more objectivity, try and understand what happened and then work from that to like build my confidence back up.
00:02:08
Speaker
So obviously, if you haven't listened to our confidence episode, I would definitely suggest that you also listen to that because that might be helpful. But don't like, don't sort of be afraid of like looking back at that really stressful time. I have definitely made that mistake before just put my head in the sand and like not analyse what happened. And I think that that leads to potentially like a kind of false sense of recovery that actually isn't real. And then I think you can lose your confidence again quite quickly. So yeah, I would
00:02:37
Speaker
say analyse what happened and then work from there. Lovely. Okay, we're just going to try and do like back and forth.
Strategies for Re-entering the Workforce
00:02:47
Speaker
So I am going to ask you back, how can you reaffirm your position in an organisation after a period of absence?
00:02:57
Speaker
I love this question. There are so many different ways in which you could have a period of absence. I think a lot of people who are listening who we've heard have gone on maternity leave. Personally, I have had a double mastectomy where I was on leave for eight weeks and various other things, a three-week holiday even, dare I say. I think in terms of reaffirming yourself when you've come back, obviously depends on the duration, but
00:03:24
Speaker
Always, I think it's smart to just kind of listen for a bit of time and hear about what's been going on and ask questions and really get to grips with what's happened while you've been out most of the time. Nothing really has changed. So actually, you shouldn't really feel worried too much about that. And then I think in terms of kind of reasserting yourself back in the organization.
00:03:45
Speaker
think it's really important that the work that you have handed over is handed back and you kind of re-establish your kind of leadership and ownership of that and I would also say you know if it's a longer period of absence where it's a bit more difficult to have that kind of handover period because so much has moved on I think it's really helpful to do a temperature check across the organisation particularly if you're a team leader on
00:04:10
Speaker
How are people feeling about the work that my team has done? What are some improvement areas? And cross-check that with what the team's been doing. And I think that's a really healthy point for everyone. If you kind of start a kind of refresh strategy of what you want to do and a delivery plan, that always goes down really well. I've seen the person who I did a Mac cover role for in the BBC do that really well. And I just think it's fabulous. So that's what I would say.
00:04:38
Speaker
That's super interesting. Yeah. I love the point about stuff being handed back, like actively to you. Cause I think that could be so easily missed. Yeah. So yeah, it makes, it makes a lot of sense. Your question, Annie.
Starting a Side Hustle While Managing Responsibilities
00:04:52
Speaker
How do you start a side hustle whilst working?
00:04:56
Speaker
Good question, good question. I mean, it's really hard and it takes a lot of discipline. The thing that you need to create for yourself in your day is time. So that time is going to have to come from somewhere. Whether that's before you start work, whether it's after you start work, you're going to have to be quite disciplined about setting out time to work on whatever your side hustle is. And that means that
00:05:23
Speaker
it's likely that another part of your life will take the consequences of putting that time into the side hustle. So that might be time spent with friends, time spent with family, and I think it's quite important for you to be active about which part of your
00:05:42
Speaker
current life is going to like take the hit obviously for a lot of people the factual truth is that it's their work that takes the hit you know they'll choose to finish an hour early um i would say you know be very careful of that as a strategy because
00:05:59
Speaker
Mostly if you start a side hustle in future people will probably reference you with your employer and it is really really important that the person you worked for most recently says that you're like Exceptional, especially if you want to like go on for your side hustle and raise money So I would say like be careful with saying oh I just take the last two hours of my working day and put it into whatever the side hustle is like and that might come to like bite you later and
00:06:29
Speaker
But yeah, I think the main thing is like you need time and that takes discipline and you have to understand where that time is going to come from. And then you just do it. You just commit to whatever it is and start. I think a really important thing with a side hustle is just start something. Just start doing something.
00:06:47
Speaker
And it makes it a lot less scary once you've started. It's a lot more motivating once you start to see that you are actually producing something, creating something, getting some feedback, talking to some potential users. Don't just sit and like spend two hours a day thinking about what you might do because I would actually say that unfortunately that is not starting a side hustle. That is thinking about starting a side hustle.
00:07:14
Speaker
So yeah, I would say find the time and then just like jump in, get going. Nothing's perfect. Everything will change so much from your first idea to like your final idea. Just accept that and like get going. It's just like our little pod. We dumped it right in without any idea. That's what I was thinking. That's exactly what I was thinking as I was saying that.
