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S2, E5 [Bonus!] The Career Coven: Listener Questions
73 Plays3 months ago
In this week’s episode of the Career Coven Bec and Annie answer a series of questions from the listeners. They cover:
- Is there a dream job for everyone?
- How to balance finding your ‘dream job’ with working where you are now?
- Should we all be purpose driven in our jobs?
- How can you change culture in a highly political organisation?
- What to do when you’re managing engineers that don’t like to change their behaviour…
And much more….
Enjoying this content? Please rate and subscribe on your preferred platform, and let us know what you think! hello@careercoven.com
Recommendations from this episode:
- Designing Your Life, Burnett and Evans
- Sir Wobbles wombat rescue Instagram account
- 5 Dysfunctions of a team, Lencioni and Leffert
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Format
00:00:06
Speaker
Hello. Hello. And welcome to The Career Coven. My name is Beck. And I'm Annie. And today, we're doing a bonus Q&A episode.
The Role of Listener Questions
00:00:16
Speaker
We are love our listener questions. They bring us Joy DeViv and help us shape all of our themes. And these are some that didn't necessarily fit exactly into a theme topic, but we wanted to answer anyway, because we love them. Yeah. Should we do it snippy snappy like the last one?
00:00:36
Speaker
You're never going to let me lift that down, are you? No, I'm not. A snippy snappy ep.
Challenges with Engineering Teams
00:00:42
Speaker
Yeah. Let me start with a question for you, Annie, then, seeing something snippy snappy. Yeah. Okay, working with engineering and hearing this is how it has always been done. Is this not a field of innovation? I love the outrage of this. I know who this was. Like, I know that I used to manage this person. I'm so sure of it.
00:01:02
Speaker
ah I think like putting innovation on like all engineering teams is probably like giving that part of work like way too much credit. like I think that engineering teams like can be incredibly innovative. They also can just be delivery units for like incredibly complicated services that just have to keep going. So I don't think that engineering teams are necessarily like the central hub of innovation.
00:01:32
Speaker
I would obviously bias like being more of a product person and say, I do think that that is more of the product team's role. And they work very closely with engineers to deliver it, and often need a lot of inputs from engineers to get their the ideas to a coherent stage. But I don't think that it's like just and on engineering to um innovate. I do think it's really, really common in engineering to hear, like this is how it's always been done.
00:02:00
Speaker
because there are things when you're running especially large organizations that just have to keep going and actually the grind of keeping something going might mean that people don't feel very creative about it. I think if you are trying to like change people's mindset, which I'm sort of talking directly to this person that I really think it is, it's like it is actually your job to get people to give people permission to think more creatively about their role and to think that it could be done a different way. So particularly if you are the product manager, if people keep saying stuff like this back to you, oh, you know, we wouldn't change that because that's how it's always been done. Just ask them why, like over and over again until they realize that they don't really understand why. And then say something like, how long does that take you doing it like that?
00:02:55
Speaker
you know And they'll say, oh, this takes me three days a week. And you're like, oh, OK. Well, to me, just externally, that feels quite mad that we're doing something. We can't really understand why we're doing it this way. there's no There's no real reason to do it this way. We could get to a different desired outcome a different way. And it takes you a really long time to do it. like Should we possibly think about whether there's a way to improve this?
00:03:20
Speaker
It might be that they don't feel that they've had permission to be, to think differently if it's always been done like this. um So yeah, I think it's kind of, in a way, your job to sort of coach that out of them a bit. Susan agrees. So that would be my answer to that one. But yeah, I also wouldn't put all of innovation onto engineering. I think that's a bit, it's a bit unfair on them. Oh, firm words have been
Navigating Internal Politics
00:03:43
Speaker
said.
