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S2, E6 The Career Coven: Coaching with Seb Agertoft
78 Plays2 months ago
This weeks episode is all about coaching. Both Annie and Bec have benefitted from coaching at different points in their career. They’ve also spoken about coaching at various points across season 1 and 2 of the Career Coven. In this weeks episode Bec speaks to Annie’s former coach - Seb Agertoft.
This episode is for people who are either thinking about getting a coach or are interested in becoming a coach. By the way - Annie highly recommends working with Seb (the best coach she’s worked with in terms of outcomes).
This episode covers:
- Seb’s personal journey to coaching
- What coaching is
- How there are different styles of coaching
- The difference between coaching and mentoring
Enjoying this content? Please rate and subscribe on your preferred platform, and let us know what you think! hello@careercoven.com
https://www.sebagertoft.com/
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Transcript
Introduction and Episode Overview
00:00:06
Speaker
Hello and welcome to this week's episode of The Career Coven. This week, we're having another conversation with a guest expert and the expert this week is someone called Sebastian or Seb Ergotoft.
Understanding Coaching: Styles and Accessibility
00:00:22
Speaker
He is a professional career coach and he was actually my professional coach. And in this conversation between him and Beck, they discuss what it means to be a coach, what coaching is and who it can benefit. They also talk about different styles of coaching um and when certain styles might be more useful than others and there's also advice for people looking to start coaching or become a coach as well as advice for people who are looking to work with a coach.
00:00:57
Speaker
Now both Beck and I have had different coaches throughout our careers to date and we have found coaching to be a really really useful tool. um It is something that not everyone can access and we understand that but it's also something that you may be able to ask your employer about if you're at a particular stage in your career and looking to make the next step. So we thought that a deep dive into what coaching is and how it helps people would be really, really useful for listeners of the Career Coven. And we look forward to hearing what you think about this really honest conversation between Seb and Bec.
00:01:40
Speaker
Hi Seb, lovely to meet you. back pleasure pleasure <unk> my Thank you so much for joining us. I've heard so much about you from Annie, obviously as your coaching client. um And we thought we would have you here today because We have both had a lot of coaching during our careers. We found it incredibly helpful, but we've had some listeners say they don't know anything about it.
Seb's Journey into Coaching
00:02:02
Speaker
So we thought you might be a great person to help our listeners in understanding everything about coaching and and also your experience as a coach and transitioning into that. So we're so delighted to have you here. um Shall we start with an introduction by yourself? And perhaps the first question is, what is coaching?
00:02:23
Speaker
Yeah, great question. um I'll give a bridged intro to me, which is I'm Seb and my background prior to coaching. was generally in startups in product roles. I worked mostly at the startup and scale up phase, although I did spend a little bit of time at eBay historically as well. So I have a bit of big company experience. Ended up most recently in a VP of product role in a very high growth health tech company.
00:02:56
Speaker
um So yeah, I had my own journey as a sort of startup operator and and then leader um before I pivoted my career into coaching a couple of years ago. As to your question about what is coaching, um It's not a regulated term, the word coach. So I think that's like an important thing to call out versus say a psychologist or a psychiatrist, et cetera. So what that means is it can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people. And there can be many different things happening under the umbrella of coaching.
00:03:34
Speaker
um If we're talking about one-to-one coaches and most, uh, what I would think of as legit coaches lie essentially in my mind on a spectrum between sort of a business advisor at one end and essentially therapist at the other. Um, and it kind of somewhere that sits along that spectrum, but there are are also a lot of charlatans out there as well. So, you know, um, yeah, lots of weird and wonderful things that happen under the banner of coaching.
Core Themes and Dynamics of Coaching
00:04:03
Speaker
So whilst I believe that yeah coaching can consist of a lot of different things, for me, the the kind of core common themes that lie at the heart of the coaching relationship are that it is oriented towards the client.
00:04:18
Speaker
um yeah most of our relationships in the world, like there's at least some sense that they should be 50-50, that we each carry our part of the conversation and et cetera, but this is very much oriented towards the client rather than the coach. um Secondly, it's non-judgmental, which, you know, so important, also very rare, even those people who are your friends, your family, your loved ones,
00:04:45
Speaker
you know might be great at being generally not judgmental, but they also have some stake in the game. even if even if they don't think they do, right they they they normally have some kind of ulterior motive. So it's very much yeah a non-judgmental space. And then the third factor is it's typically focused on helping the client make some sort of change in sort of work or life. And that can yeah be pretty broad. But yeah, those are the sort of three core themes, I would say, that underlie a ah good coaching relationship in my view.
