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S1, E5 The Career Coven: Managing Up
134 Plays10 months ago
Annie takes the lead in this episode, having strong feelings about how she likes her team to manage upwards to her. We discuss the importance of preparing for your line management meetings, knowing and communicating exactly what you need from your line manager, and establishing your boundaries early. Annie shares how one of the most common things people forget when managing upwards is that often, you are a small part of your managers whole job and responsibilities. Sometimes, this can lead to people feeling overlooked or unimportant - when really it’s about the time people have to invest across all their different priorities. Having empathy with your line manager, as well as expecting that they will show you empathy and support, is important for a relationship to be both successful and realistic.
We examine the often given advice that it’s important to be ‘easy to manage’ and we answer some listener questions on:
- How to deal with a manager who doesn’t like you
- How to deal with a manager blocking your progression
- How to manage up if you don’t trust your line manager
Content recs, references & extra reading
- Dealing with your incompetent boss, Amy Gallo, HBR
- Setting the Record Straight on Managing Your Boss, Amy Gallo, HBR
- Guide to managing up: What it means and why it’s important, CultureAmp
Are you a fan? Please like and subscribe on your preferred platform, and let us know what you think! hello@careercoven.com
P.S. This was our last planned episode for series 1. Let us know what extra topics you’d like us to cover next.
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Transcript
Introduction to Managing Up
00:00:06
Speaker
Hi, welcome to The Career Coven. This is episode five. And today we are talking about managing up. Now, Annie, I think you're probably a bit more thoughtful on this topic than I am. So I'm going to be the learner asking you questions and you're going to be the pro. Great. Let's shift the dynamic.
00:00:26
Speaker
I don't love that. I learn a lot from you. Okay. No, let's do it. Let's do it. I do have a lot of thoughts. I do have a lot of thoughts.
Why Manage Up?
00:00:34
Speaker
This is a topic I care a lot about actually. And do you care about it because you're talented at managing up or you know how you like other people to manage upwards to you? A hundred percent the latter, the latter. I don't think I'm, I can definitely talk about how I personally am managing up.
00:00:54
Speaker
I think there are ways in which I'm really easy. And I think there are ways in which I'm actually not easy to manage, which is one of the sort of core bits of advice, isn't it? That you get given, just be easy to manage. But yeah, it's much more from the perspective of I feel that I know what I want from the people I am managing. I know how I want them to manage me. And I think you're right. I mean, everyone says,
00:01:24
Speaker
you know, be easy to manage. And I think you've got to have some caveats in that sentence. Sometimes you have to be a bit difficult to manage to get what you want. See episode four on a surferness. But I think it's also part of your job as someone who reports into someone else's making your manager look good. And there's such an important relationship to have with your line manager because they are the person who are in charge of your destiny within the organization.
00:01:54
Speaker
not in charge of your destiny as a whole, but you spend a lot of time with them, working with them. And I think it's also really difficult to progress and be recognized and sponsored if you don't have a good relationship with your line manager. So really, really important.
Communicating with Managers
00:02:07
Speaker
Why don't you kick us off with the importance of your relationship with people who you line manage and how you see that working.
00:02:18
Speaker
Yeah, so totally agree with you. Your manager is like the single most important relationship you have at work. They can like massively enhance your career and your progression and they can also make your life, you know, harder, no question. So yeah, I mean, I think that it's really important to invest time upfront into building good communication with your manager.
00:02:47
Speaker
And to reference some of the other episodes we have, I think setting your boundaries really clearly upfront and helping your manager understand your communication style, how you like to ask questions, how you like to think, whether you're introvert or extroverted, all of that stuff, you should be talking to them about that pretty much the first meeting you have, I would have thought with them.
00:03:14
Speaker
and understanding their expectations of you both in the role but also as someone they're managing you know how frequently are you going to meet but also what do they expect you to prepare like who runs the meeting is it you as the person being managed fyi it usually is or is it them as the manager which i think is possibly a red a red flag if someone said that to you as a manager um
00:03:40
Speaker
But yeah, I think understanding both ways, communication style, preferences on communication, boundaries, mutual expectations. And I think if you do know that there are some really important things you need from a manager, then trying to tell them quite quickly near the beginning.
00:03:57
Speaker
This is what I need from you.
