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056 - Imprisoned for a Murder She Didn't Commit - Now She Fights for Restorative Justice
30 Plays1 month ago
"I was just a kid trying to survive, and they called me a murderer."
In this unforgettable episode of Vulnerability Muscle, host Reggie D. Ford sits down with Ashlee Sellars, a powerhouse advocate for restorative justice whose life journey defies everything you thought you knew about crime, punishment, and healing. At just 17 years old, Ashlee was sentenced to 25 years in prison under Tennessee’s felony murder law—despite never pulling a trigger. But this isn’t just a story about incarceration. It’s about survival. It's about trauma, accountability, and ultimately, transformation.
Ashlee shares a jaw-dropping account of how the criminal legal system failed her at every turn, how she discovered the power of restorative justice through a life-altering meeting with her victim’s parents, and how she now leads community healing efforts at the Raphah Institute. With raw vulnerability and unapologetic truth, she challenges us to redefine what justice really means—and who deserves redemption.
Key Takeaways / Social Highlights:
- “Incarceration is not accountability. It’s removal from the conversation.”
- “Some of the worst behaviors in our communities come from the most beautiful intentions—like trying to protect our families.”
- “I was never given a chance to speak my truth. So now, I create space for others to speak theirs.”
Call to Action:
You won't hear a story like this anywhere else. Listen now to understand why true justice means more than punishment—and why vulnerability just might be the most powerful force for change. Share this episode, leave a review, and flex your own Vulnerability Muscle.
Contact Info:
Guest: Ashlee Sellars
🔗 Website: https://www.raphah.org/
📱 Social: @RaphahInstitute on all platforms
Host: Reggie D. Ford
🌐 Website: https://reggiedford.com
📱 Social: @reggiedford on all platforms
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Vulnerability and Mental Health
00:00:01
Speaker
If I can help young people believe that they are not the thing that they did, right, that they are worth something. And there are people in this world that care about them, even though they haven't had the ability to see it yet. but Right. People have not been in their lives in a healthy way to do the thing, because as a society, we do not address trauma and trauma is going to move.
00:00:19
Speaker
Welcome to Vulnerability Muscle, the inspiring podcast challenging norms and helping you redefine vulnerability as a strength. I'm your host, Reggie D. Ford. Each episode of Vulnerability Muscle dives into a variety of topics such as mental health, social issues, and mindset shifts.
00:00:37
Speaker
We explore the power of vulnerability and fostering meaningful connections. healing, building resilience, and promoting personal growth. Sometimes these conversations are uncomfortable, but good workouts often are.
00:00:51
Speaker
So join us and flex that vulnerability muscle. Welcome to Vulnerability Muscle. I'm your host, Reggie D. Ford. Vulnerability Muscle, where we redefine vulnerability as a strength that helps us connect, to heal, to grow.
Exploring Restorative Justice with Ashley Sellers
00:01:06
Speaker
Today, i have with me Ashley Sellers. Ashley is the Director of Network and Power Building at the Rafah Institute. She's an advocate for restorative justice and community healing, drawing mainly from her lived experiences ah Ashley is passionate about disrupting cycles of harm and creating spaces where healing and accountability can thrive.
00:01:28
Speaker
Welcome, Ashley. How are you doing? Thank you very much, Reggie. I'm glad to be here. Yes, I'm glad to have you here. And I think we we might have met, what, several years ago now, at ah and your story and what you represent and the fight that you have for justice and restorative justice is so inspiring. And so, like, it's an honor for me to have you here. So thank you.
00:01:52
Speaker
Yeah. Thank you. Before we hop into... some of that powerful story in the work that you do. I have a segment called What Comes to Mind. So you let me know the first thing you can think of and try not to think too hard on it. But what comes to mind when you hear the word vulnerability?
00:02:09
Speaker
Strength. Yes. wait What do you do to calm yourself or center yourself if you're feeling anxious, nervous, stressed out, anything like that?
00:02:21
Speaker
I try to breathe. right If I can try to get like a moment of actually just closing my eyes and focusing on like my body and what my body's feeling and breathe through that.
00:02:33
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Presence that's so like just bringing it back to the present. The breath is so good at at doing that because that's the only thing we can do in the present is this inhale and that exhale. Like, so I love that.
00:02:44
Speaker
And then um lastly, what is one of your favorite childhood memories? Yeah, I think um ah think this is probably a question that's often really awkward for me.
00:02:57
Speaker
It's also a question that, um unfortunately, I feel like a lot of people who have been through trauma may not necessarily be able to pull a recall from.
Navigating Trauma and Memory
00:03:06
Speaker
And so I will say, in the midst of the trauma, um there was this time I was hospitalized when I was in second and third grade.
00:03:18
Speaker
And there was a gas station across the street from one of the hospitals that I was in. And we were allowed to like kind of go on field trips and do this stuff. And there were these counselors, right, that would go with us as children.
00:03:30
Speaker
And the gas station actually had a coloring contest for Easter. And I colored this page and I won. Yeah. It's like Easter coloring contest. And I remember going over there and just being really excited because my picture was put up at the gas station. No, that's dope. And I got like a really large um Easter basket full of stuff and, you know, was really proud of the thing that I had created. Like that wasn't anything that came from anywhere else. Like it was myself. It was my vision. It was my creation. it was...
00:04:02
Speaker
Things that even in a moment that were really, really impactful and tumultuous for me, i was still able to have some outlet and in some way that was recognized, even if it was at a gas station yeah countertop. Right. yeah Yeah. Oh, that's so cool. That's so cool to be to be recognized for that. And and so i appreciate what you said about, you know,
00:04:24
Speaker
Pulling positive memories is hard for people who have experienced trauma and to to to look at the the childhood that was or the childhood that we wish we could have had and realize it like, no, it was fucking shit.
00:04:38
Speaker
It was trash. I hated it and And like, I try not to go back there when I as much as least as possible. And um so I appreciate you for being open about about that. But then being able to pull that that's a as a beautiful memory. And ah you deserve to be celebrated for those creations. So that's
Understanding Justice and Societal Conditioning
00:04:56
Speaker
dope.
00:04:56
Speaker
Can you can you take me back ah to to whatever period of time and just give me a part of where the journey started for you in terms of of what justice looks like or didn't look like?
00:05:11
Speaker
Yeah, I think just ah justice is fluid. I think the way we define that is fluid. I think throughout my life, I've probably defined it in different ways. Some of that is growing up and having other people define stuff for you and not being in a place yet that we understand how conditioned we are to define things in a way that may not necessarily align with who we are at our core, right? It is just that rhetoric that we have heard over and over through generations that we then regurgitate.
00:05:41
Speaker
in some kind of way that is really absent from our thought. it isn't It isn't embodied in who we are, how we think, how our mind works, how our heartworks and what we've experienced, it is just regurgitated, right?
00:05:55
Speaker
And um my father, think the part of the thread in some ways has seemed irrelevant and just kind of traumatic, but it also really resonant for who I am in the path that I'm on today.
00:06:08
Speaker
um My father was highway patrol and was super abusive. um was an alcoholic and ah did not move in the ways that were appropriate for anybody in that position or anyone who was a father in any kind of way.
00:06:23
Speaker
And then my mother later dated a um captain of a bomb squad who was also abusive. He was abusive both physically, sexually, um and verbally.
