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The Therapy That Saved My Life: Uncovering the Truth About Trauma and MDMA
14 Plays2 months ago
"I finally told someone that I was sure my father would strangle me with his bare hands—and for the first time, no one gaslit me."
In this deeply raw and revelatory episode, Reggie D. Ford sits down with Jill Sitnik, founder of The Journey Sage, for an unflinching look at childhood trauma, PTSD, and how MDMA-assisted therapy saved her life. Jill shares the hidden costs of appearing “fine” on the outside while living in a state of inner panic and survival. She walks us through her experience of surviving parental abuse, losing her partner and emotional regulator, and reaching a point where traditional therapy and antidepressants were no longer enough.
Together, they explore the science and soul of psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy—what it is, what it isn't, and why it's not a shortcut but a sacred path that requires deep emotional work. Jill breaks down what MDMA therapy actually feels like, how it helped her reprocess traumatic memories, and why she’s now dedicated to educating others so they don’t have to suffer in silence.
Whether you're curious about alternative treatments, have survived trauma, or simply want a more honest conversation about healing, this episode will leave you moved, informed, and empowered.
Topics covered:
- Complex trauma and survival adaptations mistaken for personality
- Widow’s fog, grief, and the body’s memory of fear
- How MDMA-assisted therapy helped Jill shift lifelong narratives
- The importance of integration after psychedelic experiences
- Risks, myths, and ethical considerations in psychedelic treatment
- Why healing isn’t easy—but it’s absolutely worth it
Call to Action:
If you've ever wondered whether your “personality” might actually be a trauma response—or if you’re searching for real, evidence-based hope—this episode will change the way you see healing.
Listen now and join us as we flex our Vulnerability Muscle in one of the most powerful episodes yet.
Guest Contact:
Website: https://thejourneysage.com
YouTube:https://www.youtube.com/@TheJourneySage
Instagram: @thejourneysage
Books:
- Rescuing Jill (Memoir)
- The Journey Workbook – For those preparing for psychedelic therapy
Host Contact:
Reggie D. Ford
Website: https://reggiedford.com
Socials: @reggiedford on all platforms
Recommended
Transcript
Emotional Intelligence and Trauma in Families
00:00:00
Speaker
I would say every adult figure and extended family member in my family had very little emotional intelligence. zero understanding of trauma, very little understanding of the importance of kindness.
00:00:15
Speaker
I know nothing about my mother's childhood. i know nothing about my father's childhood. And that's usually a sign when they don't talk about their childhood that they weren't that great.
00:00:26
Speaker
It wasn't that my mother and father didn't love me. It's that they did not grow up learning the skills and therefore did not have the capacity to show love in a way that was appropriate.
Introduction to 'Vulnerability Muscle' Podcast
00:00:39
Speaker
Welcome to Vulnerability Muscle, the inspiring podcast challenging norms and helping you redefine vulnerability as a strength.
00:00:47
Speaker
I'm your host, Reggie D. Ford. Each episode of Vulnerability Muscle dives into a variety of topics such as mental health, social issues, and mindset shifts. We explore the power of vulnerability and fostering meaningful connections.
00:01:03
Speaker
healing, building resilience, and promoting personal growth. Sometimes these conversations are uncomfortable, but good workouts often are. So join us and flex that vulnerability muscle.
00:01:16
Speaker
Hello, welcome to this episode of Vulnerability Muscle. I'm your host, Reggie Ford.
Jill Sitnik and MDMA Therapy for PTSD
00:01:21
Speaker
I'm here today with Jill Sitnik. Jill is the founder of The Journey Sage, an educational platform that demystifies MDMA therapy for PTSD to help dispel the stigma of psychedelics for mental health.
00:01:36
Speaker
After a lifetime of unprocessed childhood trauma, I can relate. Jill found healing through psychedelic assisted psychotherapy, which was ah FDA delayed in August 2024. I want to get into that. She is an author, educator and YouTube advocate for MDMA therapy for PTSD treatment.
00:01:58
Speaker
In 2025, she is beginning her psychedelic integration coaching practice. So, oh, that's so exciting. Jill, welcome to the show. How are you? I'm doing really well. Thank you so much for having me.
00:02:12
Speaker
I think it's going to be a fun conversation. I think so as well. And I want to just do
Healing Journey Through Psychedelic-Assisted Psychotherapy
00:02:17
Speaker
a quick heart check. How is your heart feeling? How is the space around your heart? How is your your environment feeling?
00:02:23
Speaker
It is all good. i actually straightened up this morning. The house is in ah house is cleaner than it normally is, so everything's good. Thank you for checking in.
00:02:34
Speaker
Well, good, good. Before we dive deeper into MDMA and treatment for PTSD, and other mental health conditions because I know it's very relevant there too.
00:02:47
Speaker
i got a segment that is called what comes to mind. And so I'll ask three questions and you just let me know the first thing you think of and try not to think too hard, but feel free to expand, tell stories, whatever comes up.
00:03:02
Speaker
Okay. What comes to mind when you hear the word vulnerability? ah
00:03:10
Speaker
Courage.
00:03:14
Speaker
What do you do to center yourself, to ground yourself if you're feeling overwhelmed, stressed, or maybe even depressed? Movement. Yes. What type of movement? What's your favorite? I'm a walker. I'm a go outside, walk, throw some music on hopefully dance just a tiny bit. I'm i'm a big walker.
00:03:32
Speaker
Yes. I love walking, like learning about bilateral stimulation and how healthy and helpful that is. Like, I love it. It's so simple, but so helpful.
00:03:45
Speaker
um And last one, this is one that people need to think on sometimes, but what is one of your favorite childhood memories?
Childhood Memories and Family Dynamics
00:03:54
Speaker
ah going to Hershey Park when I was ah under 10 years old and my stepsister and I had to hold the 10 pound Hershey chocolate bar.
00:04:06
Speaker
And even even at that age, we acknowledged it was too big.
00:04:14
Speaker
10 pound dang like i don't even know if they have them anymore but it was there's a picture of us holding this gigantic hershey bar and we i remember we kind of looked at each other because we were like do we make the effort to convince the parents to do this we were kind of like i don't really think it's worth it how much is a 10 pound hershey bar away or or not way we know how much it weighs how much does it cost Oh, sweetie, i'm I'm old. This was, I mean, i have no idea. Since we didn't work on acquiring said Choclophar, I have no idea.
00:04:51
Speaker
But I mean, this was in like the 80s, so. Oh, man. Well, that that's a great memory. Parent pricing, yeah. No, that is a great memory. Wow, that that's so cool.
