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The Empty Man (2020*) with Rachel (@rach_is_talking)
43 Plays9 days ago
"If you stare into The Juice, it also stares back into you"
Doug and Tony sit down with Empty Man and Tulpa expert Rachel to discuss the cult (get it) horror film by David Prior. Is Lovecraftian an overused term? Should James Badge Dale be in more movies where he doesn't play Military Man #3? All these questions and more answered!
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Transcript
00:00:17
Speaker
All
Introduction to 'These Guys Got Juice' Podcast and Guests
00:00:18
Speaker
right. Welcome to These Guys Got Juice. i'm I'm Doug and Tony's here. And also today we're here with Rach or Rachel. the Which do you prefer again? It doesn't matter. I'm really fine with either. Okay. well Well, we're yeah, we're here with Empty Man Connoisseur, Rach.
00:00:39
Speaker
ah And we're yeah, we're talking the...
Context and Release of 'The Empty Man'
00:00:43
Speaker
2020 official release date, but this was definitely filmed way before that David Pryor joint, The Empty Man. ah This one flew under the radar for most people, for me included, until i don't even remember how I heard about it. like i've I've watched like special features on David Fincher things, and maybe I've seen like David Pryor's name in the credits of stuff, because he like works with Fincher, but
00:01:12
Speaker
I didn't know he was like a filmmaker in his own right. I feel like it just came on my radar when I'm just sometimes just looking for like, ah I want some cult horror, Lovecraftian horror.
Discovering 'The Empty Man' - Personal Experiences
00:01:22
Speaker
What's like, what's out, what's new and in that realm? And maybe this came across like my Google search that way. But ah Yeah, I was I was kind of blown away by this. And i I'm just trying to to grow the the empty man cult because I feel like there's not enough people know about this this special little movie. But maybe you could talk a little bit, ah Rachel, like why why this movie resonates with with you? Like because I've seen you post about it, ah you know, multiple times and it it it just it just gets under your it gets into your brain, right? It's like an itch.
00:01:56
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. I think I found this movie. My husband saw someone post about it. So that's how we found it. He was like, they said it's underrated and it's going off whatever streaming site it was on soon. So why don't we just watch it?
00:02:12
Speaker
um And that's like all I knew about it. I didn't know anything about it. um I really love horror in general and I like how meta it can be. And I think this one is just meta in a very special way. Yeah, like for sure. Just totally a different angle from anything else that I found really exciting. And every time I watch it, I seem to get more from it. And yeah, no, I can't stop posting about it whenever I watch it for some reason. I just think of more random shit about it.
00:02:41
Speaker
just Yeah, it claws into to your brain. Like, this movie stuck with me, and this was kind of like my intro to the drug that is James Badgedale. Like, now I'm, like, fully a James Badged head. I mean, not to the extent, like, I know he was in stuff. Like, I'm aware of the Pacific. I just didn't, I don't care about war movies. So that if you tell me there's, like, a miniseries, it's like, hey, it's like Saving Private Ryan, but it's like,
00:03:08
Speaker
10 hours. I'm like, pass. I don't want to watch that. But
Unique Elements of 'The Empty Man'
00:03:13
Speaker
um yeah, he's been in a few things. I've even gone back and watched a little bit of his short-lived AMC show, Rubicon. ah pretty Pretty good. But this this definitely is a great showcase for him. ah to Tony, when did you become an acolyte of the MTV?
00:03:30
Speaker
Well, like, i I am one of those weirdos that always likes to see what new horror movies are out. And i kind of heard that there was some kind of hubbub around this one where there was like...
00:03:43
Speaker
you know, the whole delayed release. And then there was it could come out, but it was in the middle of COVID. And then when it was coming to streaming, there was this explosion of people who are really getting into it. So I remember like maybe a couple of days after it hit streaming, I was like, yeah, you know I'm going to I'm going check this out.
00:04:01
Speaker
And just similar to what you guys have been saying, it's it really floored me. It's it's something that I In its construction, it can only really be one thing, but it executes that one thing so well that it becomes an exemplary model of what this can be. We'll get into that when we get into spoilers. ah But I just think that ah there's a unique...