00:05:18
Speaker
Amazing. and And when we're talking about a kind of coaching relationship, is this something that um our listeners would expect would go on forever? Is it time bound? Like what is the structure of that relationship look like? Yeah, it's a great question. I think there are different philosophies out there and different coaches and clients look for different things. So there is some folks out there who would say that, you know, a coaching relationship should be sort of time bound and, um,
00:05:46
Speaker
you know quite specific. I take a slightly different view in the sense that I think a coaching relationship should always have a clear set of sort of goals and I kind of think about coaching relationships and and coaching sort of time periods.
00:06:02
Speaker
as as sort of being driven by a bit of a narrative arc. So it's almost like, what's the narrative arc that we're working on together here? Like where are we really trying to get you to? um But then of course, life happens, work happens, things change. So often I might work with a client for six months and that narrative arc is going in one direction and maybe we get there or maybe circumstances change and they will want to continue to work together.
00:06:27
Speaker
for for that new chapter. So yeah, I would say can be very sort of short term in some cases, can be much longer term. I'd say rather than the time bound thing, I think it's yeah having a clear kind of direction that you're moving in is is is the most important aspect. Super interesting. and And in terms of how often a person speaks to their coach, is there a set kind of best practice frequency or is that really dependent on your relationship?
Coaching Styles and Client Engagement
00:06:57
Speaker
it It depends on your relationship. Frankly, it depends on the coach. It also depends on the sort of premium you're paying for coaching, et cetera. there are coaches out there for whom you know their structure and the way they work is sort of we have a conversation and then outside of that conversation um for one of a better phrase like you're dead to me right it's like i'm speaking to you and when i'm not speaking to you then like you' you're not on my radar ah for me i i don't really like that model so
00:07:28
Speaker
you know, I tend to structure like for my clients, I typically don't take on any clients for less than a six month period. And I kind of operate like an always on sort of model. So that normally means we have a set cadence um every one to two weeks of of sort of sessions. And that that is almost like the heartbeat of the relationship. But then outside of those conversations, you know, I am there to support the client, whether it means, you know,
00:07:57
Speaker
they've had a terrible day and had some bombshell dropped on them. And they're like, can we jump on a call for 30 minutes? Or we might have just some email correspondence and sort of checking in on how the thing we spoke about in the last session is is is progressing. um So yeah, for for for me, it's it's a bit more kind of high touch always on. um I would say at a minimum, you know,
00:08:22
Speaker
two touch points a month, any any kind of less than that, I feel like it's hard to keep momentum within a coaching relationship. But yeah, there is a problem. Yeah, I mean, so much happens in a month. But you'd spend half the time catching up. um So super interesting. So tell us a bit more about um your style of coaching and how it might be different from the others. Sure. So Again, going back to what I said before, lots of different things that get called coaching. Um, for me, I tend to do really like two types of coaching. So the first type for me is working one-to-one normally with founders and leaders of VC back startups. Um, and then for me, the second type is actually working with teams. Um, so that's normally the founding team.
00:09:14
Speaker
or an exec and and senior leadership team. um So of course, across those two things those two areas, the the style and approach looks a bit different, but you know if we focus maybe more on the one-to-one part,
00:09:28
Speaker
It's an interesting question, this notion of style, because I think the truth is um it does look different per client. Part of the skill is as a coach is being able to recognize the client in front of you and what they need and the style or the tools, the techniques, et cetera, that is going to be most effective to help them sort of unlock the things they need to unlock so yeah I would say it's not totally rigid um but if I were to you know call out again some of the themes for me I'd say I'm 90% coaching 10% advisory what I mean by that is there are some very like purist coaches out there maybe they've never worked in
00:10:12
Speaker
you know a leadership domain, perhaps, or it's just to do with like their their beliefs about coaching, who would never dream of offering like an opinion or anything more, like their own perspective into the space. And it's it's all about giving the client you know space to to to unpack this stuff. Now, I believe in the value of that in in a lot of cases, and and I think that's incredibly powerful.
00:10:36
Speaker
But I also think sometimes like if you can see a client sort of driving towards a cliff edge at a hundred miles an hour and you know that like there are things that, you know, then, then, then there's a certain, you know, either some, some experiences you've had some tools or things that you think would be.
