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S3E5 The Career Coven: Jas Chambers on the Ocean, Good Governance & Taking Your Employer to Court
104 Plays5 days ago
This week’s episode of the Career Coven is an incredible interview episode. We speak to Jas Chambers, who is the President Elect of Science and Technology Australia. Jas is also the chair and co-founder of Ocean Decade Australia. In addition to her formidable professional achievements, Jas is also a mother of three and matriarch of her family unit. In this interview, we discuss what motivates Jas to manage such an impressive personal and professional life.
Listen into this episode if you want to hear more about:
- How Bec and Jas met. and their shared experience in of preventative breast surgery
- The ocean advocacy work Jas does, and why she founded Ocean Decade Australia
- The importance of governance in protecting the Ocean
- The importance of writing things down, and being curious
- How Jas balances her busy work and professional lives
- Jas’s approach to parenthood, with her partner
- Jas’s experience of a legal battle with her former employer
Annie and Bec were both so grateful to have this time with Jas - an incredibly inspiring leader. She is truly formidable, and we learned a lot from this chat. We recommend that you follow Jas’s work via her linkedin.
Enjoying this content? Please rate and subscribe on your preferred platform, and let us know what you think!
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Transcript
Introduction to 'The Career Coven'
00:00:06
Speaker
Hello, it's Bec here from The Career Coven, the podcast for serious careers with unserious chats.
Meet Jazz Chambers: A Key Guest
00:00:12
Speaker
For today's episode, we have a very special guest who Annie and I interview. Our guest is called Jazz Chambers. She is the President-elect of Science Technology Australia.
00:00:22
Speaker
She's a co-founder of Ocean Decade Australia, and she is an all-round superstar human. And we cannot wait for you to listen to this interview. Hello Jazz, it's so nice to have you on the pod.
00:00:35
Speaker
We are absolutely delighted to be learning from you ourselves as well as for our listeners. and We've chosen you as a major interview for season three of the podcast because you're such a standout in our eyes and we have so much to learn from you.
00:00:50
Speaker
So Jazz, you and I know each other but for the benefit of our listeners, can you tell us who you are and what gets you out of bed every day? Well, thank you, Bec and Annie, for having me. It's a real honour and privilege to be here.
Antarctica Expedition Experience
00:01:03
Speaker
So we know each other because we had this extraordinary experience of going to Antarctica together at the end of 2023, which feels like a really long time ago and and yesterday. And that was an extraordinary expedition with about 100 women from around the world. And and so a bit about me, and what gets me out of bed every morning is just, I think,
00:01:25
Speaker
Really making a contribution in whatever way that I can to the things that I care a lot about, the things that I love. What gets me out of bed also is accelerating. I get incredibly frustrated with the pace sometimes of things that just make actually really good sense.
00:01:41
Speaker
So those those are some of the things. And yeah, three kids and and a busy household gets me out of bed. That'll do it. That really, that must get you out of bed. Yeah, that's an imperative thing.
00:01:53
Speaker
We're going to try and not refer to you as the president the whole time through this podcast, but you are the people's president. I'd say I'd pitch you for global president should the role ever exist.
00:02:05
Speaker
So you're president-elect of Science Technology Australia, right?
Roles in Science and Ocean Advocacy
00:02:09
Speaker
That's huge. Yes, correct. Big dog. And you do do lots of work with the UN Ocean Decade Australia too.
00:02:16
Speaker
And so today we're going to be talking a bit about your ocean advocacy and your career path and what it's like to be in a dual career household and how you handle motherhood. Having been at your house and sat at your table with your three gorgeous kids, I cannot say how impressive it is. It's just amazing.
00:02:34
Speaker
And you're also the matriarch in both the professional and personal sense, which is also incredible. So we wanted to talk through today the first time you and I ever met.
00:02:45
Speaker
And we were sat on an airport bus in Argentina. And I said, Hi, I'm Bec. What's your name? Tell me what's going on. And you just said, Yeah, I've just finished a court case of my employer, not waiting for the outcome. i was like, Oh, my gosh.
00:02:59
Speaker
So, yeah, your learnings from that experience. But it was a strong start from jazz well for sure. Yeah, a strong opener there. Yeah, it was. Look, I think the, yes, I'm i'm very lucky to be holding a ah range of roles professionally. i have this role coming up.
00:03:13
Speaker
I'm president-elect at the moment of Science and Technology Australia, which is the peak body for over... 230,000 scientists and technologists around our beautiful country. And the work that we do at STA is around advocacy for science and evidence-based decision making. There's a lot in all of that. The work with the ocean, I founded and I chair an organisation called Ocean Decade Australia, which we set up to put Australia on a path to really make valuable contribution to the United Nations Ocean Decade, which runs from 2021 to 2030. So those are two roles that I have a ah lot of
Bonding Over Breast Cancer Experiences
00:03:53
Speaker
lot of fun with.
00:03:54
Speaker
Incredibly cool. And when we met in Antarctica, something that binds you and I together, mostly for the people on the ship, was that we showed everyone our boobs. That's true. Hold on. Why did that happen? How did that happen?
00:04:07
Speaker
What happened? was So when we did first meet, Bec, I remember this yeah this strange airport bus experience with you. I think we were exhausted. ah flight might have been delayed at that point, I think, and we were just trying to muddle our way onto this ship out of Puerto Madrid in Argentina. And i sat next to this gorgeous woman and who was just curious. And I had just come out of this weird experience, which was a ah very long running legal case around with a previous employer.
00:04:41
Speaker
And immediately we sort of hit it off and I felt like I could just sort of talk to you about that and mention that to you when you ask me, you know, so what do you do? And we we can come back to that.
00:04:53
Speaker
But, yeah, getting our kit off on the boat in Antarctica, I'm trying to remember how that came about, but I actually think it might have also been somewhere along the line on that bus trip where we I don't know what it was I just felt like you were a person yeah who could easily talk to and so when it came to our introductions on the ship we were asked to each give how long was it Beckett minute and a half it was like three minutes or something like absurdly small
00:05:26
Speaker
And breast cancer had played a huge role in my in my life. My mother died of breast cancer when she was 47 years old and a very, very fast diagnosis to to death, which was 17 months.
00:05:39
Speaker
And so she died when I was 19. And I think I'd always known that this might have to be something that I did, which was I i had a um procedure called a DIA. And essentially it was a double mastectomy and reconstruction surgery.
00:05:54
Speaker
And because that had been such a big part of forming, you know, my myself as a result of her death and then sort of the decision making around getting this big surgery done, I mentioned it in my three minute introduction. And i think along the path there, Bec came to me and said, hey, I've had that done too.
00:06:14
Speaker
And i was gobsmacked that someone much younger than me had had done that and and fairly recently. It's been 10 years last Sunday that since I've had the surgery done, the date's always burnt on your brain, the 6th of July, 2015, just before my 20th birthday.
00:06:34
Speaker
and And so, yeah, we connected on that, which, and it's unusual to find people who've had that surgery. And just to be clear, we weren't showing boobs for fun, though some of that might have been involved. I'm joking.
