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Undertone (2026) & In the Loop (2009)
20 Plays2 hours ago
Doug and Tony do a little impromptu Undertone and Super Mario Galaxy talk before getting to the main event: Armando Iannucci's 2009 satire, In the Loop. They discuss their relationship to Iannucci's work, how well the film holds up and if maybe all other countries should have nukes to deter the U.S. from invading them
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Transcript
Humorous Car Scenario and Mario Movie Release
00:00:00
Speaker
You borrow my car, and then you give it the test. What, the Mario test? Mario. Mario's fucking psycho. You just reintroduced what we're talking about there.
00:00:21
Speaker
make sure it's established yeah so mario movie premiering this i guess not even this weekend it just started during the week and i forgot i was like why are they doing that they're so special they're mario it's because it's a holiday i keep forgetting easter is like a holiday like yeah yeah completely forgot it was easter this like coming weekend it was one of those things where i'm like oh yeah that's right that's why that family dinner was booked at day yeah you know rather than any kind of excitement for uh oh it's time to eat chocolate you know and mario as we all know is christian uh you know of course chris pratt and then came back after three lives yeah he had the one up uh so that's that's that's all part of it it's part of the lore We were talking about Glenn Powell and that he's going to be in the Mario movie and how even that doesn't get because I love
Nostalgia for Star Fox and Video Game Adaptations
00:01:12
Speaker
Star Fox. Like, I wish they still made those games. Like, i mean, the original game is, you know, could just replay N64. Star Fox is infinitely replayable. I'm also I'm also a defender of Dinosaur Planet on GameCube. It's called by its right name.
00:01:28
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. What's its actual name? du that Star Fox Dinosaur Adventures or something? I think it's called Star Fox Adventures, like something as simple as that. But Dino Planet, I think, was the original name or something because it was not supposed to be a Star Fox. They just added Star Fox into it yeah Yeah. But it works like like I feel like because well one, it's a rare game. So they're good at doing adventure games. And then like, yeah, i don't know. It's a cool setting. So like, I don't mind that like, oh, it's not. i mean, there are a couple of Arwing segments like in like the final boss battle. You kind of get the there's like some callbacks to like the actual games. But you can just play those games. Like I wasn't upset where people like this isn't my Star Fox. How dare they put him on a dinosaur planet.
00:02:13
Speaker
Like, i agree with you that those early, you know, like even the SNES game, if you play that right now, it's fantastic. Right. And and the 64 games, great, too. But like with that Star Fox Adventures, when I was growing up as a kid, I played I made the mistake and I played Super Smash Bros. Melee first.
00:02:30
Speaker
So like I was expecting, you know, like always going to be like running around and shooting people with a gun, you know, and kicking people. They should have they should have given you a gun eventually, you know, like like. yeah He loses his stuff when he crashes on the planet and then you get so some kind of projectile. I mean, rare game. You've got him running around with a bo staff, you know, solving puzzles. Right. yeah That's a far cry from what you expect from that character. I'm not saying that that was a bad thing because ultimately I got over myself and I enjoyed the good game. Right. Yeah. But if let's say you were looking for like the Star Fox game on GameCube, I actually think assault is really underrated. I think that that's like maybe a better game in terms of like what you would want from that franchise. I remember being adventures is really being pretty decent. And did that combine? If I remember, like it had on foot shooting and then also on foot, it had tanks and it had airplanes.
00:03:24
Speaker
Yeah, that's cool. it was a really good game. It was a third person shooter. And then they never made another Star Trek. Unless you had a 3DS, but who owned one of those? i mean, I did, but like, yeah, I i don't. We found them.
00:03:41
Speaker
And I can't even see 3D pop. you I have like a fucking, I almost call it a stigmata. ah But no, yeah one of my eyes is stronger than the other. So it through stereoscopic vision is like less impressive to me. I mean, images should already have some kind of depth, you know, like that's the thing with 3D movies. you're like, whoa, I'm like, okay, well, if the image is composed and blocked well, like I should be getting the death sense of depth anyway from from it, even if it's like two d I think on Mike, this is the first time we're revealing. But I think that you and I share the same eye problem where my one of my eyes is better than the other. So like just throwing it out there, you know, I have the same issue with 3D, but usually I can throw the 3D glasses over top of my glasses and seek some kind of effect. Right. Yeah, it's subtle, ah but I just imagine it's way more impressive for other people where they're just like, I'm on Pandora. And then for me, I'm like, yeah, I'm watching a really well rendered video game. like That's what that looks like to me.
00:04:40
Speaker
3D and platforms like VR, you know, like I feel like those are better because of how close the sensor is to your eye and how it can cheat those effects. But when it comes to watching something in ah cinema, right, where, you know, people are being shuffled in and out every two hours, there's not much time and consideration and the glasses come in a bag. It's just a cheaper experience. And therefore, I get a cheaper, you know, engagement with the 3D, I find. When it's something that's on a higher quality, if I'm at a theme park, let's say, and there's a 3D thing, find it's more effective, right? But going to the movies, it's ah a very
Critique of Mario Movie and Video Game Adaptations
00:05:16
Speaker
ah minor thing. We should get back to the Mario movie, right? Because when it comes to what's what's what's happening, right? See it before the critics tell you you can't have fun.
00:05:29
Speaker
For Film Twitter tells you not. Yeah. they put out the fire flower or whatever, right? Like some kind of thing. And they're already preemptively getting defensive of ah of, movies that don't exist or aren't out yet. They're like, well, maybe they'll be kinder to the Zelda movie. And I'm like, ah I don't, maybe we won't. make I mean, I'm i'm not a critic, but I'm saying like, maybe maybe I'm not going to go easier on Zelda.
00:05:53
Speaker
I'm not going to go easy on any of these movies and I'll give you go even a step further. I'm not watching these Mario movies because they're made by Illumination, right? They're children's movies. I don't have kids. have no business. I have business watching these movies.
00:06:07
Speaker
I I've maybe walked past in a room when a Minions movie is on and they say like banana or something. And I'm like, OK, yeah, I get it. It's fine. right Enjoy it.
00:06:20
Speaker
I've seen the first couple of Despicable movie mo Me movies and they're fine. You know, like they're passable children's entertainment, but also like. when you compare illumination to like Pixar or when you compare it DreamWorks. Yeah, especially like Pixar, because you can make kids movies that are like, like actually like, you know, they get gray on the curve. You're like, yeah, it's fine for a kids movie. But like, I, if that's what the case, then I, I don't have to see because don't have kids. So I would rather see like an actual movie.
00:06:49
Speaker
there There was ah I was on Twitter the other day and shocking I know. And I saw that there was a post that somebody was like appreciating a moment from the Mario movie and they were just like, oh, I always found this so emotional. And it's it was like an eight second clip of just like Mario and Luigi embracing after a big fight where they're just like, oh, you made it and they like hug. And I was just like, this would be like eight seconds thrown away in anything. you know There's nothing special about this moment. It's not like it's done in a way that's particularly amazing. It just feels as if they put the person who is watching it put a lot of their own stuff into the sequence and just imagined the more...
00:07:33
Speaker
a better told moment. Um, and it was really bizarre to see because it's the situation where a lot of these people are operating off of nostalgia or off of like needing this to work. It's very similar to what happened when superhero movies started, right? When, yeah you know, Marvel started making these and people were like, well, if they just do it this way, then maybe we'll get superhero movies all the time. That was a conversation at one point. And I feel like people are doing that again with, uh,
00:08:01
Speaker
uh video game movies partially because the superhero superhero craze did happen and then also because there's a lot of people who have attachment to video game nostalgia and they feel as though seeing that represented in film is somehow going to like solidify it and make it like important uh personally you know i see it as just another ip that hollywood is going to mine oh it's very cynical because that's what the that's what the studios want Like they're just doing the work of the studios of like, we want to and mobilize that fandom and have you. Cause like the thing of with like, once the MCU took off, it had this reputation of it was doing it right. And for some reason that was, it had the perception of like, yeah, because they're like being respectful to the source material and stuff. And that's why they're getting it right. When it's like one, they're not really, they're like kind of ashamed to be comic book movies more so than Some like, you know, people derive Nolan's Batman trilogy. ah so There's some really goofy shit in those movies. Like it's just through the prism of, you know, Nolan's sensibility. So he like needs to justify certain things or like ground quote, quote, ground them. But like you still have fucking the League of Assassin. I mean, they call them the League of Shadows, but it's like there's a ninja clan and like they would yeah are going to spread fear toxin in the city. Like that's very goofy.
00:09:22
Speaker
They're going to do 9-11-2. Yeah. why What are we doing here? Would be you
00:09:33
Speaker
I just like i said that and I birthed a new conspiracy theory. I just felt that in my soul. But um the um this whole, ah you know, idea of, oh, it's like people will defend it and they'll be like, oh, it's not for kids. You know, like this is serious. I grew up with this, so it's important to me. But then you you hear i haven't seen the movies again, so I'm just going off of what I've heard. you hear that like they didn't even use the score from the movie the games. They're just using like parts of it. And then the rest are pop songs. I'm like that to me speaks to some level of self-consciousness and not like really feeling a love for the source material
Music and Cultural Impact in Mario Movie
00:10:11
Speaker
but because the music with that Mario music is fantastic. It's like kind of I'm inflating the percentage, but it's like 80% of the appeal. i mean, the gameplay is actually good in the game, but like, but the but the music without that music, that's like the icon, a big part of the iconography.
00:10:29
Speaker
There are people who don't play those games, people who have played those games like maybe once when they were younger and they know the music. Right. It's the same as like, you know, some people, they they don't play video games, but they know what a Pikachu is.
00:10:42
Speaker
Right. Like it's like a lot of these things come through cultural esmosis. And one of the things that Mario is known for is its music. Right. So you would think that they would probably lean on that a bit more. I think it always comes down to this thing where it's like, what's the way to adapt a video game? And I've said this before, but I'll say it again. It's about not so much capturing, you know, the thing exactly as it is, like the Silent Hill films that keep on getting meek passes because the people like Silent Hill to to so much that they'll accept the movies.
00:11:12
Speaker
um But but instead, it's something like, you know, ah people who are just accepting that it's there because they see that there is the promise of something better down the road, assuming that somebody with better instincts is given the controls. Yeah, if if if we just if we just stay the course, it'll pay off. Like, we'll get the Smash Brothers movie, which they obviously do want to do like because there's money there.
00:11:35
Speaker
And it's like, why should I trust that the Smash Brothers movie won't just be a kid's film? Right. It won't be because all the movies leading up to it were kids films. So like like I have and not even I'm fine with the kids geared like fantasy film in terms of like, you know, Zelda, for example, ah you know, because the games themselves aren't, you know, they're they're kid accessible, kid friendly like us. But but I don't think correction. Correction, Doug. What what is Smash Brothers Melee is rating on the SRT?
00:12:05
Speaker
T for te I rest my case. The movie's got to be PG-13. but But for Zelda, like, I don't even think it's going to be as good as and whatever that director's name, I'm forgetting. He did, I never saw the Maze Runner movies. Like, a ah Kingdom of the Planet of Apes was like, kind of had a Zelda-y feeling. And I did like that epic, like, nature of it. But like, I don't think this is going to be like this generation's like Dark Crystal or any, like, I don't think, I think it's just going to IP cash grab. Like, I have no reason to think otherwise. Yeah.
00:12:39
Speaker
we just watched the Pendragon cycle, right? We've all, we know what happened with the spinoff series for Lord of the Rings. The only kind of fantasy that's working right now is anything with game of Thrones name attached to it because there's a baked in love for it. And at least there's an edge there. I think that fantasy in terms of traditional fantasy, which Zelda the very much so is, I feel like there's not a lot of demand for that. And I'm not saying that in a cynical sense where it's like, Oh, audiences will just reject Zelda. I think that any, uh,
00:13:09
Speaker
success that Zelda gets will be similar to the Minecraft movie, where it's just like, you know, a league of guys who wore bright green shirts with the Triforce and the cargo shorts, you know, like they're going to show up in those theaters, right? And that movie is going to make hundreds of millions of dollars. Yeah, absolutely. And it'll be it'll be similar to the Minecraft movie where it's like it doesn't need to be good. They just need to, you know, see a chicken jockey. Right. And that's enough for them. And so like all of the discourse around like, oh, maybe in this particular way, this is how she could still win kind of conversations. People have these, you know, moments where they convince themselves that a real artist is working somewhere and they just aren't because the way that these things are constructed are like a you know, products. And the only way that we're going to get any interesting video game movies is if somebody grabs an IP, snatches it and runs away and does their own thing with it.
00:14:04
Speaker
Which they're not going to be allowed to do with anything Nintendo because Nintendo is already made it clear that, I mean, and they're just, just what they're known for. Like they're, they're like more litigious than Disney in terms of like how protective of their shit they are. So like, Yeah, they're they're not going to let the 90s Mario Brothers movie happen again, which is a shame because that's the... but Honestly, maybe I'll call it right here. Well, at some point in the near future, we should do an episode. Maybe get Elvis on for that because he has like a box set. He's a big fan of that movie. So...
00:14:38
Speaker
We just need Elvis on in general. We are always on his pod. He's got to come on here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that'd be fun. And that's the Mario movie. I'd rather rewatch that and talk about that movie because that's like a gonzo vision, you know? Like, it it's ah it's it has idea. I mean, it's fucking insane. with Like, ah Big Bertha is a big black woman who grinds on Mario in a club and they're all wearing like, like kind of like spiked fetish gear and shit. The sets are designed by the person who did like the Blade Runner production design, I believe. Yeah, like it's crazy.
00:15:14
Speaker
It's definitely like I haven't seen it in years. I've probably haven't seen in 10 years, 15 years. ah But it is an absolute like wonder of a film like that. It's even exists. And also, I'm just a big Bob Hoskins ah and John Leguizamo fan. And of course, Dennis Hopper. I was gonna say Cooper himself.
00:15:33
Speaker
Come on. Come on. i I love him. I love me some Hopper. But the but the Hopper, never mind. I was going to like you know make a joke about you know putting something on the Hopper, you know but I was like, it's lame. It's hack. Why would I or even attempt to make that joke? It's so silly beneath me even to make that kind joke. but Sorry, let's pretend it never happened.
00:15:53
Speaker
It'd be like going to see Super Mario Galaxy. So beneath you, yes it beneath me. Exactly. You know, what's been funny about this whole ah Mario thing has been like this, ah like there's been these gamers who have been like, you know, Brie Larson's changed and she knows now how to like talk about like, you know, good in press conferences and stuff. because Because she says things that are, like, not offensive to their egos and instead of, like, she was not even confrontational during the Captain Marvel press tour. She just pointed out, i was like, hey, there's, like, not a lot of female critics of a true thing and that that kind of, like, hey, does does that maybe skew how some of these things are received? And I'm like, oh, yeah, fair point. I mean, I don't think that improved. I mean, Captain Marvel's not a great movie either way, but, like, I think the... Regardless of when she's making that point, it's a valid point.
00:16:48
Speaker
but Look, like you Brie Larson was like a situation where she was trying to be as progressive as possible within the machinery of a studio blockbuster. And ultimately, she kind of came across as very like white feminist, you know, and had a lot of like embarrassing clips. Right. And there and the only reason that they were as embarrassing as they were was because you had a lot of like really annoying neck bearded guys just like obsessing over them over and over again. Right. So it it came to the point where she didn't she wasn't just herself. She was like a figure that these people could talk about. Right. And the only reason that they changed their tune, like like you're saying, is that, you know, she's separating the political talk from what she's doing, mainly because what she's making is just a product. Right. right if rosalina was a three-dimensional character that was given and more to do maybe she would be having more to say about that she should say fuck guys hey if if like there was some period in the film right where like mario's trapped in an ice thing right and then she said fuck guys you know i halfway imagine those people who post those eight second clips of mario and luigi hugging taking it that that exact same way
00:18:01
Speaker
I mean, yeah, that's what that would
Comparison of Films: Elvira vs. Pee Wee
00:18:04
Speaker
mean. And that would mean Mario had gone woke. So now was representative of my pollut beliefs. If Mario looks at the camera and tells me he's the exact kind of communist I am, then it's a good movie.
00:18:18
Speaker
I hope that Mario is exactly the same kind of communist that I am, which is Bullworth.
00:18:25
Speaker
Hell yeah. Mario just starts rapping, you know. there And ah another better Mario adaptation, the Super Mario Brothers Super Show um from from the eighty s you had Captain fucking Captain Lou Albano. is is the There was like live action sketches and then animation. Like that was something for, you know, it was it's for kids. But yeah I feel like that was pretty, I mean, it had to do the Mario, you know. Yeah.
00:18:51
Speaker
that's where a show that was famous for always having guest stars on too like i think like macho man randy savage was on one of those elvira i think came on at one point which i'm like that's the queen i'm like i maybe saw her for the because i didn't see that her movie as a kid so like i was like is that my first exposure to elvira
00:19:14
Speaker
Elvira first contact. um Have you seen Elvira mistress of the dark? Like, i believe that's what it's called. I've only seen clips. duh.
00:19:25
Speaker
I should be around Halloween time. like but That's an amazing movie. i feel like I will go on record and say this. like It's a better movie than Pee Wee Herman's Big Adventure. Oh, and see, i love Pee Wee. I think that movie's a little overhyped.
00:19:42
Speaker
ah like Like, it's good. it's good i'm not done i'm I'm not diminishing it, but it's... There's... Yeah, I don't know. it There's something about maybe just... did it uh there's other burdens that really just like stuck harder for me and like that the peewee one where i was like oh that's cute but then you know i'm much more attached to like the show and then just peewee as an icon himself than like that movie The Pee Wee movie has a lot of great bits, right? I don't care about it emotionally at all. Right. But as just like a slapstick, you know, like look at him, Paul Reubens, it's like a modern comedic figure. You know, I was like, yeah, that's a great thing to enjoy. But I'm never going to say that like it's on the same level as like, you know, Buster Keaton or, you know, what have you. And it sounds ridiculous for me to compare him to one of those greats. But it's like, you know, with some small adjustments, it very well could have been. Right. With Elvira, it's a very similar kind of structure where it's like, you know, oddball fish out of water in these different kind of scenarios. But it's a little more contained because it's set in one town, you know. And it's a lot of like upsetting, like conservative norms within like 80s and 90s culture. Just a great time. Just a lot of fun. like that. And a lot of the movie is playing off of Elvira's strengths.
00:21:04
Speaker
Cool. Yeah. Yeah, I definitely need to check that out. was going say something else about Pee Wee. ever see Pee Wee's Big Holiday, that Netflix movie that they did like 10 years ago or something?
00:21:17
Speaker
I never did watch that, mainly because I saw Wee's Big Top, like the second movie that they did in that series. And that I was like... Okay, that's too much. I'm not going to watch. I feel like this, i don't remember much of Big Top other than I was kind of similarly like, yeah, this isn't really doing anything ah for me. But I, from my recollection, but Big Holiday, at least at the very least, I was charmed by the, it's like not even really subtext. like the It's like about Pee Wee falling in love with... ah
00:21:48
Speaker
ah joe manganello who's playing himself and then he goes he it's another road trip movie but he's like going to find joe manganello because they have this chance encounter and then he's just like so enamored with joe manganello so i was like oh this is just about how peewee is in love with this man and so i kind of like that Hey, like like and here we thought that he would be hit with Dottie all this time, you know, and that alone gives me a bit of hope that it's a more interesting film, you know, but I also understand that it probably will have that like clean sheen that happens when you get these legacy sequels. Plus, and and on Netflix, yeah, and on Netflix. And there's probably a ton of celebrity cameos, right? So it will feel like there's like, oh, here's this guy for this afternoon we got.
00:22:38
Speaker
Right. Yeah, that's I guess that i I don't remember all the cameos other than Joe, like Joe Manchin, like making him like the centerpiece. And then I feel like a lot of it's just like character actors. Right.
00:22:53
Speaker
Oh, OK. I would have assumed that um that movie would have had like, you know, people who love Pee Wee when they were growing up. Well, yeah, because because he's he's huge. Like, I'm I'm just looking through the the credits here. The biggest name I'm seeing is. ah Like.
00:23:12
Speaker
Who would even be the David Arquette, I guess. Oh, wow. Huge. That's a get David Arquette is what we call him.
00:23:21
Speaker
And that guy doesn't just pick up the phone for anything. So, you know, nope the fact that they got him. Hey, not you not even a screen movie. Nope.
00:23:33
Speaker
God, fuck, fuck seven and everyone involved. I don't think I've ever said that on this feed, but we talked about on Elvis's show. the the Fuck that movie. We boycotted it on this feed. Yeah. Fuck, fuck everyone involved with that bullshit.
00:23:47
Speaker
Yeah. I just love how like the studio has failed to announce the next screen movie every week. You know, like I feel like there's always like a we're doing something with it. And I'm just like, I'm sure you are like, I'm sure I'm sure in three years we'll talk about this again. It's like Neve Campbell's like, I have some plans for what could be next in Sydney's journey. I'm like, oh, is it going to mass killer chases her and her daughter around? Yeah.
00:24:15
Speaker
uh i and i feel like they couldn't even like did they confirm that williamson is not returning for did at least as director like like maybe he might have story involvement but the fact that that's because he clearly was mean he was just the guy who was there you know like you're just like fucker lost two directors uh you who yeah You've been here since the beginning. No one will give you a that much heat because you're here the whole time. You know, yeah, that that was what ended up happening. um But definitely he probably saw the writing on the wall was just like, I don't want to be associated with another one of these. I would love it if because it's all about Neve Campbell now. Right. And like what makes her happy. I would love it if she took like the Adam Sandler route where every screen movie was just an excuse for her to pay off a vacation.