Setting and Maintaining Boundaries at Work
00:07:37
Speaker
Where do you sit on weekends? If you're doing your kind of, if you don't take your time from work, how much of your weekend do you think you should devote to a side hustle without burning yourself into the ground? I think it depends what sort of side hustle you want to have. So without Alva was a side hustle alongside a job for six months, seven months, and 100% that was
00:07:56
Speaker
an hour of my working day at the in the evenings and then a day of my weekends like without question but I knew that that was like we wanted it to be a VC back business you know we wanted to be a very big business we had to prepare for like fundraise etc so that was my choice that was going to be just one day of the weekend and my evenings
00:08:15
Speaker
And that for that type of business, that was the minimum, I think that could have got us to where we wanted to go over that period. I think it's very, very different if you have something like
00:08:27
Speaker
For example, you want to start coaching and you want to take a coaching course, like there will probably be a set amount of hours that you need to do each week. And that might not have to eat into your weekends and it might be better that you do it from six to seven every evening or whatever. But I think if it is your weekends, you should just be mindful of like,
00:08:46
Speaker
the people in your life that are going to also be impacted by that and be able to communicate with them about how they feel as well because it's really important when you start a side hustle to have the support around you of the people in your life and yeah it will impact them so try and be open about that. Super interesting. Okay
00:09:11
Speaker
Right, Beck, how do you manage your own boundaries when others refuse to respect them? I mean, I love this question. If you haven't listened to the boundaries, it's a great one. But I mean, this has happened to me, I think socially as well as at work. And I think you really have to work on
00:09:34
Speaker
understanding how firm that boundary is, because if it is a really firm boundary that you feel really strongly about, then you stick to it. And that can feel really uncomfortable. So say
00:09:47
Speaker
Socially, someone wants to see you every week and you're like, oh my God, I don't even have time to pick my nose every week. That's not possible. You can just say, I would really love to do that. I'm really stretched. I can make this time next month work. Generally speaking, people are really respectful of them. I think also,
00:10:06
Speaker
in the workplace, I would have a degree of who I'm willing to flex for. This is a good example. Next week, I'm on leave. I've done a really big piece of work and I have been asked to present it to someone super senior. And I was like, I don't mind dialing in for that call on my holiday because it's really, really, really important. But there is almost no other circumstance in which I would dial in from holiday. And I think it's okay to have those little bits of flexibility in when it's something really important.
00:10:35
Speaker
Yeah, love that. Also, congratulations. Well done. Yeah, I think that's so true. And there just will be circumstances, right, where you want to flex. And that's fine. But yeah, I think it's important to understand when it's too frequent, it's going too far, and you sort of losing yourself. Yeah, you totally have to be aware that if you are continually flexing them, that you haven't actually asserted your boundary at all.
00:11:03
Speaker
Yeah. Any next question for you, leadership, born to lead or learned to lead?
The Nature of Leadership: Learned or Inherent?
00:11:10
Speaker
Oh, learned to lead, born to lead. What? Like, would anyone believe that anymore? Yeah, there's obviously going to be people who naturally love like storytelling and want to be in a position where they are at the front of the pack. And I think that
00:11:32
Speaker
Some people will have shown that very early in life.
00:11:39
Speaker
it's definitely not everyone and it's not like one personality type should be a leader and I think there's a lot of like misinformation and kind of frankly bullshit on LinkedIn about you know the personality types of leaders and you know it was Winston Churchill and ENTJ and it's like honestly did Winston Churchill have the time to do that little test like was he doing Myers-Briggs
00:12:03
Speaker
Really? Like, I don't think he probably was. But anyway, I think that the world is changing really, really fast. And what leadership means looks very, very different from one place to another. And therefore, you would expect that there are multiple different types of leaders. And I think that we should be optimistic about like what that means for what business and leadership is. And so yeah, for me, it's like a very hard, you know,
00:12:31
Speaker
not born to lead, learn to lead. I totally agree. I feel like it's about padding out your skillset that you naturally have with the ones that you don't naturally have. For me, I spoke about this before, I'm really not naturally extroverted and making myself more approachable to people has been really important.
