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061 - One Body, Two DNA: Unraveling Identity, Nature & Nurture Through Fiction
0 Playsin 18 hours
“What if your left side belonged to your father and your right side to your mother—down to your DNA?”
That’s the haunting premise behind Split, a gripping novel inspired by a rare real-life diagnosis: chimerism. In this episode, Dr. Michael Swartz—a transplant and pediatric cardiac surgery researcher turned novelist—joins Reggie D. Ford to explore identity, science, and storytelling. From the quiet roar of unwritten stories in his mind to 100+ rejections on the path to publishing, Michael opens up about the challenges of switching from academic to creative writing and why fiction can be both a lie and a truth-teller. They dig into what it means to be shaped by genetics and environment, how small physical traits can carry deep psychological weight, and the liberating power of simply putting words on the page.
Call to Action:
If you’ve ever wrestled with the question “Who am I really?”, this episode is for you. Tune in now to discover how a rare diagnosis, a drive between cities, and a lifelong passion for helping others became a beautiful, bold exploration of identity and belonging.
Guest Contact Info:
Website: michaelswartzwrites.com
Book: Split available on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Books-A-Million
Host Contact Info:
Website: reggiedford.com
Social: @reggiedford on all platforms
Key Quotes / Takeaways:
- “Writing is like a game of chess. The story gets louder when the moves start to make sense.”
- “A chimera is someone with two sets of DNA—often the result of one twin absorbing the other in utero.”
- “Everybody’s different. Their biology, their upbringing, their path—and that’s something to celebrate.”
Recommended
Transcript
Exploring Genetic Chimerism
00:00:00
Speaker
It's the rare situation where there's two fraternal twins. Unfortunately, one of them dies and the genetic material is absorbed by the other. The child that's born has two different sets of DNA.
00:00:12
Speaker
For example, their hair color may different between their left and the right side. Their eye color can be a little bit different between their left and the right side. And to me, I thought that was a perfect paradox.
00:00:24
Speaker
especially for a nature versus nurture theme where kids are always worried about which parent they're going to end up being like.
Introducing 'Vulnerability Muscle' Podcast
00:00:31
Speaker
Welcome to Vulnerability Muscle, the inspiring podcast, challenging norms, and helping you redefine vulnerability as a strength.
00:00:39
Speaker
I'm your host, Reggie D. Ford. Each episode of Vulnerability Muscle dives into a variety of topics such as mental health, social issues, and mindset shifts.
00:00:49
Speaker
We explore the power of vulnerability and fostering meaningful connections, healing, building resilience, and promoting personal growth. Sometimes these conversations are uncomfortable, but good workouts often are.
Meet Michael Swartz
00:01:04
Speaker
So join us and flex that vulnerability muscle. Welcome to this episode of Vulnerability Muscle. I'm your host, Reggie D. Ford. Today with me, I have an amazing guest. His name is Michael Swartz. Michael writes about protagonists that have a unique medical or scientific diagnosis.
00:01:22
Speaker
The idea for writing his debut novel Split came after meeting a, now you have to tell me what this means. Chimera. Chimera patient. We're going to talk about what that means later. After spending way too much time in college, one bachelor's degree, two master's degree, and a PhD, we're going to put Dr. Swartz has worked as a physician's assistant specializing in adult transplant and pediatric cardiac surgery while running a research lab that investigates the outcomes of children born with congenital heart disease.
00:01:58
Speaker
He has co-authored 70 scientific manuscripts. Wow. published in the Journal of the American College of Cardiology and the New England Journal of Medicine.
00:02:09
Speaker
He plays guitar and piano when he can, coaches baseball and softball, and lives with his wife, two kids, and a Bernice Mountain Dog in Buffalo, New York.
The Power of Storytelling
00:02:20
Speaker
Go Bills!
00:02:21
Speaker
Yes, Michael. Thank you so much for for ah agreeing to be on the show. I'm so excited to have you. Thanks so much for having me. I appreciate it. Yeah, absolutely. And I want to start, um before we jump into the core of the message today, I want to ask you just, how is your heart? What's on your heart today? How you feeling?
00:02:43
Speaker
i'm I'm feeling pretty good. you know I'm pretty excited to to be on your show and have this opportunity. That's one of the great things I think about actually you know writing writing literature and writing different things is that you get to actually meet a bunch of different people and a bunch of different backgrounds and and our paths would have probably never crossed, probably never crossed if if I hadn't hadn't to worked on that. And so I'm kind of excited and excited to enjoy the opportunity and talk with you for for a few minutes.
