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S1, E10 The Career Coven: Feedback
122 Plays8 months ago
In this last episode of season one, Annie shares her deep love of feedback, and some techniques to help make giving feedback less painful. As usual, Bec holds Annie to account on giving clear examples of these tools things actually work in practice. Whilst we both agree giving feedback is important, and that it should be specific and not vague but Bec is possibly less obsessed with feedback than Annie overall. Listen into this episode to hear us answer listener questions on:
- Is all feedback worth listening to?
- When I get feedback I don’t want to hear, I can tend to discredit the person who gave me the feedback. Is this normal?
- WTF is up with radical candour? Is this the same as just giving feedback?
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Transcript
Introduction to Feedback Theme
00:00:07
Speaker
Hello. Hello. And welcome to The Career Coven. I'm Bec. And I'm Annie. And this is our last episode of season one. I can't believe we're here, Annie. what I know. but true spain What What a joy it has been indeed. We have traversed the conversational landscape of professional development and we have landed at feedback as the last episode. the We'd go out with a bang on on one that I think I've got quite mixed feelings about feedback but I know you're quite passionate about feedback. I've got very strong positive feelings towards it. I just think that like
00:00:54
Speaker
What are we all here for, if not to learn? And feedback is just such an important way to do that. You just never know how other people perceive what you do, what you say. Even if you intend it one way, it can be perceived very differently and you just never know until people tell
Personal Experiences with Feedback
00:01:14
Speaker
you. And I think The reason I like it so much is because I think it's so pointless like sitting there obsessing over like what other people think of you and did that go well when someone could just tell you. um It just saves everyone so much time. ah So yeah, I think everyone deserves an opportunity to grow and that's why I feel so passionate about feedback. And don't get me wrong, it's not always a nice experience. it doesn't The fact that I think it's useful and has high
00:01:45
Speaker
value doesn't mean that it's always enjoyable. Absolutely not. um But yeah, I am. I'm pretty into it. I'm pretty pro at in the workplace. I think it's very needed. I mean, I'm like logically and theoretically into it. And then in practice, I feel incredibly awkward
Cultural Influences on Feedback Perception
00:02:03
Speaker
about it. Okay. Have a bit of a knot in my stomach, even just talking about it now. Is that because you don't like confrontation? Maybe or I mean, but I don't even mind confrontation really. And I wouldn't say I'm on an avoidance scale at all. no um ah But it's more just, i I don't know, I sort of immediately feel a bit self conscious. I feel awkward for the other person. You know, I obviously logically think feedback is excellent. And there are lots of benefits to it. But um maybe it's just because I felt uncomfortable every time I received feedback. And like, to be fair, most of the feedback is really nice. So I shouldn't feel like that. But
00:02:43
Speaker
um you know, just mentally preparing for someone to be outing me is, you know, awful or hated. You know, maybe a bit of imposter syndrome. I don't know. Well, I don't think we're like, as a culture, particularly good at being honest with each other. Like we're not really raised in a way where like direct feedback is good. I think girls are sort of particularly told to like be quiet and be good and not necessarily share what they're always thinking. So I'm sure that there are reasons that you might feel this like quite inherent sense of ick about feedback generally. And I think most people feel that way. I just love it.
00:03:28
Speaker
I'm really happy for you. I'll be here representing the general population who feel really awkward about it. I was about to say maybe and I feel like quite British about it, but I don't really fully identify as British. Well, that's what I was thinking as I said it. I was like, you didn't grow up here, so this doesn't count. But, you know, that's why I should feel awkward about it.
Structuring Effective Feedback
00:03:50
Speaker
I definitely used to. I think I've just been given some really good advice on how to deperson nice feedback over my years of employment. That has really helped me actually do that, hopefully, and therefore made it just a lot less less scary. but with But before I got that advice and like before I got those tools and stuff, I also felt the same, a for sure. I was very scared of feedback. I didn't want to have these conversations. I found them very difficult, very uncomfortable when I did have them.
00:04:18
Speaker
um So yeah, it's it's it's evolved over time for me. Well, me and the general population look forward to learning how to not be awkward about it from you. I think the feedback that I've received that's been really good has always been maybe it doesn't feel like it's good at the time. it actually um sometimes Actually, the most uncomfortable feedback I've had where I was really pissed off about it um actually was incredible feedback, but it took me ages to recognise it was great feedback. um But I think it you know it does create an opportunity for you to grow and reflect and and just close the delta between how you think about yourself and how others perceive you. Otherwise, I suppose you probably wouldn't really know what you would need to be focusing on to kind of learn and grow yeah without it. You could have a guess, but you might be right.
