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S2, E4 The Career Coven: Building a Great Team with Lizzi Amartey
75 Plays4 months ago
In this week’s episode, Annie speaks to Lizzi Amartey. Lizzi is the Head of People at the UK non-profit Founders Pledge. Lizzi has worked across the globe in HR, and is passion about how to build diversity into teams. Annie and Bec decided that given Lizzi’s incredible background, we should focus the chat on how to build diverse and high performing teams.
Listen in to hear a discussion about:
- Is there a ‘right’ construction of a team?
- What most often goes wrong when trying to build a team
- How to remove ‘bad apples’ from the team
- How to hold an organisation to account for diverse hiring
- Tips for hiring diversely
- How to ask about diversity in a job interview process
Enjoying this content? Please rate and subscribe on your preferred platform, and let us know what you think! hello@careercoven.com
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Transcript
Introduction to The Career Covenant
00:00:07
Speaker
Hello, and welcome to The Career Covenant. It's Beck here, and this week, Annie is interviewing one of my bestest friends, Lizzie and Marty. We thought it would be better if Annie did the interview, because I'm not sure Lizzie and I would stay on topic, but it is an absolute banger, and I hope you enjoy it.
Meet Lizzie: HR Insights
00:00:27
Speaker
Lizzie is a people professional, an HR business partner. I learn something from her every time I talk to her, and she is so incredibly thoughtful,
00:00:37
Speaker
and empathetic and sensible, which is everything that you want out of your HR partner. We asked Lizzie some questions today about how to build a great team. She shared some really insightful sponsors around diversity. And we also asked her some of the harder questions like what to do with bad apples. And ah there's a fascinating end of podcast discussion on whether there should be a higher tolerance for bad behavior for top performers. So hope you love it.
Lizzie's Career Journey
00:01:15
Speaker
So we just thought we'd start by asking you to tell us a bit about your own career and before we start kind of asking loads of questions on how to build great teams and more intense stuff. um It would be great to hear just a little bit about your career. Great. So um I have had my career primarily in the civil service in HR roles.
00:01:40
Speaker
and of e are as HR business partners. That basically means helping senior leaders to run their teams and and get things done. And then I also had a couple of roles where I was the head of people, which again, a bit like a mini head of HR and worked with different teams based all over the world, actually, which was a real privilege. And and then last year I left government and joined a small nonprofit organization, a small
00:02:19
Speaker
HR and people team and they basically help entrepreneurs and raise funds and contribute funds to some of like the biggest, trickiest causes ah course across the world. So helping entrepreneurs with but their philanthropy again. Oh, cool. such a That's such an amazing thing to do. I think that existed, but it definitely should. It's actually quite a few different organizations that that do that kind of thing. But yeah, it it it feels kind of niche. It's different to what I was doing before. But yeah, still in the HR, people's face. and Yeah, definitely my passion. Nice.
Why Diverse Teams Matter
00:03:00
Speaker
And yeah, we wanted to talk to you about like team and how to build a good team and how someone within kind of the HR people division thinks about like team composition and and balance because I don't know if it's talked about, you know, that much publicly. It's definitely talked to about like behind closed doors for sure with small groups.
00:03:20
Speaker
Um, so to jump into like quite a tricky question, I would say, um, is there, uh, a right, like a correct construction of a team in your view and what sort of traits do you think are the most important ones to balance in that kind of right team setup? Yeah, it's a great question. I think.
00:03:45
Speaker
I think there isn't necessarily a right construction of a team because teams have to do so many different things. And the ah goal, the mission of different organizations can vary so greatly. and However, I do think that, and let's take like the corporate world. and when you are If you have the privilege to build a team, and there are a few things you should try and get right. And so for me,
00:04:15
Speaker
um, and for lots of HR, uh, professionals and practitioners, like we talk about, we've been talking about diversity for a long time. And that doesn't necessarily mean what people think it means. It doesn't mean, oh, make sure you've got some men, make sure you've got some women or make sure, you know, it's not, it's not, uh, necessarily what we mean. What we mean is there should be different people from different experiences, different life experience, different perspectives, different thought, you know, kind of, and yeah, thinking, different ways of thinking, like, oh there should be some element of difference in a team. and You'll also get some people who are tend to be really analytical, and you'll get the people who love to drive forward with action. And so I think there are there are different traits you should be hiring for, depending on the team, depending on what you're trying to
00:05:13
Speaker
are trying to get done. You have people who are a little bit more strategic. You have people who are good at starting things or really bad at finishing things. That's me. um And you have people who are really good at like completing things. And so I think if you can, when you're building a team, the the balance is necessary. you You should have different types of people and yeah in it.
