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S2, E10 The Career Coven: Negotiation
52 Plays8 days ago
In the last episode of season 2, Bec and Annie discuss the skill of negotiation. Bec has a strong belief that everything in life is about negotiation, and this is one of her favourite skills to practice. Annie tends to rush negotiations, and push for outcomes, something which is a development area.
Bec talks through how she prepares for negotiations, so that she feels confident and calm in her position. She outlines how firm but fair is often the best approach to negotiations - as in the majority of cases you’re negotiating with people who you will work with again. Annie talks girl math - how to get to an hourly rate which does not undervalue yourself.
This episode covers:
- What makes a ‘good negotiation’
- The importance of knowing when to walk away
- Playing a few steps ahead
- Accidentally negotiating well
- Not rushing negotiations
- How it’s easier to negotiate on behalf of other people, and that you can ask for help
- When to have a break in a negotiation
Enjoying this content? Please rate and subscribe on your preferred platform, and let us know what you think! hello@careercoven.com
Recommendations from this episode:
- Venture Deals, Feld and Mendelson. A good book for if you are preparing to raise money for a business.
- Accelerate Law. Annie's Lawyer Simon who is amazing for startups.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Season Recap
00:00:06
Speaker
Hello. Hello. Welcome to The Career Coven. I'm Beck. And I'm Annie. And this, Annie, is our last episode of season two. but I can't believe it. Too down. I can't believe it. What have we been talking about for this whole time? Who wants to listen to us for this long? Fascinating. We don't know.
The Role of Negotiation in Life
00:00:28
Speaker
absolutely We're going to go out with a bang um on the topic today of negotiation, one of my all-time favorite pastimes. I will take the spirit that everything in life is about negotiation. Just going to start there. Interesting. Discuss. Everything in life is about negotiation. I mean, I somewhat agree with that. I wouldn't say that it's like one of my favorite skills to practice, but um but I'm looking forward to learning from you, as always. I love to negotiate to the extent that it's probably really annoying for everyone that I work with, my husband, everyone who I interact with. I think like at work in particular, literally everything is a form of negotiation and it's like a key skill. So think about like, you know, in the media companies where I've worked at, sometimes that can be
00:01:26
Speaker
like a hard commercial contract negotiation, a partnership deal um or a vendor in government policy. It's about negotiating between people with different policy objectives and external stakeholders.
Personal Negotiation Philosophies
00:01:39
Speaker
And kind of more generally, I think in a work environment, it's about gaining consensus and getting a path forward. yeah um And then obviously like in your personal life, like well, personal and work is your pay. That's a big deal, which we'll talk about later.
00:01:54
Speaker
you know, even with my partner, any decision is a bit of a negotiation. We're in a 14 year negotiation about how many pets to have. um Actually, we're in that negotiation as well. It's not 14 years long, but it's still a negotiation that's very active, I would say. god I've got us up to two so far, but I've not lost hope that a dog will come in the next two years. But I think more generally as a philosophy for me, negotiating is about finding a path forward um that satisfies everyone's objectives and obviously everyone can't have everything and I think what's really fun for me about negotiation is that it actually requires a bit of creativity and a bit of flexibility in adapting to what's going on. um I recently have been watching Suits because I'm pregnant and do nothing except for watch TV. I don't know if you've seen Suits but they basically negotiate the whole time
00:02:49
Speaker
probably not a style that like I would do because there's quite a lot of lying in their negotiation but I particularly liked this quote from Harvey Spector when he says, what are your choices when someone puts a gun to your head?
00:03:02
Speaker
You take the gun, or you pull out a bigger one, or you call that bluff, or you do any of the 146 other things. And i what I like about this is that it's not just one option, right? That I think in negotiation, there's so many things you could do, which is why I find it really fun. Tell me what negotiation means for you.
Negotiation in Professional Settings
00:03:22
Speaker
um Yeah, it's interesting. A lot of the things like in my personal life, there's not that much negotiating, I would say. It's like you win all the time, though. That would, in my personal life, I think that would be a fair reflection of many discussions. Yes, yes. But Yeah, I think professionally, you know, where it what I think about is obviously when fundraising, that is like a big, big negotiating moment that really, umm that is really incredibly important every time you do it. um Anytime you hire anyone and or get hired, that is basically a big negotiation process once you're at the offer stage. um Pay, yes.
00:04:09
Speaker
ah It's interesting because when you said, you know, lots of things that work about negotiation, that actually didn't resonate with me like that much. But then I think about when I was in a more complex environment where like the environment I work in now, everyone is a clear like discipline owner and they contribute their parts but like whoever is the owner and the decision maker, it is usually quite clear. Whereas that was like once the organization got bigger and there was a lot more disagreement and the ownership was a lot less clear, then everything was much more like a negotiation. And I, i to be honest with you, I didn't like that all that much. so um But yeah, I would say I have accidentally negotiated quite well in the past. Like I think I didn't,
00:05:01
Speaker
I think I did an okay job at points in in some fundraising negotiations. um It was all really accidental. Oh, don't you say mean to yourself. i know there were There were actually moments where I was like, that's insane. I'm not doing that. And then that was like,
00:05:19
Speaker
ah really good thing to say and all of those things got got removed but I actually was just like reading a logical thing and I was like well I would obviously never do that so I'm not going to be doing that and I think this kind of firmness with which I just said no they were like okay well that's a really big thing for her and to your point of um of like it's kind of like trying to satisfy everyone everyone feels like I've heard the saying that in a good negotiation everyone feels that they've compromised and I think because of the way that I was like well that one thing is like there's no way for me they were like oh that's a red line we'll just kind of take that one out um but most of that was actually just accidental. See I don't think that's accidental because actually like rule number one of negotiat negotiating is you have to know what you want um and you're just someone who knows what she wants.