00:05:15
Speaker
Exactly. And yeah, you know, a lot of the best feedback I've ever received, I instantly disagree with it, which means that it's probably like, interestingly triggered something in me where I'm like, nope, that's not it. They've got that wrong. And then like two weeks later, I'm like, they're totally right. That is exactly it. And that's why I thought they were wrong. So it definitely, um even though I find it very useful for the reasons you said, which is like, how else will you know, you know, your development areas? um
00:05:46
Speaker
It doesn't mean that every time I get it, I'm like, oh, thank you, thank you, I agree. Sometimes I'm like, hmm, okay, interesting observation. Good, okay, tell me tell me about like the best time that you've had feedback, like what made it really good. So recently my team, like in the current role, the end of the year gave me through some 360 feedback. That was really useful because, you know, they all obviously had put the time into telling me like what I needed to work on. And I'd only been there a few months.
00:06:21
Speaker
and had been in a leadership role. And it can be quite hard to get feedback when you're in a leadership role. So that was really useful because it was very structured. I'd given them all some examples on how to do it. And then um I got the opportunity to talk to them about it. um So I like i like a 360 because I think it's good to have you know different different perspectives. And then I would also say that my last line manager gave me some in incredibly good feedback after we've been working together for about six months. She put loads of time into it. And what I particularly liked is that she wrote it down for me. So I had a record of it. um And
00:07:09
Speaker
I in general as a person like to write things down to process them but very few people who have given me like a verbal kind of probation review feedback have like made so much effort to write it out and give examples and she did that um and I was really grateful for that and there were parts in it that I didn't agree with but those were probably the most useful parts. I mean, it's really fascinating, I think, writing it down because every time I've received feedback and you go away and you come back an hour later and basically the only thing you can remember is like the one thing that really fucked you off, even if the 99% of the conversation was really nice. um So it is good to have that written down as a kind of objective record of of what they said rather than how you remembered it. And I write down all of my feedback
00:08:01
Speaker
i write I write it down before I give it into this like structure, behaviour, impact, feelings, future. I'm sure we will talk about it because it's my my thing that I do. But I i would never give i wouldn't really give much feedback that was that was long without putting it into this structure because I think it helps depersonalise it. um You know, i i will I am happy to give some feedback off the cuff, but I would say I have a kind of strong positive bias for that. So it's like, oh, if you asked me for a quick bit of feedback,
Features of Poor Feedback
00:08:34
Speaker
I'd probably be like, yeah, it was good. It was good back. Yeah, it was all right. Whereas if I've had time to think about it, I'd be like, well, you know, possibly, you know, wasn't that good. but um But yeah, so I write everything down and I find that really useful. it's It makes me,
00:08:51
Speaker
more careful with what I then actually say in the meeting the words I use and I think that's really important for when you give feedback is that you have thought through the exact words you say for literally the reason you just said which you can say one phrase for a whole good hour and they might only hear that phrase if that phrase was slightly wrong which obviously makes it sound like I'm putting, you know, a lot of pressure on people giving feedback, but like, you know, one sort of sloppy moment can ruin like a really, really great conversation. So I do I do prepare a lot for feedback conversations. Yeah. Yeah. I think like off the cuff remarks as the speaker, you feel like they're just sort of filler words, but as the recipient can be sort of disproportionately damaging, um especially when they're made in a not thoughtful way.
00:09:41
Speaker
um I think also, ah I mean, one of the one of the best lie managers I've worked with, um she was a former BCG consultant. And when I started working with her, she used to red pen every single bit of my work in like a really intense way that when I started working with her, I was like, Oh, my God, everything is wrong. um But actually, um that sort of process for me became insanely beneficial in making me genuinely quite militant in like all of the bits of work that I put together. And I'm really grateful for that. And I think I've taken that into my leadership in saying it's not about you and it's about making the work better and this will feel painful but don't take it personally. um Should we talk about bad feedback examples?
00:10:32
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think bad feedback is vague It's like very open to interpretation, just like, oh, well, I think you did this and that was, people thought that was this. You like, you make it about other people, not yourself, because you're not brave enough to actually give the direct feedback. And then when you ask for an example, like, can you give me an example of a time when I have actually done that, they can't give you an example. And they say something like, you do it all the time. You do it all the time. That's why we're having this conversation. And I'm like, what if I do it all the time? Tell me just one time that I've actually done it.
Dynamics of Peer Feedback
00:11:07
Speaker
And then got that's fine. But yeah, I think vague, I think blaming, like making it sound like it's collective feedback when actually it's very individual feedback. I think that's sloppy. I think it's lazy. I think it's conflict averse.
