Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
S2, E7 The Career Coven: Career Planning & Self-Development
76 Plays1 month ago
In this week’s episode Bec and Annie talk through self development, and how they’ve both approached building their careers. Whilst Bec has taken a very structured and deliberate approach to building her career, Annie’s career moves have been more opportunistic and often led by passion and gut instinct. Bec has a 3 year life plan, that helps her focus in on her progression and goals. They discuss the merits of both different approaches.
Listen to this episode to hear more about:
- Resources we recommend to think about career progression and structure
- The roles we’ve both learned the most in
- How coaching has supported us both at different times
- The difference between coaching and mentoring
- Top 5 tips for career building
Enjoying this content? Please rate and subscribe on your preferred platform, and let us know what you think! hello@careercoven.com
Recommendations from this episode:
- Designing Your Life, Burnett and Evans
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Hosts and Podcast
00:00:09
Speaker
I'm Beck and I'm Annie and welcome to The Career Coven.
Topic Announcement: Career Planning
00:00:14
Speaker
Today we are talking about career planning and self-development. I think on some of these things you and I are going to be super aligned and on some of them are going to be really different. I would concur. I would concur. We've got very different careers so That's why this is such an interesting podcast for people. Hopefully. So shall we start with our careers today? Annie, how much of your career has been planned?
Annie's Career Journey
00:00:49
Speaker
Almost zero. I definitely, so the first job I got, um I just got it because everyone was getting jobs and I didn't know what I wanted to do. So I got a job in executive search ah thinking that that was like just a job that people do. And um that was not at all well planned.
00:01:11
Speaker
um And then after a year, I didn't want to do that job, even though now looking back on it it was a very, very good place to start a career. um So then I did a master's and after that master's I did two years, two and a half years of strategy consulting for the NHS and my master's was in public health and that move was very planned.
00:01:31
Speaker
I'd seen everywhere that strategy consultants get good jobs and it sort of sets you up like having a decent career and I thought that looks sensible, let's do that, I really care about the NHS. Everything since then, so that's what for almost four years professional life everything after that has not been planned.
Opportunistic Career Moves
00:01:54
Speaker
This most recent move is more planned, is much more planned than anything else. um But I have made some quite opportunistic moves in the past, some of which have been absolutely great and others of which have probably been less great. But I'm not a planner. And I'm probably now trying to experiment with being a bit more of a planner.
00:02:17
Speaker
I think it's fine not to be a planner. Not everyone needs to be a planner.
Beck's Career Planning
00:02:21
Speaker
I am like a planner to a fault, which I think is sometimes helpful and sometimes really not. I'd say I've planned some of my career, but not all of my career. Like I think when I started work, I just looked at all of the amazing women who were either line managing me or who I thought were really incredible and said, if I want to be on the same trajectory as them, this is what I need to do. That is a plan. You have to make a plan. Yeah, I'd say like from age 21. Okay, so your entire working life, you maybe did some volunteering that wasn't planned. you So I think I had I had some end goals in mind, but I didn't have any interim goals. So at like age 21, I was like,
00:03:15
Speaker
all of these amazing women are directors and big organizations. um And they're in their early 30s. So I was like, cool, I want to be a director at 30. And having that as my like pacing metric for progression, um put a very intense amount of pressure on myself. yeah And when I finally I mean, I think when when I wasn't sure I was going to make it in my own internal deadline, I was having coaching at the time and the coach was basically like, you're kind of nuts. Like, this is just a random goal that you've set yourself and what would happen if you didn't achieve it? And I was like, I would just be sad for my 21 year old self. ah
00:04:00
Speaker
like But I did hit it. man Yeah, I know, completely bonkers. and ah But I think what I have found since then is that I i no longer have the same sort of quite insane goal to reach for. So maybe my progression has slowed, but I'm also cool with that.