00:06:08
Speaker
Quite deeply, it seems. um So I wouldn't call that accidental. I'd just say you were unknowingly excellent, of course. Well, thanks for that big, um big prop there. but But what I think is I'm a better negotiator on behalf of like an organisation and I'm a much worse negotiator on behalf of like myself.
00:06:31
Speaker
So ah i I know that I have not negotiated pay discussions. Amazingly in the past, for example, um I find it like so much easier to negotiate on behalf of other people than I do on myself. So I think that um I think that's like an interesting thing. Yeah, I mean, with pay specifically, there's a lot of like self self worth and sort of feelings around ah whether you should or shouldn't feel shame or do or don't feel shame or any kind of questions about your self-worth or get emotionally wrapped up into what is a commercial discussion. um ah But we can come on to that later.
Preparing for Big Negotiations
00:07:10
Speaker
um How did you prepare for your big fundraising negotiations?
00:07:19
Speaker
I read what I read in a lot of detail, the thing I was negotiating over, I read some books about negotiating with VC. um I Yeah, I think I tried to understand like what what their motivations were and therefore what I thought they would care about. And often, you know, these things are, they sort of, you do know that it's a very, very, very commercial negotiation. That's what that is mostly about. It's about like, how much can they buy for a price? So I do think that their motivations are quite clear. And so it's kind of on you to like,
00:07:58
Speaker
work around those. So in some ways it's not, it's not always the like hardest negotiation because there is one really, really clear goal from the other side. Whereas I think um maybe more complex negotiations are when there are like lots of different things that are trying to be solved and lots of different agreements that are trying to be made.
00:08:17
Speaker
um Yeah, and I think that, you know, I was doing it with a co-founder and we had, we had really thought about, to your point, what we wanted, what, um what where our lines were and um what would be a red flag for us or like something that we didn't want, what we would push really hard on versus what we wouldn't push hard on.
00:08:36
Speaker
um So yeah, that's how i I went about that. What about you? How do you prepare for a kind of big negotiation? ah So I think probably really similar to to what you said. I think being really clear on what is a must have and a nice to have um is really important. I think it's also really important to know and understand from all sides of the negotiation, what is the power that you specifically have? And yeah what what is your leverage? Because that will that you know what is the valuable thing that you're putting on the table? um And what does it mean for them? And you know what are the consequences about changes in that big bit of leverage? um And then I think, as you said, just a bit of an appreciation of like what isn't isn't reasonable.
00:09:29
Speaker
um on both sides, I think if you're negotiating with someone, so for example, um we're in the process of selling our flat, um our estate agent um who we wanted to go with was like,
00:09:44
Speaker
Oh, it's 3% fee. And we already knew that the market rate is 1.5. Right. And so we were just like, oh, cool. 1.5, or we're just going to chuff off because we know that that's what we can get elsewhere. And they're like, oh, I guess on this occasion, we can do 1.5. Yeah, mate. Right. and um ah so And then I think there's also um having an appreciation of the stuff that is really valuable to the other party that you have, that isn't that important to you because those are things that when you're doing your sort of trading in the negotiation, those are the things that um could be sort of deceptively valuable um and could help you get more of what you want. um I think another thing I would say about preparing for negotiation is just understanding the time pressure. I think time plays such an interesting dimension
00:10:40
Speaker
yeah the negotiation and yeah yeah Yeah, really important. if few If you're the person so important, Susan, if you're the person who's under time pressure, you're immediately at a disadvantage. Like this is what's going to drive the the kind of the final outcome of the negotiation. um It can be really amazing if time is on your side and it can also sound be really amazing as a motivator.
00:11:08
Speaker
um so Yeah, it's completely change in negotiation concept. Yeah,
Negotiation Tactics and Strategies
00:11:13
Speaker
timing is timing is everything. So they say, but like, certainly in negotiations, trying to negotiate when there is no time pressure, which is quite an unusual situation. But it's also like, it just makes things so much harder. Yeah. And, you know, it it can really, really change the nature of the negotiation. You know, if you if you're applying for a job,
00:11:34
Speaker
And there's a time pressure, for example, the job that I um applied to at the current organization I'm in, that was a maternity cover role. So they were under a lot of time pressure to get me in the door, which gave me more leverage because I wasn't under pressure. and ah So that's really helpful. um And I think more generally speaking about pressures and negotiation, there is a lot to be said about whether there is a kind of perception of pressure or not, you basically want to look like you could walk away and just, if if the deal's not good enough, you're going to bounce, no problem. Yeah, definitely. Well, you do you don't want to look thirsty for the deal. it If you start to look desperate, then the it smells, desperation smells. um Yeah, agreed. And they they will catch that. So even if you are desperate, I would just encourage you to try not to look
00:12:28
Speaker
desperate, you know come across as desperate. um And like, more generally, if you're willing to walk away, the kind of economic circumstances of that are that the supply outstrips the demand, and you can go elsewhere. So like, if you're haggling in the market, where there's lots of fruit stores, you can go like, I don't like that price, I'm going to go somewhere else. um Yeah, but you know, there are examples of that in other contexts as well. So um I think that's important to note, I would also say, I sort of treat the negotiation a bit like chess, which is where you have to play a few steps ahead. And yeah, if you have your argument, you need to be aware of their counter arguments and then what you would respond to those to win, right? That's how you get to a checkmate. But um that will also help you feel more prepared for but or less likely to be caught off guard.