00:04:26
Speaker
unease to it, um an off-kilter comedic edge, and then ah even just like the way that it's photographed. Obviously, ah you had brought up the behind-the-scenes, Doug, with David Fincher. David Fincher's fingerprints are all over this movie, but it doesn't feel derivative. It actually feels like it's taking what David Fincher is known for and adapting it to a new ah genre ah far more successfully than other filmmakers who try to do the same thing. I'm looking at you, Chris Stuckman, with Shelby Oaks.
00:04:56
Speaker
ah yeah Yeah, this doesn't this doesn't feel like the subgenre of movies where it's like, I like Zodiac and I want to make Zodiac like and even for movies that I really like, like the Batman, like that, like I feel like this Empty Man even more distinguishes itself of like, yeah, you can see the venture in it, but it's not it. it Yeah, it's its own thing. It's its own beast.
00:05:18
Speaker
Well, I think it's multiple styles, too. like between the kind of two sections of the movie i feel like he sort of shows off like i can make a really polished like what i would consider prestige horror that's how i view the first section um and then i'm not going to do that and i think it's it changes and i think seeing the two styles is also really impressive in that Pryor has his own vision on how the story needs to be told. And big the story has to shift gears in order to sell what it's trying to, like, present to the audience. Because obviously there are things that are shrouded and kept secret from us. But then also upon rewatches, they need to make sense.
00:06:03
Speaker
And there's also this layer of, like...
Deeper Analysis and Hidden Layers
00:06:06
Speaker
um There's like a history to all of the decisions that are happening. And even when you're experiencing them for the first moment, like you can actually feel the weight of these things. And it's kind of surprising how once you get to the end, it all does feel like it paid off in such a successful manner.
00:06:22
Speaker
Yeah, I agree with all that. I just want to touch on, ah you know, what what the movie ah means to to all of us for getting the spoiler because like we really just have to to break into that to really have a discussion on. So if you're listening and you haven't seen it, go see it.
Distribution and Availability of the Film
00:06:39
Speaker
It's on it's on Hulu currently. So you can stream it. Yeah.
00:06:42
Speaker
yeah Because it is like technically ah that that's like part of the the weird release limbo was in. It was like right when Disney was taking over all the Fox stuff. So it is in that library of like Fox stuff that's on Tulu. So it ah I mean, it would be nice if we could also get like ah a physical release like Criterion, you know, come on.
00:07:03
Speaker
This an empty man win. i want some special features for this thing. I want director's commentary. I want James Badgedale commentary. I want commentary from the empty man itself.
00:07:14
Speaker
Like, come on. Yeah. Like, really close to the microphone whispering for the entire runtime of the movie. That's what you want. the Yeah, and if you listen to it, they find you dead. Like, you're just, like, you know, hanging from from a bridge or something.
00:07:31
Speaker
With like you and four of your friends. Yeah. Right. Yeah. You can't do that alone. That's what takes friends. So... Okay, so, yeah, officially, we're we're in spoiler territory for The Empty Man. i think the biggest surprise of this movie, just going in vaguely knowing nothing about it i was like, oh, there's like a whole like short film that opens this this thing that kind of is our segue into this this concept.
Opening Scene and Lovecraftian Horror
00:07:55
Speaker
I've seen some people say that that's the best part, and then the rest of the movie, like, oh it doesn't live up to like the what what this intro... bill Those people are wrong and stupid, but... uh this is great like this is like its own story but it also is very much in like ah on rewatch I always notice like the things that are repeated because this is kind of like the beginning of a ritual I mean yes all the stuff predates even when we see this this is like 9 93 95 85 Yeah, 95, when they come across this, this is obviously, like, ancient, ancient. And I i i just want to say, like, I feel like i like a lot of Lovecraftian horror, but some of it feels very lazy to the extent it's like it kind of boils down the concept to, like, it's just a weird thing from space or something. Or, like, oh, wouldn't it be crazy if something had tentacles? And, yes, there is...