00:03:43
Speaker
Okay, next question for you. I can't wait to hear your advice on this. What advice would you give when internal politics is limiting the potential success of your organization, particularly when you're not seemingly in a place to directly make things better? I would say, certainly for the organizations that I've worked in,
00:04:06
Speaker
internal politics always exists. um It happens literally everywhere. um They all have slightly different flavours and guises and players, but um they tend to remain an issue that every literally everyone has to deal with. So um I would say there's a level of acceptance you are going to have to reach that that is just what happens everywhere. And this is not necessarily a special situation.
00:04:34
Speaker
um Good advice. I'd say some internal politics is more damaging than others. um There's a book that I, I won't say which media organisation that felt very political um recommended it to me, but um there's one called The Five Dysfunctions of a Team. um It's quite a well known book, but it talks about um ah just like general dysfunction in an organization, the roles that people tend to play and levels of kind of defensiveness and stuff. Fundamentally, the the kind of solution to that is really around trust and accountability and clear roles and responsibilities. And those are the kind of bedrocks of um ah people functioning better in their organizations. Trust is really difficult. um And yeah, it's difficult to
00:05:27
Speaker
earn and maintain. And if someone continues to erode your trust, it's difficult to gain back. But I think there needs to be um any any activities that will help you build trust, I think is particularly important. The second part of the question was around um this person not feeling like they necessarily have the ability to directly make things better. Hmm. I think that's an interesting phrasing.
00:05:56
Speaker
I actually feel like every person is important in an organisation and every person has influence. so I particularly on culture and particularly on politics. How I approach work is that i I'm literally on no one's side. I'm here to do my job. um I'm not here for cliques or for friendship groups or allies or any of that bullshit, and I'm just here to do my job and sort of take a Switzerland mode to most of it. I'm almost like you're kind of like an external consultant, basically. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where you just look at things factually, you have a nice relationship with everyone, but you don't pursue an agenda and and people like people don't really come to me to gossip either. um Like, i I think you can
00:06:48
Speaker
be more influential on the culture and internal politics than you think. And that, yeah, um your kind of degree of participation in it or, um ah you know, challenge, you can probably try and say like, this is so political and I want to do a big cultural change initiative and like obviously, some people have those jobs and like, God bless them. But I think that I think they're really in important. um But you know, if if I was, um I don't know, Joe blogs in an organization, and I just put in a meeting with the CEO and say like, this is bullshit, because like, marketing
00:07:27
Speaker
doesn't like sales and sales things, marketing out, doing their job. And then the tech team says the sales team over promises and we can't deliver and then they get angry. And then you're like, this is the story that every organization has ever told itself ever. And you're like, cool. Yeah, it's literally like, I have actually heard this before. This is the five dysfunctions really brings work down into a very simple thing. And and the CEO will probably be like, oh no, that sounds so frustrating. And then we'll do nothing.
00:07:56
Speaker
So ah I would say you can take a more of an individual agent of change approach to this and model best practice for others. I think that that kind of behavior is contagious in a good way. Yeah, i I agree. I totally agree with that. Question for you.
Handling Personal Questions at Work
00:08:12
Speaker
yeah this is This is an interesting one. My team directly asked me about my plans to start a family. Is this normal?
00:08:22
Speaker
I think it probably is more normal than I would want it to be but yeah, I don't like love that it's normal. Like I don't think, um I think it is very common for women of a certain age especially if you get married and people know about it or stuff like that to like get casually asked questions like this and I think that to be honest, that shouldn't really happen. Not unless you have a relationship with that person that often moves into a like more personal friendship domain. I think it it does matter how it's asked. So like I'm sure if Francesca asked you about your family plans last year, you would have been like, yeah, of course. you know i' been
00:09:13
Speaker
totally trusting with her, able to talk about everything that you want, totally fine. I think it's very different if you're like, boss two levels up, casually sees you after a meeting and says like, oh, you know, I heard you just got married, are you gonna have kids yet? I think that like, that's a bit more like, sorry, what the fuck do you think I am, like a cow or something like that. No, like that's none of your business, frankly. um I do think there is, not that I'm excusing it, I do think there are generational differences that sometimes come into play. I do think sometimes people ask these questions very casually, very in a very kind of sloppy manner. I don't think it's always meant to cause any form of harm. I don't think it always has an agenda. I i do think this does happen a lot, but I don't think it should happen really.