00:03:13
Speaker
ah I love that. And I love that you pointed out our paths may have not
Vulnerability with Michael Swartz
00:03:18
Speaker
crossed. um Had you not written your so your book, I wrote a book that has transformed into a lot of conversations like this. And i think that's the power of story. I think that's the power of vulnerability and creativity and our expression because it helps us connect. And so that's what this podcast is about. It's about connecting. It's about learning people's stories, what motivates them, what makes them tick. And I'm excited today we're going to talk about
00:03:46
Speaker
nature versus nurture genetics. And I don't think there's anybody better to talk about that with than you. So we are we are so blessed to have you. But before we get into that, I have a couple of softball questions, if you will. There may be some- soft and Like softie questions or actually like a 10 or a 12 inch softball question. yeah You'll know from the first one. Okay. All right. I'm i'm ready.
00:04:13
Speaker
Batter up. All right, Michael. All What comes to mind when you hear the word vulnerability? ah Someone or something that may you know ah someone or something that that may be actionable by something else. So they're they're in a position where may ah change their you know something may change their life How's that?
00:04:41
Speaker
Wow. I like that. I like that. I hear vulnerability is life changing. So that's really cool.
00:04:49
Speaker
Michael, what do you do to center yourself, to ground yourself if you're feeling overwhelmed, stressed, or maybe even depressed?
From Scientist to Author
00:04:57
Speaker
I'm a big fan of music and I'm a big fan of exercise.
00:05:00
Speaker
i ah I play guitar and I play piano and that kind of gets me to, I guess, a Zen place, if you will. And and i I like to run. I like to bike. you know, just to be outdoors whenever I can try to get as much vitamin D as I possibly can here in the city of Buffalo.
00:05:18
Speaker
Um, but, but those types of things to me, keep me active and and kind of wash away the cobwebs that kind of form after, after a day. o i love that. Those are all great. Uh, music exercise, being outside in nature, wash away the cobwebs. Uh, I want to read a lot of your work. I like, I like this already.
00:05:39
Speaker
What is one of your favorite childhood memories? Wow. my fate One of my favorite childhood memories. um
00:05:54
Speaker
You know, I'm going to go with a baseball Actually, i yeah i was playing catcher, and it was the ah the World Series in our town's Little League, and it was a ground ball to shortstop with two outs, or sorry, with one out, and the shortstop threw the ball to the first base side, a home plate, and the runner came around, and i blocked the plate with my left leg, trapped the ball, and then swung around and got him out.
00:06:22
Speaker
Let's go. Let's go. Oh, man, that's a good one. I can visualize that. So I appreciate you painting that picture. That's so sweet. That's so sweet.
00:06:33
Speaker
Tell us a little bit more about about your story before becoming an author, before becoming ah a scientist who's studying all of the
Inspiration Behind 'Split'
00:06:42
Speaker
work that you're doing. like Give us a little background to paint that picture.
00:06:46
Speaker
Sure. So I grew up in a small town outside of Albany, New York. And I kind of knew that I wanted to go into some type of healthcare. care I wasn't sure if I wanted to be a physician or not. So i I actually did my undergrad in Buffalo and got my degree as a physician's assistant.
00:07:03
Speaker
And then I worked for three three years in Syracuse before I started going back to school and decided that I didn't really want to go to medical school. I wanted to go to graduate school. So i ah I got a couple of master's degrees and got a couple of PhDs and met my wife, who was a medical student. Wait, a couple of PhDs? okay.
00:07:22
Speaker
okay met Met my wife, who was a medical student there. And then we we moved to Rochester for ah for a few years while she was doing her training. And then We actually moved to Buffalo probably about 10 years ago when she finished.
00:07:37
Speaker
and And don't know, my I was always kind of writing scientifically ever since I got my master's and my PhD work. But i I actually started driving back and forth mostly between Buffalo and Rochester, where I was where i am still working.
00:07:52
Speaker
And I kind of had some stories in my head and i had all that time. It's about an hour and a half drive between Buffalo and Rochester. And I... kind of started thinking about stories and the stories in my head started getting louder and louder. And I got more and more details into them. i'm like, all right, well, let's see if I can put it down on a piece of paper.