00:06:47
Speaker
But I think that we both really felt quite passionately that it was important for people who might be at risk. You know, so many women are to understand that your boobs can actually look really good after having this surgery.
00:06:59
Speaker
Because all of the pictures in the surgeon's office, certainly for me at least, were like all horror shows from like several decades ago when surgery hadn't come on enough cosmetically. So was like, guys, come and have a look at some great tits.
00:07:12
Speaker
It's going to be fine. We'll talk about our cancer journey. Let's have some wine. yeah I'd say that's what binds me and Jazz together in particular. It's seared in the minds of probably the rest of our shipmates for sure. But it's been and absolute pleasure.
00:07:26
Speaker
It has been a pleasure. And well, I think that's right, Bec. As high-minded as you want to think you are about many of these you know decisions that you make, particularly around medicine, but you know your medical histories and so forth.
00:07:38
Speaker
One of the things that really did play on my mind as I was preparing for this surgery was how I was going to look. you know Would I still be attractive to myself, ah to my my husband, ti to other people as well? and And so showing my boobs has become part of the story to anyone who wants to see them really well within limits who'd like to know on. what that looks like. And so i have did it over the weekend with a number of people who were asking. Again, there's usually some wine involved, mostly for them, because I'm not nervous about it.
00:08:14
Speaker
And I think it's really important to know that you can have a good aesthetic outcome. And I know that this, that disease, you know, you know, good get hit by a bus, but I'm not going to die of breast cancer.
00:08:28
Speaker
And that was important to me as a parent, as a partner, to know that i could I could do something about that. And that was about taking data and science and projections and using it personally. like Yeah, well, thank you for that. I think it's such an important message and it's such a such a great thing to talk about. And I'm so disappointed that Becca's never shown me her boobs.
00:08:51
Speaker
I mean, ah feel like you guys have crossed a friendship boundary that that we have not yet crossed. So that's one that that's on the...
Ocean Advocacy and UN Conference Involvement
00:08:59
Speaker
wedding list beck you'll have to do it before the day before my wedding perfect so that I don't feel so left out but yeah so so jazz should we move into starting to talk about your your amazing career and and some of the ocean advocacy work that you do so we know that you're just back from France traveling to the UN conference we'd love to know a little bit about the work you were doing there and your role your role thank you
00:09:22
Speaker
So look, yes, the the ocean advocacy work is is deeply, pun, so many ocean puns, but it's really deeply important to me. It's something I did train in marine science a long time ago and it it did drive me to get on the ship with Beck to Antarctica to understand that really wild and exceptional place.
00:09:45
Speaker
Where and our organisation really came from, though, was a number of years ago, I'd started in a role where I had to represent Australia on Oceans to a commission called the UNESCO Intergovernmental Oceanographic Commission, the IOC, not to be confused with the International Olympic Committee, which I would have absolutely no qualification to be on.
00:10:07
Speaker
That's definitely the last Australian you'd want to ask out. But the IOC is a technical commission. It looks at, you know, what do we need scientifically and technically to observe the ocean and so forth. And it kind of, you know, creates the rules and the guidance, if you like, around that.
00:10:23
Speaker
As I was preparing to take on that role, I did remember back, not shortly after, my marine science training that Australia had released an oceans policy in 1998. So I thought I'd better go and check. This is 2018 that I was looking at I thought I'd better go and look at what where that policy is up to. And I googled it and the same document from 1998 came up.
00:10:47
Speaker
And I thought, wow, we are 20 years on. Surely this isn't what we're using the moment. So I rang around a few people. It turned out, you know, some of the stuff that was in the policy recommendations had been implemented and then it had really actually sort of stalled.
00:11:03
Speaker
And we wanted ah the co-founders amongst us sort of could see this United Nations Ocean Decade being set up. And we wanted to use that mechanism to actually restart the conversation about Australia's ocean governance because was it wasn't going anywhere. the So we started the organization 2021. We're five years into it Our role is very much as an advocacy body. We look to be a trusted partner to government as well as to connect ocean stakeholders.
00:11:34
Speaker
And if there's one thing that I would say about ocean governance is you have to actually talk to all the users of ocean. And at the moment, it's ah they're very siloed conversations.
00:11:45
Speaker
And that is the opportunity of the ocean decade. You've got and gas, you have ocean offshore wind opponents, we've got fishing and food, you've got Defence and Navy, you've got all these different groups who all go to their own conference and they all talk about how much they all care about the ocean and, you know, want to use it.
00:12:05
Speaker
But that cross sector conversation is, you know, really where we're at. So that's what we spend a lot of time on. That's super interesting. And I guess, personally, what was it that drew you to ocean advocacy and yeah, brought that particular topic into sharp focus for you. I it was the, there seemed to be no good reasons why things were stalled, why we weren't moving forward, why we weren't having the conversations.
00:12:33
Speaker
about because the the issue for ocean, people will have heard of the tragedy of the commons. It's very much that issue. And when it comes to ocean, it's ubiquitous. And yet we really only think about our individual use of it and accelerating decision-making where you actually do need to get different groups into the room who often are at odds with each other through, I think, often no reason other than actually not knowing much about what And that certainly was one of the things right at the beginning of our consultation was there was this mistrust across different users. But it wasn't like they'd sat down and had long conversations with each other. Some of it was, you know, often just they read or assumed kind of opinions and stance.
00:13:19
Speaker
And I i guess I've never, you know, felt like we couldn't talk something out. It might take a long time. We might need patience. You do need good governance mechanisms to make that happen. But it was probably frustration at that, that really, you know, pushed us into creating an organisation where we create platforms for the hard conversations. And let's face it, they are hard, you know, you can't do everything in the same space in the ocean.
00:13:48
Speaker
But if you can understand how to share the space and use it without using it up, that's what we spend time on. So, so really, it's about, you know, how do you develop and use it sustainably. We're not going to stop using the ocean.
00:14:03
Speaker
there's There's no chance of that. But if we can understand why and the motivations of each other, maybe we can, you know, figure out how to be good neighbours. That's really with where this is at and that's about trust.
00:14:14
Speaker
Yeah, it makes sense. And I mean, how do you stay hopeful and motivated when the scale of the challenge with the environment is is so vast?
00:14:27
Speaker
You know, what are the things that kind of keep you keep you moving, so speak? It's a really great question. It's one that I contemplate often in an airport, particularly when you're flying over a our beautiful planet. These days I reserve my crying for for that as I look out the window because it it you know working in this space does take a toll on people.
00:14:52
Speaker
ah think there's I wouldn't describe what we do as activism, but I have read that activists, you know they they're very conscious of burning out within sort of five years. And so you do need to be really aware of of that.
00:15:05
Speaker
For me, keeping the positivity going and keeping hopeful has always, for me, come down to governance. As weird and boring as that sounds, I'm a huge governance nerd, but we are an incredible species and we have figured out ways of organising ourselves so that we can but can create the rules to make things work.
00:15:29
Speaker
work And so those that that's probably what I return to is really looking at if we if we want to get to a good outcome and we want to understand what success looks like. What are the rules that we need to put in place in order to make that happen?