00:12:46
Speaker
I mean, my Myers-Briggs is INTJ, which is like the Voldemort of Myers-Briggs. It's so funny that like, everyone's like, mine's the bad one. And I'm like, is it? I thought that like, everyone who worked at McKinsey was an INTJ. Actually, no, I don't know. Anyway, mine changes every time I do it.
00:13:07
Speaker
You could argue that Voldemort was quite successful at what he wanted to do. So, I don't know. Anyway. Not a Harry Potter person, so can't even follow the reference. Hopefully we won't get any hate for that. Okay, Beck. Is it possible to have work-life balance as a leader?
Work-Life Balance as a Leader
00:13:26
Speaker
I'm going to answer this question as I am now, which is childless and you are also childless. And I think in this circumstance it absolutely is possible. I think I have an amazing work-life balance. I think you have an amazing work-life balance too. I was literally thinking that in the shower this morning. Like, God, she's got an amazing life. Anyway.
00:13:47
Speaker
Oh, lovely. Thank you. But you know, I have, I don't think about work at the weekend, other than my one call on my holiday next week, I will not check my emails or do anything like that. And I fully completely enjoyed my time outside of work. And it's also just taken years of discipline to put those boundaries in to to say I'm not I'm not doing this work anymore. I'm logging off. I'm doing something else. I'm doing something I really enjoy. So I think it totally is possible. I suspect for
00:14:16
Speaker
parents, that is a much harder question to answer because you have a whole extra layer of demands on your time outside of work. And some of those demands hit inside work hours as well. So I want to caveat that answer that's probably different for parents. Yeah, I agree. And I think that's a really, and carers of any form. Yeah, I think that's a really important distinction. But, you know, you'd hope it is possible, because
00:14:45
Speaker
Otherwise, yeah, that would be really miserable. If it isn't possible, that would be really miserable. And I think we talked about this on the Boundaries episode, but for both of us, it was true, right? That a lot of the best leaders we've ever met have really good work-life balance. They have very active life outside of work. They're very committed to their
00:15:05
Speaker
lobbies or their children or their other stuff and I think you made that point and it definitely resonated with me for like really great leaders I have worked with you know they use their time outside of work very actively and they enjoy it and I can't you know can't see that work would get in the way of those things for those people. Totally I mean we're born to live we're not born to work, working is just a part of life and I think part of being a really good leader and being you know
00:15:32
Speaker
really successful in your workplace is also just being a really rounded human more holistically. And that is I'm sure there is no surprise around a correlation between people who are holistically well and successful because they manage that. Okay, Annie, next question for you.
Standing Out as a Leader
00:15:49
Speaker
How can you stand out as a leader in your workplace?
00:15:54
Speaker
Yeah, it's an interesting one because I guess it really depends on your workplace, right? Because if everyone has like a certain style, you will probably stand out just by not having that style or being different or approaching things in a different way, thinking differently.
00:16:11
Speaker
In general, you know, I think leadership, which I feel is separate from kind of management, we talked about differently, leadership is often around influencing storytelling, getting people on your side, motivating them around, you know, the story, the goals, the aim. And I think that
00:16:35
Speaker
that requires usually quite strong people skills you know like you're building relationships you're understanding people's motivations you're able to align stakeholders around a common vision tell that story and then frankly just keep everyone on track and like watch them you know get confused and like correct them and just like you know make sure that the you know the organization keeps moving around this goal whatever that goal is and
00:17:05
Speaker
So if you're in a place where like, it's got to a certain point without, without that style, you know, you could stand out a lot by being what I would call a caring people leader. But it's really, it's really difficult, right? Because if everyone there has got these kind of really strong, compassionate skills that make them good at storytelling and leadership, then you probably wouldn't stand, stand out as much. I don't think leaders have compassionate people skills. Please continue.
00:17:37
Speaker
Well, you know, maybe I'm like describing the mecca of like, employment, you like go into somewhere and everyone's like absolutely incredible. But I do think the other part is like, you have to have a point of view, you know, like, that is, that is going to help you stand out is like, have a point of view and then influence people to your point of view. And
00:17:59
Speaker
evidence your point of view really strongly and I think most places, regardless of whether the styles are similar or not, would say that that is a way to stand out, is to have a point of view and then be able to motivate people around it.