00:11:20
Speaker
And then, um yeah, no examples really gets, grinds my goat. You know, if it's a proper feature and you're coming to it and you actually can't think of an example, then it's like that to me is, what are we talking about? Yeah, I mean, it's super interesting. What do you make of um collective feedback? Because like, I was just thinking we've just had our performance reviews for the year. And generally, you'll you'll get a bit of feedback, you' it will be sent to your line manager and they will sort of protect presenter in totality. And um I'm interested to hear your views on the anonymity of feedback and whether that is or isn't helpful. um i I feel quite strongly that um there are really valid reasons why you would make it anonymous to the person who's receiving it or to the line manager. But what do you think?
00:12:13
Speaker
Yeah, so i um I would say I definitely think where there are real power structures at play sarah that can really penalize certain people, I think having anonymous feedback is fine. like is good. you know In many kind of startups, there is they they have like tools where you can post feedback that goes straight to the C-suite, straight to the CEO, but it's all anonymized. and i think I think that is really good because I think it can be very hard to speak up about what you think is actually going on in your workplace to to the person who ultimately pays you.
00:12:52
Speaker
And, but there might be some stuff going on that they're not aware of. And I think that being anonymous is is totally fine. What I don't like love is kind of peer level anonymity. You know, if someone at my level cannot take me aside and speak to me about a perceived behavior that maybe they've heard about from their team, like, or maybe they just seen it in a meeting and they're my peer, that to me would speak to that relationship not being great, I would want someone at a peer level to me to definitely be able to give me direct feedback. And then obviously, you know, yeah, I think kind of downwards to me, I would probably hope that that would also not be anonymous. But I think that I think there are really, really valid reasons for anonymous feedback. And I think anonymous feedback can be very, very useful, especially at scale. Yeah, I mean, I
00:13:48
Speaker
but i would I would love to see like this the range of comments in an anonymous feedback to a C-suite. I suppose in a startup and it might be a little bit less wild west because there are few there are fewer people to fill it in, but I can imagine if there was like that version at the organisation that I work at, it would probably be like kind of insane. um But but i think I think in most places it is quite insane, just to be clear. I think in most places it's mad. And some of it, you know, within it is like nuggets of gold. Within it, ah things are probably to be really concerned about. And there's lots of just like nothingness.
00:14:27
Speaker
but But yeah, I think it is quite mad everywhere. Yeah. And I think i I like what you said about the peer feedback. I also feel like if you genuinely have feedback that you want to give someone who's, you know, not more senior to you, um unless like their line manager has approached you already, I think it is better for your relationship to do it directly rather than like copying in their line manager or going to their line manager, because I think there's no reason there to be that sort of punitive element to receiving it. um You know, I would maybe think about it if they if I gave them the feedback and they didn't do anything about it. um ah But in the first instance, that feels like the most
Timing and Delivery of Feedback
00:15:08
Speaker
respectful thing to do. Definitely. I think that's a really good point. I hadn't thought of it that way, but it can absolutely feel more
00:15:15
Speaker
serious if it's kind of gone to your line manager and then come back down to you rather than just going direct across to each other. I think also say like ah I find it really frustrating in in a feedback conversation where I'm receiving the feedback when people just say you you know it's really good I have no specific feedback. I find that almost more annoying than actually having an actionable thing to grow on. It sort of leaves you like Oh, I guess that's fine, but it doesn't feel like amazing. It's like, that feels sufficient. Perhaps, perhaps a little bit lazy.
00:15:54
Speaker
um and Yeah, you're type A, so you wouldn't like that. But like, I do, I would say, usually when someone says that to me, I also think, oh, that's a bit lazy. You know, even if you did think it was all really good, you could have said, specifically, I liked this bit. that That makes a difference, giving me the specific, as a forementioned example, makes a very big difference in like the credibility of the feedback to me, um including when it is just like, that was amazing, like couldn't have done it better myself, specifically like X, Y, Z, oh, thank you, thank you, yes, I will take all of that. Oh, it was great, I don't have any feedback, lazy, lazy.
00:16:44
Speaker
Okay, so ah tip number one for giving feedback is don't be lazy. And the ah the other one before we move on to a more constructive part of the conversation. One thing that I used to really like really get bothered about was when someone more senior to me would just say like, this isn't right, or they would just redo the work themselves. And it's like so incredibly frustrating because you never find out how you could improve and it actually becomes just really demoralizing because you're like I'm just going to try something else and see if that works. But, um, that's another example where like absence of feedback is, is unbelievably painful. Yeah. That's one of my development areas actually. I tend to do like, I tend, like once, once I've given the feedback and then I'll be like, I just want it to be done like this, but I've actually sort of done it then. And in this useful 360 feedback that I got from the team, that was one of the things that they pulled out as they were like, you know,
00:17:41
Speaker
you've got to kind of give us a chance to like, you don't have to do as much, we should probably be doing a bit a bit more um so that we can learn how to do stuff without you just kind of telling having done it and telling us how to do it so that we can do it next time. I think there's a very big difference in there around urgency. So like sometimes you don't have time to go through as a leader, the kind of extensive feedback round. But and ah ah when I have done this previously, I've always been like, after the fact, here are the things that I changed and how I changed them to improve them. So like you can do it next time, but I just did it. But I'm trying, I'm trying not to do that. um So tell us, tell us about your feedback model, Annie. What does great feedback look like? Give us, give us the rundown.