00:08:13
Speaker
I thought that my scientific background would make it really easy and I'd be really good. And that was far from the truth. I mean, I was pretty horrible. and But I worked at it and got some advice from a bunch of smart people and, you know, kind of at least got my first novel out now. So,
00:08:32
Speaker
that's That's my story in a nutshell, I guess. That's amazing. That's amazing. You said something that stood out to me. You said the stories in my head got louder and louder. Can you describe what that sensation or what that that audible experience is like for someone who may have had a calling or may have had you know something inside of them talking to them, saying that this is what you are going to do and probably haven't chased that dream? Can you explain what that was like for you?
00:09:01
Speaker
Yeah, it's it's I always have something in the background of my mind. i don't know if that's some people have that. That's that's certainly me. I'm always thinking about something. And and so so the more I start thinking about it, the like sort of the louder it gets. And so it's to me like writing is actually sort of like a game of chess.
00:09:18
Speaker
You kind of put the pieces all on there that on the on the on the board and all your characters, different chess pieces. And you kind of look around and you like you move a piece around. And then you're like, yeah, you know I don't think I like that. And then you move them back. And then you move them forward. And you move them to the different positions just to see how things are going to go. And the the more you get their actions succinct and and you like what's going on, to me, the story gets louder and it gets easier to write.
00:09:47
Speaker
That's really cool. I like how you described that in a chess metaphor. I had a similar experience when I wrote my book. um with with like just hearing stuff nonstop.
00:09:59
Speaker
And it was, you know i wrote a memoir, so it was it was nonfiction, but still very similar in the way that you talk about that. like Their characters in the book, though they're real people or you know um amalgamations of people and different things like that.
00:10:14
Speaker
It was this sense of incompletion that kept the stories loud in my head. And so when I would lay down, I would say, ah there's, I gotta add that story. I forgot to talk about that or I actually wanna remove that part of the story and and all of these different pieces and parts. And then when I knew it was time to publish, it was when those stories just silence.
00:10:37
Speaker
It was like a piece for all the work and all the creation in the chess game. It was checkmate at that point. And so i love i love that. i love that analogy. How difficult was it for you to shift from scientific writing to a
Writing Challenges and Themes
00:10:54
Speaker
novel? Like those are two different skill sets. And you said you were horrible at first, but you kept going. Like, what was that process like?
00:11:01
Speaker
I knew nothing. I mean, I knew absolutely nothing. and And so scientific writing is all, you know, stating facts, no contraction, no voice, very flat. Like you're you're not providing, I mean, the the end of a paper is usually some of your opinion and some of your conjecture. But for the most part, it's all like These are the facts as as they are, whether they're your facts or somebody else's facts. And so, I i mean, I started writing basically, you know, fiction in that voice. And it's I mean, it's horrible. There's there's no dynamic part to any of it. And so yeah I would I would reread, you know, sections of my text. And even I could tell like this is ah this is like a heightened moment with a whole lot of tension and there's no tension and you feel no tension. And so it's it it took me a while to go back and try to look at everything and really try to think about how to incorporate voice into all of that, to add more dynamic portions to the text and add more tension so that the reader could actually
00:12:07
Speaker
feel the tension that I was trying to portray. at That took a few years. I'm still probably not very good at it, to be honest with you. There are certainly people that are better, but at least I'm, I think I'm at least better than I was. That's, that's as much as I can say. Yeah. Yeah. I'm curious what, because I see some books behind you, what books inspired you? What books did you pull from? you know you You had a sense of what tension felt like and noticed that it wasn't in your book. Were there books that you drew from in in creating your own?
00:12:39
Speaker
Yeah, i I read a bunch of john green book John Green's books. I mean, I think he's a phenomenal YA author that you know incorporates a lot of different ideas and feelings and and And energy and emotion in a lot of his writing. So I tried to tried and probably didn't succeed very well, but tried nonetheless to try to incorporate some of his ideas and into into my own.
00:13:03
Speaker
Yeah, that's cool. That's cool. I think we find inspiration from so many different areas of life. and your book Split was inspired by a patient that you had.
00:13:15
Speaker
Can you speak to this patient, describe them in in as much detail as you like, but what stood out about this patient that really influenced the book?
00:13:26
Speaker
So i i was I wanted to write a nature versus nurture book, and I was looking for my twist. Like the you know the nature versus nurture concept has been around forever, maybe not forever, but at least a couple hundred years. and But there's everybody kind of has their own twist. And I really couldn't figure out mine. And I learned about this patient who is a chimera that was just coming to the office for just a re re two routine echocardiogram just to look at pictures of their heart.
00:13:56
Speaker
and and And describe what chimera is. Sorry. So a chimera is anything with two different types of DNA. So a chimera is, could be somebody that had like a bone marrow transplant, because obviously the the recipient of the bone marrow transplant keeps some of the donor DNA inside of them.