00:18:13
Speaker
Right, I'm just going to move straight on to you because I think this is a really interesting one.
Is an MBA Necessary for Career Advancement?
00:18:18
Speaker
How useful is it to do an MBA, which you have done? You superstar. I have done. I did it in the pandemic and I started it when everything was in lockdown and that felt like I had so much time I didn't know what to do with and then turns out when everything reopened I had lots of things I wanted to do in my time.
00:18:37
Speaker
So I went through a journey. I did it two years on top of my work. It was important to me that I didn't have a working break. A, because how am I going to pay the mortgage? And B, quite like where I was at at the time anyway. So a full time thing wasn't really going to work for me.
00:18:57
Speaker
studying and working at the same time is really intense though. It's like a side hustle, right? It's a form of a side hustle, you just have to find this. And it's like every six weeks you have two 1500, 2000 word assignments to submit and you have a new block of lectures to go to. I, being very blunt, did not go to many lectures live and kind of
00:19:22
Speaker
skippity-dude through the PowerPoints, as I felt was useful. So that was my kind of on-the-ground experience. I also hated being in online groups. No one likes a breakout room with strangers. It's an awesome experience. Oh, God. Breakout rooms, yeah.
00:19:41
Speaker
That actually really is such a good reference for the pandemic, the breakout room. I haven't been put in a breakout room for like three years and I don't fucking want to go back to one. Every time I get put in one, I just slam my laptop shut and I'm like, no, no, that's the end of my engagement in this. So as you may tell from my undertone, I didn't really enjoy it that much. And part of that might have been the online experience. I also did it through a scheme where I didn't have to pay for it, which also
00:20:09
Speaker
dictated what university I had to go to and what the kind of, therefore the cohort of people who went there. When I finished my MBA, I made it my mission to tell people that they probably didn't need to do one. And I've sort of softened on that a little bit since then. It's been a couple of years, but I think I was surprised at how much I had just organically learned through doing work, through doing, you know,
00:20:37
Speaker
like, I don't know, eight years of work by the time I'd maybe even six before I started, I was surprised at how much I just already knew. And actually, speaking of McKinsey, when I was doing McKinsey interview preps, which I decided not to kind of proceed with in this sort of weird part of my career where I wanted to do consultancy, but then
00:20:57
Speaker
it sort of felt like working for the Bank of Evil in The Incredibles. Let's not get on to McKinsey in this episode. No. Off topic. Continuing. The frameworks that I had studied for those interview preps were the same frameworks that were in the FBAU. And actually, you could, you could in fact just
00:21:20
Speaker
Google like the seven different frameworks, and then that's basically your MBA. So it's true, it comes up the whole time. I mean, everyone's heard about a SWOT analysis. A SWOT analysis comes up, they might have a bloody MBA module and you're like, are you being serious? So the reason I wanted to do an MBA, which was I'd always told myself when I looked at jobs, that I really wanted, they all said MBA preferred.
00:21:50
Speaker
And I was like, shit, I've got to get one of those if I want to work in those places. And actually, if anyone is thinking that that's their motivation for getting an MBA, just don't do it. It's totally pointless. I know other people who have done MBAs who found
00:22:03
Speaker
the experience better when they were in person, in person, a good institution with a strong cohort of people and everyone always said the cohort of people is what they value the most. I obviously didn't really have that mostly because I just didn't go to the breakout rooms or any of the cohort stuff anyway. But all of those institutions cost up
00:22:24
Speaker
fucking fortune. Yeah, they do. And, you know, very elite in general, they are very elite places. If I if I had infinite money, I would have gone to an Ivy League NBA. In fact, they are so prohibitive. I just really believe it's an absolute scandal how much they charge. And including the like top universities in the UK or in Seattle, anything like that. They are daily robbery, tuition fees. So I just don't, I totally don't see
00:22:53
Speaker
Um, a world in which I would ever pay for that. So if you're paying for an MBA yourself, and I would just think really carefully about, uh, where you do it and why you're doing it, because factually, I don't think it's really made that much of a difference. Interesting. Interesting. Okay. I'm going to go on to the next
Managing Low Performance in Team Members
00:23:13
Speaker
question. How can you manage yourself when you are unbelievably frustrated with or hate the person you line manage?