00:10:54
Speaker
ah valuable or sometimes it's just like naming that thing right saying hey i see you i see you going for the cliff edge i know you think this is a good plan but i'm a little bit worried on your behalf like based on some other things i've i've seen or based on my knowledge of you so Yeah, much more coaching than I am advisory, but I am willing to bring a bit of that like advisory piece in where it's relevant and and based on my previous experience. I think one thing that I just want to pause there for a second. I have found really helpful um in my experience of being coached is um ah exactly as you said, when a coach kind of identifies and almost holds up a mirror
00:11:34
Speaker
to um or kind of observes you doing something and plays that back to you because I think often when you're being coached you know one of the one of the greatest challenges is when you're in the workplace um having self-awareness about what's actually going on for you and like kind of what that looks like objectively and you won't ever get that answer from anyone honestly really and so I find that really helpful um although I you know I think there's also mainly a duty of care in coaching somewhat that if you see something is about to go really wrong
00:12:12
Speaker
Perhaps a soft intervention might be helpful. Yeah, exactly. my I worked with my own coach. My own coach is is an 80-year-old Zen Buddhist ah who lives in San Francisco. He actually founded one of the the most well-known coaching schools in the US and and he's great. um I love him. and he he There's sort of this view, this almost this conflict in the coaching world. There's an organization called the ICF who I'm accredited through. It's I think a great thing generally.
00:12:43
Speaker
But they are very sort of prescriptive about what coaching is and what coaching isn't. And there are other people who, who take a different view. and And I don't think either of them is sort of right or wrong. It's just different, different perspectives. And, you know, James has this view that, you know, there's almost this expectation as a coach, you have to be this totally empty vessel with like, no, no opinion, no, you know, and you're just, just there in this sort of facilitating role. and he says to me sometimes like I don't want to be an empty vessel like I still have an opinion you know if you if a client comes to me and says my mission in life is to you know make nuclear arms he's like I don't want to just help them do that better you know I still I still have those views so
00:13:24
Speaker
I think there is some sort of yeah conflict in opinion within the coaching world of how much are you bringing you into the space versus how much are you that kind of empty vessel and and every every coach will will have a different philosophy and and land in a different point there. i would say Super interesting. um So tell us a bit more about your journey into becoming
Seb's Transition from Corporate to Coaching
00:13:45
Speaker
a coach. like How did you decide that was what you wanted to do and and what sort of took you on the pathway of quitting your job and and going through this process and now being a full-time coach. I think um and this is something that Annie and I have discussed at length about but coaching ourselves. And I'm sure for a number of our listeners, um they'll also be interested. So we'd love to hear the kind of philosophical and practical journey of that.
00:14:10
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. So there are kind of a few threads to this story. I'll i'll try and keep it ah coherent and relatively brief, but like there's definitely some background context here for people. um So the first yeah first piece of context here is, you know, like before I became a coach, I was a VP of product for a company called Pelago Health.
00:14:30
Speaker
It's basically for focused on providing digital first treatment for substance addiction. I was brought in very early and kind of led all things product. The company raised a lot of money, you know, 150 million in VC funding today, yeah grew to a few hundred people and, you know, was working on like building products that would help people with opioid addiction. And so like on paper, this was kind of a dream job. Like my journey up until that point, in every product role I'd done, I'd always had this sense of kind of unrest. um But there was always something obvious I could point to as to why the next job might be different and might sort of solve the unrest. And so I did what most people do.
00:15:20
Speaker
and it kind of carried on that ladder and and then I would get into the next role and think like yeah that sort of sense of unrest is still here but again maybe it's this thing now that's the problem and eventually when I got to sort of the upper rungs if you like of that ladder I still had the unrest, but I was basically running out of excuses. you know I've sort of done this journey. I've sort of somewhat ignored like some of this this of internal unrest. um And so at some point, I really just started to have honest conversations with myself about what are my motivations in life? What's really important to me?
00:15:57
Speaker
And I remember thinking to myself, and I'm like, fast forwarding on this you know product leadership career that was sort of laid out in front of me. I'm just thinking, there is no way I do this. And I don't have a midlife crisis. Like, I was like, this is you know that that there is just no fathomable path like for me if if I if I stick at this where I don't wake up whether it's age you know 40 50 I don't know and think this was the wrong path for me and so there was like a real like facing that and realizing that there was a dissonance between what I was doing and a lot of what I was actually truly motivated by which was much more people than it was technology so
00:16:44
Speaker
There's, yeah, there was that path in in my career, I would say, you know, there are sort of two two other threads I would say to this story, the second of which is um for me personally I'd grown up ah not you know spiritual or anything and like I was not a part of my life um but when I was in my early 20s my mum ended up in a sort of highly coercive abusive relationship for a few years and and that for me was kind of a catalyst for
00:17:17
Speaker
going and seeking answers in the world that I didn't feel like, you know, to questions I didn't feel were well equipped to answer. So, you know, there's ah the Steve Jobs quote about like, you can only connect the dog dots looking backwards. And I guess this is one of those situations where at the time that then triggered, I started, I took up yoga. I ended up after many years becoming an Ashtanga yoga teacher.