00:15:43
Speaker
And so that's probably what drives me, which I know sounds really um sort of it strange and nerdy, but that that's definitely where it's at for me because you can always work on governance.
00:15:57
Speaker
You can always be reiterating that and making it better. Yeah, that's so fascinating. And I guess like, really empowering, actually, to think about how we can and we have and we do actually set the rules.
00:16:10
Speaker
And if you, yeah, if you know that, and you keep that front and centre, I can see how that that would, yeah, drive hope and optimism. But it definitely jazz wasn't what I expected you to say.
00:16:20
Speaker
who Yes, you're probably right. I mean, i yeah I did learn to scuba dive at an early age. I was ah was fortunate to to do that. um My mother was Tongan and so I was taken to the Pacific Islands a lot as as a young person. we We weren't allowed to swim much. my Many of my cousins didn't know how to swim.
00:16:40
Speaker
and And in fact, I think that lens of ocean, as an Australian, you spend most of your time going to the beach if you can and getting in the water. As a Tongan, there's a lot to be fearful.
00:16:51
Speaker
about the ocean. And so it was, it always fascinated me that people didn't, you know, who were surrounded by water. My family there didn't know how to swim. and And I was driven to really find out about what it was like under the water after a conversation with my Australian grandfather.
00:17:08
Speaker
and where he was, we were looking at the ocean one day, we were at Cronulla Beach in Sydney. And I said to him, what's out there? And he said, I don't know, but imagine if you emptied it.
00:17:23
Speaker
And so it just held this fascination. I think I was about nine or 10 when he said that. And I just, and and he said, what in what what I do know is that we're standing on top of a mountain. And that just blew my mind. You know, Cronulla Beach, we're standing on top of a mountain. What are you talking about?
00:17:38
Speaker
And so learning, to scuba dive and going under the water. There is something really does physically shift when you do that and, but you know, it's cool, you are immersed, there's no distractions from what you're doing because you have to pay attention.
00:17:56
Speaker
But that visceral feeling as well, of course, is part of probably more likely what you thought I was going to talk about. But but I have to pair that with the reality of living in a world where,
00:18:08
Speaker
you know, not enough is happening fast enough. And what annoys me about that is it's literally four conversations away. It's about how do you have good conversations? That's governance.
00:18:20
Speaker
Yeah, so super interesting. Okay, so as we briefly spoke about in our intro chat to you, Jazz, like lots of our listeners are sort of on the progression ladder and like looking to maybe take their first leadership role or step into a leadership role.
00:18:37
Speaker
you are often leading like big global initiatives. How do you approach kind of staying calm, clear when leading under pressure? And what are any sort of tips and tricks you might have for us about that?
00:18:52
Speaker
Yeah.
Leadership and Personal Insights
00:18:53
Speaker
So I've always been a fan of writing it down as a starting point. I think that if you've got an idea about what it is that you want to achieve, you need to write it down.
00:19:04
Speaker
And writing for me, is the only way to bring clarity to that process. And writing doesn't have to be, I'm not talking about essays necessarily. I myself have to do lots of pictures and there's, I mean, there's just a constant, you know, i i have rolls of brown paper and I will draw pictures of what it is that that I want to get done. I once got a building funded by, you know, drawing a big picture of what I wanted and the steps along the $100 million dollar building. That was quite ah a good picture. And that tends to be, if you haven't written it down, it doesn't, it can exist in your mind.
00:19:43
Speaker
but it needs to be on paper. So that's the first thing I think you need to do. And then you might need to start socialising that because you can't do any of this alone and you need other people to start drawing on the drawing and writing into the the paper.
00:19:57
Speaker
So for me, it's always been about writing it down and And I remember the first job, proper job you know, kind of had had was an event that I got asked to organise. I think I was like 21 years old and it was a summer school for year 10 students. So people who were like six years younger than me at the time.
00:20:16
Speaker
And I remember sort of writing this plan. And then when the plan happened, and it turned into this three-day event, i I had this epiphany which was, wow, you can write down a thing and then it becomes a thing.
00:20:31
Speaker
And that that was sort of this early realisation about writing it down. I also had a boss who said to me early on, who asked me to come and take some notes at at this meeting. And as we were going into the meeting, and i you know I didn't have tickets on myself about writing notes, I was happy to come and write the notes at this meeting.
00:20:51
Speaker
But he did say to me, you do know that when you hold the pen, you are recording what happens. in in this space. And that struck me as incredibly powerful as well. So when it comes to, you know, clarifying your thoughts, if you are going to lead, writing is is number one.
00:21:12
Speaker
And then number two, obviously, yeah you've got to include people in that. Leadership is not something that you do on your own. That can be maybe management, but leadership is about bringing other people with you and in empowering their leadership too.
00:21:27
Speaker
There's lots lots I could say here, but so those are the first things that jump to mind. Lovely. This is quite a good segue into the next bit that we wanted to talk about. You have a big career, Jazz.
00:21:38
Speaker
I think a while back you were of a branch of a university and you've had an incredible pace of career and you've managed that in a household with a gorgeous husband who you've been married to for a very long time and have raised three beautiful children. And I think, but certainly looking from the outside, that there's something really remarkable and extraordinary to say about that achievement and that you have healthy family relationships and a healthy marriage and gorgeous rounded children and two amazing careers. So can you just unpack that for us a bit?
00:22:09
Speaker
How does it happen? Yeah. If I was looking at it, I'd think it'd look great too, but I'm in it. So the reality is you've got to make some strategic decisions about how important work and career is to you and that particularly when you hook up with someone, you're going to spend the rest of your time with them outside of work, making it really clear about why that's important to you is probably been one of the the key things in my my marriage, in my family, is is understanding that.
00:22:42
Speaker
And that comes from parents who demonstrated a deep love of work who who worked together at the dining room table every night. That's not a and normal thing necessarily to observe as children, but but that's what we saw, me and my siblings.
00:23:01
Speaker
And all of us have a real drive around contribution through work to our community, to our family, to the things that we care about. So I think that's probably one of the most important things that I've I've sort of gleaned is being clear about, with particularly with a partner, about work and what it means to you. And that is something you revisit over and over again because you can make a lot of assumptions about yourself, about your partner.
00:23:29
Speaker
There'll be a lot of assumptions and expectations of other people, you know, parents, parents-in-law, aunts and uncles sort of think that they, you know, need to weigh in on what your career might look like and the balance of that.
00:23:42
Speaker
I've never been a great fan of the idea of trying to balance life and work because I just think work is part of life. And that is sort of the way that that i was I was raised. it was very much, you know, just and it was all part of the same thing. so For me, that's really critical.
00:24:01
Speaker
I think in choosing a partner who is going to so support your career, you need to be each other's greatest cheerleaders. That's the bottom line when it comes to to this stuff. And there is a famous quote, I think it was Quinton Bryce, who was Governor General of Australia, but she was also the principal of the Women's College at the University of Sydney. And I think there was, i did hear her say this in a speech one time, which was, you can have it all, just maybe not at all at the same time.
00:24:30
Speaker
And, and I i think that's true. There are times when you need to be just muddling through and there are times, but that then that doesn't mean that that's not being strategic.