00:05:02
Speaker
it's It's the classic, like, are the siblings going to come together are they the normal frenemies that they are? Kind of, yeah. how did y'all How did y'all interact with each other?
Frenemy Relationships and Emotional Capacity of Adults
00:05:13
Speaker
ah She was my stepsister for about a year and a half, and it was absolutely a frenemy situation, as often is with blended families that...
00:05:23
Speaker
where the adults in the room are really not emotionally mature. And so we're still in touch. We still text occasionally. So all is forgiven from way back when, when we were little ones on roller skates.
00:05:38
Speaker
but Yes. Good, good. That's good to hear. um You spoke a little bit about ah the the emotional capacity of the adults. can you Can you elaborate a little bit more on that?
00:05:50
Speaker
I would say every adult figure and extended family member in my family had very little emotional intelligence, zero understanding of trauma, ah zero understand.
00:06:05
Speaker
That's that's extreme. I apologize. um Very little understanding of the importance of kindness. um My family history on both sides, I think probably had an awful lot of trauma that hindered the ability to openly share love,
00:06:25
Speaker
to maybe even feel love to definitely feel joy. um and that is all anecdotal. That is all evidence based from my own observation.
00:06:37
Speaker
i know nothing about my mother's childhood. i know nothing about my father's childhood. And that's usually a sign when they don't talk about their childhood that they weren't that great.
00:06:48
Speaker
I know I had that symptomology too. And um really just through my healing, it has taken a long process to finally get to the point of it wasn't that my mother and father didn't love me.
00:07:02
Speaker
It's that they did not grow up learning the skills and therefore did not have the capacity to show love in a way that was appropriate. They showed it in other ways that hindsight 2020, I had to kind of figure out Um, but I think a lot of people that listen, a lot of people in your audience will probably be nodding their head when they say, oh yeah, my mom or dad kind of emotionally deficient in X, y Z. Yeah. I, I resonate with that a lot and just trying to, as an adult now understand how to love and how to be loved because like both of those are very crucial in relationship.
Poetry and Expanding Love Capacity
00:07:42
Speaker
And in fact, you just, you just brought up, uh, uh, I guess it's a poem. I don't know. It's something I wrote recently around this like very topic. So bear with me. I'm going to read this. And um it it's kind of stylized, too. So everywhere love or evolve, it's it's capitalized. so um But it says, I'm working to expand my capacity to love and be loved unconditionally.
00:08:10
Speaker
This is one of the most difficult parts of recovering from complex trauma. There are times when I feel like I'm giving and receiving love as my soul was meant to, but often there are periods when I unconsciously and sometimes consciously block the mission of my soul.
00:08:28
Speaker
Our soul's mission is to love. To love comes with great risk, but the act of loving and being loved is the greatest reward. To love is to open yourself up to immense pain.
00:08:41
Speaker
Yet there is no pleasure as sweet as the one that comes from love. To love requires unimaginable sacrifice. But when we sacrifice, we savor the outcome, knowing it took a heroic effort to realize the possibilities.
00:08:56
Speaker
To love requires you to evolve. Evolution isn't easy, but it reminds us that we are resilient. that we can endure harsh realities and come out stronger in spite of them, that we can learn and grow and heal and resist and rise and survive, that we can thrive, that we can remain alive.
00:09:18
Speaker
To love is to live free and full of joy. I'm working to expand my capacity to love and be loved unconditionally. I utter these words for accountability. I utter these words because to communicate how I'm feeling.
00:09:33
Speaker
I understand from my journey of evolution that communication, necessary and difficult, is loving. So i remove the filters, the fears, the facades that keep me small, that make me feel safe.
00:09:46
Speaker
That false sense of safety creates barriers that impede my ability to show up as the most evolved version of myself, the most loving version of myself. I bear my heart, my loving heart, as boldly as I can, knowing there's a chance it could shatter.
00:10:03
Speaker
But when I surrender and release the fear of devastating heartbreak, I began to uncover the expansion that I've spent a lifetime seeking.
00:10:13
Speaker
So what you just said about love, like i I just wrote this maybe like a week or two ago. And so that just like shows that we are on, we are aligned and I cannot wait to dive deeper into this. And that's the most that I'll talk today. And I feel bad because I want to highlight you and your story and what you've been doing.
00:10:35
Speaker
I was an old English teacher. That was lovely. o Thank you. Thank you.
Early Childhood Trauma and Healing Realizations
00:10:41
Speaker
So tell me a little bit more about how those early experiences shaped you in and and molded you into the person that you've become.
00:10:50
Speaker
So to just give the audience an overview of what my early childhood was like, my mother was ah diagnosed with treatment-resistant depression. And it probably wasn't called that back in the day, but she was on a variety of medications. And my early childhood was punctuated with her attempting suicide multiple times.
00:11:10
Speaker
The last one that she attempted was with a shotgun when I was five. She survived. Wow. And my father was a domestic abuser, mental and physical. And so my childhood, with my early childhood was punctuated with a lot of anger, a lot of violence, lot of fighting.
00:11:29
Speaker
After five, when my mom um attempted suicide with a shotgun, there was a lot of housing insecurity, a lot of food insecurity. And so what my childhood developed was an adult very anxious, very focused on safety, very focused on control.
00:11:49
Speaker
um There was always a plan A, B, C, D, e I always lived below my means. I've started saving, like as soon as I wasn't living paycheck to paycheck, like whatever I could save got saved because you just never knew what was going to happen.
00:12:06
Speaker
Mm-hmm. And so i would say i thought that was just my personality. It wasn't until later on, which I'm sure we'll get to that. I just kind of thought I'm type a I'm a good planner.
00:12:19
Speaker
I'm well educated about how to do certain things because I've done that and I don't want to be my parents. But I had no idea that that pa behavior was really fueled by trauma.
00:12:32
Speaker
That is so insightful to recognize that. what we call personality shaped by a lot of times our trauma and the things that we experienced as children. i i say it ah a lot about my own experiences as I developed a lot of this same tendencies to be very strategic and have plan A, B, C, know the escape routes of, you know, any type of situation, because that's what kept me safe yeah when I was a child.
00:13:01
Speaker
And i really appreciate you opening up and sharing so vulnerably about your childhood in that experience, because it I mean, that, that is, that is, it, it's heartbreaking that a child has to be exposed to that, but you, you've persevered and you've, you've made meaning of those experiences, which is, which is, gives people hope. So I think that is super, a great thing that comes from the resilience that you've had.
00:13:30
Speaker
there's a, I think we're going to get to the point where the work, there was a lot of work involved. I don't want anybody to think that this was number one, easy or number two, um,
00:13:42
Speaker
I don't want to say, actually, I was just about to say, I don't want to say it was quick, but it was actually relatively quick compared to plain talk therapy. So and we can kind of get into that when you're ready.