Feedback for Growth
00:03:59
Speaker
So for me, you know, feedback's really important. And with all of the managers I've had, I've always said that really upfront, you know, I like to get a lot of feedback. I like ad hoc feedback as well as very structured feedback. It doesn't need to be all the time, but I want, I want you to tell me like, if I'm basically doing something wrong, I want to be told that quickly. And if there's something that you think is a real strength, like I'd like to hear that at some point so that I'm kind of
00:04:26
Speaker
learning how you're perceiving my behaviours. But that's just something that I really expect and like from my manager. And it's not something that all people find easy. So that would be an expectation that I'm kind of setting up front. But yeah, I would say like, it's, it's important to spend enough time in the early line management phase with someone, understanding their communication preferences and style boundaries and explaining yours to them.
Work-Life Boundaries
00:04:55
Speaker
And I think that really sets this manager relationship off in the most positive way. And I think if you're not at the start of your line manager relationship, but you realize that you don't actually know these things about the person who is managing you, I think these are really good things to ask at any point.
00:05:16
Speaker
you know, I'm texting you after work hours, is that okay? You know, how does that fit into your work life? Is that something you like, you know, making sure- I hate being texted outside of work hours. Yeah, exactly. Whereas I don't mind at all, right? But like, it's, it's, you know, it is about like personal preference and about actually being able to have a conversation about
Adapting Communication Styles
00:05:36
Speaker
that. I think more people are like you than me on that one.
00:05:40
Speaker
fact boundaries. And I think, you know, you make a really good point so much of this is about communication. And ideally, you know, in any form of communication, it's two people and you kind of meet your styles in the middle and whatever is the most compatible compromise. In reality, in a kind of line manager managing relationship, that doesn't always happen. And I think the onus tends to
00:06:04
Speaker
I felt as someone who has had line managers the onus for me tends to be on adapting my style to them more so than I was going around. I think that's the expectation going in. I've had such a wide range of managers. I think it's really interesting when you have
00:06:27
Speaker
you know, some people who really like super structured sessions and one-to-ones. I've had recently line managers who love to chat. And I have to be like, here's my five agenda items I would like to get through today. And then I would love to chat to you at the end. And so I think even that right, like, that's better. What you just said is like always good. Having five agenda items that you want to discuss
00:06:57
Speaker
Knowing what you want from the meeting, I think, regardless of someone's style, that's really important for managing up, knowing what you need to get out of this meeting and being able to say that very in the first five minutes, even if, as you say, you've got like a waffly chatty like much more kind of
00:07:16
Speaker
you know, social in some ways, like line manager, who just wants to like catch up and make sure you're okay.
Building Trust with Managers
00:07:21
Speaker
You know, you have just managed them well, because you've said great. It's also like the battle of the introverts and extroverts, like the extroverts want to talk about everything. And I'm like, I'm here for a very specific reason. And I actually don't like talking to anyone. Yeah, so many people would think you were extroverted. Anyway, I'm, I've trained myself to appear extroverted, which is sad.
00:07:45
Speaker
Um, I think one of the, one of the really important things about line management relationship is trust. And, um, uh, I think there's a, there was a really nice, um, uh, there's a model called like the trust equation, which is, you know, building your credibility, your reliability and your intimacy with someone. And then that is divided by your self-orientation. So how much you're self-interested in the relationship between two people.
00:08:12
Speaker
I think this is a really interesting lens to think about the line manager-managing relationship. What does trust mean for you in a managing up context? Trust in a managing up context. One thing is that they're relatively accessible when I need them, so I can get hold of someone when I need something from them. That is one part of trust. I think to being able to
00:08:42
Speaker
vulnerable with them about how you're feeling or what you're doing or a combination of both of those things. And then I also think something that's really important for me when I'm managing up is consistency, you know, knowing what I will get from that person and knowing that
00:09:08
Speaker
that is always quite consistent and that I can then build trust that there aren't things that I could like say or do that would like massively sway them one way or the other because they always are going to give me whatever their kind of consistent behaviour set is. So like
00:09:24
Speaker
You know, I've had managers who are really structured and they're always really structured and I can kind of rely on them to kind of always give me that. I've also had managers who are really enthusiastic and that's like their thing is that they're always, even if you go to them with something really negative, they're always going to find the positive, but they are completely consistent in those quite different styles. But I think for me, that consistency is a really big thing I look for in whoever is line managing me. And it's also a way that when I'm managing up,
00:09:53
Speaker
I am trying to be consistent with for them as well. And that's not being emotional. Like that's not the same thing. It's actually about like being reliable, consistent, dependable in your actions, in the way that you present things, in the way that you talk to them and what you bring to them. So I think that's another really important kind of two-way dynamic. I've got another question for you on the back of that. You mentioned vulnerability, which I think is really important and you know, you
00:10:23
Speaker
you and your line manager there to help each other to do the best work for the best outcome.