Refining Roles & Job Satisfaction
00:04:23
Speaker
um ah It feels like I'm a bit more comfortable in myself, I don't have anything to prove to myself. but I mean, I don't care about others, I only care about myself. But that was planned. And I think, ah I don't know if this exactly counts as planning, but every time I've changed jobs, it has been a refinement of what I know that I do and don't like. And I think everyone works a bit like that. So in one of my first roles, I was doing a very like delivering focus role,
00:04:58
Speaker
And I thought, you know what, I'm really good at project management, but I fucking hate it. And I sort of said like strategy sounds good. And that's always been a thing that I've come back to over and over and in each role. And I think every role that I've taken has been a refinement of me working out the right mix of skills um that make me happier and more fulfilled within a role. And I think that has really helped me progress as well because I just do genuinely believe if you like your job and you like the things that you do, you will be better at them than if you didn't. Definitely. And I think that is like one of the, I guess, privileges of getting more experienced in the workplaces that you you should get to refine and hone things down to doing more of what you enjoy and less of what you don't enjoy, I think.
00:05:51
Speaker
Yeah. Um, but I think, you know, there have been moments in my career where I have not had a fucking clue what I wanted to do. And I'm like trying to weigh up like five completely different options. Um, and, and you're like, maybe I'll become, uh,
00:06:11
Speaker
Well, actually, there was a version of me that wanted to become a strategy consultant. And then I did an interview at McKinsey and was like, Oh, this place has given me the ick. But the sorry, for any McKinsey, this wasn't there. It wasn't for me, but I'm happy it worked out for you.
Recommended Reading for Career Planning
00:06:31
Speaker
But you know, I think it's quite difficult to try on different things and see how they feel. And I've bought you a book, I think twice by accident, which I found really helpful.
00:06:45
Speaker
try i still not ready But I do have it on both my home home, my parents home shelf and my own home shelf. So there's there's no way I should be reading it. um I think if you don't feel like you need to, then that's okay. But it is really good if anyone is thinking about You know, I don't really know what I want to do next. I've got a rough idea of like some sort of insane ideas and I want to actually work out what that would look like. There are some really helpful exercises in that book. I mean, that would have been very good for me.
00:07:25
Speaker
So yeah, it's a really phenomenal book if you're feeling a bit stuck or confused or just not knowing how to evaluate what to do next and and some really practical tips. So we'll definitely recommend that and we'll put it in the show notes. um What is on your development plan now?
Current Focus: Personal Development
00:07:41
Speaker
Yep, I've got a few things um as always. ah One is Focusing on one thing at a time, I'm definitely someone that likes to have like multiple things going on, executing a lot across a lot of other diamond um a lot of different dimensions at once. And I think that having a bit more depth and a bit more focus is something I need to work on.
00:08:06
Speaker
um Another thing is ah having higher standards across everything I do. As I've mentioned, I'm very, i'm very 80-20. And whilst I don't want to change that about myself, I can also recognise that there are, you know, some some things that require like the 90% and I could probably push a bit harder to for excellence in in some in some ways.
00:08:35
Speaker
ah And I'm always working on better communication. I'm always working on giving and receiving more feedback. And I also am working on this and my sub stack where I write about stuff um, as like personal projects that I think fit into personal development. Um, so those are just, those are just some of my, some of my things on my stack right now. What about you?
Task Prioritization & Saying No
00:09:12
Speaker
I mean, yeah, I mean, we should both, both probably say we both have sub stacks and we'll put them in the show notes. Um, but yeah, I think like but we have some similar and some different, I think for me, I've been trying to bring more coherence to who I am.
00:09:27
Speaker
press professionally when those themes and kind of activities have felt a bit disjointed um ah previously and try just trying to bring a bit of congruence to what I'm doing. And sometimes that also means stopping doing something if it just doesn't really fit in with the the vision that I have for myself. What is congruence? Can I ask what is congruence?
00:09:54
Speaker
making making things make sense and align together. and right yeah So making it feel less disjointed and more coherent and and more kind of centered um ah and clear in in what what I'm doing and why I'm doing it basically. um I have had historically a problem of saying yes to everything and that is Interesting. That is a fast way to have no free time. Um, and it's also a fast way to having a bunch of random shit on what to do this where you're like, I don't think I need to do that. So, um, my development area is just saying no to stuff. Which is good, but it's a very good development area. I think a lot of people could use that as a development area. For sure. I think I found pregnancy really humbling for this because I've just not been able to do anywhere near as much as I would like to do or have done previously. So.
Perfectionism & Effective Delegation
00:10:50
Speaker
And being forced to really strictly prioritise has been um like, I like that I had to be forced to do it because otherwise I don't think I would have seen the value in it. But I've basically only been doing work, the podcast and a handful of other things. um ah And you know, even that growing as human.