Structured Feedback Models
00:18:30
Speaker
Yeah. um So I'm going to take like literally zero credit for this because, um, that our very good team at Thriver got us some external feedback training when we were very early on in being line managers. And it was great. And it was by someone I know's wife who works in HR. And so she deserves like full credit for pulling this together and it has had a really big impact on me. But um she said that like every every bit of feedback that you ever want to give can be kind of um constructed in a way where there is the behavior and this behavior is something that irrefutably happened. So it might be like, I took your pen.
00:19:13
Speaker
And you can agree with the person at the start. So I can agree with you. I just took your pen and you can say, yeah, we agree. You took my pen. Um, but then the rest of the dimensions are not an irrefutable fact. So they are about how other people interpret it. So the second one after behavior is impact, which is like, what was the impact of you taking that pen? So you could say to me the impact of you taking my pen, Annie, because I can't write, can't take my notes for this call. And then the next one is feelings. How did how did um that make you feel? And you could say, well, I was frustrated because I had literally just jumped onto a call that I need to take notes for and I couldn't because I didn't have a pen. So I was pretty frustrated and yeah, I was a bit irritated by it.
00:20:02
Speaker
And then future, which is the last F, is like, how how would you like that to be next time the situation comes up? And you could say, yeah, next time, just tell me that you've taken my pen so I can take notes on my phone, or just don't take my pen. And the way that I think writing things out like this, what I think it does, is no one can really argue with like how it makes you feel because like that is your own thing so if you were annoyed at me like really annoyed at me for the pen I can't say no you weren't annoyed come on because that's yours it's your emotion so it's like it's much easier to kind of have a conversation where effectively you're telling me
00:20:50
Speaker
i really annoyed you but it just sounds different than you really annoyed me if you say like the way that actually made me feel that I couldn't take notes on my call was really frustrating I was already frustrated with you that's pretty reasonable like that's a pretty reasonable thing to say and it just kind of depersonalizes the whole thing and um I just find it incredibly helpful, especially in difficult situations where you really disagree, because you have to have a conversation about the behavior. So like you have to agree. Because I might have said, you said, oh, you took my pen. I said, I didn't take your pen. It's my pen. You can say, well, you know,
00:21:32
Speaker
It's, this is why I think it was my pen. And then I might go, oh, oh God, wait a second. That pen is actually your pen. I thought I took my pen. Sorry. And then you've like cleared it up, right? But if it's something much more serious, which is like, that was within my sphere of influence. And you like, do you agree that I own X decision? The answer is usually in most organizations, it is clear who owns ultimately a decision. Sometimes it can be very hard, but usually it is. And you have to have that initial conversation of, yes, Beck, actually, I agree. That is your decision to own. And then you're starting from this level of like, okay, so we've agreed X happened. There is a point of agreement. And then you talk about all this other stuff.
00:22:24
Speaker
And yeah, honestly, I feel like it's like magic. every time it's Every time I've used it, it's really helped. Every time people have done it to me, it's really helped me not feel shit about what they're saying. It doesn't feel as personal. And yeah, I just think it's a really good discipline to think that carefully about what you're about to say. in these, in these types of structured feedback conversations. There are other ones like there's one called like situation impact. It's like SBIR or something I'll put it in the show notes. So it's not the only one which exists. But yeah, I find this stuff really, really useful so that feedback doesn't lead to just like an emotional um communication breakdown, which is what I think can happen when
00:23:07
Speaker
feedback's not well thought through. Super interesting. I'm just trying to think about like how I would apply this model to something um slightly more high stakes than the pen. So the behavior is we agreed that I would hand over a piece of work to you and um there are lots of dependencies on you completing the work and it's taken you more than a year to do the work and And i'm I'm fucked off about it. Okay. So what I would, you know, the side note I would caution is like, and I would hope that this isn't the first time we're giving the feedback if we're a year in yeah to a late deliverable. I've given them feedback. So maybe the behavior is actually, we've had a discussion before about this deliverable that I gave you and I still haven't got the deliverable.