00:23:20
Speaker
particularly if they are low performing. I love this question. I love this question. It honestly made me deeply sad when I read and hate or hate in brackets, because I was thinking like, God, hate is such a strong word for someone you lie manage. So I hope that this person doesn't really feel like actual hatred towards the person. But let's say they do. I think
00:23:46
Speaker
I would definitely try on an individual level to examine like what particularly is driving like that level of frustration that it has turned into hatred. And the likelihood is that it will be that you think you've put a lot of efforts into helping them and that they have not responded. And that is pissing you off for lack of a better word. And I think that's very natural. Like, of course, when you give your time to someone and you try and then you see,
00:24:13
Speaker
you know, nothing in return from for that effort. That is just naturally very, very frustrating. I mean, I would, I would obviously say, deal with it. That is your job as their manager. Sorry for like a bit of tough love. But you know, you are meant to deal with this. And I think have a have a conversation with them. If they are low performing, fire them, you know, and do that in the way that suits
00:24:40
Speaker
the organisation you're in, you know, if they need to be put on a performance review, put them on a, put them on a PIP, I obviously believe that when people are put on PIPs, they should have a chance to pass them. So you shouldn't just fail them because you hate them. Like, you know, they need, it needs to be fair, it needs to be objective and it should be well structured so they can pass or they can clearly fail and you can get them out of the business.
00:25:01
Speaker
But yeah, you have to deal with it. This is your job. So you need to talk to them. You need to decide, are they going to be put on some sort of performance management scheme? Are they going to be fired? Or is there actually a personal thing between you that isn't working, but they are performing like better than you think. And I think if it's that, you know, it's probably useful for you to go into that performance management meeting having got
00:25:25
Speaker
a version of 360 feedback on this person so that you understand, has my judgment now been clouded because I find them so personally frustrating, but actually everyone else thinks they're fine, they're performing, they're delivering, in which case you have to talk to them about what is happening between the two of you and why you are frustrated and maybe what you need to see from them to make you feel less frustrated.
00:25:52
Speaker
But I really feel for this person because, you know, yes, hate is a very strong word. And I'm sure that they've probably tried some of this, but I would also say back to you. Sorry, you're a manager and this is your job. Ooh, laugh a bit of tough laugh. You know.
00:26:12
Speaker
Don't be a manager if you don't want to deal with this. Like every manager has dealt with feeling frustrated and an under performer, maybe not the combination of the two, but like it will come up. So you just got to, just got to work through it. Right.
00:26:28
Speaker
Amen. Okay.
Career Progression Within an Organization
00:26:30
Speaker
What are some ways to plan for career evolution within a company or organization? What are the key factors that must be taken into consideration? I think this is such a good one for you because you have built such an amazing career across like quite a few different organizations. So how did you plan it? How did I plan it? I would... Susan wants to know as well. Oh, good girl.
00:26:53
Speaker
We haven't had Susan on the pod for a while, I'm so delighted. So in terms of navigating career evolution, I most of the time, I can't say that I forward plan more than sort of one or two steps ahead of where I am now because I just don't
00:27:12
Speaker
know what future me is going to feel like or what I'm enjoying or not enjoying or the kind of stakeholders in the mix. For me, it's really, really important that you have a series of people more senior than you who you can call on as kind of mentors and sponsors. And I use those conversations fairly regularly as soundboarding for what I could or should be doing.
00:27:36
Speaker
I think at most times when I have had a promotion within an organization, I'm never normally the first person to go, I deserve a promotion. Someone has probably said, have you thought about this? Or maybe it's someone in your team who recognizes you. And actually, that sort of flicks a light on in your brain where you're like, oh, maybe I should look into it and have a look.
00:28:04
Speaker
The way to go about that really depends on the org structure and how big the company is. So in three of the places where I've worked, I've had a promotion in team, um, in the same team can be a bit challenging because you are basically either waiting for someone to leave or you are
00:28:31
Speaker
having to make your boss work to create a new more senior role so that you can move into it. So both of those are complicated and not always successful and actually
00:28:43
Speaker
There have been times when I've left companies because I'm like, actually, there is I can't see where I'm going next and I'm going to get boxed in. I left the civil service as a deputy director because I was like, I just know this institution is not going to promote me unless I've got five more years under my belt at this level. And I sort of don't want that enough to wait five years for it. I think it's good to know where, where and how far those next steps are.