00:10:05
Speaker
um And it's very different if you volunteer it. So like in my workplace, it would be totally normal for me to be like, I am fucking terrified of having kids. I don't know if I want to, blah, bla blah, bla blah, blah. We are a women's health company. That is like such a normal conversation. We can talk to each other about that stuff. It's never going to affect anyone's progression. It's not a thing. That's just not something that would happen where I work. Unfortunately, that is not the case everywhere. So I think you do have to be a little bit mindful.
00:10:34
Speaker
um But yeah, I think it's probably more normal than I would hope. Right, you.
Dealing with Difficult Colleagues
00:10:41
Speaker
We are really snippy snappy today. but How do you deal with a toxic work colleague? I feel like this also might be maybe a bit timely.
00:10:51
Speaker
Yes, there was a different question I was going to answer. I think you've moved this one up based on the conversation that we had off the microphone about how my day is going. um So I don't love the word toxic. I think it's sort of banded around in a way that like, yeah, it's not very helpful.
00:11:15
Speaker
Um, I definitely have colleagues that I have extremely difficult relationships with that are not productive. If that is kind of what we're talking about here. Yes, let's say it is. That is fairly normal. I probably work with about 250 stakeholders in the organization. Like i not, not directly, but like, um, they will receive emails from me or instructions or whatever. I probably work closely with like 40. I'd say of those.
00:11:44
Speaker
I'll have a difficult relationship, with probably two of them. So that's the kind of ratio of who I put in the like, I've really got to think about how I reply to this kind of. Right. Yeah. Fuck it. I find this obviously very difficult. I think everyone does. My current mode, I'm not going to profess that I know how to do this well, by the way. No one does. No one does. I'm just going to answer with an anecdote. Great.
00:12:14
Speaker
ah There was a particular ah piece of work that is a transformation program. And as we're transformation programs, you sort of hand it back to the business um and you move on. And we've just, but we're at the tail end of a massive one, handing back some responsibilities, getting an extreme amount of pushback for handing them back. um And I don't think the situation has been handled particularly well like ah at kind of lots of different levels for lots of different reasons.
00:12:45
Speaker
Um, uh, you know, including, i I should probably admit here that some of it might be my fault. Um, shot don't hear those words from me very often. Very big of you. I know that was hard to say. I know. I actually just actually stumbled on my words a bit. Um, I, I knew that a tantrum was coming. I sent a straight back, really polite email, received a tantrum back.
00:13:12
Speaker
responded with what I would say, I think when I WhatsApp to you, I think I said, this is the end of my professional relationship with this person. um That was the context of my email. And um it was basically just stating facts about the status that it was in before and after we finished it and um resourcing capabilities and um and alignments of overall roles and responsibilities.
00:13:39
Speaker
Not a controversial message, but very firmly worded. And then I just said, I don't believe this is unreasonable. And I don't think that this is still up to debate, up for debate. But if you continue to believe it is, you can pick this up with my manager. um Interesting. ah And then, and then they replied. And I decided not to open this reply. um It was on a Friday and I was like, do you know what?
00:14:09
Speaker
I don't need this in my weekend, I have nothing else to say. And I opened it today, it was a Monday, and I, with the weekend behind me, just looked at it and I actually laughed when I opened it, because it's just, it's so silly. And sometimes I think you just need to have a moment of realising when you're in this like really tense engagement with someone who's being a bit petulant or being a bit stupid. If you take a step back, you're like, okay, it's kind of funny. Like,
00:14:39
Speaker
like this is so ridiculous like yeah and this behaviour is so extreme and like it's actually a bit embarrassing for them and like I care much less with a bit of perspective about it and so I would just encourage anyone who's dealing with a toxic work colleague to just see the silly version of it and I know that can be really hard and like just conduct yourself in a way that It's not embarrassing. like Don't lower yourself to what any behaviors they're doing. like yeah they They go low, we go high. like Just don't engage with it. like you don't need to It's embarrassing for them. It doesn't need to be embarrassing for you. ah we Agreed. Rise above it. And I think like one thing I would add on this is like if it's happening to you, it's probably happening to everyone. so like
00:15:27
Speaker
Yeah, don't think that like, don't don't let a like toxic relationship like really make you like self critique yourself because it's probably just how the this person treats like literally everyone. And you will quickly find that out at a casual work drinks or like over chats in the kitchen. So um yeah, I would definitely always like rise above it. Okay, next question.