00:25:03
Speaker
oh like that would be interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. like like on a cruise Let's take Ghostface out on the road. That that that would at least yeah ironically be like more creatively juicy than anything that they've done in terms of like shaking up the setting. I was gonna say I hope it becomes like her Fast and Furious, you know, like vin Diesel, like she's the Vin Diesel.
00:25:27
Speaker
Well, that would imply that like all of the people who've been killed would have to come back. Right. And like they would have to like, you know, invent reasons where they're just like dismissed by heart. You know, i i feel like the deep fake stuff was almost testing the waters because they've even said like, we haven't ruled out Stu could still be alive. I'm like, why?
00:25:48
Speaker
I do think that that that book was closed. I'm like, do people want that? But no, you go online. Yes, there are people who are like, oh, and and this is why Stu coming back would be so good and bring the story full circle. I'm like, no.
00:26:04
Speaker
i would like it if like they brought him back, but like there's like a doctor sequence, right? And like the person is looking through their notes and ah they tell them they're just like, well, you know, we brought him back, but Now he's disco Stu from The Simpsons. You know, there's nothing we could do.
00:26:21
Speaker
Or you have the whole movie be where it's like, no, Stu's alive, but he's reformed now. It's the Joker in Dark Knight Returns where you're like, he's he's good now. Look. And then it's just Sidney acting crazy like, oh, he's going to do something.
00:26:35
Speaker
and Amazing. Yes. See, now this is why we should be in charge of the Scream franchise. um But, you know, if if we were, you know, hypothetically speaking, Melissa Pereira, come back, you know, je th come back, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Doors open. lay for hands clean of this. You know, we we don't care. You know, come on. Let's let's finish up the trilogy. You know, and Sydney's daughter dies and of in the first five minutes. She just gets hit by a car. It's not even Ghostface related.
00:27:08
Speaker
Both Sydney and her daughter are in a car and it flies off a cliff into a trash compactor and we just watch it mulch their car. Right. And then like we just sit on it like for a really uncomfortable period in time. Yeah. Like like three minutes. Right. And then we cut to the next scene and the movie continues like any other screen film. Like Red Right Hand plays. And then, yeah, Sam Carpenter should enter Sam Carpenter like, oh we're back.
00:27:37
Speaker
We're back from our vacation. Never happened. You know?
00:27:44
Speaker
Oh, uh, is there anything else we want talk about before we get into the movie itself? Was there anything announced? I mean, it's like April Fool's day, so I'm not taking anything I see announced seriously, but was there like any like actual film news?
00:28:01
Speaker
I'm just not taking any like massive Julia Dacronow slander seriously today. um i'm not taking any you know announcements from tech companies seriously today. It's about avoiding jokes and and and cruel humor, you know, so nothing really for me.
00:28:18
Speaker
Right. Yeah. ah I should. Alpha is playing relatively close to me. i should go see at theaters ah yeah around. round It took a while to get out this way. So like it's it is definitely winding down. Like, I don't know if if I even have to the end of this week. So I might need to go tomorrow.
00:28:42
Speaker
I feel like Toronto got it much earlier, but I never made a priority to go see it. Unfortunately, I was just going to watch it at home. And like, I'm probably going watch it like soon. I just like I didn't need a priority because I still have a lot of movies to catch up on. And also I'm just like, i don't want to watch a lot of modern movies. So right now I want to go back to the past. I want to watch some like, you know, things from the fucking mid 20th century right now. I'm in that vibe right now. I feel you. And there just wasn't a ton to like,
00:29:13
Speaker
really pulled me to I mean you know I had like life stuff going on and didn't just just didn't feel like going to the theaters and then finally I went for the first time in forever probably since Nirvana the band the show the movie and then I saw fucking Undertow and I'm like oh if this is the best they got theaters then don't know man uh poopy movie that was you know some of like even if i divorce myself from the expect you know like i try to avoid like hype and expectations for stuff and even seeing people hype it up i was like okay that just just go in ah you know take it as its own thing even as its own thing it's pretty underwhelming but it's funny the way people were hyping it because some people were like you know this is kind of got some skin marine in it and then if You have that in your head at all while watching Undertow. It makes the movie comical because like, it'd be like if Dirk Skidamarink needed to be like, boom, boom, boom, you know, to have like a scary score like, Skidamarink is, is scary because of how sparse it is. You know, like it's just like, yeah. it's making you lean in and like peer at every little and listen for like, I saw that in a theater by myself. And so like I, and every little Creek and like sound, I was like, I thought I was hearing shit in the theater behind me. And I was like, looking around, like I was, I had, I got skin of my rinked, uh, during under, during undertone. ah I mean, it's like,
00:30:41
Speaker
We're listening to 10 mysterious audio recordings from an anonymous email. Are you implying there's hidden messages in it? Let me play it back. In reverse.
00:30:54
Speaker
Play the next one. Let's find out.
00:31:20
Speaker
Spoilers for undertone, guess. We'll just do it. Yeah. I mean, did you know if you listen to Twinkle Twinkle Little Star backwards, it's actually about raping babies?
00:31:35
Speaker
It is what what a like a lot of the movie is just like, here are these nursery rhymes that we're making creepy because we put them backwards. It's like baby's first horror movie. Yeah. And they go off of that like skidmering comparison that you brought up.
00:31:51
Speaker
the problem with the movie is that skidmerink is abstract. You know, you you barely see any people in the movie, right? Right. It's just like images. It's, you know, or shapes in the darkness. And with, uh,
00:32:06
Speaker
this movie it's like, Oh, there's a person talking. We're just going to put the camera on them talking and we're just going to leave it there. Right. It's like, if, if the point of this is that it's audio driven, right. That means that the camera should be free to go wherever it wants to go. Right. That means that like, we should be letting the audio really seep into the dread of these moments. And if you're going to choose to just like have it on her face or whatever, then like have her, have more interesting like shit to overcome than just like additional like my mother's dying in the other room. i feel like we've seen a million times. Well, and and oh the payoff of it is no. Now she's she's scary. and
00:32:46
Speaker
now I have to like it. It's like a poor man's version of a lot of other things, like like a better recent horror movie that's about like ailing for like or caring for an ailing like you know elderly ah parent, like Relic, I thought handled that like with a lot more heart and like ah in a more interesting way.
00:33:06
Speaker
ah But this was just like hitting all those familiar beats. And like you said, like Why is the camera on her? Because there's times where I thought we were going to like the camp. There's our shots were like kind of like drift from upstairs or like go upstairs and like turn around. But like to for no point. So but I was like, why aren't we doing crazy movements while we're listening to the audio? Instead of just like they're they're trying to do like the negative space thing where like, well, that corner to the side where she's listening, is there something back there?
00:33:39
Speaker
Is there? And I'm, you know, a good movie like Skinner Inc makes you lean in. You're like, what am I looking at? And then it's usually it's just it's just a binary of no, there isn't anything there. or Like, yeah, I can see there's like it's like her mom back there. Like it's like that.
00:33:55
Speaker
It's it's not like something that's making me use my imagination. I know it's easy for people to dunk on a movie like Hereditary these days, largely because it's one that's been overly saturated in like horror discussions. But what that film got in terms of just a scenario and how to play out a scary sequence was that it wouldn't have you lean in before it had something in the background move, right? Like you wouldn't expect that to happen and then it would. And that scared you deeply, right? In this film, it's always showing you that framing to you know infer.
00:34:30
Speaker
that there's going to be some kind of scare that comes around the corner, but it only ever happens like twice. So like, you know, all of the other times that it does do it, it does feel cheap. And speaking of cheap, like there are two instances where they use like loud audio as a jump scare, which I thought was off limits, you know, like. Because like I just assumed it was going to be a much more cerebral, smarter again. Maybe that's me like hearing the hype. And then, yeah, it's someone fucking says, it's like, oh, so this is going to be like kind of kind of thoughtful or something. But then even taking the movie on its own terms, I'm like, this is like the dumbest, clunkiest way you could do this, because I can't even enjoy that. Like you start to maybe generate some kind of atmosphere as you barrel towards the end. But the movie always undercuts itself in that regard, because It doesn't trust the audience to like just buy into like what it's selling. So it needs to like either have like those loud bangs or then it's doing like a spooky movie score. And I'm just like, shut up. Let me hear the silence. Like there's literally the the tagline for their podcast. I feel like it's like, don't fear the shadows, fear the silence. I'm like, OK, so let me fear the fucking silence. Shut up.
00:35:44
Speaker
and And then also all the creepy so segments from their audio clips that they're finding. um Like on that note, the silence is never the scary moment. It's always like somebody whispering something and reversing it. And it turns out they're saying the devil, ah you know, like things like that. And they were using like a weird voice while they were muttering something. It's like, oh, yeah.
00:36:06
Speaker
Yeah. Like, ah I think that if you're going to have a podcast show, if you're going to have something where it's just these people watching these things, why aren't they also watching video clips? Why aren't they watching, you know, like more than just audio clips that again, ah put the pressure on the performers who the camera's just sitting on the entire time. The camera doesn't even need to be in that physical space where you could just show us like their mind's eye as like, what are they seeing while they hear this? Yeah.
00:36:34
Speaker
Like you can get up, get abstract with it, like like because that's literally like you could do anything. Skin of a ring probably cost less than undertone, right? Like i would assume you act on that. But let's find that out right now. Actually, what was the budget on undertone?
00:36:52
Speaker
I just want to know. ah Five hundred thousand dollars. Is that the case? Yes. $500,000. That's what Google is saying. So, and how much of that went to that AI image of the lady? Now, now for for perspective, Skinnamarink was $15,000. Yeah,
00:37:13
Speaker
Yeah, come on. and And the reason I'm bringing that up, not because, you know, you know, less budget in the movies, better is necessarily end all be all. What I am saying, though, is that, like, if your goal is audio driven terror, right. You could really lean on just the audio because that's what Skidamaring did. You didn't have a lot of imagery in that film. You just had carefully designed imagery, right? And what happened in Undertone is there was some carefully designed imagery, but it was saved for the last act. And the carefully designed imagery was like played out in a one-er.
00:37:50
Speaker
You know, it was unceremonious. it's It's just like child's drawings of the demon. And then, yeah, all that was super under what was like, oh, it's a demon that eats babies or it's jealous of ah with mothers or something. i don't know. I, I like literally was tuning out because I was like, this is this is really boring. Yeah.
00:38:14
Speaker
It really goes to show that if like you're constructing a film and there's this question of whether or not, you know, you need to focus on, you know, commercial viability, right. Or like, you know, ah targeting the right audience, all that stuff doesn't really matter as long as your consistency in presentation is applies, applied to the story in an appropriate manner, right? Like skidmer rank works because it was conceived that way and then executed that way. Right. Undertone was conceived because somebody was like, we should do an audio based horror film based around podcasts. And then just kind of like, yes, they ended each other in a meeting until they were like, okay, we've got a horror movie. And, and all of the decisions narratively stem from the fact that they're like, we can only have one actor physically, ah two actors physically in one location. And I feel like even in that scenario, you can do a lot more with that. Yeah, you you could even just make her ah have a her of like you said, like have a more interesting conflict because there's a moment towards the end where she's saying like, I killed I killed my mom, my mama. She keeps saying mama. But but but but that
00:39:23
Speaker
That's not actually like her saying that she's just like, oh, I didn't pray with my mom. And then she got really sick. I i was hoping it was going to be something actually like like that would be cliche in a different way where like she is actually responsible for like her mother's condition. But at least that's something, you know, like but then when it's like, oh, I didn't pray with her. i'm like, just get the fuck out of here.
00:39:48
Speaker
I think if the movie did a better job in term, cause she does eventually end up killing her mother. Right. Like she does do that. Right. Right. um But i feel like if the movie was better, just like took that extra step, I think that the movie should have had it. So she killed her mother a lot earlier.
00:40:05
Speaker
Right. And that the mom was dead the whole time. Exactly. And she was like imagining the death rattles and things like that because she killed her mother. Then it would have been like the telltale heart, you know, get some Edgar Allen Poe in this. Right. Yeah. That's something.
00:40:18
Speaker
Right. But but instead, it just takes like the most cliche thing where she says that it's a good line in theory. But then she over explains it to the point where you're like, oh, well, you know, is it right? And then you get that reveal later. And then you're like, OK, well, that whole moment is then undermined because now it's for real. And like, it's just the movie felt like watching like short films from like student filmmakers. It felt like watching something where they had to make something. They made something, but they didn't really understand the mechanics of filmmaking. And the...
00:40:55
Speaker
like all the parts where you're like, maybe this thing works. um It feels like it's good. Well, rather than, you know, anything, it's like in a participation trophy. And the fact of the matter is, is there's just way more interesting horror films being made.
00:41:09
Speaker
Frogman is getting a sequel. I'd much rather watch Frogman and give that my attention. Yeah, you know, i always want to support independent filmmakers and like it's someone who's trying to to cut their teeth and and get in But like like we said with Shelby Oaks, it's like there's no like participation trophy. Like I don't have to like just because i like the idea of someone.
00:41:32
Speaker
doing something on a small budget and like, you know, getting to, you know, show their chops. I'm like, okay, well then show me something. Cause this is supposed to be like kind of your calling card as a director of like, this is what I can do. And I don't know that I walk away with that strong of an impression. I mean, and, and it, you know, I'm not speaking to all low budget horror filmmakers when I say this, but it feels like there's like a ah kind of a cynicism now to where it's in. Maybe this is partly just because the industry, the way it is, there's less and less pathways in, but like a lot of people, if when they're making like their debut horror film, I'm like, do you actually like horror? or Are you doing this because, and, and great filmmakers have done that admittedly and straight just said like horror is not my genre i wanted to do this just so like this is my break-in there's great great examples of that and of that working but i just think that there's like there's a sensibility where it's like they need to do something else than just a horror movie where i'm like well so do you just feel like that you i feel like you don't understand what's good cool about this genre then
00:42:41
Speaker
Well, there totally is a thing within the industry where executives will totally say to people like, okay, here's your pitch, but can you turn it into a horror movie? Right. And that's why you'll get a lot of these, you know, like romantic films set in one location, maybe like a cottage where it also somehow is a horror film. Right. And like, there's a lot of these kinds of movies where it's exactly like you explained up, where it's like their heart's not really in it. And this is a circumstance. I feel it's a bit different. I feel like this is somebody who wanted to make a horror film and then got the script and then, or got this concept and this funding.
00:43:14
Speaker
Right. And was like, I'm just going to make this right. Because they had this opportunity and they weren't quite ready for it. They didn't properly sort it out and they didn't realize what they had in terms of budget. Like, that's not saying, you know, they had a lot of budget, you know, but they didn't use it wisely. I don't think. Right. Like, I feel like Undertone could have been a bit smarter in how it was constructed if it was going to be just that.
00:43:39
Speaker
But I think that all of this is to say, like, I don't think that, you know, a way to improve ah a young artist is to just like toss them in the bin. I don't think it's about, you know, like, OK, let's, like you know, like make them seem like they're, you know, unsalvageable. Right. No, because this is yeah everyone has to start somewhere. I've made bad shorts, you know, like so like I, you know, I sympathize with like if his next film is something and I hear it's good, I'll go see it. Like I'm rooting. I'm not rooting against ah Ian Toussaint, you know, like I know it's like when I heard the concept of the film, I was like, oh, that's a cool idea. let me see how this is executed. I didn't care for the execution, but maybe his next thing is better executed.
00:44:28
Speaker
Well, at the end of the day, everybody has the capacity to get better. Right. And that's what we can hope for. Right. It's different if they're putting out like hateful shit. And in this circumstance, you know, the worst thing I can say about it is they used a really bad AI image. And it's like, for that reason alone, I'm i'm looking at the muscant. Right. Yeah. But then it feels like pro prayer propaganda.
00:44:48
Speaker
You say your prayers. Yeah.
00:44:53
Speaker
Call me Ricky Gervais the way I don't let theology in. like Get out of here.
00:45:01
Speaker
uh but yeah yeah it's really hard to give any benefit of the doubt with it it's so weird that no one is talking about that in the discourse of the movie because you first you just see the face for like a second when it's on her laptop when they're talking about some viral image from from this this you know chain email thing and then it pops up on her tv at the end and once it starts moving any ambiguity that i had of like of because initially ah you know like when we had jared on in he was you know thinking like oh well maybe they tried to make it ai like you know because you know because ai is demonic and you know there's part of me that wants to give people the benefit of the doubt that way but once i saw it in motion i was like that's fucking a i like that's not i was saying
00:45:47
Speaker
Yeah, there's no discounting it, you know, like you see it for a moment you're like, that is AI for sure. and and And it's so stupid, too, because it's like for the the budget's not the reason that you can say that that is the way that it is for the amount of screen data. The children's drawings are scarier. Like, and I even said that those weren't the most original things, but at least that's something like that's if you saw that image of that face, but like of a child crayon drawing on the TV, that's scarier than a fucking a red AI face.
00:46:21
Speaker
They needed to do like they they need to do like what they do with like those creepy images that they post with creepy pastas. You know, like what's the one Jack the killer, you know? Oh, sure. sure Right. Like, like, a you know, Smile Dog. Right. You know, you just take a picture and you deep fry a bit, you know, and and like that's it.
00:46:39
Speaker
You know, you make it look uncanny, but you don't need to actually use a machine to generate it. You take it into Photoshop, you know, you crunch, you crush the shadows, you know, you boost the exposure a bit, you know, change proportions on the eyes or something, you know, like whatever it's done.
00:46:59
Speaker
Call it a day, right? Like it's over, right? it's It's finished. Instead, they were just like, okay, we're going to type into a machine and it's going to give us an image. And that's going to be the centerpiece of our car. Because you build up to it. That's what makes it so weird where I'm like, if this is like your money shot, don't you want this to be like really fucking Like, don't know. it it's It's more egregious than the one that was in the VHS short right from VHS Halloween. Because that's like kind of just in the background from what I remember, like that you just walk past, you see it back there like, yeah, this is like no, no we we show we show briefly in the beginning and then we're like, all right, gar are you guys ready? Here it is.
00:47:41
Speaker
Yep. It's like, didn't you miss this shot? You know, like, aren't you excited for us to do? things oh she's She's crying. She's crying now. Oh, look, it's moving. but Okay.
00:47:52
Speaker
Like the the most interesting aspect of that sequence is how the whole room is cast in red and she's ah like around the television, right? Like that image is good enough. The problem in that scenario is the fact that they chose to make it an AI image that takes me out of that sequence.
00:48:07
Speaker
Like, and I'm not saying that it's just like some AI Luddite or whatever, but it truly is that ugly. And it truly is one of those situations where it's like, you could have just done something far simpler and it would, ah I would have appreciated it a lot more. It's it's really ah disappointing and confounding. I'm an AI lot out. I'm Sam Brockwell right now. you People can't see me, but I'm wearing like kind of like, tre you know, garbage bag with like all the like time travel gizmos that he had. Like, yeah, that's that's me right now.
00:48:37
Speaker
Doug's been to the bathroom like three times, you know, the capiter they reference in that film, you know, you know,
00:48:46
Speaker
ah Uh, yeah. So it is just under what, like, I didn't walk out, like, like I walked out Shelby Oaks, like kind of annoyed, like in mad, but this, I was just kind of like, Oh, okay. You know, it was just, it was just a letdown, you know, like, uh, you know, and disappointing. Yeah.
00:49:05
Speaker
I'll just say, you know, like, you know, better luck next time. Like, you know, um, I'm not ruined against anybody. Yeah, it's it's different than Shelby Oaks because Shelby Oaks was a situation where it's like, here's our new horror master, Chris Stuckman. You know, like yeah it was like, and you're going to like it kind of thing. And and that's a little different. Right. But with this thing, it kind of flies by night. You know, it it probably made its budget back and then some on opening weekend anyways. So they'll probably announce a sequel that's not by this director. that Exactly. Exactly.
00:49:38
Speaker
Oh, wait, is he attached to, ah you know, IMDB take a grain of salt? Things aren't always current or, you know, this could be something that was gestating that got canceled in Tucson attached to Untitled Paranormal Activity Project 2027. Oh, it all falls into place. It all makes sense now. So this was his audition, I guess. Yeah, it was. That's what it was.
00:50:04
Speaker
I can leave a camera in one place for long enough. Yeah, like how small a budget can you do in like what, like one location can you give us a horror movie that gives us a return on investment? And he's going to, it's going to show that yes, he can. So yeah, but hopefully, again, still rooting for him because I would like a good Paranormal Activity movie. So like if it's, if he has some kind of in or cool idea, like maybe he's more confident now that he's like gotten...
00:50:33
Speaker
whatever this is out of his system that, you know, that, yeah you know, maybe he has some tricks that we haven't seen. Cause like I said, there are like when the camera starts moving and stuff, like it makes me excited that I thought something was going to happen with that. Like, like there's a shot where it starts upstairs and kind of like cranes down, like almost into like a rainy S fashion where I was like, Oh, is this, this guy's got some energy going here. And then it's like, no, actually that the, the shot doesn't have anything to No, the the filmmaker has no grasp on intentionality or, you know, building suspense in a, in a way, I guess he's perfect for the paranormal activity franchise because like that was what a lot of the worst ones had problems with.
00:51:15
Speaker
um and And I have no reason to believe that he's going to make a better paranormal activity film, to be honest with you. There's nothing in underdome that makes me go like this guy needs to be the lead of this. Just the same way. I didn't think the guys who directed catfish should be directing paranormal activity movies, you know?
00:51:33
Speaker
Yeah, but what if it's like a podcaster and his family moves into a house and then there's something a little... don't know if that's his thing. It's not audio... It's specifically just like audio horror. It's just like podcaster. Yeah.