00:11:15
Speaker
growing a human, you know, like, I think this week we're growing hair. um so And a lot of work, but it's a lot of yeah i would love for him to have luscious locks. I'm sure he will. um I think in in my work context, what I'm working on is, it's almost the opposite of what you were saying, i I'm working on being less of a perfectionist. um
Learning and Development Responsibility
00:11:36
Speaker
Yeah. And that also means loosening the reins and the expectations that I have um of myself, but also of others as well. um And working more on releasing control of things and trying to influence the outcomes rather than trying to hold on to full control myself. So those are the bits that I'm working on um ah mostly for myself. just So I'm happier at work.
00:12:06
Speaker
um But you know, it's all very good fun. um Talk to me about what you think about like learning and development opportunities um and how you should do this inside or outside a company.
00:12:20
Speaker
um Yeah, i I have quite a kind of maybe extreme view on this, which is I think learning and development is like solely your own individual responsibility. And I'm not saying that I don't think organisations should facilitate it and support it like I absolutely think they should, but I think it is up to you to figure out like how you want to and how you should professionally develop and then to take steps to find ways to do that that are quite proactive. In my experience, I would suggest that when you try and as a manager, kind of force learning and development onto people that don't want to do it.
00:13:06
Speaker
it usually doesn't really work. There are potentially a few examples of um potentially a ah few exceptions to that, like I think you've talked about going on a RADA training course um and I don't know whether you like really wanted to do that but I was actually made to go on one of them very early in my career and I did not want to go at all but that would then you know I think those courses are so good when you're there that I was like okay I i sort of reluctantly see the value of of this but other than that I think it's really your own responsibility to figure out
00:13:44
Speaker
what to do, where to do it, and then it's the the organization should definitely support you.
Quality of Training Sessions
00:13:50
Speaker
But I don't think line managers should be like mapping out your LND plans because no one's good at learning stuff they don't really want to learn. um what's what's What's your view on LND? I mean, we work in very different sorts of organizations, so I can imagine that there may be some some differences here. Yeah. I think um It's really hard to get good learning and development, like high quality L and D. I have done so many like different trainings where frankly, they're really mediocre and like the organization has paid for it and you're like, what on earth am I here? Like I literally sat through a training.
00:14:36
Speaker
I won't say where or when, but it was about like advanced line manager training. And then it started talking about how you should have weekly one-to-ones with an agenda. And I was like, okay, bore off. I'm literally leaving.
00:14:50
Speaker
um and all that yeah and not need other to fast like I've been line managing for seven years, like I'm cool, thank you. Imagine if you'd done seven years and you've never got to that, like that would be the other extreme thing. Imagine doing seven years and you've never got to even basic ones and agendas. Yeah, that's what I was quite concerned they were catering to, like a large majority of people who had never done
Investing in Personal Development
00:15:15
Speaker
that. And I was like, well, this is a terrible state of affairs, but like there are a few
00:15:21
Speaker
few exceptions where like I've had really good training, that Rada one is one of them, um which I can link whatever version of it is currently now running in the show notes. But um I also, I have always faced um pushback from organisations in the amount of funding that they can give you to support whatever L and D you um you feel like you should go on. And I think in some instances that's fair enough because the L and D pot is really small per head and they will always try and get you to do an internal training that they already have a kind of um deal at scale on. So I kind of get that. I have always just paid out of pocket myself um if I had found something that I've really wanted to do.
00:16:10
Speaker
um and like, that's not a decision that I think everyone would take or might be able to take. But I also just feel like if there is something that is really calling to you, just pay for it and do it. and Don't wait for someone to kind of pay for you to be able to do that. I think you should, I also feel much more invested in those kind of opportunities if I have paid for them.