00:17:40
Speaker
From there, I started teaching meditation. I end up in lots of different self-exploration and awareness type of of spaces and mediums, and and just learned a lot on that path. And so that existed for me in tandem with you know being a startup exec. And for a while, for a long time, I just thought, like oh, these are two parts of my life that are just separate and distinct and and and will be forever.
00:18:07
Speaker
um And then the third thread, I guess, just to to sort of, you know, one about like me and my realizations and and some of my interests. The third thread is frankly that leadership in startups is generally, generally a bit of a catastrophe. Like, you know, I, I've been in the industry for a long time. I have lots of friends in similar spaces. I think we just do a terrible job of preparing people for leadership. Hmm.
00:18:37
Speaker
you know most startups, despite smart people and the best intentions in the world, end up being a massive waste of potential because we just don't equip people to to to build organizations effectively for the long term. So all of those things really coming together for me, like my own motivations, my sort of interests in in other areas, and then also just hyper awareness of the problem of of leadership in a lot of startups.
00:19:07
Speaker
they eventually came to a point where they kind of weave together for me. And that was the point I said, I said, right, I want to go and start training to be a coach. um So I went through my first coaching school whilst I was still a VP of products.
00:19:20
Speaker
I started taking on some clients and basically the more I did, the more I realized it was the right thing for me to be doing and the more I felt drawn to that over over products. And then there, yeah, there came a point on that journey where it was time to to commit, which is which is what I did.
00:19:39
Speaker
That's awesome. I also love that you tell this story in a way that is sort of um unashamedly complex. like I think with all of those decisions and juncture points that you make in your life and your career, there's never one obvious, like, I was just fed up, so I left. Yeah. And like and that's the thing, we like we dumb down.
00:19:59
Speaker
so much like advice and narrative into just like oh this is digestible for people but yeah the truth for me was like highly messy highly complex like yeah connect the dots you know I can sit here and tell us somewhat neat narrative and in ah looking backwards but yeah it definitely didn't feel that way you know living it at the time. And how do you feel about your unrest now? ah Really good I mean you know I'm In terms of starting a business and growing a business, like lots that's been hard that on that road. and And yeah, by no means want to portray that as an as an easy journey.
Challenges of Starting a Coaching Business
00:20:40
Speaker
um But definitely I'm in a great place today and feel very vindicated in in in my decisions. of yeah Amazing. And that unrest is yeah certainly quietened down.
00:20:54
Speaker
So I think, I mean, that's that's absolutely brilliant. and And you touched on my next question already, which was going to be around, for someone who's worked kind of in ah in a job um ah before that you know is employed by someone else and you get a salary from someone else, how is how did that process feel for you of going from that environment to, you know, I am in charge of my financial destiny and my own business? How has that transitioned for you and and what did you learn?
00:21:25
Speaker
Um, really fucking scary. Sorry. i' say that Um, we can edit it out if needed. Um, but no, really like it really scary, really scary. It's a, it's a hard work, you know, hard, uh, world to sort of take your ah yourself out of that security that you've known. And just the idea that a certain amount of money that you know, what it is is going to hit your account on a certain date. Um, it's a big mental adjustment. Um, so for me.
00:21:54
Speaker
You know, I was thinking about this earlier and and and I think broadly there have kind of been three phases. um So the first phase was what I refer to as the oh shit phase, which is basically everything's new. You know, you you realize you have no real idea how to build a business. You feel overwhelmed. And then when you're a coach.
00:22:15
Speaker
simultaneously feel overwhelmed but you can't show that you're overwhelmed because you're a coach and you know you're going to have your shit together basically so you're sort of there's this weird disconnect going on where you you feel like you have to portray that you have everything together even though it's incredibly overwhelming then from the oh shit phase i went into what i think of as kind of more the grind phase where you know the initial overwhelm has sort of passed, but there is just the realities of now I've got to show up day in, day out and motivate myself and run this business without any imposed structure on me. um And you know in my case, like, oh, it's it's kind of working.
00:22:55
Speaker
but it feels hard. There's a sense of like, is it does it get easier than this? you know um And then the third phase, which I'm hoping is is either here to stay or or we'll you know i'll get to to an even better phase, but it is is what I think of as like the payoff phase, which is, you know for me, I hit a point where an established good reputation um and off the back of that you you start to get more and more business is sort of coming your way like inbound versus having to sort of seek it out there in the world um as well as yeah for me moving more into some areas of like team coaching etc so
00:23:42
Speaker
things start to like really come together on that front, or they did for me. And then with that, I've become much better at then capitalizing on the flexibility that comes with working for myself, which for a long time is like, oh yeah, it's this great selling point. But it's easy to sort of have it there and not use it when you're so focused on, oh, I've got to get this thing off the ground.