00:13:54
Speaker
Yeah. When did the the realization that, oh, my trauma has impacted the way that I operate, that is showing up as personality, how I, um you know, when did that realization come?
00:14:06
Speaker
Yeah. ah It actually came later. So my long-term partner, Carl, had passed away. I did not realize he was my emotional regulator.
00:14:17
Speaker
For a lot of people, if you do have someone in your life who shows you love and kindness and warmth, it really can make you kind of transform and kind of, I wouldn't say forget, but definitely put compartmentalize that bad part of your life.
00:14:36
Speaker
When he passed away, because of plan A, B, C, D, and e everything was fine. I was working at Microsoft, my house was paid off, I had a boyfriend, I mean, this is like a year and a half later, like everything on the surface seemed fine.
00:14:50
Speaker
But the widow's fog had been decreasing when the widow's fog just makes you care about nothing. and So that started decreasing and i had a relatively stressful job at the time and I got an email about something ridiculous and I flipped out and I basically went into a pdf PTSD panic that within a month I was going to lose my house. I was going to lose my job. I was going to be living in a car.
00:15:18
Speaker
And even though I knew it up here, my body was acting, wasn't sleeping, i wasn't eating well, i with my my ear my shoulders were up to my ears.
00:15:31
Speaker
you know, all the symptoms of a body, like if you're on the edge of a cliff and you're terrified, that's how I was living. And so when I went to my therapist who I had hired to help me with my grief work, like I had treated myself to someone to listen to me going through grief is really the way I saw it.
00:15:51
Speaker
When this happened, I went back to her and very long story short, we finally started diving into some of my childhood stuff. And i was on a Wellbutrin prescription, which is an antidepressant.
00:16:04
Speaker
I was doing the talk therapy. I was doing the normal process. And after a few months of that, I was getting worse. I was slowly getting to the point of being very interested in suicide.
00:16:18
Speaker
Wow. Wow. You mentioned a term that I hadn't heard before, but the ah widow's fog. oh Can you explain that and what what what that looked like and when that transition like when that transition happened? what does What does that mean?
00:16:35
Speaker
Yeah, it's hard to give an analogy for widow's fog. I think anybody in your audience who has experienced deep grief, ah partner a partner, parent, a child, or someone you just really, really, really love, um widow's fog is...
00:16:50
Speaker
is
00:16:53
Speaker
It's a protective strategy. This is the way I would describe it, and I'm not a doctor. I would describe it as a protective strategy that lets you just continue moving through life, but...
00:17:07
Speaker
certain parts of your brain almost feel like they're shut down. Like you just don't care about things anymore. It's kind of, um you've just been shocked and, and you're just kind of robotically doing things. I mean, i remember one of my best friends had to come over to the house and she sat and she handed me a sheet of paper at a time.
00:17:28
Speaker
Like as I started going through things um and what widow's fog can do, it can protect you from the onslaught of everything coming at you because there's lots to be done when someone passes and you're kind of restructuring your life.
00:17:42
Speaker
um as As the, I don't care about anything, widow's fog was decreasing. That's where the childhood trauma, the, oh my gosh, you just had the rug pulled out from you. You lost your partner and now your job is changing, which it wasn't, but that was my interpretation. It was just too much for my nervous system to handle in a PTSD crisis.
00:18:07
Speaker
Wow.
PTSD Crisis and Widow's Fog Explanation
00:18:08
Speaker
I, I resonate with that and not, not from a widower's perspective, but from having experienced some significant grief and loss in in my life.
00:18:20
Speaker
And again, like, ah well, we were talking about this before we hopped on, but 2019 was when my mental health journey really began. And in that period, losing um the nurturers and and some some people who weren't so great in my life, but were very significant in my life, like in back-to-back sequencing. And i wow, like I had been so type A and so on top of things and then got to a place where it slows down. I was like, oh, I can't respond to email. I'm missing emails and i have a system in my email inbox and everything. And it's still like I'm missing things.
00:19:00
Speaker
I'm not responding to things. And things aren't as important all of a sudden. oh yeah. Nothing was important. nothing felt important. Conversations, like sitting in a conversation with somebody and we're talking about what, like it doesn't matter.
00:19:16
Speaker
Yes. And so, wow. Thank you for, for putting words to and, and, and articulating it the way that you did, because I think it's, it's very significant and real. And then to, to feel the flooding of all of that trauma being triggered and re reignited. Oh my goodness.
00:19:34
Speaker
Oh my goodness. So you were in, traditional therapy and, and had some medication as well. And and you felt things were getting worse.
00:19:45
Speaker
Oh, they were getting worse. There was. I mean, here's what I've learned since. So I did not believe my therapist when she said I had PTSD. I was like, Microsoft corporate girl. Oh, my house.
00:19:59
Speaker
Come on. Have you met me? that's That was my attitude. yeah And she had me read The Body Keeps the Score. Yes. And that's when I learned there is, it's not, it's not a mental thing to get over your trauma.
00:20:14
Speaker
Trauma is in your body. When, when you're standing on the edge of a cliff, your mind is going, oh my gosh, and whatever curses you're, you're, you're dealing with. In addition, most people will realize their body is having a reaction they have no control over.
00:20:32
Speaker
Right. And so that's very much what I learned trauma does. So there was no way to outrun this. There was no way to medicated away. It was always going to be there until I dealt with it.
00:20:44
Speaker
And, um, I landed in this therapy by chance because my therapist you know seeing things were declining, she said, look, I'm in training to become a psychedelic-assisted psychotherapist.
00:21:00
Speaker
I'm working with MDMA, which has, at the time, the two clinical trials over at maps.org, M-A-P-S.org. And so between the body keeps the score, between my therapist being the person to help deliver the therapy and the research that's ultimately, and, and really I was getting worse. I wasn't getting better.
00:21:23
Speaker
And so those were the decisions that went into it. Cause I was a child of the eighties. I remember the egg in the frying pan. I was not into drugs. So it took a bit of a, yeah.
00:21:34
Speaker
Yeah. But, but it's, it's, I'm it, I am learning more about psychedelic assisted therapy for my own journey and just understanding, you know, I've i've been to conferences and learned.
MDMA Therapy and Traditional Treatment Limitations
00:21:46
Speaker
I've watched the documentaries and read books. Michael Pollan's work has been very informative for me.
00:21:54
Speaker
And um there is so much, well, I would say not so much, there is research, not as much as it would be if these things hadn't been legalized when they were legalized, but, or illegalized, but. yeah But there is research that suggests and shows that it has beneficial, you know, ah attributes to helping trauma.