Starting a New Job Successfully
00:15:51
Speaker
Tips for navigating a new workplace.
00:15:55
Speaker
Oh, timely. How timely. um I think enter with humility. Listen a lot. Like don't pretend you know stuff really quickly. ah The playbook from your last organization will not be the playbook for this organization. So don't be so arrogant.
00:16:19
Speaker
um I think that try and meet people, try and spend your first few weeks like really meeting people, getting to know everyone. um i would I always go in with like quite a structured list of questions, the same questions that I ask everyone to try and like understand their role, their place, what they think is going well, what they think isn't going well and what they think my role can like help them achieve and Yeah, I think don't underestimate the importance of ah first impressions. You know, on those meetings, make sure you can kind of actively listen to people, make sure that you take what they say seriously. I definitely think write everything down from your first few weeks. It's really useful to go back to it.
00:17:10
Speaker
Um, make sure you have goals and objectives. If you don't have goals and objectives set by your manager, set them yourself. Um, based off these, like what I would call discovery conversations. Uh, yeah. And I, I, I think the most important thing is like, you need to have some tangible outputs. Like you should be outputting, I think on like week one, you should output something. If you don't output anything on your first week, I think like,
00:17:39
Speaker
ah um i something's gone wrong. Like just as good practice, you should have something that you do, something in that first week that has like some consequence. And ah yeah, I would also say really invest in getting to know your, the people that you're gonna line manage, even if that's all you do for your first few weeks. Like your objective is to understand the team that you line manage and like understand what their goals are and be able to do a proper one-to-one with them in week two.
00:18:08
Speaker
like, that's fine. um So yeah, those would be my my thoughts on that. Speedy Annie man, an output in the first week. I yeah like not tough ah don't know if I'm that's beauty but um that But that's the whole thing, you know, like, if I got to the end of my first week, and I felt like I'd literally done nothing at all,
00:18:31
Speaker
I would feel a bit, I would feel a bit sad. Even if it's just like, do the onboarding videos. Should I get them done? Just get them done fine. Okay. Do something. Right. Tips and advice on how to claim my wins without looking like a dick. What? To be honest, I don't know if I do this. like ah It's quite feasible. I do look like a dick. I um i mean, what a the hanger of a question.
00:19:01
Speaker
ah So I would say but looking at the note, under the note of this, perhaps this person feels like they are leading work that is not being attributed to them and want to make that change in a way that feels authentic. I think that's how I would... On top of the question. Yeah, so if you're doing work and other people are taking credit for it or you're not being recognised for having done it, I would just put your name in it. Or like be the person who sends it out or like be the person who yeah like puts the meeting in or like all like do a roadshow. I love it when teams do that because like
00:19:45
Speaker
It's basically just a demo of all the work that they've done. And like I just sit there like a freaking hype girl in the Zoom chat. Oh my God, this is amazing. But you you can do those kinds of stone-cold things.