00:24:08
Speaker
um yeah it's another thing to actually capitalise on it and genuinely enjoy it and and and take that space for yourself and feel okay about that. Well in one of your emails to me you said you've been in the mountains which sounds like a good use of ah flexibility. ah and the yeah yeah yeah i was yeah Lucky do I did a week-long hike with my dad in in the mountains this year and like That was one of, I set myself three goals this year and and one of them was have more fun. And that was that was one of the things I wanted to do. um So yeah, that kind of thing and being able to like really throw yourself into it and and not feel guilty about not working. I love that. And just in terms of how you manage yourself in this business,
00:24:53
Speaker
Is there a sort of cap on the number of clients that you take or kind of um do you put in a structure for your week on kind of your boundaries around how much work you're doing or what does managing yourself look like in this in this context? Yeah, it's a good question. um So I think for me, truthfully, I oscillate between get you know phases where I feel like I give myself more structure and then phases where I'm a bit more, ah give myself a bit more space and
00:25:25
Speaker
I for a time felt like in that sort of debate between structure and space, I was trying to find a right answer. And I think what I've learned for me is actually I do just benefit from being able to oscillate between those different modes at different times of year, different other things I've got going on. So yeah, I have a ah have a sort of broad sense across say the one-to-one clients and some of the like team coaching of what mix I ideally want to have there. And I'm pretty clear these days on the types of clients I take on and those who are on the right fit for me. um I try to have a sort of bit of structure around my week and certain things that I do consistently do at certain times of week.
00:26:15
Speaker
um But yeah, but also yeah have have some times like we spent, my wife and I are lucky enough to to both have a bit of flexibility. So we tend to spend a couple of months of the year in in Southwest France. I love to surf. So like we were out there in May and June and I kind of said to myself, like, i'm gonna I'm going to orientate my week so that I basically do a four day week whilst I'm here and I'm going to spend a bit of time surfing. And that was amazing. And then when we came back,
00:26:44
Speaker
I kind of upped my workload a bit and you know, it was probably working a bit longer hours. So yeah, it's, it's a constant, um, Battle is maybe the wrong word, but it's just it's it's having that self-awareness that you you know preach to and teach to you you to your clients. And as I say before, i worked I work with my own coach. So for me, having that same kind of mirror, that same space to be asking myself some of these questions is is really beneficial in in in that process.
00:27:16
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it sounds like quite an intuitive approach to um how you structure your time. and and and And in a kind of, I work in a corporate environment, there are just um peaks and troughs throughout the year anyway. So I suppose it's probably completely natural to have peaks and troughs when you're just, um ah but when you're in full control of your workload as well. um Super interesting. so What would you recommend for anyone interested in becoming a coach? what What would be the first kind of steps or things they should be doing or thinking about?
Advice for Aspiring Coaches
00:27:55
Speaker
Yeah, so good question. I think the first thing I would say is getting the game um and what I mean by that is
00:28:05
Speaker
pick a training, whether that's a short form intro, whether that's something, you know, up to you, but go and start getting exposed to coaching, getting hands on with it and learn if it's really something that you want to do. I think that in and of itself, for some people will be, you know,
00:28:29
Speaker
light this fire within them and they'll be like yes I love this. I think for other people they maybe think of coaching and they think of all the lifestyle around it that they think they might be able to lead um more so than the act itself and for most people who come from you know more of a typical job coaching is really different you know and you take on a lot of emotional burden of a lot of people it's it's it's a very different way to orientate your your work so yeah i think there's no real way to answer that whether it's right for you without just getting in the game um and even if you
00:29:07
Speaker
get in the game and you decide it's not the right thing for you to do long term, learning great coaching skills is something that will serve you in every aspect of life, whether it's work, your marriage or whatever, it'll it'll teach you to be a better listener, it'll teach you to engage with people. So, you know, it will never, I don't think, prove if you go to a good training to be a waste of money, even if you don't turn it into your lifelong career.
00:29:33
Speaker
The other thing I would say is whatever you're doing now is, you know, build your network and, you know, don't do that in a slimy, networky kind of way, but just be out there in the world, finding opportunities to help other people, connect with other people, do it authentically and try to build, you know,
00:29:58
Speaker
a network based on trust and integrity with good people because if you do end up trying to become a coach, the hardest part of the journey is that early part and probably successful failure for you is going to hinge on the strength of that network in the early phase.
00:30:16
Speaker
so you know that That is, if you don't plan to make the jump tomorrow, but you're looking at it as like a long-term time horizon, there's a lot you can be doing to build that network and and know set yourself up for future success. Such a good point. I mean, your reputation is everything amongst the people you know. And I assume, is it fair to say, Seb, that probably quite a lot of coaching business comes from referrals or word of mouth?