00:06:38
Speaker
And, ah there was a period of time where he, my mom had hospitalized me, I think because of some addiction issues that the two of them were, experiencing. And it was much easier to have a child over here than it was to, to go through your addiction in a way that you had a child present with you.
00:06:58
Speaker
Right. My mom was in the nursing field. And so she was aware of resources that she could access. I think she had to put particular labels on me in order for me to be able to access those services. And so then I was treated a particular way because of that. yeah,
00:07:12
Speaker
People do different things in the trauma that they've had and with the knowledge that they had and how they can kind of move move in that. um And then i experienced a pretty...
00:07:24
Speaker
drastic um sexual abuse when I was 17 and defended myself. And in some ways it's really hard for me to say that because I had a label put on me at that time also as like assaulting somebody. And there's a part that if you have been conditioned for so long or if you've been told something for so long, it's really hard, even if you know yourself, to push against that.
00:07:46
Speaker
And so to say like, I didn't assault anybody, I protected myself. Right. right There's a conflict because society said, I did this and I'm saying, but like this thing happened to me and this is the way that, you know, I stopped happening. Yeah.
00:08:01
Speaker
Um, to be in that space, but I called law enforcement and they didn't do anything. And, um, there was this just, you know, we hear about like kids falling through cracks, um, And i think the realization of how many cracks there are and how many children actually escape that is a very, very, very small number.
The Impact of Societal Neglect on Youth
00:08:22
Speaker
And we haven't normalized the conversation of what are the cracks and who's falling through them and who is not. Yeah. And what is the difference between the child that's falling through them and the child that is not. Right. Right. And at what point do we define somebody as ah problem or somebody as a survivor? Yeah.
00:08:41
Speaker
yeah And it's almost like, fine, you can be a survivor until you make a particular decision, right? I would have been a survivor until I defended myself. And then I'm a monster. Yeah. Right? like Now you're the assailant. Yes. So like at what point are we actually going to find out as a society, like what is the core problem?
00:09:02
Speaker
that's leading to these things happening and how do we as a society actually address these things? So I think it's this series of of experiences that lead me into the space of the all of the ways in which the systems are portrayed like they're supposed to respond and don't. Yeah.
00:09:20
Speaker
That puts in in a way of like, we have to do something different. And um if I can use any of the experiences that I've had in my life to help with that narration, like I want to be a part of that. Definitely. Definitely.
00:09:31
Speaker
I just noticed like you, you took your hands behind your back and you, and you started to breathe. Like, what did you feel in your body? Yeah. I think, again, it's the contradiction, right?
00:09:43
Speaker
It fills um the space to to say, like, I'm going to tell you what my story is, and internally I wrestle with how it's how it's received and how um accurate it is because I've been told yeah it is only this way. Yeah. Yeah.
00:10:06
Speaker
It's just a really hard. I'm a Virgo. And so honesty is really important to me. Integrity is really important to me. ah Rules are really important to me. And so it is just even in the space to give a push against an authority yeah that says this authority is deemed by so many people like they are the ones that are always Right.
00:10:27
Speaker
And so often that's not the story. Yeah. And even as a white woman, it's it's normally less the story as it applies to me than it is that it applies to people of color. Yeah.
00:10:38
Speaker
So if I've had the experiences that I've had sitting in the privilege that I have— What more is the story for other people? That's powerful. I thank you so much for for opening up and being vulnerable and sharing um because and I know it's it's it's hard to have to even recount like pieces of memories or things that you have to to to do and you do it A lot. You do it a lot. And um in in the work that you do and to help other people through similar experiences who have been impacted by the just the injustice system.
00:11:13
Speaker
And ah it it is it is remarkable to see you stand in that strength and be able to to own your story in that way. What is what is your truth as it relates? So so the conflict and the expectations and the authorities say one thing. What is your truth as you experienced the I don't even want to finish that. What is your truth?
Personal Encounters with the Legal System
00:11:35
Speaker
Yeah, I think if we're talking specifically about like my incarceration or that legal experience for me.
00:11:44
Speaker
I had literally no concept of what the what the criminal legal system was and what that meant. Again, I had been around some level of law enforcement my entire life and abused by most of them in some type of way or seen them in a space that was in an abusive context.
00:12:07
Speaker
Right. Um, the, the boyfriend that I mentioned that my mom had, he he almost beat her to death and she was able to call, um, 9-1-1 and he actually intercepted the phone call when they were saying like, who's in the area. No. Yeah. Whoa. s And then he was like, I'll be the first responder stop to this thing.
00:12:28
Speaker
ah And still like, when I talked about the, the, when I talked to people about the abuse, even family, right. When I said like, he, he abused me the entire time that they were in relationship. They were like, no, like he was, he was captain of the bomb squad. Like he was a high ranking officer. Like he was a generational law enforcement person. Like there's no way, like yeah I can't believe that he would have done that. Right. Like there's this continual space of,
00:12:57
Speaker
Whether we want to be a part of it or not, there's, let me go for a second. this There is this video that we watch often. It's a TED Talk. And this woman's talking about um biases.
00:13:09
Speaker
Okay. And she says we were all outside when the contamination came down. Mm-hmm. meaning it applies to all of us. Racism applies to all of us. Authority and the abuse of authority applies to all of us because we have we are all conditioned generation after generation and it is so embedded in who we are yeah that we don't even recognize it. Yes. Right? Even in thinking about like,
00:13:30
Speaker
law enforcement is the way that we need to do things. My child loves Legos. Yeah. Right. And he wants, he's like, I want this Lego kit. And I look and it's like age three appropriate. And I'm like, cool, let's do this thing.
00:13:42
Speaker
And then I get it home and there are handcuffs in it. Like why does a three-year-old age appropriate need handcuffs? Right. It's bad guys and good guys and cowboys and Indians and like all this historical stuff that we all know. wow Right. But we don't recognize how that sits with us. And so,
00:14:00
Speaker
You know, ah think um just going back and thinking about you know, all of the stuff. Like you don't you don't necessarily know what, again, what is your thought and what is the thought that has come to you? yeah And so I remember saying stuff like, oh, nope, if you do the crime, you do the time, right? To yourself. Where does that even come from? Because you just walked into something that somebody else is saying.
00:14:24
Speaker
Right. What does that even mean? You want to act like an adult? i' treat you like an adult. Like what? Because I was a kid transferred into the adult system. And I'm like, wait a minute. I wasn't acting like, no. Obviously. Yes. My life. Right. Yeah. um So there are all these layers of like just conflict between us not even knowing that society has conditioned us to be in the thing. Yes. Right.
00:14:47
Speaker
um Yeah. That that ah reminds me of a ah book that I'm reading currently, The Myth of Normal by Gabber Matei. And he's talking, it's more from a health standpoint, of both physical and mental health.
00:15:00
Speaker
And it may he may he gets into some other stuff later on in the book. But of all the things that we have normalized and accepted that are totally unhealthy for who we are as people, as children developing, as women, as men, as black like it's just it's unhealthy. But we have stamped it normal.
00:15:20
Speaker
And it has led to like, we're, we're growing unhealthier as a society. We're growing less tolerant of each other. We're growing less resilient.