00:22:16
Speaker
Oh, yeah. So when you, what, what, um I guess, what preparation and resources did you lean on? And what did you do before you said, yes, I'm gonna ingest this into my body?
00:22:31
Speaker
Oh, the the resources were the antidepressant and the talk therapy. Yeah. Which were not working. And that was enough to say I'm doing something different. Well, there is no other established like emdr EMDR, which I had done once as a child.
00:22:49
Speaker
I'm sorry, as a ah child, i i'm i want I'm old. I did it in my early twenties. Um, that was not going to work. I was getting desperate. um I mean, I know you're seeing you're seeing the Instagram reel right now. You're seeing the after.
00:23:04
Speaker
I was pretty desperate. And I really do think that if it had gone six more months, I probably would not be here wow without this medical intervention. There was no reason to live.
00:23:18
Speaker
i I don't know if I can clarify. I had everything I thought I needed to live a good life. I was financially secure. My house couldn't be taken away from me. There was food in the refrigerator.
00:23:32
Speaker
had friends who loved me dearly. I had pets that were well fed. Like everything i had traveled, like everything was checked off and I was still terrified.
00:23:43
Speaker
And when there's no end to that terror, do you want to live your entire life on the edge of a cliff? No, absolutely not. So that's, that's where we were. Wow. ah It's so it like profound to, to know, like to, to explain it in that way, because your body is sensing like threat constantly.
00:24:03
Speaker
Yes. And it it's not, it may not be an apparent physical threat to your life, but your life feels threatened and emotionally threatened. That downstairs brain in your body, it's feeling all of that fear.
00:24:15
Speaker
It's feeling threat. It's feeling attacked. And you were living in that. And yeah. So to clarify for your audience, what was happening, what very often happens when your body is responding in a way that you don't think it should be responding in a situation, you're not on that ledge.
00:24:35
Speaker
And yet your body is freaking out for some reason. It's usually a younger age. It's usually for me, a lot of it was three to five years old. Yeah. A little bit of 10, a little bit of 16. That's usually a learned response from something that happened in your childhood, need that was not met.
00:24:55
Speaker
I was terrified throughout my childhood. My father was a vicious guy. And so that's what we were seeing. I thought there was all this danger because as a child, I never resolved that fear of my father.
00:25:09
Speaker
There's a lot of hindsight 2020 coming at you there and a lot of work, but that's kind of what it was. Yeah. One thing that opened my eyes to that was the work that Nadine Burke Harris, Dr. Nadine Burke Harris does around ACEs, Adverse Childhood Experiences.
00:25:24
Speaker
Okay. And I first saw her TED Talk. And it opened my eyes to, you know childhood trauma and its correlation to negative health outcomes later in life.
00:25:36
Speaker
And then i went and took the questionnaire. It's 10 questions about different types of trauma that you experience in the household alone ah before your 18th birthday. Yep.
00:25:48
Speaker
And I'm checking the You're checking it off. And you're like, this is my life. 10 out of 10. 10 out of 10. And I'm, but like you said, it's just normal. Like, like this is just life. It's, it's the mundane life that I experienced, not knowing the effects that that had on me throughout that entire time.
00:26:06
Speaker
But our bodies are wise and our bodies know remember and they remember. And so Like what are, what were some of the signs? So standing on the edge of that cliff, what were some of the bodily sensations that you would feel that, that maybe somebody who, who hadn't been connected to their body or been aware of this, what would they experience or what did you experience at least?
00:26:27
Speaker
Well, I think I had the normal upset stomach, not sleeping well, ah shoulders. Again, i think I was always just very, very tight. ah used to also get a burning pain in the back of my neck, which i eventually identified was ah the tent my myself at 10 feeling trapped, hiding in my closet after getting beaten.
00:26:49
Speaker
And I couldn't figure out a way to escape. like I just so couldn't figure out a way. And so... I noticed that whenever I started to learn that whenever that little fire showed up, it was Jill feeling trapped.
00:27:02
Speaker
um And there was a so there was another physical thing and um it lost my went right out of my head. There you go. Look look how quickly that happened.
00:27:13
Speaker
was it Was it memory loss? Was that part of it at times?
00:27:19
Speaker
that's Just age. That's just age. ah No, the sleeping poorly, the always feeling the always feeling on edge. ah Oh, I remember what it was. So one of the things that I learned very quickly, my therapist is really brilliant. She's brilliant.
00:27:36
Speaker
And in trying to help help me understand my physical response, because I just thought this was me. This is just me. And so we were having a conversation, some work thing, and some colleague was doing something stupid and, you know, whatever.
00:27:53
Speaker
And I remember saying to her, well, that's when I get the steel rod out. And she went, what? So I had just become so accustomed to just receiving abuse and receiving negativity that in my mind, my spine became a steel rod.
00:28:14
Speaker
And that's just like... Here I am, but I'm going to be strong when I get whatever's coming at me. And that was one of our conversations of, so let's really talk about that body awareness and why that image is happening and where that came from. So that was one of our starting little steps.
00:28:32
Speaker
Wow. That is powerful. The steel rod and and and and that expectation of abuse in relationships. that That is something. I'm curious, um you talked about Carl being your emotional regulator.
00:28:47
Speaker
was what How was that relationship? was it was it Did it reflect or resemble some of the past abuse and things like that? Or was it something totally different? It was ah loving, kind, gentle, ah sometimes beautifully sarcastic. He had a great sense of humor and supportive.
00:29:09
Speaker
It was the complete opposite of my childhood. And um I would say, unfortunately, my anxiety was absolutely a part of that relationship.
00:29:22
Speaker
Um, but nothing, but because of the regulation, i would say the anxiety was probably at a four versus after he passed, it went straight up to a 10.
00:29:32
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Wow. Wow. So I want to hear now, just like shifting gears into how MDMA psychedelic assisted therapy helped to rewire your brain, helped to shift the narratives, helped to, to, to heal you in the way that we see today.
Experience and Process of MDMA Therapy
00:29:51
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. So just to be super clear, so I don't have expectations out the, out you know, I had 19 years of abuse to deal with.
00:30:03
Speaker
The PTSD, the reason why i always say PTSD is because the three MDMA journeys were very, very specifically targeted to Jill no longer meeting a PTSD diagnosis and no longer being suicidal.
00:30:18
Speaker
Okay. Yeah. I have continued with medicine work, with talk therapy. I still have a therapeutic relationship with my therapist. So I don't want anybody to look and say, this kind of yeah silly smiling Jill is only because of three MDMA sessions.