00:05:36
Speaker
Yeah, it's so, um it's so interesting. Cause like, yeah, you're right. Everyone has their own kind of interpretation, I think of what diversity means. um And in tech where like, or in like tech startups, I, in general, I would say I think that diversity is quite
Diversity in Tech Startups
00:05:54
Speaker
poor. I think that would surprise anyone. um But it isn't just, you know,
00:06:01
Speaker
Ethnic diversity isn't just like gender diversity. It is that like diversity of thought, like if everyone just went to private school and then went through like Russell Group universities, like in all honesty, you you just don't have that much diversity, whether or not it looks, you know, visually like you do. And not that I'm saying that on the gender or the ethnic diversity, they have it right. But I think there's also this thing of like, oh, well, if we if that if if it's the same like composition of person it's sort of fine and it's like no that is the whole you know that is the whole point is that we're that we all think the same and and it and it brings in loads and loads of risk doesn't it for like problem solving and you know the way you approach things so totally totally agree um so i think what do you what have you seen go wrong the most often when when building teams and creating i guess creating cultures
00:07:00
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, you mentioned it, like if you have lots of people from a similar background, um you do get groupthink and we it it can happen in a much more subtle way than you kind of maybe expect. and ah A hundred percent. Yeah. and you so I mean, I think it's tricky because we're human and because we're human, we have bias. Hiring people involves a lot of bias. There are essentially there's so many different sorts of
Biases in Hiring and Team Diversity
00:07:29
Speaker
bias.
00:07:30
Speaker
Essentially we gravitate to people who share similar traits. We've been doing that since like the beginning of time. And so I think what tends to happen sometimes, why is he going wrong is people not having like a diverse panel to actually do the hiring. such a good pair People are often in a hurry when they're hiring. Somebody's left. I really empathize with managers. Somebody's left. You've got loads of work to do. You need to fill this vacancy. That person was so good at X, Y and Z. Let's find someone else who's so good at X, Y and Z.
00:07:59
Speaker
And so you kind of try and hire like for like, maybe instead of stepping back and looking at your team and saying, okay, how are we doing? What do we need? yeah Do we have any gaps? And does it have to be this kind of person? Or could we take a risk and and go for this? And so and I think also in teams, people get comfortable and people want to enjoy their work. Again, something I really empathize with. I think um what people don't talk about a lot, it's so easy for HR practitioners or leaders to say, Oh, we care about diversity. We care about inclusion. We want to hire a diverse from a diverse pool. Yeah. Sometimes you you don't always get access to that pool. There's a, there can be blockers and challenges. Sometimes you want to bring in that diversity and you do, but people don't really, I don't hear leaders talk enough about how hard it is to manage diversity. If you have lots of different people in your team, that takes so much work. You have to,
00:08:57
Speaker
as a team leader, adapt to the different people, and then try and get everyone singing the same song on the same hymn sheet. And so actually, if you've been burned as a team leader, even once, by hiring somebody who is a bit of a risk, for whatever reason, you just might be really put off. So I think there's lots of different things.
00:09:21
Speaker
i think can Yeah, can can not align basically when you're when you're trying to ah build up these perfectly balanced, diverse teams. Yeah, I mean, I think I have probably personally made like every single every single mistake on on the list. You know, I definitely have rushed tires to like fill a gap that I thought was urgent. I have definitely,
00:09:50
Speaker
through actually like truly not having a diverse team to have a diverse panel i have probably not had a very diverse panel and um yeah i mean i literally had to say to someone last week i did an interview i really liked this interview but i was like i like that i i said as my feedback to the person who was running the process i was like i like this person because she looks and sounds like me she would you know she I was like I felt like I was chatting to a version of me with like different qualifications and so my bias here which I'm declaring is like of course I felt and immediately comfortable with her because we're so so similar and um and therefore you know maybe that's a good thing but in all honesty
00:10:38
Speaker
probably not. um But I but I did really enjoy it. And it was a really good interview. And also it was like, you know, I tried to, I guess sort of declare my bias because I was like, it's not her fault that I liked her because she's similar to me. But it is just a sort of like,
00:10:54
Speaker
thing that we should be thinking about is this person immediately like within five minutes I was like okay this is my like bias alarm is like going because of course I'm gonna like this person this is a very familiar person to me um so yeah yeah I think we're all human aren't we but you've got to like be more aware of it um And I certainly see and and feel like, you know, lot a lot in in the areas I work in that the lack of diversity is is just a huge risk day to day because it's just sometimes you find that you self reinforce each other's ideas and um and that is not good. OK, so when you're trying to change a team composition, do you think bad apples or
00:11:46
Speaker
Like, I don't even know if that's a word. That's the term you'd use. don't know Do you think like people that stand out in a bad way should just instantly be removed from that team? Or are there other things that we could do with, with that sort of bad Apple? Yeah, it's a great question. I think, um, I think it depends. It depends to continue the metaphor. It depends on how bad Apple is. Are there, you know, are there behaviors that are damaging?