00:15:31
Speaker
And it's, it's because of what you're talking about. Like, and we have to, individually and collectively challenge the things that we were just told to accept.
00:15:42
Speaker
Challenge that the phrases. the I think it's crazy because I i um ah look at like movie plots and how like the plot of movies are so violent.
00:15:54
Speaker
So-and-so gets murdered and then da-da-da-da-da-da. And it's like we're starting with murder as the plot of a movie. And we accept we we just go out into the world and that's like what we are conditioned to normalize it's crazy to me but we do it to our kids too right like tom and jerry oh yeah right like yeah i'm gonna cut your tail off with a saw yeah i'm gonna hit you with the whatever i'm gonna feed you to the dog like yeah when you say it it's like wait like that's all the stuff that's in there but yeah violence is everywhere it's everywhere and we just accept it and we wonder why the kid who is being influenced by this this that net turns to violence when they have to solve an issue and so
00:16:32
Speaker
um But i I have tremendous amount of of empathy for your story. And I like you, you just shared earlier before we started recording about ah the time that you were sentenced and how much time that was.
00:16:47
Speaker
Can you speak to that? Yeah, sure. um So felony murder is a thing in Tennessee. I didn't know this at the time. I mean, not that it not that any of it would have. If I'd had the knowledge, it's not a preventative, right, when you're in that space.
00:17:01
Speaker
um The law changed in 1995, July of 95, Biden and um Clinton actually said they were building off of the supermetter super predator myth, right? This is post- um central part five.
00:17:18
Speaker
Um, you know, Trump is trying to offer money for the death penalty for these young people. you know, it's come out now, like there's all these documentaries that none of them were responsible. None of them were guilty. None of this was, you know, accurate of what happened, but there was this thing said, like these kids now are just born super predators. Like that's how they're coming out of the womb.
00:17:37
Speaker
It's inevitable. They are murders and rapists and robbers and all of these things. Um, And so they they put federal money out to so to states to say, build more prisons and increase your sentencing laws.
00:17:49
Speaker
This is a part of the crime bill. Is this an addition to the, what, 93 crime? Well, it's a 95 crime bill. Okay. Yeah. a different And there's actually, and David Rabin, who is a predominant attorney in Nashville, yeah he talks about like how he helped create those sentencing laws at that time for this and is now coming back saying It's all an error.
00:18:09
Speaker
You know, that was not factual. um And so the life sentence in Tennessee was 25 years. It jumped to 60. And currently there's even some question about what it means because they also enacted this.
00:18:23
Speaker
100%, 85% law. So the life sentence is 60 years, but if you have life with parole, it's 51 100 or 85, but you expire your sentence at the 85%, so you wouldn't go up for parole.
00:18:36
Speaker
But when we're trying to talk about legislatively, people are saying, well, we haven't got there yet, so we really don't know what happens. But you know what the statute is for all of the other 100%, 85% laws and how they work. You expire your sentence. You don't go up for parole.
00:18:50
Speaker
So there's no reason to believe that the way it's applied there would apply any different to a life sentence. a but That's that's just the ah probably just a rant. So um that's the that's a space that was in. my my responsibility happened in July of, I mean, in December of 1995.
00:19:12
Speaker
Um, I had been leaving home for a period of time, trying just to find a way out of that space. Um, i didn't know how to get out of there again. I was almost raped.
00:19:23
Speaker
Um, I was sexually assaulted, almost raped in October of that year called law enforcement. They put me back into the same house. There wasn't children's services. There wasn't do you need to go to the hospital. There wasn't any, like, do you need counseling? Do you need anything? There wasn't any question of the of the individual that they found with just a T-shirt on who was an older man, right?
00:19:40
Speaker
Kids don't just respond this way. right Like, that's not – super predator myth is false. Yeah. You know? And so I had no faith in the criminal legal system. i had no faith in policing.
00:19:50
Speaker
And – honestly wasn't in a spot for me to do anything. yeah And so the gentleman who I was staying with got out of my car, was gone for a period of time. He got back in my car and I said, did I hear a gunshot? and he said, yes. Mm-hmm.
00:20:04
Speaker
And as, again, as I have processed my stuff and as I've been in my space of healing and accountability and what that really means, at the time I probably would have told you I didn't know what he was going to do.
00:20:16
Speaker
Like hands down, I didn't know what he was doing. right That happened. And now today what I would say is I heard him say stuff and was not in a mindset of being able to say like, wait, what are you talking about? Like you yeah can't do that. Like you shouldn't hurt anybody. You can't.
00:20:32
Speaker
There was nothing there for me. Right. And even in the moment when I realized that something had happened and knew intellectually like somebody's hurt, whether I knew they were dead or not, knowing that somebody was hurt, I was in a space of like, oh, my God, like you've
Trauma and Its Effects on Decision-Making
00:20:46
Speaker
done something wrong. And that means I have to go back to my house.
00:20:48
Speaker
So I wasn't even able to process. Somebody is hurt somewhere. Yeah. Yeah. I was just thinking, i'm gonna get raped this time. Like there's no way around it.
00:20:59
Speaker
um This is gonna happen to me. And this is not only respite, like this is the only thing that I've had and now I have to go back, yeah right? And so when we think about like adverse childhood experiences and the way that our brain forms around trauma and how we move, like I was going to the shelter feeding people, right? Like I was in the space of, I don't have anywhere to go.
00:21:21
Speaker
You know, there's substance use happening. There's violence all around me. All these things are happening and I want to go volunteer at the shelter. Yeah. And I'm going and doing that, which was core to who I am. Wow. And still I was in a place of somebody is hurt and I can't even focus on that, even though that is core to who my personality is because That survival kicked in of like, I know what this means for me right in this moment. yeah And that's not something that's allowed to happen in the criminal legal system. Wow. Right. You can't say, no, actually, the this is my truth. Yeah. Or this is what's happening or this is what's going on.
00:21:56
Speaker
And... um So I would Cynthia um ah bring her into the room. Cynthia Lynn Page is the young woman who was killed. She was a college student, um brilliant young lady, loving family, you know, working herself through through college and her life was taken.
00:22:12
Speaker
Wow. And. um That was the gunshot that you heard. Yes. Yeah. And what was her relation to you? he I didn't have a relationship with her. The gentleman that I was staying with apparently had worked at that establishment. Okay. And he knew their processes and needed money. And so he went to robber. And I don't know all that happens. Yeah.
00:22:32
Speaker
Um, but literally I was, I wasn't even on the property. Wow. I was parked at a church somewhere else. No, he got out of my car. He got back in my car. Yeah. Um, And even in that space, I was like, when when conversations of like when when I got arrested, I was in a space of like, that's accessory after the fact, right? Like I didn't know anything was happening. I did this.
00:22:52
Speaker
I didn't know that felony murder was a thing. I also had been in a space of you can't trust the police, so you shouldn't say anything. Yeah. So I didn't give a statement. Right. Right. Which probably was protecting you as well, because who knows?
00:23:04
Speaker
Yeah. There's so much. you know Yeah. There's so many layers of that. um I wanted to go to trial, and I'd seen my public defender a handful of times. i didn't I didn't understand any of that. When I first got arrested, I was like, this is the room I'm to spend the rest of my life in. I didn't understand there was a difference between juvenile, jail, prison. When you say felony murder, explain NAC.
