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075: When “Bad Behavior” Is Really a Cry for Safety
14 Plays8 days ago
“Behavior is communication.” That one truth can change the way we see children, parents, and even ourselves.
In this deeply insightful episode of Vulnerability Muscle, Reggie D. Ford sits down with ADHD coach, parent advocate, and fellow UPenn MAPP student Joni Corn for a conversation that challenges the way we talk about attention, emotion, behavior, and what kids actually need from the adults around them.
Joni shares how her journey through law, nonprofit work, homeschooling, and parenting led her to support families navigating ADHD with more compassion, more curiosity, and far less shame. Together, she and Reggie unpack why so many children are mislabeled as difficult when they are actually dysregulated, overwhelmed, or trying their best in environments that do not fit how their brains work.
This episode explores the emotional cost of misunderstanding ADHD, the power of co-regulation, why diagnosis can be life-changing, and how strength-based parenting can help children feel seen instead of “fixed.” It is a powerful reminder that psychological safety is not a luxury. It is the foundation for growth, learning, and connection.
You will hear about:
- Why vulnerability is the starting point for genuine connection
- How ADHD often gets mistaken for laziness, defiance, or lack of effort
- What behavior is really communicating in children
- Why nervous system safety matters before learning can happen
- How parents can support emotional regulation with compassion instead of control
- The hidden gifts, creativity, and brilliance so often missed in people with ADHD
Key Quotes / Takeaways
- “Vulnerability is where all genuine connection comes from.”
- “Behavior is communication.”
- “Your kids are people. They’re just smaller.”
Call to Action
If you are a parent, caregiver, educator, or someone who has ever felt misunderstood because of how your brain works, this conversation will leave you with more compassion and a whole new lens. Listen to this episode of Vulnerability Muscle and join us in creating spaces where people feel seen, safe, and supported.
Contact Info
Guest: Joni Corn
Email: corn_joni@yahoo.com
Joni offers a free consultation and can also share trusted ADHD resources for parents and adults who want to learn more.
Host: Reggie D. Ford
Website: https://reggiedford.com
Socials: @reggiedford on all platforms
Recommended
Transcript
The Language of Behavior
00:00:00
Speaker
Behavior is communication. Behavior is telling us something. Somebody's smiling. That's behavior. You know that person is feeling good, right? Somebody's throwing a chair across the room. That's behavior. True.
00:00:11
Speaker
They're telling you, this is not working. I am having trouble. I need help. But the kids don't have the word to ask for that. Or they have asked for it. Like my son was saying, don't want to do it. don't want to do it. want to do it.
00:00:24
Speaker
And nobody's listening. They're saying, you have to, you have to, have to. and they're kind of backed into a corner like I don't know what else to do. Welcome to Vulnerability Muscle, the inspiring podcast, challenging norms, and helping you redefine vulnerability as a strength.
00:00:39
Speaker
I'm your host, Reggie D. Ford. Each episode of Vulnerability Muscle dives into a variety of topics such as mental health, social issues, and mindset shifts.
00:00:49
Speaker
We explore the power of vulnerability and fostering meaningful connections. healing, building resilience, and promoting personal growth. Sometimes these conversations are uncomfortable, but good workouts often are.
00:01:04
Speaker
So join us and flex that vulnerability muscle.
Introducing 'Vulnerability Muscle' Podcast
00:01:08
Speaker
Welcome to this episode of Vulnerability Muscle. I'm your host, Reggie D. Ford. And today with me, i have another special guest, another MAP, Masters of Applied Positive Psychology at the University of Pennsylvania student ah who is in my cohort, who is a fantastic human being. This is Joni Korn. Welcome, Joni. How are you doing?
Meet Joni Korn: Advocate for ADHD and Homeschooling
00:01:32
Speaker
Thanks, Reggie. I am so glad to be here talking to you. I'm doing good. And thanks for asking me to chat with you. Yeah, i am I'm glad. i'm I'm excited about this because you're one of those people who I see as having such a clear passion for what you do and for who you do it for. um you you have You blend such a unique experience of you you've practiced law, you've worked in the nonprofit space and and raising kids, homeschooling. Did you homeschool two your kids? Yeah, yeah. Two of my kids from...
00:02:08
Speaker
kindergarten through twelfth grade all the way through. like That alone is like, yeah we could learn we could talk all day long about that in itself. ah But you've you've turned your work toward helping parents and and kids with ADHD, coaching them through that life and and in those experiences.
00:02:28
Speaker
And what stands out to me most is just how human-centered you are in the approach. like Looking at your background, you have this this strength-based learning. You have trauma-informed care. There is... There is a so much nonviolent communication, which I think is so crucial in the space, especially when you think about just how powerful our words are, how powerful it is when kids are developing and in how literal we can take certain things, even if we're not trying to be. um have any malattent behind those things. And so I think that that is so crucial and you do such a good job. And now you're utilizing this program, Masters of Applied Positive Psychology, to bring that to your parents and your your students and kids. And so I'm i'm just so impressed by it with all you do.
00:03:16
Speaker
Thanks, Reggie. I really appreciate that. Absolutely. Right back at you. I appreciate it. i got you when Before we get deeper into um who is Joni Korn, I got three questions that I like to ask. Okay. All right. The first one is what comes to mind when you hear the word vulnerability?
00:03:38
Speaker
Good question.
The Power of Vulnerability in Connection
00:03:40
Speaker
ah Well, I um think that Vulnerability is where all genuine connection comes from.
00:03:50
Speaker
So I love creating the space for others to be vulnerable so they can, you know, have that connection. And i think that it always starts with me being vulnerable.
00:04:03
Speaker
So I try and um allow myself to be vulnerable first, to be able to create that space, to have a genuine connection. connection with somebody.
00:04:16
Speaker
I love that. and Growth is invulnerability. Yes. You just reminded me. So i I have to share this because it just came up. um I saw it on Instagram, but it was a quote by Deja Ray.
00:04:32
Speaker
To be vulnerable is to live fully. Yes, your heart might break. Yes, you might fail. Yes, things might not unfold the way you hoped. But vulnerability doesn't make you more susceptible to pain.
00:04:44
Speaker
It makes you more susceptible to life. And life will inevitably hold shades of disappointment. I thought that was so beautiful because it's life. And you you spoke about modeling it first, which is one of the, it is the first pillar of the vulnerability muscle framework, which I've developed, but I i love that. i love that. So yeah. Yeah. Space.