00:12:15
Speaker
to other people, you know, are people being impacted in a way that's probably just probably not what you want in your team or in your organization. and I sometimes, I was listening to a podcast the other day. She is in the background. She doesn't like a bad apple season. Fair enough. I agree with her. um I was listening to a podcast the other day and um It's these leaders have just started a private equity company and they were talking about the fact that they hire slowly and fire quickly, which I found really interesting. and yeah And sometimes there is there is power and there is there is there is an element of worth in being really clear about what your team culture is not.
00:13:12
Speaker
And if somebody kind of goes past those boundaries in quite a severe way, like I'm saying, super bad apple, yeah actually it sends a huge positive signal to say, this person, you know, it's not it's not right for us, but our culture.
00:13:29
Speaker
and However, majority of the time that won't happen. And it will be it'll be someone who's potentially pretty good at their job. and but house record yeah Disruptive loves everyone up the wrong way. like and you know Maybe microaggressions, you know ah but feel it feels like their intent is not terrible, all that kind of stuff. Or maybe those bad all those negative behaviors come out during a particularly stressful time. And so these are there's always an element of justification for some of that. So just to add like a bit of a bit of nuance, that's probably the type of person we're talking talking about. Yeah. And I think, yeah, they they don't I don't think they should be removed. I have a very long leash for this stuff. Now, what people don't talk about loads, I think, is how hard it is to manage poor performance. Let's say
00:14:25
Speaker
more behaviors. It is so draining for managers and team leaders to and that actually deal with this and keep going and sustain it and as well as doing their jobs. But i so I still think it should be done. I just think there should be like a fixed amount of time where you do try to give that person the feedback to watch them very closely as they put the feedback into, you know, actually, they they address it, and they put it into place in terms of in their working practices, and then get feedback from others. Yeah, like, is working? Is their behavior improving? um And so I would say that if you can help them adapt their behavior, if you can help them adapt their behavior, and change the impact that they're having,
00:15:14
Speaker
great and you know and obviously they need to be achieving some performance goals. Yeah they need to be lot they need to be doing outputs as well as this. Yeah otherwise it's not worth the stress but actually me I've seen you know I've seen people turn that kind of behaviour around but it is really hard work yeah it's hard work. I also have a fairly long leash for this I would say.
00:15:39
Speaker
um probably because I imagine that we're both quite empathetic people. um And often, often these behaviours are not driven by the workplace, right? There's often other things going on. And that can be so hard, as you say, for managers to disentangle. And I think that's a really ah but it's But it's so often true, Susan's agreeing. um But I think I have also been burned by having such a long leash. You know, I have also avoided really quite hard decisions for too long because
00:16:16
Speaker
because of like having high empathy. And um yeah, i think I think it's a balance, right? So I've sort of learned, I think, as I have got more experience to do exactly, I hope what you said, which is like cap the time. So it's like, I am going to invest in trying to change this person. I'm not just going to be like, oh, three strikes, you're totally out because that's not really who I am, but,
00:16:42
Speaker
I do think that it's so draining, as you said, it was such a good thing to call out so draining as a manager can be very draining for the team. So, you know, having a time box where you say eight weeks is the maximum. go And I think it also depends on like,
00:16:59
Speaker
how how good are they? How good is the output? But also how long have they been there? You know, is this, is this, are these behaviors arising super fast, in which cases like, oh, you know, this is probably like naturally how this person likes to work, or as you also raised, is this actually only coming out at a time of kind of intense pressure, intense stress, and they've actually, you know, had a long tenure of of being like,
00:17:25
Speaker
you know, ah a good performer for lack of like, I don't really like this bad and good term, but you know, we'll follow it. um So yeah, I think that's, that's really, um yeah, it's a really good summary of of things that I think you need to think about when there isn't that when there is someone who, who might be a bit of a bad apple.