00:29:10
Speaker
and use your kind of sponsors and mentors as guidance points to get you to the next stage. Another thing I would say, which is really helpful is the use of maternity cover roles. So often, I'd say, we both done those. We should do a whole ep on that cover. I absolutely love it.
00:29:34
Speaker
Yeah, I would agree. But it was definitely really successful for me as well. Yeah, it's just such a great way to dip your toes into something new. And perhaps it might be more senior. And, you know, in the case when I came into BBC, that was a step up for me. And I really loved it. And it's also a great way to test whether you like a team and a line manager in a sort of commitment light way where
00:29:57
Speaker
there is an end point. And, you know, at that end point, if you love the organisation, the organisation will probably find a way to keep you. But equally, it's a way in which if you don't love the organisation, you can walk away with clean hands, which to be frank is what happened with me at Conde Nast. So, acting up roles are a really good way to kind of get in a more senior level and try all that out.
00:30:21
Speaker
and just look around for some pregnant ladies. Just ask them whether they want a kind of great best pal to keep their seat warm while they're gone. Because actually, when you are doing that, it's a really great opportunity to try it out and hand it back to the person and find a new thing. So I think maternity covers are great. I also would say take advantage of opportune moments
00:30:51
Speaker
that come up. So in the pandemic, there was obviously crisis response and they were like, we need people urgently. And I'd had a promotion on that basis because they were like, this is such an important role and we need someone good in there quickly and we don't have time to do a long recruitment. So I think there are a few different ways that if you feel like you're ready, you can leverage up as well as the usual promotion routes. Great. Thank you. That's so interesting. Okay. Next question for you. This is a quote.
The Role of Office Attendance in Career Growth
00:31:21
Speaker
I think office attendees get better responsibilities, progression and influencing opportunities. How do we get the introverts and Gen Zs who need this most to understand they should be coming in more? Yeah, it's not simple this like in office, out of office working stuff. So I don't have like the perfect answer, but I think that
00:31:46
Speaker
I would definitely be trying to frame it as like you're missing out on learning opportunities that other people are getting because that just is true. I think we've talked about this before. I don't know if it was on the podcast or just as humans, but in my first few jobs, like I just listened to like everything everyone was saying, everyone was doing. And like, I learned so much like a little sponge just through
00:32:14
Speaker
being a part of what conversations were going on in the office. And that was obviously when office working five days a week was the norm, but I can't really imagine.
00:32:25
Speaker
at the start what it would have been like to just be sitting at home and trying to figure out how to do everything. It would have been very isolating and definitely I wouldn't have developed as quickly as I did. There's no question and I think that if you talk to most people who are probably middle management or above now like our level
00:32:45
Speaker
and they would say the same which was like at the start that's when you want to be in all the time you know that's when you're learning so much you don't even know what people's jobs are what they do what it means so i think that encouraging them not to come in because they have to network or meet people which obviously for introverts it's like an incredibly intimidating way to like position it
00:33:06
Speaker
but actually saying you know lots happens in the office and just listening to conversations listening to questions that people ask each other and maybe hearing the answer and then maybe applying that to what you're doing can make you you know take leaps in your jobs in your job in your progression that you might not be able to take if you're just at home never getting that um
00:33:29
Speaker
opportunity to kind of learn vicariously through others. And, you know, that is assuming that these people want to progress, which, honestly, with Gen Z, you know, that's another, that's like another, it's another conversation, right? I think in some environments, like there's data to suggest these people don't, they actively don't want to progress as quickly, you know, the culture in which they grew up is like less work focused, and that's sort of fine. But like,
00:33:55
Speaker
you know, assuming that these people kind of want to make progress and want to stay in an organization and want to build a career, I would try and frame it around learning. Right, Beck, this is such a good question.
Impact of Parenthood on Career Opportunities
00:34:08
Speaker
Do you think, oh, and very hard, I would say, before I asked you that, I think this is a very hard question to answer, but it's interesting. Do you think women are treated differently if they do or don't have children? I think sadly, the answer is yes. I agree.
00:34:24
Speaker
I'd say yes, definitely. We saw this in the pandemic in droves where parents who were looking after their children at home as well as working, I mean, poor guys would have been horrific. They were just not able to be around.