00:05:09
Speaker
Yeah. The next question is what is something that you do to relax, to decompress, to unwind when you're feeling stressed or overwhelmed?
Relaxation Techniques and Childhood Memories
00:05:19
Speaker
Yeah. Well, the very first thing I do is breathe deeply and slowly.
00:05:26
Speaker
um I use my breath a lot, actually, if I'm really stressed. Like if I'm going into a meeting and or I'm about to do a presentation, you know i can be sitting there waiting to be called and I feel myself, uh-oh, you know? And I just breathe really deeply. um i try and get outside.
00:05:41
Speaker
I go for a walk. i talk to somebody that I love. I'll call my sister. I'll pet my dog. You know, I connect. Actually, i connect. That's what I do with myself and with people I love.
00:05:55
Speaker
Oh, I love that. I love that. Petting the dog is so important. Like, I don't know where I would be without my dog. right now Lastly, um what or what is one of your favorite childhood memories?
00:06:10
Speaker
I love these questions. I really do. Because you're asking me things that like, I'm not, i have I don't sit down and think about. And it's fun to think about them. um I have lots of great memories with my sister. So I'm one of five kids. I'm super close to my two sisters. I'm like sandwiched by my sisters. And I have lots of great memories.
00:06:33
Speaker
um When I'm little, my younger sister wasn't born yet really. when With my older sister, we would, was probably like five, six, seven. And my parents, my mom would put us to bed and it was still daylight out. She had this, you know, she would put us to bed at like clockwork at a certain time, regardless of fact that the sun was still up and it was so hard to go to sleep.
00:06:55
Speaker
And we were supposed to just lay there quietly and go to sleep. And so my sister and I would try to be really quiet until, um you know, my mom went downstairs, whatever, so we could stay up and talk.
00:07:06
Speaker
And so my some of my favorite memories are staying up late at night and chatting with my sister. And this one time we would always fall asleep. We wanted to stay up until it got dark, which was like an hour later, and we couldn't.
00:07:18
Speaker
So we decided one night we were gonna put ourselves in really uncomfortable positions. So I was like, my bed was next to the wall. So I laid on my bed, but like only my head was on my bed and my whole body was like up the wall. And I was like, there's no way i can fall asleep like this. i totally fell asleep. Oh my goodness.
00:07:37
Speaker
What's that? That's so funny. My sister didn't fall asleep. She was so uncomfortable because she laid there for like an hour in this horrible position. I just fell asleep and went, you know, late, relaxed on my bed. And, uh, yeah, we didn't get to talk that night, but really fun, fun things. I'll tell you what about that. She did this thing where, um, I love my sister, but she has a wicked sense of humor. And she told me that, um, if you hypnotize somebody, you can't like wake them up. Don't wake them up. you have to wake them up a very specific way, because if you just wake them up, they could die.
00:08:17
Speaker
And I was little and I believed, still kind of believe things telling me, I'm pretty gullible, but I believed everything. And so I was like, okay, great. So then I had this little thing and she's like, so let's try it. So I hypnotize her and she pretends to be hypnotized. And then I'm like, it worked, it worked. And then I couldn't wake her up cause gonna kill her. And I was like, oh my God, totally panicked. And she fell off the bed laughing. That was absolutely hysterical. I always wanted to kill her. I was so scared.
00:08:44
Speaker
Yeah, that's my sister. Oh my goodness. That sounds so much fun. Like you and your sister sound like y'all like had a blast growing up. as Oh, you reminded me of something when you were talking about just staying up late and talking. Like those are some of the best chats ever. Yeah. I i didn't grow up with siblings that were near me, but i um my cousins were about my age. And so I remember just being with my cousins, especially one in particular, Marquez, and we would just, we would lay in bed and we'd talk and it it'd be like, are you up?
00:09:20
Speaker
Yep. What do you want to about? Girls. and Just like that was every weekend. It was so funny. So, oh, those were some good conversations. That's so sweet.
00:09:33
Speaker
And going back to vulnerability, it's interesting because late night, in your own home, in your own bed, it's dark, you know, you have somebody next to you in the room.
00:09:44
Speaker
That's a perfect space for vulnerability, right? Yes. You're psychologically safe. You're with somebody, you know, cares about you and all sorts of things can come up and yeah, it's a beautiful space. It just feels good.
00:09:57
Speaker
It is. um i'm I'm curious about just the rest of the upbringing of Joni Korn. Can you give us, can you paint us a picture? Where were you, were where were you born? And just a little bit of background about that.
00:10:12
Speaker
Yeah, sure. I grew up in the country. So um I grew up, um my parents owned a camp. So we lived on the campground. So there's this big camp, like 200 acres, like just giant camp. And we had a really old house. And um like said, I'm one of five. So I'm the fourth young down. Like i was four out of five. um And we it was just a really fun way to grow up. Like we were outside all the time riding bikes. and
00:10:46
Speaker
you know, our town was very, very pretty rural. And we had sheep farms and you know, our milk was delivered in a bottle, a glass bottle. And, um, we had farms all over, like as the town, it was a farming town and it was just easy and relaxed and full of nature.
00:11:10
Speaker
it was beautiful. It was really beautiful. I'm close with my siblings and, uh, I have lots of cousins. I love that you talked about cousins, got lots of cousin memories. And,
00:11:22
Speaker
it was just a really nice way to grow up. It was ah it was just a nice low keyed, very in the moment, you know, like present with nature and together and lots togetherness.
00:11:34
Speaker
I'm glad you said that because as you were describing it, I could like picture that the, the, the peace and the presence of it all of like, I've only, I've only lived in Nashville my entire life. And not that it's a huge, it's a, it's a city, but it's not a huge city, but has grown and even growing up, it still had city city feel and the peace and quiet and serenity that you just described, I haven't experienced except when I go camping or go to different places.
00:12:06
Speaker
And um there you i I was just out of school recently reading my book and this just showed the difference in worlds because i I grew up how I grew up and and these kids are growing up differently. It was in a rural part of Tennessee. and this one kid, I was asking kids about their times that they have persevered, like something that there was a challenge and they overcame that challenge.