00:24:40
Speaker
Sometimes you've just got to, you know, get the kids off, get the dinner dinners done together, separately, whatever it is, get the car sorted out and get to work and be effective. So So I think that there's there's something about about that.
00:24:56
Speaker
And having ongoing conversations about what you want out of work with your partner, I cannot emphasise I think how important that is because you're doing this thing together, they're going to get busy, there's a certain like weird lump that where it all happens at once.
00:25:14
Speaker
The marriage, the babies and the career takes off at the same time, as does, you know, an enormous mortgage you know, wanting, needing to buy a new car or whatever.
00:25:26
Speaker
And that lumpiness to navigate that means understanding each other really well um and what it is you want to achieve professionally and and for the family. So I'd say that around managing that with my own career trajectory, I was the general manager of a large part of a university. It was not the whole university, but I was on so many committees. Goodness, it it was crazy. That was a very intense job.
00:25:51
Speaker
I probably, and I loved it. I really enjoyed it. I did that role for seven years. Prior to that, I managed many other teams and sort of always worked in external and in international engagement type work, always in science and technology. And During that time, we made a decision around childcare. So my eldest child is 19 this year.
00:26:14
Speaker
And i remember childcare was incredibly expensive relative to pay packet at the time. And I had a lot of friends who were sort of like, is it worth it? You know, sort of staying working just to pay for childcare.
00:26:29
Speaker
None of that has changed. If anything, you know, childcare is is still incredibly expensive. And, but we, we made the decision that we, we needed to do that. My kids were there early.
00:26:40
Speaker
They were there from 7am to 6pm. They were the first kids to be dropped off and the last kids often to be picked up. You can feel guilty about that, or you can feel really good about work and, you know, managing the juggle and, you know,
00:26:53
Speaker
making sure that you've got good time with them when you do. The other thing we prioritised was someone else cleaning our house. don't want to do that. And I want to say my weekend is doing that and there are people who are far more efficient and professional at it than me. So making some key investments.
00:27:10
Speaker
in these sorts of things, I think, but were important to, you know, and and they were expensive. You've got to make that decision. But with making those investments means you get to keep working, means you get to climb the poll and the and the salary levels until it can it kind kind of even out. so that's, and you need to be thoughtful and strategic about that. That's not something you just fall into. That's thoughtful planning with a partner as well as paying attention to where kids are up to.
00:27:43
Speaker
And ah look, it's lovely to think that you think my kids are rounded, Bec. I think they're pretty good. They're good eggs. I mean, like you hosted a dinner party and they were with a bunch of people they'd never met before.
00:27:56
Speaker
And they came around and sat and like served us drinks. I don't know how you train them to do that. But then also just sat and chatted with us in a totally normal way. And i was like, these kids are amazing. i don't think I would have done that at any of their ages.
00:28:09
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. I mean, look, that that was, ah again, that was the way I was raised. Our parents expected us to kind of sit with visitors. And so, yeah, I guess my kids are experiencing that as well. And and they have been exposed to lots of adult conversations.
00:28:23
Speaker
and And that's all also in an effort for them to understand why we spend as much time as we do in work and the value of work and the value work. purpose.
00:28:35
Speaker
I think that there's nothing, you guys know, there's nothing better than pulling that thing off at work and just going, oh my God, we did that, you know, team, we got that bit done and, you know, and and the celebration around that. It's a great feeling.
00:28:49
Speaker
I love that. And you and your partner, let's not pretend there won't have been moments of kind of tension or conflict or anything else amongst that period. So how do you go about managing that with your partner when you both have really big jobs that might already be a kind of conflict in in either career currently? How do you kind of keep your head above the water with each other and manage that?
Balancing Career and Family
00:29:11
Speaker
Yeah. So there's a couple of things here. Again, strategic decisions about where you're going to invest. So we have always invested in going away together.
00:29:22
Speaker
i think just the two of us, I think that is really critical because in the day-to-day, you are not thinking about, you know, the next thing, the next thing you want to tackle as a family or as a couple or what have you, or the next trip you might want to take or, or you know,
00:29:38
Speaker
what's going to happen with your parents or, you know, how are we going to manage such and such as wedding? Because, you know, there's three things on that day. So getting away together ah couple of times a year has been something we have always done.
00:29:51
Speaker
And I highly end it You probably, my recommendation is three to four nights because you sort of have that first night, which is really nice. Then the second night, you know, you kind of need to tackle some of the conflicts and you don't want to leave the next day. You need the third or the fourth night to push it off well.
00:30:11
Speaker
And so so that's important. And that doesn't have to be crazy fancy. Like, you know, you just need to get in a car and drive away somewhere and figure out where to leave the kids for the weekend.
00:30:22
Speaker
The other thing that we invested in and which was important to me at a certain point in my kids, in raising our kids, was a person who became both their carer and a I think I can say this still, she became my wife.
00:30:44
Speaker
and I was hoping you would say this. Yeah, well, it's just the the truth of it. And I realised if I wanted to have a career the way that I wanted to have a career,
00:30:55
Speaker
I needed a wife and and that has been extraordinary. This person's been with us now for 13 years, almost 14, and it it has been life-changing to have that person with us.
00:31:09
Speaker
She is absolutely part of the family but, of course, there are boundaries in all of that. There's incredible trust, there's flexibility and, and again, there's good governance. you know You've got to get and get in front of that and and think about the way in which you're If you're going to spend, you know, but trust someone with your children, how, you know, what the value alignment is, cetera.
00:31:30
Speaker
values alignment and so forth. So that's been incredible and I recognise the deep privilege of that. It also though i think speaks to something that I would observe in my Tongan family which is multi-generational sort of you know caring that does occur in different cultures to often our western style culture. which is having other people around to to assist with child raising and rearing. and
00:32:01
Speaker
And for us, I think that that's been very, very helpful. So if you have the opportunity to invest in that as well as that person, because I think that I can safely say after 13, 14 years, there's deep love there and a knowledge that we will always be in one another's lives. I think that that is an incredible thing to be able to do.
00:32:24
Speaker
So yes, that's been very important to us. the Here's the really good bits. When the children were younger, she would arrive at 7am and we would often get off to work at about 7.30, she'd but she Yeah, to their breakfasts were done and they were taken to school and that was done.
00:32:42
Speaker
The pickup after school, the homework, because that is an enormous amount of of time. We would get involved in some of the homework, but she would keep, you know, that all very organised, good routines with kids. She made their dinners four nights a week and here's the absolute, the one that drove me crazy.
00:33:03
Speaker
She made the lunches. I cannot tell you. I can't stand making lunches, school lunches. And made the lunches. So because like the last thing that you think about at around 11 o'clock at night, you go, oh, my God, the kid doesn't have lunch. So that has been amazing. The children now know how to make their own lunch, which, again, she taught them that.
00:33:23
Speaker
And and i think that allowed Nick and I and my partner and i enormous freedom and time together as well. and And yeah, I don't think our kids, I think they're ah pretty well off for that experience.