00:51:49
Speaker
Well, we could we can speak a bit to the experience of podcasting, right? But didn't you find it hilarious, their recording process for the and for Undertone, right? I don't know what what- They record for 20 minutes.
00:51:59
Speaker
Yeah, and then like, I have a headache. I'm sorry. can we record in like a week again? Yeah, right? I gotta change my mom's poopy diaper and then yeah set set up a subplot about my the baby daddy that has nothing to, you know, that' that's just to establish that I have a baby. Like it has nothing to do with anything.
00:52:21
Speaker
and And then like when you listen to what the podcast actually is, right? Like it's just like the guy going like, and here's a creepy tape that we got from this creepy place. And then like you play the tape, right? And then she goes, well, didn't you hear that?
00:52:37
Speaker
And he's like, what? And he goes, well, it's obviously fake. You could clearly fake this. And that sounds like a great, a great podcast. And they have live they have live episodes that people call into.
00:52:55
Speaker
Ludicrous. You know, Stavis world or something, you know, it's like, like where what what software are you guys using? that's That's incredible. You can you can do clips and live live shows. Let me let me know what you guys are on.
00:53:09
Speaker
I would love it if like they called in and they just didn't call in about like other ghostly related stuff. They were just like, yeah, so my girlfriend cheated on me. And now like I'm looking for a place to stay and like, I don't know, should I get back together with her? You know, like, like one of those kind of calls like in place of anything. They should have done a ghost watch kind of thing where there were multiple threads of it. Like, like maybe they like multiple cases, not just the like the the tapes from this couple, but people were calling in with their individual things. And then it escalated or started to link just so you could just copy the end of ghost watch where it's like they kind of get infected by the tapes being played, you know, like they're like spreads to these other people who have called. Yeah.
00:53:51
Speaker
this movie kind of weirdly plays a dead stream where you get one of the callers who comes it calls in it and just like yeah you're fucked like they do like one of those yeah and like i thought that that was kind of effective but then like the other calls i'm just like i know where this is going you know like and yeah so expected about the film and like any of the goodwill that we've given this filmmaker it's like more of a better luck next time kind of thing more than like ah i saw something in this guy that makes me think that he's going to be some kind of great director Yeah.
00:54:23
Speaker
I mean, I will watch that paranormal activity just because i want you you tell me there's some found footage slop. I'll, you know, tell me, tell me where. Gobble it up. Give me that slop.
00:54:35
Speaker
no speak speaking but Speaking of found footage, did you see that Backrooms trailer?
Excitement for Backrooms Movie and Liminal Spaces
00:54:41
Speaker
i am very hyped. I think that's going to be a very good movie. i've i'm in And you know what? I've, you know,
00:54:50
Speaker
I'm not going to make a whole discourse out of film film Twitter hate. I think a lot of people are just jealous when filmmakers get opportunities. Has there been a lot of hate? and Not a ton, but I think some people who are are just kind of ah dismissive, I've or i've already people who are like, oh, well, this back room, they just lifted the house of leaves or something. mean...
00:55:16
Speaker
i mean ah hey, great for this kid. Like, cause I think that's a fucking awesome. This, that, uh, I forget how old he was when he made that initial short, but no, he's probably like 16 when he made. Yeah. He's like, he's like 20 now.
00:55:30
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. So the fact that he's getting and to be, uh, to, uh, release something on this scale and to get the actors that he has like Chiotel like and like yeah that trailer was was was great because especially like once you saw Chiotel getting the film crew I was like jumping up and down was like yeah here we go yeah We get him on found footage like we've got an Oscar winner. Right. He won an Oscar. Right. Yes. And to have exactly right. To have an Oscar winner on in a found footage film, I think is just like that that makes me tickled a little bit, you know, but then also like.
00:56:12
Speaker
My bigger thing is that I think that limeral spaces is an untapped ah land in terms of exploration thematically, politically, all of it. And I think specifically it is generational. I think that we're going to see a lot of people within these younger generations explore very similar ideas. And this is just the start of it.
00:56:32
Speaker
And the reason it's exciting is because this guy was part of the... Like innovation of this aesthetic, right? Backrooms originated as just like, you know, a post, I think on 4chan or so one of those like something awful form, him something like that, you know, just like, you know, an image of a place. And then it was up to Kane Parsons to kind of like create some kind of mythology around that. And it became like its own ARG kind of thing. I'm not so interested in the ARG stuff. I think that the imagery itself means something. I think it's an evolution in horror filmmaking. I think that this idea of the back rooms is going to speak to people in a way that's deeper and more resonant than Freddy Fazbear and Five Nights at Freddy's ever could be could be. I think that ah the critics who are going to watch this film are gonna be blindsided by what it's going to be. I think that the the people who are fans of it are going to get like things that they weren't expecting in ways that are bigger.
00:57:28
Speaker
I think that it's a highly... like This is like one of my most anticipated of the year. I think that something is going on with this in a very interesting way. I think that like it's going to be a massive push in terms of like what younger filmmakers are going to look to in terms of what their horror is going to look like.
00:57:45
Speaker
I agree. Yeah, it always like it's already is like its own subgenre in terms of like you look at like video, like on Steam, how many like back rooms rip offs there are. And then in film, we already know that there's like stuff like, well, Exit 8 was a game first, but like there's yeah that movie coming out. I still need to watch that. I've seen it. I can I can talk a bit about that after this. But yeah. continue Yeah. ah No, I was just looking at the cast. I didn't realize Mark Duplass is in this and he wasn't even in the trailer. So I don't know. Maybe he's one of the guys in the government suits. But what if he's an entity? It's just Mark Duplass in the back room. Oh, I'm going to make a puppy chair, too. You know, he's coming. Oh, I mean, you watched Room 203 or whatever it it's called. Oh, I'm serviceable on the morning show, you know, like that seems good after people.
00:58:39
Speaker
What do you think the people who are like the liminal spaces are spooky enough on their own and you don't need a monster? I, I i agree. I'm of two minds because I think the the imagery itself is powerful. And just if you're ever just in a place like, that you know, like it was not a fully abandoned building, like just like a hotel where there's not a lot of people checked in or something. It's like it feels our parking garage. there's There's a feel to it with no with no monster. But the monster.
00:59:12
Speaker
it can It could go both ways, but within this context, I'm hoping the movie capitalizes on it. It just kind of further enhances the you shouldn't be here feeling like because like that's kind of like that. that it's It's like a physical like reconstituary. Because like I made a joke post about like, if there wasn't a monster, I'm just going to like chill and like smoke a joint or something, you know, like it's nothing chasing me out. I'm like, this is kind of weird, but I'm sit down. There's a couch. All right.
00:59:43
Speaker
There's multiple for what it looks like. yeah But that I think that instead it's it's like it actually exited. It's a great movie to compare this to. But I think that the source more so is a movie like Cube, right? Where youve you've got a scenario where there's some kind of rules in an off kilter setting, right? And people are trying to explore deeper and deeper and find some kind of truth, right?
01:00:06
Speaker
and the setting of like an of a of a furniture store going out of business, I think it's like perfect because it's exactly meeting the themes of what this is. And it's this like thing that they discover just in the middle of this unlikely place. I think that that's going to be a goldmine in terms of like what you can have this film be about. And then when it comes to what ah the interior of what the back rooms would be like, Obviously, in the mythology of what the back rooms are, it's this kind of like ever shifting space. You know, like it's it's a weird environment when you first enter. That's just like endless hallways. But then it becomes like, you know, things are on the ceiling and, you know, it's it's very off kilter. And the idea of the back rooms is that the further you di dive, your escape is into other back rooms. It's this idea that like that one scenario is just one level. And it just keeps going further and further in different kinds of settings.
01:01:01
Speaker
So ah there there is also an entity right in this idea of what the back rooms are. Right. There is a, you know, fictional villain and he kind of looks like, you know, black string cheese, you know, just kind of floating in the air based on. Well, they've they've added to there's like multiple entity like it's like kind of like its own good. eco ecosphere, you know, where it's like different levels have different things. So like I kind of again, like like i could see the the monster, a physical monster cheapening it. But to me, yeah, that's almost just like part of the escalation because like i would imagine similar to in the shorts, I haven't seen all of them, just like the first one and maybe one of the other ones. But like it's not the first levels. You're not getting chased by a thing like you go. It's not to go deeper. Yeah, you get deeper in because it's almost like
01:01:48
Speaker
It's eerie, but you want to know more. So pull it it but you know pulls you. it like That's the thing that makes Chiwetel want to get a a film crew and go in there and film it. Because it's like, what is this? I've discovered something. It's not until you get deeper in where you're like, fuck, I shouldn't have gone this deep.
01:02:05
Speaker
there There is, ah you know, like we've referenced a couple of times exit eight, you know, it's coming out, I believe this month in April. Right. But very soon it's it's it's been leaked online. I've watched it already.
01:02:18
Speaker
And i will say without spoiling the film, um There are many similar plot devices in the backroom's backstory as in Exit 8. And I can very much so specifically within like the threat, as well as like reoccurring elements, I could see them taking similar directions in terms of what their plot necessities are. I'm leaving it very vague because i don't want to spoil it for you, Doug, because you haven't seen it. Yeah, I'm going to watch it. I mean, just from what I know from looking at the Exidate game on Steam, also mixing this up with another Backrooms-esque thing, like to progress, you kind of have to, it's it's it's not just like about running away from like an entity or a monster. It's like being able to identify anomalies is like key to knowing when to proceed or not proceed. Because like if you go, i forget which one it is, but like if you see that something's off, then you don't get on the train.
01:03:15
Speaker
Or yeah, you go, you go back. Yeah. there There's no train. There's only one hallway, right? yeah It's either you walk down the hallway or you don't walk down the hallway. That's the rules of exit. It's very simple. And the reason I say it that way is because I think that especially in this younger realm of horror, like this new generation of horror, there's a lot of like rules.
01:03:35
Speaker
There's a lot of like clearly defined rules. It's like, if you do this, you're fucked. If not, you know, keep going or whatever. Right. And you see it even in something that's not really horror, but like squid games, right? Huge, huge. Then you look at like ah Five Nights at Freddy's, right? Like the whole game is based around rules. It's based around, you know, do these things or you're fucked, right? And very, so and exit eight, obviously, you know, you do those things or you're fucked. And and I think that back rooms is going to operate in a very similar way, you know, very baseline, but you know,
01:04:03
Speaker
go back to the 80s slasher films, right? Like the best eighty slashers had those indefinable rules that you broke those, then you're fucked. So I see this as ah just a natural extension of something very classical and these people don't really have a name for it. And I think that that's actually very exciting to see as like, you know, an evolution of ah these spaces.
01:04:24
Speaker
Yeah, I'm excited. It's just, yeah, just be kind of seeing like a new a movement or whatever you want to call it, you know, a new subject, the birth of the birth of something. Any anytime there's just something new in an artistic space, it's exciting. So like, ah you know, horror is a genre I love. And the fact that like it's it's it's always going to be evergreen in terms of it can tread new ground. moot But the fact that like this is where we're getting to this now, I think, yeah, it's very potent.
01:04:54
Speaker
And also on that front, you know, because there were all these interviews that came up beforehand where people were like, uh, uh, Ejiofor was talking about, you know, like, uh, this guy, he films, like he's never seen many movies, you know, like his reference points are completely different. Right. That's exciting. you that That A, it's exciting, right? But then B, when you watch the trailer and you're thinking about you know what films are inspiring this guy as he's watching it, I'm seeing a lot of Ari Aster. He's doing a lot of like hereditary shit in terms of like keeping the camera very far and wide and letting the action play out. And I think that in almost like in a storybook kind of way. And and and i I love that look because something that we miss a lot in modern cinematography, largely because of productions, is deep focus, you know, a wide frame that has large blocking, you know. So many things today are filmed with a shallow depth of field with two actors in a room. And that's it, right? Right. And it really is refreshing to see a filmmaker who's like the so setting is the star.
01:06:01
Speaker
Even though we have an Oscar winner, we are going to make sure that the space feels lived in. And we're going to sell that just in how we capture the film. So it's like it's bare minimum shit, but I'm happy that this guy is thinking that way. Well, and to go to like actually shooting, you know, like having sets and shooting these things physically
Future of Filmmaking and Independent Platforms
01:06:20
Speaker
work. Cause like originally the original shorts is just him using blenders. Like yeah the green screen and blender. Like, yeah. So like the, he's got actors now in like actual, like, you know, like he has a budget like that he's using. It's like, this is, this is really cool.
01:06:37
Speaker
Like so there are some people who are like YouTubers can't be filmmakers. Right. And I think that's wrong. You know, I think that filmmakers are destined to become YouTubers. I think it's the opposite. I think yeah we're going to get to a point where like a filmmaker isn't going to independently distribute with like YouTube.
01:06:54
Speaker
A24 or Neon. They're going to have their own platform where they're able to release their own films independently that way. Right? And it's going to become based not so much on what brand they're associated with that got their thing through. It's going to be based on one-to-one Patreon style. That's what's going to... The future of independent film, in my eyes, is. Right? And it's not because... Like, I see that as a nightmare scenario in many ways, right? Because a lot of people are going to get way less funding, right? But then also at the same time, it's like the days of American hegemonic power are in the past, right? Like, and that's going to go all the way down. Because the studios are, you know, going, it's great. We're seeing the Hindenburg collapse and in like, it's in slow motion because it's not happening like all at one time, but it's like, it's happening.
01:07:41
Speaker
There will be a period of like insane wealth extraction where you'll see like, you know, things that are like you would never believe, you know, things where you're like that. That's crazy. Like I can't smash brothers movie made a trillion billion quadrillion dollars. Movies are saved.
01:08:00
Speaker
And then like, you know, 10 years from now, the American film landscape is going to be like, ah you know, the way that like Western audiences treat like, you know, the blockbusters from like Russia, you know, where they're just like, oh, that's huge there.
01:08:15
Speaker
Like, really? You know, like, that's the one, you know, like, like that, that's going to be the the the tone around American films in the not too distant future, in my opinion. Yeah, probably. um Yeah, I could see it easily becoming a nightmare scenario, but it is a little exciting in terms of like, yeah, with less kind of like a ah less of a corporate vice grip, like what what what kind of freedom that opens up? I mean, yes, there'll be like less, less distributors, less money going around to the people who need it. But like, I don't know, our art survives in all scenarios. So like, well, they'll fight people will find a way to make their stuff.
01:08:53
Speaker
There will always be crazy rich people who give like great artists enough money to make something.
Discussion on 'In the Loop' and Political Satire
01:08:58
Speaker
You know, you'll always have the good Ellison who runs Annapurna to give Paul Thomas Anderson some money. Right. Like that's the purpose of rich people. That's the only reason they should exist.
01:09:08
Speaker
But you know what? Speaking as a Canadian, maybe the idea of a government funded film program isn't the worst idea in the world. You know, I'm just going to say that, you know, I i would love that. i just don't see i don't see our government doing anything like good with money anytime soon.
01:09:25
Speaker
Hey, and I'll be the first one to admit that like the Canadian government doesn't do such a great job in terms of you know kicking it back to the artists who deserve it, let alone you know do a good job with what they're you know doing. But that being said, the idea of at least the government you know seeing some kind of value in terms of cultural output, I think is a value to all countries. All countries should be able to have some kind of mandated films that are coming out, at least not to not to meet propagandic means, mind you. but Right. To represent the cultures of, you know, whichever country we're talking about.
01:09:57
Speaker
Well, that would require seeing a return investment as something other than like more capital, you know, like, oh, well, if this is this, we're not going to make money on that. So like, why would we fucking give these guys money to make a thing? It's like, well, because it's another kind of currency. It's called art. it's It's called decades. Have you heard of them? You know, centuries. It's called making a legacy. Yeah. I talked to about better man on a podcast recently. And I love the fact that that movie is an Australian Chinese co-production.
01:10:28
Speaker
Maybe China's the future. i mean, China's the future on a lot of stuff. Gee, I've got some horror films. I've got yeah romance, you know, sci-fi, you know, gee, if you want to hit me up, you know, let me know. I'll give you my personal phone number just for you. though
01:10:46
Speaker
Oh, OK. So, yeah, that's all exciting. i think it's probably time we the reason we're all here. yeah now we're in 10 minutes into the podcast. Let's talk about the movie. well These guys got you. sweet That's what you listen for.
01:11:22
Speaker
It'll be the first time that I do ah a late, because normally there's only like a little bit of lead into the movie and then I have a clip at the beginning. This will be like mid episode clip. And I still don't know which clip I'm going to use because there's so many, like that's the thing of like Ian Nucci scripts are so dense in terms of like, it's just characters dunking on each other. So like, yeah, an idea. I've got an idea. So you need to have like a remix or you need to have like a clip from the movie. Right. and So like, I don't know how I got this brain worm in, in my head. But like ever after I watched this movie, like I was like conflating it with the ah Biggie small song, give me the loot. And I was going in the loop, in the loop over and over again. You know, that's pretty good. Yeah.
01:12:12
Speaker
You could do something like that, maybe? i I like that. In the loop, in the loop.
01:12:23
Speaker
um ah So, yeah, we're talking about 2009's In the Loop, directed by Armando Iannucci, which, you know, there's a lot going on in the movie. But, you know, I guess the short version is that it's it's a satire about showing like the American and British side on a lead up to a war in the Middle East where no one involved seems to kind of know what they're doing. And, ah yeah, I mean, it's they all climb the ladder of escalation.
01:12:53
Speaker
Right. It's it's a totally fantastic scenario that could never happen multiple times within a decade a couple of for more than like god know it's It's not something that's like constantly repeated all the time or is happening right now. So i don't even really know why we're talking about it <unk> I'm so glad that you recommended that we did talk about this. Let's just get that on the record. Right. Yeah. Because like Armando Iannucci, you know, as well as some of the other people will talk about, you know, like Simon Blackwell and Jesse Armstrong, who are part of this film behind the camera. But 2009, this movie came out. I never watched the original show in the thick of it or whatever it was called. Yeah, me neither. Yeah.
01:13:35
Speaker
but but But I knew about this movie. It was certainly on my radar when it came out. And and I'm the kind of like nerdy person where I'm like, oh, you yeah, you got a movie. yeah You got some politics. and You got to put them together. Like, I got to watch it. You know, like, like this was totally catnip to me the moment that I heard that this existed. And I was certainly not let down. and And to show my credentials as an Iannucci head, um i I went to the TIFF premiere of Death of Stalin. You know, like I'm a fan of this filmmaker. And yes, it is. and I would love to talk about that one one day. Yeah, we should we should do that because that was even better on on rewatch. And, you know, like with that movie, ah you know, I always joke about.
01:14:18
Speaker
Filmmakers saying they're the same kind of communists as me. People have criticized that that for taking liberties with like the actual history, especially when there is so much misinformation or just outright propagandic lies about the Soviet Union during that time. But I...
01:14:35
Speaker
I don't think he knew she is misrepresenting it for that reason. It's just he's playing, glu you know, one, he's not claiming to be a a documentarian. And then also it's for the he's making a point about the now with that, you know, like that's a Stalin isn't about Stalin, you know, like that actual power grab. It's kind of just a big picture. You know, this is what happens when there's a power void.
01:15:00
Speaker
And maybe there'll be of a broader picture for the listener at home, what to expect from an Armando Iannucci project. Like, obviously, many of his films are very political in nature. They're meant to show you like the behind the scenes of certain figures or types of people who exist within modern life. And the whole thesis of Iannucci stuff is that these people are a lot dumber, a lot more petty and and and mean spirited than the media would let you on to believe. And I think that what's been great about this message is that over time, it's only gotten better and more poignant with the way that ah modern politics has played out. It's been proven correct.
01:15:38
Speaker
Because we we see it. For sure. Right. Yeah. We we see it every day. Sorry. Sorry. i didn got in two thousand No, no, no. It's all good. But, but the point I'm getting at, it's like in 2009, when like in the loop is coming out, right? Like this is the era of Bush, you know, and Cheney and Condoleezza Rice, you know, and all this stuff like, uh, I even forget what the British leader, Tony Blair, I believe was his yeah in charge then. And ah back then, you know, like there was still like a surface level veneer of professionalism. George Bush did embarrassing things, but these were seen as like, you know, oh no, he escaped containment. You know, like it was not like, you know, yeah, this is a regular thing that happens. This movie is unbelievable. and I'm sure the show is, very much so about like how every day this is like a failure of communication, a battle of egos and wits. you know like like it's It's showing that this is a lot more high school roughhousing rather than any kind of serious political conversation. and And to build out from that to get to what you were saying with Dezio Stalin,
01:16:45
Speaker
um I think that there's a level of apoliticization that are, you know, G and Armstrong and company try to do where they try to go like, well, we're talking about anyone, right? Like we're, you know, like they try to make it as anonymous as possible in terms of what they could be talking about, which sides they could, be they don't even say a specific country in this movie. yeah They, we just know it's a conflict in the middle East.
01:17:10
Speaker
Exactly. yeah but But I think that they know that the the audience is smart enough to know what they're talking about. i think that they're not doing that in a way where, you know, it's not like a Top Gun Maverick or right like a warfare, right, where it's like, you know, we're removing the context to then make you see this as universal. I think that they're removing the context so it actually becomes far more specific and you know exactly what they're talking about.
01:17:35
Speaker
And it helps it be timeless because there are no one to one. Like there isn't like sure a specific Tony Blair analog or a George Bush analog. But we see that kind of cowboy brashness in the American side. So you don't need like a George Bush character. It's just it's just in the air.
01:17:56
Speaker
and And what I like about this, too, is that um rather than making it seem as though this time is special, it makes it seem as though this is like history repeating itself over and over again. This is the story of every time this quagmire comes up. Right. It's not it has nothing to do with political disagreements between one country and another. it has everything to do with like people in these rooms trying to work their ways to the best possible position they can find. Right.