00:13:25
Speaker
when negotiations sort of go through their roller coaster, which they always do. And that's part of the fun, I think. Interesting. Gosh, you have nerves of steel. I think that like my preferred negotiating style is like get to an agreement, like very, very, very fast. I think it in in a way that's negative for negotiation, I think that my tendency is like, I just like to get decisions made, just like push for a decision, push for something, push, push, push, push, push all the time. And I think like a real development area
00:14:01
Speaker
in this particular domain for me is to like be patient and like let let the negotiations kind of run for longer for better but better outcomes. Because I think I probably maybe give too much for the sake of getting it done. And I think that's probably ma means that I'm not an amazing negotiator, which is something that I would say is like, I'm not, I'm definitely not an amazing negotiator. So I'm learning i'm learning from you, Beck.
00:14:28
Speaker
What you suffer from Annie is your get shit done syndrome. where it's Chronic and it's serious. It's also what makes you amazing. um ah So you know, don't don't beat yourself up for that. that's That's how you've got to where you've got to. um I would also say like,
00:14:52
Speaker
not everyone needs to be a negotiator. like I have stepped in as a negotiating negotiating advocate for someone before when they were not in a particular position to be able to do that. And it's really a lot easier to negotiate on behalf of other people than it is for yourself, as you said earlier. um So i I think if anyone's like really nervous about it, they should just think about, is there anyone else in the room or who could be in the room who would help that?
00:15:17
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's really good advice, actually. I think a lot of people never, ever think about asking anyone for help in this dimension. And I think that can be really, really valuable. So yeah, I think that's a great thing to to flag. Okay, so on like, we're in the middle of a negotiation, me and you, Beck. Yeah.
00:15:39
Speaker
How do you sort of conduct yourself within a negotiation? Like what are the rules of play?
00:15:49
Speaker
Well, because I've done so much prep for this negotiation, I'm coming in cool and confident, but noted not a dickhead. Note number one, not a dickhead. i what What I'm coming across as is not submissive.
00:16:08
Speaker
um I will not roll over and let you sniff my tummy. like um It's not the time to be avoidant, it's the time to be direct and confident. um i I tend to feel with negotiations, it really depends on the scenario, but it these don't have to be tense discussions. Like you can, you want, I agree. You want everyone to feel good about the outcome. Even if they feel like they've lost a bit along the way, you still want it to be a win-win overall. And odds are you are probably going to be working with these people afterwards. And it's actually just more important to keep big ap picture relationship in there rather than being a bit stingy and then leaving a sour taste in everyone's mouth. Like firm but fair I think is better than
00:16:57
Speaker
you know, trying to squeeze every little bit out of it. I think that is really brilliant advice, especially flagging that in the majority the majority of cases, you will work with these people again in some form. So yeah, you shouldn't leave it like wanting to kill someone, I don't think, wanting to kill each other.
00:17:18
Speaker
Yeah, i mean ideally not. That's like quite a serious escalation yeah for negotiation, murder. um i think I think also on on this context of um people that you're likely to work with, if you're entering a kind of new partnership or something um with the organization that you're representing, you do want to start at feeling quite exciting and visionary in and your pitch, right? Like you want to get them really jazzed, because basically, it all goes downhill from there in a negotiation when you start picking off bits in like people So you need to start from like a really good high point. um I imagine for you, that's probably your like pitch deck from Alva. Yeah, yeah. And and obviously you're like, ah ah in in that particular example, you know, in the fun, in the fundraise, you have got them really excited. You have spent a lot of energy getting them to a yes, which is like the the hardest part is like, yeah, we want to enter this partnership.
00:18:16
Speaker
And I think that the way it usually works or or or the way it it can work in a good ah good version of this is like once they're sort of over the line and committed, it is a very positive discussion because it is about like how do we want to collaborate together moving forward on a very long-term partnership. So getting to a yes is hard and takes a lot of like energy but then the tone is is generally like very constructive because everyone is really excited so that's what I mean about you know
00:18:50
Speaker
It's a very stressful scenario for a lot of people, but it's often not a stressful, like horrible negotiation because everyone's like, yeah, we're it, let's go. If anything, I could do with that being slightly dialed down and the whole kind of thing. but that But there we go. That's just my preferred way. um So yeah, I think, um I think it's it's definitely of a very positive tone. And when most of the things where I, you know, if you're like buying a house, right, someone wants to sell it, you want to buy it, you're excited about buying it, they're excited about buying the next house. You know, like, lots of negotiations, I think, are quite positive. Though I do think the skill of negotiation maybe has a bad brand of like, oh, yeah, negotiating, oh, that's so hard, I don't want to think about doing that.
00:19:39
Speaker
Yeah, i I actually think people just avoid negotiation because but I think they see it as too synonymous with conflict. and'm like it's It's not conflict. um They're different things. and i would I would say, though, another thing on a slightly different type of negotiation, um there are circumstances where you can play really hardball. This is probably not an professional context. This is probably, with thought you're playing real hardball on the holiday negotiation. and But i but ah for example, my beloved Fiat 500, who I called Bettina, we went on holiday and some builders poured some concrete on it and um then they scratched it off and our neighbour saw and took loads of pictures when we came back. She was like, those guys really messed up your car. And I was like,
00:20:34
Speaker
Great, you're paying for the car building company or I am going to the police. And they're like, yes, great, we will cover the cost. And then the car was free. So, you know, just when when you're in scenarios like that, just this is like your time to be really ballsy, and you know, threaten some things like the Consumer Rights Act or the police or whatever.