00:34:45
Speaker
And as a result of that, they were just less able to do work during work hours, which meant as a childless person in the pandemic, I had to do more work, which was just the reality. You know, there's pros and cons on both sides. In fact, I'd probably rather have been on my side than having to look after small people at the same time, because God bless them, that sounds awful. But
00:35:12
Speaker
I don't think I would have got the opportunities that I did during the pandemic if I'd had kids, you know, when you're, when you're doing a job that is on average 60 hours a week, but has peaks up to 90.
00:35:25
Speaker
You just can't do that, I don't think, without a really robust, well, we definitely could have done that in the pandemic. I think you can do that in general life, but that comes with a lot of ifs and buts around childcare and the role that your partner plays if you have a partner and those sorts of things. So I do think there is a different treatment.
00:35:46
Speaker
That is a particularly acute example of it. But, you know, I think people will look at someone who doesn't have children as someone who could stay an extra hour and the consequences of doing that are much lower and they are much more likely to say yes than someone who has to do pickup. So I think that's just unfortunately true. I wish there was a different answer to this, but I don't think there is.
00:36:09
Speaker
I agree. And I think that the truth is that those people without children are going to have to have stronger boundaries. They're going to have to be better at applying them if you don't want to stay that extra hour.
00:36:21
Speaker
you haven't got this like kind of easy example of like, my kids won't get home, which everyone can like empathise with whether or not you have children. Like that's the truth is everyone can empathise with that issue. Whereas, you know, you're going to have to be a lot more strong and forceful around like, no, I'm not doing that because I'm because of this. And that's what I need to do.
00:36:43
Speaker
And I think that is really hard because not everyone will empathise with like actually I go to the gym at five or I have a personal trainer or you know and I'm not saying all people with children like that's what they do but you know it could be anything right and it's just not as big a reason as like a small infant will be left alone at the school gates.
00:37:05
Speaker
which everyone can empathise with. So yeah I totally agree. I think it proliferates and I think it's really really common and I'm not sure what we do about it really but I definitely think that's true. Yeah and I also think like part of this is going to be a very long cultural shift that we will see in our careers at some point around respecting the other people who
00:37:29
Speaker
But like, if they want to go to the gym, or they want to go to pottery, or frankly, they just don't want to do an extra hour of work, they can just go. And, and that's an unexpected decision, as much as anything else. But we can, we can be the change. We can be, we can be the 5pm warriors. Okay, last one.
Maximizing Impact While Working Part-Time
00:37:50
Speaker
How do you best add value while not working full time?
00:37:56
Speaker
Yeah, this is an interesting one for me. I haven't, I've had quite a lot of non full-time working across like freelancing at various different times. As I was thinking about this question, I actually thought the less hours that you give someone and that you're billing for, I think the more you have to prepare, like that is the truth. So if you only get one hour with someone and you're charging inserts,
00:38:23
Speaker
X price that is much higher. You should be preparing for that hour so that it is incredibly high impact for that individual and I implore all of those people that advise businesses and then don't prepare for that hour to like take a long hard look at yourself in the mirror because that's really dishonest.
00:38:42
Speaker
But yeah, I think that the less time you have to make an impact, the more you have to like, prepare and kind of keep your energy up for those days in which you are there or those hours which you are there and you are kind of billing your time. I think that
00:39:00
Speaker
The truth is like, as your time gets more crunched, I think you usually are more in a strategic role and less in a delivery role. So you have to use your skills to get other people to deliver on your behalf. And that is parts of leadership, parts of management, but also just part of it is like articulating
00:39:20
Speaker
your why for this strategy very very clearly to whoever you're delivering it to so that they feel a kind of burning platform is there to like try it and yeah you have to get used to the fact that you may hand over a plan or an idea or something and they may execute it like totally differently to what you would have thought because you're not actually there all the time and so I think kind of
00:39:46
Speaker
having those expectations that you're not going to be delivering it. And then again, preparing for that so that this team, this person, whatever can deliver it. I think that's really, really important. So I would definitely encourage people that aren't working full time to really be planning a lot like what they're going to do with the time and making sure that the hours that they have are the most high impact that they can be. And that I think is how, you know, fractional,
00:40:15
Speaker
Leadership, which is getting so much more common, works. It's like those people are still very, very diligent, very, very committed, but they land next branch. Can you explain fractional leadership? Hasn't made it to the corporate world yet.