01:18:24
Speaker
and geopolitics be
Character Analysis in 'In the Loop'
01:18:26
Speaker
damned. um And what what I find interesting about this film is that, you know, if we're talking about the plot, you know, like what this movie is about and like the mechanics of it all, it can be very complex. It's it's a very like ah dialogue heavy, like, you know, if you're looking for the football in terms of like trying to trace what all these things mean, your head will spin. Right. But right when it comes to like the emotional narratives are like when you're following what all of these characters personally are trying to move through the story, it's very broad. So I find that this film actually works quite well in terms of like allowing this to just exist as like a piece of entertainment that you can just kind of accept and be like, oh, here are all these goofy things that are happening. But then if you're also looking for that deeper political context, all of it is there. It's there. actually is quite deep.
01:19:15
Speaker
But like you said, you can just track the because it's it's an escalation build up to a war. And then there's the people who really want this war to happen. And then there's ah some people who want that to not happen. And then there's characters who are very much not sure. Like like that's so I mean, we'll talk about Tom Hollander, but I love how he's kind of the encapsulation of.
01:19:39
Speaker
yeah I don't know, just like liberals, just like it ah it the inefficiency that, that he cannot like decide one way or another. Cause it's like kind of his flub in an interview that starts off a chain of events where he's like, Oh, war in the Middle East is, uh, what, in unforeseeable and, you know, and, and it's like it not, he shouldn't have said that, but also he can't say the opposite because foreseeable was bad. so it's like, it's not, war is not unforeseeable or foreseeable. Like, it like, you don't, neither one could be true right now.
01:20:15
Speaker
And I forget the exact position that Hollander holds in this film, but like he's a position where it's like, you know, he's big enough to where what he says is going to become news. Right. Right. But then like, it's also like a situation where like it would also have been acceptable for him to not say anything at all. Like he he only said that because um it's expressed that he is kind of an anti-war candidate. Like he doesn't want there to be any kinds of wars. Yeah. But because he's an idiot and because like he doesn't really know what to say in the moment, it kind of comes across as hostile and possibly escalating the conversation. Right. And ah this movie very early on, it's it's showing you like the inner mechanics of how these things work. And maybe before we get into the plot of this so much, we should talk about like the the way that this is captured and is structured. Yeah.
01:21:06
Speaker
yeah So like, uh, you, you watch the show, right? Maybe afterwards I watched an episode of it. I, I, I am intrigued and I do, you know, cause I like Jesse Armstrong and Ian Nucci as, as writers. And so, you know, like I'm more familiar with the American version of this, which is, is uh,
01:21:25
Speaker
ah Veep does a little bit of the like faux documentary stuff. I mean, it's not like a mockumentary where there's like talking head interviews or anything, but in terms just the camera movements and how it's like tracking yeah characters like like like ah this does. And it's in the show. The show starts with, it's like the first day of someone working on the staff for for this you know this minister in the camera. But like it's a different... It's a different, like, it's like the Minister of Transportation or so or something. it's a different crew, different characters. It's the same actor who plays Toby in this, who's like kind of the new guy in the other show. So there's not really a continuity. It's just Malcolm Tucker is the through line of like, he just seems kind of eternal. He's like a ghoul who's like his job on paper, I guess, is just like he's just like a PR spin doctor guy. But he also just seems like he's just like the muscle that the prime minister throws around, you know, like that, like if you need someone to break, break someone's legs to to stop a story or or to just like get another politician in line, it's like, OK, this is the guy they send.
01:22:42
Speaker
Played wonderfully by Peter Capaldi. He's probably one of his probably one of his best performances, right? Like it may be the best performance in this film. Maybe like I'll throw it there. i mean, a movie filled with strong performance. But yeah, yeah. I mean, because he just he commands every scene and in pointedly towards the end, there's scenes where he's not the one wielding the power. But even those are so compelling to watch how he reacts to that of like seeing the inversion of like him just dominating. And then the fact that there's like he has a guy who answers like another communications person who works under him, who's just like another angry Scottish guy.
01:23:23
Speaker
It's just younger. who kind of looks like Peter Capaldi as well. he just has a little deeper voice, right? It's perfect. I don't want to stray too far away about like how this was captured because I did want to touch on a few specific pinpoint things. And, and specifically I wanted to talk about Yes Minister. It was like a classic BBC sitcom from like the seventies and eighties. That was all about like a ministership in a similar way, right? Or was about the scandals, but it was a far more civil approach to it, right? It was about like, you know, like,
01:23:55
Speaker
interpersonal problems within like people, you know, in their garden shed, kind of similar to like Steve Coogan in this movie, right? We'll get to them as well. Yeah. um But, but ah another thing to bring up as well is obviously the Larry Sanders show, you know, which was seen as this massive ah evolution of mockumentary television, you know, like often it's used as the reference point for the office. Right. So obviously there's a bit of those two things there.
01:24:21
Speaker
But then we also got to talk a bit about Dogma 95, right? Because like a lot of the ah cinema verite language that was made popular in Dogma 95 and then kind of exploded through the filmography of Lars von Trier, that was something that was very clearly still within the lifeblood of young filmmakers in this period. Right. Like all of these things are kind of converging at once. We you have like the British references points. You've got the American reference points and then you have like the broader European art house kind of all coming together where this is going to be shot almost like a documentary, but nobody's talking to the cameras. It's all multi-camera on like professional equipment. It's something where it feels very lively and it doesn't feel like they're aware of being captured, but rather these are hidden cameras hidden somewhere. And it allows for it to feel like the office, but maybe a little more anonymous. And I like the fact that it feels that way. there's no reference to the camera at any point because in the office, yeah, they acknowledge the camera and you kind of understand there's a performativeness to like, yeah even if they forget sometimes or like, oops, you shouldn't have seen that, that they're like kind of intentionally knowingly playing something up to, to us, uh, the audience. Whereas this is like that we shouldn't be seeing this. Like, this is not how we're supposed to be seeing our politicians. Yeah.
01:25:44
Speaker
okay A lot of humor is derived from that. Right. But I think that this movie actually works better in a modern context where we ah view these people with a bit less respect. I think that this movie works a bit better when we kind of enter this. So we're like, there are a bunch of dirtbags, you know, like this. This movie ah doesn't work within the same context in which it was released in the sense that, like, it holds no reverence for any person in power.
01:26:11
Speaker
Right, because I think you at least are... i mean, because this I was to say, like... Toby is your entrance into this world. And, but he's not even like quote, unquote innocent at the start. He's just not as outwardly a bastard as everyone. But I feel like you see that he's just as, he's capable of not only is he capable of being just as cruel and manipulative as everyone else, but also that he wants to, that, that like, that this is like aspirational, like,
01:26:46
Speaker
fucking people over and like just being petty and and playing these games that this is like you see that and you're like like if you see someone like Malcolm Tucker like calling someone a cunt you're like yeah i I want to do that you're like inspired by him and you know that you're in the wrong path if that's the case right but the the thing with Terry right is that like he's introduced and like we know that he Like he's with his girlfriend and they're walking together at work.
01:27:20
Speaker
And the reality is like we can tell the relationship is on the rocks. Right. She doesn't even say, i forget if it's when they're walking or later, she like checks in on him and she says, I love you. And he's just like, yep.
01:27:35
Speaker
All right. Exactly. Right. Like there's a lopsided nature to their relationship that exists that like they are not calling into question. And then the moment that he arrives at the job, his first thing to do is to lean on his girlfriend because she's clearly in a more respectable and, you know, uh, more tapped in, uh, position than he is, uh, even if she's just a secretary at some other ministers position, right but he's able to use that knowledge to then kind of seem more impressive within where he is. So ultimately he kind of comes across as just like an opportunist in that scenario, but he's in welcome company because that's what all of those people are doing. Right. What's the name of that one assistant, the woman who doesn't get invited to the trip?
01:28:24
Speaker
Oh, oh, shit. It's Judy. Yes, Judy. Judy's amazing. Played by Gina McKee. she's she's She's great, yeah. Just like her face reaction to all this shit.
01:28:39
Speaker
And she's the one who seems like that she kind of has a life, like maybe. For sure. Like, you know, that she can leave She's husband. she She can leave this and feel satisfied. like Like when there's the threat of her being fired, I feel like she's kind of like, yeah, fucking fired. Like she kind of has that energy. Yeah. Whereas the rest of these people, this is everything like they need. That's why they're willing to crawl on top of millions of bodies to get to where they need to go, because this is like this is what they want.
01:29:10
Speaker
Judy is smarter than Terry because Judy knows that like where where she is, she's integral to that position. Right. If somebody needs something, they call her and she's got it sorted out. Right. And ah if if Terry were smart, he would be like Toby. Sorry, Toby. Yeah. together ah But but but fetus boy, as he's called. They give him a lot of different nicknames.
01:29:32
Speaker
The guy with the curly hair is the way I would refer to him, you know, like there's many, many names you go by. But but the thing is, like, he sees that he needs to like he thinks that his way with Hollander is to just like, you know, oh well, I got to just show that I'm better than her and that I'm like your bro that you can like come and talk to kind of thing. yeah And that's the wrong instinct, right? The instinct should have been to be like, no, I got to be the adult in the room that doesn't feed into your antics. I need to be the person who tells you no and and gives you the kind of framework of how this thing goes, which Judy does. She well she tries to be the adult. Yeah.
01:30:09
Speaker
she tries to be the adult, but he, Tom Hollander can't help himself because there's like, after the initial flub, you know, she's trying to, you know, Malcolm comes to do his damage control and is like, you, we gotta, you know, you can't talk, you know, in front of anybody, anybody. But, uh, when there are cameras and Judy tries to warn him of like,
01:30:29
Speaker
here, let's figure out a game plan. And then he's just like, I'm just going to wing it. And then he just like, just waltzes in. I think that's what he says is like, sometimes to pave the road to peace, you have to climb the mountain of conflict.
01:30:42
Speaker
i love It wine is so fucking good. and and then, and then he's mad at Judy afterwards for letting him say that she's like, I told you to stop, but he's like, no, that's what you told. If someone's about to hit hit by a train, you said train is like, no, you need to say, just there's a fucking train.
01:30:59
Speaker
This is your chance to main the line. Do you want to main the line? No, no, no, I'll freestyle. Wait. Hello there, hi. is war unforeseeable, Minister? Look, ah all sorts of things that are actually very likely are also unforeseeable. For the plane in the fog, um the mountain is um unforeseeable, but then it is suddenly very real and inevitable.
01:31:30
Speaker
Right. Is this your opinion or is this the government position? The mountain in the metaphor is a completely hypothetical mountain that could represent anything. Who is the plane and who is the mountain? What I'm saying is that to walk the road of peace, sometimes we need to be ready to climb the mountain of conflict.
01:31:51
Speaker
Thank you so much. You know I'm against talking up the war. You're against talking up the war? Is that why you said claim the mountain of conflict? So what you sounded like a fucking Nazi Julie Andrews.
01:32:03
Speaker
I love the the mountain of conflict line because it's like the perfect, like stupid bullshit that would be put on like a ah random article online. Right. Like this. This person said this and and it's seen as like, oh, they said something important about the moment, but really it has not like it's just meaningless. it's it's He's saying nothing, but it's also dangerous because it's so open-ended that that you can justify it. Because that's why the secretary of state assistant played but by, ah like, no one in this movie is good, but I guess David Rash is the closest to, like, an outright, like, villain, like, that he's the antagonist of who's, like, this war needs to happen, like, that he is, like, doing everything to make sure that it comes to fruition.
Political Rhetoric and Plot Mechanics
01:32:49
Speaker
So so it's like, of of course, he's the one who fucking loves that quote and even has it like framed in his office.
01:32:57
Speaker
And by the way, him him is Linton Berwick, I believe. i pulled up the thing. Yeah, like all these people should be called out. um He's amazing in this movie. Like he he is doing a lot of really, really good, like smarmy American acting movie. Yeah. It's really a lot of him and what's her face?
01:33:15
Speaker
um I think it's Gina McKee as Judy, right? The other American. Oh, no. that's kind Is it Olivia Pollitt? Susie?
01:33:28
Speaker
Maybe. Oh, I think I called it Judy. Actually, I misplaced the actress's face. um Just one second. Yeah, I believe it's Susie. She's the one who's who's like, yes, chips the tooth and is bleeding from her mouth in the meeting, which is a great line by David. I cannot abide a woman bleeding from her mouth. like It reminds me of country music. Oh, this stuff's just fogging up the airwaves. Am I right?
01:33:57
Speaker
ah another person who's killing it in this movie i i love uh zach woods you know incredible um the guy from the office like love that he's always rubbing it in the face of that one uh person who made the the the prip prip or whatever the uh klumski uh who plays liza uh she's great because i saw her she's in veep she's like part of the veep main cast so like like uh the fact that He was already she was already working with the Anucci is great. Kind of a very similar character in that who's just like the constantly shit on underappreciate.
01:34:34
Speaker
Like this clearly show you clearly see that it's like, yes, the staffers do all the work for these people. And like in terms like the prep and like preparing these documents. But this is the one time it's like that meme of like I accidentally became important at work. Because yeah her her her paper, on like and like it's like the the cons for for war and like, okay, so this is a problem because now there's like a documented evidence like why we shouldn't do this, but we it's going to happen. So we need to take care of that.
01:35:05
Speaker
Yeah, because the whole joke of the movie is that this British like a council member or whatever, they say something, you know, that kind of inspires people to reexamine the conflict. And then there is already this paper that has gone over the stuff that is causing people to second guess because there are already hypothetical plans to move into this area. So rather than try to snuff this thing out, they're trying to take that thing and readapt it because they're like, Maybe if we can have some ownership over this thing, then maybe, you know, we can get ahead of the spin. a lot of this movie is about, like you said, it's about these people who like are adjacent to power, who are kind of doing things right. And then the people in power who take those things to spin within their own context of what they want to push forward.
01:35:52
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Put pip is just it's just it's just a fun thing to make. It's like it's like the MacGuffin of the plot, but that it's such a silly thing to say is great.
01:36:09
Speaker
like a lot of people are constantly tripping over themselves trying to say it and then like everybody has their own ideas of what it is right we brought all these things like yes minister and and the larry sanders show and when it comes to like references for what this feels like but i think that the thing that ianucci's filmography feels closest to is actually uh christopher guest films like this has a lot in common with like best in show with like, you know, waiting for Guffman. A lot of this is just improvisational comedy. That's about like situational humor, right? These like little conversations that like can and do go wrong. And rather than having any moments where they're talking directly to the camera work and they just could fire off a couple of jokes, they're just doing it to each other.
Improvisational Style and Actor Performances
01:36:53
Speaker
And I think that actually aids in terms of its naturalism, because, again, there's no breaking of the fourth wall. We're just letting this all play out. And these actors are treating this as if they are these dweebs in these scenarios. And as we've established, there's this back and forth between Britain and America. um
01:37:11
Speaker
Obviously, Britain is trying to like have some ownership over itself while America is just trying to move forward. And I feel like that's the major conflict, at least within the first act where it's right. Britain is like, oh, we're a part of this. And then America is like, we're doing something. And then Britain's like, oh, wait, we got to follow you a bit. We got to see what you're doing. Because they're doing it whether or not, ah you know, Hollander says this thing. It's kind of like yeah he just puts a spotlight on it, which is inconvenient for the American agenda. But it's like this was going to happen. It's just now they maybe have some more bumps in the road that they need to smooth over. But it kind of never feels like at any point that this is going to be stopped. Like, it's just a boulder rolling down the hill, and you kind of just have to get out of the way, in which is, like, you see alliances and agendas shift between characters because they probably, like, you know, are clocking in real time of, like, well, this is, like, you it can't be stopped. But I love the constant flip-flopping of Hollander, who, you know, ostensibly, like you say, he probably ran as some kind of, you know, anti-war liberal, but, like, is, won't...
01:38:20
Speaker
vote take a stand one way or another because like when at the end when they're like all resigning you know you have the the congresswoman and then also the general played by gandalfino are like we're gonna resign like that's the our most powerful our powerful move right now and and he's like what if i did it the whole conversation he has like what would be better what what what what is what is braver to to resign and do the right thing and judy is immediately like yes that's the right thing he's like or what what if it's to stay If you go along with something you know is wrong.
01:38:56
Speaker
It's this, ah you know, it's this thing, right? That people, they they're totally self-interested, egotistical, you name it, right? Like they they are only focused in what their legacy is in office, right? Whenever these politicians come in, right? Like they'll do whatever cruel shit, right? But as long as like a library is named after them, they're good.
01:39:17
Speaker
Right. Right. Like and with these people, they're like like think about Liz Truss. Right. Like Liz Truss is still a public figure. Right. And like she should be laughed out of most places for the way that like all that went down. Right.
01:39:32
Speaker
but she's still seen as some kind of you know professional person and it's largely because these people have no shame and i and i love that about these politicians throughout this film is that no matter what position they're in they will do whatever it takes to get their position across and as we've seen with capaldi uh so far we haven't touched on him too far like he's like appearing in sequences and he's just like i'm here now tell me what's been going on when they go to america when they go to washington he he we don't even see him on the plane he just appears and then there's also a moment where like hollander and judy are in their car and they both get calls from him and there's like the joke of like how does he do that come to him he has two phones he's called both of them
01:40:19
Speaker
Amazing gag. And he's not like addressing one of them. He's just addressing both of them. Right. yeah So he can yell at them at the same time. he's ah and like in the audio design, you can actually hear the like him echoing through the receiver like as if like you can hear it through the other phone. Like it's it's really good filmmaking.
01:40:37
Speaker
Like I just have to say, like, it's just really funny that they they thought of this and they've executed it in this way. And this idea that he comes with them to America, right? Because we we get the sequence where it's like they're going to go to America. And then they have this evening to themselves. And what was his name again? Hold on. Let me pull it up again. ah What was the guy's name? Terry, Tommy, Toby. Oh, Toby.
01:40:59
Speaker
Yeah, Toby. So Toby's like, oh, so what are you going to do tonight? he's like, well, you know, I'm just going to stay at home and masturbate the shark week. Right. and like I love Larry cut to when he's watching. He's like, you really can tell the difference between the female shark. Yeah. Like he's into it.
01:41:17
Speaker
And I really love that. Like he joins him in watching Shark Week for a bit. Like you get a moment of them just without pants, like in their hotel room, just like eating room service before Capaldi comes in. Like it's just like a perfect like little human. Because the joke of is like how even as corrupt or self-serving cruel as these people are, they still, well, at least within this time 2009, they because of they because of they're still public servants, so they can't be outwardly. Like there's the whole joke of like, Oh, oh shit should we should have hookers. And then he's like, no, i can't, I can't do because he doesn't want to get in trouble. But the thing is now like, who gives a shit like fucking. Well, let's clarify. It's not because they plan to have hookers. It's because they're getting drive driven from the airport from an American envoy and the air a motor is just like,
01:42:07
Speaker
Yeah, they're in a motorcade and the guy driving them offers them hookers well because he overhears them joking about it. He's like, you want girls? and He's like, no, no, no. Which like maybe in a post Epstein world, it's probably far darker, you know, um because it's like there's just a driver and this like he works for probably all so many connected people. He's like, yeah, I can get you some girls.
01:42:32
Speaker
Right. It like it works so many ways in that sense. And then like Capaldi, he comes in during the evening. He's like, what is it? He's like, going to practice saying nothing. Yeah. You're going to sit there. You're not going to say anything. And he just starts watching Shark Week. And he's just like, you know, getting a call under to shut up. and And Toby goes out, you know, to hang out with this American intern to a larger person, ah Karen and li ah Liza, you know, these two Americans. and And Liza and Toby, they're meeting at like a heavy metal show, which I found really funny. Well, because because she makes the comment of like, yeah, they're partying hard, like they're metalheads now, but then they're going to go back to their job, like they're staffers, and they're going to go back to like like advocating for noise reduction, like, you know, ah bills and stuff. It's like, yeah, the the hypocrisy of like, the yeah, they need, you need some kind of outlet if that's like what your day in, day out. There's no
01:43:34
Speaker
There's no human way to do that and not have some release valve. It's just some of those guys have a much darker so mean like if if any big a metal show is like that's kind of healthy, I guess.
01:43:47
Speaker
Hey, like if like ah some congress person is doing like a windmill, you know, like they're getting their aggression out in a healthy way, in my opinion. You know, right. That's good. I would rather they do that.
01:43:59
Speaker
than, like, Epstein's Island or whatever. Right. like But the the idea that, like, you know, he's partying hard and then, like, he leaks something to, like, his CNN friend, right? because I love that line because he just... he He's, like...
01:44:14
Speaker
Toby's not stupid, but he like is like almost the power is immediately gone to his head where he's kind of like he he's kind of showing off. of because He's like, oh, you don't know about the the war planning committee. Like, is this CNN? Is this child news or child? It's like cartoon child something like he. Oh, cartoon news network. That's what he calls it. I mean, do I have the wrong CNN? So then, of course, because he says that to a journalist, everyone knows. And there's a gag of like, you finally get to like the committee. And there's like a bunch of people it is stuffed in. It's like a Marx Brothers gag of like, how how are this many people in here?
01:44:56
Speaker
we We have that paired with like Toby waking up the next morning where he slept with Liza, cheated on his wife or girlfriend or fiance. He lives with her. Yeah. yeah ah But but but but and and what feels like it because we we cut to Liza. She's perfectly she's not like hung over or anything. She's like doing. kind of screwed him over.