00:20:57
Speaker
Um, you know, knowing your rights. Okay. So knowing your rights, you're acting calm, you're acting professional. What, what else are the rules of
Setting the Right Negotiation Terms
00:21:08
Speaker
engagement? Like what are the tips when you're in the middle of a negotiation? What are the tips for how you should conduct yourself? I think if you need, if you need to think about something, like if this is a live conversation that we're having, it is i think I think we should break the negotiation and have a pause if I don't feel like I can kind of really think about my position in the discussion properly so like take a break reassess come back I don't think you could like we I couldn't negotiate for hours and hours on end that's just like mental Olympics but yeah um I think taking a break and reassessing before going back in is fine um I would also say um
00:21:54
Speaker
just as a general rule of thumb for negotiation, that if you don't have the power, you should probably never give an ultimatum um because you will lose. I think you you would see this sometimes in like, in a work context when someone's like, you need me to, I need you to pay anymore.
00:22:13
Speaker
or I'm gonna quit. And you're like, yeah, yeah, weak, very weak. See you, sucker. um ah Nice knowing you. Goodbye. Good luck getting your higher pay job. um ah Stuff like that. Like, you you can't just sort of throw that around willy-nilly. It's powerless and it and it makes you look shit at negotiating. Yeah, you don't want to go to the extreme immediately.
00:22:36
Speaker
Right, like not in many scenarios, I don't think. um So, although actually saying like the, let's say we're talking about numbers and um you're gonna pay me something. okay And you've got a rate that you wanna pay me and I'm like, how can I get the most out of Annie? um I will go in at my top number, i the top number that doesn't seem, that that doesn't seem,
00:23:05
Speaker
like I'm a fucking idiot. That's an important caveat. so Would be surprised how many people's top number is like, what are you talking about? It just makes you look so dumb if you do that. So yeah your top number has to be within the realms of some sort of of realism. um But I will always start at the top and you will always start at the bottom and then we'll end up meeting the middle.
00:23:32
Speaker
kind of always works. Yeah and one thing I like can't remember where I heard this but I have found it like quite helpful because I I have been a consultant and I have therefore been negotiating a day rate like quite often and yeah one one thing I listened to before I started consulting said like you know no one's gonna like no one's gonna have your back except for like you in these discussions so you have to like push for yourself a bit. And I was definitely not someone who would have like gone in with a silly number ever, if anything, you know, possibly the opposite. But after I'd heard that, I was like, okay, I'm going to decide what I think is like fair for me, like what I would pay for me. And then I'm going to add 20% because I'm probably undervaluing myself.
00:24:23
Speaker
And I'm gonna say that that is my baseline. Like, I'm not gonna go lower than this this number. I love this girl math, honey. Yes, girl math. And um I think that actually got me to what I genuinely feel like is a fair number. And I haven't gone below it.
00:24:44
Speaker
I'm going to write this in my iPhone notes as soon as we finish this conversation. That is a small piece of genius. Thank you for my knowledge. I don't add much, but every now and again, there's a nugget of wisdom that comes out. That was an accidental one. I think that was a great one, adding just adding 20%, and then saying, not not below. I absolutely love that. um how did you How did you feel you went about benchmarking your day rate when you were starting consulting. It was really hard because um as ah as an ex-founder, you have like a lot of skills, many of them you don't have any kind of deep expertise in. So you are that like real generalist. And what I found was like, it's hard to benchmark yourself like because ah there aren't that many other the generalists and also
00:25:41
Speaker
if it was like, let's say it was an ops piece of work and someone was like, I want you to do a people strategy for my organization. Well, I'm not the best qualified to do that. I have done my own people strategies or I had at that point, but like I i wouldn't have, I wouldn't have been as well qualified as like an, an X HR lead. I just, I just wouldn't have.
00:26:03
Speaker
So um I think it was actually more about like me backing myself for like how quickly I could solve problems and I sort of was like oh I would only pitch for work properly if I knew they needed a gen like a generalist or like something I could really do and something I felt really confident in and then I pitched yeah on what I would on that that girl math equation because I didn't like some people would react to my day rate and be like, what? And other people would be like, yeah, of course. And i I was getting like such disparate reactions from companies that were a similar size with a similar amount of money that I was like, it seems like my value is based on how much you need a generalist. So I'm just gonna be confident in my like bottom number and I'm not gonna go below that. And then I have to look for these opportunities of where they need like this kind of generalist person.
00:27:02
Speaker
And um that's how I did it. i do think there ah I do think there are ways that you can benchmark that are more useful than this, but i I'm not sure it's, a I think it's an art, not a science. Yeah. And did you did you negotiate from your rate or would you just say, this is my baseline if you're not hitting it, I'm out? No, I did negotiate. I negotiated based on how much I wanted to work with people. So I wouldn't go below my personal like bottom line.
00:27:32
Speaker
Depending on the type of organization, I would say a number, transparently for larger organizations like corporates, that number was extraordinarily higher than for a pre-seed startup.
00:27:46
Speaker
um But yeah, if I really wanted to do something or if I could like fit it in around other work, I would like negotiate um on the number. And I think, you know, as as having been a small business owner for a time, I was also very empathetic to people being like, actually that 20 pounds an hour, like does matter to me. And I would be like, yeah, okay. I can actually accept that as long as it doesn't go past this bottom.