00:33:39
Speaker
They're awesome. They're the coolest kids ever. I could only hope to have such cool children as yours. And it really shows the way that you have invested your time sort of paid dividends in in your family culture as well. It's really lovely to see and that you and Nick both openly prioritise your careers as well as saying that's important to me as well as all of you, of course.
00:33:57
Speaker
So I think I also would say, is it fair to say those kind of investments as a kind of outsourcing of the mental load in parenthood? Oh, there's so there's so much to think about in parenthood. And you go from childcare where, you know, as I mentioned earlier, my kids were the first there and the last to be picked up.
00:34:18
Speaker
And extraordinary carers that we had at the childcare centre that they went to. But when you hit school, It always amazed me, you know, how how much investment the school expected out of the parents. And that, and I'm still amazed by that, I i went to boarding school. So my parents weren't involved in my school life or school career very much. So it surprised me when I was suddenly expected to to get so involved the school. school life. Having said that, it's a very rich culture that is fantastic. and and And I encourage people to get involved in the sport and all the rest.
00:34:50
Speaker
But when you are having a busy career, your partner is also heavily engaged in work. You are both probably travelling quite a bit. There is ah a lot to to think about. And I really wanted to focus when I was with my kids on the things that I could most helpfully teach them about. And that was, you know, our cultures. It was, you know, science for me, why the planet is the way it is, why it works the way that it does and and travel as well and and getting them to see see the world as much as as we could at the time.
00:35:24
Speaker
And a lot of that was Australia, you know, understanding our country and having some extraordinary, extraordinary trips, particularly to the top end, to the Northern Territory. We've been very lucky to to have those experiences too as a family. So I think, yeah, making some decisions about, you know, what you want to do with your kids is important in all of that. And I really do think of all of that, but everything we've just talked about as being thoughtful about your investment structure in your family, in your life and your career.
00:35:54
Speaker
Love that. this This might be a good time to move on, Annie, on the topic of family culture to one of the most fascinating topics, I think. Yeah, absolutely. We'd love to talk to you about being the matriarch in both your family and the professional world. Yeah, what does that role mean to you and how does it show up in your in your life, Jas? So...
00:36:16
Speaker
Matriarchy in, i mean, I have been raised by incredibly strong women matriarchs. Having said that, very strong male role models as well. My father was an extraordinary, extraordinary human. He died five years ago.
00:36:33
Speaker
and And he really interestingly sort of took on this. He had to after our mother died, took on both the mothering and the fathering role. Probably the poor guy, when I think back on it, actually, the things that I told him as a young woman are things that no father probably ever wants their daughter to tell them about. I had no one else to tell this stuff to. So I did. Yeah. Oh, God. i think back on it now. And I think, God, Kev, you really handled that quite well.
00:37:01
Speaker
But the matriarchal role in Tongan culture, as an example, is is something that you learn about as you're growing up. Women, you know, sort of use a matriarchal society and women are held in in high regard.
00:37:16
Speaker
And that... has always been very important to me to to demonstrate that to my family and my my children. I have two daughters and and what that means in terms of responsibility for family, for community and so forth, which to be honest has been a lot about listening more than anything.
00:37:40
Speaker
and understanding from those who have come before us, you know, what are the lessons and what are the ways and and then being able to pass that on what what you can.
00:37:51
Speaker
so So family-wise, that's been a big thing. Because my mother died so young, I did have to take on something of a parenting role as well, which my siblings might really protest with respect to how I did that and what that looked like at the time. And and believe me, that was certainly a muddling through period for me and my dad, where I would say there was high expectation of what that role would look like.
00:38:19
Speaker
And I didn't always meet the challenge brilliantly, but I tried to show up as much as as I could through all of that. And I learned a lot about the way I did and didn't want a parent through that experience as well. But, you know, before I was 25, I'd done six years of, you know, rugby, you know, taking my brother to his rugby.
00:38:41
Speaker
was, you know, we started off kind of like me learning about rugby when he was in year seven. And by year 10, he and his teammates would sort of get in the car and they'd have this G-Up tape that they'd put on and and, you know, I was instructed that I wasn't allowed to actually talk. i did We just had to listen to, you know, rugby anthems as we, you know, as they sort of geared up to go and play rugby.
00:39:01
Speaker
Yeah, the G-Uptay. So I think that was informative to me around, you know, what it meant, the great privilege you have as a parent and an elder as before I became a parent myself.
00:39:16
Speaker
So there's there's that element. I'm not sure what you mean by matriarch in the in the sense of work. i The global president, okay. Yeah. Yeah, I love me. You're the president. I am the global president. the president. You should be the global president. When are we making that role? Let's write it down.
00:39:32
Speaker
Okay. okay Yeah, let's write the plan. yeah it Get it down. So, yeah, taking on, I guess, leadership roles in work as well. And because I have don't have these boundaries and between work and and life, I certainly have brought, I would say, myself,
00:39:54
Speaker
and
Authenticity and Solitude in Work Life
00:39:55
Speaker
my ways into work, probably sometimes early in my career against advice or, you know, Yeah, i would repeat against traditional law. You're a bit too much or too whatever or too sherry or whatever.
00:40:10
Speaker
And to that, again, I guess I just don't have time for that, you know. I just don't think i don't think any of us have got time for that. And there is this interesting thing. I've been thinking about this a bit and I was thinking about writing something about it where when I think there is something that happens when you're, when you're have great loss at an early age and you suddenly in this club knowledge
00:40:42
Speaker
knowledge around what's really, you know, just the worst thing that can happen to you as as a young person is to lose ah a parent probably. and But with that comes some feeling, like certainly I had this, of invincibility where it was like, okay, I've been to the bottom.
00:41:01
Speaker
Like I don't know how much badder it can get than that and it makes you a bit nervous impatient perhaps for for things to happen, which is possibly what's been a bit of a driver around some of the things that that I've done, until you have your own child and then you get transported right back to being incredibly vulnerable at the notion of loss again i in a very different way.
00:41:29
Speaker
And they're not that's in the natural order of things. You know, losing a parent is in the natural order, et cetera. So I think that I've never really had time for those boundaries, you know, just come to work, write it down, let's get it done, and then we can make the next plan.
00:41:46
Speaker
and And all the strong women I know, the matriarchs I have known, it's always been about that, like, Yeah. All right. We did that.
00:41:57
Speaker
It sounds so simple. Yeah. Jazz, when you say it like that, it sounds just so straightforward for everyone. But and I think we all we all know it's we all know it's not. but But yeah, it's it's nice to hear that you kind of bring your full self to work. I think that's something that Beck and I talk a lot about. It's like, you know, do you have a professional self and then a personal self or are you just kind of person?
00:42:19
Speaker
one individual in all aspects of your life. And I think both of us are very much more on the side of we take our full selves to work. And yeah, that might that might sometimes mean that people think we care a bit too much or something like that, but I'd rather err on that side then um than the opposite. and Okay, so...
00:42:38
Speaker
Obviously, you hold a lot of roles ah across your life, as do many women. How do you balance being the holder of space for other people whilst kind of protecting your own energy and preserving your own kind of mental health and and well-being? Another great question. So I think, I mean, i i get an enormous amount of energy from people speaking to people. You know, this is, i think early on, I realised that I could hold a lot of information in my head. I wasn't really book smart.