01:45:16
Speaker
that that's it That's what felt it felt like a move, like an intentional move, like ah because they were given information about a committee. But then as ah Malcolm points out, it's like, oh, well, that's the dummy like committee meeting like that. that That's not the actual war committee meeting. And I think, yeah, that that was just an attempt to kind of just lead them around, especially like, yeah, I'll just fucking get the staffer drunk. Then you won't know it. Yeah, I love that time. Right. And the British know anything. Right. And then like the one that was supposed to happen. Right. The one that the CNN hears about was supposed to just carry on on its own and and and nobody would have known and it would have have escalated things. But because all of this stuff leaked, it just keeps on going and going and going. And I believe it's around this period.
01:46:04
Speaker
we we we you brought them up earlier. i want to pull the grenade pin on it now. got talk about the powerhouse. probably the best actor in this film, Mr. James Gandolfini. He really is incredible because I had been rewatching Sopranos recently and it it is, it's a testament to his ability that it's like ah this general and Tony are very different. Occasionally, as mostly towards like one of his final scenes, I do hear a little bit of Tony come out, like when he's talking to the one Senator about the time they hooked up. He was like, I don't even remember.
01:46:40
Speaker
Like it was like, okay, that's a little Tony in there. It's kind of like how Austin Butler can never exercise the Elvis from his system fully. Like it's just like part of his DNA.
01:46:51
Speaker
Right. Well, the thing we got to say about Gandolfini, let's put this into perspective a bit, right? He died, is dead four years after this movie, right? Like, that's insane, right? like Like, it's a tragedy, deep tragedy, right? But it's like, the fact that he is close to death is the idea we should take it, right? is And it's still giving... powerhouse performances because I think of when I think of like kind of like his last hurrah of stuff like yeah this was four years out but then even stuff closer to the end like he was still fucking good in killing them softly like which said yeah yeah and especially killing them softly is about someone who's kind of like at the end like so like it has this weird kind of metatextual energy of like because I think I have watched it after he had died so like seeing him do that performance then was kind of spooky
01:47:43
Speaker
Well, I'll say right now, I'd love to do a podcast on killing them softly. That's a great movie. um you We're doing political films and that one, in case you don't understand what they're talking about, they show you Obama getting elected at the end. So they're like, Hey, this is so you're, and then Brad Pitt even just spells it out. He was like, America's a business. America is America. he has a whole like, this America's speech. If there was ever ah an Obama cinema film, you know, like just awfully, but,
01:48:12
Speaker
just by virtue of having Obama on the screen, it's an Obama film. But, uh, when it comes to, this situation in particular, having Gandolfini in this movie,
01:48:25
Speaker
Gandolfini is a powerhouse. He was always a great actor, right? Like Sopranos was great because Gandolfini was great. And you what watching this film does is remind you of how versatile he was. Like, obviously you bring up the whole, like, you know, you can hear a bit of the Italian mafioso come out in them a bit. And I agree with you. That is there. But that I also feel as though that would be in a crass general situation. in the military position. And and all of this feels... oh Oh, sorry, Doug, you're you're muted.
01:48:57
Speaker
Sorry. Like we were saying, like of how blunt and crass we we were seeing these people behave behind the scenes. Like how is, our especially compared to the American government now, like how are they much different from mobsters, you you know, like bullying people around, you know?
01:49:14
Speaker
and And even then, like Gandolfini's character is seen as like one of the good guys. He's one of the more noble ones because he's anti-war. It's like the the paradox of like he's ah you think he would be more hawkish. But from a character standpoint, you understand of like what he says, like,
01:49:34
Speaker
you know, if he's a soldier, you know, he was a soldier. That's the joke of like, Oh, you haven't killed someone in so long. You're even still a soldier, but it's that he still can't, he doesn't want all many. It's not just, yeah, they're never talking about the people in the middle East, the like cost of life of that. But, but just from the American troop perspective, a lot of people are going to die and you know, he like wants to avoid that for sure.
01:49:58
Speaker
Um,
01:50:01
Speaker
Good. Military hardware is impressive, General. no there's anymore like when he's first introduced Yeah, these together. this is the number combat troops available for invasion according to these
01:50:27
Speaker
I am shooting 12,000 troops, 12,000 troops, but that's not enough. That's the amount that are going to die. And at the end of a war, you need some soldiers left, really, or else it looks like you've lost. You muted yourself. She's making it kind of sexual. She's kind of going, like, you know, like... And it says 12. Yeah. Which is like 12,000. Like, no, 12. Yeah, of course 12,000. And that's one of the other best lines in the story. It's like, that's, you know, we need a lot more than that.
01:50:59
Speaker
like That's how many people are going to die. And ideally, you want you want some people left standing at the end of the war or else it looks like you've lost.
01:51:10
Speaker
Doug, I don't mean to, you know, put a pause quickly, but is it OK if we do a quick break? is Absolutely. Yeah, i I need to use the restroom. So, yeah, that's perfect. Before we go.
01:51:20
Speaker
Right. I'm going to send something here.
James Gandolfini's Range and Performances
01:51:25
Speaker
If you wanted to watch that, you know, something I can weigh in. like I can wait. I can wait. All right. So I've pulled up some important um photographic video evidence, you know, for us to watch and just to add some context for what we're about to watch. So this is ah from John Turturro's directed film. Yeah. romance and cigarettes, uh, starring James Gandolfini in the lead role. Um, and then also co-starring, Susan Sarandon, Kate Winslet, uh, Bobby Cannaval, uh, uh, cast. Um, I think that we should just, you know, press play at the same time.
01:52:04
Speaker
going to pull it up on my end. All right. Um, Make sure your timer is at zero. Yeah, we we don't have the sophisticated undertone technology to play. No, it's like that. So we we just have to synchronize.
01:52:17
Speaker
We have way. I and maybe in at editing, you can just like match it if you want to line up. Yeah. From the sequence. Three, two, one. We're going to hit play.
01:52:28
Speaker
Yep. Well, it's already great. You got James Gandolfini diegetically singing.
01:52:40
Speaker
and And to paint a picture, he's got like, I don't know, what do you call it? Like a pencil mustache? Like, like, kind of like, it's like a mustache that someone in like a 40s movie would have. It's something that a pervert would have. Let's be honest, you know. Well, in modern context, a pervert has it, but but it used to be classy.
01:53:00
Speaker
Oh, and here we go. We've got the garbage drivers, you know. Just just a beautiful, beautiful musical sequence. Because so guess I just need to see this movie.
01:53:12
Speaker
It's it's a movie worth watching. It is. It's because like to describe it for the audience, this is like the New Jersey dream. And you've got a lot of Spike Lee ah extras and co-stars in this sequence.
01:53:27
Speaker
Well, because, yeah, you already have the soprano New Jersey connection. and then, yeah, tutorials worked with Spike Lee. So I make sense that he would have know those guys. This is great. This is you've got the women throwing the baseballs. Yeah, because this it's not just him singing. It's like the whole block now. Like you have garbage men.
01:53:48
Speaker
ah ah this is And now you Bobby Cannavale singing into his water hose. Perfect. and and And also the inclusion of children, you know, like children who are singing along with it, too, and you can hear them in the vocals. It's perfect.
01:54:06
Speaker
Is the rest of the movie as good as the scene? I'm pleased to report. Yes, it is. and and And we're not even at the end of the sequence because we get a specific to Turo touch here because it wouldn't be just a musical, right?
01:54:20
Speaker
You also have moments of subtlety. You know, now we've got Gandolfini, you know, he's kind of looking around a bit. You know, it's silent. There's no music. Right. He's like, what?
01:54:31
Speaker
I'm in my own. I'm stewing around. You know, and he's pulling out a cigarette. It's like, I feel good right now. I could go for some romance with the cigarette. But out of nowhere, as he's lighting that cigarette, you know, the cameras panning around him, you know, trucking around.
01:54:48
Speaker
What are we going to see? This is the anticipation is mounting. And it's still going like it's one continuous motion around him. The sax comes in and when the dancers come back, we did a full 360 around him. There was no one in sight. And now there's ah Bobby Cannavale and some of the other dancers are now it's it's like jazzy.
01:55:09
Speaker
it And you got it you hear the the stiletto of a woman walking by. Look at that. And the sirens come in. Whoa.
01:55:20
Speaker
Romance of cigarettes. I need to fucking see this ASAP. It has like that. touch That has nothing on the amazing Susan Sarandon number that's in this movie. Susan Sarandon brings down the house at one point. Like, I got to say, this is a great. So are there other musical numbers or is it just that it's a musical?
01:55:38
Speaker
It's a musical. It's a straight up musical. Again, James Gandolfini, Kate Winslet, Susan Sarandon musical. It's a jukebox musical with popular songs not written for the film, but rather like pop hits that would fit within like the New Jersey dirtbags lifestyle.
01:55:55
Speaker
That's incredible. yeah It's a really good movie. I would really easily recommend it to like anybody. It's it's probably my favorite John Turow film, if we're being honest. ah I have seen every John Turow movie.
01:56:09
Speaker
Oh, including the, has he done, has he remade multiple French movies or is it just the one that's like the Jesus sequel or spinoff? There's, I know that's like a remake of a French movie.
01:56:21
Speaker
Slight correction. I believe it's an Italian film that they're making. I knew it was some pervert country. Yeah, exactly. No, Jesus Rolls is trying to be like an Italian sex comedy, right? So if you're familiar with those films, you will definitely know what to expect there.
01:56:37
Speaker
But when it comes to it being a sequel to The Big Lebowski, it's confounding because you definitely have some big actors. Bobby Cannavale shows up again. Susan Sarandon shows up again. But then you also have like Christopher Walken, I believe, in that film. Like you've got some other people in there. I want to choose to do it with that character, which ah Big Lebowski clearly establishes is a pederast. So, oh, but but in in Jesus roles, they immediately retcon it and say he wasn't.
01:57:04
Speaker
They're like, no, no, he was not a pedophile. like He was framed. Those kids lied. Yeah, they're like, no, no, no, he's just a normal adult man. Because John DeTuro is the director. And we can't have a movie without that, you know free, free Michael Jackson. Yeah. Well, well, John Turturro did make a movie with Woody Allen. We do have to ah call that out. You know, Fading Gigolo was a not only a send up of Woody Allen films, but it literally had Woody Allen in the film. Right, right.
01:57:36
Speaker
yeah yeah i forgot forgot about that i never saw it but i definitely remember that being a thing because this was already at the he was still i mean he's obviously what he ounce still he was always canceled me yeah yeah but this was like i feel like pretty openly like we all yeah everyone should have known better at this point Yeah, because what happened with Woody Allen right was like in the 90s, everybody was like, well, that's fucked up, and they pulled back a bit. He still kept making movies, and then like in the mid to late two thousand s everybody kind of like was like,
01:58:10
Speaker
eh, we'll let it go slide still, you know? And then like, he started getting nominated again and then like me to happen. And they were like, no more, you know, right they were like, stop this. You know, that was like right when Amazon started picking up his films and like a million people were in those. Um, but the period you're talking about, like, you know, that that's like what 2013 fading gigolo came out. Ironically the same year that James Gatolfini died. um you have, uh,
01:58:36
Speaker
this like, you know, agiography to Woody Allen in this, you know, movie, uh, fading gigolo and, uh, not more than three years later, he's, you know, out on the streets again, you know, and, and rightfully so, but it shows that, you know, so many of these people were so willing to rehabilitate that image.
01:58:57
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. ah Interesting, cho having this conversation right after I was watching, can't remember the comedian's name, Gianmarco something. I'm always seeing his clips online, but his podcast, Adam Friedland, was on this week. And there was a long discussion. I mean, I didn't get to the end, but most of the episode has been about Adam's Woody Allen fandom.
01:59:22
Speaker
yeah so So this is a crazy flex, and I do want to say this right now on mic, but I am mutuals with Gianmarco. a Fuck. Maybe we should get him on the pod. Maybe I should. Maybe I should send a quick DM, you know, you know, see what's going on. you know or I'll go on. I already forgot what the name of his was.
01:59:43
Speaker
ah Something. do You just remembered Adam Friedland, you know, like i mean that. That's why it showed up on my feed. Yeah, exactly. fair Yeah, yeah.
01:59:53
Speaker
um Yeah, no, um this this whole John Turturro thing was more so to get back at James Gandolfini, you know, to show in his range is exactly what he contained multitudes. Right. And I believe in the loop is a great example of that as well, because while they're are ah moments where you can see the Tony Soprano in him. His character is largely a soft sack, you know, like he's like very, you know, like, oh you know, like, let's not do that, you know, even though he's a military guy. And like, it's not. And he even says his dick can't get hard. So he's literally a soft yeah like like that's the opposite of Tony Swagger Soprano, who there was a moment when he's eating
02:00:36
Speaker
with with Liza and he just kind of like waves at her, you know, her staffer is like, oh, she's she's looking good. ah or he's eating with Susie and he waves at Liza. He's like, Liza's looking good and she looks like skewed out. But it's like if Tony Soprano did that panties off immediately like there it's happening from across the room. Right. yeah He's he says that she knows. Yeah. Right. she flies through the window like it's just it's just going to happen.
02:01:06
Speaker
It's in cartoons, you know, they smell the pie, right? And they float up on their feet, right? It's one of those things. But in this scenario, right, like there's a level of impetus, right? Like he's a lot of braggadocious behavior, right? Where he's he's saying these, you know, sexist things, right? And like, it's because he's this, you know,
02:01:29
Speaker
he is is talking more game than he actually has. Right. And Gandolfini is playing it well because not only do we see that swagger in him, but we also do see the unassuredness. I do feel like that's written on Gandolfini's face and in his posture, because even when anybody else is in the room with him, he's the biggest guy, but he still knows how to make himself seem small and stand off to the sidelines. That's an impressive factor in terms of Gandalfini is that he knows when to let other people around him also flourish, which you see constantly throughout this film.
02:02:04
Speaker
Which is a great point to illuminate of like, he's this anti-war general, but he can't do anything to stop this. No one can, but the fact that even someone with the rank and seemingly the pull that he would have in Washington has like no say in this matter. Like the machinery around it is just too big. Like that it's like, there's no, he has no levers to pull except to resign. Like that's his one move he has at the end. And then he doesn't even follow through mas with that. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, yeah, yeah Hollander also back ah backs out. Well, he's forced to to to to resign, but but he tries to back out. And I love that where he's like, ah where he tells him that he's changed his mind. He's like, oh, you're playing the role of the hawk? He's like, I'm more of a fake hawk.
02:02:52
Speaker
Is that possible? is it long those life Yeah. It was like, are are you a fake idiot or a real idiot? The the the the great thing about Gandolfini at the end of the film, not to wrap things up, but, you know, just chart out like their whole is that Gandolfini is, you know, at the end of the day, he's going to fall in line with whatever the State Department says, right? Like, he is anti-war on his face. He doesn't want that to happen. But at the end of the day, it it matters more for America to project strength, right? To pretend that it has that power, rather than actually wield it, right? Right. So he's in a position where he's like, well, I got to kind of go along with this thing rather than just, you know, drop out. Because if I drop out, then that's worse for America's force projection over all these other countries. So it's a very interesting calculated move because obviously a military person would do that. But then also, I think it's interesting in their modern context in the sense that like in a modern context, you know, people could quit right now during what's going on and it wouldn't change anything, you know, like, right. We're we're not so decorum focused anymore. You know, we're, you know, something like this is not going to be the game changer that it used to be. But also no one in this administration would even have the spine to make that, je even though it would just be a gesture. it They wouldn't do that either because they're all so desperately clinging to power, which is just what makes the Iannucci stuff. So evergreen is like that. It's.
02:04:27
Speaker
It's interesting because like there's critiques of towards the end of VP left to, I think, go make death of Stalin and then came back. So there's like the post-Trump being in power seasons. And some people feel like that ah either he wasn't fully tapped in or he didn't know how to to handle it. I feel like he...
02:04:48
Speaker
He did the only thing you could was just to escalate even further, you know, like just to ratchet it up even more because it's like it's like, OK, so if reality met where I was, my projections were that I have to go further.
02:05:00
Speaker
Exactly. I haven't seen Veep yet, to be clear. Right. I'm more of a succession guy, to be honest. and And succession clearly is a part of this because Jesse Armstrong, you know, made that series and he co-wrote this. Right. But but when it comes to. um this whole meeting the moment versus like what, how quaint it was back then. I think that's most represented in how all of the British stuff is handled in relation to this. Right. Because like the big point in of this film, we've alluded to this already, but we get this sequence where like Capaldi's character, it's like a dressing down from the American. Right. Yeah. did David Rashy. Yeah.
02:05:41
Speaker
you from secession, but a totally different character here. But like to see to see him like because he is the actual most powerful one in the film in terms of like getting this to happen. And it's kind of like for all Malcolm Tugger, Malcolm's like bark and bite like that.
02:05:59
Speaker
It does. The British have no say here. Like it's like you guys are coming along with us like that this is this war is happening. Like you can't stop this. Now, what ah like if let's say you're a British person watching this film,
British Political Influence and Careerism
02:06:14
Speaker
right? Like, I feel like that's the whole joke of this movie is like you get to this point and then it's revealed like all of this folly was in fraught because like the British people had nothing to do with this. And, you know, like they're just a vassal state, right? but The ultimate irony being that. like the only reason that they're going to war is because of what this British person said accidentally.
02:06:35
Speaker
Right. Right. The show that like it, all it takes is just this one person over here saying something. And then we're going to take that and we're going to make that the backbone of our movement. Right. um And ah this, ah this whole dressing down moment that we've talking about, it's like in this, you know, ah place of prayer, obviously used for, Well, move of what they're at the UN and it's like a plate ah yeah like you said ah a place of prayer. And David Rash even says, this is a sacred place. Now, I don't believe that and you don't believe that, but it's a powerful hypocrisy or something. Yeah.
02:07:11
Speaker
Just that classic, like American above it all, like because they pointed out hypocrisy, they're like, now I'm better. You know, like right I know that this is fucked up. So that means that I'm the one who's, you know, acting logical and just here, even though I'm a Republican stooge. I also like the contradiction of he doesn't swear. Like, you know, yeah he says saying shit. He says s star star T. It's like, so I'd be so annoying. I would just punch someone who did. that And the idea that that's the guy that Capaldi has been answering to this entire time, right? Capaldi, who we know is like ruthless, will do whatever it takes, right? And now the subordinates do whatever it takes to get the results that he needs, right?
02:07:54
Speaker
And at the end of the day, once since it what's it in service for? It's in service of the American government rather than anything for British people, rather than anything, you know, locally. He's just helping these, you know, international conflicts move slightly further because this guy wants it that way. Not because they need to, not because they believe in a war in the Middle East, but because this guy knows it will be better for his career in America. And hopefully all the people around him can make it work. And this guy just does it because he knows that he needs to answer these orders. Yeah.
02:08:27
Speaker
Even though it will be bad for the, british you know, like just for, you know, the real Rack War. I mean, it's like, you know, there's what they call the coalition of the willing. So British, british sold there were British troops. Like, you know, this doesn't this didn't happen in a vacuum.
02:08:42
Speaker
ah And this, yeah, it it was bad for everyone all around. But like the fact that this, the weight of... Like you but you mentioned, compared it to Christopher Guess, and it's interesting that can walk the line of like, it does have like hangout movie vibes, but the state, you also don't lose ah like sight of the fact that the stakes is like lots of people are going to die because of these people's actions. Like that. that And I mean, for in from hindsight, it's like millions, a lot of people died in the Iraq. for sure.
02:09:17
Speaker
It was a lot of within like Iraq specifically, like it was a million people who died. Right. Like it was something like that. Yeah. easy um And when it comes to the American losses, it certainly was high as well. Right. And ah that doesn't even touch like British, Canadian, what have you, ah servicemen and women who went over a fight in a meaningless war.
02:09:39
Speaker
Um, but ultimately the the humor that's being driven is that all of these people who are getting this thing pushed across to meet the finish line are these people who personally will never be close to that war and don't have any kind of, know, You know, like they they they don't want ownership of it, but they want the best ownership of it. Right. Right. They don't want to be known to be the person who did it, but they want the good part of the blame. and And a lot of the way that this film ends is about like letting where the chips lie and who of these people were betting on the right horse rather than any kind of political strategy. And ah what I find interesting as well is let's pull back a bit because there's this great sequence that we get between Capaldi and Gandolfini, right? Which is like this movie's heat moment, right? Yeah. Like you've got these two amazing actors, right? Just like pit against one another. And like, ah like there's no real in plot reason for them to be.
02:10:38
Speaker
Other than it's fucking cool. Yeah. Yeah. to have Capaldi and Gandolfini like go at it. It's just having two dogs bark at each other. Right. He calls him General Flintstone.
02:10:50
Speaker
so Perfect. Perfect. like and And it has to be said that I get like a little bit of behind the scenes research i did in this movie, because obviously a lot of this movie is improvised. Right. They said that like ah they would just let these actors go. And one of the only times they ever broke was in that exchange where Capaldi felt threatened by Gandolfini and they had to stop Tick because he thought that Gandolfini actually was going to hurt him.
02:11:16
Speaker
I mean, just his body language of like, you he's like we've said, he's the biggest guy in the room physically. and he does kind of a similar thing in in Sopranos episodes where he'll just kind of like be looking at someone and you hear the heavy breathing. And it's like so scary because you're like, yes, this man wants to rip your head off right now.
02:11:39
Speaker
Gandolfini is like a vessel, right? Like Gandolfini is like you can feel every part of him moving when he is acting right. And there's a power that comes behind that. Like you can feel like he shifts his shoulder and he he sits in a different posture. You're like, that's a he did that on purpose. And like he's doing that for a fucked up reason. Capaldi is all in the way he delivers lines like the right.