00:16:34
Speaker
because I'm like, I have put my hard-earned cash into this. Whereas if you get free training, ah you just internally value it a lot less, even though the value is exactly the same. I've spoken previously about um doing an MBA. um i I think I've said this before, if That's the only thing that I think that I might say I regret doing um out of my. out of You didn't pay for that one, did you? You didn't pay for that one, importantly. I didn't pay for that one. And I would never be able to pay for an MBA by myself because they are outrageously expensive. But um again, maybe I would have enjoyed it more if
Learning from Challenges
00:17:15
Speaker
I pay for it. I don't know. We'll never know. But um I think also just so much about learning and development, the best learning and development
00:17:25
Speaker
that I've ever had is on the job. um It's when you've been put super out of your comfort zone, and you've been forced to do something you've never done before. And, and you've been sort of baptism of fire, given something you've been like, Oh, my God, do it, like the COVID crisis experience that I had, like, that for me,
00:17:44
Speaker
That was the biggest growth period I will probably ever have in my career. And although it was a point extremely horrific, I learned and grew like an enormous amount, way more than I would have otherwise, I think. What about you? you Tell me about your best development experiences.
00:18:02
Speaker
I mean, really though, they are all on the job. Like I have always done things that I'm really not qualified to do. I continue to choose roles where I really have no qualifications to actually do the role and just see what happens. That is sort of my career plan. And um i I don't really remember many bits of formal training that I haven't even done.
Impact of Coaching
00:18:26
Speaker
But what I would say is, um I think I mentioned this on a previous podcast episode. I have had some really useful inter um externally delivered, but internal trainings on like line management, feedback, um supporting people in the workplace um that have been really, really helpful and really useful. So potentially I should have done more training.
00:18:52
Speaker
but um I haven't. I haven't done very much at all. The Radha Professional Development Course, when I did it for me, was specifically about public speaking. um And it was a real privilege to go on that when I was only three years into my career. Like, that was quite generous of that organization and they only sent me. um on what Yeah, and at the time, I probably wasn't that grateful for that opportunity that I was being given. But Hannah Ruth, if you're listening, which you're probably almost certainly not, I appreciate it now.
00:19:32
Speaker
um on It did help me feel more confident. I used to be really, really quiet in meetings and I would always give like all of my contributions through like output and I would never really speak up at the start of my career unless I was directly asked something. That's the only way you could kind of get me to speak up in a meeting.
00:19:57
Speaker
um And yeah, I mean, I think that that course plus a lot of learning on the job helped me get much, much better at that.
00:20:11
Speaker
This also just made me think about other things that happen on the job or or actually that I've got through an organisation.
Coaching vs. Mentoring
00:20:20
Speaker
And I should say, you and I have spoken about this a lot, but coaching has played an important a really, really important part in my career development.
00:20:28
Speaker
um And for those who are listening who may not know about coaching, because I've definitely received a question um directly about this from the pod. um Coaches usually, um they, you will have a one to one relationship with your coach generally.
00:20:45
Speaker
Um, it will be for a fixed period of time. Um, and ideally you're kind of working through a specific kind of challenge or problem or transition period. And the objective of those coaching sessions is to help you to bring clarity on what your kind of next steps are and to feel good about that decision-making and to help you reach those conclusions conclusions yourself rather than asking for advice, which would be a mentor. Um,
00:21:15
Speaker
and like I've had amazing coaches in my career. I know you have as well. Is there anything that you wanted to touch on on coaching? um No, I think we feel similarly, which is it's been like absolutely instrumental to my career at certain points. I have certainly found it much more useful when there is a specific issue that you are trying to address and work through. um I have also had experience of kind of longer term coaching, but that's more unusual. Many coaches like to learn
00:21:47
Speaker
like to work in well-defined kind of blocks to get you through to through the decision. um Yeah, what I would also say is like there can be a form of coaching which is more like coach mentoring, um which is where it's sort of coaching you to find the right decision for you, but they also impart their wisdom in a professional domain that is kind of relevant to yours. And I think that can be really, really good. But what you will often find is that good coaches do not want to mix the two, you're either being coached or you're being like coach mental, but they're very, they're very different because one is
Coaching as a Spiritual Path
00:22:27
Speaker
One, it's more like an advisor using their expertise to say, oh, in this situation in the past, I've done this, you might therefore want to think about this. Whereas coaching is is much more, you know, correct me if if you disagree, but it's more about searching through your soul for the right path for you and navigating your own way forward and they sort of guide you, but they they will not tell you what to do.
00:22:53
Speaker
Oh, I think you just described that in such a spiritual way, Annie. I love it.