00:08:53
Speaker
like elements of that in this, but not really. That's not like the forward thing they're doing with it Like this truly feels of somewhere else like that they like we've stumbled upon something that's like beyond reality itself i started i recently had rewatched of uh uh in the mouse of madness the carpenter film and i feel like this has a lot of thematic overlap and also that's just a very successful like lovecraft homage to that uh i feel like gets at that that feeling of like that this is not just beyond human comprehension that it's just it's just beyond
00:09:31
Speaker
It's this like ah the horror of the unknown and it's the intangible and how it exists within this ethereal space that's not quite spirit, not quite reality, and how ah actions within the real world are able to kick that into high gear and make it an actual threat. And kind of going off what you were saying about like Lovecraft influences, like I'm not a big Lovecraft guy. I feel like there's like a really loud outspoken like fandom, I guess you can say people are like,
00:10:00
Speaker
I'm just a fan of the racism, not the stories. i That's what I read it for. this so Just brushing up on the tones.
00:10:08
Speaker
But but but ah like for me, I just like it when there's like individual tales that can get that um that intangible quality, you know, like that when you can feel like the horror is something that you just can't quite put your finger on.
00:10:22
Speaker
With this opening, just to kind of go in a completely alternate direction, I love that it just exists as its own thing, a as a short film. But then B, ah it reminds me so much of the opening of Indiana Jones, the first one.
00:10:35
Speaker
It's like the the way that you actually open on the mountain, and it's this, like, traversal into this, like... foreign landscape for these people it's only for them to go deeper and deeper and get trapped and then of course there's a horror twist to it and it's prolonged from much further than your indiana jones movie it's not a one-to-one obviously but i do think that the idea of these people's hubris being tied into what ends up playing out through the rest of the film is interesting to touch on
Character Choices and Cultural Elements
00:11:03
Speaker
I was going to say, I think this is one where hubris is less present. I think it's harder to be yelling like, no, don't do that during this opening section than in most movies like this. Because it's like your friend falls down. He's like, don't touch me. And you're not like, yeah, man, just leave him.
00:11:21
Speaker
Yeah. Like, what do you do? There's literally like he won't move. So, i yeah, I was thinking about that on Rewash. I'm like, I'm going to leave you then. i don't know.
00:11:32
Speaker
Like at every turn, I'm like, I guess I would do it. She's like, we have to go get help. And they're like, it's snow. Like, we can't do that. It's snow. right There's nowhere to go. that We just have to stay here. Like, I think a lot of the choices make sense um in an impressive way where it's less like in the second half, you definitely do have more like, come on, man. Like, what are you doing out here? Like, you're curious, but you have to give up. And there's way less of that in the first part.
00:11:58
Speaker
I feel like because it's so contained that it does have... It it kind of feels watertight in that sense of like, yeah, you can't really poke holes in it. And i I feel like this does even carry through to the main section too, where even in the face of all this like...
00:12:15
Speaker
unknowable or like whatever, like terror that they're facing, they still feel very, the reactions are very human. I mean, yes, there's more to James Badge-Jales character, but his reactions are very much like, like normal guy reacting to the inexplicable. And I, we do get good moments of that, even in this opening, like, like when you find that crazy skeleton with it's like hands folded, ah and there's a lot a lot of hands, like,
00:12:44
Speaker
folding imagery uh yeah we'll still go back around to that but uh that he's just like what ah you like just the way that he's like what the fuck are you i'm not that just that just felt real but sorry tony you were saying oh i just wanted to be saying i wanted to be more precise in sense that i don't think that the characters are you know have a lot of hubris from a moment to moment situation i just meant you don't find yourself in this snowy forest yeah like a trail that situation where you're going to end up falling into a pit unless there is some kind of hubris involved to get to that point.
00:13:17
Speaker
When it comes to how ah these dynamics play it through the rest of the film, though, um I do think that there is in-universe... um like explanation as to how and why characters behave the way that they do so that already affords a lot of goodwill for audience members especially us who are really vibing with this movie uh to be able to give it the benefit of the debt when it then does to bend a bit because you know there are parts that are kind of goofy and silly but that's okay because it actually does have an in-universe reason for existing
00:13:50
Speaker
Yeah, I agree with what what you're saying, that the characters themselves aren't hubristic, but the scenario, like, I think about that whenever I just hear people about, like, that scale Everest or, and write you know, do shit like that, where I'm like, I cannot imagine myself even going for for that. Like, I can maybe be talked into, like, skydiving. That's as extreme as I'll get, but...
00:14:11
Speaker
Like something like that seems crazy. And I feel like there's almost kind of like an unspoken. brought the Indiana Jones comparison, like a cultural hubris like they're in Bhutan here. And like we, you know, we're going to we're told is going be brought up a lot. We were.