00:30:34
Speaker
I have continued to do work. With that disclaimer out there, what MDMA did what MDMA therapy did for me was as a trauma patient who, whose biggest issue was fear in, we spent months preparing, I had to get off of the Wellbutin prescription.
00:30:57
Speaker
We spent months talking about the issues that were coming up. What was my body telling me? And it was just a constant alarm, you know, So fear, for or fear, for fear, fear. i got to ask all the ridiculous questions I wanted to ask.
00:31:10
Speaker
I met my guide. This therapy's protocol is one patient, two people. So I had my therapist and guide and he was her mentor in her program and a medical doctor at the time.
00:31:22
Speaker
So I kind of felt like I had the Cadillac of underground therapy. Yeah. So we spent a few months, the journey day, i took the MDMA capsules and within an hour and a half with my amygdala calm down and the serotonin and the dopamine, and I am not a doctor. So go ahead and take a look at all the research to get all the brain chemicals.
00:31:45
Speaker
I finally felt, my body finally felt comfortable enough. And I remember this part because you don't remember a lot of it. For the first time, i told two people,
00:31:57
Speaker
that I was 100% sure that if my father was in the room, he would be trying to kill me with his hands around my neck. That's what my body believed. Wow.
00:32:08
Speaker
And for the first time, first of but i don't think I ever shared that with anybody. But secondly, if I e had ever talked about my father, it would have been, oh, no, he was your father. Of course, he loved you. He was doing the best he could.
00:32:19
Speaker
Right. And instead, I had two adults go, okay, tell us more. Mm-hmm. And so for a trauma patient in the MDMA session, when the medicine is in your system, it's calming the body down. It's making you want to connect.
00:32:37
Speaker
You know, there's a reason why MDMA is a party drug makes you want to connect to people. And so we wound up having the the session was very much predicated on me when I wanted to talk, when I didn't want to talk.
00:32:51
Speaker
There was much more. It was 90% Jill talking, 10% my therapist and guide because the therapy just allows the subconscious to kind of emote and wander through things.
00:33:04
Speaker
My therapist and guide only stepped in when something was really dangerous. Like if I said, I really shouldn't have been born, that kind of stuff. But everybody thinks like Western medicine that the the journey day or the procedure day is where the healing happens.
00:33:22
Speaker
It's actually much more like a surgery where the surgeon goes in on one day and does a whole bunch of stuff, but then the body has to heal. That's the way this works.
00:33:34
Speaker
So the way that I learned, because i I got out of the day and I was a little disappointed. didn't feel different. was like, what is this? But within a half an hour of driving home, and I always kind of put my hand to the side, I had three childhood memories. I felt really guilty that I had asked my boyfriend to drop me off and pick me up and nothing got done.
00:33:56
Speaker
ah didn't feel any better. And oh, what an inconvenience and what a pain in the tush and all that. I was going through this shame spiral for something that was a half an hour away. yeah That's how out of touch I was.
00:34:09
Speaker
And I had three childhood, I was looking at the window, had three childhood memories of basically being thrown from family to family. i had interpreted as I'm such an inconvenience, nobody really wants me When in reality, it was because my mother shot herself. She couldn't take care of me. My father was not going to take that task on himself. So I got kind of thrown around to family members.
00:34:37
Speaker
And thank goodness for those family members who were able to step up at the time. I wasn't an inconvenience. I was just a little kid that needed to be taken care of. Yeah.
00:34:48
Speaker
And I remember turning around to my boyfriend and saying, I think I know how this therapy works. Yeah. And so that was literally the process, almost memory by memory, shifting the perception, seeing it from ah an adult perspective versus the 10 year old or the five year old.
00:35:07
Speaker
And that's why it's a bit of work because you have to kind of rethink it. Like you can't just think it once. a lot of times you have to kind of go through it a few times. Repetition. That's how the neurons in our brains develop.
00:35:18
Speaker
That's why we use flashcards when we're learning repetition. And so the time period, the couple of months after the therapeutic journey, that's when the actual healing happens. Wow.
00:35:30
Speaker
Wow. I love, I'm just like imagining you looking out of the window and having this epiphany and that perspective shift. Like that is something like, cause it wasn't anything wrong with the 10 year old who internalized it in that way. That is developmentally normal. That is how a child will internalize it.
00:35:50
Speaker
Like, who why don't you love me? Why am I being sent over here? And it's about me. I did something bad to deserve this behavior. There's something about me. So much shame rooted in that, especially when you've experienced trauma in in before that.
00:36:06
Speaker
and so But that that isn't the whole picture. That isn't the the reality. And to be able to have this session and to reflect back and say, oh, wait,
00:36:17
Speaker
there's a different perspective here that I, that I have. Oh, that, that's beautiful. That is so beautiful. I want to, I want to just, cause I just did a a quick search and it's, it's, it's the, the, a phase three of the map um that you were speaking about.
00:36:33
Speaker
And ah compared to a placebo effect, they saw that 71% of participants in the MDA group no longer met the diagnosis for criteria for PTSD versus 47% in the placebo.
Clinical Trials and Results of Psychedelic Therapies
00:36:47
Speaker
So that is, that is pretty significant.
00:36:50
Speaker
yeah Wow. And then the maps research was faster than mine. Like we, my therapist just let me decide when I was ready for another journey, if I needed another journey, whereas the maps trials, they only gave a month in between each journey, which honestly is ah in my opinion,
00:37:12
Speaker
potentially a little short depending on the level of trauma. I was really, i was ah after the first month, I was probably still making perspective shifts.
00:37:22
Speaker
yeah So it'll be really interesting as more research moves along. I mean, if it can get done in that quick a time, I wonder if more people would, like more than 71% would actually hit would actually hit the PT, the, you know what I mean? Yeah. A little bit longer time was dedicated, but you know, that's.
00:37:42
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, that's part of the the trial and the research of it all is, is, is figuring all of that out. Wow. Uh, and I, and I know for, for just what I've learned about it, like it has a significant impact on, uh, folks who have addiction issues. Like There's a significant improvement in in that as well. Different medicines.
00:38:04
Speaker
Yep. Yeah. We can talk about all those things. Yeah. do you do you have Do you have knowledge of that? the Let's hear it. like what what ah What do you know about the how it treats addiction? like like you know people People who have experienced trauma look for peace and alleviation from that suffering, that that fear that dad is going to come and strangle you, that that fear of being on the side of the cliff. there Where can I find peace? I turn to a substance.
00:38:32
Speaker
So it's an adaptive measure, but it then becomes maladaptive. And so yeah so how does... MDMA or any other ah psychedelic help in that?