02:12:05
Speaker
Capaldi, he like will stay in one position. He'll he'll jut his neck out a little bit. You'll see his veins. Yeah. And and and he's just shouting right like just straightforward. Like he's a very still actor versus Gandolfini, who's very posture driven. And I think that that's a very strong, you know, counterbalance to one another. And we haven't talked about Capaldi a lot because Gandolfini is, ah you know, i like I feel like more beloved and more impressive in certain ways. But Capaldi is such a fantastic actor with this dialogue. Like this dialogue is like, like he was born to do this. and And yet he's known for being Doctor Who, right? Like he's he this is his lane, in my opinion.
02:12:49
Speaker
Well, I mean, as someone who really likes those seasons, that's part of, like, what was fun about, you know, because it's it's the elasticity of the character allows you to be like, oh, this is going to be, like, a much, like, an angrier, bit more bitter Scottish doctor. So, like, like but yeah, so, like, I really, I really enjoy his his take on that But, like, seeing him just fully let loose here. and like we said, like, that he's mostly all of this...
02:13:19
Speaker
power, quote, quote, that he seems to be willinging wielding is in service of, of nothing that, you know, is good for the British people. But then he really doesn't even answer to the Prime Minister, it's to the Americans and like that, that When ah David Rashid gives him that dressing down and then Toby's there in the room and then all he has because he's this is like the one moment of impotence for him. he has to then like lash out at at Toby. And you can see him trying to come up with like recover and come up with like some kind of threats to him. He's like, it's like like your your collarbone or something. I'll fucking break it and stab you with it.
02:14:00
Speaker
If we're talking about the threats in this movie, we do have to talk about Capaldi's subordinate who's going to Toby's ex, right? When he goes to like meet with them and he's like, I heard you leaked it from this store. We've tracked your IP. Oh, yeah. from This fax machine. Beats down the fax machine like it's like a a Scorsese movie beat down. Oh, don't come over all fucking Spartacus on his nose. I leaked it.
02:14:28
Speaker
Michael, what are you doing? Wait, hang on, hang on, for start! Turn that fucking racket off! Turn it off? It's just vowels! Subsidised foreign fucking vowels!
02:14:40
Speaker
The only reason you listen to this shit is because it's bad form to actually wear hat that says I went to private school! So tell me now, right?
02:14:50
Speaker
Who did you leak it to? I just sent it. I read it, I thought it was important. Good! Fine, fine. See that fax? Yeah? Yes. That is your career and I think it might be fucked, but let's just check.
02:15:05
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, that's pretty fucked. Now, I hope you can play the spoons, because you're too old to going back to being a gentleman's fluffer, aren't you? Like someone, someone getting me just stomping on it.
02:15:16
Speaker
oh, this fax machine. It'd be a shame if something would have happened to this fax machine. And he starts kicking it in. Right? Like, it's just perfect. Like, it's it's better than office space. Right? yeah Where, like, you know, like office space, it's like all, like, we're beating up this fax machine. Is that crazy? Like, this is like, like you said, it's like ah a gangster shakedown. Right? Like, it's like, No, no, please. And the fact that the leak, they know the leak did it. When he went into the room, he knew the leak wasn't from there and it wasn't from a fax machine. It was an email. And how casually he lets that. He's like, yeah, it was so from an email. It was just, you know, the fax was there.
02:15:52
Speaker
So he had to make a point. and And I love the guy that ah Toby's girlfriend works for, right? Who's always listening to opera.
02:16:02
Speaker
Oh, man. And it it's just fucking vowels. It's just. Oh, you know, it's just. Staged subsidized vowels. and and I love when when they when the fax machine is being broken and he's just like I did it like he's like he's like it's this big like weight you know like yeah and he even calls it I was like this is a Spartacus moment mate
02:16:29
Speaker
Oh, man. like I also love when Toby's getting kicked out because we haven't talked about the fallout of him coming back from Washington. Yes, we haven't. He just he just leaves his phone there when they're at the at the pub. Rookie mistake. Yeah, rookie mistake, especially if you're sticking around. like Don't do that. So she immediately figures out that he slept with Liza. And his recovery line of like, he's just like, I just thought in the midst of all this that maybe we could put a stop to this all over.
02:16:59
Speaker
like they fuck for peace They're like well some kind of ah you like treaty. Yeah, like like they're trying to like to figure it out, like at the at the table. I love the sequence when he goes back to get his stuff and she's like, like talking him about the entire time. Yeah. And then Michael folds his clothes for him where he's just like throwing them in a bag.
02:17:27
Speaker
He's like, he's like, I'm not thinking about it from his case because he's like, well, it's going to down the line, you know, affect the wrinkle of the shoes. I'm not thinking about that. I'm being kicked out of my house right now. Right. And and that's what's even better is in that moment. Right. Like he he's like breaking up with his ex and he's like, here's this USB with all the stuff to leak. And it's because he is too cowardly to leak it himself. He needs his ex-girlfriend to leak it. No one wants to be the one to leak it because like the Gandolfini even floats when he's talking to the senator. He's like, yes, it'd be great if someone leaked it. And she's like, when you want to leak this? And he's like, don't, you know, like they don't want to be the one to pull the pin, you know, because they're careerists, you know, like this could blow up in their face. Like, They quote, unquote, know it's the right thing to do. But then the irony of it comes out, the report comes out, but heavily edited and like doctored to be because like after he gets that dressing down by David Rasche, he is like, OK, so we're going to release put put, but we're just editing it and like deleting the whole anti-war argument section. then the fact that Michael won't do it. And then he's like, here, let me try a manual override. He picks up his hand and just hits the Oh, look at that. It's just all going away. Like, it's just like, you know, just hitting that great moment. Right. And I love all of this because it's again, it's pushing all of this to its inevitable conclusion where all this stuff needs to come to head. But then in the background, you know, there's all this stuff that's kind of billowing up. And we have only referenced once, but I want to bring him up again. But Steve Coogan, you know, he's got this great Coogan.
02:19:17
Speaker
uncredited i believe in the movie itself like that's a flex like it's like it's it's a stack cash you'd be like i'm people know who i am they don't need to and also like i if i i may or may not be right but i feel like armando iannucci had some kind of hand in the allen partridge stuff like oh it's like maybe a producer of some kind or Perhaps I could be getting that wrong. Perhaps one of the other people who was a part of this film um had Alan Partridge connections. But he this is him at the height of his Partridge power. I mean, like, I mean, yes, so makes his PP, if you will. Yeah.
02:19:57
Speaker
Yes. No, I'm seeing here that Ianucci had directed some episodes of Alan Partridge like in the 90s and OK, so so, yeah, there's there's the connection. and and And Steve Coogan, he's showing up here. He's got like ah a beanie on and he's got a mustache. So you can't really recognize him. But it's this idea that like, ah you know, he's a council member within like a district. And like there's this old lady who has a greenhouse that's next to this wall that's being supported by beams. that are pushing against the wall. And he's like, well, this house, the wall is going to come down any day now. And he's pushing into his mom's yard. Like, like the, the, the, the wall. so So the wall thing keeps like kind of, they, they bring it up when he know, he has to meet with his the constituency, but then it's like in the background and fight he like gets an update on it.
02:20:48
Speaker
It's at the same moment after Rashi like eviscerates Capaldi and then the Hollander gets the update about the wall that it's come down Rashi's like, good good, that sounds like something you guys do. Like, it get get right on that.
02:21:05
Speaker
yeah It's this idea that like when everything is failing, he goes back to that position. Right. And we hear about that first when he has to go back to that position.
02:21:18
Speaker
Right. And in this climax, we're still hearing about this fucking wall in the middle of like escalation in the Middle East. And ah what also another sequence I love is Capaldi talking to that one bald member, right? Who has to keep going back into the, like delay of the UN vote. Oh, the the ambassador who's like, that because there's the bit of like, they don't,
02:21:41
Speaker
before they are trying to suppress quip quip. So they're like, let's delay the vote. And then when it decides, no, we're going to go along with the leak. We're just going to put ours version out faster. He's like, move up the vote. So he has to just the cut to him, like him, him being like, I will not debase myself again. And you just cut to him walking. Like we don't see what he says to convince everyone or like what his speech is. It's just the idea of him having to grovel and come in and like,
02:22:09
Speaker
Like just how embarrassing that would be. well Well, like you you kind of alluded there, like it's the idea that like he first moves it up because they're worried about the leak coming out. So like he needs to get ahead of that to get the vote across. So he moves the meeting up ahead. Like, I think it's like 30 minutes or like an hour and a half. And then Capaldi is like, oh, no, we got to push it back further. and he has to go back in there and push and delay it by an extra two hours from the original meeting time. So it's like, yeah, because you moved it up.
02:22:41
Speaker
Yeah. another another behind the scenes thing I heard was that the only reason we didn't get more of that sequence was because they didn't have the funding to like show that entire sequence like that. jump played out Again, another one of those things where it's like, you know, like the Jaws shark, right? Like, it's great because we don't have it, you know? Right. It's better that way, us not seeing it. Other Capaldi moments that are great is when he has a meeting at the White House because there's a joke about how young everyone in Washington is. And then he meets with, I really like this character actor, Johnny Pemberton, who's had a perpetual, as someone who has baby face, I can sympathize because this guy is in his 40s.
02:23:25
Speaker
forty s He's older than my brother. like This guy was born in 1981, but he like looks like he's in his he's been playing people in his 20s or younger for like the past like couple decades. so like He's just like a really young congressman.
02:23:40
Speaker
ah that Capaldi has to meet with. And it's just like a further insult of like, that this is who you like have are having me meet with, like with this child. And then and then he gets a great joke at the end when ah like David Rash, he's like overseeing the list of movies that the the troops could see. He's like, why is I Heart Huckabees on the list of all the movies? Oh my God.
02:24:05
Speaker
I knew this joke would get to you, Doug. I knew it. I was i was joke dying. They wrote it for me. it was the higher Huckabee's catching strays. I think he calls like a self-indulgent trash or something. He's like, that is no place being seen by our troops.
02:24:20
Speaker
And then what I loved was that there's a a particular long take on Gandolfini's face when all this is happening, as if to infer that Gandolfini's character was the one who recommended I Heart Huckabees. I just love that whole sequence. And then also to get back to Capaldi a bit, I wanted to draw this line.
02:24:39
Speaker
um I feel as though that especially in the last act of the movie, there's supposed to be a direct line between Toby and Capaldi's character in this. Right. Because like we see how Toby, after he's kind of like, you know, upended by this whole one night stand, he's running to that meeting. Right.
02:24:57
Speaker
You know, clothes be damned, whatever. Right. And we get that from Capaldi at the end. And what I think this film is telling us is that like Toby's trajectory is a Capaldi, right? Like the best that Toby can hope for is to become that, right? But even when you reach that level, which seems aspirational, you're still doing grunt work. like you that The like dirty work for America.
02:25:21
Speaker
Right. you're You're still just an errand boy. Mm-hmm. You're somebody's some somebody else's, somebody else's, somebody else's bitch boy, right? Like yeah like yeah there's a level of abstraction to where you are fitting in this ah level where you are having some kind of impact on this world. And we've talked a bit about like, you know, how this thing is pushing forward, but I think that something that we should also comment upon is how all of these people want to have some impact on the world. They all are saying constantly how they want to change the world or like how they want to leave their impact. Yeah. And it doesn't seem like they have any kind of understanding of how they want to do that. Like they're more interested in just doing that plainly. And, and, you know, like, oh, we're going to change the world rather than like change the world for the better or worse. Like they, they see themselves as a part of the fabric of history, but they're moving things in a unhealthy direction, not recognizing the fact that they're a part of the problem.
02:26:12
Speaker
they want their name to be known like in the annals of history, but it's going to be associated. It's going to have blood all over it because it's associated with this awful
Resignations and Political Power Dynamics
02:26:21
Speaker
thing. And like, no one's clean of it. Even the ones who think that they can maybe get out, uh, dignified, guess, uh, Susie actually does resign, right? She doesn't, she's the one, only one who falls through on it. Yeah. But I also love that line when they're talking Hollander into resigning with them or telling that they're just going to say that he quit And that he doesn't have a choice. Like, I love his breakdown towards the end, because like, he's like, no, you don't get to this. I'm me. I decide all the things about me, you know, like you like the fact that like you can't even make your own career decisions of like whether you're staying or going like the Americans have decided for you that this is the time. And then even when he seems to have ducked that because, you know, Capaldi's like, oh, you don't have to resign anymore at the end.
02:27:13
Speaker
He still is forced to step down because of the law. Like the fact that Capaldi uses that is so is so good. And then because of an issue, he's being so. Yeah, he's just being dismissive. I was like, it's just a wall. or so He's like, it's not just a wall. Yeah. And and and the and the fact that Capaldi's like, the prime minister just told me that this is like, you have to go over this, even though they've been standing there the whole time. He's like, no, you haven't. You did not talk to the prime minister. And what's the lie? Capaldi says he's like, whether or not it happened is irrelevant. It's true. Yeah. Yep.
02:27:48
Speaker
See, it's it's another situation because like Capaldi, he's got like the veins in his neck. He's he's bulging at every he looks like he's falling apart. Right. But he's saying these things to these people and they just have to just accept it. Right. And and he like you you've talked about like him being like this, like menacing, you know, he's really the grim reaper. Right. Like he's really the person who's coming in. He's like, you've got to do this because the site has come down on this direction. and And when it comes to Hollander, he's he's the fall guy from the start of this movie. We know that there's no way that he's coming out of this unscathed. The minute he opens his mouth, he's doomed.
02:28:22
Speaker
Yeah. and And like everything that he's done up until this point has just been buying himself some time. This whole like climbing the ah ladder of escalation or whatever. Right. He's going to be remembered in this moment for, you know, saying that and then he's going to disappear just like a Liz Truss or what have you. Right. And ah when it comes the American ah escalation, all this stuff has just been in service of giving them a reason to go into this space and to fight, you know? Right. So and the thing that you were talking about, which character was the one, the American who ended up ah resigning?
02:28:58
Speaker
ah Susie. Susie. So no, no. Is it Karen? Maybe Mimi Kennedy. Hold on. I just want to get it right, you know?
02:29:11
Speaker
No. Yeah, you're right. I've been saying to it is it is maybe Kennedy. oh yeah We got it. Kennedy as Karen. Right. and So ah Karen, like she is the one who has obviously been closest with Gandolfini and she thought that she was going to be, you know, ah resigning with him essentially and the thing about it it's like we talked early on about how this film is you know absent of labeling politics she's clearly the democrat right like she's clearly like a democrat and uh the other guy is a republican Gandolfini is a republican by nature by being a military general right and like at the end of the day he's going to follow down to party lines because ultimately Like, it doesn't matter that they slept together. and And him saying that whole, like, you know, we slept together one time, he reminded me that, that's him rejecting, like, his own happiness.
02:30:00
Speaker
Right. Like, feel like Gandolfini is happier with her, like, openly flirting rather than the alternative. Yeah, because he was kind of I mean, he's not wearing a tie, but he would if he even did, he'd be loosing in it in the scenes where he gets to kind of like vent to her, like, you know, and when yeah they're plotting and stuff like that, like that. He obviously feels more comfortable ah doing that than being in a room with David Rashi planning what movies the troops can and can't watch.
02:30:29
Speaker
Yeah.
Conclusion and Political Satire Themes
02:30:31
Speaker
i guess we're kind of winding down the film right because like all this stuff is just happening it has to happen at this point like there's nothing these people have done they've set it into motion and it's been in motion this entire time and this has been kind of like grasping at straws of what little bits that they'll have their names attached to the person who uh wrote uh like Lizzie right like she's seen as an architect for this because they censored all of the stuff that she was supposed to be saying so in and in a way she's like a part of why America and and Britain is evading she like has some kind of clout from that but like she's still seen as an idiot for putting them in this position right that's why you got the whole office guy still kind of rubbing in his her face and we've got everybody else just kind of falling to the wayside this is when we start to get like the post credit scene sequence yeah which is a thing that uh veep and then i'm i'm i'm pretty sure in the think of it continues this thing where like the the ah credits will appear but then we still are seeing scenes play out which aren't they're not like teeing the scenes aren't teeing up anything it's kind of just like speaking to what you're saying of like that this is just every day This business it goes on, continues. And like, that's what we're seeing of like and Hollander got sacked, but his replace his replacement comes in and she makes some kind of joke about the war or something like it like soon as she comes in, it's like, oh, my God.
02:31:54
Speaker
cheese But but but but i do want to say, like, I'm not trying to be like, you know, ah painting with a broad brush here, but there's a really ah Thatcher ah energy to her. Right. like she's Absolutely. An image to her. Right. And she's got, yeah you know, like there's a level of artificiality to her. Right. I'm not saying anything to demean that.
02:32:15
Speaker
small actor or character whatever. No, I think that's an intentional styling choice too. Cause like, I feel like even down to like how they're having her hair and stuff like is kind of trying to it's like almost like a more modernized of like, yeah, no, this is the Thatcher now. Like this is the form it's evolved into.
02:32:32
Speaker
And then you get like her assistant who comes in and takes Toby's seat. Right. And Toby just is forced to move further down in the office shuffle. Right. And this is after ah that moment that we get of Toby being like, oh, let's have one more shag with Lizzie. Right. Like, let's do like one more, you know, for the road. You're a woman and I'm not a woman. Yeah. Oh, we we forgot to call out my favorite line in this movie, which is when ah Toby is talking to Hollander and he goes, ah ah difficult, difficult, lemon, difficult. And ah and then Hollander says it like during the meeting with no context. Like it's it.
02:33:17
Speaker
I love that. Like that is a line that I do say in but in like regular conversation, the whole easy peasy lemon squeezy. Yeah, I said I love doing that. It's funny. Difficult, difficult lemon difficult. It reminds of a thing I love in I feel like Coen brothers do this all the time where a character will quote another character, but like in a diluted form sometimes like they don't get the quote right.
02:33:39
Speaker
Like because they didn't really retain it or didn't understand the original context. So and like and just just just him tripping over his own words again, like he can't say anything. Right.
02:33:50
Speaker
Also, we've already talked about the scene where Gandolfini and that senator Karen are, you know, saying they all got to resign. But I love when he's like, you need like a suicide bomber. And he's like, no, a suicide bomber makes a choice. yeah like saying like Like you're so spineless, like you're not making this decision. We're forcing you to do it. Exactly. Like a lot of this movie is so much about like how the mechanism is going to continue. Right. Rather than like anybody making any conscious decision. And and and like I said it earlier on in this podcast, this movie can be very rather complex. Right. But if you let this film wash over you, it's very easy to follow. Like like the threads are very clear and all of the kind of hubbub and the
02:34:38
Speaker
what they're saying and what their intentions are, it becomes very easy to see when you just kind of let it wash over you and you're like, okay, here's what these things are. I'm not saying this from like a dumb filmmaker, a film watcher, you know, perspective. I'm saying this from like a, this is a constructed film that's showing you that all of the complexity is smoke and mirrors. Like it's just, this is fun. We're having fun here. Yeah.
02:35:00
Speaker
I feel like that's... Ian Nucci is good at that, but I feel like that's also like a Jesse Armstrong, like, ah ace in his... ah Because in Secession, it gets... of like I've heard people say that they don't want to watch this show because all the business talk or something or finance or your words will will, like, kind of scare them. I'm like, that doesn't matter. In fact, the show is kind of about, like, what you just said of showing that it's all smoke and mirrors because it's like, yeah this is this is all...
02:35:29
Speaker
bullshit and made up anyway. So like, like, that they're, they're pulling it out of their ass. Like the fact, like, there's no like, actual standard they're operating by they just like, in the context of succession, they're just on the spot deciding what is a good number for a deal based on ego, usually, you know, it's like, ah this number amount of money is, you know, not insulting to me, you know, like, ah so I'll take it. But you know, it's it's not, it's not like about like,
02:35:58
Speaker
what we've, you know, the bean counters have like figured out, like this is what it's valued at It's more just like it, ah it's a pissing contest. Oh, for sure.
02:36:09
Speaker
Right. and And surprisingly, I have to say, ah Jesse Armstrong had nothing to do with death of Stalin. Right. Like, like he was off on succession land by that time. Right. um But the interesting thing is is that in this movie in particular, it feels truly like a melding of those sensibilities. Right. Right. Yes. um Like, I don't feel as though Armstrong or Iannucci are like stronger than one another. They just have different, you know, impulses. And and certainly I would say that Mountainhead was a disaster. Like I'd say that that movie kind of sucked. Right. There's things I like about it, but it doesn't. ah It just seems like that he's not fully there, at least in the medium of.
02:36:54
Speaker
of film as a director. Like, he could he he's a great writer, but I think it in shows with ah Death of Stalin that Ian Nucci seems to be... Because, like, that's a more cinematic movie than this, than In the Loop. That's totally true.
02:37:10
Speaker
they They have... so I mean, they have similar senses of humor and sensibilities, but, like, that... This this could, at a glance, if you're walking through the room, be like, oh is this a TV episode? My mom thought I was watching Veep initially. i mean, one of the actors is in there. so like But like it kind of it it looks it looks like tv a little bit, you know?
02:37:29
Speaker
And I do feel like that whole like Larry Sanders succession, you know, that that whole style of filming that is in this show, in this movie, right? Ironically called it a show. I feel like it's very common with television, right? Especially now this whole like fly on the wall kind of thing. And there's this like ah we haven't talked about there was this movie called The Personal History of David Copperfield. I remember it premiering at TIFF. It stars Dev Patel. It's like a fictional film told in the standard, you know, narrative fiction style um that was directed by Armando Iannucci. Doesn't seem like it's a particular satire either. Right. Like it it seems like he did that.