00:28:17
Speaker
threshold. So, um, so yeah, I definitely, definitely negotiated. I definitely, and I negotiated on things like length of contract, amount of time, because obviously if someone is booking you for like a whole year as a freelancer, very hard with IR35, I would not recommend it.
00:28:34
Speaker
um But if someone is booking you, let's see. It's a tax thing where like really really freelancers shouldn't do full-time roles. It's sort of like bad juju and the tax man, you know, vibe. um So let's say someone was booking me for three months of work. That meant I didn't have to do any business development.
00:28:55
Speaker
for three months. And I could obviously like negotiate more because I know I've got fixed work for that amount of time. Whereas if someone wants to give me an hour of work every two weeks, I'd be like, Oh, for that hour and the context switching that that's going to involve for me, that's actually going to be a lot more per hour than I would charge at the hourly rate for three months of fixed work security for me. So yeah, I think there's lots of different factors that can kind of come into your own price when you're freelancing.
00:29:25
Speaker
Super interesting. um I think what you say on the context of what um what the other party values is really important. um I think, but like for example, just to go back to the house thing because it's all I can think about.
00:29:43
Speaker
um yeah i am I am very visibly pregnant and I'm looking to buy a house and we have a fine. And so I will really highly value houses that are not in chains or houses that are already off and running and where we can move in and do no work.
00:30:02
Speaker
before the baby is due. And because I value that so much, I already know that price is what we are going to have to compromise on because if I wasn't pregnant, I would just sort of hardball forever. but um But I think like just understanding what the other side is going through and what's important to them is really important as the kind of conversation evolves over time.
Negotiation Roles and When to Walk Away
00:30:24
Speaker
yeah um And then one other thing I would add on the us, us currently negotiating. Like if, if there was more than one of me, I, I, not everyone likes this. Some might classify this as a bad negotiating tactic, but good cop, bad cop, I am quite a fan of. um Interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Go on. I assume that you're a bad cop. Every time. Every time.
00:30:55
Speaker
but but like But I'm also fine to be bad cop because actually, I mean, this I feel like this is actually just going to translate directly into being a parent. that exact thing I was like, oh, I'm glad that you're comfortable with it because this is your life now. Tom and I always discuss it. um ah and In a kind of work context, for example, um ah we're in a vendor discussion with someone and it's me ah managing the kind of commercials of it and the technical team doing technical discovery. And it's actually more important for them to have a really good relationship to progress those technical discussions. But I will be the one who as the purse holder is like, no, we don't like that. um still be silly um But equally, if the technical team has something that they're really fucked off about,
00:31:51
Speaker
I can, I can rep that for them and damage their relationship. um I think that's important. I mean, um so I, I got that advice from my sale advisors when I, when I sold my company. So I didn't actually like want to have a job with, um,
00:32:12
Speaker
the acquirers, but had I wanted to, they'd said, it's really, really important that you have a middleman when you're negotiating like your salary and your role. um Because of one of the things you said, which is like, you want this to all be like good vibes, and you don't want to be the one being like, this is the number, this is the deal, like I'm walking away, like this is, you know, a really firm negotiation for your role.
00:32:36
Speaker
um but yeah they were like it's always good practice if if you can and important negotiations to like have a face of the negotiation that isn't you um and that was a really big learning for me i honestly wouldn't have even considered that had i been wanting to join them i would have just felt like oh this is a normal um job negotiation but it it like it wasn't it was sort of a bigger conversation than that and you had a lawyer do that right and you really rated him i i love I love my lawyer, Simon. I would recommend him to everyone. He's a Swiss army knife who I trust with my life. um He did some of it. I also would say that like my advisors did a lot of stuff on my behalf. So like the actual kind of, um they they sort of did a lot of a lot of that heavy lifting actually. So um they were all really, really useful. Cause I just wasn't too,
00:33:30
Speaker
to another one of your points, like I personally was not in a place where I could have negotiated for myself at that point in time. but That was really what was going on for the majority of that discussion. It wasn't really about me. It was about the company. But like, I couldn't have advocated or negotiated for myself if that had been the setup, because I just was not in a like frame of mind to do it. So they very kindly did like support me in the moments where there was negotiations about me, they totally did that. And they really They really, really helped me. So, yeah. Legends. Absolute, absolute legends. Love them all. Oh, so good. Okay. Let's talk about when you, let's just park for now that the negotiation's gone really well. Okay, great. Let's talk about when you walk away from a deal.
00:34:21
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I'm probably not, I'm probably not like the one to to ask about this because i would I would walk away from like everything quite quickly. I think my whole vibe in life is like, at any moment, yeah, I can just bounce.
00:34:38
Speaker
it's i think your vibe is speed speed speed fashion yeah i'm like if you are indecisive about especially if the negotiation is about me like if you are indecisive about me zero time zero time for this like this is an obvious it's an obvious decision to make so come on let's keep it moving let's keep moving um but no i mean i do think that factually, when I think about important negotiations, I think the points at which I would really have walked away from big things is if I got any real red flags, like I don't want to enter into this agreement. This is no longer relevant to me. you know My gut instinct on this feels wrong. I think that's one really important thing. ah Another is like, yeah, if I felt like any form of like, lying,
00:35:33
Speaker
And I think like you put, you put this in, in your notes as well, like dishonesty and stuff. I think that is a real, it undermines like what I would say like the rules of the game are, if you are like absolutely like wildly lying or sensing that people are lying. Or even just like withholding information, right? Like you sort of enter, enter the playing field in good faith that you're both there.