Emotional Intelligence in Manager Relations
00:10:29
Speaker
What kind of role do you see kind of emotions playing in that relationship and what space do you think is the right kind of space to hold for emotions in a managing up scenario? I think it's really important that there is
00:10:50
Speaker
that the manager-managee dynamic has space for emotions. I think it is most important that your manager makes space for your emotions as the person being managed. That is absolutely part of their job. They have a pastoral role for your care in the workplace. Unlike any other colleague, they are the one who is kind of
00:11:12
Speaker
tasks with also making sure that you are actually okay. It's not your kind of other friends there that actually have that formal sort of pastoral role. So I do think it's really important. I think it's when thinking about managing up, I also think it's really important to understand that your line manager is a person too and that they have emotions and that
00:11:37
Speaker
Although you are 100% an important part of their job, you may only be quite a small part of their day or quite a small part of their job. And I think that one thing
00:11:49
Speaker
that can be really difficult with managing up is actually realizing that and sort of ingesting it that you are, your success is not your line manager's sole job. And I think. I've never thought about that actually, because when you, when you have a line manager who's got, let's say four or five other people, they're line managing, you are whatever 20, 25% of their, the proportion of their week and head space that is devoted to line management.
Understanding Managerial Challenges
00:12:18
Speaker
rather than that you being the most important relationship. Exactly. And like, you know, in smaller businesses, you see this all the time, like with founders start founder led startups is the founders have so much pressure, so much going on investors like sales, you know, all of this stuff at the start, they're also often line managing almost the whole team at the beginning. So there'll be line managing maybe five, maybe 10 people like quite a lot. And
00:12:46
Speaker
know, when employees like start to feel that things are going wrong or they're not getting what they need or they're not getting the time they need, it can be very difficult for them to understand that there is also a two-way dynamic here and you are a small part of that person's job and even though they actually want to give you the time and space, they may actually not always be able to and I think
00:13:08
Speaker
It's not tolerating that for too long. It's not something I advise when managing up, but being aware and empathetic towards the fact that there will be other parts to your boss's job is one of the most important things for establishing a strong two-way relationship. And I think in terms of emotions, showing that you understand that, asking about the other things in their job, making sure that they are okay, as well as
00:13:36
Speaker
you, them making sure that you are okay can be a really, really fruitful kind of exercise and way to build trust and way to build like this emotional space is kind of saying like, oh, actually, I know you did have that big board meeting. You know, how did that go? It's not always just like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna take from you all the time. I totally agree. I think as I'd say with my last few line managers, my, the role that I play in, um,
00:14:05
Speaker
being managed has evolved, I think, into being much more of a bit of a counsel for them rather than sort of wanting things from them. And that's just really like giving them the space to soundboard. I think it's really interesting when you have a particularly extroverted
Expressing Aspirations
00:14:25
Speaker
thinker manager who will basically call you just to speak through their own thoughts to make sure that they get to the right conclusion.
00:14:34
Speaker
I don't necessarily find that an enormously effective use of my time, but it is a very effective use of their time to get to the conclusion that they want to reach. And also it gives you quite a good insight into being able to understand your line manager's thought process, I think, which is actually quite valuable, even if you don't get an outcome from it yourself. Having that exposure to that is helpful.
00:14:58
Speaker
Yeah. And understanding the context of what is going on in the level above you is really, really smart. Like that can never be a bad thing as someone that's looking to like progress in an organization. And I think that you're absolutely right. You know, as you get more senior and you step up from being kind of a junior to a mid-level to like where you are now, which is, you know, it's very senior. That line manager, line manager relationship does get more, it gets more equal, frankly. Like it gets more, um,
00:15:26
Speaker
Yeah, it gets more counsel, advisory, because they respect your opinion and they know that you are there to also help them do their job well. And so part of that will be letting them actually also be vulnerable with you and say, oh my God, I'm really freaking out about this meeting. Can I talk through all of this stuff? And even if you're not in the meeting and it doesn't relate to your day job, that can be really impactful for them. So, but yeah, I would absolutely say that like two-way empathy is
00:15:56
Speaker
is really important but it's definitely not there in every line manager, line manager relationship. Can I ask you a question? Yeah. What advice would you give to someone who's in a situation where they
00:16:12
Speaker
struggle to kind of connect with their line manager. And that might be kind of emotionally or like maybe they're just not the favourite. You're not a bad performer, you're just a mid-level and not the golden child. What advice would you give for that scenario? I think getting things out into the open
00:16:33
Speaker
is really important because you might just be assuming that you're the mid performer, assuming that you're not the favourite. Whereas actually you're so easy to manage that they just let you get on with it and they don't give you all the praise because they've never thought that you need any praise. So there can be a lot of assumptions in like kind of being in the middle or not being the favourite.