00:23:25
Speaker
who So felony murder says that you are with somebody in the event of a felony when a homicide occurs. Gotcha. But it doesn't necessarily mean it that either of you have to have a weapon.
00:23:35
Speaker
Gotcha. So like two people could go into a store with the intent to rob. the store clerk could kill one of them. And you would be responsible for the homicide because it's like cause and effect.
00:23:48
Speaker
If you had not done A, then B could not have happened. And so you're responsible for the totality of all of it. wow um And I had no id never heard of any of that before either.
00:23:59
Speaker
Right. And still didn't feel like I was, you know, i still wrestle with the space and being true to my accountability. I wish I had been in a space that I could have tuned in and said, yeah like, wait, what are you talking about? yeah Step up and advocate for yourself. I'm a huge advocate. Well, I'm an advocate for other people. Like that's been my life too. yeah And i there's there's no way in my right space that I would have said it is okay for us to do this thing or it's okay for you to do this thing. you mentioned your heart. Like you were out there feeding people. You were out there doing things for other people.
00:24:28
Speaker
And at the same time, like like you were you were conflicted because there is so much trauma in you and in hijack. Amygdala hijack is real. And so you can try to say, I'm going make all these rational decisions all day long. But when you have experienced trauma, you don't know what you're going to do in those
Challenges of Incarceration and System Failures
00:24:45
Speaker
moments. It's not rational. And it's it's it's not our brains aren't created for it to be rational. It's created to keep us safe and alive.
00:24:52
Speaker
And so the choices and the things that were made I don't even like using choices because sometimes they're not choices. It's survival. It's survival. and And to be like I hadn't known as explicitly what felony murder was, but that, oh, my goodness.
00:25:09
Speaker
So what ensued for you after that and and how did that process go? Yeah, so, um well, post-arrest,
00:25:20
Speaker
um you know, I sat in solitary confinement for quite a while because of my charge. um I thought that was the life that I was going to live. You know, it juvenile was ah box.
00:25:32
Speaker
You had center blocks as the bed. You had a thin mat on it. There was the there was a window there, but it was so blacked out that you couldn't see anything. You weren't allowed to have anything in your cell. And so literally they would slide my tray of food under the tape under the door to me.
00:25:48
Speaker
And if I needed toilet paper, I would say, like, I need to use the bathroom. And they would literally roll off what they expected was enough toilet paper for me and slide it on the floor under the door for me. And at this, you were 17 at this age? was 17. Yeah.
00:26:03
Speaker
I was 17. So I did that. I did that for a while. And then i got transferred into the adult system. They transferred my physical body into the adult system. they didn't know what to do with me there either because i was a female and because i was a kid. Right.
00:26:18
Speaker
You said physical body. Speak to that. Well, so I think the court can be in a space of saying we are going to hand down a decision that you will be transferred in the legal system as an adult. And that means like your case will no longer be housed in juvenile court. It would be transferred over to the adult system and then they can process you as an adult.
00:26:39
Speaker
And there's no minimum age limit in Tennessee for howl how old you have to be in order to to do that. There are some, there are a couple of stipulations on whether there's enough time for you to be able to be rehabilitated, but then that also leaves it up to the discretion of the judge. Yeah. Who's making a decision. And so even as an example, you had a very, very conservative district attorney in Shelby County in Memphis that was transferring astronomical numbers of black and brown kids into the adult system where in Davidson County, Sheila was, um,
00:27:11
Speaker
was sending a ah very, very small number of individuals who she was determining may not have time to be rehabilitated or this is, you know, multiple times that something has happened or whatever those little core things are to say like,
00:27:25
Speaker
now Now I really don't have a choice as a judge because these things are present, um that that's a decision you have to make. So i had been so when I went to court, the judge wouldn't even take my address under advisement.
00:27:39
Speaker
He said that I had to have been staying with my mother because I was a juvenile, um and it wasn't legal for me not to be in her custody. It wasn't until years later that I found out that he was actually a patient of my mother's. Wow. there was a conflict. He should have been hearing my case to begin with. Wow.
00:27:53
Speaker
And there was so much abuse. I mean, the story that I make up for myself and that some of my family makes up is that there was so much abuse that was happening that there were these series of things that my mother did to make sure that she was quieting down the likelihood of somebody actually hearing what was happening. ah And so power and privilege, right? And so they said no, that this was the address I was supposed to be staying at, which was my mother's address.
00:28:18
Speaker
Wow. um But then i then my physical body was moved. into the adult space, even after my case had been shifted to be held in that space. Gotcha.
00:28:28
Speaker
Okay. And so then they didn't know what to do with me. So they kept me in cars. They kept me locked down this time. It was over 20. It was 24 seven because i was completely ignorant. I had no idea what my rights were. i didn't know what I was supposed to be allowed or afforded.
00:28:44
Speaker
Um, I did have a window in my room at that time, which I was extremely grateful for and literally would stare out the window and shuffle cards back to back like for hours and just having some type of manipulative, right? Like it's something yeah to do with my body to push some of that stuff around.
00:29:02
Speaker
um, And I was in the medical wing. It was only like five cells back there, one of which was the rubber room, like, right, this padded padded thing. And there are days where they forgot to feed me. There are days they forgot to let me shower. I didn't know that I was allowed to use the phone. i didn't know I had access to the law library. I didn't know that I could get a book. I didn't know anything.
00:29:22
Speaker
And I was supposed to be in school because I was still a kid. yeah And they were supposed to be providing some type of educational experience for me that they were not. None of that. Because the system hadn't been set up for any of that stuff. And I remember this one time, um this woman came back. This is the first experience that I had had even hearing about methamphetamines.
00:29:40
Speaker
This woman came back and was clearly in severe addiction and was in a space of wounds and... um ah I don't know any other way to say it, but like literally feeding on herself to continue her, her addiction and to continue to service the addiction that she was having.
00:30:00
Speaker
And I was like, this is what my whole life, like this is, this is like every, because then she became the picture for everybody. Right. Because I had no concept right of what this would look like. And so was like, Oh, like this is zombie. Like everybody's just going to be doing this thing. What does this mean? Yeah. Um,
00:30:16
Speaker
And so it was it was just, it was definitely awaking, I'll say that. Yeah. what What type of mindset did you have to have to get you through those times and and have hope that there was a time where you weren't going to be in a cell or experiencing the life like you were living?
00:30:37
Speaker
I think this is another space that sits in a little bit of conflict for me. um The only thing that I ever wanted to be was a mama. And I'd been pushing my belly out since I was like 13, calling my child by name.
00:30:51
Speaker
Right. I was like my baby boy, but Blake. Like I just kept calling him when I had friends who were like sucking their stomach in, trying to look thin. Like I was running around like, hold my baby. Like, I'll be thin if you want to. I'm going to be a mommy. Yeah.
00:31:05
Speaker
kind of doing this thing. And so that was like, there was a part of me that the, the hope of having child and probably in this really, really unhealthy way of even being incarcerated and pushing my belly out and being like, you know, wanting to be pregnant even in that moment so badly that I would tell you that there's so much of him that saved me.
00:31:24
Speaker
um As I was navigating that, I am a person of faith and i do lean into the faith space of, how God has shown up in my life.