00:12:33
Speaker
And this one kid was saying, when I tended to the sheep. And I was like, what do you mean? He's like, well, when I was first starting off, I was terrified. I was scared of the sheep and I didn't like it licking me and I didn't like it. And then i kept going and and i was just like, I was holding in laughter. i was holding in like this, this big, I was smiling, but like I had an even bigger smile of joy inside of me or just like,
00:12:59
Speaker
How beautiful this was because this kid has developed a strength and can recognize that connected to getting over hard things. Yeah. Asking the question. yeah Asking the question helps him really solidify it. Like, oh, i have done hard things. I can do hard things. Yes. yeah yeah And i'm I'm glad, like, I love going to different parts of the country, rural parts um that are just so different from my experience because it it gives me insight onto us collectively as humans, how we are
00:13:36
Speaker
somewhat different, but we are so, so similar. We're so similar. And um I love just learning from kids, especially because they have such a, ah they have such wild imagination. They do. And they don't have all those protective layers. Right.
00:13:53
Speaker
So it's just really beautiful. Can I, that like, okay. So going from, I read what K through four, no K through yeah. Fourth grade.
00:14:05
Speaker
And you see the layers added on with each grade. So like the kindergartens are just kids. I don't even want to call them wild. They're just kids. But then you get to the fourth graders and they're like buttoned up and well behaved. I'm like, oh, we've stripped them of so much of what makes them great already at that age. Yeah. Don't get me started on school.
00:14:29
Speaker
Well, let's get you started on school. How do you feel about it?
Rethinking Education: Homeschooling Journey
00:14:34
Speaker
Well, I think there's some great schools, some really great schools and some really great teachers. I think that as an institution, it needs a lot of work. Yeah. um I think that,
00:14:46
Speaker
you know, just, I think that, um well, I can tell you when my son went to college, one of the first things that one of his teachers reads out reached out to me, and one of the first things that she said was, um one of the things I noticed is different about your son.
00:15:02
Speaker
is he doesn't have all those layers. He doesn't have all these protective layers that I see the other kids coming in with. And I really attribute that to not being in a traditional school environment.
00:15:16
Speaker
So when my, when the same son was in, i put him in preschool for about two months and I was in the classroom with him. wasn't really allowed to interact with him, but I was in the classroom with him and I watched his self-esteem and his self-worth plummet.
00:15:37
Speaker
ah I watched him dissolving in front of my very eyes. He was, he has ADHD. He's a square peg in a round hole in a traditional classroom.
00:15:48
Speaker
And the effects of it were, they were devastating for him. And he started to get frustrated and angry and like his personality was changing because he was so frustrated and confused.
00:16:02
Speaker
right? And, and just feeling embarrassed and like all of these feelings that didn't know what to do with. So it was a gift for me that I was able to observe it and realize this environment's not going to work.
00:16:16
Speaker
Wow. And I saw other kids like have similar things happen to them. And parents talk to me now about the things that are happening for them.
00:16:27
Speaker
So this is something that's I've heard over and over again over the years, but it was actually a gift for me to be able to, see it because I never would have known. wouldn't have known why he was getting so angry or why he was getting physical or why he, I wouldn't have known.
00:16:40
Speaker
and he wouldn't have been able to tell me. Right. Because most parents, what they're getting is a a report from a teacher right at ah at a conference or through an email sent home.
00:16:53
Speaker
And you yeah you you take the adult side most of the time or you know you listen to your child. You try to, but you don't truly experience what they're experiencing. And to watch a child's self-worth and self-esteem just fall and fall. I bet that was always heartbreaking. It really was. And then I would have the teacher say to me afterwards, nothing happened.
00:17:15
Speaker
Like, I don't know why he reacted that way. Nothing happened. And I was like, I can tell you exactly what happened. I know exactly what happened. I was observing, like. Explain what that, describe what that looked like or or what, what confined him in a way to, to make that come out of him.
00:17:33
Speaker
What confined him? Like what was happening in the clock? What was happening in that moment? Right. Um, Okay. Here's one example. Everyone was doing an art project and one at a time they sat with the teacher and drew a picture.
00:17:49
Speaker
So she called them up one at a time. And um he did not like the, he had like fine motor issues. So like picking up a pencil or a pen or coloring, he wasn't going to anywhere even near it because it was, it's really hard and he, he was, didn't enjoy it at all. So she called up one student at a time. They sat with her and drew their picture.
00:18:09
Speaker
And she called him last because she knew that this was he doesn't like to do it. So she called him up. He sat down and he drew a picture. And it was very rudimentary. And she said, don't you want to write do this? And you know don't you want to add a sun? And he's like, no.
00:18:25
Speaker
Don't you want to add a mountain? No. Don't you want to this? Don't you want to add that? june And he's like, no, no, no. And she's like, everyone else drew more on their paper. what you know You need to add something.
00:18:39
Speaker
So my little four-year-old is like, okay, trying to do what he's being asked to do, but like not being able to meet these expectations. He took his pen crayon, whatever it was, and he made like one line on the paper.
00:18:55
Speaker
And he said, that's my picture. Wow. And she says to me afterwards, like he's being so difficult and he's being, um you know, obstinate and he's being this and he's being that, like a whole litany of negative description.
00:19:10
Speaker
And I said, none of that is happening. None of it. He is actually trying to do what he's telling you over and over again. That doesn't feel good. That doesn't feel good. That doesn't feel good. And you're not listening. So he's trying to meet your expectations. That's how he could do it.
00:19:24
Speaker
Wow. Wow. And we... yeah We often, we don't see, i kids don't have the language to communicate exactly how they feel oftentimes. And so it comes out in that behavior.
00:19:40
Speaker
And you were able to witness his behavior change in that moment because he didn't enjoy what was being, what was happening at that time. yeah and And so like, how do, how do,
00:19:53
Speaker
we as adults or teachers or caregivers, what are some of the signs that we can notice in a child, especially a child who has ADHD, to know that they're signaling to us much more than just bad behavior or or what we would deem bad behavior?
00:20:11
Speaker
Right. Well, it's a whole mindset shift around behavior. It's not about controlling behavior and changing behavior. Because that's about controlling a person and changing a person.
00:20:25
Speaker
Behavior is communication. Behavior is telling us something. Somebody's smiling, that's behavior. You know that person is feeling good, right? If somebody's throwing a chair across the room, that's behavior.