00:35:58
Speaker
for the right reasons, but if you feel like the other person is just trying to get one up on you for the sake of it, like that's not a good fight. Yeah, and 100%, if this is also, like as as for many people it will be, the most relevant example is pay negotiations, right? like That's what most people when they listen to a career podcast will think, like pay. Negotiating pay, negotiating an offer, and if you really feel like someone is,
00:36:25
Speaker
an office stage, like low balling you to such an amount that it's like offensive, which I have absolutely had.
Pay and Job Offer Negotiations
00:36:31
Speaker
I'm like, sorry, what are we, what have we even been doing here for the last five hours? Like, absolutely not. I'm not even talking, like that is, it is done. We're like done here. This conversation is just done. Because I think that like, there's no way that you want to We want to feel that your value, your what you feel your value is and what they perceive your value is, is so misaligned. Like, I think that's really bad if there's a really big gap. um And then I think if it's whilst you're in the role, right, sometimes pay negotiations are really hard. There's bandings, there's stuff. But if someone is like freezing your pay for a long time and they cannot give you a reason, like, you know, are you really in a negotiation or is there just like,
00:37:16
Speaker
nothing to really negotiate over here and then I would say that's something to just walk away from because you can lose a lot of energy if you're not like really in a ah proper negotiation. Yeah I mean like that's a real way to sort of suck the life out of enjoying work. um I think what I would say repping the large orgs is that typically once a year there is a pay review. and Yeah yeah. yeah If you are on time and have all your stuff sorted out for your pay review and your boss advocates for you and pushes it through, there is one time a year in which that is more straightforward than any other time. And that's prepped for that moment. You've got to be prepped way in advance for that moment. You've got to know when that moment is, you've got to know what you're asking for, you've got to be lovely to your boss for ages, you know, um all of those things.
00:38:14
Speaker
um i would to your point about like people just totally labeling you. and there is There is obviously a um ah very well-known well-known phrase called don't negotiate with terrorists, which is like just generally a good point, just think about how you define terrorists in your field. But like there is no point in having a negotiation with someone who is just totally out of line or unrealistic or or just like has bad motivation. Like it's not it's not worth doing that at all. You will just waste your time and then probably still lose out something anyway. I do think more generally um there there is a sort of gray area where maybe not for you because
00:39:03
Speaker
you move with speed, maybe it's for which is where you start to think about um what is, at what point in the negotiation does this stop looking like a good deal? And that will differ for everyone. um But for me, that would be like, they're starting to be unreasonable. Continuing this conversation isn't gonna get me anything else out of it that's worth,
00:39:31
Speaker
more than the effort I have to put in, like a really minor example of that is when people want to squabble over splitting the bill. And I'm like, I'm losing the will to live, I will pay an extra 10 pounds to stop.
00:39:43
Speaker
time That's when I think it's time to start like evaluating what's going on. um And then just more generally, like, are you compromising too much on your red line area? Yeah, yeah. That's when I think you know. Yeah.
00:39:58
Speaker
Okay, right. Let's get into the specifics because as I said two minutes ago, I do think that most people will think about negotiation as as it relates to pay rises specifically. So I would love to get your tips on what works well when negotiating a pay rise and then what might not work so well. We're talking about pay rise or a new job. Pay rise. I think you're in the organization Oh, this is so much harder. Sorry. We can do the new job one if you prefer. We can start there. You've got to do both. You've got to do both. Okay. Well, let me, let me start with a new job. Okay. Um, so you've obviously benchmarked, you've researched some data and you've asked some people, um, that applies to both scenarios of, um, new job and a pay rise.
00:40:58
Speaker
Um, when you are at the offer stage, um, as a general rule of thumb, I think it's safe to assume that any organization has a five to 10 K wiggle room up for whatever they've pitched you at that generally there's always a bit of allowance somewhere. Usually it would be bonkers if there wasn't one. So, but that, and that's if they've advertised the salary, right?
00:41:27
Speaker
Yeah, but even so, like, let's say, thanks and yeah a marketing manager and they've been like, but we're delighted to offer you 50K. I'd be like, ha ha ha, not taking less than 60. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So once you get the offer, you could assume that that number that they've put you at, there is five, did you say five to 10% or five to 10K above it? Oh, it probably depends on the salary. I said K, but, um,
00:41:56
Speaker
might not be at the junior level that that might be. Yeah, off yeah, yeah. yeah um At the more senior level, probably K. Yeah, but lower percentage. um I think it's also, you have to have that conversation at the right time. You have, I think, I don't know about you, you've interviewed more recently than I have. But typically the pay is like the last thing to come up at the office stage for me.
00:42:21
Speaker
um in most of the interview processes that I've done, which I find really fucking annoying, um but that is the reality of it. Is that what is that your experience as well?
00:42:33
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I guess there's quite a lot of there's quite a lot that's already been ironed out before you actually get the number. Yeah, and so when you first receive the number is when you negotiate the offer.
00:42:46
Speaker
Do not accept the offer and then negotiate on salary. Not possible. Nuebueno, we're already done. We're not done yet. Yeah, of course. I think I did that in my first job and they were like, what?
00:43:01
Speaker
It's like, I've decided I'm worth more. You're like, ha you're an idiot. um yeah I also think just on that, one thing I thought of before this episode was I remember someone negotiating, um like trying to negotiate quite a big pay rise at their three month probation, which they passed.