00:17:43
Speaker
um Okay, so obviously diversity is really important and we've talked about that a bit. um But how do how in people and HR do you actually think about hiring for diversity?
Best Practices for Hiring Diverse Teams
00:17:56
Speaker
Do you put structure around it? What would you say are some best practice hiring techniques? Yeah, and we're really fortunate these days. There's a lot out there. If a business you know has some resource,
00:18:09
Speaker
um and has some money to spend. There are quite a few tools that have been developed to focus on this, but in general, a few techniques would be kind of and trying to bring in elements of name-lined recruitment and or you know where you don't you don't kind of see the civil services as really well. um You don't see who is putting in the application. You just get the application.
00:18:37
Speaker
and and and Yeah, it just, again, by us, it just takes quite little opportunities that we can have to say, oh, that person may be from an ethnic minority and or whatever it is, and or and that person may be very different and that's okay. ah So we're just trying to take out kind of they those details sometimes. Sometimes that's not possible, particularly in small organizations and in organizations where they may get referrals, for example, and then again, you're going to know exactly who you're talking about. And that might be part of the, that what makes hiring successful in that organization. That's, that's fine. But then you have to put some other kinds of things in place to, to have a look at, to just check, check biases where you can. So, you know, you said you were on a, on a panel, um, you know, don't never do hiring by yourself. Um, there should be a couple of stages at least right to give that person an opportunity to,
00:19:35
Speaker
you know, perform actually at at interview. um And you would hope that the people on the panel would come from slightly different and yeah schools of thought or different backgrounds, maybe different universities, a whatever whatever that is. What HR practitioners are talking about a lot is doing like task-based interview stages. So not relying on someone to just tell you.
00:20:02
Speaker
um good time how good they are. Some of us are really bad at it. I'm terrible at interviews. Good at coaching people in their interviews, quite annoying. yeah i say But yeah, it's so annoying, isn't it? um And so yeah, just if you give people a task to do, ideally, if you can pay them for that task, pay them for that time, that's really, really good practice. I agree. Just recognize that.
00:20:27
Speaker
you know, they are they are doing some work for you in a way. Especially on that. I think if you are doing if you are giving them work that is directly relevant to what you are doing now, that effectively they're like, oh, you're you're getting me to like design a screen for your current app. And they could just use it, right? Like I think in particular where it's where it's so current, it's like, you should be you should be paying people, especially if it's longer than like an hour.
00:20:58
Speaker
Yeah. And people have been really burnt by this. I was burnt by this. I spent three days on a task for a well-known tech someone. And I remember signing an MDA. That was fun. And spent three days on a brilliant piece of work. I was really proud of myself. I was like, this is actually decent, Lizzie. Well done. Yeah. Didn't get the job. Obviously, like no, no payment for it. And then, you know, that's it. But they've essentially got the free consulting. So that's really good.
00:21:27
Speaker
about exploiting people at a time when they're they're quite vulnerable, they're desperate to do this job, right? um And so for the task back to the task base thing, it's really good to just see what people can actually do. um And then hiring techniques as well, we do help kind of have to look out for AI, look out for responses that are coming through with chat GBT this these days. And and just rely on that because that's a challenge right now for us in HR, how do we kind of check there's still human ah contributions to what people are living in that initial yeah and that initial stage. um And then for something that we talk about a lot in my organization is just making sure that so the process is exactly the same for different people. And what why that's that's quite hard sometimes because you get to someone and you think, gosh, I just need an extra
00:22:21
Speaker
I need an extra half hour with them. I need to ask them this. But you are putting different people through different levels of test. And that is pretty poor practice. And giving some people more of a chance. Exactly. So yeah, it's just, those are a few things that kind of come to mind. Yeah, that last point is so interesting, right? Because you often, I think,
00:22:50
Speaker
in a good interview feel like you want more time. So like some, I would say sometimes in the best interviews, it's been like, you just enjoy it so much conversationally that you're like, oh, I could do with, you know, I'd love to keep chatting to them. That was so interesting. I learned something. But obviously, yeah, if they get double the interview time of everyone else, like that is so clearly like not a fair,
00:23:17
Speaker
process. yeah But I've never really thought about it like that. And I think that, I mean, yeah, I'm learning a lot, basically, Lizzie. As you say things, oh my well god, do how much of this do I actually do? Okay. um So if, if any of our listeners are like in an organisation,
00:23:40
Speaker
Um, and they want to hold them to account for best practice with diverse hiring and actually just hiring standards in general. Like what tips and tricks or what advice would you give to employees to try and help them hold their organization to account on this? Yeah, it's, it's super hard. I'm not going to, I'm not going to lie. it's It's hard, um, to hold leaders to account sometimes. Um, but I would just, um, encourage them that there, there is.