00:14:15
Speaker
Um, It's an old Greek term from ah an angry looking goat with a serpent's head and fire breathing tail. I don't remember all the details to be honest with you. but But ah it's it's anything with two different types of DNA.
00:14:31
Speaker
And for for our purposes, what I'm looking at was ah what's called a ah ah essentially a fraternal chimera. um ah fraternal um chimera where basically it's it's the rare situation where there's two fraternal twins that early in gestation, when they're essentially a fetus developing, unfortunately one of them dies and the genetic material is absorbed by the other.
00:14:58
Speaker
And so the result is that the the person that's born or the the child that's born has two different sets of DNA. And there can be all sorts of different types of those folks, but they can end up with a situation where, for example, their hair color may be different between their left and their right side. Their eye color can be a little bit different between their left and their right side. And to me, I thought that was a perfect paradox, especially for a nature versus nurture theme where kids are always worried about which parent they're going to end up being like.
00:15:31
Speaker
And so, if for example, in in my situation, the character Ethan, his ah the characteristics on his left side line up with his father and the characteristics on his right side line up with his mother.
00:15:43
Speaker
And he's then becomes worried about which side is going to become in control. Because all we can look at is obviously, especially when we're younger, is look in the mirror and see the physical traits that we have. And when you when you keep looking in the mirror and you see something, one side on the left lining up with your father, and especially if they turn out to be not a not a so good person, and this traits on your right hand side line up with your mother, who is a good person, you as a kid could get
Character Development in 'Split'
00:16:10
Speaker
pretty worried. and Like, we who who am I going to be?
00:16:13
Speaker
Wow, wow. I'm curious about that. So when you say the traits on the left side versus the right side, you mean like the physical traits that people can see? Yep. So there's ah there's a singer called Taylor Mule.
00:16:26
Speaker
I don't know you've ever heard of her and her or not, but she she came out as a chimera. She's probably the the the more the more famous one or the most famous one, if you will. But if hey you if you Google her, you'll see that she i think she has two different colored eyes or two slightly different colored eyes. And she has some red patches on her left versus her right side. Those were kind of some of the other Hallmark things.
00:16:50
Speaker
Wow. and And there are some other subtleties. And it's like split right down the middle. That's really interesting. Yeah. um And there are some other subtleties that can happen that I kind of exercise a little bit with the book. Some people have different toes, if you will, like the great toe is longer than the second great toe versus the second great or the second toe is longer than the big toe the There's another thing called, for example, a hitchhiker's thumb. It's a thumb that can bend back a little bit more rather than be straight. And so I kind of play around with those a little bit to try to further accentuate the differences between Ethan's left and right side.
00:17:33
Speaker
Oh, wow. wow so Wow. So how does the left versus the right, how do you draw parallels to nature versus nurture in that dynamic? Because I feel like that's a good way of playing on those two.
00:17:51
Speaker
Yeah. So so the the the chimera part of it all is basically... the, the, that's the genetics of it all. That's, that's the, the, the phenotype or how somebody looks based upon their DNA or based upon the genetics. But the nurture part is obviously then essentially the house that he, that he grows up in. So when his, when his father becomes violent, it kind of becomes an issue as far as, you know, How much of it is his genetics that his father is, is left him with on his left side? How much of it is his genetics that his mother has left him with in his right side? And how much of it is he's, he's living with both of them.
Target Audience and Themes
00:18:30
Speaker
And then how much, essentially, how, how is he going to turn out to be like his mother or father after living through these experiences? oh Wow. and And so you were creating this character with one, a patient in mind, but then you have experience, you have the background of of your own personal life.
00:18:52
Speaker
Does any of your personal life show up in this book? Not much. there's There's a couple of little scenes. ah There's an allergy scene that I actually got kind of erased from the from the book in editing that that I was probably the nightest for, if you will. um you know I lived in Syracuse for a little while, so I kind of used some of that area and region, especially because I had the novel set in the in the early mid-90s. Syracuse was kind of a nice town for me because it
00:19:23
Speaker
kind of a little bit of a city, but as soon as you drive like 10, 15 miles out of the city, you can hit a bunch of farmland. And so I like the idea of, of Ethan, especially in his family kind of being isolated, if you will, the, cause the, you know, the less information you have, the less influenced by others you have, the, the more the influence by potentially your parents.