00:30:43
Speaker
Hugely so, yeah, yeah, I mean, you know, early on, you're kind of out there in the world trying to let people know about what you're doing. And there's a lot more kind of a sense of you being outbound. um For me now, yeah, a large part of my business basically comes from referrals from current and past clients, or referrals from organizations where you have good relationships.
00:31:07
Speaker
of a bunch of relationships with venture capital companies. For example, I've maybe worked with a founder in the portfolio. um So yeah, if you can build that credibility, build that genuine connection and build that trust, then that will stand you in great stead.
00:31:24
Speaker
Yeah, totally. You said something else earlier in your response, and it's actually the second time you've mentioned it and I kind of wanted to unpick it a little bit. You mentioned that um ah there's a kind of emotional burden, I don't know if you use the word burden but you you are you are the recipient and and kind of you're holding space for other people's emotions um and thoughts for them. And as your coach says, yeah you know, but you're a vessel, you might not be empty, but you're creating the space for them. Would you say that is a good thing for people who are kind of
00:32:03
Speaker
more emotional in nature or is that really difficult? how do you How do you balance that as a person taking on all of these kind of challenges and discussions from your clients? Yeah, it's it's a great point and I can really tell back that you'd make a good coach because you did you did well to to loop back and mirror back from the earlier conversation. um The think different people will will sort of handle it differently. I think it comes down to for some people that will really drain them and for other people it will be a source of great energy to be engaged with people in that way. So for me I would say generally speaking I'm not someone who necessarily loves walking into a room crowded for the people and like
The Emotional Aspect of Coaching
00:32:53
Speaker
that i find quite draining i love connecting with people one to one and so on the whole i you know you do take on a lot from your clients but for me personally it's something that generally feels like it's recharging my batteries rather than draining them having said that you know you you will also come across a lot of serious things when you're in the coaching space and and people will tell you things that they've never told anybody else in the world and I think firstly, you need to have the skills and the training, et cetera, to know how to handle that delicately and skillfully. who You need to be able to ah afford yourself the same space that you afford others and, you know,
00:33:40
Speaker
compassionate with yourself make sure that you're doing the things that like de-stress you etc you know and so don't you treat yourself as this sort of special case who's somehow like immune to all of the stresses of the world right you need to you need to practice what you preach so yeah it can be hard um and but I think yeah broadly some people are kind of more energized by that form of engagement other people are drained it was ah It was an interesting point you were making there around um walking into a room of people that you have to talk to versus one-to-one. Would you classify yourself as an introvert or an extrovert?
00:34:17
Speaker
Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, in all of the, you know, the kind of like Myers-Briggs type of tests. Yeah. yeah but that i'm I'm someone who sits on this like ambivert, where i I can show up in those spaces and put on a good show. Like people, I can talk in front of a room of people in a hopefully a fairly compelling way. And people would think of me as being an extrovert, but then I'd go home and need to like lie on the sofa for a day, you know.
00:34:45
Speaker
um oh Yeah, it's, it's, I'm like a kind of, you know, a weird mix. i'm I'm sure many other people can relate to that as well. So I agree. I'm i'm outwardly presenting extraverted when I need to be, but it's very, very tiring. um Good to know.
00:35:04
Speaker
I want to, I want to kind of change gears on this conversation slightly and look at it more from the perspective of, um, for our listeners who maybe haven't had a coach and, and they're thinking about getting a coach.
When to Seek Coaching
00:35:16
Speaker
Um, uh, is there kind of a particular point or area in someone's life when you think they might need coaching or benefit more from coaching? And then second part of the question is, and how would they go about finding one?
00:35:35
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. So it it is a good question. And and like any question, you know, that I'd say there's no, there's no definitive right or wrong. for For me, I focus a lot with my clients on on those, what I call navigating firsts. And so often it's a first time founder, first time exec. And that point or that type of client, and there is often the greatest delta between like the needs of the role and the situation and then kind of what they're equipped to handle at that point in time.
00:36:15
Speaker
So where where those big kind of deltas exist, um I think is one way to think about it. you know When you're really early in in your career, like we're all a bit clueless, um but then we're rightly like given less responsibility whilst we figure out a bit of that cluelessness. And then from there, you know if you rise through the ranks,
00:36:35
Speaker
quickly or maybe you become a founder yourself, ah people can quickly end up in that like high stakes position where they just simply aren't that well set up to succeed, end up feeling overwhelmed etc. So that is tends to be the area I focus on um and and I guess the other thing to say there is it can happen at any age but if you were going to kind of look at like age demographic the timing of all of that stuff can also often come inside with starting a family and like these other kind of big strenuous adventures in life so it can like really compound for people you know that they've got so many kind of draws on on on their time and their energy um
00:37:20
Speaker
So yeah, that's, that's where I focus most, but you know, for me, it's not exclusively that and I'd say there's no necessarily bad time. It's generally, you know, oriented towards change. So when people are figuring out that this is a point in time where I'm really seeking change.