00:31:37
Speaker
And also that's that that's a really hard rub for me because when I've heard people over time say like, you know, God freed me and God saved me and God did this stuff, I am going to remember the times that I was in that cell and was like, please, please.
00:31:56
Speaker
Or right like at the hands of somebody abusing me and be like, please make this stop. yeah right like Where are you? What is happening? And not feeling a response from God. And I don't think it's a fair space for us to centralize this space of like, well, God saved me, but don't know where you sit with him. right yeah And um so I feel really cautious in how storytelling can also create spiritual, spiritual harm for somebody else who may be sitting in a level of trauma that they feel like is more severe than yours. yeah
00:32:33
Speaker
And they're crying out and doing all of the things that is right, right? Quote, unquote, right with God and you're getting saved and they're not. yeah and that's not where my faith sits. You know, I think everybody, even the people that are out there doing horrible things who haven't even called on God yet, that God is like, and you are still my child. Yeah.
00:32:52
Speaker
right I'm still coming for you. like I still love you. I'm still going to let you in this house. you know I don't believe in hell like that. I think God is a very, very patient parent that will say, like I will still forgive you and let you into my home.
00:33:06
Speaker
Wow. and so that conflict, right. Of like probably so much of my child and my child, Blake, that I leaned into probably inappropriately. so He saved me right. And some level of space.
00:33:19
Speaker
I also believe in my faith, but not in a way that eliminates the faith or the struggle that anyone else is going through. Yeah. That's beautiful. Yeah.
Life After Incarceration: Rebuilding Hope
00:33:28
Speaker
mean, cause, cause you were sentenced to how many years? I took a plea for 25 years at a hundred percent, which means that I got 15% good days.
00:33:37
Speaker
Um, so I served over 21 years in prison. And that's what you actually served. Day for day over 21 years. Wow. So 21 years in prison from 17 until you got out.
00:33:51
Speaker
And I know that that we could do series on on those years. like like and And you had this faith to get out. I want to get to kind of the... the period of time where you were reborn or you you had this this this awakening to to fight for restorative justice, right?
00:34:13
Speaker
What did that look like? When did that start to shift? Was it during your sentencing was it or was it during your your sentence or was it afterwards or when did you start fight for justice for others um I think there's all, again, I think part of my personality, there's always been this like standup of like, that's not okay. That thing's not right.
00:34:32
Speaker
um Even, even as a ah really young person, Again, I said, like, I didn't want to go to, i didn't want to take a plea. I wanted to go to trial. I didn't feel like I held the responsibility that they were saying that I held.
00:34:45
Speaker
Right? Like, even if I'm going to say, like, in my trauma, right, I didn't have those, and I didn't have that language. Right. There was nothing in me at that time. that language wasn't being recognized. Right. Like, even as a, and sometimes it's not recognized today, right? Yeah.
00:34:57
Speaker
yeah yeah Right. Like, but as a 19 year old, like I didn't have the space to say, like, I was doing this in my trauma or this is why I couldn't do this or even naming it. I would, again, I would have told you as a 19 year old, I didn't even it was going to happen. yeah This isn't until much later in my life that I've able to process this stuff and say, no, actually here is my truth. As much as I would want to believe, like I didn't know anything was going to happen and there was nothing I could do when I was powerless in it.
00:35:22
Speaker
There was. Yeah. If I had been able to remove myself from that stuff for one moment and be able to be like, wait, what do what's happening? I could have saved her. And I know that.
00:35:34
Speaker
And I will hold that. And I will hold that as my responsibility. But that is a different responsibility than planned for somebody to die and I played a part in it. Right. This is, i did not act. Right.
00:35:46
Speaker
And I wish I had it. Yeah. That's completely different. Totally different. And um it's itate you said a minute ago, um like this hope of me getting out. I don't know that I had a hope I was getting out. Wow.
00:35:57
Speaker
Even when we talked about... you know, here's the plea for 25 years. I said, I'm not taking that. I want to have a baby. And if I can't have a baby, then just keep me. If that is the only thing that I know, then you just keep me there.
00:36:09
Speaker
What am I going to come home to? I am 17 and all I know is crap. Hmm. Never had really anybody good show up in my life for an extended period of time. And you think i'm going to go to prison for 25 years? Because I didn't even understand a percentage. right I didn't even understand that. You're talking about 25 years. That's what I hear. yeah That's grain and concrete for me. right And there's no way I can have a family. There's no way that I'm going to be able to be mentally, physically, whatever, financially, any of the ablies.
00:36:39
Speaker
I'm not going to be able to be any of those when I come out at almost 40. What am I going to do? so Wow. I haven't even graduated high school. Yeah. And this is like what you think is going to happen with me.
00:36:51
Speaker
No. Like I will take the chance between a 25, which would be a life, which for me at that time, that feels like you're keeping me forever and I will never be able to do anything else. Yeah. Or a 60 year sentence.
00:37:03
Speaker
What is the difference when that's all I know? Like just leave me there. And so um my mom, ah who i have a who I have a really, really poor relationship with, came up to the jail crying, you know begging me to take this plea. i said, I'm not taking it.
00:37:20
Speaker
you know And she said, you know they told me that you'll spend the rest of your life in prison if I don't convince you to take this plea. And I was like, it's not. And that's what it is. yeah you know And still sitting with, again, thinking about,
00:37:34
Speaker
all of the dis dysfunctions that children in trauma have and what codependency looks like. And still even the space where she never protected me, feeling the demand of myself to protect her. Yeah.
00:37:48
Speaker
And that's how codependency plays out so often, especially for young people, is that no matter how much they've abused you, and people don't understand that either. They're like, why would you protect when they did ABC?
00:37:58
Speaker
Right. And not understanding that isn't how we work, and we're meant to be communal people. Right. We're meant to protect people. Right. This is the shift that's happened because of the way that we've moved in this world. Mm-hmm. is that we now protect people who haven't protected us and do so in an unhealthy way and demand this type of connection. Yes.
00:38:15
Speaker
Right? That's not what it's supposed to look like. but the But the desire to want to love and to protect and to be there for is beautiful. Yeah. That's your heart on display. That's beautiful for a kid to say, like, I'm going to even go sell drugs because my mom's in addiction.
00:38:30
Speaker
Yes. like That's out of love. That's not out of being a heathen. No, at all. Right? like My mom is doing X, Y, and Z in order to get dope. And I don't want to see my mother doing that. I will go do the things yeah to protect my family so that they don't have to do it.
00:38:47
Speaker
And we don't give space for that. Some of the worst characteristics that play out in our community are actually from really, really beautiful intent. Right. It has just been so corrupted because our society is not allowing our people to have what they need to be able to thrive. Right. We've set up these systems are horrible. Yeah.
00:39:08
Speaker
There's such a lack of compassion, a lack of empathy and understanding of other people's experiences. And so much of this is dictated by people who are setting laws and creating policies who don't have that lived experience.
00:39:21
Speaker
Or zero proximity. None, none. And so it's so much judgment on what your life is like and what you are doing and the criminal and the murderer and the monster that you are without having any ounce of empathy.
00:39:35
Speaker
And I think that that is a a and just so inhumane to treat people and to expect things of people when you don't understand their lives. Right. And so i love I love the work that you, thank you so much for this. Like, i like seriously, like for for bearing your heart and your soul, not only in this interview, but in the your life's work.