00:38:44
Speaker
So one of the things I like to focus on is the research. So ah MDMA was given FDA breakthrough therapy status for PTSD.
00:38:55
Speaker
LSD was given breakthrough status designation for treatment resistant depression and potentially anxiety because those two things go together. psilocybin, magic mushrooms, anxiety.
00:39:07
Speaker
If you go look on Hopkins website though, they will have additional research and maps also I think has additional research, ah high doses of psilocybin. And when I say a high dose, like a hero dose is classically determined as five grams of Anybody who works with psychedelics knows that that can that can change depending on a person's physiology, right? But just imagine five grams is typically known as a pretty decent dose.
00:39:34
Speaker
And so they have seen people with an alcohol addiction or a smoking addiction have a relatively high dose being motivated to stop that behavior. Like they go in with that intention and finding success.
00:39:48
Speaker
There's also a, if you're paying attention to what's happening over in Texas right now, there's a psychedelic iboga where we get ibogaine from. And ibogaine is used in places outside of the U.S. specifically for opioid addiction.
00:40:06
Speaker
I went on an iboga retreat and one woman had a 10-year opioid addiction because of a car accident. And one night, one night. she was off.
00:40:17
Speaker
So these Ibogaine clinics are really super impressive. And so that's one of the reasons why Texas right now has um dedicated a whole lot of money to researching the best way to use Ibogaine for addiction.
00:40:33
Speaker
Because Ibogaine is not recreational. You need to have a doctor. Like it's it's a it's a real medication. like Anybody with heart issues or liver issues can't do it. You have to be monitored.
00:40:44
Speaker
So I'm really excited considering the opioid epidemic in this country that we're finally giving more focus to that because honestly, with the opioid funds,
00:40:57
Speaker
if we had invested in this three, four years ago, the amount of opioid addiction in this country would be significantly less. So there's, if you go to clinicaltrials.gov, I think there's over 200 different clinical trials that happen, happening, kind of in process, whatever, and a good number of them are working on addiction.
00:41:17
Speaker
theoretically, you could say because MDMA heals trauma that underlies addiction that could work, but I don't know of any research about it. So I don't usually talk about it in that way.
00:41:29
Speaker
Gotcha. Yeah. That, I mean, i hadn't even heard of, is it ibogaine? I hadn't even heard of that, but but psilocybin and ibogaine. Ayahuasca is another that I've heard of and and and these different ah medicines that have helped people in similar situations. And I'm curious what your thoughts are, and this may be ah digging into a a vault of controversy or conspiracy, but what your thoughts are around like like in the 40s and 50s and 60s, there were doctors researching the the treatment, the the the healing benefits of these things.
Historical Context and Political Banning of Psychedelics
00:42:08
Speaker
But then they got they got put on banned substance list or illegal substance list. In the 60s and 70s. Yep. what what ah What are your thoughts around that and why it's been so delayed in getting to the point of, oh, we can use this as medicine to help people heal?
00:42:27
Speaker
Oh yeah, this is an Agile opinion. It's pretty much known. It was a Nixon political thing. there was we went There was a need to kind of, going to use the word crackdown, crackdown on alternative thinking. they needed ah One of the things that psychedelics do is let you get out of your default mode and question things.
00:42:49
Speaker
And that was not great at that period of time with a president very similar to our current president that did not want free thinking. So um it was, it just kind of followed the pattern at the time.
00:43:04
Speaker
And unfortunately, because these substances got put on a schedule one, it made it so difficult for universities to continue researching. If it would have been a schedule three, you know, researchers would have been able to keep going. I believe, I believe that's the correct schedule.
00:43:20
Speaker
But because it was schedule one, everything just kind of stopped and it was political. It wasn't like people were dying from this research or anything of that sort. I would also say that back then, i don't think there was a huge understanding of trauma. I think they looked at it just in the lens of, wait a minute, people don't want to go fight in wars now or people are demonstrating we need to crack down. to The sin of it is.
00:43:46
Speaker
i mean my mother on her deathbed said to me that she wasted her life. And the sin of it is, is that if this therapy had been around, if if it really was depression with her, I don't know, you know, would an LSD journey that is being studied now for depression or a ketamine journey or a series of ketamine journeys, would that have dramatically shifted her life?
00:44:11
Speaker
And we just don't know. Wow. We don't know, but the possibilities of of something being different, like they're there. And ah you, I mean, that is, that is, I feel similar, like like like I've done the research and understand the political aspect of it all. And yeah um it's a shame because people have had to suffer when there are you know, resources out here. And if if from that period to now, more research had been done, more money had been pumped into it, more schools were able to study and research,
00:44:48
Speaker
that that we we could be in a totally different place when we talk about trauma and and treatments for trauma. and And so my therapist, she is similar to yours, is getting trained in psychedelic assisted therapy. And so like to to trust someone, to have add had experience with someone, ah to sit in those in those ceremonies is something that I've i've i've considered Like I didn't, I didn't want to, i I never wanted to do it recreationally. I don't want to do it for fun. Like I don't want to play with something that is so sacred.
00:45:22
Speaker
Uh, but I do recognize that there are benefits to it, but, but there are also some, some things to look out for some some risks.
Risks and Precautions in Psychedelic Therapy
00:45:30
Speaker
Do you, can you speak to the risks that may arise for some people?
00:45:34
Speaker
So this is super important. Um, everybody kind of loops the word psychedelic into a whole bunch of medicines, MDMA. And some people even argue MDMA is not a psychedelic because you on, on the therapeutic dose, you really should not be getting any sort of visuals.
00:45:51
Speaker
You might get a little bit of like the, the root, like focusing issues, but again, it's a party drug. If it, if it totally capacitated in incapacitated you, it wouldn't work. um But every psychedelic,
00:46:05
Speaker
while most of them work on the 5-HTP receptor, some of them don't, and some of them are metabolized in the body differently. So for instance, anybody with any personality disorder right now, bipolar, schizophrenia, anything like that, the research does not support you working with psychedelics.
00:46:25
Speaker
You'll see anecdotal, oh, I was able to help this person with bipolar or da-da-da-da. There is no specific research yet. So I would absolutely, screen you out for that.
00:46:37
Speaker
MDMA specifically has a bit of methamphetamine in it. So if you have any sort of heart issue or you have high blood pressure or a problem regulating your temperature, it would be something to stay away from.
00:46:50
Speaker
um My family does not have a history of schizophrenia. I don't have a personality disorder. My health is just fine. So I qualified. If anybody out there is doing psychedelic assisted psychotherapy and you are not filling out an obnoxiously long health intake form, yeah it is a red flag because that shows that the person you're working with isn't honoring the potential issues that come with some of these medicines.