00:43:16
Speaker
That wasn't what I was really good. My my brother and sister, very book smart, much more intelligent than me in that way. But I could hold on to lots of memories and lots of thinking in my head.
00:43:28
Speaker
And so talking to other people. And as I said, you know, we were raised with a lot of, our parents were very social. They would bring people over.
00:43:38
Speaker
They'd often bring, you know, their friends and then their friends' parents as well. And while they were talking to their friends, I'd end up talking to the the friend's parents. So I spent a lot of time with old people as a kid and there was always an interesting backstory. And I think that that has always fascinated me is just actually understanding that, that, ah you know, what, where people have come from and then sort of putting that into the context of my own experience of, of life. So i don't find it draining to talk to people. I find it very helpful to sort of test my thinking and so forth. In terms of where I reserve space for myself, I i really do like to be alone as well. oh that is, it might seem like I'm really alone, but I do need to go and and carve that out for myself.
00:44:26
Speaker
I was an early adopter of, you know, taking myself off for a massage or So I've always prioritised that and and learnt massage, and you know, when when I was at uni and so forth. So I've always had that.
00:44:41
Speaker
And I think also... ocean. You know, whenever I found myself sort of needing space, I would go to water. And I grew up on a river, actually, on the Murray River. And and so the river and the ocean are both places that i I like to physically spend time. And you look, you do have to carve that out. It's not always not always possible.
00:45:04
Speaker
But I think you know when you need it. If you're listening to yourself, you know when you need it. And um and you just, you've got to schedule it. You've got to be organised. I I think, you know, being organised and I think I'm naturally organised was important and while that might look like lots of schedules on the wall and lots of calendars and what have you, if you need, if you want space and time, you've got to create it.
00:45:29
Speaker
that's That's the bottom line. So, yeah, get your post-it notes out and your wall planner and schedule schedule time for yourself. It's great advice. Very, very practical. I think I could certainly do with taking that advice. Yes, you must.
00:45:45
Speaker
And the other thing I've never understood is why people feel guilty about going and getting like a massage or having a day themselves or something like that. I think that's the other. I don't really understand guilt.
00:45:56
Speaker
And that that might be something you can talk to another guest about because I don't know a lot of it. I'm feeling guilty about something. There's plenty of things I might might wish I'd done differently. But, yeah, that's that's probably a big part of it as well. Let that go.
00:46:12
Speaker
have time. Good advice. Awesome. Let's transport ourselves back to the Argentina bus now, Jazz. The Argentina airport bus. Much has happened in the time preceding and following the airport bus.
00:46:25
Speaker
And it's been such a beautiful period of friendship.
Legal Case and Governance
00:46:29
Speaker
One of the really big things that's happened in that period of friendship is you winning the case against your previous employer.
00:46:37
Speaker
So in whatever amount of detail that you feel comfortable with, I know there will be things that you definitely can't or don't want to say and we don't want you to kind of cross any of those lines. But thank you for trusting us with this conversation.
00:46:49
Speaker
we would just love a walkthrough at a high level what you're kind of comfortable talking about. Of course. Thanks, Bec. And so, yes, i I did take a legal case against a previous employer.
00:47:01
Speaker
And i think the first thing that I'd say about the case is that it wasn't a very interesting case. at all, which is what I think is interesting about it. It was a ah pretty ordinary kind of topic and it was a case around unfair dismissal And really pedestrian happens all the time.
00:47:27
Speaker
and And partly that's what made me so determined about it was i was sort of, you know, ah just thought, wow, how is this happening to me? i thought I was a really good performer.
00:47:40
Speaker
And all of a sudden I'm being told something that i'm I'm struggling to understand, which was that I was underperforming in my role. And so Early on in that journey and before you take a legal case, there's there's a lot of stuff that can happen before you go down that path. That's what I'd say to your listeners.
00:47:59
Speaker
You know, there's there's all sorts of things that you you should be thinking about and utilising before you make that decision because it is ah it's a huge decision to do a legal case.
00:48:11
Speaker
And in my case, I was i am pleased that I won my case. much Huge, huge deal. Yeah, yeah. It was covered in ah the Australian national press and there were these iconic pictures of jazz with red lipstick on looking just absolutely fabulous.
00:48:31
Speaker
Yeah, well, fashion important in these things, you know, ah in terms of, yeah, i mean, I always feel better when I, I think it was the same during COVID. You know, I got up every day during COVID and put red lipstick on. That was really important to me.
00:48:44
Speaker
And so, of course, I wore red lipstick during the case. but There's a couple of things that i i think anyone who maybe is feeling this way in work and can be thinking about. so and And for me, this is really about protecting myself and my reputation where I ah had this sense that I was being targeted.
00:49:04
Speaker
And the first thing on that is trust your instincts. I think we all know that feeling when something isn't quite right, whether it's at work or not. You you know when something's a bit off.
00:49:15
Speaker
and you know If you've got that sense, trust it. See if you can validate it without turning it into, you know, a you know, creating actual concerns or being overly paranoid about it. But ah but do trust that.
00:49:32
Speaker
And then understand your rights at work. And, you know, who are the decision makers who are involved in this? You know, what does my contract actually say? You know, it's been a while since I signed that. And then I guess full circle back to governance, understand the governance of your organisations.
00:49:51
Speaker
the mechanisms and the tools that are available to you, whether that's your contract or an enterprise agreement or policies and procedures. I think that that's really critical right up the front where we feel like something's not quite right. So as I said, i was told that I was underperforming. I was struggling to understand where that was. I wasn't being told. I was keen to understand you know, where, where am I underperforming? Please tell me specifically. And, and you need to be told specifically about that. I myself have taken staff through many changes over the years and yeah, being specific, making sure that things that people can do are actionable and in their control is really critical. And I, I didn't feel like I was getting that kind of feedback.
00:50:36
Speaker
So So that's the that's the starting point is is really understanding all of that. But if you think you're at a point where you'll need legal advice, seek that out and tell them everything, the good, the bad, the rest. um That's the only way that your advocates can come up with the right way to represent you and to understand your story.
00:50:57
Speaker
And I was fortunate to have extraordinary advice through this case. If you reach a point where you decide to then take action and legal action, i think there's something in that around being really clear-eyed about why you want to do that. And in the end, only you can articulate that for yourself. Your partner cannot, your partner best friend can't, your parents can't, you know, you really need to be really clear about why you want to do take a case, if that's where you're going, because it will take enormous energy to sustain that.
00:51:37
Speaker
And in my case, it was five years. And that really came, became very important later on, Because I kept returning to surprise, surprise, something I'd written down about why I was doing what I was doing.
00:51:52
Speaker
and And you need enormous discipline to to continue to to go there and understand the purpose around why you would do continue doing that. You've got to really understand the risks and potential outcomes. That's what lawyers are for as well.