00:14:27
Speaker
could break new records from me how much people say tulpa on on this on this podcast but like that's a like a concept from you know older culture like this is like something that like this cult is now taken this mostly at least from what we're seeing the chapters and you know like the present day storyline looks looks pretty white the pontifex institute that you know oh that they're they're They're taking and running with this thing that and and they're their bridge between all this is also a a white ah white man. yeah i don' I don't know there's like intentional, like like a huge commentary being said there, but i just thought it was interesting because they do make the the, there's a moment of like they see the truck of monks like past them. and It's like, this is the this is not your world that you're going into.
00:15:13
Speaker
Definitely. I think it's all white on purpose, I want to say, just because it they're in St. Louis. um And I remember my husband went to college in St. Louis and he was like, it's crazy how much they made South Africa, whatever if this was shot in South Africa, look like so it looks like St. Louis. It looks like Missouri. And St. Louis is not like a majority white place. If you find yourself in like a majority white area in St. Louis, it's specific to, you know.
00:15:38
Speaker
what university you're in or like that space is unique and everyone there is white and that's unusual um for sure i mean i grew up in san francisco so but i know what you're talking about i think that's part of it too actually if he's like i've bet like you know that the character the other reasons though is also like listen i'm not from like rural indiana like i've heard of stuff i know other types of people who would not believe this like what are you talking about Right. I just love that he was spamming that line, just like whatever he just didn't know to say or do. He was just like, I'm from Chicago. big Because at first it's like, yeah, you're saying it's a shorthand for like, OK, I'm more culturally aware than you might think, you know, like to like some kind of. scenario. Like, yeah, whatever. I'm from San Francisco. I've been around hippies and stuff. But then he just starts just inside. he's It's like an NPC, like in a Skyrim or something. Like, i took an arrow once I was adventure like you, and then I took an arrow to a knee. So he just goes around saying, I grew up in San Francisco.
00:16:41
Speaker
Right, which I think is perfect. Like an example of what you were saying. It's all explainable in character. Like, he's just like, oh, for some reason, this rings a bell. But um they only programmed him. then he just yeah Yeah, they only they only gave him so many lines when they programmed them He only knows the phrase San Francisco. There's no memory of San Francisco. He can't tell you a story about San Francisco. It only exists as a detail that, you know, you can describe about him.
00:17:08
Speaker
Yeah, I was thinking about that on Rewatch because there's so much of like... Like, we're already in spoilers, so we're going jump around. But, like, obviously, like, all James' past and history is is invented. This is, like, when they made this this tulpa, they needed an empty man. So so they they made him. I was like, okay, so, yeah, you can invent memories and invent a past. But it's like, there's so many scenes with him, with people that interact with that past in the present that aren't really memories. So it it it really blurs the line of, like, oh, so our is that, like...
00:17:42
Speaker
those scenes are being beamed into his brain in that moment or is also he just interacting like with with like a fake uh you may uh is her name is there a name pronounced ireland i know it's how it's spelled like an actress yeah okay i think it's ireland yeah Yeah. So like is is because he interacts with her a bunch, but then later at the end, she does not know who he is, which makes sense if this has all been fabricated. But then it's like, oh, who was that earlier than like, is that purely all in his head or were there like was was something physically happening in those scenes that they made happen?
00:18:20
Speaker
Yeah, I think part of the charm of the movie for me is that it's not watertight. And I think the movie is sort of like, yeah, it's a movie. So, oh yeah you know, you you don't write think about it that hard. like that's And not in a bad way. Like, I do think about it every single time I watch it. I'm like, how much of this was real? When she picks up the phone and she hears the whispering, is she being, like, programmed?
00:18:42
Speaker
does she ah Does she ever talk to him? Does she ever come to it? Does he have a house? Yeah. Because she seems like she is a real person, that there is someone that he calls at the end who doesn't recognize. Right. Right.