00:43:23
Speaker
And that was, that went down like a sack of shit. Like for sure. So if you're not happy with your offer, don't say yes to it. Don't say yes thinking you can like wiggle up when you get there. Like that's actually really unusual. And in some organizations, incredibly hard.
00:43:42
Speaker
So, um yeah, I just, I would say like, the time to negotiate is definitely at the offer stage. It's not at probation. It will probably be for most organisations, six months to a year after you join. Yeah, I would say it's closer to a year at least. Agreed, agreed. If someone came to me after six months and said they wanted to pay rise and they just started, I'm like, pardon me, but like, you don't know anything about the company still. So,
00:44:11
Speaker
ah like If someone did that to me, I'd just be like, ah I don't know what you're talking about, but that's just. Sorry, what language are you speaking to me? I don't know if you could restart that conversation. Sorry, sorry. You can restart this conversation in six to nine months. Correct, correct. um ah So then I think also when you're at the office stage,
00:44:34
Speaker
um It is about the whole package. This has become more important to me as I've got older. But like for me, it's about flexi working. It's not just about pay. um you know if you If you want Friday afternoons off, could you do an extra hour Monday to Thursday to make that happen? And is that OK so that you don't get a pay cut? you know All of those sorts of things um are up for grabs. like When I joined my current organization, um I was midway through my MBA. and um I wanted to continue to do it. And that was a big part of the negotiation. And they said, um we're not sure and it will take HR a million years to find out whether we can do that because it's all to do with the government apprenticeship team. And I just said, okay, well, I really want to do that. And if we both work in good faith that um I were going to aim for me to do that, um I'm willing to accept
00:45:33
Speaker
this salary higher with the risk that it might not come through. open But we'll try. yeah um And then it worked and it was fine. So I think there's just like, there's a lot of things that you can negotiate on that aren't just pay or use them as leverage. um Okay. Shall we talk about, or actually one more thing on just a new offer, getting a kind of offer.
00:46:00
Speaker
yeah I think if you pretend to have a hard deadline and another offer when you don't have one is a really bad idea. Yeah, I agree. um like You just have no leverage and you'll just annoy them. like There are lots of legitimate reasons why interviews and stuff takes a long time, especially in a big company. so I also wouldn't ever read a delay as ah an assumption on the outcome either. but and giving a false urgency and like just generally being a bit dishonest um in your negotiation as well will probably read. um Yeah, yeah. yeah i Yeah, I agree with that. I agree with that. Okay, let's talk about in role pay rise. This is like such a hard one, because like, you know, I also face this with myself every day, but um everyone wants more pay, women deserve more pay.
00:46:55
Speaker
Until gender pay gap is closed, we will continue to advocate for more pay. um Amen. Amen. So I do think to our earlier point, there is a minimum time that you need to have demonstrated your effectiveness at. I wouldn't do it before a year, personally. um i would I would be pretty annoyed if someone did it to me under a year. I'd just like your you're crazy. That's not going to happen. That's just not how it works. And I think that's for a few reasons.
00:47:30
Speaker
um I don't think you really get amazing at your job before six months. I would agree with that, it' especially in more senior roles. especially more senior roles. Yeah. Cause there's just much more complexity, much more stakeholder management. Like there's just much more information that is unsaid that you have to understand and take on board. So I i would agree with that. Yeah. And I also think the point at which you want to ask for more pay is when you've demonstrated, this is like a combination of things, but like you've demonstrated,
00:48:08
Speaker
high performance and like business outcomes. And I don't think you can do that in a short period of time. um And you can evidence that and say like, I did this work and this work saved 4 million pounds um or whatever. ah or um Or you have like considerably more responsibility. I do think if you are being given like an extra team or an extra discipline or an extra function that should probably, at whatever time that occurs, come with a question of like, what are you paying me more to do that? um Like, if you have more responsibility and responsibility change, I think that's fair. ah But like, again, I wouldn't expect anything enormous. I think like, maybe a 5% for that type of thing.
00:48:58
Speaker
Would you say in general, in like large organisations, like the one you work in, is there an amount where it's like unusual to even be able to get above that? So when you say like 5%, for example, that to me is like, is that like a litmus test of like, most pay rises are around kind of 5% and if you asked for like 15%, you would be wildly, you know, off.
00:49:28
Speaker
I think you'd have to have like many years of like high performance and like a a tsunami of goodwill about your existence in the organization for something like that to go through. um You know, I also, the organization I work in is sort of quasi public. So i I imagine that the salary rules are probably more restrictive than um but evil corporates.
00:49:56
Speaker
Um, and um, uh, I think just also all salaries are banded. Um, and so you have, there is always going to be an upper limit on what you can get within your band. And most organizations I've worked in with banded salaries will not move from the top of the band. And in order to get another pay rise, you need to get a promotion and yeah those things don't come like particularly easily either. So.
00:50:25
Speaker
That's why I would say if it's just in role for a pay rise, I wouldn't expect that much each time. What I will say is that the organization that I am in does an annual... It's really fun. I've never watched an organization like this with this. There's an annual negotiation with the union where they negotiate pay rises.