Advocacy for Coaching
00:22:58
Speaker
um Fantastic. So good. um i so I would subscribe to the the cult of coaching. And I think actually coaching is something that's on, we haven't spoken about it yet, but it's on both of our development plans as well. um ah Coaching is something that I think as a line manager is a phenomenal skill, but um is also something that we both get asked by a lot of people to do and it is it is I think a gift if you have a coach because really that person is holding space for you to explore your thoughts and help guide you. So and could not rate coaching more highly.
Reflections on Career Regrets
00:23:39
Speaker
and Okay, have you ever made any career decisions that you regret? Have I ever made, yes, yes, I have, I have. um You know, i made ah I made a move into an organisation a few years ago that um I don't regret doing the move, but the person who offered me the job offered me it as a consultant or a full time. And they said, just whatever you want.
00:24:07
Speaker
like you can have it either way. And I absolutely should have taken that job as a consultant as a freelancer. It would have been a completely different role if I hadn't felt the pressure of like, this is my next kind of FTE role. And um so I do regret, I do regret that I don't regret going there, I definitely would have taken that role.
00:24:31
Speaker
But I do regret kind of jumping in to the commitment when I didn't need to. And and I could have like ah could have tried before I buy, you know, and I think if you can, if you have the opportunity to kind of try before you buy as a consultant, if someone offers you that.
00:24:47
Speaker
that is like always a pretty good idea. Like except for maybe when the job market is so uncertain. But if you back yourself to do a good job, the offer to start freelance and then go perm because you have some questions is generous and great. And I definitely regret not doing that. um Brackets, you might get paid more. Oh, for sure. For sure we've got paid loads more. And although I do hate doing freelance attacks,
00:25:16
Speaker
I can stomach that hatred. um I think there are a few other career moves I possibly slightly regret, but not many. That's the only one that stands out as like I had an opportunity to do something different that would have been better and I didn't take it and I do think that was a mistake.
00:25:37
Speaker
um Most of the other things are ah not ah not things I could wholeheartedly say that I regret because I learned so much from doing them. And you know here I am today, the professional woman that I am, they've made to me who I am. What about you? It's a really interesting question. ah As I was listening to your answer then, I was thinking there are some themes in there that apply to me too. I don't think there is a job that I have taken that I would just wipe out of my CV. That being said, I obviously didn't enjoy all of them. um And like, when when I was thinking about this, I was like, oh, my biggest regret was being forced to do a year in finance at Conde Nast, where on day one of my maternity cover role, I got restructured from strategy into finance and then spent
00:26:33
Speaker
a year, just doing horrible. I'm so sorry to the finance listeners here. It was so my numbing jowl and I was so bad at Excel. um But even then, like, I learned one, I never won a career in finance and two, I learned some Excel skills. um I think it's handy. Some, no not too many. um And I think the, when I think about what is there that I might regret. um I reflect more on my decision making around circumstances. Like I think I won't say where or when, but there was um a particular leader who had found out that I was leaving the company that they were um ah very senior for and influential. And they sort of made this like really
00:27:33
Speaker
really over the top exaggerated promise about like stay and we'll give you this role and we'll give you that and what do you want and what do you need and like basically just got strung along for ages having this conversation that actually materialized into nothing and I think I don't regret that experience but that's actually happened to me a couple of times where people have over promised in in a company and I've just fallen for it because I want to believe that it's true. And actually, um I now operate with like a much higher dose of skepticism about the stuff that is promised to me. But, you know, unfortunately, some people just do over promise and under deliver. And I think having having a bit more
00:28:21
Speaker
um ah savviness about myself earlier probably would have been helpful. But again, you have to learn that through being burned, I guess. Yeah, it's an it's an interesting one. I think like, it does happen a lot, doesn't it? does the The false promise. It is important if you can to like get, I mean, not that this can can always like mitigate it, but to like get things in writing and to like you know make make sure things are really clear when someone says something to you in a meeting, but then it's not like followed through on. um You're really good at that. I think you hold people to account really strongly, which is which is great, but I imagine a lot of people do not
00:29:07
Speaker
have experience of doing that, and therefore have possibly been promised a lot of things that never quite materialise. And it's good to keep track of the promises as well, right? Because then you can be like, oh, hold on, wait, we're six months down the line. And I have not heard that again. Yeah, totally. And, and like I think if you're working, if someone is dangling a carrot in front of you and has been for a really long time,
00:29:35
Speaker
and there is literally no sight of it coming whatsoever. You should probably have a think about whether it's ever coming. Yeah, absolutely.