00:18:56
Speaker
Right. Yeah. Yeah. So it is it is a rabbit. Like you said, like it doesn't need to all be watertight, but it is interesting to like go down that rabbit hole. there's like two things that i have to say about that and there's one i'll say without going too deep into spoilers which is that like given that it's like a kind of like spiritual
Digital Effects and Narrative Commentary
00:19:16
Speaker
demon-y thing but also it was conjured by like a group of young kids in a cult right i think that that is a big element of that factor and There was one thing I wanted to get back to with the opening, though. This is kind of separate from like the meaning of the story, but this is ah a repeated thing that I've noticed upon rewatch with this movie, was that the there's a lot of digital effects in this movie.
00:19:38
Speaker
And this is probably the closest it gets to David Fincher's style, I would say, because there are things in this that maybe you wouldn't conventionally do with digital effects, especially at this budget level. But because of how they capture it it just works really well. And speaking specifically to like this opening sequence in the snow, ah the fact that you get that shot of one of them falling off of the cliff and you actually watch them fall and actually looks pretty decent. Like, I'm surprised that the effects work so well throughout the whole film.
00:20:10
Speaker
That part looks decent. There are times where you just see the backdrop of the mountains where it looks like clearly composite, but I'm also okay with that. i mean, one, I'm you know understanding of the budget level of something I'm watching, especially horror. I can be forgiving, but I'm like, this is all, this whole story is about like artifice and what's real and what's not. So, I mean, yes, this is a real event that happened that kickstarted this chain of events, but also...
00:20:39
Speaker
who is, what version of that are we even watching? You know, like that we're being, we're being shown a story, a tale. This is like a creation myth. Like this is almost like, like maybe something that's been repeated amongst the, you know, Pontifex, you know, the people that this is, that this was like their inciting incident. I mean, like, yes, there's things that predate that, that they probably have like,
00:21:01
Speaker
like other like myths but that's like like like actual fables and mythology like it repeat it gets repeated and repeated things change there's certain things that like become different or things are just invented as it it's you know it's like a game of telephone i mean it's it's very much that uh uh like that scene where it's like well oh if you say your name enough times it just kind of becomes gibberish and i i feel like the movie as a whole works on that level That and the ah tape. I love the meditation tape that plays when he's walking through like the barracks, which doesn't make a ton of sense to me. Like the barracks itself doesn't, but it does, but it doesn't. um That's being like, you can never know something. And even if you know it, you can't understand it. and Even if you can understand it, you can't explain it. And even if you could explain it, they won't understand it
00:21:52
Speaker
It sounds like Amanda's voice on that tape, too, like the girl that he's he's looking for initially. like i i feel like on rewatch, I'm like, man, they really like conjured him to be dense because she she she's given away a lot in in that like first conversation with him, all the weird shit she's saying that that he doesn't. She's doing it. She's like right like a Frankenstein thing, I guess. yeah Like fully. And so much of his, like you mentioned, it's like it's a bunch of young kids that are like she's like, i scripted you. I think about every time we like eventually see the flashback sequence.
00:22:30
Speaker
of her mom and him, it's like a ridiculous sequence. It's like day of the funeral. She has like full lingerie set on and you're like, what? But it's like she's 16. So she's just imagining like essentially, i don't know, a porn plot or something from a movie.
00:22:49
Speaker
And so it that's why it's like that. Like I i think it it ends up being that way. Like everything is that dramatized. But yeah, it's like, I think that was the final like implantation of his, like she was checking to be like, right. Yeah.
00:23:06
Speaker
Because if he had more of a reaction to anything that she said, then everything that needed to happen might not go as planned. So it almost is kind of like, you're just checking like, okay, this, this worry, like a stress test situation almost.
00:23:21
Speaker
When they failed a couple of times before. Right. Yeah, but we like those attempts. Yeah. Yeah, they're hinted and they sound interesting. Like, like, did they all look like James Badgedale? They're just like fucked up, you know, and like didn't survive. You kind of like, you know, ah was that RoboCop 2 where you see all the failed RoboCops? They're like, kill me!
00:23:41
Speaker
Or the failed Ripley clones and Resurrection. Maybe it's like Fire Walk With Me. You've got like a Chris Isaac and Kiefer Sutherland version out there. Yeah. That part does always get to me because I think a lot of... but My big thing I always end up focusing on is how much I feel like it's a movie about writing characters that work for your audience and how how to get them to stick. And I think it's a very like funny, satirical comment to be like, well, you're going to have to kill his wife.