02:38:12
Speaker
But that was the last fictional feature he's done in 2019. Yeah, i haven't seen i have I haven't seen that one. ah And yeah, his TV, I heard mixed things about ah Avenue 5. I watched like a few episodes of it. I didn't take to it, but I don't know if that's and indicative of its quality. Because like, it seemed like some of the satirical qualities I liked were there. And it's got like a good, you know, like, ah Zach Woods is, you know, back and you got Hugh Laurie. mean, Josh Gad is there, but his character is supposed to be annoying so it kind of cancels out where you're like yeah okay well that's good casting I guess you know I'm i'm annoyed good job
02:38:55
Speaker
I feel like Iannucci needs to go back to basics, right? Iannucci needs to go back to British politics, right? He needs to go back to talking about right now. I would love Iannucci to do a Liz Truss film. I brought up her name already, right? I think Liz Truss is prime for the film treatment, right? Similar to like Elizabeth Holmes, right? She would be an amazing anti-hero to make a movie about or a show about or something. And Armando Iannucci would be the person to do it. when it comes to this whole like ah cinema verite, you know, fly on the wall kind of thing um that like Jesse Armstrong, you know, G and company have kind of created with this film. I wish that it was a little more focused and that we were getting more moment satire. Right. Because like we haven't talked about it at all on this podcast, but have you seen Four Lions?
02:39:48
Speaker
No, no, that's on my list for forever. I really need to see that. Maybe we should just put four lions on the books. like i for i'm I'm good on that. Yeah.
02:39:59
Speaker
Yeah, let's do let's do that. look I'd be so down because ah four lions is is it's literally about suicide bombers, like based on what we just talked about. Right. They make a choice. that'd be Perfect.
02:40:10
Speaker
Right. ah Yeah, that sounds great. Yeah, I've been wanting to see that forever. i was just looking at Iannucci's IMDb. Apparently he was a writer on the stage adaptation of Dr. Strangelove where Coogan is doing the multiple roles in it. That makes a lot of sense. sounds Good.
02:40:28
Speaker
Like that actually does sound good. Like the casting sounds good. And then also Iannucci straight. Like I was not that they're like the same movie, but I was thinking straight any. I feel like once a political satire crosses a certain threshold of quality, that strange level just enter my mind. no but I think that you're on the money there, too, because like what so much of what strange love is about is about like.
02:40:52
Speaker
Strange love isn't about like people who are power hungry, who are just like making these decisions to move their career forward. It's so much about like people who can't let their inner desires be withheld. Right. Right. It's like their their prime desires and their mental illness like. makes them lash out in these ways that destroys humanity, right? And and the inevitability of that, because because it's like, that at that point, like in that movie, especially on every rewatch, it's like, yeah, they were never stopping that plane. Like, you know, like it was it was never, this is a foregone conclusion, just like in this, where it's like, yeah, the war is going to happen. You you just, a British minister sped it up by opening his mouth. Yeah.
02:41:36
Speaker
I mean, it's antiquated now, I guess, because, you know, there's like a U.N. n vote and everything they have to do. You don't need to through NATO. You don't need to all that. You don't need the fucking vote on a war now. you just can tweet and decide. Wake up. You just wake up. be like, I want I want to do a war. And then you do it.
02:41:54
Speaker
So that's how we. This Iranian school had a bunch of Iranian leaders in it. Definitely not a lot of Iranian school children. We're going to bomb it.
02:42:05
Speaker
going to kill a lot of Iranian leaders. There was a Kemeni pun in this movie at one point. There was. When they were talking about, like, ah because no one had, like, seen the intel are all quip-pip, and they were trying to, I think it was David Rash, he was trying to obfuscate, like, what was in it. he was like, ah the senator's like, did did you say that ah it could be a possible Kemeni situation? like, oh, it could be a lot of words. ah Kansas City, Kitty. Like, he's just...
02:42:35
Speaker
and And that's something else sorry I wanted to talk about a bit, too, because like this movie purposely keeps the country that they're talking about obscure. And I think that in the time period, it would make a lot of sense to just think that this is Iraq. But I do think that there is some degree in which you could read this as Iran. I think that you can read this as an escalation within the Middle East region of the era. Like Iraq has already happened and this is just the next stage.
02:43:04
Speaker
you're 100 100 like that's the way i read this movie i mean and because it's not like it's not like trump invented the idea of doing this like the people in bush's cabinet have uh had boners for iran for i mean even pre-bush they've wanted this but like this this this is this has been a lot the the powers that be military industrial complex and and state department have won and been wanting to demolish this country for a while so like it's i mean it kind of sadly is it has like that feeling of like mean don't want to say inevitable because it's horrible that it's happening now and the all these you know the support people but it's like yeah they finally got what they wanted i guess you know like fucking just it took it took multiple decades but like they they fucking babe roofed it you know you just point to the stands
02:44:02
Speaker
To go to go off of that point, right? It's like all this stuff is inevitable. It's about who is going to get the ah bragging rights of the person who did it. Right. And then even then it's like, is that something that's worth holding on to? Like, is that something like, do you want to be known as the person who did that?
02:44:20
Speaker
Right. And I think that a lot of this movie is about like, you know, like a lot of these people coming in terms with whether or not the fact that they do want to be known as that. Because there's no good way to go to war. Like, that that's just like, it's just a play like, regardless if if you're going through the proper channels, and even if they didn't falsify intel, even if it was all in good faith, and everything was above board and honest, it's still fucking evil. Like, it's war. Like,
02:44:47
Speaker
and And it showed like to go back to the post credit sequences. Right. Like it's important to show that Judy still has her job the exact same way. Right. Like Judy is making it forward because she was competent within making all of this stuff function in a, you know, normal sense. Right. She kept the trains running on time.
02:45:05
Speaker
like the Nazis. um And the the the the ultimate irony is, is that the people who are, you know, in charge of keeping the train on track, they keep their jobs. The people who shake things up, they're the people who push things forward, but they lose their jobs because they're liability. But they ultimately push the things that they wanted through anyways.
02:45:25
Speaker
So it's like at the end of the day, all of this stuff is like, well, it needed to happen because we wanted this to happen anyways, but we just hated that it happened in this way. Right, which is then the whole Democrat hypocrisy of like a lot of you these.
02:45:41
Speaker
They're not anti war. They're just anti that it's happening this way from this guy. Like if if this is if Kamala started or in the Middle East, a lot of these people would be cheering it on. And for sure, it's gross. Yeah.
02:45:57
Speaker
Well, like Karen's supposed to be like the Democrat, right? The idea that she is the one who resigns. Like, I think that it makes sense within a 2008 perspective, 2009 perspective, I should say, because like this is like John Kerry, Barack Obama kind of right. Right. Like that transition.
02:46:18
Speaker
And like there is that kind of like, do we capitulate to right way framing? Do we do their own thing kind of thing? And like she's kind of in between that area. And I do feel that in the way that she's performed. i do think that that's true to that time period Democrat. um I mean, that helps us age well, though, because like kind of that's like that's like the failure of well Obama being so middle of the road because like he admits of like that he, you know, went more moderate and like because he like had some insane vision of, you know, ah ah reaching across party lines and that that that would be more possible or he would be judged more. Like he said this directly in relation to like, you know, drone bombings and stuff of like that if he went light on the Middle East, that the Republicans would have called him weak. And it's like, dude, they're going to call you a fucking Muslim terrorist regardless of what you do. That's like going to call you ever anything. The problem is that Obama was the first Sorkin president, right? Like he was the first one who, like, you know, took that stuff too close to heart.
02:47:25
Speaker
And was like, you know what? we're going he thought He thought that was reality. If you were like so yeah carried yourself with dignity and you like spoke well, that like you could make the good thing happen. And and yeah, no they're just gonna They're just going to call you what they wanted. i mean That's why now when the party is always like, ooh, yeah, we we don't want, we want, don't to lose the middle of the country. We don't want to like appear to, to the left, like that anyone would ever accuse them of that. But like, I'm like, they're going to call you baby killing communists anyway. So like, let's like, let's just be calm. Just do it. Right. Why why shouldn't we have Hassan Piker on our podcast is what you're saying. I get it. I understand. And I do agree with you. Hassan Piker, please come on our podcast. Hassan, come on. Yeah.
02:48:13
Speaker
Yeah, we're we're big fans. Come on. we're Come on. But the it's this idea that, like, you know, pushing left too much. It's dangerous. Right. In the context of in the loop, that question is out the window.
02:48:27
Speaker
Everybody there is operating under a neoliberal framework, right? And they accept their ah punishment because they know that it has to be that way, but it's because they have no imagination of a better system. And I think that that's kind of the beauty beauty of this movie, right? Is that like, ah similar to Strange Love, it's all going downhill, right? The bomb's going to hit the target, but at the same time, they're gripping on to whatever jobs going have left. This is not the end of the world. for them. Right. The nuke is not landing, right? It's just a matter of like, it's just another day for them. They get to go to work tomorrow and, and then decide ah some help, some other awful thing come to fruition. And everything just gets a little worse for everybody else. Right. And that's the ultimate humor.
02:49:13
Speaker
That's incrementalism. hours And that and that right there is why in the loop is such a perfect movie, like not a perfect, perfect movie. But, you know, like, you know, i mean, but it's right for what it's doing right for for what it's setting up. I think this movie has aged fantastically. You know, it's it's it's managed to maintain relevancy because it so accurately takes all these things. The only part of this movie that feels like it's aged weirdly is this whole reveal of the
02:49:43
Speaker
the brits Brits being a vassal state. I feel like that's a lot more clear these days. I feel like most people know that now, you know, i feel like and it would feel more. we it is clear now, but I feel like that was the time, like, like kind of during a Iraq in the lead up to that is that where it was made so clear and overt, you know, like where it's basically just like Tony Blair fellating Bush on live TV. but I mean, do they yeah, that's what it felt like.
02:50:14
Speaker
Well, it's it's the same with any Western hegemonic power, right? Like speaking you from a Canadian perspective, having Stephen Harper in power as all this stuff was going on, right? Like this is a situation where, you know, any colonial power that's tangentially related to America was just blindly a part of it because they thought that that was the right thing to do. And now we're in a position where You know, like, like, let's just be blatant, right? We're recording this on April 1st. I haven't looked at my phone at all, but apparently Trump is doing a address to the nation today at nine. Right. And apparently he's supposed to be addressing about going to war with Iran. Right. Who knows if I'm right or not? Like I can pull my phone and confirm that or not. I've avoided looking like, but yeah, that's that. It does seem like that this is going to become a ground war, which is. Which has troubling implications, not just like fucking a war crime, the legal war, but then also where are they getting the people for this? Because like this movie points out, you need a lot of people to throw conflict. mean, like it's always been.
02:51:21
Speaker
you know, people like they'll never bring back the draft. They'll never bring it back. But all the things that you're never supposed to do or can't do, he's like, people still act like that. There's like some line that he won't cross, you know, like that. So I, I, I'm not saying I'm ah expecting that announcement tonight, but I'm also not expect, I'm not also not like in the, an assurance that that will never happen because I'm like, he will do anything thing that because no one will stop him. So he's going to do what he wants. Yeah.
02:51:51
Speaker
One of my favorite quotes, and I think this was from Lindsey Graham, but someone definitely said this recently from the Trump administration. I want to attribute this to Lindsey Graham. But Lindsey Graham apparently came out and he was like, oh, don't worry. Iran will have less casualties than Iwo Jima.
02:52:08
Speaker
Right. And I don't know if you know, but do you know how many casualties there were in Iwo Jima?
02:52:17
Speaker
ah don't google it doug don't google it uh i saw that face light up i didn't want to i didn't want you to cheat you know just guess just throw a number out there 50 000 fifty thousand Oh, OK. All right. I'll cut you down a bit. Twenty six thousand or twenty six thousand casualties in Iwo Jima.
02:52:37
Speaker
Right. So whose number is that? And when was that number taken like immediately after? Because, you no, I'm serious, though, because like you like stats are propaganda in a way, because like it's like, oh, no. But what about all the. Doug Iwo Jima was like one of the bloodier wars in World War II. Like it, like that was one of like the worst ones. Right. And it's this idea that like he used Iwo Jima because it was like, Oh, it's a recognizable one.
02:53:03
Speaker
Right. Yeah. Like he was saying that he was like, Oh, it'll be less bloody than that. Right. But it's this idea that like, it was still really bloody. Like, and, and, and for reference casualties does not refer to just deaths. Right. The deaths in Iwo Jima was like 6,000 was like 7,000.
02:53:19
Speaker
Right. That's a lot of people to die. Right. would say that like I would say 100 people would be a lot of people to die in like an Iran war that was started from Israel, you know. But the fact that there is the possibility of like 5000 6000 people dying like in iran very soon it's I mean, I just don't have, oh you know, like, they'll always talk that he has a timetable of, you know, who only wants to do this a few, like, we've seen this happen before. It's, that's, the 5,000 is just going to be the beginning, and this is going to, like, it's going to be the start of another forever war. I mean, the other forever wars didn't really stop. We just, like, we took the troops out of Afghanistan, and in you know, but, like, it's, like, nothing ended.
02:54:09
Speaker
No, for sure. Forever Wars is the implication that they just keep going, right? And as we both know, you know this whole Middle East project is decades in the making. This this whole you know Israel invading Lebanon, Iran lashing out at like...
02:54:30
Speaker
American proxy states, you know, this is something that like has been gest gestating. The only problem here is that it's happening in a way that America did not think would happen, right?
02:54:41
Speaker
it's It's happening in a way where they don't have as much control as they thought they would. So I think that it's a very in the loop scenario where like the Americans thought they had more power. The British had more reliance in the power that the Americans had than they thought they would. And now everybody's kind of going, well, i don't want to hold this bag.
02:55:00
Speaker
I don't want to be known as it because let's be honest, right? This this whole invasion that Trump's been trying to do has been a massive failure. They don't have air. They don't have air control. They don't have land control. They don't see control. They keep saying that every day.
02:55:11
Speaker
Right. The only way they're not getting the straight back anytime soon. The only bargaining chip he has is like, I'm going to bomb them even harder. But I'm like, that's why it's closed, bro. So like like I don't you have no cards to play.
02:55:27
Speaker
There's two ways out of this, right? The first way is that he pulls out, admits failure, and he gets impeached, right? Like Trump is going to get rammed on both sides of this issue if he were to pull out immediately from the conservatives and the ah Democrats, because the Democrats, they want this war to happen, but they hate the way he did it. Right. And and then the the Republicans, they just want him to kill as many Muslims as possible.
02:55:53
Speaker
Right. So if he were to pull out right now, would be disastrous. So you get impeached and J.D. Vance would come and it would be a whole thing. But then when it comes to the other side of this, right, ah to keep going, I don't think that it's unrealistic to see the possibility of nuclear nuclear escalation. I don't think that it's impossible to see that at all.
02:56:12
Speaker
I don't like, again, all the things that you would rationally think were off the table. don't think there are limits to like what he will and will not call for. And he's someone who refuses to ever back down or concede anything. So if like life means nothing to like, there's no, there's no like value of life where you'd be like, Oh, can I live with, you know, the consequences of pushing the spot like he is he doesn't give a shit like he is the closest to like dead zone Martin Sheen, right? Like the idea of just like a crazy guy in a cabin somewhere just being, oh, I'm going to press the button. You know, like one of those guys. Right. And then I can also imagine like, you know, let's say Iran is nuked. Right. And because Iran doesn't have any nukes, there's no idea of like, you know, mutually assured destruction, which would be another reason why you do it. Right. This idea that like no other country would bomb America with a nuke from because of that, because they withheld. I guess North Korea was right to keep their nukes because that's why we don't fuck with them.
02:57:24
Speaker
Well, I mean, like we moved whole bunch of tanker tankers away from North Korea to Iran. So technically speaking, North Korea has less protection than usual right now. So there is that whole like idea that North Korea could do something. But let's be honest, North Korea is not doing anything. They're closer to Cuba in the sense that like they do not have enough to like take care. No, I just meant like as a deterrent where it's like, no, like if you're another country that the US has their sites, there's no incentive for you to like dearm yourself, you know, like to decommission your nukes. Like, no, get as many nukes as possible. because that's That'll keep the US s from doing stuff to you.
02:58:05
Speaker
Maybe or maybe not edit this out of the episode. That's your call. But when I was in college, I wrote an essay on why Iran should have nukes.
02:58:17
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, that would have prevented this current... Well, because, like, what what you know we talked about how much they wanted it for so long, what was stopping them, and I think there was a deterrent, or the possibility of them having a deterrent that you know kept kept kept the whole thing at bay, because most even at their most evil, the military-industrial complex has the rational minds of, like, well, we don't want fucking nuclear wars. like they They usually... they're usually thinking armaments are a bargaining chip, right? It's this idea that like, if Iran were to have nukes, it's not because they're going to fire off a nuke and destroy San Francisco. because they're, it's because they're going to have a bargaining chip and be like, you can't fuck with us anymore. You can't like, you know, bomb our facilities that, you know, make oil, you know, because we have a nuke. Like that's why all these other countries do it. It's the reason why all those movies were made in the eighties where they were like, if, you know, people bomb each other too much, then they nuke each other. Right. It's this idea that mutually assured destruction doesn't so much escalate things, but actually deescalates things. It's this idea that because we have that same power, we can meet at the table as equals and we can have discussions. And the problem that's happening i in Iran is that you don't have they don't have a nuke, so they can't be seen on that same level. They get pummeled in that same way because they can't fight back. But the reality is they're actually fighting back against the Americans in a way that they didn't think that they would. They're actually taking out their air. They're taking out their sea. So that's why I'm worried about a nuclear incursion, because it like if they're able to take down the Americans that easily with trillions of dollars, money that could have gone to health care, they're going to want to like do something to show that they actually have some kind of power over the region. And it seems like every attempt that they've done so far has been proving that they don't have any power in any regard.
03:00:09
Speaker
Yeah. I mean... Sorry to rant. No, no, no. I agree with everything you're saying. It was just making me think of the point of... i forgot if it came out or if anything happened with it, but there was a planned documentary about... There was a scientist at Los Alamos who... Right. I feel like Oppenheimer mentioned him in the back. It was like a background thing that someone talked about, but someone gave the Soviets like the plans because his idea was that it's better that...
03:00:38
Speaker
one country can't just have this like there needs to be if two superpowers had it that that kind of cancels it out you know like he the basically the like a mutually assured destruction saying like that that like yeah if ah america if may america was the only ones with nukes we're the again and and we're the only country that's used them ever you know uh you said it not me No, if no one else had them, but how do we know that that would be true that we would have not have used them again? You know, like, like, I feel like it could have very possible like it just been like, oh, okay, we'll just drop this. that We'll drop it on Vietnam. oh
03:01:19
Speaker
Hey, Doug, I'm going to answer. I'm going to give you a question, right? um i want you to answer yes or no, right? Do you think that Canada has nukes? Hmm. you guys didn't appear in that montage in Final Reckoning where the nukes were arming up and they showed the country's flags on the side of the silos. So going to say no.
03:01:44
Speaker
You are right. Canada has no nukes. Canada is in a similar situation as Iran where we have nothing to defend ourselves. You guys should get some quick. I agree. i think that Canada should have nukes.
03:01:59
Speaker
I think there should just be open trade plutonium. Like we just get that everywhere. Uranium, but yes. Uranium. yeah No, sorry. oh I put Tony on my brain because what's the quote from ah Prince of Darkness when he's like, right. Your God plutonium will not save you.
03:02:21
Speaker
Which is the exact same as nuclear war. Let's be honest, like ghosts, you know, taking over ah part of a nondescript poor area of America because that's what John Carpenter could get. you know, like this. Another movie we should do on this podcast, separate from all this. This has no political ramifications. We should talk about Life Force.
03:02:43
Speaker
Oh, yeah, I'll talk about life force when fucking ever. Yeah, that hell yeah we could we could figure out a political context i for life force. So this naked vampire means a lot in terms of, you know, Trump. so I mean, it's it's like a, you know, a two country a coalition of astronauts. So because there's American and British astronauts, i don't know, there's something there. It's Toby Hooper. It's political somehow.
03:03:12
Speaker
It has Melania come out on digital yet. It's on Amazon Prime. Yeah. Is it? Yeah. Okay. yeah We should watch Melania. I think we should watch Melania. It's like i was like a stream or something. Maybe. Maybe we could do a commentary track for Melania. That could be fun. But take the Melania challenge.
03:03:34
Speaker
Like how yeah how far into it. I mean, people have made the Melania. I was go say people have done that with actual good because I remember when I was in college, some friends were like, hey, we took the Tree of Life challenge, you know, see if they could make it through the whole movie. And I was like, OK, well, that's that's like that's easy.
03:03:51
Speaker
That's a good movie. I've got I've got a great ah ah conversation on Tree of Life, right? So the my first time watching Tree of Life was when I went with my grandparents to England for the first time we we were traveling around Britain, right?
03:04:07
Speaker
And they were like, let's watch an art house film because they wanted to see what I was into, right? they They wanted to see what art I was into. Yeah. And and I was looking at the marquee. It was I believe it was the Prince Charles. It's it's like one of their more popular in London, like one of their better movie theaters. I want to find what it was.
03:04:28
Speaker
I forgot Ty Sheridan was in Trio Life. He's someone I kind of turned around on, which I think it was just because he was in bad blockbusters that I was like, oh, he's nothing, right? But then what movie was it? Yes, like it was the Prince Charles. I was talking about the thing. Sorry, go go ahead.
03:04:44
Speaker
No, there was just a couple of movies. I think, oh because he's in Card Counter. And then there was another movie. What's the Jude Law movie where he's going after the white supremacist bank robbers? Oh.
03:04:56
Speaker
Jude Law, White Suppress, Bank Robbers. Is that like the one that came out like Oscar season like last year? The Order. Yeah. Yeah. I never watched that one, but I know what you're talking. It's quite good. ah Director of beloved Assassin's Creed.