00:19:45
Speaker
um So, so I would say there's those things, but apart from that, ah To the best of my knowledge, I haven't looked at my left and right side, but I'm not a chimera. Although I will tell you, the first ah the first literary class I was part of or literary group I was part of during COVID, we did like an online Zoom thing. And one of the women that was there, her son was a chimera and it freaked her out.
00:20:10
Speaker
Wow. So they they exist. So yeah she used to make fun of him because she said that she, she said she always said that his left side ate his right or that he ate his baby sister or something. um But yeah.
00:20:27
Speaker
what is um that That makes me think, like, what is the, is there a stigma around being a chimera or having having DNA in that way? i don't think there's much of a stigma. I think it's just when you're a kid, if you especially if you have two different colored eyes, it's amazing how, how you know, those subtle differences will make somebody who is not very nice exercise and, you know,
00:20:53
Speaker
use that difference to just bully and try to destroy the outsider. and And so I think there's there's that type of stigma. I don't think there's much of a stigma beyond that, because apart from the the subtleties of the eyes and maybe the hair and some maybe perhaps even some of the red marks, you know, you wouldn't really know otherwise until you actually sat and looked really, really closely at somebody.
00:21:17
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely. ah that ah I'm curious, I want to go back to the the story, the book, and and give me, i guess, your ideal reader for the book. who Who picks this book up, falls in love with it, and and continues to to champion you and your authorship?
00:21:39
Speaker
think it's anybody over the age of like 15. think it can, ah you know, 13, 14, 15. I think it it can appeal to a lot of, you know, adolescent, young adult readers trying to figure out where they are in their life, how they take information and and how their parents and their environment influence them. And I think it also can probably appeal to, you know, older adults, book club fiction, because it's, to me, it's kind of an interesting story looking at at how,
00:22:06
Speaker
you know a young kid is working through his problems as far as trying to figure out what who which parent he's more like, which parent he's not, is quite as like. Because obviously at any adult to zip was at one point an adolescent and they worked mostly through those same issues and had probably some of those similar thoughts as well.
00:22:26
Speaker
So I think it's really anybody over the age of, you know, probably 13, 14, 15. There are some, I tried to keep it no graphic, but there are some, some situations in there. I wouldn't really want to have a less than a 12 year old reading the book and for, for the most part, but beyond that, I think it would probably appeal to anybody else.
00:22:44
Speaker
yeah Do you think the book inspires people to to take a professional or academic journey as you did? Does it does it create that interest in the the the science of it all?
00:22:58
Speaker
I mean, ah it's it's hard for me to say how somebody else is going to react. i would I would say no, but that doesn't mean that somebody else wouldn't. I tried to keep most of the science out of it.
00:23:09
Speaker
okay i mean, there's there's a little bit of science. There's a little bit of, you know, science and scientists that kind of go in and help the story, the science aspect of the story along. But I tried to keep it more of a a literary work than a scientific work, because for the most part, there's if you're If you're writing a book that's very science heavy, then kind of closes out the number and the percentage of readers that that could be interested in it.
00:23:35
Speaker
I hear that. Yeah, for sure. i'm I'm back in school now. I'm getting my second master's degree. So I'm following suit. I'm following suit, Michael. and What are you studying?
00:23:47
Speaker
I'm studying a master's of applied positive psychology and it is, is phenomenal, but it's the first time that I've had to read scholarly articles on a regular basis. And and it it, that itself is a, a skill to, to be able to do it and do it efficiently and effectively ah to pull out the the right amount of information because, you know, especially if you're building papers or theses, like like you have to read a
Fiction vs. Nonfiction Writing
00:24:18
Speaker
lot. And if you're, you know, going through every line, every word, trying to dissect it all, it's going to be very difficult. And so,
00:24:26
Speaker
ah you know That's why I was so curious about you know shifting because those are two different types of reading. One, you you read for pleasure. Some people may read the the scientific articles for pet for pleasure, but I feel like you know the the novels are for pleasure and it's ah it's just a different different setup, different form of reading. so um Well, they're lies. I mean, that's the great part about fiction is the whole thing is a lie.
00:24:51
Speaker
yeah yeah i've all all the academic stuff you're reading is actually true. It's fact. The yeah beauty about fiction is that you're going to tell somebody a story you're like, Hey, by the way, I mean, your memoir is would, would fall under nonfiction. So that wouldn't work. But for fiction, it's like, Hey, I'm going to tell you this lie and I'm going to try to entertain you for the next 10 hours versus versus academic work is, well, this is a true fact. It's like reading the paper.