00:24:08
Speaker
um He needs to pain. He he needs like big trauma, capital T trauma. you know like This is yeah like like like you ah kind of referenced before that this is almost...
00:24:20
Speaker
not like a parody of, of elevated horror, but it is like commenting on those tropes of, of like, yeah, I mean, you know, it, it, I roll my eyes sometimes when people act like that, that like started with elevated horror, but definitely became a thing like that. That was like trying people trying to work that into like all their, like, you know, Chris quote, prestige horror movies. So like the, the, the, this is fact, like, no, if someone did script this for Like you said, and was a teenager just makes it funny.
00:24:50
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, a across genre, if you're going to have like a single adult man, he's probably a widow. Like if it's like a Nolan movie, you've got like a 50-50 shot. That guy's a widow. Like you have to explain why he's single or or it' something else. Like it's there's almost always like a dead dead wife somewhere, like an ex-wife or something. So I think it's like it's in everything.
00:25:12
Speaker
The one thing I wanted to comment upon when it came to this, like, comment on the elevated horror sphere, I think it's interesting that this movie was shot, like, in 2016, 2017. And I feel as though, like, the whole elevated horror movement started around, like, 2014 to, like, 2017 is when it, like, really hit off. I'd say, like, Hereditary was when it, like, really peaked. And this movie would have been shooting around the same time that that movie was made Right. so i think that there is something to that in terms of how neat and tidy it is but then i also think that it's very similar to hereditary
00:25:48
Speaker
where a lot of the lore and the world building is a major part of the scare factor though i think that ah hereditary is far more nihilistic and even sometimes is like kind of laughing at the audience Whereas The Empty Man just feels like a well-oiled machine. It all needs to serve as these pieces that fit together. And we're essentially, as as we've already alluded to this is like the most successful run for The Empty Man. And this is the thing that we are experiencing. And by the time that we hit that ending, even though like we already know what it kind of means and what it represents, it does leave enough of an air to where like you're left to dream, you're left to wonder a bit like all the best movies do.
00:26:29
Speaker
Right. It doesn't it's tidy in the sense of we know what the deal is with James and why we saw things take place in that way. But there's so many like many questions involved, like to the extent of like, how did Amanda even get involved in the Pond Effect? Like, how did these kids like find Pond Effects? Like, who is actually leading? Like the main the oldest person we see there is like Stephen Stephen Root, I love the Stephen Root scene, but he never felt like leadership. Like, it almost is like it's like so like a hired speaker that they, you know, like some organization gets for events. But then as he probes him more, it almost seems like, no.
00:27:10
Speaker
Zero's not just doing it as a gig. like He's talking like he actually believes this. like that that This is like... He's fully... like When he's talking about nothingness and like ah you know like breaking down these concepts... oh Speaking of breaking down concepts, I did i did want to reference... like the ah you'd read You said like Ari Aster's kind of like laughing at the audience in Hereditary. I would agree with that. like i I don't...
00:27:34
Speaker
I don't think David Pryor is laughing at at anyone in Empty Man, but I think he is like that. We've referenced there is humor in this movie and some of it's like very slight, like the high school they go to is named after Jacques Derrida, or if I'm saying that right, it's like a French philosopher who's like he developed the philosophy of deconstruction. And I've seen people like point to that of like, oh, this is like let such lazy writing. It's on the like what high school would be named. I was like, I think he knows that's not like a normal high school name. Like that it's like a joke.
00:28:08
Speaker
No, it is. i was reading an interview because I was trying to figure out how my friend went to a Q&A with him. He got to see it like re-release or like play in theaters and went to a Q&A. So he was telling me that he was like, yeah, part of this is that like the source material is loosely based on which is a graphic novel, is a lot about what it means to make a graphic novel.
00:28:30
Speaker
And so he's like, so this one, I mean, he changes the medium, so it it becomes a completely different thing. But it's about making a movie. So I was like trying to find him saying that anywhere else. And I found him saying like, oh, yeah, Jacques Derrida, high school. Like, it was just we knew we had to name the high school something.