00:20:36
Speaker
True. They're telling you, this is not working. I am having trouble. I need help. But the kids don't have the word to ask for that. Or they have asked for it. Like my son was saying, i don't want to do it. I don't want to do it. i don't want to do it.
00:20:50
Speaker
and nobody's listening. They're saying you have to, you have to, have to. Right. And they're kind of backed into a corner. Like, I don't know what else to do. And at that point they're in their survival brain.
00:21:02
Speaker
So their survival brain is either going to tell them stop talking and shut down. It's going to tell them to run away. It's going to tell them to pick up the chair and throw it. Right. It's behavior telling the adult, this child needs your help.
00:21:18
Speaker
This child is struggling with something. Let's get curious. Let's connect. Let's make them feel psychologically safe. Let's see them and hear them and listen to them and believe them, believe their experience. You might not agree with it. And I do not your interpretation.
00:21:36
Speaker
They're telling you their experience. The only way to move them forward and back into um a psychologically safe space where they can actually use their thinking skills,
00:21:51
Speaker
is if you believe them and connect with them and help them solve whatever stumbling block is clearly in the way or else we wouldn't have the behavior. You bring up such a good point about a child being in their survival brain and how if they are in the space where they can be so feel safe, that that leads to the thinking, the the cognitive skills that we know we can get out of them. But when they're in that survival state,
00:22:20
Speaker
they can't access that readily. Can you explain that? And I know we've talked about polyvagal theory. Can you explain that to folks too, to help them understand, like it's it it it blows my mind that we as a society as a whole haven't tied the two together, that safety means like I'm more open to learning and more open to being creative and all the other things. But can you explain that?
00:22:45
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, sure. Well, When, you know, we have pretty primitive brains. So like initially there was a saber-toothed tiger and our brain would access fight or flight in order to survive, right? Get away from that saber-toothed tiger or fight it if you have a spear, right? You have to focus on saber-toothed tiger. Cannot pay attention to anything else, right? Nothing else in your environment will come in
00:23:18
Speaker
while you are dealing with the challenge of the saber to tiger, your life's on the line. Our brains, when we have a challenge can slip into that exact same mode. It may not be as really a saber to tiger, but as far as our brains are considered, it is a saber tiger.
00:23:34
Speaker
So I don't see anything else. I can't learn anything because learning is here when I'm relaxed and calm and I'm here, not when I'm in survival brain. So I can't take in any other information. I can't nothing.
00:23:48
Speaker
I have completely narrowed focus. And when I, um, when we can connect and calm that, that reflex that we have to protect ourselves and survive, then we broaden our perspective. Like we literally, the research shows Barbara Frederson's research shows our peritial vision actually expands.
00:24:20
Speaker
We see things in our environment that we didn't see before, right? We can take it all in to be able to begin to solve our problems and collaborate and do all the things that the adult is asking us to do.
00:24:34
Speaker
Yes. Right. We can access the skills that we do have in order to meet the expectations better. Right. Beautifully stated. So beautifully stated. yeah So that's like polyvagal without saying the word polyvagal. Yeah. yeah Yes. That's so good. i love how you communicated that.
00:24:53
Speaker
Is there, was that, was that moment in the classroom? Was that the the moment where you were like, I'm going to homeschool my children and and do it a different way? Yeah, um pretty much it was. Well, well I mean, is it was, yes, it was part of the moment.
00:25:08
Speaker
um My son kept saying to me every morning, I don't even know where he got the language from. I don't want to go in there. I don't want to go in there. He started out wanting to go in. He started out super excited very quickly. He was, don't want to go in there. You can, you can teach me everything I need to know. You can homeschool me. You can teach me everything I need to know. And he kept saying that to me every morning. And he was very verbal and easy to work with. And I can always like kind of reason with him.
00:25:34
Speaker
reasoned him back into the classroom. I wasn't listening. And I was reasoned him back into the classroom every morning. And, um One morning he said, I am not going back into that classroom again.
00:25:45
Speaker
And I talked him back into the classroom. And about 10 minutes later, the teacher came out and said, he cannot be in this classroom. He cannot be in here today. he's And i was like, what happened? He walked up into a child and he hit him.
00:26:00
Speaker
it was totally unprovoked. Nothing happened. Like, i you know, we can't have this in the classroom. No, he didn't. He's four years old. didn't like wallop the kid. He just, you know. And so And she walked away and he's just standing there next to me.
00:26:13
Speaker
So I get down to his level and I i actually asked the teacher, asked, who was it that he And I knew before she even answered who he was that he hit. And I'll tell you how I knew. So I got down to him next to his level and I said, um what's going on?
00:26:28
Speaker
And he said, I told you I'm not going back into that classroom. So I said over and over to him before that, always use your words, use your words, don't use your hands, use your words. And here he was using his words with me over and over and over again.
00:26:44
Speaker
And I was not listening. to He had no choice but to use his hands. And the child that he hit, the very first day of school, this child came up to him, got about an inch from his face and screamed at the top of his lungs. Now, my son has sensory integration dysfunction. So he's insanely sound sensitive. It's like a knife going through him.
00:27:10
Speaker
If sounds are loud. And I watched him and I couldn't do anything about it. was sitting in the corner. I couldn't do anything. And he stood there like shaking. He was, his entire nervous system was shattered.
00:27:23
Speaker
So if he had to pick one student, yeah he was going to have to smack to get out of that classroom. That was going to be the student. And it was. Yeah. Wow. Wow. You do such a good, you're a great storyteller, Joni. Like, let me tell you that.
00:27:40
Speaker
And I'm, I just, you, you brought up some things about the, the sensory over, you know, being overloaded by the sound and things like that. What are some other common, um, traits or, or things that a person who lives with ADHD will experience that someone else may not?
Understanding ADHD Traits and Challenges
00:28:00
Speaker
Yeah, lots of things. Um, I'm going to start that off by saying a couple of minutes ago, I said, believe your child. And now I'm going to say, believe your child.
00:28:12
Speaker
There's always a reason. If you're watching as the adult and you're like, nothing happened. There is always a reason. Something is always bothering them. And it might've started in the morning and just built as the day went on. So that's the thing with ADHD is that Now i'm going to talk globally about ADHD, but every brain is different. Every ADD-er is different, right? There are common threads and there lots of common threads. And that being said, it's really important for a parent to understand their child's lived experience with ADHD because it's unique to that child because the child has unique brain.