00:25:19
Speaker
Yeah. That's, so I love that. I love that. Oh man. When I first saw the title of the book, I, the first thing that came to mind for me was the movie split where the main character has, you know, just ah dissociative identity disorder and has a bunch of different personalities. think like 25 different personalities or something like that. One personality is ah an old woman, another is a little boy, you got, you know, teenage girl, one has diabetes, the rest don't. And it's just, it's very interesting. I highly recommend the movie ah to people who are interested in psychology and people.
00:26:01
Speaker
And I'm, but I'm curious, do do, do chimera patients, do they have that difference in personality if their left side has DNA from one side and then their right side has a different type of DNA?
00:26:14
Speaker
No, the so the chimera is more of of physical differences that exist. So the the person should have their own personality as long as they don't have any psychological ah disorder, if you will. They're not like a two-face where, for example, there might be you know an evil and ah on one side and a good physical side on the other, and then they have a split personality between those two physical traits. For the most part, these are just physical differences in their DNA, and their personality is formed essentially – mostly by the experiences that they have in their life. And so there's no real difference between the between the left and the right side as as far as a personality goes.
Publishing Journey and Resilience
00:26:52
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. want to talk about the process of writing because I think you you mentioned or ah at one point in one of our previous discussions about ah wanting to think about a different title for the book because of the the movie and things like that.
00:27:07
Speaker
but I'm curious, what the writing process was like for you, because so many people ask me and I'm sure are asking you about publishing and writing books and what that process looks like.
00:27:21
Speaker
can you Can you walk us through that? what What the team looked like? What the steps of the process were for you? Because feel like they were they're different for every author. And i'm I'm always curious into learning what that process looks like.
00:27:35
Speaker
You mean as far as like from from first draft to to the book goes? Yeah, if it you idea to you got some words on paper and then where you went from there.
00:27:46
Speaker
So i like I like to have a rough outline before I start typing. I kind of don't have the overall maybe chapter to chapter outline, but I know that this is where the character is going to start and this is where they're going to end and this is going to be the high point arc in between, and maybe a couple other points in between the high point and the beginning and the end.
00:28:05
Speaker
And then I just start to write. And honestly, to me, it's just, you just have to write. Just put words down on paper and force yourself to write 1,500, 2,000 words day. And patch it like,
00:28:17
Speaker
um and patch it like She's one ah she's a phenomenal author. She just says you you you have to sit and write. And I wholeheartedly believe that. If if you're going to sit in front of your computer, just write, sit down and type. I don't know what to write, even if you don't have anything any idea what write. But you have to physically write. And then you get a whole bunch of stuff on paper. And then you go back and look and you're like, ah, you know what? Half of that is probably not any good.
00:28:44
Speaker
But at least you have half of it that is. And then from there, can kind of maybe get 75% of it that's good. And then you get down to maybe, you know, 85%. And then you're 95% and then 100%. And then to me, once you've got, as a writer, something that's good, then you have to send it to a bunch of other people who don't have any bias. Because as a writer, there's just so much bias.
00:29:08
Speaker
There are so many dearies that we all have that, you know, Like, oh, this is the this is the best part of the text right here. And then somebody else reads it and like, yeah, but it doesn't really fit. So it just has to go. And then as a writer, you have to just, all right, well, kill off kill off your friendly passages and and move on. and ah And for me, I went and looked for a bunch of agents and, you know, I got a couple of requests and,
00:29:34
Speaker
couple you know Some interest here and there, but it after a while, i I needed something to physically have. And I found ah a couple of different ah publishers that were interested. And I i also ultimately settled with Kohler Publishing and they they've been they've been very good to me. They, you know. We have kind of a bit of a hybrid model, so I provided some money up front.
00:29:54
Speaker
um But they they gave me a hardcover book, which is ah you know kind of something that's fun, especially for an author. There's not a whole lot of hardcover books that are an option out there.
00:30:04
Speaker
um And then the other nice thing about this publisher, at least, is that they ah if you sell 1,500 books as a hybrid author, then they – you have the opportunity to get a ah traditional deal on your next novel. So I think there's, there's i don't want to say repeat business that they can set up, if you will. So um've I've been very happy with them and very excited along the process. So yeah yeah that would be, I guess, the story. i love that. The story the story. Yeah. When you talked about ah finding an agent, did you query? Did you write a query oh query letter?