00:16:52
Speaker
But I think in general, I would advise to try and in quite a structured way, kind of get back to basics with that person, understand, help them understand that you don't think this relationship is quite where it needs to be, express what you would like it to look like.
Email Communication Tips
00:17:10
Speaker
Clear communications, actionable things. I think one of the things that I find helpful, and I've developed this position based on
00:17:20
Speaker
I used to manage and I've seen this in quite a few people where they'll be working through something really complex and they'll write me this like 1500 word essay email laying out 100% of the context and then asking me what do I think at the end of it and I have to say that is my
00:17:45
Speaker
least favourite form of communication. Yeah. Long-winded, takes a lot of time for you to ingest it, you know, and then you're asked like an open-ended question at the end, not specifics. Yeah. What do you think it's like? That's too much work for me. It's too much work. I've got a million other things on. I don't like to read something that dense and you know, it's going to take me like an hour to unpick in full. And so with these, with these people that, um,
00:18:12
Speaker
I've managed to have done this before. I've coached every single one of them into before writing that email again saying, what do you think I'm gonna say? And they'll go, I think you'll say this. And I'm like, yes, that is exactly what I would say. Go do it. And then it's like, what would that do? You know? Good. So you've coached them all.
00:18:37
Speaker
You've coached a lot of people that you've managed to think, what would Beck do? I mean, effective. Effective. I like it. You know, this links to something else I feel so passionately about, which is preparing for your time with your line manager, like...
Meeting Preparations
00:18:57
Speaker
you know, there is nothing more that fucks me off when people have an hour of my time and they have not prepared a thing to talk to me about. And they're like, it's, they start meeting like, yeah, things are good, like blah, blah, blah. And in the meantime, you know, you've obviously heard from 18 other people that things aren't good. And like, it often happens more, I think,
00:19:21
Speaker
when people are actually not performing well, because they stop they stop needing you to problem solve because they've maybe checked out a bit or they've stepped back or they're so overwhelmed that they actually don't know what's taught you about. But I think it's like, just out of respect for someone's time, prepare for it, think about it, it should be really valuable for you on either an emotional or practical level this time with your line manager. Okay, so
00:19:50
Speaker
Let's say you've got someone to prepare the meeting. They're like really conscientious. They're like, Annie, here are my five agenda items and I have prepped and I'm telling you all the things that I've achieved as well and I'm doing fantastically. And actually this person maybe isn't so vocal if they're struggling about something and perhaps like holds that in. At what point and when and how would you want someone to kind of communicate that with you?
00:20:18
Speaker
So I as a manager, but I would be totally open to this as a managing up technique as well.
Well-being and Performance Communication
00:20:26
Speaker
I, as a manager, like to do a kind of traffic light sort of check-in at the start of a meeting, red, yellow, green. If you're red, it's like, I'm struggling with something and it's really affecting me and my performance. If it's Amber, it's like things are okay, but I'm not feeling like great. I've got a few things on my mind. Green is like, yeah, I feel good. Things are going well. And you know, we're talking about like positive things and like performance and stuff.
00:20:57
Speaker
And so I like to start all of my meetings. Actually I've sort of got out of this habit a bit now I'm saying it but certainly like last year I started my meetings with this traffic light and I think it is a really good way to like break down boundaries of like actually if you're a red
00:21:17
Speaker
let's really talk about that. Let's make sure that we talk about why you're a red because that's the most important thing that we should be talking about. I don't, you know, in this case, the agenda, if it doesn't have the reason for red on the agenda, is not as relevant to me. And yeah, I think the flip side, you know, is if I was managing up and someone wasn't giving me this emotional space, like,
00:21:41
Speaker
introducing that traffic light system and saying actually could we start our one-to-ones with something like this so that you know how I'm doing so that we monitor week on week am I you know where am I in this really simple three-tiered system and you then sort of also see that you you are making progress or you aren't week on week with this person. It's a really simple way to
00:22:09
Speaker
to create the space to check in emotionally, both like from the manager to the manager. Can I ask though, you know, if people feel like they should be easy to manage, are they not just more likely to kind of self-select green and keep quiet? Like what are the kinds of colours that you get in these conversations?