00:28:48
Speaker
So ADD-ers have like a more limited amount of bandwidth to... When you say, so are those interchangeable when you say ADD and ADHD?
00:29:00
Speaker
Yes, they're totally. Well, yes and no. It used to be two different things. ADD, ADHD, the hyperactivity piece was, you know, made it different, but now it's not. It's all ADHD.
00:29:12
Speaker
Okay. I learned something new today. I have more hyperactivity, but the thing is um hyperactivity actually could be externally seen or internally seen.
00:29:24
Speaker
So I might not look hyperactive, but my brain, oh boy, oh who boy, is hyperactive, right? So that's why it's just all one thing now.
00:29:35
Speaker
Got you. um But I do, I try to say ADHD-er. ADHD-er is easier to say, but so it's all the same. So thank you for pointing that out. Yeah, thank you. But there's like limited bandwidth before they wear out and their capability to manage stress and situations just is shorter.
00:29:58
Speaker
Right. And so um there's different, all different aspects of ADHD. So I'm trying to like compartmentalize it, but knowing when your bandwidth is, needs to be recharged and knowing when your child's bandwidth needs to be recharged is really important. So for example, i have two boys.
00:30:17
Speaker
My older one has ADHD. My younger one does not, there's three year difference. When we would sit down to do like math, for example, My older one who has ADHD could do 20 minutes of math and at minute 21, his head would explode.
00:30:33
Speaker
yeah like and He was done. like not i mean hit It was bad. It was just bad. So I would make sure that we did not hit minute 21 and at minute 19, I'm like, okay, let's take a break.
00:30:48
Speaker
and Seriously. my old My younger one who does not have ADHD I could say just one more, you're almost done. You're almost done. Like just let's sit for another 10 minutes.
00:31:00
Speaker
I could do that with him. And he could he could summon the resources. But when ADDers resources are depleted, they are depleted.
00:31:11
Speaker
Yeah. and Bad things will happen because they don't have anything left to give. Wow. So it makes me think of kind of like burnout. Like when you think about burnout and just being overwhelmed with so much stuff, when you talk about the hyperactivity, whether it be in their actions or in their brain, they are being overwhelmed with stuff nonstop.
00:31:32
Speaker
Great. That's exactly what's happening. That was happening. They're burning out and they're burning out much faster because on the inside than you can see on the outside and they're burning out much faster than other people would burn out. So by the time that child gets to school, um he has to use many executive function skills, right? Management skills in order to get to school. So he has to, so many things. He has to get dressed. He has to select his clothes. He has to get up out of bed. He has to, um you know, work.
00:32:05
Speaker
decide what he's going wear. He has to find his socks and find his shoes and get his book bag and eat breakfast. And there are so many executive functions involved that usually there's multiple meltdowns before the child even gets out the door.
00:32:22
Speaker
Right. And that's what I work with parents on a lot is like, how can we calm the morning routine? How can we reduce the expectations? How can we support the executive functions that are being called upon how can we use connection and humor to fortify the child in the moment because those things um create all the feel good you know hormones they create sartonin they create um just all the things that you need to be able to do the thing connection helps build those things
00:33:00
Speaker
So how do we build that into the morning routine so they can actually get out the door, not hysterical and with a screaming fight, right? But a lot of them don't get out the door without a fight. And they show up at the door of their classroom with this much bandwidth left for a whole day of being told what to do and how to do and not being able to meet expectations.
00:33:24
Speaker
Wow. Wow. That's powerful. Yeah. One thing I ah really appreciate appreciate about what you've shared is that no person with ADHD is the same, right? That we're all very different. And I think when I hear neurodivergence, sometimes eye cringe just based off that term because it we have these, you know,
00:33:47
Speaker
typical brains, these normal brains, and then we have these other brains. But like everybody's brain is different. And it's like we want to put things into nice, tidy boxes. And so all the ones that fit nice and tidy in this box, we classify this way.
00:34:01
Speaker
and And if they don't, we change we have a different category form. Yeah. There's a lot of things. What's that? There's something wrong with them. And how do we change? Exactly. And I was going to say often that carries a a deficit lens or there's it's stigmatized around that. But i personally know so many people, you include, like, like who who have ADHD and are superstars in so many areas. what What have you seen from people that you've worked with or your your your family that...
00:34:35
Speaker
highlights human potential with living with ADHD.
00:34:41
Speaker
You mean what makes ADHDers amazing? Is that what you're saying? Let's hear it. Yeah. So many things, so many things. It's funny because was talking to a couple the other day and the husband has ADHD and the wife does not. And we were talking and that causes a lot of problems and in marriages often if it's misunderstood. And I was going, we were discussing all the things that were amazing about this the husband that were seen as problems. And I'm like, need to shift our lens on this. Like, these are superpowers. And I was going on and and on, or not I was going on on, but like we were talking about that. And then afterwards I realized, oh, i have to reach out to the wife and make sure she realizes she's amazing, even though she doesn't have ADHD. Yeah.
00:35:25
Speaker
Even though you don't have ADHD. like Yeah. That's a beautiful frame. Oh, wow. Yeah. Wow. There's, you know, the creativity, the be the ability to think out of the box, the thing that gets them in trouble because they're always thinking out of the box is, is one of their amazing gifts.
00:35:44
Speaker
Right. yes And you so many entrepreneurs and creators of inventions have had ADHD. Yeah. because they think out of the box. They're not, um ah they do things their own way, right?
00:36:01
Speaker
They're not stuck with what is. They're thinking about, well, what could be? And how do I do that? No, I could do, you know, so that so many ADDers are, to have so much zest and so much passion.
00:36:16
Speaker
That's actually a really telltale sign of, well, couple of telltale signs, but one is, inconsistent skill sets. Like a child is way ahead of, you know, like ahead of the normal bell curve, right?
00:36:30
Speaker
Way ahead in some things, but way behind in other things. Like my son was, when we was, when when he was, um I don't know, he was probably like nine. He loved dinosaurs. So we went to the Museum Natural History in, think it's called the Field Museum in Chicago. And we set him up with a, um,
00:36:50
Speaker
paleontologist that worked there. And he's having a conversation, like nine, where he brings us into the back room and he's having conversation with this paleontologist that was like a PhD level conversation. My husband and I were staying there, we had no idea what they were talking about. And the the paleontologist is taking out fossils and handing them to my son. And I'm thinking, he's nine, he's going to drop it. Like, don't give him that. But they're having this like PhD level conversation.