00:24:10
Speaker
It's never been easier, I think, to bring in a diverse range of talent, because for lots of different reasons, um but one of them is that if if an employee is part of a hiring process or knows, you know, there's a vacancy and there's one coming up, they could kind of, I'm just gonna be really practical, they could put in a chat with the hiring manager, with the person who's going through to bring in that person and and that that new hire yeah and ask them who they're reaching out to, where the advert is going in order to break in bring in that new person. So there are so, because of the internet and because of these groups, there are so many networks and groups of people. Yeah, that you could reach into the LGBTQ plus community, ethnic minority, ah professional ethnic minority groups
00:25:10
Speaker
Yeah. Um, like as in for each profession. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. professional in tech There's Asian professionals in, in, in, in different industries. There's, there are so easy for your industry to just go to those places and say, hi, this is the job we're advertising. We'd love to speak to anyone who's interested. Don't worry if isn' if you're if you're not quite sure about what we do come and have a chat, like we're here. And so.
00:25:38
Speaker
And all of those networks, you know, mum's net pet, like carers groups. Yeah, amazing. all ah All of those networks have job boards. Yeah. and And so it just takes, you know, the hiring manager at all, the HR team supporting them, you'd hope, um, to kind of do the work, like do the work up front and make sure that your, that ad is, is getting, is getting out there. I would ask them about how much they use CVs. This is a little controversial, but CVs,
00:26:07
Speaker
tend to help us increase our bias because we look for things we recognize in ah one interesting a or 2A4 kind of document. So the the shift away from CVs is something that lots of HR pratition practitioners are are encouraging going towards. you ask Ask the questions. Get them into interviews. Do the task. and like what how How are people kind of being set up to show what they can do rather than like kind of you know share that they were doing they were doing the right things or they were in the right institutions, like but that that kind of thing. So yeah, I would just almost get and anyone to go and speak to a hiring manager and ask like, what's your plan here yeah to bring in to bring in some diversity? And also remembering that not ah not so much of the diversity that we might be looking for is not visible.
00:27:02
Speaker
And so we have like neurodivergence now, we have so many other things that, and hidden dis disabilities and yeah and things like that. And so, you know, how have we, how are they planning to make it easier to do that? Or, or they can go chat to the HR and say, Hey, what's your, what's your, what's your hiring strategy? What's your talent acquisition strategy? Do you have any, again, controversial targets for diversity? Or do you kind of, are you thinking about it? and And what does it, what does it look like in our, in our company? Can I help?
00:27:31
Speaker
and yeah and actually hope is such a You know that's such a good way to approach it without it also feeling like accusative right because sometimes I
Addressing Diversity in Interviews
00:27:40
Speaker
think you don't know what hiring managers are doing and there will hopefully be at least some that are actually like doing the work for lack of a better term but I think can I help is a really nice way to say like I've got some ideas you know you might already be thinking about this but I would love to help because I care a lot about this that changes the nature of what could be, you know, quite a hard conversation. And I don't think it has to be. But I do think that I do think it's really good to raise it before really key hires or if you are worried that there isn't a process. um Okay, so one more question on diversity. And
00:28:24
Speaker
And I am like smiling just because this is just so relevant as I've already mentioned to me and to tech, but like, what do you think of organizations who say that they kind of hire on merit and they value diversity, but then they're all white and male?