00:24:07
Speaker
t Is that true? Do you agree that's true? And they would say, I would say, I'm your person. Yeah, okay. Yes, you I agree. You did give me this deliverable a year ago. And I can also confirm that I have not done that. Then I think you would say the impact on this is that X business outcome. This problem has not been solved and we have lost this amount of money. The impact ideally should be like customer commercial, you know, it should be like not, not, not like I went home and cried to my husband. You can give that feedback, but it's just different. Um, and then you would say the feeling is I feel incredibly frustrated about this because this is the third time we're having this conversation.
00:24:57
Speaker
I feel like I'm wasting my time having this conversation with you, leading to more frustration. And in future, I'd like to not have to have multiple conversations with you to ask for a deliverable that I have given you with a clear time date. Is that reasonable? And they would say, yeah, probably because it probably is reasonable. Or they might say, no, I can't promise that. I'm really snowed under. Here's all of my excuses, bla blah blah, blah, blah. But then what I think is if you've got it written down, I think you can literally just say something like, I think it is reasonable that when I hand over a piece of work to you that has a deadline, you deliver it within a reasonable amount of time. And I don't have to have multiple conversations with you about it. I think that is reasonable. So if we disagree on that, that's fine.
00:25:55
Speaker
but you take it back to the behaviour, this like quite neutral statement, like I think actually that is a reasonable ask of me onto you. I love that. I think that's a really good, right that to me made the penny drop slightly more than the pen. um But I think it's fascinating. I think also like I would be terrified to work with you because if you could speak that clearly about giving feedback, I'd be like, yes, it's very reasonable. of
00:26:25
Speaker
What I would say what would say right is like it takes a lot of time to give feedback like this. You have to really like sit down and like think about it. So I definitely don't want to pretend that like I'm doing this on a weekly basis with my whole team. like Well, let's have a Biff session of like me giving you. I'm not. like i'm I'm definitely not the perfect person. But when it when it comes to quarterly feedback sessions, I will kind of try and sit down and do this really well. um Yeah, everyone who's worked with me would have heard of that framework. They would have seen it. They would have had a little document, at least one. The Biff. It's got so got have a better name than the Biff. I mean, i but yeah the only other thing that I would add to feedback that I, what what great feedback looks like to me, I find it best if I'm asked it in a coaching style. um That really works for me in terms of
00:27:23
Speaker
um helping me to reflect. And, you know, I can be coaxed along with, um if I'm not quite hitting the mark, that the the person who's giving feedback is um ah hoping for, you know, they can steer on beyond that. But I find that really helpful. um I find that when I am ah running feedback sessions, like, ah how do you think that went? Or what would you do differently and really easy questions? Yeah, yeah. Do you think that though, is because you've got to a level where you would have a good response to a question like that. I think you have to have a lot of trust to be able to have a conversation like that. um I've definitely had examples where I've i've tried that exercise with people who we don't have as strong a relationship and I'll go how do you think that went and they will go pretty good and I'll be like hmm interesting. I had a slightly different take on it
00:28:18
Speaker
um And like that I think it requires it yeah it requires a bit of um introspection from the recipient. And and I think you know another good topic for us to talk about is like when is good timing to give feedback? Yeah, with the best will in the world, right even really good feedback. If someone is like not not in a place where they like can receive it, I think it can still go very badly.
Trust and Growth in Feedback
00:28:46
Speaker
um So yeah, I think you have to be careful giving feedback it when someone is like visibly very, very tense, anxious, upset.
00:28:58
Speaker
um i do I would caution that by saying, I guess sometimes that is unavoidable, like very hard conversations, people may be very upset and you may need to be giving them feedback in that. But if it's just a kind of line manager developmental chat, if you know that someone is incredibly stressed out that morning, they have arrived late, you know, they're all over the place, they give you some cues that they're feeling really under pressure, they haven't got their work done, they feel really stressed, it may not be the time to kind of deliver a biff. deliver for a bit And I think you can, and I think you can ask, I think you can ask like, you know, do you want to have this session today? Should we reschedule?