00:39:57
Speaker
Like, this is not easy. None of it is. And you wake up and you do this. And I was loved to hear that y'all take sabbaticals and y'all have time to to heal the healer because y'all are healing.
00:40:07
Speaker
Y'all are healing so many people in so many lives. and And I want to talk about
Embracing Restorative Justice and Community Healing
00:40:12
Speaker
healing. Like I want to talk about what healing has looked like in your journey if you have started that process ah and and what that has looked like for you.
00:40:23
Speaker
Yeah, I think this is probably a wrap of ah the last questions you asked me that I didn't fully answer and this one in one um so i did So I did agree to take a plea and I went to court and there were two people that stood up and talked about what a horrible human being I was and how I had never taken any accountability and I had never shown any remorse.
00:40:43
Speaker
And it was Cynthia's mother and father. And I didn't know that and nobody prepped me for that and there wasn't, any type of conversation about victims and victim impact statement and how of your decisions impacted your community? And there was nothing about any of it. Right.
00:40:58
Speaker
Um, and I've always been pretty outspoken in spaces. And so I raised my hand in court and was like, Hey, i like, I want to talk to yeah Yeah. I got something to You know, because again, also a kid and not understanding like any of it. So like you said something like, no, no, no, no. Can we wrap? Like we talk. Um,
00:41:16
Speaker
And the judge, of course, was was really upset at me. And then the family said, no, we want to have a conversation with her. And the judge allowed that to happen. And so we went behind closed doors. It was myself and her parents.
00:41:28
Speaker
And I said, your daughter's death saved my life. And they grabbed me, hugged me, cried with me, prayed with me, loved on me, told me stories and laughed with me.
00:41:39
Speaker
um And they actually brought um Cynthia's cross to to court. And I talk often in different and different areas about I can't imagine my child being killed.
00:41:53
Speaker
And for over two years, I imagine coming back and forth between... me and their parent, their other parent and saying like, okay, when we get the chance, what would we say? What do we do? Okay. So what are we going to take? Okay. Well, I wrote this. Okay. We'll read it. Is that what it feels like? Oh no, no, read this. Oh no. I threw it up. I wadded it up. I threw it away again. Like, let me rewrite it. Right. Like what the process of you have one chance.
00:42:14
Speaker
Yeah. You have one chance to give a statement that you're not going to get any answers from. Hmm. You're only going to be able to say something. And as the parents of a young woman who was killed, what do you do? What do you say?
00:42:26
Speaker
How much consideration was with you to say, like, this is her item. This is what will represent her that we will take with us here today. And relinquish that to the person that you feel like held some responsibility for her death.
00:42:40
Speaker
And to be in a space of you did not say what neither one of them said was you haven't been punished enough. You haven't been locked up enough. You haven't missed enough. You haven't been abused enough. You haven't whatever my experiences of over two years of incarceration had been. yeah They didn't name any of those things.
00:42:57
Speaker
And they had been able to experience everything that the criminal legal system has to offer victims. And what they stood up there and said in that moment of their daughter who was who was who is not here anymore was this person has not taken accountability and they haven't shown remorse.
00:43:13
Speaker
The two things that they demanded to happen, the criminal legal system never allows to happen for anyone. ah account They did not say this sentence is not accountable. This sentence doesn't create accountability. They said she has not taken accountability.
00:43:26
Speaker
Right? which I think is a big misnomer in the criminal legal system, is we continue as a society to say, you must be accountable. We must hold somebody accountable. We have to do this thing.
00:43:38
Speaker
And incarceration is not accountability. It is removal from it. You don't have to say anything. were told to be quiet and then you were punished. Mm-hmm. And that leaves victims with a space of, I have still gotten nothing from this experience.
00:43:53
Speaker
They had an opportunity for two years of healing yeah that obviously the criminal legal system did not bring to them. They experienced, in my opinion, more healing in 30 seconds in a room with me than they did in everything that the criminal legal system had to offer in over two years. Yeah.
00:44:10
Speaker
wow So what are we doing? Wow. Right? And so when I think about like, how did I come to restorative justice? How did I come to these things? Like, again, I didn't have any terminology for restorative justice at that time. I didn't, like I raised my hand ignorantly and just hollered across the courtroom because I knew what they were saying was not who I was. yeah And my heart, again, who I was true to myself. When I heard somebody say like, you haven't done this thing. I'm like, wait a minute. Like, when have I had a chance?
00:44:37
Speaker
When have I been able to do anything that you actually need? Mm-hmm. Right. And when I, when I, and so when I was in prison, I kept saying like, i want to share my story. I want to share my story. I want to share my story. If there's any way that I can help young people not make the same mistakes, if I can help young people believe that they are not the thing that they did, right. That they are worth something. And there are people in this world that care about them, even though they haven't had the ability to see it yet.
00:45:01
Speaker
The right people have not been in their lives in a healthy way to do the thing because as a society, we do not address trauma and trauma is going to move. Right. As a parent, if I don't, first of all, as a parent, you have been in my body. Yeah.
00:45:14
Speaker
You have experienced what my grandmother experienced. Yes. So all of the historical stuff, you are holding it I'm passing that on to you. And so I have to hold that first, that that is a real thing.
00:45:28
Speaker
Not even to mention, as I'm navigating now in this world, if I haven't had this healing, then I am what? I'm yelling at you. I'm not listening to you. I'm, what am I doing as a parent in the way that I move in this world?
00:45:39
Speaker
Right. And I was actually speaking at Lipscomb University. i'd had a relationship with Kathy Simbach, and she told Travis Claybrooks, you have to go and listen to this woman speak. You have to get to know her.
00:45:53
Speaker
And so he waited and met with me afterwards, and he and I went to go eat eventually, and it was that space of like, have heard restorative justice? I was like...
00:46:05
Speaker
Well, you know, think I've read a couple of books, like a couple things of things have crossed my desk in a particular way, but I had no concept yeah of it. And then I was like, oh like that's what we had. Right. We had that in a really unscheduled way.
00:46:20
Speaker
Right. It was just this. And that's what it's supposed to be. yeah Like the traditions that come from Native people yeah said like We come to each other in community. You have wronged me in community and I come to you because I still love you.
00:46:34
Speaker
The thing that you did was not fair and it is not fair for me to act like it didn't happen. Right? right right Right. You were wrong. and We got to talk about this yeah and we got to make a plan on what this looks like in our community and how we move forward.
00:46:47
Speaker
And that then creates buy-in for the other person to say, i wasn't outcast. I was still loved. I was still welcomed. I was still invited. I was still supported in the way that I needed to move in my positive transformation.
00:46:59
Speaker
And so being able to come together and be able to be in a work that says we will give people the tools that they need to be able to build the mechanisms to have these conversations, to sit in discomfort and really question all of the language that we use.
00:47:15
Speaker
yeah All of the spaces that we try to say we will be protected instead of understanding that that vulnerability is a strength, right?
Empathy, Love, and Societal Change
00:47:21
Speaker
We have to redefine every bit of the things that we have been conditioned to. so And so being able to move with people who have been harmed in our society now and say, like, I am here for you.
00:47:32
Speaker
and I'm going to sit with you. And you can be angry and you can be sad and you can go through every layer of every emotion that you need to have. And I still love you. And I'm still going to sit with you.