00:28:46
Speaker
Silence. Silence. It's just such a spicy question. and Yeah, this does my head in. Me too. To be very honest, but I also having been in sometimes predominantly, I can't even like most of my career, predominantly white teens as a black female. yeah actually um um This is, I have seen, them I have seen both sides of it. I've seen when they're trying and failing yeah to
00:29:22
Speaker
to broaden the diversity of the team. I've seen it and I've seen when they talk about it and it's not. but so yeah Yeah, no actions behind it. So, yeah. I have to be diplomatic. It's really, it's really interesting because I am Yeah, I, for the first time in my like last round of interviews, I like asked about this in the interview um because I didn't see that that much diversity in the interview process. Actually kind of ethnic diversity was was much was much better in this particular instance, but um gender diversity and and I would just say kind of background diversity did did not feel. And I was really nervous and I waited until I had the offer to ask, which I'm not actually sure that I would recommend that. Like in some ways I thought,
00:30:24
Speaker
you know, be in a position of strength when you like challenge something that might yeah might be really yeah difficult. um In other ways, I thought, you know, it was such a big question for me so early on, that I was like, you should have you should have been asking everyone this, like actually, you know, to the point of like, you shouldn't have made it a big deal, you should have just asked everyone this. But yeah, I i found it,
00:30:52
Speaker
I found it incredibly nerve wracking actually to to try and address this. And I think it was because I didn't know what the answer I was looking for was because they could have said anything. They could have said, we've got loads of, you know, got loads of targets around this. This is how we try and start, you know, or they could have said,
00:31:17
Speaker
not you know they could have said whatever they wanted and i didn't know how it that it was true or how or how i would ever actually stress test it but um i think it's so hard because In organizations where I've seen that this is a problem, as you've just said, there are usually some people who are genuinely trying their best to change it, but then sometimes their best is just so shit. Do you know what I mean? It's like, sometimes it's like,
00:31:49
Speaker
you know, they're talking about it and they're like, we want this to be better, they want this to be better. And I think the worst one I've ever had was like, someone said to me, like, we want this to be better, you know, we really care about it, but I don't see gender.
00:32:01
Speaker
And I thought, okay, well, that's, and I said, you know, that's fucking insane. Like that is, that is completely insane. It's not possible. It's not, it's not possible, but also like, you can't correct, you can't correct it like that. That's like putting your hands over your eyes and saying like, but I don't hear, I don't hear the tone of people's voices. And I don't do, I just live in a genderless world. I was like, that's a fucking,
00:32:30
Speaker
fairyland like answer to this and that's like not you know good enough at all and we ended up having i would say a sort of very heated discussion around that but also i think that that person genuinely thought that that was a good answer to that question and that's when i was like fuck you know like i don't even i'm not even on the same page as these people so it is a really hard question to answer because i think what i think about it is what you something you said earlier, which is like, it has never been easier to hire a diverse team. There has never been more help, never been more people who are passionate about helping organizations with this. So I don't know, I just no longer think there's an excuse for like not being able to understand and not being able to do it. Yeah, I think, i'm yeah, listening to see you kind of share that, I think i'm I've landed in that same place that I no longer think
00:33:29
Speaker
There's an excuse. However, there are certain skillsets where we are struggling to get to see diversity in those industries. So everything you said is spot on and that person who doesn't see gender needs so much help. Life generally, um but we are struggling to see like people from ethnic minorities in like the STEM kind of. We are struggling with different things, but I think what your question, your point was so interesting. Ask about it.
00:33:59
Speaker
ask everyone in the interview process, I actually asked to speak to another, to speak to somebody in the organisation from an ethnic minority. I asked to interview them as part of my interview. Yeah, nice, nice. And actually that was really cool because I could, it it's tough, you know, they're obviously, their aim is to get me into the organisation if I'm the right candidate, their aim is to sell um where they're working.
00:34:29
Speaker
Um, but you can kind of get a sense of a feel of, um, yeah, of, of how an organization treats diversity from speaking to somebody who is not in the majority. And that was really, uh, useful. That, that conversation coming in as someone from an ethnic minority background, that conversation is what convinced me that, yeah, cool. I can work. Yeah. I don't work here. Um, I mean, there were so many other things I absolutely adored about.
00:34:57
Speaker
about the organization. So it wasn't too hard. But and if I, you know, these red flags that you might get because of the way people talk about diversity, or, or like you said, like you said, don't really have language, I don't really have, you know, the perspectives that you would hope they would have as in this is really important. This is what we're doing. And yeah, that can that can really help. I think in terms of what I'd say also is that organizations that hire on merit, but And they say they hire a merit, they say they hire diversity, but they're not, they're not able to, to get there. Like I'd love, I think you should always want to hear a bit of a plan. But, you know, and details yeah are important details and also is it hands-on enough? Not a, oh, you know, in that situation, I wouldn't be happy if they were just putting their adverts in.