00:47:21
Speaker
That's so smart and so wise. It Because yes, like, and and that's with anything, right? Cause I think because they carry such a stigma, you hear one thing, oh, it's bad for my, this is bad for that. Then I absolutely won't do it. But every, every drug commercial we have on TV right now is full of the side effects and what could go wrong. And death is on a lot of them. And it's like, oh, wow.
00:47:44
Speaker
And so that that is just a part of, of chemicals interacting with your body and to do the research and to understand. how it will well treat, how it will be in your body. And so we're all different in that way.
00:47:57
Speaker
So that and is very helpful. Dosing is super important. You know, you might have somebody pop up and say, well, didn't you see the 15 year old at a rave who passed away and they took MDMA?
00:48:10
Speaker
Well, I'm probably, i would place bets. It was unfortunately not a therapeutic dose. There was probably dehydration involved and, you know, who knows what else in a, I am very, very clear that I am talking about in a,
00:48:26
Speaker
clinical ish, because he shouldn't do it in a hospital room, that'll be a little bit too clinical, but in a measured therapeutic way with screening and with professionals, we're not seeing any sort of danger signs that are out there recreationally.
00:48:43
Speaker
Yeah.
Breaking Stigma and Resources for Psychedelic Therapy
00:48:45
Speaker
How do we continue to break the stigma around psychedelics and their use in therapy? You know what? I mean, want to this you're doing it, sir, by allowing me to have this conversation with you and talking about this particular treatment as the medical treatment that it is.
00:49:05
Speaker
We're doing it right now. You're seeing a pretty decent uptick. I think the New York Times did a thing recently. CNN just ran a veterans retreat. i did a video on it.
00:49:17
Speaker
and Wired just did an article about people using AI and to help them with their journeys, which I would not suggest. So we're starting to see psychedelics pierce the kind of mainstream media.
00:49:32
Speaker
mainstream media There's a big, robust group, ah robust population over in LinkedIn, because this is estimated in the next five years to be a billion dollar industry.
00:49:44
Speaker
The first company that gets FDA approved, I mean, ketamine's been FDA approved, but the first company that gets psilocybin or LSD or MDMA approved is looking at making a whole lot of money.
00:49:59
Speaker
And so this is a, this is it a burgeoning field. And I think you're going to have a lot of people be like, what? And then they'll be like, what?
00:50:11
Speaker
Definitely. I agree. I agree. And i i mean like I recommend people just do your research. There's so much out there for you to consume and and understand both the pros and cons and weigh it out for yourself um if it's something that you're considering or you know somebody who is considering it um and it again, it's not for And just to be clear, it is illegal right now.
00:50:36
Speaker
Yeah. So you're considering this, Other than ketamine. Yeah. So met yeah. MDMA other, yeah. Ketamine is legal. And is it every state or most, is it? I'm pretty sure. I mean, I know it's, I think it's legal. ten ah I haven't, I have not heard of a state that hasn't allowed it.
00:50:54
Speaker
That doesn't, it's not out there. Yeah. So, but when you're thinking about the psilocybin, when you're thinking about the MDMAs, when you're thinking about the LSDs, like Those other things are not, um but there is there's delays in that. And so um just to to understand that as well.
00:51:12
Speaker
Oregon and Colorado, psilocybin is allowed. it's It's pricey because they're putting a lot of ah restrictions on it. Pro or con, never really know.
00:51:22
Speaker
But those other substances, if you are, i do not promote illegal activity. i do know that I talk about it though.
00:51:32
Speaker
that so That's real. That's real. That's real. Wow. um This is, this has been very an enlightening for me because I've, I've, I've done it. Where, where can people, excuse me, where can people find resources outside of the some of the ones that we've already mentioned, even conferences? Because I think I learned the most at at conferences when I'm sitting there and I'm hearing about the newest research or the newest you know laws that are being passed and things like that. Where can people go?
00:52:02
Speaker
Well, we just had psychedelic science in Denver, which is run by MAPS, the group that funded the MDMA work. They had significantly fewer Fewer participants.
00:52:17
Speaker
i went two years ago. I went this year. I probably will not go again. i found it too repetitive, but that's something in two years. ah Horizons in New York, I think they're yearly. If you want to nerd out on research, Horizons is the place to be. If you're a business person, Horizons is also a great place. Like if you're looking to invest, things of that sort.
00:52:36
Speaker
PsyCon is kind of a... um more of a The way I describe Saikon is more of your homegrown kind of psychedelic folks, almost like people like me that kind of got into it through a personal experience or you're a mushroom grower or you know you're in a business side. So Saikon runs ah usually two times a year.
00:52:59
Speaker
And then if you're in the California area, there's usually like these kind of little small conferences. um I think you're going to find more and more people once something gets approved.
00:53:14
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely yes that's, the race is going to start once something gets approved. Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you for that. That's, that's helpful. Um, and, uh, any other resources like books or, or you have a book, like, does your book speak about your journey and, and, and give some information there?
00:53:35
Speaker
So if you're just looking at MDMA therapy, maps.org is the place to go. That's where all the research is That was the group you might have heard. Well, Lycos is the one that submitted it to the FDA.
00:53:47
Speaker
There was a whole thing about a nonprofit versus a pharmaceutical. And if you really are interested in that, you can dive into that. But maps.org has that primary research and more research that they're delving into too.
00:54:00
Speaker
My content, thejourneysage.com or thejourneysage at YouTube is all about what is this therapy from a patient's perspective?
00:54:12
Speaker
Yes. Because you can have a researcher talk until they're blue in the face. But if you can't tell someone what to expect or the work they have to do, i think it's not really useful. And um I basically have been creating the content that I wish had been around when I was going through the therapy.
00:54:32
Speaker
There was like Reddit posts, like there was no content. I didn't have any, I had to just kind of go through it. And so that's really my motivation. My book, the memoir leads you through the year of three therapeutic journeys. It took three therapeutic journeys over the course of a year to no longer be suicidal, to not have the PTSD diagnosis.
00:54:53
Speaker
I still had a lot of trauma to heal, but I was no longer in that crisis. And so the memoir is showing almost, memory by memory, the shifts.
00:55:05
Speaker
So if people have a child abuse background or interested, they'll get the book. If they did not have a child abuse background, they'll be like, why does she talk about her dad so much? Um,
00:55:16
Speaker
I have a workbook out there. So if you are thinking about psychedelic assisted psychotherapy, I wrote a quick little workbook of the eight different ways my therapist and I kind of developed intentions and thought about things because I've been on a lot of retreats and there's people who have no idea what even an intention is or how to even get started. So I wrote that for folks.