Financial Needs & Job Offers
00:29:42
Speaker
Okay, tips and rules of thumb for career planning. I will start with mine first. Yeah, I just want to say, I don't have any. yeah Yeah, you go. Planning for the next role that you have. Look at what you're really good at and what you enjoy most and how you can make the best of that combination first. You go.
00:30:02
Speaker
um plan how much money you think you really need. e like And then how much money you think you really want.
Career Planning Tips
00:30:11
Speaker
And always have, like I think lots of people have a top number that they want, but very few people have a bottom number that they're clear on. And I think it's good to know what your true like bottom is and be quite firm on that ah because especially in like more startup cultures or more startup organizations where the pay ranges can be wild they can be like this is a chief marketing officer it could be anything from 30 to 150k it's like whoa right like what so you might find your perfect role but they might really really low ball you and like
00:30:53
Speaker
make sure you know what your like minimum value is even if you found this thing that's perfect for you and I would encourage you to really really not like have that as a hard line and not have conversations where that is not going to be met.
00:31:09
Speaker
um I have definitely like undervalued myself before quite significantly, I think, for like perfect opportunities or something I could talk myself into, where actually it was then really hard to live on that kind of wage. And um if there's anyone kind of thinking of doing that, especially when you're at the start of your career, I would say you know if there is a minimum and you don't think you can actually live well below that, you probably won't be very happy.
00:31:39
Speaker
if you do choose to then be below that. So just, you know, is it's it is from a position of privilege that I say this, but just like think really carefully about that bottom number, because what I find is most people only think about the top number. Oh, I want to be on this, I want to be on this, but we're not in a, we're not in an inflated pay moment right now in the job market. So also have a bottom number. That's incredible advice. I've never thought about a bottom number before. That's really good.
00:32:07
Speaker
um I would say as my next one, I tend to think one or two job roles ahead of where I am. It could be anything. I could be an astronaut one or two jobs from now. I sort of have ah a broad sketch out of how I would like the next probably three years of my career to go. And that is not in detail, but that is broadly like in three years time,
00:32:35
Speaker
this is what I want my life to look like. And that's how that fits around work. So for me, it's really helpful when I'm thinking about my career planning is just also trying on the feeling of like what your life could be like in whatever timeframe you want.
00:32:50
Speaker
and and how you can reverse engineer that backwards. A bit like how I was saying earlier when I said I want to be a director at 30 and then like how do you reverse engineer that to be true. um i'm I'm a big fan of reverse engineering for folk for what you want to do for career planning.
00:33:07
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's really good advice. You have to be careful of the thing that you said, which is like, if something happens, especially like circumstantial personal life, where you don't meet those goals, just, you know, little tip to be kind to yourself. Yeah, if you have a really fixed plan, and it doesn't happen, be kind to yourself, everyone. Be kind. Yeah.
00:33:26
Speaker
don't be really mean to yourself like I was. um I would also say that approach might not work for everyone because I'm the kind of person who feels really motivated by like a goal that feels out of reach.
Manager vs. Company Value
00:33:38
Speaker
um ah That's where I perform at my best just when I basically want to prove to myself and maybe some other people but mostly in myself that I could do that because it feels a bit impossible. yeah But that is not for everyone for sure. Yeah, that kind of Taipei overachiever.
00:33:56
Speaker
Vibe. Insecure overachiever. Amen. All right, one more tip from you, Lanny. Don't join a great company with an average line manager. That is not a good idea. Joining an average company with a great line manager can be a great idea. So I think what I'm saying is weight your manager more than weighting the company. I would agree with that.
00:34:26
Speaker
In most scenarios, I think the the only other, the only thing is like, if you're joining a tiny company, like a startup, do you check that they have like runway to hire you and stuff like be practical, you know, check that they're not really running out of cash, try and get them to be honest with you about the financial situation, assuming that is fine. And you can be there for like, let's say a year.