00:37:41
Speaker
Maybe I want to pivot to a new career. Maybe I just want to find a new role. Maybe I want to find out how to better succeed in my role currently. um Maybe it's a much more broad life aspect about the way I think about the world. um So yeah, no no bad time. But yeah, for me, it's it's a lot about that delta between what is your role and the situation demanding of you versus what do you set up to to do, basically.
00:38:09
Speaker
right i i I mean, every time I've had coaching has been when I've been in it almost in a transition period or where I know that something is not quite working out, but I can't put my finger on mine. And I found it really helpful to then work out what my next step is. I mean, it was interesting that you say that coaching can tend to happen around other big life events. The last coaching bit I had,
00:38:34
Speaker
was ah I was very early pregnant and was working out how to navigate that with work with a coach and then we ended up talking about where I was where I was going to live. um It was like not a direction that I expected but we obviously can't take an individual's role and job in isolation of all of the other really big things that are going on because we're all just messy complicated people with other things outside work so um that really struck a chord for me. So um let's assume that a listener wants wants to get coaching they kind of recognize something in their selves about a place they want to get to or a change they want to make or something like that. If they want to find a coach
Finding the Right Coach
00:39:16
Speaker
how would they go about that and what do you think they should be looking for? Because I feel like chemistry is quite important in a coaching relationship. yeah Yeah, it definitely is. um So I would say first and foremost, get some recommendations. That might be people in your network. that might be If you're a founder, that might be your VC investors, for example. yeah Most of us will have people around us who have engaged with coaching and know some some people who they trust and and they value.
00:39:48
Speaker
I'd say from there, speak to a few different coaches. um Any decent coach is going to be willing to connect with you and take some time for an initial conversation without you know charging you any money, so you know go and speak to a few of those options.
00:40:04
Speaker
um Be aware that pricing can vary, very significantly in this space. So I'd say don't shy away from the money conversation early in that process. You can feel uncomfortable about it, but just be transparent about how you're thinking about budget, et cetera, and and you know your your search will probably be much more efficient that way. um And then in terms of you know the coach themselves,
00:40:30
Speaker
You know, things like coaching credentials are are relevant and and somewhat important, but I'd say more so, you know, does that coach have experience of working with clients like you? You know, is that their bread and butter or are you, you know, falling in the bucket of a kind, of tiny thing they do on the side? And probably most importantly, you know, pay attention to your energy and how you feel after speaking with each person. You're kind of inviting this person into your life as yeah a thought partner, a catalyst for change. So did that conversation provoke something new for you in terms of how you're thinking, how you're feeling? you know and And I would view it through that lens because that there's a you need you need fit and you need chemistry.
00:41:21
Speaker
But it's there's a risk, I think, for all of us when we go and seek a coach, is we look for someone who basically looks like us and is looking at the same views of the world. So just just remember that you're...
00:41:35
Speaker
you're there, there's something that you want to change. So don't necessarily base it just on who you like and you can imagine yourself having a drink down the pub with. It's like, has this person provoked something new for me even based on an initial conversation? And I think if you can answer that honestly off a few different conversations with different coaches, you'll probably end up with a fairly clear sense of like, yes, that person feels like the right fit for me right now.
00:42:03
Speaker
super interesting. I think, yeah, I've, I've had quite a few coaches for different reasons at different times. And, and, uh, I had one coach who was just sort of demographically so far off me. And actually those conversations were, I'd argue, um, the most provoking in that you sort of, you're like, this is just someone telling me something quite quite surreal about myself that, you know, if i if I'm coaching myself, I would never do. um ah So I think it's really fascinating. um You touched on a really good point there about pay, and I think um some of our listeners are at the start of their career or, um you know, don don't have a huge amount of disposable income. And um I think, you know, in in the UK, I assume my assumption is the kind of base rate of
00:42:57
Speaker
what you would get out in the market probably wouldn't be under a hundred pounds per session um ah for coaching. So um for some of our listeners that might not be affordable. um What would you recommend that those listeners do if they couldn't afford one-to-one coaching? Is there anything that they can think about or is there any um kind of content they can consume? What would you recommend to those guys?