00:29:43
Speaker
can see that you might be a bit stressed. I also think it's good if you if you are in a bad mood as the person giving the feedback. When you ask that question, like, you know, is everyone feeling like good? do Should we do this? If you're honestly not feeling good, you should also have the like self you know-reflection, self-awareness to say I actually don't want to give you this today because I'm feeling a bit sassy or I had a really bad cheap journey and or I'm really under pressure and I'm actually thinking about this other thing. um i mean i I just also hate real-time feedback um mostly because I'm like a bit of a slow processor. I definitely like need to digest stuff and
00:30:29
Speaker
and like have a day or two behind me before I am able to crystallise how I think something went, unless it went catastrophic, in which case I definitely already know and don't need to hear about it at the time. um But i I sort of wonder like, is there a is there an ideal sort of like timing point around feedback? Because I think if you leave it too long, it's probably less effective, right? Yeah, I mean, i I definitely think the ideal would be to have like quite regular sort of feedback chats structured into one-to-one time, or at least for me that has what has worked well. It always gets deprioritized, right? Because everything else just always gets prioritized. So if you at least have it, you know, on your one-to-one notes or like in the calendar, this is a feedback one-to-one, at least there are some
00:31:21
Speaker
cues to say like let's have these conversations regularly but definitely for me the reason like timeliness is important is um
00:31:33
Speaker
it's it's linked to that example. Like if someone gives me an example of a behaviour that they want me to change and it's had this really bad feeling, you know, it's made them feel really annoyed or whatever. One, i don't like them I don't like the thought that they are annoyed with me for a month, for six months. But two, I also can't remember that example very well anymore. And you know sometimes maybe if it's like a big bust up you will remember it but a lot of times it's small stuff right like a lot of the a lot of the stuff that annoys people it's not big things it's small things that you do it's definitely how more paper cuts with your colleagues yeah exactly and so that's that's why i think the timeliness is so important because if you told me something i'd done six months ago to annoy you in a conversation i might remember it but we talk so much that i probably wouldn't yeah
00:32:25
Speaker
Yeah. I think also, to we you probably have to tell me. I don't have any feedback. That's lazy girl feedback. um Publicly. ah Feedback should never be given publicly if it is. ah if it is i know That's true. That's actually very true. And I think in terms of also people feeling comfortable, I think privately and also in ah in an environment where the that person is comfortable.
Challenges in Feedback
00:32:53
Speaker
So, you know, if someone does really prefer working from home, consider that before you kind of drag them in for an in-person, in a coffee shop session. You know, people probably want it to be in private and they probably want it to be in their like preferred setting. Yeah, definitely. is Is there anything we would highlight um to get you in the mindset for receiving feedback? I think for me, it's important to remember that you need to focus on whether you value the
00:33:21
Speaker
to kind of untrust the person who's giving you feedback um and like trusting their judgment. And ah you know if you have a relationship with them that is bigger picture positive, odds are the feedback is coming from a really good place. I think that really helps me. Yeah, yeah, I think that's a really good one. I think just trying to reframe it, as we said at the start as like, It is, you know, it sounds a bit wanky, but it is a gift for someone to go out of their way and like bother to tell you the way that you might have been perceived or something that you did. You might have annoyed more than one person. Like you just don't know, not everyone has perfect self-awareness. So I think like trying to reframe what you're hearing is like, it's actually really useful for me to understand this. I don't think that
00:34:17
Speaker
I don't think you have to kind of be so thankful and grateful when people are saying really hard stuff. I don't think you have to kind of... like panda to the person and just be like I'm so grateful everything you say just helps me learn like that's a bit disingenuous but I think mentally preparing yourself for like the reason that we do this is we're all trying to get better we're all trying to learn I might hear some things I don't like I might hear some things I really don't agree with you actually don't have to agree with the feedback you hear you also don't have to action it you just have to listen to it and kind of respect
00:34:53
Speaker
the person who's giving it to you and I think um if you go into it thinking like all I have to do is actually listen to this and then as you said loads of people take a bit of time to mull things over. You don't have to agree, you don't have to high five at the end, you don't have to hug, it doesn't have to be like super great. I think it's just trying to ah listen and take from it what you find useful. Yeah and I think also it's worth saying if If you're the recipient of some difficult feedback, it's also really difficult for the person giving you the feedback to give it to you. like yeah i I doubt even a tiny percentage of people would take any joy in that.
00:35:33
Speaker
um so yeah yeah like when i When I have to give hard feedback, it's something that I genuinely fret about for ages, making sure that I get it right because it's important to get right. But you know, it still makes you feel anxious. and Well, at least it makes me feel anxious because maybe it won't because I have biff now, but. No, I still feel anxious. Everyone does right because human nature, I think that's a really good point, trying to be empathetic towards the person giving it, especially if they know it's going to upset you, right? As you say, that's really tough.
00:36:06
Speaker
um Yeah, what else? Good tips to get in the mindset. I think being able to say, if you're really not is a really important one. You know, if if you can't take it, if there was something going on and it's just never going to go well for you, I think being able to say, I will have this conversation with you. I will even do it tomorrow, but seriously, if we have it today, I'm just going to lose it. That is like, great. I want to know that. I want to know that before I then lay into you about the stuff that isn't actually causing you to be overwhelmed, which is usually all the stuff outside of, you know, this conversation. But yeah.