00:34:48
Speaker
then wait the line manager more than the company. I totally believe a line manager is really important. If you don't rate the person who's interviewing you, then I wouldn't even bother continuing to interview. I think that is super important. um As my kind of final rule of thumb or tip for career planning, I would say it's really, really valuable to just start putting in loads of coffees with people out in the market. like They don't have to be recruiting
Networking Importance
00:35:18
Speaker
totally. And I'm like, I hate networking. But it is really helpful. So like, when I was going through a bit of a period of like, exploring what I wanted to do, and when I was leading the civil service, I was like, should I go and do a public affairs policy job? And then I spoke to someone super senior at one of the like, major policy places. And I was just like,
00:35:43
Speaker
can you just tell me about like your day and like what do you do in your job and like what's really important to you and how does that work and it wasn't it wasn't for an interview I just was like I need to be able to understand like what your world looks like so I can understand better if I'm actually interested in it rather than just theorizing about how I might be interested in it I think it's just people are so happy to just be like I just need a career chat because I want to understand blah, blah, blah. And as long as you're kind of clear that it's no strength attached, you're like, I actually just think your job's really fascinating and I want to know more. um You know, you can get 15 minutes with someone, even if it's a few months away, um you can normally
Reverse Referencing Companies
00:36:23
Speaker
get that. So I would say that. And actually, Annie, you're really good at this. Because I remember we've spoken about this before, not on the pod, but
00:36:32
Speaker
um about speaking to levers. Do you want to talk a bit about that? Oh yeah, I reference this shit out of companies before I join them. Is that what you're talking about? Yeah, it's like reverse referencing. I love it. Yeah, yeah, I reference ah reference all over the place. I reference my line manager. I ask people Yeah, I ask people what they think of organizations. I try and get to know people who have like made interesting moves. um But yeah, referencing is a really good way to like build a contact base. Anyone who has like left an organization that you're thinking of going to, asking them, do they have five minutes to chat about it? Really good way to build connections. I think like I do always say what you've just said as well, which is like always ask. Always ask.
Maintaining Professional Networks
00:37:21
Speaker
Don't ask, don't get. Definitely worth trying.
00:37:25
Speaker
i would I would also say I am now, because I've done so much femtech, I'm now on the receiving end of such an extraordinary amount of asks from strangers that it's getting really hard for me to operationalise like any any of them.
00:37:42
Speaker
So I think 15 minutes or sending over some specific questions that you can answer quite concisely being really clear on the ask. So you said like you have a really fascinating career because of X fine. I would probably pay attention to that. I get a lot of like really quite general, you know, how do I get a job in femtech?
00:38:05
Speaker
could you help? And I'm like, i I cannot do those things, which is one of the reasons um I started my subdoc is I do want to help people do that, but I just cannot do it on that like one to one scale anymore. um But yeah, always ask because you do never know.
00:38:21
Speaker
referencing the one thing I would like so hard agree with you about this is like, people think that they can just switch their network on when they want to look for a job. And that is just so naive. um So I think that like keeping this network keeping in touch with people that you think are really interesting, that might do interesting things, that have done interesting things in the past. And not, you don't have to over-invest, but I do think that is part of professional development. Like a lot of the power and leverage you have once you get more senior is also who you know, just not just what you can do. and So yeah, think about your network, build it, be kind to people. Yeah, etc, etc.
00:39:08
Speaker
And I would say just also in in the kind of tone of how you do that, try not to make it too transactional. Like when like when it feels like, when it feels transactional and you you haven't earned kind of trust and credibility in that in that connection. yeah come Coming in hot with like a strong ask with no context and no pre-established relationship to me always feels like a knee jerk, no. Yeah, actually I think you're probably you're probably spot on there with why I'm finding it so overwhelming at the moment is because I am getting a lot of those and I'm i'm a bit like, oof, you know, well. I've just stopped replying.
00:39:51
Speaker
and I'm reading LinkedIn messages because like I've got enough things to do. but Greg, a baby. I don't have time for LinkedIn messages. Anyway, let's go to some listener
Actionable Career Planning
00:40:02
Speaker
questions. I think we've got two that are really important here. So the first one is, I'm feeling inspired by lots of things I could do, but I find it hard to focus this into an actionable career plan. Where should I start? I'm totally going to take this one. um If that's okay. Please do. Please do.