00:47:42
Speaker
And we're going to make this look right the way you wanted to make it. Look right. Right. And for a young person to say the same to them. yeah Like, I don't want you away from my community. I want you with us. Yes. We need your knowledge. We need your strength. We need your insight. We need all of the things that you have.
00:47:59
Speaker
That is beautiful. And it doesn't need to be locked away somewhere. It has to be nurtured. Mm-hmm. Right. And so how does our society actually change when you have this healing that's happening in this actual community that's coming together saying we demand something different. We demand healing. We demand unity. We demand community. Right.
00:48:17
Speaker
um Yeah. So that's like that's how I got to restore to justice. That's how i come to the work. That's how I like. All of that stuff merges together for me. Oh, my God. Like, the pat I was just going to sit here and listen to you, and I could probably do that for another hour of of you speaking that passion, the passion that you have for the work and what it looks like. what Like, what I heard was unconditional love that we do not share. We do not show each other. And we show punishment, and that punishment looks like this. And that is not the conditional the unconditional love that we require as humans
00:48:53
Speaker
to thrive. And we make mistakes. That is that is human. That in itself is human. We do things that will hurt people. We do things that will be wrong to other people.
00:49:04
Speaker
But in the same breath of holding space for love, holding space for the emotions felt on this side and the experiences felt on this side and everything in between, like that is what we need to create more spaces where that is allowed in our schools, in our, ah in, in, in,
00:49:22
Speaker
corporate spaces in every aspect and relationships and personal relationships like that type of justice needs to be had. Can you give me maybe some some brief some brief strategies on how someone out there, an organization can implement some form of restorative justice, whether it be for a kid or an adult?
00:49:46
Speaker
Yeah. Um, I, I mean, I love thinking about the parenting space with children and, you know, so often what I have witnessed and what I have been exposed to is as an adult, you see something happening, you scold the child and say, go apologize.
00:50:04
Speaker
And that's it. Right. Um, being in a space of actually going, and we we draw our attention first to the child who is doing the thing wrong, right?
00:50:16
Speaker
Instead of saying like, oh, Reggie, he took your ball, right? Like, how did that feel? He took the ball and he popped it. Like, how does that feel for you? What do you need? Like, do you want to tell him about that?
00:50:28
Speaker
How do you want me as an adult to show up for you, right? Like, what do you want me to do? Because what we often do is say, like, as the adult, I know exactly what needs to happen. yeah We're so arrogant. We're yeah such an arrogant people. yes right I know exactly what needs to happen.
00:50:43
Speaker
I've got this. i will take control and I will completely eliminate you from this process. And that's what the criminal legal system does. Instead of saying... We will actually teach accountability.
00:50:55
Speaker
We will teach empathy. We will teach how to live in community together. And so you see young person harmed and going to them and saying, hey, but just i saw what happened to you. That wasn't right.
00:51:08
Speaker
Like, what do you need me to do? What do you want me to do? What do you want to happen? And I have these conversations with young people all the time. I just did a um ah job fair at a school and had this conversation. And I was like, and what do you want? And they're like, I just want them to stop. Like, I want my friend.
00:51:21
Speaker
Right. None of them ask for punishment. None. Yeah. Kids do not ask for punishment. They don't ask anything. They just go in love. yeah Right. Like, oh, there's some people playing. Like, I'm out. like kick Right? There's none of the social awkwardness that we are, like, conditioned to be in as adults.
00:51:37
Speaker
Kids have so much wisdom. Yes. That we take or strip away from them and we don't learn from them. Like you said, we're arrogant. We need to learn from them. Yes. Exclamation point, exclamation point, exclamation point. Right? Like, yes. So how do we say, like, yeah, how do we show up? What do you need? And then to the person who caused the harm just to or to the young person say, like, okay, what is it that you want to say to them? And how do you want me to be supportive in that conversation?
00:51:57
Speaker
And for them to go and be like, okay, you know, Reggie, you took my ball and I didn't like that and I still want to play with you. Like, please don't take my ball anymore. And for Reggie to hear like, yeah, you know what?
00:52:09
Speaker
I was wrong. I'm not going to take your ball anymore. Yes. And sorry I took your ball. Like, yeah, can we go play? Right? Like, it's so easy. It's so natural. yeah And so I think, but I think where our society would change the most is if adults began to listen and nurture what children are arley already really, really good at.
00:52:28
Speaker
They have not been tainted in the way that the rest of us have been tainted. Yes. um I think even in the corporate space going and when you recognize what has happened, I think we have to shift like what HR looks like. Yeah.
00:52:40
Speaker
Right. if We can't just keep saying criminal legal system is this and nothing else. HR is this and nothing else. Relationships are this and nothing else. Masculinity is this and nothing else. Right. Like mental health is this and nothing else. Right. Like spiritual, like all of it. We just say, you know, i don't want to put me in a box, but I'm going to box everything up. And if you don't fit in this box, then you are wrong. Yeah. You know?
00:53:04
Speaker
um So we, I think we have to be courageous. I think we have to be vulnerable. I think we have to say, um and acknowledge like the things that we're doing in the way that we're moving in this world are not accurate. They're not helpful. They're not healing. They're not in love.
00:53:18
Speaker
And how do we move in all of these ways? How do we deconstruct the boxes? How do we learn from young people specifically what we should be doing? Because they've got that wisdom.
00:53:29
Speaker
Yeah. That's so beautiful. Wow. Wow. Wow. I do not want to wrap this up, but before we do, i have a segment where we do a little fill in the blank. And so you let me know again.
00:53:40
Speaker
First thing, it could be one word. It can be a whole story, whatever you want. but It's all good. It's all good. Whatever you need, whatever you need. ah So the first one is vulnerability makes me feel blank.
00:53:57
Speaker
So the word that came to my mind, which I know is not the word that has come to my mind in the past, is safe. Wow.
00:54:07
Speaker
Wow.
00:54:09
Speaker
That's powerful.
00:54:12
Speaker
My biggest superpower is blank. ah Loving people. Yeah, it shines. It shows. Yeah, I love that. I got, i got, I want to ask this question in two versions, two ways. um If I could tell anyone who is serving a prison sentence right now, it would be this.
00:54:39
Speaker
If I could tell them anything, it would be this. That there are people fighting. That there are people fighting for you. That there are people that love you. There are people that believe that what is happening to you is not okay. And there's a
Resilience and Hope for the Future
00:54:52
Speaker
lot of that.
00:54:52
Speaker
That was one of the things I don't think I ever knew while i was inside. And when I came home and saw how many people really like sacrifice themselves in so much to say, like, I'm going to fight for the people that are there. I'm going to fight for the oppressed. I'm going to fight for the marginalized.
00:55:09
Speaker
I had no idea that anybody cared about us. And so I would want them to know that. Yeah. the other part of that, if I could tell my younger self anything, it would be blank.
00:55:26
Speaker
ah This is the space of, like, for me, how does your life alter if you have particular information?
00:55:39
Speaker
And...