00:36:42
Speaker
I think if you're not okay, being able to say it is is is important. I've also found with like really challenging feedback conversations, it's it's never usually ends up being just about work. um You know, if there's if there's really extreme patterns of behavior that you're picking up and having a conversation about, the conversation very typically for me would swerve into a place of like, um this person explaining what was going on in their home life or their mental health or you know, there's really, really tricky personal circumstances they're dealing with. And they go, you know, I know I'm not being my best self right now. um and And actually having just like a ah ah human conversation with someone about that almost takes the edge and and the heat out of how whatever is going on for them is
Listener Questions on Feedback
00:37:27
Speaker
manifesting at work. Because you're like, I just have empathy with you about what's going on, just to let you know this is how it's playing out at work. But let's talk about how we can make that situation holistically better for everyone. and
00:37:40
Speaker
Yeah, that's a great point. Okay, listener questions. Does feedback need to be received well to be effective? No. I just think that's a straight no. It's much nicer for everyone involved if it is received well, as we have just mentioned. But I think often good feedback strikes a nerve because It is true. And that nerve might express itself in a way that isn't great. And I think as long as a person can come back and acknowledge that or like mutually, you can acknowledge that it like wasn't the conversation that you wanted to have. Ideally, you'd be able to move past it because everyone is like fallible. No one can be like perfect. And I think it's.
00:38:27
Speaker
you know it's not a natural thing to give loads of feedback. um You can just hit people at a bad time and then it can be really good. And as I say, the best feedback I've ever had, like usually the most right feedback, I know it's right because I'm like, no, no, I don't do that. And then ah in like two weeks, I'll be like, oh, Hmm, that is actually interesting. i put I possibly do do that a bit actually, but my instant thing was actually, I didn't say like, no, but when they were when this person was delivering it to me, I remember thinking like, you could not be more wrong. You could not be more wrong about me. That is a complete misinterpretation of me. i And then literally two weeks later, I was like, that's definitely true. Yeah, I feel like my,
00:39:17
Speaker
fit least effective mode of receiving feedback is when I respond with total indifference. I'm like, yeah, whatever. um That's more me being like, I'm never going to change. Sorry. um you know that's just fine Takes a sting out. Okay. What about, um what about this one? When I receive poor feedback, my instinct is to discredit it or the feedback giver is all feedback. Good. This is quite similar to your answer that you just gave her. Yeah, look, I think all feedback is data. Data comes with biases, right? And one of those biases might be that you don't have a good relationship with the person giving it to you, that they want the same job. You're both going for the same job, whatever. There's loads of stuff.
00:39:59
Speaker
but um you don't have to action it. I would take feedback from you more seriously than I would take feedback from, you know, Jo blogs off the street. That's because there's context. I do think that all the data, getting the data is really important, but I don't think you have to action all the data points. What about you? This reminds me, I mean, we've had a conversation about this because I'm pretty sure I phoned you like in floods of tears. This was like last year when I got um one scathing oh yeah that was scathingly unprofessional bit of 360 feedback from um someone who ah had a bit of a personal issue with me that was i think both like surprising and hurtful and um you know that is feedback that i would happily discredit agree and i think the extremes are usually if you get extremely negative or extremely positive feedback that
00:40:54
Speaker
that is in dimensions that you have literally never got feedback in. I would be like, and okay, that's, that's interesting. But like, because it's data, I'd be like, oh, that's one data point. Whereas actually all of these other things have so many more. data points. um It's like an outlier.
Complexities in Giving Feedback
00:41:12
Speaker
Yeah, you're you're really right. the The strength of the data points and the patterns between them um and the consistency. It's like every bit of feedback that I've always had has been consistently within a couple of themes um rather than anything else. um i've got I love this one. I want to help someone and feel I can give them feedback, but I'm not sure they'll want to hear it from me. What should I do? I think you should just ask them if they want it.
00:41:40
Speaker
Do people say no to them? They might say no. Do people say no? I feel like people will feel sucked into saying yes. I think I would say no to some people. I think there are some people that if they said, do you want a bit of feedback on what I think is kind of holding you back, let's say, professionally, I would be like, no, thanks. I don't think most people would have the bollocks to do that.