00:52:08
Speaker
And consider the impacts on not just you, your reputation, of course, but also your family, your friends, and your broader professional network. And there there did come a time where I was ringing people and saying, look,
00:52:20
Speaker
I just need you to know this is what's happening to me and if you need to dissociate and from me for a period, then I will understand that. No one ever, whoever I rang, said, yeah, we need to distance ourselves from you, Jaz. In fact, I think that really...
00:52:38
Speaker
built a lot of trust with people that I told them about the case and what I could at the time. And and so, but do be thoughtful about that. And that's really work that is around threading the needle on, you know,
00:52:54
Speaker
why, how, and what's the impacts on people. And your health will be impacted by this. So that's why you need to keep going back to that second point that I made around being really clear-eyed about why and making sure it's worth it.
00:53:08
Speaker
To be clear to the listeners, I would do it again. i would do the case again if this happened to me. There's always different things you could have tried, but I think in my case, so I really had to do it.
00:53:22
Speaker
And it became important that The case itself existed because at the beginning of my legal case, when we when we went looking for case law that was similar, there was very few cases that you could find, that my my team could find, that we could refer to. so it actually became quite important to me that We pursue it so that there was a case that people could use in future and that's now what exists, which is great. I also refused to sign refused. I just said, no, I won't sign a non-disclosure agreement. and My story is my story and I don't want anyone else to tell me that I can't tell that story. So that's why I can talk about it here with you. And of course, you know, the other side can tell their story as well if they wish to. But that was important to me as well. So like, what are the deep reasons why, why you would do this? Return to that all the time.
00:54:14
Speaker
I think the other... thing to really acknowledge here is that I had a set of circumstances that made this possible for me. ah it wasn't easy, but certainly my circumstances were really important around this. So a lot of things in my favour had been, you know, having had a lot of management experience myself, i I knew about, you know, enterprise agreements, I knew about governance, I knew about decision making and, you know, delegates and how that all worked. I have lawyers in my family, who were able to provide a lot of great guidance and advice. I'm well educated.
00:54:51
Speaker
You know, there's there's nothing that I think can replace just being, you know, having that prioritised and invested in being well educated when it comes to this sort of thing and and that diligence around writing.
00:55:04
Speaker
And finally, i had ah partner willing to go with me in every respect, and financial, emotional and all the rest. It took a huge toll on him as well, but I could not have done it without him being fully there. And as I said earlier, my greatest cheerleader in the entire endeavour. And whenever I talked about the case and when I still talk about the case, i I often say we because it dominated five years of our life and that it was very much a wee thing.
00:55:37
Speaker
Having said that, every time you come up to ah decision gate, it is you who walks through that gate and only you. You are the person who will be in the stand.
00:55:49
Speaker
You are the person who has to answer the questions, aggressive or not. You are the person that they want to take a photo of for the paper. And so, yeah, it you can have your person beside you It's a bit like, you know, having a baby, you know,
00:56:05
Speaker
In the end, only you can push it out. So it's the same thing, you know, that it would be great if everyone else could help you. But but in the end, you are the person who walks through the gate. I mean, such an extraordinary experience. And thank you for being so generous and in sharing those insights.
00:56:20
Speaker
I think one of the things that really struck me, and I only knew you right at the end of that process, when the case had more or less finished, we were kind of waiting for the outcome. And that was a really tense period. What struck me from hearing you speak about it was just quite how long it all took, how procedural it all was, and these huge time gaps between something happening and the next thing happening. So Do you have any kind of advice or insight that you can share about what was unexpected for you in this process for the listeners?
00:56:51
Speaker
I'm just thinking, you know, if a listener is listening, thinking I'm weighing up doing this. Is there anything you think they should know that is not kind of obvious from the outset? Yeah, I mean, I think.
00:57:03
Speaker
I think you've hit the nail on the head in terms of timeframes. i At the start, I didn't know how long it would take. If someone had said five years, I would have just gone, you're crazy. Like, you know, this is surely we can get through this a bit faster.
00:57:18
Speaker
But the mechanisms of the law are available to both sides. So both sides can, you know, take their time, you know, using every mechanism they can. and And so time is a big part of it. That can really grind you down, which is why you are doing this.
00:57:39
Speaker
You need to be doing something else alongside it. It can't be the only thing that you're doing. um It certainly was like having another job. it was It was huge. And when things were on, they were on. You really had to be focused and available and thinking hard about the case.
00:57:56
Speaker
But That's probably a key part. Another part of it which made it both helpful but also and and and I think ultimately did lead to the outcome is that I wrote everything down.
00:58:14
Speaker
This is a natural thing from, you know, that early employer that I told you about who said, you know, A person who holds the pen, you know, writes down what, you know, what happened. And I had written, is just always, I've got hundreds and hundreds of notebooks from work and life.
00:58:33
Speaker
and And it was always just very natural for me to to write things down. Because I had done that, that a lot of that became evidence in the case. So take the note, write it down, you know, hone a discipline that,
00:58:46
Speaker
around writing things down and that that was a huge part of it. So I probably wasn't expecting, you know, my notes, my handwritten notes to become a big part of the evidence, but they did.
00:58:59
Speaker
and when the other side couldn't produce, you know, a version of events. Well, you know, someone else contemporaneously wrote it down. There's a word I didn't know before the case, contemporaneous good word. But that, I think, is is important.
00:59:14
Speaker
And I guess, you know, Annie, it goes back to that unexpected answer earlier around, you know, governance, discipline, write it down. Governance. No. And I think that just in life generally, it's always amazed me when, you know, people don't know a lot about their employer or, you know, the their government or what have you.
00:59:37
Speaker
How do we navigate without knowing where we came from and what how decisions get made? And so so understanding that, being curious about every situation you are in will hold you in good stead.
00:59:53
Speaker
Awesome. Great advice. Annie, did you have any questions on this? No, I think you've you've covered it pretty really, really well. Sorry, that was going to be a nice segue and I just ah just couldn't let this one go. and Absolutely fine, babe. Go for it.
01:00:08
Speaker
So what was it like taking the stand? Ah, yes. The courtroom itself is... I mean, it was, i will say to your listeners, if you haven't been to a courtroom, I'd recommend going. You can go. yeah Anyone could have come and sat in and watched my court case if they had wanted to.
01:00:28
Speaker
And it's it's a little bit like voting. I always sort of get quite emotional when I get to vote ah and just the thought that, you know, we live in a country where people literally are dying to get the right to do what we just, you know, take us out as our right to do. And walking into a courtroom, particularly for your own case, was really amazing.
01:00:56
Speaker
So seeing Chambers Versus up on a you know an electronic board was daunting and thrilling that when we finally did get to court, that took many years.
01:01:08
Speaker
And in the court the courtroom itself that I was in is quite small. I knew that place Inside out by the end of it, it was a two week hearing. There was no jury involved, a judge, but I knew how many chairs were in the room. i knew how many, you know, ceiling tiles there were, how many lights there were.
01:01:30
Speaker
And that was important to me. and we're going to do this weird full circle bit as well here, Annie, back to matriarchy, because I recognised when I went there that everyone was coming to this because of me.
01:01:48
Speaker
Like, you know, I'd walked through this gate. I was there. I was coming to to do this case. And When I realised that, and I really didn't realise that until, you know, because you've got put everything through security and you go up and you know, then you're there and you've got your legal team who were amazing, my legal team, and then, you know, there's all this tension because it's the opposition's legal team there.