00:22:33
Speaker
Oh, you get so much, Amber. I'm rarely ever agreed because I put so much pressure on myself, right? If someone gave me like six straight months, for example, of just being green, I would be like, you know, do we have the trust and the honesty where you're actually telling me what's going on? And if it is all for good reasons, then maybe that person really does need a more stretching role. Yeah. I think there's like different reasons why you could be consistently green, right?
Career Progression Conversations
00:23:02
Speaker
Okay, let's talk about managing up in the context of progressing. How do you like to be spoken to about people's aspirations for promotion? So I like to know about them well in advance. You know, if you think you're like knocking on the door of the person above you,
00:23:22
Speaker
I would love to know about that as soon as you start feeling it. So that might be like six months in advance of like an actual promotion in some organizations. It might be longer than that.
00:23:34
Speaker
But I think when you, as in this safe space that ideally you've created with your manager, when you start to feel like, I think I could do that person's job or like, I'd really like to do more client management or to do more of this stuff directly, vocalize that, tell them that you think you are ready for it, say that you would like opportunities from them to practice, show that you have the humility of
00:24:03
Speaker
of knowing that you probably don't know how to do it from the position you're in today, but you are really ambitious and you want to learn how to do it and you want to progress. I think making sure that it's really, really clear between the two of you. This is the expectations of the role above you. This is how long it typically takes to get here. I'm now aware as the manager that I know to give this person opportunities and you are, as the person managing up, being very direct that you
00:24:34
Speaker
you think you can do it, you want to learn, you are keen, you understand what the next role takes and you want opportunities to try and test and learn, you know, those skills. So yeah, and then when it comes to sort of closer to the time and like
00:24:49
Speaker
you're sort of factually trying to like get the step up and like get the role. I think it's kind of the same principles we've already discussed. Clear examples of what you think kind of hits this performance, feedback, like mutually, any kind of feedback you can collect from other people, the evidences that you have met this criteria, being really clear on
00:25:12
Speaker
how disappointed you would be if you haven't met that and what the implications of that disappointment might be like I know if I want to know if you're going to leave you know and I think in the ideal and this is quite rare but I do think in the ideal line manager
00:25:28
Speaker
line manager relationship, you can say that. I've certainly had a couple of line managers who I have absolutely trusted them and told them, you know, I don't think I'm getting the professional growth I need here. And therefore, I'm probably going to leave. And they have been really comfortable with having a very open conversation with me about whether
00:25:47
Speaker
they agree with that, whether there are opportunities in the organization and like that they would support me to leave if that was my decision. So I think that's like the pinnacle right of line management relationship. Yeah, although like you're, you're placing a lot of onus on that being a good line manager there. So, so I think in a lot of my roles, I, I have been
00:26:08
Speaker
fairly honest about the nature of my exit. And that's normally like I'm seeking a promotion or I feel like my time in this organization is done, but I've loved it. Thank you so much. There are scenarios in which I have and haven't given that notice. There is one time where I have given that notice and it's really bit me in the ass. Like I got cut out of the bonus prematurely, which I was really cross about. So I think actually,
00:26:39
Speaker
In my circumstances, I would temper that with the amount of trust that you have in that relationship because if you don't necessarily trust that person, then they don't, they're not owed the courtesy of that information. No, totally. To go back to the question.
00:26:58
Speaker
on the progression conversations, you know, it's like, it is that stuff. It's clear examples, structured, you know, making it really well evidence, make it easy for me to promote you. Do you know what I mean? Because as we have discussed in previous episodes, there's a lot of admin in a lot of organizations to move someone up. And if you are sort of doing some of that work for me, dream, where it's really difficult is when someone just out of the blue, and I'm sure you probably have this more than me, just sort of says, yeah, I think I'm actually this role now. I think I'm actually performing at it and I want
00:27:28
Speaker
I want to move up because it's so hard to retrofit conversations if that's not the case. Yeah. You know, I've had loads of those loads and loads and there's like, really not very much you can do about that at that point. And, you know, I think it's, it's much easier as a manager to have that conversation when it starts as a kernel of a thought and you can develop it together. But when it has gone and sort of blown up in the individual's mind in isolation without voicing it.
00:27:57
Speaker
it's really difficult to row that back and apply it in the correct way that would make them worthwhile for that promotion. I think people just get caught up in their heads a lot about what they think they are and where they think they should be and seeing people who are more senior than them. And they go, I could do that. So I should be doing that. And I should be getting paid what they're getting paid and all those sorts of things. And that's
00:28:25
Speaker
when someone has gone that far down the path, it can be really difficult to have a conversation with them about what's realistic and practical.