00:42:08
Speaker
I'm not able to feedback. close business Thank you. No, but like, I think the look, I guess in implicit in this question is that there is some some sort of relationship there, right? So I would I would say no to a random stranger kind of offering me some feedback or or someone I really didn't know, because I just don't think you probably know enough about me. And that's fine. Let's say this person does have a ah a useful viewpoint. I do still think you should ask, you should check if they want it. And then you should ask them like how they would prefer to talk about it. Do they want to go for a coffee? If you're really giving this, this person sounds like they want to land some like life feedback, some like big stuff. And I think if you really want to do that, as you've said, it being a bit more conversational, it being a bit more coachy can like,
00:43:05
Speaker
make it an easier conversation to get through. But I still think you should probably ask. Like I wouldn't, I don't think I would take it that well if someone kind of said, do you do you want to go for a coffee? And then they sat down and they actually just feedbacked me about about me without my consent. I would be like, sorry, I thought we were just o have going to have a chat. Icky, tell me again. um No one wants to be bounced into like, a mini character assassination for a coffee. yeah um I think that was it for the listener questions. I just had one more, one more sort of question comment. um Obviously there's in feedback world radical candor, which has sort of been on the scene for a while now. Do you have any things on that?
00:43:56
Speaker
a I do have views. It might be a bit impolite. Well, some some things I think ah inherently in that framework are good, which is like, it's important to say when things are like going wrong, acting fast, not not not sitting on things. You know, I do think the kernels of the theory are are good. i I think radical candor can be weaponized to disguise being an absolute asshole. And I think that, I think that, you know, other people talk about like, I think maybe it's in fairness, maybe it's even so part of the same actual book, there's like radical empathy as well, which is like really trying to understand so how your words will impact someone else and and be prepared for that. I think that's like a really important part of if you're going to be like radically candid, be like,
00:44:52
Speaker
empathetic with it. um Look, I probably know people that would say that they practice radical candour and it's absolutely amazing. And I think, I think it probably is quite a ah simple and and good world to live in. I just think that very few people are used to that level of just um like constant feedback, like constant barrage. And and I think that you just have to make sure that the people you bring into a truly kind of radically candid environment will suit that radically candid environment because it's not very common.
00:45:30
Speaker
um But yeah, lots everything can be weaponized, right? Like psychological safety can be weaponized against you. Oh, your feedback is, I'm not gonna let you give me any feedback because I feel psychologically unsafe in this moment. Like you can kind of weaponize any any of these things. So I think that is one thing to be mindful of but um but yeah i think in particular radical candor got into the zeitgeist and i think a lot of people who are just being like really mean and really rude were like i'm just radically candid i'm actually just radically candid it's like no you're just a radical arsehole yeah i mean i think for radical candor to work
00:46:07
Speaker
properly, you also need like an extreme amount of EQ. And like most people I've ever worked with do not have that appropriate level of EQ to be able to have that conversation in a nice way. I think also some people feel like they're probably being radical when they're not conversely. um ah Yeah, yeah that's but like especially for British people. Yeah, that's definitely true. Yeah, I'm not sure it is actually radical. to to the point you just made. I'm not actually sure it is that radical to just be candid, just be open. I think it is very, very hard because it takes people a lot of energy, as you say, you have to have high EQ, but also you have to notice what's going on. And that takes a lot of time. And when you work in organizations as large as yours, you have to notice like what's going on on in so many different teams, departments, you know, that it almost becomes impossible. So,
00:47:03
Speaker
Yeah, I'm not sure I certainly don't really talk about radical cancer all that much. i Yeah, I get asked to give feedback a lot around performance reviews. And I think that's just like the culture of a big company. But I only ever really elect to respond to those requests when I feel like I have something meaningful to say. Because otherwise, I don't feel qualified to comment on whether like something was particularly good or particularly bad. I'm just not close enough. And like, I could tell you something, but I don't have a high degree of confidence in my own assessment. So you should put any weight on your own assessment. And I think that's really good because you never know, right? You never know how your feedback that is quite vague and maybe like you don't feel confident in can actually then spiral to be some quite big feedback if you just give it really flippantly.
Reflections and Season Closure
00:47:52
Speaker
um especially when it's like in a 360 context where it's like actually this VP just said they think you're X which probably isn't what you said but it's summarised one level and you know so uh yeah I think it's good it's good not to respond if you don't if you don't have enough to say and on that note shall we? Shall we? It's been a pleasure um thank you everyone for listening and thank you everyone for making it through to the end of season one we have been
00:48:24
Speaker
So delighted that you have been listening to us and so grateful to have you here. So um keep your eyes and ears peeled for season two, which we are planning in the works currently. Anything else you want to add, Annie, before we go? No. Let us know what you think. We're all ears and um give us the feedback. It helps. And that's where I'll end. Annie being avoidant about doing intros and exits like the whole of season one. There's something like that for her. All right, thanks everyone for listening. Please do give us lots of stars and shares and let all of your friends know about us and we will be back next season. Thank you so much.
00:49:07
Speaker
um