01:02:10
Speaker
When I realised that, I realised that that room, therefore, was mine. And in the same way that, Bec, you've, you know, talked about the way in which you came to home and, and you know, we had dinner together and and the rest. If you host people at your home, well, what do you do? You know, you know your home well.
01:02:30
Speaker
You make good food. You make it look nice. You make it smell good. You, you you're yeah welcome people and what have you. And I made a decision that the courtroom was my, well, apart from being the judge's house, of course, but that was my place and that I would know that space inside out.
01:02:49
Speaker
I would be the most comfortable person in the room. and that these people who were coming to oppose me would be welcomed by me into that space. That's very much from a place of the way I was raised, and I felt very in control in that space and that I belonged there.
01:03:10
Speaker
And, and I, and so I didn't feel meek about it. I felt empowered about it. And, and I think that that just psychologically was and important during, during the, right. Cause you have to listen to, we don't have to listen, but you know, it's wise for you to be there. or To listen to a lot of things said about you that you, you know, might disagree with or, or,
01:03:32
Speaker
feel upset about and so just pacing yourself during the lunch times my partner was there throughout the whole thing I would take myself off to the park and just listen to my g-up tape on head notes your own g-up tape and that from the year nine and ten the rugby kids and But taking the stand was interesting. So that was something I didn't realise until just prior was that you're not allowed to talk to your lawyers while you're on the stand.
01:04:02
Speaker
And I was on the stand ah that spanned and was three days. And that was kind of weird because your lawyers are with you, you know, all the way. and But once you're on the stand, it's kind of like they're like, OK, we can't talk to you now for the next 72 hours.
01:04:16
Speaker
And so that was unexpected and you're not allowed to talk to anyone else about it either. My partner or anyone else who was in the courtroom couldn't tell me if I was not in the courtroom, what was going on, if I was sent out, et cetera.
01:04:30
Speaker
So you couldn't really talk about the case. So having real discipline with respect to that was very important and I'm proud to say that I really exercised that and and it kept me very much...
01:04:44
Speaker
in the right headspace for all of that. I ate really well. I tried to sleep well. I was very organised. I dressed well, you know, something about fashion is armour. And I, at the end of it, coming off the stand was highly emotional and and I really then did...
01:05:05
Speaker
have to take a ah moment after that. That was the toughest part of it all, particularly as I was up wasn't allowed to talk to my team. But overall, an extraordinary privilege really to utilise our country's system, our legal system in a way that I think unfortunately a lot of people are locked out of due to cost, due to the time, due to the psychological grind of it.
01:05:30
Speaker
That was it ah real privilege. Awesome. I always want to be the most comfortable person in the room. That is such a great piece to take away.
01:05:39
Speaker
Right. Well, Jaz, you've been an amazing, amazing guest. What we like to do is ask people just a few quick fire questions to kind of end an episode. So I'm going to pick three to to ask you The first one is, what's a career mantra or phrase that you keep
Career Mantra and Partner Alignment
01:05:56
Speaker
coming back to? Oh, hurry up.
01:06:00
Speaker
oh from a book that's so great hurry up and get it done okay love that hurry up that's an easy one to to take forward okay what's a small practical thing that makes a big difference in your work life no dickheads and and if you do have to deal with them are we allowed to say this on your podcast um yeah yeah yeah very safe space So i have I have been incredibly lucky and I haven't talked about anyone by name with respect to the people that I work with. I work with some of the most extraordinary people and in particular in Ocean, essentially a sister, a number of sisters and a couple of brothers in there.
01:06:46
Speaker
And it's small, it's essential, but that philosophy around, you know what, I'm going to follow the energy here. That's like, we we don't have time for that.
01:06:58
Speaker
Goes back to hurry up.
01:07:01
Speaker
interesting even okay uncle person it just yeah don't waste your time like you know because you know what's going to happen FOMO they're going to come find you in the end promise such good advice such good advice sage wisdom I would say okay last one from me what's something that you wish more women talked about at work but don't gosh that's a good one The reality of probably the balance with partners, I think that that's always been, it's always seemed like a taboo. So people can now talk about their children and what have you, but that early conversation we had during this ah around, you know, needing to get alignment with your partner, if there's one thing
01:07:48
Speaker
that, you know, any coaching or mentoring that I've done, it's, you can have as much support as is possible at work. But if that is not aligned with what is happening at home, you know, you're, that's really hard work. You're shouting into the woods.
01:08:04
Speaker
ah So i think, you know, figuring out how to navigate good conversations at home, disagreeing well without, you know, there's always going to be emotion that I think is is really critical. And, you know, as i said, you know, I have been fortunate to have the greatest cheerleader in my life be my husband. But that hasn't, it's not been, you know, it's not always perfect.
01:08:27
Speaker
There's a lot of decision making to listen to that. So, yeah. Sorry that wasn't very quick. No, that was that was very quick. And I think it's so interesting because I don't think I've ever had a conversation at work with any colleague in of any gender about their partner and in that way. And you're so you're so right.
01:08:46
Speaker
And yeah, I feel very fortunate that I also have a cheerleader at home, but it's it's definitely not the same for everyone. And so I think that's a really it's a really interesting point that that that's almost one of the remaining taboos is talking about your setup with your with your
Closing Thoughts and Gratitude
01:09:01
Speaker
relationship.
01:09:01
Speaker
okay, well, Jaz, you've been exceptional. but Thank you. It's been amazing, Jaz, and thank you so much for giving us all of your time and your beautiful thoughts from your beautiful brain.
01:09:12
Speaker
If people are interested in finding or following you or your work, what's the best way to find you on the internet? Oh, yes. at LinkedIn is is easy and i I do look at LinkedIn messages or um find me at oceandecadeaustralia.org and, yeah, if you email through there, then the team will make sure I see it.
01:09:33
Speaker
But yeah, I love to connect. I love the stories. If you love ocean, if you love science, be in touch, please. Be great to hear from you. Awesome. Is there any last message you would like to leave the listeners with before we say goodbye?
01:09:46
Speaker
Look, I mean, I think that a podcast like this so... is so welcome and so important. ah I can't imagine if this had existed 25 years ago and the sorts of things that you guys are talking about, bringing to the table. i I'd say that, like, you know, make sure that everyone's listening to The Career Coven because it is actually only through sharing our stories with each other.
01:10:13
Speaker
You often feel alone and you're not. There's a lot of people feeling, you know, the same way. So Congratulations on the podcast. As I said, I'm honoured to have been part of it and looking forward to to more of that. But, yeah, fight find your coven, people.
01:10:31
Speaker
That's what be looking for. Well, thanks so much, Jazz. It's been awesome to have you. Well, we hoped you loved hearing from Jazz just as much as we do. She's such an icon. And thank you listeners for joining us today.
01:10:42
Speaker
As always, if something in today's episode resonated with you, spread the magic, share it with a friend, post it on your socials, or leave a rating and review on your favorite podcast platform. That's how the Coven grows. Until next time.