Dealing with Personal Dislike
00:28:36
Speaker
What happens if either the line manager or manager just doesn't like each other? How's managing up in that context? I think it's actually probably harder to manage up well than for the manager
00:28:50
Speaker
Like I have managed people I don't like personally, but I have still, I think been quite consistent in my kind of manager techniques. I think it is much harder if you really don't like and trust the person you are trying to manage up with. You know, if you don't think that they listen to you, respect you, like you.
00:29:11
Speaker
It is factually difficult to establish the trust that you need for a good line manager and line manager relationship. You know, first thing, try and talk about it, try and address it. There may be some hidden assumptions there. But honestly, if you actually think they personally don't like you, I'm not sure that that's going to be a very conducive
00:29:32
Speaker
work environment for you to like persist in, you know, assess whether there is something you can do to build that relationship up, possibly give it a timeline of like, I want to put effort in for a few more weeks to see if I can like crack this nut and blah, blah, blah, but I wouldn't expend
00:29:52
Speaker
years of your life trying to make someone like you on a personal level that you feel really doesn't because it is hard to be vulnerable, trusting, if you actually feel that the person that has the most sway over your career doesn't like you. The biggest blocker to my progression is my manager. Well, if that's honestly true for you, leave.
00:30:17
Speaker
like, I really believe that. I think this is so interesting, though, because it really depends on your perspective. Like, as you were just talking, I was thinking about one example that I've had where I was managing someone in an organization and they were, I'd say, right on the cusp of low performing for quite a long time. And I was investing a lot of effort to move that, to move that up. And they perceived that as
00:30:46
Speaker
probably not an experience that they enjoyed and we've discussed this, I'm fine not to be liked at work, that's okay for me. But this person then went on to start talking about me quite poorly to other people around, became really quite toxic and
00:31:05
Speaker
when you're lie managing, well, actually, let me give the inverse advice. If you were the person in that position, I would advise you not to speak to others widely in the organisation about that, because all that does is get back to me via many means. Always. And that is a total erosion of trust. It's very, very difficult. I can have a relationship with someone and trust them and poor performance manage them. But
00:31:32
Speaker
If they break that trust, it's really hard for me to get past that because I'm a human and that's not very nice. Yeah. And I think, you know, I think for the person managing up in that situation, the right thing to do from my perspective would have been to have a conversation with you.
00:31:54
Speaker
about how they were perceiving your style because you were actually trying to help them. But it may have come across as like micromanaging, for example. And what they needed to do, I think in that scenario is say, what's going on? Like it's feeling a bit like this. Can you help me understand what's happening here from your perspective? Because for me, you know, I'm experiencing it like this and I'm starting to feel XYZ.
00:32:21
Speaker
And you are perfectly capable of having that conversation. And it might have also gone very badly in this case. That might have ended up being a not good conversation. It might not have helped. But definitely I agree that trying to solve an interpersonal relationship outside of the interpersonal relationship is probably not a good thing generally. There's not going to be someone that could whisper in Beck's ear, can you be nicer to Annie? And that's actually going to solve that
00:32:49
Speaker
issue, right? Like, it's going to be Beck and Annie's conversations that build like the relationship back up. But yeah, it's, it's, there are, you know, many, many people who are very, very conflict avoidant. And so having that managing up conversation would be very hard.
00:33:08
Speaker
But I think the great irony maybe in this situation is if she had been able to have that conversation with you, you probably would have quite respected that she had. And it probably would have built more trust in her self-awareness, for example. And you might have felt differently about some of your style. But yeah, that's not good. That's not good vibes. It's never going to help. It's just not going to help. I've had that before as well, by the way. I totally have.
00:33:38
Speaker
good and bad really, you want to be able to talk about it with your line manager.
Trust and Openness in Relations
00:33:42
Speaker
So you also want to be able to like give really positive feedback directly to each other, as well as give really negative feedback directly to each other. But it is hard, it is hard to create that space, especially when you feel like someone is in control of your destiny. And I think lots of people do, in some ways rightly think that their line manager is kind of in control of their destiny at work.