00:20:00
Speaker
um where you're like engaging other parts of the business on some work that you've done, um ah where it isn't you just being like, give me the credit. It's like, I'm educating you on this fantastic piece of work that I've done to benefit the whole business brackets yeah by me. um ah That feels like a nice way. um I think like also in a managing up context, if you're a line manager i doesn't know about the wins,
00:20:28
Speaker
um ah one little tip that um I've always done this in God, it's been it's been literally years I've been doing this, but a 515 every week. So it should take you 15 minutes to write and five minutes for your manager to read. And it should be a roll up of your team. And you highlight kind of just the big things that have happened that week and what what's happening next week and what are your wins and what are your blockers? And that is also a really helpful way of having a track record of all the stuff that we've done. And I think from managing our perspective, that's really helpful. um So yeah, I think just socializing your work in a non-aggressive way um and undoing some clever managing up. I mean, there's a whole different aspect or interpretation of this question of like LinkedIn, which makes me feel a bit icky sweaty.
00:21:26
Speaker
Yeah, I would definitely, um I think with this person.
00:21:33
Speaker
Like it it the way the question has been asked sounds hostile. Claim my wins without looking like a dick. ah that This to me does not sound like you're in like a a good a good place when you write this question. I would really say that like, make sure your line manager knows the work that you are delivering bare minimum. Make sure that your line manager does know like what you've delivered. And I also think, don't worry about looking like a dick.
00:22:03
Speaker
Like if you are being pushed into an environment and you feel like no one is noticing your contributions, put your fucking hand up and say, oh yeah, that's my piece of work. Thank you. Like who cares? Like if you're in, if you're in an environment that's making you feel defensive and nervous that people don't recognize what you are, what you are delivering, say what you are delivering. Yeah. I mean, I think
Realities of a Dream Job
00:22:30
Speaker
I,
00:22:30
Speaker
have said this in a previous episode at some point but um people often take credit for my work and I to be honest a lot of the time I don't care because that's that's an excellent influencing mechanism to let people think that your work is theirs and that it's a great idea and that does also just get annoying though sometimes like the other day someone circulated a big piece of work that I had done, like a different team had done it. And I just replied all and said, hey, thanks for cross promoting my work. That's fantastic. FYI, it all lives in this link. God, you are a savage. You're a genius. I like both of you. Do you want to work with you deeply in the future? And I don't at the same time.
00:23:23
Speaker
Don't get on my bad side. Okay, I think that's enough. Next question. How do you work out what you wanna do? I'm just gonna say, Beck has this book called Design Your Life. It's been recommended so many times in this podcast. Despite that fucking book, do the exercises. And like, you'll know, just do that. i yeah That's it, that's how I'm gonna answer the question. Now I'm gonna ask the questioner.
00:23:52
Speaker
No, you have to answer that question how you, how you discovered what you wanted to do for this job. that you I, I, yeah, I don't know, I don't know what I want to do and I don't think I'm ever going to know what I want to do. I don't, I don't subscribe in a changing world to like always knowing exactly what I want to do. What I decided is what I wanted to learn. I decided what I wanted to learn was like very operational leadership in a large complex organization that had high growth. And how did you work that out? um I went back from all the things I think I already know and then what things I think would be useful to know to have a good long-term career in the sector I care about, which is healthcare and but health and wellbeing. And um
00:24:49
Speaker
Yeah, that's how I did it. I don't think this is, um I don't think any job is going to be perfect. I don't, it, it's not like, you know, it was a process of both elimination and like, oh, this is in front of me. Would I enjoy these things? Would that be a good next step? But it was not like, um It was not a perfect plan. And I don't really subscribe to that anymore. Because in, in five years time, I might want to be a plumber. And you know what? I'll fucking do it if I want to do it. Do you know what I mean? Like I, I just don't subscribe to this. So I'm probably not the best person to have answered this question. So read Beck's book, Design Your Life. um Okay. Beck, is there a dream job for everyone?
00:25:38
Speaker
I'm going to give a resounding O to this. after i i I'm like the worst person when, particularly when speaking to young people, when they're all like, follow your passion. And I'm like, that's bullshit advice. Do not follow your passion. You will end up at a dead end or it resent something. I think that's like 1% of people in the world for whom that is like relevant advice.