00:30:41
Speaker
Query letter send them all out. How many? Because I'm curious about the rejections or the sense of rejection there. I don't mind rejection. I got rejected probably about a hundred times. I think I got two or three requests and that's kind of, I think about standard for somebody looking for an agent. And I, I think, you know, I, i spent a lot of time trying to find the right agents that I thought would be most interested or most new and I mean, honestly, I feel bad for a lot of them. They they get so many emails now. I mean, it's just that I mean, people talk about two to three hundred a day. I mean, there's just to me, there's almost no way as a new author to to actually hit that golden nail on the head unless you can actually write like Faulkner. or you or you're lucky. and And there are a lot of people that are really, really much more talented than I am. And there are a lot of people that find that lucky agent that they fall in love with, that the agent loves the the author and the story that they're trying to write, and they they have a happy ending. But I don't mind getting rejected. It's more that the fact that that this I didn't feel like I could actually move on in my writing career without having something physically
00:31:58
Speaker
present, to me, it meant that the that the project was actually never done. It's like an academic, you know, journal article that you write that gets rejected, and then you just decide to shelf it for the next, i don't know, however many years. It actually doesn't, there's there's no fruition to it. So to me, that was why I went the hybrid route. And and and it's worked out, I think, fairly well.
Reflections and Aspirations
00:32:19
Speaker
Yeah, I want to highlight something for the aspiring authors, the current authors, Michael just said there were a hundred, over a hundred rejections in a couple, maybe 2% of, of letters that were accepted. And, and he went a different route. He did different things. So if you are sensing rejection, if you are going through and you have dreams of becoming this published author, and it's not going your way right now, keep going because you will one day have that physical book that you can send out to your readers.
00:32:51
Speaker
Um, Michael, i'm i'm I'm curious what the role of vulnerability and however you want to view that word, what the role of vulnerability was in the creation of your book, in the journey of your life, in your own story, what role has vulnerability played?
00:33:11
Speaker
I mean, so I think there's some authors and it's probably, yeah, I'm i'm going to step back for just one second, especially if you're writing ah like a memoir. and' not, I'm using you as my example, sorry. But but if you're writing a memoir or especially nonfiction, to me, that makes the author very vulnerable. they they They may be more apt to, when they receive criticism, they may take that more to heart.
00:33:38
Speaker
My story is a lie. so It's a lie. So if you don't like the lie, it's at the end of the day, it's still a lie. And I'm sorry you don't like the lie. and I would have liked that you would have liked it to you to enjoy it. I'm not going to argue but about that. But at the end of the day, it's a lie. And so if you didn't enjoy it, I'm sorry. and And I hope maybe you think about reading something else that I wrote in the future. And if not, that's fine too. But if if you don't like it and you want to, you know, write all sorts of nasty things about me or anybody else on any website or Amazon page, have at it. Go go to town.
00:34:14
Speaker
But but it's if this is in my life. This is a lie. So to me, i'm I'm actually not that vulnerable in this situation. If this was my life story and somebody wanted to write ah a statement that you know my life was worthless and not you know pointless and it wasn't well written, that I probably would take more to heart.
00:34:34
Speaker
I'd also think that that person was a jerk and you know you probably still have to move on your way, but Whatever. i' but ah but ah as an author of a lie, i don't actually think I'm vulnerable at all. Yeah.
00:34:46
Speaker
Well, I will say there are parts of of what you've shared with me today that I i i see as as a as a a level of vulnerability. I think that's a it's a spectrum. it's It's a really wide thing. um And to open up and talk about the creation process.
00:35:03
Speaker
um the The point of vulnerability muscle is to redefine vulnerability as a strength, to connect, to heal, to grow. And and to be vulnerable is to be open.
00:35:14
Speaker
open about our process, open about our motivations, open about the bad things, but also open about the good things. And you have so much to celebrate. And I love that because it allows us to celebrate you in your journey from, you know, your academic journey, your journey from becoming a scientific writer to ah a novelist. And i cannot wait to to see more of what you create. You're very creative person.
00:35:40
Speaker
And I think creativity takes vulnerability. you you you write you You do music, from music to sports to ah just time with family. um There's so much beauty in your story. And i'm I'm so grateful that you shared that with us today.
00:35:58
Speaker
no thank you for having me You're very kind. Yeah, definitely, definitely. Before we close out, I have ah a segment that is a fill in the blank. And so you let me know the first thing to come to mind or you know a long sentence.
00:36:13
Speaker
Big paragraph, one word, whatever it is. Okay. In theme with vulnerability muscle. Vulnerability makes me feel blank.