00:50:46
Speaker
and um ah they're meant to do things like address cost of living and inflation and blah, blah, blah. So actually, for the last three years, without me doing anything, I've got a sort of up to 5% increase each year. Yeah, because of inflation adjustments and stuff. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But I don't know that every organization does that. And so if my organization didn't do that, I would definitely be factoring that into my quest for a pay rise. Because like the real effect of your income is totally deteriorating. If you factor in inflation, that's not been added to over the last three years or so. um So I would add that to your... Yeah, I agree. i ah The one corporate I had worked in did did do that as well. So did have a kind of weighted annual system that kind of
00:51:36
Speaker
took into account inflation, cost of living, et cetera, et cetera, and then adjusted pay differently at different bandings based on based on that. um So, yeah. good And and one one other thing that I would say about negotiating pay in an organisation, in a role that you're already in, is it doesn't have to be just base pay, you can negotiate on bonus. And bonus tends to be where there might be a bit more discretion, or like it's slightly less controversial, or um there might be a higher variance in the bonus schemes that are about that has more flexibility for you to to tap into. So um I would obviously prefer base pay, price but um that is that is a good back pocket for you.
00:52:25
Speaker
And I think if you're in a, in a a company where you have some ownership, everyone always forgets that they can negotiate on equity.
Equity Negotiations
00:52:33
Speaker
um Definitely, definitely recommend. What have I missed about in-roll pay rises?
00:52:42
Speaker
Yeah, I would say the the main one is that you can negotiate on equity and ownership at any point. It's not just when you enter a company. And um I guess as a company owner, if someone came to me and they they didn't want more pay, but they wanted more equity, if you are genuinely happy with that, then you are reflecting that you value your ownership stake in the company and that is a usually a positive reflection of your like loyalty, your sort of optimism about like what you think this company will do. um I think a lot of ah especially people who are maybe in their first startup role and they get an equity
00:53:21
Speaker
part of their offer, think that that initial offer is it. You can never ask for more shares or more ownership at any point again and that's, that isn't true. Can you, for for the lay people, brackets me, who don't understand how this works, what is like a good equity offer if you're starting, let's say Well, it massively, it varies. um It varies based on the value of the shares, it which is the size of the company and how much money they've raised. So, um and what happens is every time you raise more money, the shareholders from the last round get more diluted because you you reduce the value per share. So let's say I was at 5% before your fund raised, now I'm at 2.5%. Exactly. um yeah
00:54:11
Speaker
So i i do think that if you're I do think that if you're a really high value employee, you can talk about the value of your shares at every fundraising point, like for sure. I think that is a completely valid commercial discussion to have with your manager. um And Yeah, what else would I say is, ah so they they can be worth nothing shares. So that's the risk is like, if the company never sells, goes under, fails, you know, all of that equity never comes to anything. It's never worth anything. But if there is an exit event, it can on the other side be worth loads. You know, you can get tens of thousands if you have a significant stake. Equity usually vests over a period of time. So if if I gave you 5% of my company on day one,
00:55:03
Speaker
most equity offers have a vesting schedule of four or five years. So you use normal words for the non-finance listeners. Yeah. So you would get, um you'd get an offer that said, Beck, I'm going to give you 5% that the you you earn over the five years that you're here.
00:55:24
Speaker
And they do something called a one year cliff, which means that if you leave before a year, you get nothing. But after, but every year you get 20%. So providing that you are here and you give a year of value, you get your 20% of your 5%, which is one.
00:55:42
Speaker
But, and then you get one-twelfth of 1% every month, vesting over the years you have you have. People can also change those vesting schedules, so it can be four years, it can be longer, it can be like eight years. um That's all something that you actually can also negotiate on, which people never negotiate on, ever, ever. I've never had anyone say, oh, you've given me a five-year vesting schedule, I'd like a four. I think that's,
00:56:09
Speaker
actually incredibly but like the difference between a four and a five or a four and an eight investing schedule is huge. um I would say some founders won't negotiate on that but like it you can ask you know you can ask all of these things. So let's say I have you've given me 5%, I've worked for two years, I quit. yeah What do I get? As long as you quit on good terms, you would get all of your vested 2.5%. Got it. If you um were fired and you were fired for like cause, you know, if you were fired for a certain really negative reason, there could there could be a reason to um not give you anything.
00:56:53
Speaker
So it is worth understanding like the terms of your shares. I think, that I think in some companies, if you're fired, you don't get any shares. So, um so you there should be a point at which you can read the kind of setup. Yeah. so and understand Me coming into your company, the the sort of me negotiating on equity, I have to be really confident that I'm going to stick around for a long time for that to be worth anything, right? Yes. And you have to be like really back the team and the company to actually have an exit event, which is something like only five or 10% of startups ever have any sort of exit event. um Let alone that pays back. In general, investors get paid back first.
00:57:39
Speaker
So you come after the investors. So only after everyone who has put money into this company gets their money back do you get anything. So that's another consideration is it you have to like these companies have to be quite successful if they have investors. Very different if it's bootstrapped company, you don't have investors because then you just get some if the company sells, you just get a nice little chunk. So I think that, you know,
00:58:03
Speaker
if you are like considering like a bootstrapped company and they offered you 5% of the company, that is a really like considerable offer. Like if that company sells for X million, you're getting like 5% of that. Like that's a very, that's a very but generous offer.
Conclusion and Farewell
00:58:22
Speaker
I would say if everyone listening 5% is a very generous offer on equity, absolutely huge, very unusual.
00:58:29
Speaker
because I started at an aggressive negotiating point. um Okay I think that is all we wanted to cover today. um Is there anything else you want to say on negotiating Annie or will we wave off our second season? Au revoir second season. Thank you everyone for listening and thank you so much for coming on this journey with us. Again we look forward to getting back in touch with you for season three. Thanks everyone. Bye.
00:59:01
Speaker
are um