00:43:25
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, it's a great point because yeah, coaching is a sort of premium thing generally that isn't widely accessible to everybody. um I think there's an interesting thing here about what what role AI plays in that in in in the future. oh But yeah, I think the first thing on on the affordability is Firstly, to ask yourself, honestly, is that true? Like, can I not afford this? and And that might be genuinely true. For other people, you know, what you will see is they certainly have the money, but what they struggle to do is prioritize investing that money in themselves. um So for a lot of people, like that is more the barrier than money. It's, oh, is it, you know,
00:44:14
Speaker
Can I spend that money on me? you know Can I invest in me in that way? you know so So I think there's an honest you know conversation to have with yourself about like, is it true that it's not affordable for me? If the true answer to that is, yeah, it's not affordable for me right now, which will be an the answer for for for many.
00:44:31
Speaker
um see See what options you have available through your company. um So, you know, earlier in your career, it's probably less likely most companies I would say these days will fund some sort of coaching at a leadership level, um but yet often not lower, lower down the org. But some, some do. There are, there are some organizations who yeah will work with with kind of large platform providers and you know you might be able to get a sort of six sessions or or some some kind of package through for your company so definitely explore that as an option. um If that's not on the table I would say you know there there is potential to to get free coaching sometimes from those coaches who are training you know people training to be coaches these days.
00:45:21
Speaker
and depending on the circumstances you know I probably wouldn't go to a coaching training if I had a like 10 out of 10 critical huge issue um because you know by nature they're less experienced but if it's like hey, there's there's some stuff I'd like to work through. I would benefit from from that sort of thought partnership. um Then, yeah, you can you can basically find. I forget um off top of my head, but maybe we can I can send it to you afterwards and put it in show notes or whatever. But there are some organizations I think help connect.
00:45:57
Speaker
people looking for free coaching, with coaches in training looking for test clients, basically. um So that that could be a really interesting option to explore. And then the other thing is, like again, if none of that is right for you, I'm not someone who is an advocate of like everyone should do coaching
Alternatives to Coaching for Personal Growth
00:46:17
Speaker
all of the time. you know i think like Sometimes it's not right for people for reasons and that's totally fine. There are lots of different tools out there that help with
00:46:28
Speaker
some of the underlying themes you might be working on so if it's about self-awareness you know maybe you you start journaling maybe you pick up a you know meditation practice through one of the many apps out there you know there there are different entry points into to some of these topics that can come at a lower price point so um yeah explore some of those areas as a perhaps as a starting point and maybe they will be the thing that help you sort of solve that problem without the need of a coach whatsoever.
00:47:01
Speaker
Gosh, if only journaling can solve everything. I do believe journaling can solve a lot though. um I have one last question for you and before we wrap this up. um For someone who's going into a coaching relationship and they haven't been coached before, is there anything that you would recommend that they go into that session with in terms of mindset or or anything else?
00:47:25
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. I think the important thing in a coaching relationship is at least the way I think about it, is it's sort of co-created by coach and clients. And some people might think, well, when I find a coach, in essence, I'm sort of outsourcing the problem to someone else. You know, this coach is like an expert, they're going to solve it for me. Like that is not what's happening. And if someone's telling you that's what's happening, I would run a mile. so you You are there both committed to
00:48:01
Speaker
you know the ongoing process of change for for you as you define it. So I would say, you know, turn up. open-minded, ready to explore, knowing that the conversation itself might be great and it might unlock a load of new thoughts for you, but you're probably going to go have to go back into the world and do something about those new thoughts in order for it to meaningfully change your life. If if you just sit on them, and then there's only so much change that that might happen.
00:48:33
Speaker
um So yeah, I'd say, you know, turn up with that in mind, turn up ready to steer the conversation where you want to take it and think about like, what are the, what other things that would could change in life that would be most impactful for me? Um, so yeah, you know, be, be a, be a driver in the relationship, not, not a passenger. Um, and yeah, the other thing I would say is, is be,
00:49:06
Speaker
compassionate with yourself. you know I think um we all fall into the trap of holding ourselves to different standards. than the Sanders we hold other others to often. So just you know hopefully by the fact that you've invested in coaching, there's like some belief there or some willingness to sort of be compassionate with yourself and and try to try to take take that into the coaching process. you know You're not going to have this linear journey from where you are now to you know this mythical world in which everything is great all of the time.
00:49:39
Speaker
but you're taking steps, you're you're willing to put time and effort into improving things and um sometimes that will happen very quickly, sometimes it will take time, sometimes you'll take a step back. um So just yeah, be compassionate with yourself and and keep showing up and doing the work.
00:49:59
Speaker
Gosh, what a beautiful way to end. Thank you so much, Seb, for joining us and for giving so much of your wisdom. I'm sure the listeners will agree with me that that was a fascinating conversation. So um really delighted. We will link to Seb's website in the show notes as well as some other reference points that we have discussed today. But thank you so much all for joining us and have a great day. Thanks, Bec.
00:50:26
Speaker
um