00:36:26
Speaker
ah Accessible. Yeah. First, and I love it. Damn, that's good. My biggest strength is blank. My family.
00:36:39
Speaker
If I could tell my younger self one thing, It would be Michael blank.
00:36:51
Speaker
Go to the s SU ah championship final four basketball game in New Orleans.
00:37:01
Speaker
I don't have many regrets, but i had to I had the opportunity to get tickets to that game when the SU made it to the final four. and and And I didn't have any wife and I didn't have any kids. I'm like, yeah, nah, really don't want to. And I was living in Syracuse at the time and I followed the team for the you know the previous couple of years. And I'm like, there was a part of me like, I should go. I'm like, yeah, nah, don't want to waste the money. I should have gone. That's great. Like, honestly, go do that. Whatever that is for you, whatever that game is for you,
00:37:31
Speaker
Go do that.
Literary Influences and Gratitude
00:37:33
Speaker
When I'm exploring nature versus nurture, I try to remember that blank. Everybody's different.
00:37:43
Speaker
And then a story or book or person that has deeply influenced me is blank. Story or book that has deeply influenced me blank. I really liked Toni Morrison when I was a kid. I mean, I i thought her her writing was you know just succinct and spot on and had had has so many different layers to it. ah So I would say Toni Morrison.
00:38:13
Speaker
ah mean um mean I mean, Beloved is to me her crowning achievement. but Yes. Yes. Oh, so good. I got goosebumps because, yes, that will that'll change your life right there.
00:38:24
Speaker
Michael, this has been so fun. i've I've enjoyed learning more about you, learning more about your story, and um just the work that you've done to to help people. You've helped people your entire life, it sounds like. And I think that that is a testament to your character, your purpose in life. And now you're helping people through your writing ah from a novelist standpoint, split it it it is It is a book that is ah is a must read. And I hope that many people go out, pick it up, learn about chimera. Because again, i had to you had to tell me what that word sounded like because it doesn't look like it sounds. and
00:39:03
Speaker
um But yeah, there's so much there's so so much interesting things in this book about nature, about nurture, how our biology shapes us, how our environments shape us.
00:39:14
Speaker
And i'm um I'm really excited about this book. Are there any final words, final messages that you want to leave listeners before we close out here?
00:39:25
Speaker
I just want to thank you. I appreciate you taking the time to to sit down and talk with me and allow me to talk with you and talk about this project. you ah You're ah you know an upstanding human being and umm ah I've enjoyed the the past couple of minutes that we've had together. So that's been awesome.
00:39:42
Speaker
Likewise, likewise. Well, how can people reach you? How can they find the book? How can they connect? All those things. Yeah, so ah Michael Swartz Writes is my website. And the book Split is on Amazon or Barnes & Noble or Books A Million or all all the places that you want to go get a book.
00:40:00
Speaker
um And you can order it from from the stores. I don't know that it's all in every store, but it's in some of them. um so that's that's where you can get it.
Conclusion and Connection
00:40:09
Speaker
Yes, yes, yes.
00:40:10
Speaker
And I'll put that in the show notes. But Michael, this has been fantastic. One thing that I'm going to take away from this is that everybody's different. everybody Everybody's biology is different. Everybody's story is different. Their environments that shape them are different.
00:40:25
Speaker
And i really want to challenge people to embrace those differences, to celebrate those differences and uphold the differences in the brightest light, because that's what make us unique. That's what makes our world a better place.
00:40:39
Speaker
And I appreciate you for for writing this book and highlighting a population that I did not know about prior to this and and and giving some insight there. So with everything that you could be doing, all the places you could be, i appreciate you being here with me, embracing vulnerability.
00:40:57
Speaker
Thank you so much. Appreciate you.
00:41:02
Speaker
Thank you for joining us in another episode of Vulnerability Muscle. If you've enjoyed these conversations around vulnerability, please consider leaving a review. Your feedback not only motivates us to continue to do the work that we do, but it allows other people to witness the power of vulnerability. Share your thoughts.
00:41:20
Speaker
on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Spotify Podcasts, or wherever you're listening from. And don't forget to spread the word. You can follow us at Vulnerability Muscle on Instagram and me personally at Reggie D. Ford across all platforms.
00:41:35
Speaker
Visit vulnerabilitymuscle.com for additional resources and support. And remember, embracing vulnerability is not a sign of weakness. It is the source of your greatest strength.
00:41:46
Speaker
Sometimes it's uncomfortable, but most workouts are. So keep flexing that vulnerability muscle.