00:55:42
Speaker
as horrible as it may seem like I would tell you that I would give almost anything for Cynthia to be alive and for a me to have made a different decision at that time. And also I would not be the person that I,
00:55:53
Speaker
um, and my child wouldn't be here. And I know that that's, there's a layer of that that's selfish because Cynthia doesn't have an opportunity to have a child. And those are the complexities that we sit in sometimes of this is how my heart moves. And I wish she was here and I wish she had a family or whatever the thing that she wanted. Right. Right. Like, I don't know what she wanted and I wish all of the things had come true for her.
00:56:16
Speaker
Yeah. And I wish the things that I've been able to experience and I don't take any of the blessings that I have for granted either. Yeah. I think what, I think the wish that I would have is that the traumas in our community were addressed and dealt with in a way that, that, that the two didn't have to be in in competition with each other.
00:56:38
Speaker
Yeah. Right. She should be able to have all of the things that she wished for and her family should never have experienced the things that they did. And all of who I was without trauma should have been able to thrive. Mm-hmm.
00:56:51
Speaker
And I should have been able to have my baby boy, Blake, right? In a healthy way that was set up without all of the other stuff. yeah And maybe we were neighbors, maybe we were friends, maybe we whatever, but they don't, you know, what would it look like if our shared interest space don't become in conflict with one another, but can actually be really molded together?
00:57:10
Speaker
That's so beautiful. It's so beautiful. And I sense so much love for your your journey and and and respect for the journey because it has made you who you are. And I say that vulnerability is an ultimate act of self-love because in order to love the person that I am today, I have to love all those different parts of my past.
00:57:33
Speaker
And you have so brilliantly and beautifully exposed to me and to the world and to so many people those parts of your past that have made you to who you are today and the amazing human that you are, the amazing woman that you are. And it's so inspiring.
00:57:51
Speaker
You've inspired me. i know you've inspired so countless others and ah continue to do amazing work to help so many people and to help those who are ah who are fighting a fight that they may not see the tomorrow. They may not think that there is a way out, but there is a way out because there are people like you out there.
00:58:10
Speaker
And it's so beautiful. And so it i want to i want one last question just for some inspiration. Where do you turn when you need inspiration? Is it the book? Is it a movie? Is it a person? what What things do you turn to when you need inspiration?
00:58:25
Speaker
um Could I answer this in two parts? As many parts as you want. I don't think of them is not necessarily an answer, but in in response to what you said a moment ago, um i think oftentimes when we see people who have had particular experiences come and then begin to do well in our communities, that we see them as the one who could do well in our communities instead of understanding that I'm only an example.
00:58:54
Speaker
Yeah. that there are so many people inside that have a better heart than I have, that are more brilliant than I am, that have ideas that could change this world. Yes. And all of that.
00:59:05
Speaker
And we may never see that. And so fully leaning into like so much gratitude for the way that you receive me and you welcome me into this space and receive the things that I have to offer this world.
00:59:20
Speaker
And knowing that it is just an example, right? This is a fraction from all of the people who have had these experiences and who having them today. No.
00:59:31
Speaker
um So say there's that part. I think there is the,
00:59:37
Speaker
strength of all of the people that I've had experiences with over the years that I feel fully in a space of, I move in this world because of the shared experiences that we have.
00:59:54
Speaker
And with the welcome and strength that I think that I've received from them, that they want me to go forward and move in this world in a particular way. I, and And exclaim like I am an example, right? If they need that.
01:00:09
Speaker
yeah And they've given me the honor to say that for them right also. right And there's a lot of strength there's a lot of strength in that of saying I come from, i mean, I have literally been chained naked to sisters.
01:00:27
Speaker
And to have them say like, I welcome you in this space and I welcome you in this work and I celebrate you in the things that are going forward, even though I'm still incarcerated. Right. Like I can't tell you how many people lay claims to Blake, right? Like Blake for them who they heard about for two decades. They're like, yes, Blake is here. Right. like he is a beacon of hope. Wow.
01:00:50
Speaker
for them who are still in a space of like, you know, a dream can come true for us because we do end up as like this, this joint community of experiences, yeah right? Things are possible.
01:01:02
Speaker
We can move forward. Like these things can be beautiful. There can be healing. We can use the things that have hurt us the most, most in healing ways. You know, this can be this thing that I've experienced shouldn't ever happened, but it can also bring forth really beautiful things.
01:01:18
Speaker
Wow, that's so powerful. and and And to say, like, you're an example. And i say, like, there are there are certain ah exceptions, too, right? The exception of being able to come out and be the person that you are to inspire. like we have many exceptions in in the world and we accept those as the normal and it's like our job isn't done until the exceptions from all this trauma from all the lives that are lived and and what we hope that somebody gets to like those exceptions need to be the standard of like excellence for us all and we all deserve that and so i'm i'm hoping that for for you and for everybody that you encounter and every every soul that you touch so thank you so much how can people
01:02:06
Speaker
Learn more about your story or Rafah Institute and the work that you're doing. How can they connect with you guys? Yeah, so
01:02:23
Speaker
We're Rafa Institute on all social media platforms. You know, that is the space that I feel like I've been able to serve. there's not and don't feel like that's work. I feel like that is my service. um And I don't, whether healthy or unhealthy, Reg, we ain't got to go into that, but I don't necessarily have a huge barrier in defining, like, what is personal and what is service. Mm-hmm.
01:02:44
Speaker
Because I feel like this is this is the reason I'm out, right? Like this is the reason that I've been given some of the privileges that I've given been given is to be able to be in this space. Yeah.
01:02:55
Speaker
Um, definitely encourage people to do that. We do have a breakfast event coming up on April the 23rd. Um, and that information's in our social media space too. If anybody wants to come out and join us and hear firsthand stories of individuals who have actually gone through relationship with us, um,
01:03:15
Speaker
from the criminal legal system to early education in our impoverished areas. So yeah um I look forward for them checking all of that out. Yeah, that's amazing. I got one more question. What do you do or what are you planning on doing for the rest of the day and how do you decompress from when you after you share so much with others?
01:03:34
Speaker
So I've got to go get some milk. Okay. Because me my child doesn't have any almond milk at the house. Okay. And he has made sure to let me know that.
01:03:47
Speaker
Somebody wanted some cereal. So I'm going to go do that. And then going to come home and I'm hero because I brought home Mom and Yay, that's it. And I'm going to take the hug and I'm going to do all the things. Oh, that's beautiful.
01:03:58
Speaker
hold on to hold onto him as tight as I can and continue to pick him up for as long as I am strong enough to yeah to carry his big tail until he can carry me So I'm going to do that. I'm also like the best storyteller ever as far as like reading book, not my story. As far as like reading books, reading books, reading books, reading books. So um that's that's ah that's a daytime ritual or nighttime ritual that we have is getting the book and mommy doing all the different voices and stuff. So that's fine that's what will be in store tonight. I'll text you and let you know what book we read. Good.
01:04:30
Speaker
ah Ashley, thank you so much. This has been an honor, truly. And with all the places you could be, all the things you could be doing, I appreciate you being here with me. embracing Thank you for joining us in another episode of Vulnerability Muscle.
01:04:44
Speaker
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01:04:59
Speaker
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01:05:14
Speaker
Visit vulnerabilitymuscle.com for additional resources and support. And remember, embracing vulnerability is not a sign of weakness. It is the source of your greatest strength.
01:05:25
Speaker
Sometimes it's uncomfortable, but most workouts are. So keep flexing that vulnerability.