00:40:29
Speaker
Yeah, okay. So in like smaller businesses, like there's this real trend towards maybe people who have done like a C-suite role or like a head off role, actually saying, I want to do that for multiple small businesses at one time. So I will be a fractional head of operations. I will do two days a week with one startup and three days a week with another. Or I will, you know,
00:40:50
Speaker
whatever, split the time, you could have loads of fractional roles. What it gives the startup is access to really senior experienced talent that they can't afford full time, which is usually attractive or can be attractive to people. It also gives them flexibility. These people are contractors, they're not paying them
00:41:08
Speaker
they're pension or anything and they're not committing to these early senior hires that can be really, really hard for early stage startup founders to actually want. And yeah, for the individual, you get to work probably a full-time job, if not maybe a little bit more than a full-time job, but you get paid by two different companies
00:41:31
Speaker
you know, it's a way to potentially kind of try before you buy, you know, if you find one through fractional leadership that then scales and does really well, you join it full time. And yeah, I think that the pandemic and flexible working has like heavily influenced this trend of like,
00:41:46
Speaker
you don't want to just work for one place but you do want to like help multiple people and that's what fractional leadership is and but i think all the people i know who really succeeding in fractional leadership like take those roles really really seriously they are like very directive in the hours that they have with startups they are very very well prepared and they understand that like the benefits of having someone senior for like a day a week let's say is that they can direct
00:42:14
Speaker
a strategy that they have seen work before to more junior people to implement it and yeah so I think you have to be really really well prepared you have to use the time well and yeah you have to influence people to deliver what you're saying without necessarily necessarily being their line manager being responsible for their performance you know you don't have the normal strings to pull to motivate people so you have to like be a bit more creative about it I think
00:42:43
Speaker
Interesting. And just a follow-up question. Yeah. For someone who's working part-time, let's say they work three days a week and they are being asked to do stuff on their two days off, what would you say? I would say say no.
00:43:02
Speaker
know that sounds really simple and it's obviously not because everyone who's working three days a week they still want to be good at their job maybe you're working flexibly because you've got kids and you're transitioning back in you know there's loads of reasons that you might be only working full-time but like you have to be boundaried about those days because otherwise you will just become like a full-time employee by accident and you won't be getting
00:43:26
Speaker
to do whatever you needed to do on those two other days that made you decide that you didn't want to be full time. And you were paid to be full time. And you won't get paid to be full time. And it won't it won't help. You know, the truth is the person giving you stuff on the Thursday when you only work Monday to Wednesday needs to be organized to organize enough to give you that stuff on the Monday. That's what I would say back to them.
00:43:50
Speaker
Great, I'll handle this on Monday. By the way, just a reminder, I only work Mondays to Wednesdays, so if you need me to do something urgently, please try and give it to me on a Monday or a Tuesday. I can put a reminder in your diary if you like.
00:44:05
Speaker
You know, perfect. Be really practical. But like, yeah, I'm terrible for this, by the way, you know, I make it sound really easy. Just say no. I say yes all the time, you know, when I'm not working on it. Oh, just sneak on here. Yeah, I'll just make sure they're okay. I'll just do a little bit of slack. But like the truth is you don't get the space that you needed for that day off. And I'm sure that you've had the same like working five and four, like, whatever it's called, is it called five and four? Yeah, I mean, it's compressed hours.
00:44:33
Speaker
compressed hours. Yeah, it's like that day, you've worked all your hours for the week, you've worked them already, you need to protect it. Otherwise, you won't use that day for your MBA or whatever you are doing it for. You know, you have to be really careful. So it's not easy, but it is just true. You just have to say no. Okay, that is a really great point to end on. I think this has been super fun. We should do another one of these again. Yeah, agreed.
00:44:58
Speaker
Quite different, quite like different, you know, the back and forth. Snippy snappy. Interesting. Snippy snappy. Indeed. That's going to go nowhere. The least viral comment ever to be made. Thank you so much for listening. It's been a pleasure to have you. Please do give us five stars or share or whatever it is you're able to do on a platform you've listened to so other people can find us too. Let us know what you think and have a great week. Bye. Bye.
00:45:29
Speaker
you