00:34:04
Speaker
And it takes quite the move to outmaneuver your line manager. Like that's the truth. I think a lot of people think they can do it. And I'd say in all scenarios, they can't. It's very hard. I've rarely seen that happen, I have to admit. Like it's not common for people to
00:34:26
Speaker
you know, if your line manager really thinks you're the worst, if you don't wanna make a lateral move, it's still gonna matter what that line manager says, that lateral, you know, that's still gonna be the most important reference for your lateral move away from them. And I'm sure it has happened and I'm sure it does happen, but in general, it's quite rare to outmaneuver your line manager. And I would also say, having gone through some of this myself or in the other side of it,
00:34:56
Speaker
whenever HR gets involved, they will be on the line manager's side. Always. I mean, I haven't like, I haven't worked in many organizations with like a really mature HR function, but I have worked in a couple and a hundred percent that resonates like a hundred percent. They will default to the side of the line manager. Correct. It would take a lot for that to change. And I think.
00:35:24
Speaker
I perhaps have been naive earlier in my career in the scenario where I said I got cut out of my bonus that HR actually might see some sense in something, but no, they don't. They're there for the business. They're there for the organization. They're there that they will default to the senior rank. That's it. Exactly. And especially if you're like junior, like mid-junior, mid, I think like what happens, you are quite far away from the top at those levels.
00:35:54
Speaker
There is just like some, you know, don't be too naive about like, about this stuff, like really try and invest in building a good relationship with your line manager, even if it feels difficult and hard and challenging. Um, you know, practically sometimes, well, actually I do this a lot. I like write things down that I find hard to say. And then I say in the meeting.
00:36:18
Speaker
I'm actually, can you not interrupt me? I'm actually going to read something. I've written it down because I find it quite hard to have conversations like this and I'd really appreciate it if you just let me kind of talk about this, kind of start to finish. The majority of people, if you ask them not to interrupt them,
00:36:34
Speaker
and you tell them you're finding what you're about to say quite hard, won't interrupt you and will let you at least speak and get out into the open. But I find it easier in those like really quite vulnerable moments where I feel really uncomfortable potentially addressing something to have it written down and to feel like I know that I'm prepared, I've thought about it and I'm actually going to get this across in the right way, even if I do sound like a bit of a robot sometimes. That's okay.
00:37:03
Speaker
You just do whatever you need to do to get the words out in the right form. I think that's great. I love that. Okay. Well, the first question, which I think we feel the same on, but I'm going to ask it to you because you've been asking me a lot of questions. How would you handle your boss getting in the way of your progression?
00:37:24
Speaker
I feel quite strongly about this one that if your line manager is the person blocking your progression, you need a new manager. Like you need a new job. Your manager is going to be the person who enables your progression and does the six months of admin and does all of those things to open all those doors for you. And if they are giving you signals that they are actively disinterested in doing that,
00:37:55
Speaker
I'd say that's going to be a hard slog, and it's probably time to move. You know, there might be, if I'm, if I'm interpreting the manager's position a bit more generously, it could be that they might not think that you're ready. Or they might think that these are the things that you need to work on. And actually, these are the particular deliverables or behaviors or
00:38:20
Speaker
those sorts of things that they would want to see demonstrated, but they would owe you that feedback to tell you that you needed to do those things in order to be able to progress. If they haven't told you that, they also might be conflict avoidant, but you also can't change who you're being managed by. So I think in both of those scenarios, if you feel like you're genuinely boxed in, it's probably time to go.
00:38:46
Speaker
Yeah, I agree. I think the only thing I would say is I have met people with a kind of fictional belief that their line manager is blocking their progression.
Identifying Progression Blocks
00:38:58
Speaker
So I do think it's important to make sure that that's true.
00:39:03
Speaker
So like have a conversation with them, say this is how I'm feeling because of XYZ, is that true? And that at least gives them an opportunity to give you this feedback. But I think, you know, I have met people who basically just by being in the role above them, so by that role not being available, they will say the term
00:39:28
Speaker
my manager is blocking my progression. And I'm like, well, are they or are you just ready to step up and there's not a gap here? Because that's not their fault, you know, necessarily in what they might be blocking your progression. But like, they also might not be it might just be that like factually, you're ready to move up, there's not another role here. You'd want them to be able to give you that feedback to your point. But
00:39:51
Speaker
Yeah, I would say to this person, just check. Check that it really is your line manager doing it and that it's not something that you've kind of interpreted wrongly. Because sometimes it probably isn't your line manager, but it can seem like it is.