00:35:51
Speaker
into the jobs board. Yeah, he exactly. but I don't, that's not the only thing I want to hear. If you have a problem, how are you solving your problem? Because that's, that will tell me how you solve all other problems. And it, and it wouldn't just be around diversity. There could be loads of things that come up in an organization, but how do they, how do they get this done? And something that I think I would love to hear from an organization that is battling with this is that they have identified the people in their organization who might be different in some way, it could all protect the characteristics, could be neurodivergence, could be diversity of thought, whatever, and they are mentoring them, or they are bringing them up. How are we going to retain them? How are we going to grow them? How are we going to develop them? If that doesn't exist, because that is another very easy thing to set up. If that doesn't exist, I'm kind of, I don't love the term reverse mentoring, but mentoring situation, then I just think to myself, like, well, come on,
00:36:50
Speaker
yeah yeah you know You're not even trying, I guess. Even if it's just one. Exactly. works exactly yeah Okay, right. Last few questions. A bit of a topic change around performance.
00:37:07
Speaker
So um what is your kind of ideal process and structure for performance management? um I don't know if that's a fair question, but yeah, I'm i'm curious. It is
Simplifying Performance Management
00:37:22
Speaker
totally fair question. um Yeah, um i think I think performance management has gotten like a really bad name and bad rep over the years and really I think it has to be kept really simple. Like, are you doing what you're paid to do is essentially what performance management is? Are you doing it? and And actually, ideally, you wouldn't just do it and get things done, you would grow and develop and maybe even enjoy what you're doing in the process, like keeping keeping it really, really simple. And then the third bit of that is, do you have everything you need to get to get that job done?
00:38:05
Speaker
and to grow at the same time. For me, that's kind of the, it can be kept really, really simple. And so and if you're putting in a, like a management system or there's a new one coming up and you ever get to kind of contribute to what that looks like, I think like um the processing structure should just be clear, easy, transparent, like what are those conversations being used? The outcome of those conversations, maybe your organization has has ratings or gradings of some sort, maybe they don't. What do those get used for? That has to be super, super clear to people. yeah and And the other thing I think is really important with this stuff is it's all about the conversation that you have with your manager. It's all about the actions you take off the back of that. and so
00:38:52
Speaker
Are those conversations happening regularly enough? um Yeah. Loads of organizations are moving away from just this one chat every year, big appraisals. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my God. Yeah. It's like, could you just have a chat every month? Or, you know, can you keep it light but frequent? I think it's super important. And the idea of that is just, you've got like a ah checkpoint where you can, you know, check in with the manager, highlight an issue and fix it because A, feedback that is given promptly, good or bad. Yeah. It's easier to take. Yeah. Easier to understand. Easier to remember what the heck they're talking about um and easier to like put in place. and And then, yeah, you can fix stuff much more, much more easily if you're told not kind of like, oh, last year you did this terrible thing. Yeah, yeah, 100%. I'm ridiculous.
00:39:44
Speaker
So that links I think nicely to the next question, which is in in your view, like what are the things we can do to like raise the bar of like line management and the quality of
Improving Line Management
00:39:55
Speaker
line management? Like what are your tips for organizations or people to make sure that the line management is good? Yeah, this is a really hard one. So there's there's there's a lot of data out there that says essentially that people don't leave organizations, they leave line managers.
00:40:16
Speaker
100%. That resonates with me so much. Yeah. Yeah, it's so real. And we tend to spend a lot of time with, with our managers, you know, how they just have the single biggest impact on our work. in In a lot of jobs, I will say that there's definitely some jobs where that might not be the case. and So yeah, the essentials. I don't, I don't know, I think I used to think being a manager is much easier yeah than It actually is. um And having been a manager a couple more times now than maybe like five years ago, I'm like, this is hard.
00:40:51
Speaker
and you there And it's not easy to be a good manager. it Being a nice person I have learned is not good at enough. It's not enough. are So yeah, I think, um, I think organizations need to kind of remind, remind people that management um is as important as the work you're doing. Like it is a job in itself. Don't think, oh, 90% of my job is blah, blah, blah, blah. And then I just got a team to manage. Yeah. Yeah. And then I'll manage the team. It's like, if if my opinion, you should even flip it. You should spend like 60% of your time thinking about who you manage and 40% of your time doing whatever you do yeah in in your time. That's, that's how I feel it should, it should be because of how serious, how serious it is.