00:26:05
Speaker
um I don't have a dream job. I reckon I've got like five dream jobs ahead of me. Like yeah I don't, I don't think there's one. I think there's just so many different things I'd want to try and all of them will be like full on big ass career changes. Yeah, big swings. Yeah. And like, you know, not all of them are like FTSE 100 CEO. It's like, I would actually just love to be a forest. And, and I think that would just be a lovely existence. so
00:26:37
Speaker
um I don't think there was one dream job for anyone. I don't think everyone should go and follow their passion because studentt we'd all just be fucking unemployed. um um it's not yeah And your passions change. like What you're passionate about when you're 20 is not what you're passionate about necessarily when you're 35 and that's okay. And then again when you're 40 and again when you're 50,
00:27:01
Speaker
So yeah, I think it's like all a bit naive, this dream job stuff. I definitely, you know, I obviously did think that like when I did my business, that was my dream job. And look where I'm now doing something else. There we go. I've never I've never had or sought after a dream job. If that makes anyone feel better. I just feel like it's just and work is all about ups and downs. And even if you think there's a dream job, like one of the dream jobs that I have in my list is that I'm going to run a little wildlife rescue center and like rehabilitate one bat. You do that together. I would love to do something like that. Yeah, it'd be so beautiful. But like, you know, I also follow all of these. They're so cute. I'm going to put them in the show notes. One bat, rehabilitation centers. And you know, like sometimes they die. And like, that's probably not part of my dream job. It's like, that's doing fine. Like, that is why
00:27:55
Speaker
I didn't become a vet. Like I wanted to be a vet for ages and then I was like... I was literally gonna say exactly the same thing. I also wanted to be a vet and that plus a cow prolapse picture were the two reasons that I did not become a vet. Don't say the P word, Annie. Okay, last question. How do you balance being purpose driven with where you are currently versus finding the dream job. This is not the dream job. Well, if you're purpose driven, where you are currently sick, great. That's used usually people like that. If you don't like that, you don't have to be purpose driven. There's no shame in not working for an organization that is purpose driven. You can seek purpose in your non work life in a way that is very, very valuable to society.
00:28:55
Speaker
So you do not have to find purpose or value through work necessarily. And um even if you are in a place where you can do that, if you don't enjoy it, that's no bad thing, you can find it elsewhere. um So yeah, before finding the dream job, I think just be careful two not to over glamourise and be idealistic about there being a dream job. I definitely think for most people, there is probably a better job a job that they would like to do more. And if you find one of those, I suggest you do it. Yeah, I mean, this that was such a great answer to the question. I was thinking about this question. And I know a lot, a lot of women. um Hello, Missy, from my Antarctica trip, who are ah really kind of climate driven. And you know, one of the one of the challenges of
00:29:50
Speaker
working on kind of the environment and climate change is that you deal with really depressing facts all day and develop climate anxiety. um ah like you know even Even if you are purpose purpose driven, like that can be really challenging. I mean, I 100% can tell you that working on menopause, which I definitely thought was my purpose, most purpose-driven, most dream job role was incredibly personally challenging for very similar reasons, which is like when you realize what women go through and the scale at which they go through it and the length of time they go through it for. As a young woman, you're a bit like,
00:30:33
Speaker
oh my fuck what is ahead of me and what is you know you know what are all these people around me going through and like god can you even solve this like fuck this is huge and like same with climate change like Can you even solve this? And the answer is you can usually only solve your one little part and that should be enough, but it's really, really hard to feel like that's enough when you're working on such a big thing. So yeah, I think that's totally right. And I think that is the, that's why some people find working in purpose-driven organizations really exhausting and too much for them. And that is totally fine. It doesn't make you a bad person.
00:31:13
Speaker
Amen.
Conclusion and Listener Engagement
00:31:14
Speaker
yeah I think that was- It's going to be snappy. OK, thanks. Thanks for listening, everyone. And we will be back next episode. Please um give us lots of stars wherever you found us and share us with a friend if you feel like it. peace Bye.