00:55:39
Speaker
I'm getting started on my third book, which is kind of exciting. Nice. That is exciting. Yeah. um The YouTube channel goes through a lot about MDMA, a lot about the process, prep, the day integration.
00:55:51
Speaker
I have used other medicines to understand how they work with trauma. So you're starting to see some of that content coming in. um And my website, I've got a a ton of resources out on the website people can access.
00:56:04
Speaker
Yeah. You said something that I think i want to point out because I found myself in this same predicament. of searching for the answers or searching for the guide or the go-to.
00:56:16
Speaker
And, you know, when you start to have these higher level thoughts, you don't find it. And it's like, oh, that's the signal from the world, the universe, God, whoever to create it yourself.
00:56:29
Speaker
And so when the content wasn't there, but you're asking these questions, somebody else is asking it. it's it's It's being searched. Like that is your sign to create it and and and add to the world with with your knowledge, with your resources, with your insights to to create something that helps educate the world. so here here's what i Here's what I'm afraid of However this rolls out eventually, it's it's rolling out in Canada in a way that it's very clinical.
00:56:58
Speaker
And so you have people going to a clinic, having like one or two hours of a journey, but I'm sorry, like one prep session, the journey, and then literally they're like shunted to a hotel because they're in another place They can't call anybody if they're in crisis because the clinic has closed.
00:57:19
Speaker
um It's a very, it's not a very warm model. Number one. Number two, i was always afraid and I still am afraid of the marketing. 10 years of therapy in eight hours. It's that easy. yeah And I really wanted to make it super clear to people that while it's way faster than just talk therapy, it's a bumpy ride.
Expectations and Realities of Psychedelic Therapy
00:57:42
Speaker
It's hard. You have to put the work in.
00:57:44
Speaker
um I don't want people to get fleeced out of a lot of money by marketing claims when my channel is like, hey, look, this is the work you got to do Don't spend the money if you're not willing to do the work.
00:57:56
Speaker
Yeah. You give people the real and and that's that's important because it is work. It's not it's not the the quick fix pill. It is still work. it is It is hard work. It is it is going through. You're uncovering things. You're unlocking boxes that have been closed.
00:58:15
Speaker
I joked about the memory loss thing, but there may be memories that have been suppressed and repressed that may expose themselves to you. And so that could be scary. And so there is real work when, when you're, when you're healing. And so to recognize that and to be aware of that as you go through it. yeah And I'm not sure how much of that's going to be in the marketing.
00:58:37
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. Well, I appreciate you for, for continuing to educate and share the message to destigmatize it, to help more people heal. Before we, before we get out of here, I got a segment and it's, it's a rapid response. It's a fill in the blank.
00:58:52
Speaker
Okay. So you just let me know again, vulnerability makes me feel blank.
Thoughts on Vulnerability and Therapy Myths
00:58:59
Speaker
Comfortable.
00:59:02
Speaker
A key myth about MDMA assisted therapy is blank. ah that you're just you're just in you're just doing a recreational jug drug trip.
00:59:17
Speaker
Yeah. If I could tell my younger self one thing, I would say Jill blank. Everything's going to be okay.
00:59:29
Speaker
Healing means blank.
00:59:32
Speaker
Healing means going towards the tough stuff. that sometimes doesn't want to be healed, but feels so much better on the other side. ah like that. I'm gonna clip that, because that's vulnerability muscle right there in ah in a sentence.
00:59:49
Speaker
There you go. And lastly, i am living for blank.
00:59:55
Speaker
Ooh.
00:59:59
Speaker
PTSD healing has allowed me to say, I'm living for me.
01:00:05
Speaker
That's so powerful. Jill, thank you so much for this time, for sharing your story. ah the The heartbreaking parts, the hopeful parts, the healing parts, all of it is so beautiful. And I really appreciate you and everything that you do. So thank you and continue to inspire.
01:00:24
Speaker
Are there any final words, any last message you want to get off your chest to to share with the audience? My last message? What I always say to people, because people kind of hear this and they're like, hey, I want to learn more and maybe I want to try this, but I don't like to do illegal stuff.
01:00:41
Speaker
Take the time to do some research and start doing some Internet research about clinical trials. Go on LinkedIn of all places. There are a lot of. independent companies that are running trials on things, you just have to search them out because usually they just post them on their website.
01:00:59
Speaker
So there are legal ways. And I will also say if you're open to traveling outside of the US, there are other ah legal ways to also do this work. You know, you're not just restricted to the US and you're not just restricted to underground if that's uncomfortable.
01:01:15
Speaker
It just requires a little bit of work on your end. Definitely. Definitely. Are there any things that people could do to help with the FDA process? I'm just asking out of curiosity.
01:01:26
Speaker
I'm not at this point. We, ah you know, I'm not a big fan of our current administration and I'm going to say, and yet there might be a possibility that some of this psychedelic research will move a little faster through the FDA.
01:01:42
Speaker
um I hope that it is done with intention and it is not rolled out in an, in a unsafe manner because I would hate there to be kind of the rubber band back.
01:01:58
Speaker
What's that word? Um, I would hate for it. Yeah. I would hate for it to be rolled poorly and quickly. And then the slingshot of, oh, well that doesn't work. And then we're, we're,
01:02:08
Speaker
behind three decades again. So I think it'll be really interesting what happens. um I'm hoping there are some adults and competent people in the room. I'm just not sure.
01:02:20
Speaker
Definitely. Definitely. Jill, can you shout out the website? Again, rescuing Jill is her memoir and workbook. Oh, yeah. Journey Sage.
01:02:30
Speaker
I'm the journey sage. I like to educate about the journey. Yes, I love that. So I'll post that in the show notes. But Thank you so much for your time. With all the things that you could be doing, all the places you could be, i appreciate you being here with me embracing vulnerability.
01:02:45
Speaker
I would say the same thing to you, sir. Thank you very much. Thank you for joining us in another episode of Vulnerability Muscle. If you've enjoyed these conversations around vulnerability, please consider leaving a review.
01:02:57
Speaker
Your feedback not only motivates us to continue to do the work that we do, but it allows other people to witness the power of vulnerability. Share your thoughts. on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Spotify Podcasts, or wherever you're listening from.
01:03:13
Speaker
And don't forget to spread the word. You can follow us at vulnerabilitymuscle on Instagram and me personally at Reggie D. Ford across all platforms. Visit vulnerabilitymuscle.com for additional resources and support.
01:03:26
Speaker
And remember, embracing vulnerability is not a sign of weakness. It is the source of your greatest strength. Sometimes it's uncomfortable, but most workouts are. So keep flexing that vulnerability.