00:41:42
Speaker
And then, and then yeah, I guess, like the best managers I've had in the past have really known, known me, known what I need, know my learning style, they've understood what I'm good at, they know what I'm bad at. And they can, they can help me with that. They know why I'm doing what I'm doing. Um, you know, they build me up, but they really can deliver feedback constructively. And I think as a manager, if you can't give constructive feedback in a helpful, effective way. Like that's something you should, you should spend some time on. hundred percent Yeah. That's what i I'd say. Like people people really need clarity. They need honesty, but they do need empathy. yeah But like above all, I think people just need consistency. for Yeah. A manager who's like.
00:42:26
Speaker
Consistency, I think is so, so true. Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree with what you've just said. For me, the ability to give feedback is like, you know, next to none and, and then consistency. I think like that is your job once you're managing a team. And I just don't, I don't think enough is talked about.
00:42:49
Speaker
actually how hard that can be but as you say for the manager. It's like being consistent every day. But also I think as you think about like leading teams, it is so hard to work for and be led by someone who is just in like all over the place, very up and down. It just, even if you don't intend it to, it creates a culture of like people feeling on edge. And that is just like, I think one of the worst environments in which to work.
00:43:16
Speaker
Okay, very, very last one, very last one. um
Balancing Performance and Culture
00:43:21
Speaker
Do you think there is higher tolerance for poor performance or bad behaviour, or no, sorry, bad behaviour if someone is a is a top performer? And what what do you think of that? Do you think that's right? Do you think there should be more leeway if someone is is like outputting amazing, amazing work? Yeah, I think i think it's really tough. aye and There is In my experience, not no ah huge amounts, but in my experience, there is always higher tolerance for bad behavior because companies have a goal, organizations have a goal, you know, and having someone who meets those. and Yeah, it's hard to say, it's hard to say no to that. I think what tends to happen is a leader of that, a leader of that organization
00:44:15
Speaker
where there is that person who's really flipping good at their job, but doesn't behave well, they probably don't have, you know, that much engagement or interaction with that person. So their behavior can probably be ended, to be honest, at a top level or at a high level. Why not? and It takes, I think, quite a strong manager to say, yeah, no, this isn't going to work. Do I think that should be the case? i No.
00:44:43
Speaker
But I'm in and i particularly when it's a smaller business and you are trying to make things work, I think i think it's really, really hard. And I emphasize to people who just think, okay, yeah, we will we will we'll keep this person on. I would say though, the risk risk is that you just essentially neglect everybody else. you know to keep this To keep this one great performer, like what What's the trade-off? Yeah, what's the trade-off, that's it. Yeah, so it is really hard. um And but I do think that's changing a little bit. I think back in the day, I think in previous days and years, you could probably get away with it much better. I think people in the world of work care more about behaviours and culture. And we talk way more about culture than we've ever done.
00:45:40
Speaker
a to give an example, like a very but top ah streaming company, you can probably guess, one of the ones I was talking about, have a culture deck. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I've seen it. Yeah. 125 size long. Yeah. Like, that's incredible that a company that's out of that size and would think about putting together what culture means now. So I actually think It is really important to to balance those things out and we do that more than we used to. But yeah, I think, what do what do you think? That's a good question. Yeah, i think I think you're right. In small organisations in particular, this can be really hard because everyone has such a big weight to pull.
00:46:21
Speaker
And I have definitely been in a situation where I haven't felt that I was able to pull out someone because they just, they just could produce. However, it's probably a bit short termist. I think there are maybe be ways that you can put people into kind of individual contributor roles where like they don't have as big an impact. But again, that probably isn't true in a small organization.
00:46:46
Speaker
So, yeah, I would agree with most of the things you've said. um And I think honestly, it's very hard to answer this question at a generic level because it will be very case by case. um Right. It's been so amazing. Thank you so much for your time and your expertise and your thoughtful answers. We really, really appreciate it. And, you know, have a lovely, lovely day. Thank you so much. is
00:47:18
Speaker
Thank you so much for making it to the end of the podcast. If you've made it this long, it means hopefully that you loved it. um If you did love it, please give us some stars wherever you found us and a little follow so that that helps other people find us too.