00:37:17
Speaker
And at the same time, He didn't read yet. He couldn't read yet. Whoa. Because he had dyslexia. Wow. So he would listen to stuff and we would watch he'd watch all sorts of documentaries. you know and We had all sorts of things on tape. And like he absorbed in the way that his brain was ready to absorb it. He didn't read.
00:37:35
Speaker
He was a sponge. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. Oh, that superpower. Yeah. So these asynchronous skill sets are really confusing for parents. And to your point, we are in a very deficit-based society. So school parents, adults are looking at the things that the kids can't do and talk about like myopic vision. They are missing all the magnificence of this child and they are causing the child to miss their own magnificence and just think about what they can't do.
00:38:13
Speaker
What do you think would make either parenting or school better to highlight those things? Like what shift do we need to see in those institutions? Yeah.
00:38:25
Speaker
Yeah. Well, so much of the work that we do at MAP, right? Like so much of shifting from that deficit lens to strengths lens. Like what can they do? Yeah. This is a challenge, but like, what can they do? Let's do more of that.
00:38:39
Speaker
Give them opportunities for success. um Highlighting to them what's going well, like you did with the child. Like, tell me about when you were, you know, when you persevered.
00:38:50
Speaker
highlighting for them their strengths. So they know what's amazing about them and the things that they can do versus the things that they can't, you know? And when did you run into something that was hard for you?
00:39:02
Speaker
The thing that you can't do, how did you do it? Cause you did it. How exactly did you do that? What did you bring to that? That was amazing. Right. And so it's really helping shifting our own lens about um looking at what works instead of what doesn't and figuring out if something didn't like, how do i use what I bring? um That's a huge piece right there. That is a huge piece. It's just focus.
00:39:28
Speaker
And it's not about ignoring things that are hard, but it's about using what you do really well. It's amazing about you to address the challenge. When we think of, when we think about colored emotions and emotional regulation,
00:39:44
Speaker
Do emotions show up differently for people who have that over hyperpe the hyperactive mind? um Does that come up and how do they regulate?
00:39:55
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. So that is actually another telltale sign of, um well, ADHD is, i would describe it. that um Thomas Brown, actually.
00:40:06
Speaker
He's no longer alive. He just passed, but he was a brilliant um psychologist and and in the field of ADHD. And he describes it as, um, it's really a, um, it's an issue of regulation.
00:40:22
Speaker
It's a challenge in regulation of your executive functions, which are housed in your thinking brain. Right? So if you're challenged to regulate it challenges in regulation of all our management systems and our management systems are everything we do all the time. Right? If I'm going to reach out and pick up a um, a glass, right? i have to manage how fast my arm's going to go, how tightly I hold the glass so it doesn't slip out of my hand. um When I pick it up and I put it back down, I can't slam it down. I have to manage my physicality, right? And that I have to manage um my energy levels. have to manage my sustaining my effort. Like I'm managing myself all the time and all these skills of managing myself
00:41:12
Speaker
wear down the bandwidth, right? And so ADHD is a challenge in regulation of executive function skills, one of which is emotional regulation.
00:41:26
Speaker
So many ADDers fly off the handle, right? they They just have a huge reaction to things. Or some ADDers can't get excited about things. Like they, they they you know, under Emote or over emote, you know, they, they, so it's a regulation issue and emotional regulation is a very big piece. So when I would say my son could do 19 minutes of work, a math work,
00:41:55
Speaker
When he was done, he wasn't like, mom, I am spent. He was like, blah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Emotional regulation. You mentioned earlier how you one of your go-tos is breathing and connecting with other people, calling family, friends. What are some of the strategies that you give to your parents and to the kids in in that regard to regulating their emotions?
00:42:21
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
00:42:25
Speaker
Well, the very first, the very first thing I do, um, is self-compassion. Like, this is hard. Let me, let me take the cues from my body. Cause my body's telling me something.
00:42:41
Speaker
If I'm feeling, starting to feel tense or I'm starting to have shallow breathing or my face is getting hot and red, right? What are my physiological cues? It's self-awareness about my physiological cues. to tell me that my body is talking to me and my stomach hurts or, you know, I feel a lump in my throat or i just feel the, I can feel the blood in my veins because I'm like, oh my God.
00:43:07
Speaker
Notice how your body is speaking to you and then give yourself some compassion, just like you would give a friend like, oof, this is actually really hard for me right now. And it's okay.
00:43:19
Speaker
It's okay that this is hard. There's nothing wrong with that. It just is. And let me take some breaths. Let me take some breaths and use my polyvagal system, right? To calm that that sympathetic response of fight or flight.
00:43:36
Speaker
So let me breathe in for four counts. and Let me breathe out for eight. Let me breathe in for and let me do that like four or five times. And then I can start to think a little bit more clearly. I'm going start to notice by like breath four, I start to, especially since I practiced it, but this is true for everyone.
00:43:55
Speaker
Your body starts to look, your body wants to relax, right? Your body doesn't want to be all tense. So you're giving, you're cuing your body up to relax so you can think more clearly.
00:44:08
Speaker
So to answer that question, I would say, Notice when you start to feel agitated and activated. Don't wait until you're screaming at your child.
00:44:22
Speaker
Notice your body cues. And I would say the same thing to kids. um And then give yourself some compassion. Like, o this is really hard right now. Wow. i And then you can, so and then breathe.
00:44:37
Speaker
And you can start to think a little more clearly. Right. Right. that's that's how That's the beginning of the process. Your voice and affect in explaining that helped to regulate me.
00:44:55
Speaker
just in the moment. I think we, I think in co-regulating with other people, this is for people who are outside of, of you know, the person who is experiencing heavy emotion is to embody what Joni just showed and to demonstrate it with her voice, with her tone, with her hand gestures.
00:45:16
Speaker
And I think that that helps and goes a long way because you're you're talking about you were talking about self-compassion, but at the same time, you were extending compassion to other people.
00:45:27
Speaker
I'm curious where the capacity that you possess, how how did that develop over time? Like, were you always that compassionate and empathetic toward other folks or has that been something that's grown through your journey?