00:40:22
Speaker
I would start by, as I just said, like having a load of coffees and catch ups and quick calls with people who are in the field of the thing that you're thinking about. um I think it's a people, if you're genuinely enthusiastic and excited and approach someone with kind of compassion and care and interest and curiosity, um that always is a conversation that feels more enjoyable for the other person as well. um And you will just get to get a good sense of ah you know, the aspects of their job. So sponge up as much as you can from other people about it. I think you can also just do your own research, you can listen to podcasts, you could do, you know, that there are lots of different ways that you can self explore this without having a framework. I would say in the book that I mentioned at the start, that will be in the show notes, there is a particular exercise called Odyssey planning, which I think is absolutely incredible. I found it really helpful because it helps you to kind of
00:41:23
Speaker
look at the different career scenarios that you're considering and evaluate like, do I have the right skills for this? Do I have the right network for this? Do I have, yeah I'm sorry, I'm thinking of another example. but it And then it gets you to map out like what your life looks like over the five years, not just your career, but like your life. So, you know, when I was looking at McKinsey, I was like, oh, I'm probably really wealthy, but extremely tired um in five years time.
00:41:50
Speaker
But, you know, you get to think about it more holistically. So I found that really helpful. So I would recommend that to anyone who's thinking of a career pivot and they're not quite sure where to go to. um Last question for us, Annie, today.
Regaining Confidence After Setbacks
00:42:03
Speaker
The last few jobs I've had haven't worked out and I've lost confidence. I'm not sure I'm in the right industry and field. How do I work out what I should do?
00:42:14
Speaker
Yeah, interesting. So I think, um firstly, I'm sorry that you have lost confidence and I really do know what that feels like. um And it often leads to like, of course failure leads to a lot of reflection and a lot of uncertainty. I would try and look back on those roles that you kind of say have not worked and identify What you learned from them if there were any positives you could take from them and what you might change if you had your time again there and that might help you work out whether there is actually anything positive that can be taken from these experiences because theyre that probably is.
00:43:00
Speaker
And it will help you reframe those experiences into something more positive that is about like learning. And um I have definitely really worked on this skill, like reframing failure as learning and working on having a mindset like that has been very, very good for my overall confidence um and my ability and my resilience, my ability to kind of get back up after I've been knocked down. So that's what I would say is like,
00:43:29
Speaker
look back at them at critical eye, question the thought that they were all just negative, try and identify what you'd learn, try and articulate what you might do differently if you had your time again, and then use those thoughts to think about what is the right next move for you. And remember that the next thing doesn't have to be perfect, it just has to be a step in the right direction. Boom. Yeah, I mean, like mic drop moment from me there.
00:44:00
Speaker
That was lovely, honey. I would say i am I did a program this was ages ago before they launched Squeakly Careers um with Sarah Ellis and Helen Topper. He are also amazing and we'll link them in the show notes too. But um in the course, they got you to map along a long ah time horizon, the highs and lows of your career and like try to start exploring um what were the aspects of all of the highs and is there a theme around those. So I would encourage this person to
00:44:39
Speaker
kind of delve into when you felt really good in your career and that you were thriving, what were the conditions that made that true? And like, what are the aspects of you that you had at work at that time? um And that might be, you know, using a particular skill set or like, you know, helping someone or working, working with people or and interrogating what makes you feel good when you have felt your best and how you could leverage that ahead. And I think also, you should obviously look at the low points, but I wouldn't dwell on that too much. And then I also just think part of this is I would kind of encourage this person to do a bit of wildcard thinking around how could you apply. So just
00:45:27
Speaker
if If this person really feels like they they're in the wrong industry or the wrong field, what is an application of their strengths and skill sets in a totally different context? um you know If you are extroverted and you love people and you're in a desk job, um and but you love the outdoors, maybe you could go and work in like forest school or something. I'm making this up, but I think there's a lot to it.
00:45:58
Speaker
for like totally an odd Yeah, yeah, nice, nice. Good tips. and very Very good tips. i wouldn I wouldn't just focus on like, what jobs are out there and just repeatedly applying because I think if they've had a number of jobs that haven't worked out,
00:46:14
Speaker
that That probably sends you a message about you're maybe not doing something that plays to your own strengths and there may be a way more enjoyable version. So that's it. We've made it to the end.
Podcast Conclusion & Feedback Request
00:46:28
Speaker
Congratulations for listening. Thank you everyone for joining us on this ride. um We hope you enjoyed it. Whenever you have found us, please give us some stars and let us know what you think. Have a great day.
00:46:45
Speaker
Bye!