03:05:13
Speaker
Justin Kerr's. No, it's off my list already. Nah, it's pretty good. I mean, it might be, it's hard because Nicholas Holt's kind of been on on fire, but I'm like, is that my favorite Holt performance? But I also really, Drew number two is so strong that i don't know.
03:05:32
Speaker
I watched your number two with Vanya, who we've talked about as a future guest on the podcast. Hilarious movie, like especially in terms of like the the other characters in the film. Like, you know, if you if you're paying attention to everybody but Nicholas Holt, hilarious movie. Well, and the fact that he is so obviously guilty, like the, it enhances it that it is operating at the logic of like an old school, like morality fable, but it's still like looks modern and grounded. So, but, so, but it just makes it ridiculous when he's like dropping his, like, you know, a coin and fumbling it. Cause he's just so sweaty and like guilty looking. And, and, you know, he's just like vomiting in the back, going to the bathroom to throw up and, People are like, you okay, buddy?
03:06:22
Speaker
I want to bring it back to the Prince Charles story, the Tree of Life story, right? With my grandparents. Because this is a great memory of mine, right? So like... ah grandparents, they're like, okay, you're to choose whatever movie you want to watch for tonight. Let's watch something. And I was like, Tree of Life, it's got Brad Pitt, it's got Jessica Chastain, it's got Oscar potential. was like This was before I seen the movie, before Tree of Life was known. you know i was like, maybe this could be something. right This idea on paper could work. And then i I showed it to them. We watched this movie in London. like We're there on vacation and we watched this movie. We walk out of Tree of Life and they hated it Right. like they They were like laughing about the decisions. and They're like, ah, and the dinosaurs, you know, it was a disaster. Right. So like before we left the London trip, I was like, I need to save this. I need to find a better movie for us to watch before we leave. And the movie that I chose before he left was Mike Mills is beginners. And have you ever seen that movie?
03:07:27
Speaker
I remember it coming out, but I never saw it. Oh, McGregor, Christopher Plummer. Doug, I will go to bat for this movie. This movie is great. I'm a big Mike Mills fan. Are you big Mike Mills fan? Have you seen like 20th century women?
03:07:41
Speaker
No, I have a lot of blind spots for him. Doug, we got it. That's another episode I'd love to 20th century women. That's ah that's an amazing movie. It introduced me to women. I'm just kidding. that This, ah but, but the beginners was like the perfect crowd pleaser versus tree of life. Right. It was like tree of life was this art house, you know, like,
03:08:07
Speaker
nonlinear, you know, examination of a dysfunctional life. Right. And then beginners was like, it had a thorny subject because it's about gay marriage and in and living as a gay man. Right. But then it's also rooted in like a heterosexual perspective. So it made it very palatable for them. and and And like I remember like with Tree of Life, they came out of that like howling and how bad it was. But with beginners, it was like they were so proud to have watched it. Like they were so happy to have seen that movie. And and I was like, you know what?
03:08:42
Speaker
I'm really glad I didn't go with under the skin that day. Yeah, probably. i mean, I love that movie, but I don't know how that would play with that crowd. Sorry. Sorry. No, no, no, no. Not in the skin. Sorry. There was ah the skin I live in, the Pedro L. Moldovar. That was the other one that I was like, maybe we could do that. one I don't think either of those would work.
03:09:00
Speaker
No, for no. I was glad I chose beginners instead of the skin I live in. that's right. Plumber won Oscar for beginners. I'm telling you, Beginners is a great movie. That that is a fantastic movie. I mean, i love is it is it?
03:09:15
Speaker
Let me check the weather out outside. Yeah, it looks like it's plum season. Go pick some plums. um ah He was the one who was like hired after Kevin Spacey was fired in All the Money in the world i never saw that. All the Money in the World.
03:09:31
Speaker
I never did end up seeing that one either. But like ah that, that, that story, right. The idea of like plumber coming in two months before release. That's the stuff of legends. Yeah.
03:09:41
Speaker
isn And who was the one who directed that? Was it Ridley Scott? Yeah, it was a Wrigley. that that that That is a total Ridley Scott move, right? Like Ridley Scott is the kind of like, by damn it, this movie's coming out. No, yeah, like we're not stopping production. Oh, we lost the star. i don't give a fuck. I'm calling it Christopher Plummer.
03:10:02
Speaker
I've got a month speed dial, right? Like yeah he was alive, John Hurt would be coming, you know, like you it's one of those situations. um I mean, it's an upgrade. Right. Yeah. and And let's be honest. Plummer in Sound of Music. Right.
03:10:20
Speaker
One of the best performances. Gotta love Sound of Music. Big fan of that movie. Yeah. I mean. ah Oh, also I'm also forgetting Insider. He's fucking good. Because like the thing is. yeah. Like he doesn't.
03:10:34
Speaker
like quote quote look like Mike Wallace he's playing a very famous person but it's one of those things where it's like no the performance matters more than like like when I feel like biopic stuff casts so much on like well they kind of look like the guy it's like it's more about the energy like you gotta you just need a good performance You need somebody who knows what they're doing. And Plummer is like one of the best professionals who ever worked in film. Right. So it's like when you've got them in your movie, you're like, yeah, you know, like there's there was this movie captive. I believe it's called. I want i want to pull it up right now. um
03:11:13
Speaker
It's it's an Anton McGowan film um with Ryan Reynolds. Do you know about this movie? What's it called? It's called Captive 2014. You know about this?
03:11:24
Speaker
Scott Speedman, Ryan Reynolds. I just want double check. Is Christopher Plummer in this movie? I thought he was. Not seeing him. Yeah, I'm not seeing him either. i could be misremembering. ah Because Christopher Plummer was definitely in another Atomagoyan film.
03:11:41
Speaker
Like another recent one. I'm going to check. I got to find out. This this will piss me off. Atom McGowan. What a weird filmmaker. that That's another filmmaker i would love to cover on this pod.
03:11:58
Speaker
Are you familiar with that, Tom? I've seen at least one of his movies, but i'm trying to figure out which one it is. Okay, so so I remembered which Atomagoyan movie I was thinking of, but I did want to call out the fact that the actor I was thinking about in The Captive was not was not Christopher Plummer, but it was Rosario Dawson. Oh, I get them mixed up all the time. When I was watching Clerks 3, I was like, Christopher Plummer's in this? Is that him? Yeah. He was the last one.
03:12:33
Speaker
um But I remember now, ah Atta McGowan hired ah Christopher Plummer to star in a movie called Remember, which was after Captive, which was about like an aging man going after like Nazis.
03:12:50
Speaker
Oh, I think I remember seeing previews for this, but I never saw it. Yeah, Atamogoyan is a really strange filmmaker. I would love to talk about more of his films. Again, another crazy Canadian. um He's made some great Canadian films. Pink Schrader's in this?
03:13:08
Speaker
he's do you Do you know about the movie The Sweet Hereafter? no so Oh, my God. What about Exotica? No. OK, and then what about Chloe?
03:13:21
Speaker
Yeah, I know Chloe. There we go. OK, so if you know Chloe, just imagine two movies better than that.
03:13:30
Speaker
Better than oh, Lies Koyas is in fucking Exotica. So that's just sold. And then Sweet Hereafter is Sarah Pauly and Ian Holm. Like it's it's amazing.
03:13:41
Speaker
Sweet Hereafter is probably his masterpiece.
03:13:47
Speaker
Bus crash in a small town brings lawyer to a family family. It discovers everything isn't what it seems. Ooh. It'd be funny if a movie's like, everything actually, everything's what it seems. That should be a movie advertising. Everything is totally normal. Like, this is exactly what it looks like. And you go see the movie, you're like, it can't be exactly what it looks like. And then it is.
03:14:13
Speaker
What you expected? Yup. It's just one of those, you know? um What I love about the Sweet Hereafter is, okay, so let let's see if this has permeated ah your level of American culture. Do you know what... um Oh, shoot.
03:14:32
Speaker
Oh, they just announced Tragic. Do you know who Tragically Hip is? ah That sounds like something my brain knows. Okay, so the fact that you don't know what that is is, enough. So Tragically Hip was like the Canadian classic rock band, right? Like, okay, Tragically Hip, ah the lead singer chord Gord Downey, he died of cancer in like 2010 2012. Like when when you turn on a radio, right. And like Canadian content needs to be, you know, if let's say you're you're on their classic rock stadium station and they need to hit the quota of like Canadian content, they just pump a tragically hip music.
03:15:15
Speaker
This is like the Canadian band that like they replace. Oh, and And they use like a particularly big, ah tragically hip song during the climax of Sweet Hereafter. That's a ah reason I'm bringing it up. I'm sorry.
03:15:31
Speaker
No, no, it's good context. ah ah But I just there's breaking news. Fetty Alvarez is doing a legacy sequel a Sweet Hair After and they're going to deep fake Ian Holm into it.
03:15:44
Speaker
Yeah. Pretty, pretty remarkable work. I got to say, are they going to deep fake Sarah Pauly as well? Yeah. Everyone is actually going to no actors in it. It's all going to be a deep fakes.
03:15:58
Speaker
It's going to be like that ah movie with Robin Wright, the surrogate, you know, all of their personas, you know, um man, fuck you. And Romulus that sucks. That movie was really bad.
03:16:14
Speaker
And I was like, i wasn't like a like a Alvarez diehard, but I thought his Evil Dead remake was good. Like, i like it it it i it you know it's not my favorite movie in that franchise, but it like fulfilled...
03:16:30
Speaker
the need of like, okay, this is a modern evil dead, but also doing its own thing. And I was like, okay, like that. I, I, I, I appreciate it. Uh, and Romulus was the exact opposite. I mean, it's just weird to do a like nostalgia thing.
03:16:48
Speaker
circle jerk trip in ah an alien an alien franchise because like even though the franchise is kind of the same story over and over it's like alien gets loose on a ship and gotta get away or survive but like it's they all feel very different you know because it's just like regardless of how well each one works the director's doing the thing They all have their own auteur spin, right? Like they have their their own take on what the xenomorph is. And then this was the first movie where it was like, oh, it's the leg legacy that counts. But the problem was that legacy of the alien movies started to get intertwined with the Predator movies. So like they've started to lack their own identity. What they needed right now was something to differentiate themselves from the Predator films. But instead, it's something that feels so tepid. And so, you know, like, and you know, But that's what the fucking stupid fans wanted though, because like they want, I, when I saw that in the theater, there was a a dad with his kid in the bathroom and the kid was excited. I guess he had seen maybe some of the other alien movies. Uh, but, but he, he was like, yeah, I have never seen, i never saw Prometheus or Covenant. And he's like, Don't. They've ruined everything. like i just i just hope this one's better. And so that was to appease those people because you know whether or not to whatever degree those movies work for you, I love Prometheus. Covenant took me a while to come along on because it felt like, a i mean, and it is a compromised movie in terms of like it fully, it kind of had to like meet halfway to the the needs of an alien, but it is also still...
03:18:25
Speaker
rid ridley going nuts so like i can appreciate that uh but uh yeah just that mindset of like oh i didn't like these those movies that did something different let's like take it back to basics
03:18:43
Speaker
I think they do need to take it big back to basics in a sense, you know, because like what was Prey, right? Like that Predator film. right It was like taking Predator back to basics. And I feel like Alien needs to do a level of that now. You can do that at the same time as this whole Noah Hawley show, right? Like, I feel like that one. Well, that's the thing. Like, iology As a Noah Hawley defender, i was a little let down by alien Earth. Like there's good stuff in it. It just felt like it it intentionally sp spun its wheels because it like it was like, oh, we can't kill off these characters or conclude this plot line to season two. But to me, it proves that because the most interesting stuff in that has nothing to do with the xenomorph. I'm like, Alien doesn't have to be just the one iconic thing like it's It's literally just called alien because there's other creatures in alien Earth that are way more interesting. There's like an eyeball monster that like it takes over whatever life like it'll pull out the eye. It's like got like little squid tentacles. It pulls out the eye of another creature. And it but like all these things are other parasites. So like it it like takes over other life forms like you see it tested on a sheep. pulls out the sheep's eye. it's so gross. And it crawls in there and then it's in the sheep's body. And then you see it do that to a person later. But I'm like that.
03:20:05
Speaker
That's fucking cool. I was way more scared of that thing than the Xenomorph. So I'm like, just just make up another creature. why Why is it off limits? Probably because of H.R. Geiger, right? They're too afraid of, you know, doing anything that's outside of his design so much as they have because Geiger was such a particular kind of pervert that they can't recreate that, right? And that's going to exist as long as Scott lives, right? Unfortunately, right? And I'm not saying that unfortunately because like once Scott kicks the bucket, then they can really go forward. It's also because like there was an art being lost here. Right. right alien Alien is a vision of the 70s horror. um here' Here's a good way of putting it into the context. Have you ever been to Florida to go to Disney World?
03:20:55
Speaker
Not to Disney World, but like I visited relatives there long time ago. Yeah. Back in the past, when ah Hollywood Studios at Disney World theme parks was cool, um there was a ride there called ah the Great Movie Ride. Right. And this idea of this ride was that it would take you through a bunch of classic films and it took you through like set pieces from. Oh, so it's the end of Babylon.
03:21:21
Speaker
Pretty much. to let but boom do and and daning name va and deep that and it Would it be offensive if I put that music to the end montage from Bamboozle?
03:21:38
Speaker
Uh, that is offensive. I'm just kidding. Have you seen it yet? yeah No, I saw it. I fucking loved it. Good. Hey, what did I tell you? What did I tell you? That movie's a masterpiece. And then the Scott hasn't seen episode on it lived up to it with Connor Ratliff as the because he'd been pushing for bamboo them to do bamboozled forever.
03:22:00
Speaker
It was just funny to have him as as the guest on it. i mean, it made for a great discussion. mean, because they, you know, i mean, they're all comedy guys, but they, you know, can have like, you know, serious, thoughtful discussion discussions. Yeah.
03:22:11
Speaker
About race, politics. Although Connor made the joke at one point. he's like, i was told we weren't going to get political this episode. Yeah.
03:22:21
Speaker
I'm not saying this to be a downer, but we should probably round this episode out soon. um But also, I did want to comment on you seeing this movie. um Isn't Moss Death hilarious in Bamboozle? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, he's what a great fucking actor. ah Man, he's he's kind of a background periphery character, but every time he's given a line, he's he is chewing that scenery. i mean, just the vibe of of those scenes of his like his little like revolutionary gang, Mao Mao. Yeah. Yeah.
03:22:53
Speaker
There's just like the one bit where they keep saying, you know I'm saying? Back to each other for like 30 seconds. You know what I'm saying? You know what I'm saying? and And fucking Michael Rapaport, right? was He didn't even know he was in a movie. He didn't even know he was in a movie. they just like He had no idea. he but I can say the N-word. you know like he's just like him like like but like It was like Spike Lee like took him aside. He was just like now's your time you know like it like michael it's likely was just like you've been waiting your whole life you know like that's what this movie feels like like a boy on christmas but yeah frame for the purpose of like i love how direct it is on some of the um that stuff because it's like he's just like calling out tarantino in that part and then he absolutely is yeah it's it's incredible
03:23:46
Speaker
It's why I say that, like, I think that we've left the Tarantino Spike Lee debate in the dust too fast. I think, you know, like, I feel like we need to talk about that more because Spike Lee had some good points. we i think so I think Spike. Well, and then also just as an artist, Spike fucking blows them out the water. Like whatever you can. It's true.
03:24:07
Speaker
You can point the ones that don't. I've even seen those movies and whatever you point the ones that don't work or whatever. But like just the vastness in the bush. Let's not be around the bush. Right. Let's be honest. Right. Let's stack filmographies together. Right. Let's let's compare Tarantino to Spike Lee. Spike Lee has more better movies like he but per capita. Spike Lee is the better film and more variety. Like even if you just count the documentaries that spikes me 100 percent.
03:24:35
Speaker
preaching to the choir right now. Like literally Spike Lee blows Quinn Tarantino out of the water easily, in my opinion. Yeah. Suck a dick, Tarantino. Like, don't know. Fuck yourself. I want to know how he felt about that. Also, okay, if we will wrap this up soon because I do want to do its own episode on Bamboozled, but what a flex because like I was thinking of the context of like when this came out and I was like, oh, Because this partly feels like it is like a response to how critics perceived like not just his work overall, but like also specifically Malcolm X. And then there's a Malcolm X clip in it when Malcolm X is saying, you've been bamboo, you've been hoodwinked, bamboozled. And I'm like, oh, this is so fucking funny. Is this the best movie ever made? Like you're just like bamboozled is almost like the cornerstone. Sorry, the cornerstone of what ah Spike Lee has been doing.
03:25:26
Speaker
Right. Like it's like all of the parts of political commentary he's been trying to say in one film. Is he saying everything? you it it's It's like not Jimmy be like, oh, it's just the blackface moves like, no he's got other stuff he's talking about.
03:25:40
Speaker
And on top of that, right, like it's it's like deeply passionate, like it's it like it's really sad. It's really funny. And and it's shot on a camcorder like it's shot on like the cheapest digital you've ever seen. like like it is one of the most innovative American films made of that era. Like it is so amazing. It is an American. era Well, it's shot on digital video, and just like shitty digital video. But then when they go on stage, it's like film, right? Because like the quality changes. its Yeah. Well, it's not like film. I think it's just like better quality television. Like I have to see the film again to remember. Right. I could be wrong. You've seen it more recently than me. It could have been.
03:26:24
Speaker
Professional 35, but from my memory, most of it was just on digital, right? Like, least right, at least in better or worse, right? And and I mean, I even from like the stuff that's being captured with the rest of the film, even though that's cassette, right? Like a lot of the film is shot on digital cassette. um And there's ah there's a real strong visual layer that comes from that. we We're talking about bamboozled a lot. I do want to save it a little bit. oh Yeah, well we'll save it. like look Look forward to when we get to that. That's going to be going to
03:26:56
Speaker
be paired with some other heavy hitters that it has ah some overlap with. I feel like, yeah like a lot a lot stuff that we've been building towards or, you know, talking about that we will cover. I feel like bamboozled like, is that like a nexus point between all these? So yeah. I mean, so that, that's just everyone's cue to like, go, go out, watch bamboozled. watch it.
03:27:16
Speaker
Check it out for the library. Make sure everyone there sees the cover and sees what you're checking out in. ah Go to the black library. know go to the blackest library. Just just like imagining like you're going to each of your libraries in town, imagining that your town has more than one library and just being like, excuse me, how many black employees do you have? You know, like yeah yeah you just go in, look, take a peek you're like now.
03:27:49
Speaker
You just walk in here just like, not this one. no like not enough. you know I see two black people, but there's six white people. So ratio ain't right. Going. no yeah not feel No, I'm not comfortable. leave that just I don't want the the question when I'm at the counter with the with the black face DVD, you know, well, it's to start a dialogue, you know, that's what the movie's all about. right So, you know, that's why the it's a it's the 40 X experience for white people.
03:28:22
Speaker
I guess that goes to show how much of a fake ah ally I am. I don't have the bam bamboozled Blu-ray on Criterion. I should own it. Right. But maybe there's like an ingrained, you know, white hatred I have in terms of being afraid of going up to the counter with it in hand. ah You know, I have it mailed to you.
03:28:43
Speaker
but But that's my own ingrained white supremacy that I just didn't. you know Yeah. Yeah. Well, you need to unlearn that. So we'll work on We'll work on it. We'll work on it out on the remix. That's one of our goals. These guys got juices all about, you know, learning. You know, it's fun.
03:29:03
Speaker
Learning, growing. ah Yeah, i mean, we we've went off in the loop a while ago. i feel like we've we've we've covered a good a gamut of stuff and yeah. We did.
03:29:19
Speaker
You hanging, Chad? Just hanging. Want to play some Facebook chess? Yes, ma'am. He's getting away from the wall! What are you doing? Just want to have a photo near the wall and... Yeah, you can go back another 12 inches.
03:29:33
Speaker
No, a bit further. There. Stop there! Check. I haven't touched it. You've sort of... I made a move for you, which is the best possible move you could have made, and it's still not enough. be Secretary of State someday, young man.
03:29:49
Speaker
You don't say that if you don't mean that. When you know when all of this is shit, it's over. Maybe, you know, you're a woman. I'm not a woman.
03:30:03
Speaker
You want to have sex again? Well, would it be such a terrible idea? You know, one more. One more for the gipper. Well, I don't want to be accused of micromanaging, but I cannot understand why Heart Huckabees is on a list of DVDs considered suitable for armed forces entertainment. That self-indulgent crap is not suitable for combat troops.
03:30:31
Speaker
I've got a selection of the quotations here for you. mean, they're all local building firms. I mean, much for muchness, you know, to sort out the boundary wall. But um the this septic tank, that is rearing its pooey head again?
03:30:46
Speaker
Yes. I just got off the phone with Linton, who proceeded to bitch me out for allowing Heart Huckabees on the troops' DVD roster. Yeah. You know that phrase, I'm too old for this shit?
03:30:58
Speaker
I'm too young for this shit, you know? Oh, here's the new minister. Malcolm. Yes, ladies and gentlemen Thank you Thank you, thank you hello GD. Malloy nice to meet you down yeah Danny down war seems to be great now very cheeky very tricky Judy so if I don't discuss mind your step there's still blood in the day yeah, sure use that one how about this?
03:31:29
Speaker
How about this? Very glamorous?
03:31:34
Speaker
Hey, it is. That's fine. I think there's a wee bit brains there. Oh, yes. It's the only brains that you have, actually. It's nice to meet you, Dan. Where did you go to school? Uh, the school in Jersey.
03:31:45
Speaker
Jersey? Is that actually a brain? Yeah. I'm sorry, Elizabeth. I'm not standing.