00:45:45
Speaker
Yeah. um Well, before I answer that question, it's a great question. Before I answer it, I just wanted I'm so glad that you brought up co-regulation because it's such a huge piece because of our children are um behaving in a way that's telling us they need help.
00:46:01
Speaker
It means they need help regulating. yeah And in order to the help that we can give them, they need our regulation to co-regulate with. They need to borrow it from us until they can get it back themselves.
00:46:14
Speaker
In order for them to regulate, I have to be regulated. So the screaming at the child that's already frustrated is is not helping the situation. That's just two dysregulated people instead of one.
00:46:28
Speaker
Right. Yeah. Yeah. So I, I'm really glad you brought that co-regulation up because it's, it's essential for parents help understand that. Like, no, it's not about changing that yeah It's about doing something differently so your child can access the skills they have.
00:46:47
Speaker
Yeah. um Yeah. I've always been. yeah Well, I mean, I didn't always have the language. Clearly did not always have the language. i didn't always know what was going on. And a lot of times it was painful for me because I was just really um sensitive to other people's feelings. And, um, yeah, it was really painful. lot of time It wasn't, ah it's not, it's a hard way actually to grow up, um, noticing where people are in pain and having trouble and, you know, and, and I didn't have, like I said, the language or the skillset really, I just noticed a lot and, and I would try and
00:47:37
Speaker
fix things. And I can't fix things. That's, that's really where my growth has come in. Quite honestly, Reggie is that like, I'm not a fix or any, like I can't fix it. And it's not my job to fix it.
00:47:49
Speaker
It's, it's how I can best help someone else, a child, a friend, someone I love is to be with them and support them and nourish them with With connection and and reflection, really, so they can see their own strengths and gifts.
00:48:12
Speaker
So then they can help themselves and know that they can help themselves.
00:48:19
Speaker
Wow. my i'm I'm thinking of... folks who may feel that they have ADHD, but that has gone undiagnosed.
Impact of ADHD Diagnosis on Life and Career
00:48:30
Speaker
um What would you say is the benefit of the diagnosis versus, I guess, just listening to your body and knowing what you need? Yeah. Yeah.
00:48:43
Speaker
Well, that's, um I wasn't diagnosed until i was in my fifties. So it's a pretty common story. that adults, especially like now, because there's so much research coming out about ADHD now. And for the longest time, all the research was about little boys.
00:49:02
Speaker
Everything was focused on little boys. And it was believed that adults couldn't have it. It was a child, little boy childhood problem that you grew out of. None of that's true, all right? It's ton of research and none of it's true. So um the diagnosis is important. It's very important.
00:49:22
Speaker
One, you know, for kids, it's important because it helps them get services in school. Right. So that's important. And for insurance purposes, it's important. But beyond that, right, as an adult, for example, when I was I was diagnosed when my son was diagnosed.
00:49:40
Speaker
So he was like 16 or so and I was like in my fifty s And when I got there, when I realized I had no idea I had ADHD. I was like the model of the undiagnosed ADD-er because a lot of times girls are not diagnosed.
00:49:59
Speaker
They don't cause a problem in class. They are quiet. they they they um
00:50:08
Speaker
This is true for a lot of ADD-ers actually, but they work 10 times as hard to do the thing, no one knows they're struggling. So there's a ton of anxiety and depression that's misdiagnosed.
00:50:21
Speaker
It's diagnosed as anxiety and depression instead of ADHD, right? So no understanding ADHD and my lived experience with it helps me understand my brain and helps me understand why what's hard is hard.
00:50:37
Speaker
And if I can understand why it's hard, then I can problem solve for it. Right. I can figure out how to do it differently instead of doing the thing that doesn't work harder and just just doesn't work more and makes me feel worse and causes more overwhelm and more negative self-talk. This is working for everybody but me. And I am trying so hard and I'm being told I'm just not trying hard enough.
00:51:03
Speaker
Right. Is demoralizing. And so understanding your brain, that's why it's important to get diagnosed. There are such big consequences to not knowing that you have ADHD for adults, especially like in the work world, for example, or or in things that you're trying to accomplish, right? There there are consequences in your marriage because there's a lot of consternation and strife and not understanding and arguments between spouses, one who has it, one is one who don't, because the spouse who doesn't have it thinks that
00:51:39
Speaker
The ADD is doing things on purpose to them, you know, forgetting things because they don't pay attention and they don't care. And like all this, the whole story around it, that's just not ah absolutely not true. Meanwhile, the ADD is dealing with shame because they hurt somebody who they care about. And they why can't they remember to do that thing and pick things up on the way home? Like, so there's a lot of shame. You just scratch the surface and there's a lot of shame. So,
00:52:05
Speaker
my experience was, um, I went to, know, I went to college, I went to law school, I graduated the top of my class in law school. I worked so hard.
00:52:17
Speaker
Then I started working in a law firm and the things that the environment called on me to do did not fit into my strengths or how I do them.
00:52:32
Speaker
And so uh, was completely in overwhelm and I couldn't do the things. And here I was like this, I was smart. I, would I could do the job, but I couldn't do the job because of the environment, because of, because of the lots of things about the environment. One of which was, it was not friendly and not connected.
00:52:56
Speaker
And my, One of my top strengths, right, is relational and connecting. And if I'm not in an environment that's nourishing me, I can't access my skill set very well.
00:53:09
Speaker
So if I'm in a hostile, what I feel is in a hostile environment, i'm come I'm working in a fight or flight state and I can't access my skill set. And that's what was happening to me.
00:53:19
Speaker
so i ended up with chronic fatigue and i ended up with anxiety and i ended up with depression and i was on medication for it like all of these things i was being treated for for anxiety and depression and and i was not functioning very well right and i was trying so hard and i so i would do this effort and that effort you know i i worked in a smaller law firm and I, or I worked in this kind of law or that, or did, or i I was just trying so hard to keep moving forward, not knowing that I just kept bumping into the same wall because I didn't understand why what was happening to me was happening to me.
00:54:06
Speaker
And you mentioned that you were diagnosed in your fifties. Is that a common thing for women to be diagnosed later or just misdiagnosed, undiagnosed?
00:54:17
Speaker
Very common for women to be diagnosed later. Because so many women are diagnosed when their kids are diagnosed. First of all, ADHD is highly inherited, right? So if your kid has it, chances are the mom or dad have it.