00:40:12
Speaker
Okay, there's the next one. Can you still manage upwards effectively if you don't trust your boss and or senior management? Probably not that well. Like, if you really don't, you know, I think we've, we've probably sort of covered this in
00:40:27
Speaker
We've traversed this across this episode. Like foundationally, I think we both agree that like the most important thing between you and your line manager is some kind of trust. You don't have to love each other's company. You don't have to love each other's sense of humor. You don't have to want to go to the pub with them, but you do have to trust that you can like have some hard conversations with them, problem solve with them, et cetera.
00:40:51
Speaker
If that is not there at all, not just for you and your line manager, but also for the senior management team, like that then sounds like you don't trust sort of anyone in this organisation. I would also challenge this person that I, I have been exposed to a number of senior leadership teams where in some they all feel a bit challenged, but actually individually
00:41:20
Speaker
you will be able to find a beacon of hope in there. Like, I don't think it's true that 100% of the senior management team is untrustable, for example. That's a scenario. It would be very unusual. Yeah, I find difficult to wrap my head around. You know, you may find the decisions that they make as a unit, not ones that you would agree with, but there are always, I think there are always, and maybe it's not the obvious senior leaders, there are always people who
00:41:48
Speaker
are clever and sensible and are a voice in the room, you just don't see that play out. And sometimes those can be really valuable mentors and sponsors in the business, particularly if you're having a bit of a difficult relationship with your line manager. But I think in terms of the question was asked about, can you manage upwards effectively? And even if you don't trust them,
00:42:11
Speaker
you can still try and get what you want out of them on a day-to-day basis. You can still prep for the meetings, you can still ask them questions. Yeah, you can still do all the factual things that we have been saying. Yeah, it's just transactional, which is not a premium experience, but gets the job done, I'd say. Okay, how can you manage upwards if you have a manager slash leader who doesn't listen?
00:42:38
Speaker
How do you deal with leaders who won't make decisions but don't delegate so that you could make them?
Managing Indecisive Leaders
00:42:46
Speaker
Probably two different. Let's start with the listen one. Can you manage upwards with someone who doesn't listen? I think you have to be really, really precise and prioritise like the top one thing that you want them to hear.
00:43:06
Speaker
Um, you won't get all of your stuff heard. So I think this is about like prioritization of intervention and say.
00:43:15
Speaker
Agree. I also think you probably then have to, you do have to be a bit creative about getting your needs from elsewhere. You'd maybe find a mentor, you'd maybe find someone else in another team that you trust that has some of the information that you need that you could go to and sort of work around it. So become less reliant on this person. If they really don't listen, probably how they are with everyone, right? So the one thing is that like,
00:43:41
Speaker
It may not actually damage your progression as much because they'll probably be known for that. And actually it can look quite good if you can still get your work done when you work for someone like that, ironically. But yeah, I think you're right. Don't expect too much. Okay. So the other question. How do you deal with leaders who won't make decisions, but also won't delegate them to let you make them? So I think there are two scenarios here.
00:44:09
Speaker
The person doesn't make decisions because they're the kind of person who's not very good at being decisive or they don't have the authority to make the decision. And I think a lot of the time people assume that leaders are passive or don't make a decision because they can't be bothered when in fact there's often a whole other world of context at play that means that they're not able to make a decision. That is my
00:44:38
Speaker
That's my initial response is that it may be that they can't make the decision, not that they won't make a decision. Do you want to answer the other half of the question on someone who's not decisive and not, not delegating? If this is like consistent, you know, you really feel that they cannot make any decisions based off information that you give them or other, you know, that probably is more of a kind of systemic thing to try and address. And I would just ask them very directly.
00:45:08
Speaker
I'm getting, I need this from you. I'm now blocked because you're not making a decision. What more information can I give you to help you make that decision? I really need this to progress. And if they, if they have an answer to, I need this information, obviously, you know, there you have it, go and get the information, try to whatever. But if it is just like, they're really stressed, for example, they're really overwhelmed. They think they're about to get fired. They don't want to make any decisions because that, you know, that kind of paralysis will probably come out in these conversations. And then.
00:45:37
Speaker
I don't know, to be honest, my advice in that scenario would probably be like, sit patiently, see what happens. Because like, really, if someone above you cannot make any decisions, it probably reflects that something is about to happen. Yeah, I mean, just just to add a tiny note on to the end of that, I think I would just ask my manager what needs to change in order for this decision to be made. And, you know, you might have that might be slightly more revealing of
00:46:07
Speaker
how much control they have. And I think people assume lots of control is available when sometimes it's not. All right, thank you so much for joining us. And we will see you next time. You can like and subscribe on all the channels where you can find us, Spotify, Google, Apple, and give us a five-star if you feel like it.