00:54:32
Speaker
Or the grandparent or the aunt or uncle. Like it's in the family. So- Yeah. so um So what was the question? which yeah just If you you were diagnosed late, is that common ah among amongst women? Yeah, it's very common because women don't um cause a problem. like the way they The way a lot of times we're socialized to function is to get smaller and get quieter and um not make a fuss. If
00:55:07
Speaker
you know if i'm so Yeah. so we don't disrupt our environment. And the people that get attention are the disruptors, right?
00:55:20
Speaker
Many times women are not the disruptors. And to point back to something you said earlier, the disruption of the environment, the external environment, right? Exactly. So the boys may disrupt the external while the girls are internally having a disruption their environment. They're disrupting their internal environment.
00:55:40
Speaker
The disruption is disrupting their environment. Yeah. And causing a ton of negative self talk self-talk often, a ton of um lack of confidence.
00:55:54
Speaker
And where you know this is where the anxiety and the depression comes in because of massive amounts of negative self-talk. So it's this internal disruption versus external disruption.
00:56:06
Speaker
I think speaking from the experience of living with ADHD and the way um that you're able to communicate that, it will help people. feel and It does help people feel extremely seen in their experience because the way the words that you use and the way that you phrase those i'm thinking about certain people in my life and i'm like oh they have to listen to this so that they don't feel so isolated from the the the world that they live in because they have experiences in the ways that you've described them so thank you that that's a gift that's a true gift sure you know when i first learned i an adhd
00:56:49
Speaker
but I did all my research around my son. Like I was trying to help my son. But when I realized that I had it and then didn't research around it, it felt like all the puzzle pieces of my life finally fit together in a picture that made sense.
00:57:07
Speaker
It, my life finally made sense to me. And that was so empowering. And at first there's a whole big grief around it. Honestly, there's this whole process of emotions that flood in. And it starts with grief because um all these missed opportunities, things that were so hard, things I didn't do, things I couldn't do, um not knowing why, feeling like not living up to expectations, right? And not knowing why, just all the negative and messaging, all of this stuff, it helps it, all the pieces come into place.
00:57:43
Speaker
And you're like, oh, okay now i Now it makes sense. And now I can move forward in a way that supports me. Yes. ah That's so beautiful. Joni, we could we could talk for hours and hours and you have so much knowledge, even beyond ADHD. You're just a wealth of knowledge and I appreciate you. But before we close out, I want to do another segment.
00:58:07
Speaker
um It's a fill in the blank. And so I'm going to think of some things and you just let me know the first thing that comes to mind. Okay. Okay.
00:58:18
Speaker
The biggest misconception about ADHD is blank.
00:58:24
Speaker
That it's not being able to to pay attention.
00:58:28
Speaker
Good parenting with someone who has ADHD means blank. Listening and believing them.
00:58:38
Speaker
Self-compassion looks like.
00:58:50
Speaker
This is hard.
00:58:55
Speaker
And if I could give any advice to someone out there who has ADHD, it would be blank.
00:59:07
Speaker
Learn more about it. Educate yourself. Understand how your brain works and have self-compassion. And you're amazing.
00:59:18
Speaker
You're amazing. So many gifts. So many gifts. Ah, this was a gift. Joni, you are a gift to the MAP program, to the University of Pennsylvania, to your family, to this world, to my life. And I appreciate you for sharing so much of your gift with us all.
00:59:38
Speaker
um If there are folks out there who want to get in touch with you, who want to learn more, what are some resources? What some places they can reach you? Yeah, so... um my, you can email me at, um, corn C O R N underscore Joni at yahoo.com.
00:59:58
Speaker
And i always do a free consultation with somebody and, um, you know, just to give people an idea of how I work and how we work and what they can learn and what coaching even looks like or feels like. Um, yeah, I would say that's, and, and, um,
01:00:18
Speaker
I can give a lift or list of resources for people to start. There's a lot of information um out there about ADHD. Some of it's good and some it's not so good. So a reliable source of reading material to learn um and get valid information about ADHD. And i just want to add that, Reg, for all those things that you just beautiful, kind, lovely things that you just said about me,
01:00:49
Speaker
Right back at you. Because I just think you're absolutely amazing. The work that you do, especially in schools some with young kids and the the books and like, it's got to start. That's where it's got to start.
01:01:01
Speaker
If we're going to make things different, if we're going to give people this knowledge, it has to start with kids so they can grow into adults that are wise and kind and compassionate and thoughtful and insightful.
01:01:19
Speaker
right? And connected and connecting. So thank you for going right where you need to go, like right to the core of where it needs to start.
01:01:29
Speaker
Yes, i appreciate that. And I receive that. And um we're doing the work together and we continue to do it and making sure that individuals feel seen, they feel heard and they feel valued. And that's what I'm taking away from this episode is to, to be more curious, to be more compassionate and to understand other people's journey or attempt to.
01:01:56
Speaker
And that is a big part of it all because we are, we are all trying as hard as we can. And we need a little help along the way. Yeah. We're all trying. Yeah. And I say to parents too, I'm like, you know,
01:02:09
Speaker
Your kids are people. They're just smaller. but They're people. They're just like you. Exactly like you. How do you want to be treated? That's real.
01:02:21
Speaker
Dang, that's real. Joni, with all the things that you could be doing and all the places you could be, i appreciate you being here with me embracing vulnerability. Well, Reggie, thank you for asking me to be here. And i super excited to have this conversation with you. i love talking to you.
01:02:38
Speaker
Same. Yeah. Thank you for joining us in another episode of Vulnerability Muscle. If you've enjoyed these conversations around vulnerability, please consider leaving a review. Your feedback not only motivates us to continue to do the work that we do, but it allows other people to witness the power of vulnerability. Share your thoughts.
01:02:58
Speaker
on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Spotify Podcasts, or wherever you're listening from. And don't forget to spread the word. You can follow us at vulnerabilitymuscle on Instagram and me personally at Reggie D. Ford across all platforms.
01:03:12
Speaker
Visit vulnerabilitymuscle.com for additional resources and support. And remember, embracing vulnerability is not a sign of weakness. It is the source of your greatest strength.
01:03:24
Speaker
Sometimes it's uncomfortable. but most workouts are. So keep flexing that vulnerability muscle.