00:28:46
Speaker
And a it was just bad. We should tell people what kind of movie they're watching, which I think is just a he's like, it's not. Yeah, don't take it. Don't worry about it. It's a movie. Yeah, I love that. And that's actually maybe the most interested I've been in checking out the graphic novel, because originally I heard them like, oh, they're so different that maybe the stuff that I like in this movie is not even present. But knowing that it's kind of engaging on that metatextual level about like storytelling, but just through its own medium,
00:29:15
Speaker
That makes me more because then it kind of doesn't matter what similarities there are in the actual story because it's doing its own thing because like graphic novels and movies are different mediums. I mean, ah some nerds don't admit that when they want the thing to be literally translated for their their comic book movies, but they are different mediums. Yeah.
00:29:34
Speaker
but Yeah, like I don't know how close it is. i haven't read that novel either, but like it does kind of have that graphic novel sheen to it. It's hard to describe, but sometimes you just get the smell from it. But this is like one of those ones that's just so perfectly executed. And obviously adaptation means something completely different than just reading the original text text text. And I don't feel as though I need to like go and read the book to get more context to understand this better. This just feels like a complete thing that I'm like, yep, I understand everything. You could ding the movie a bit in terms of just like it is a little tidy in terms of everything. Like the ending leaves a bit to be, you know, interpreted. But then i would also say you just like the mechanics of it. Once you do have them down, it makes sense. But that's just like a slight nitpick. Which does feel intentional, like like we keep saying that like this is all a construct that we're seeing, so they have built that tidiness into it, which you know you could say is like maybe a bit of a cheat, but it's like, I'll allow it. It's within the confines of like what we're doing here. all tracks.
00:30:40
Speaker
that all tracks Right. It's a cheat, but I think it's horror and I think smart cheats are allowed. think Yes. It's very much ah okay for you to work your way out of a problem just through like a clever plot device. And I think it's really hard to sell this one where it could just be that like nothing happened. That's always the worst part of the conversation when I finish this movie. Is it like, did anything happen at all? Did you ever leave?
00:31:09
Speaker
the Pontifex Institute ever. And then we're like, no, yeah, we did. If only because it's more fun to assume we did. Right. I mean, it does leave that open, but that's a I, yeah, I feel like this avoids the, cause I, I do understand to a degree people who get frustrated with reveals of like, oh, this wasn't someone's header. That's a dream. Cause they're then like, well, what was I really watching? But I'm also of the like, well, this is a movie. It's never, you know, like someone's like, oh, if someone was all a dream, what was the point? I'm like, movies are dreams. So.
00:31:40
Speaker
You know, like, this is already not happening. You're you're ah opposed to like, an extra level of, like, artifice or something. But ah this is being playful with that. So, i ah like like you said, like i I feel like that that that's a clever cheat. So, i'll I'll allow it. I also don't think it's doing that. Like, I think it's too invested in Also being about like being summoned a... Like he... Talk To Me does this a bit where it's like, what would it feel like to be summoned as the thing being summoned? don't It says it a lot more. I think like, especially when he's out in the woods.
00:32:22
Speaker
Oh, absolutely. Yeah, mean, that is like he's been summoned. I mean, there's part earlier, too, because like he's been summoned there. And for him, he's just like bumbling through the forest. Like, what's going on over there? And it's like that is the equivalent to like trying to have a seance, like bring something closer to you.
00:32:40
Speaker
Right. Which I think is really interesting and can't exist if we're only in the Pontifex Institute. No, I think he's really going about and doing these things because it's not only like playing with these ideas and tropes of like horror or you know, whatever elevated horror is out around the time. This is also partly like ah a noir, you know, like it's playing in those tropes. Like he's like a a former cop who's looking for a missing girl. So like, you know, we've we've talked about. the you know,
Noir Elements and Sound Design
00:33:10
Speaker
the Fincher connection. And like this, that sounds like that could just on its own without the supernatural elements be some kind of setup for some kind of Fincher ask, or at least a Fincher riff kind kind of movie where it's like, yeah, this guy, this detective has to go look, look for, for, for this missing girl and find some seedy underworld or or something. But this is literally like in a lot of those detective movies, they're falling very flimsy leads and like going to places where it's like, Yeah, they're if you follow it from a plot to plot moment, it's like, does it even really make sense why they're going here to here? This feels really, really thin. and But here, like you said, he's literally being summoned. There's a group in the woods summoning him. There's those people in the Pontifex summoning him. And he's being summoned from like multiple points in time, as we see later. like So like that that all of that.
00:34:00
Speaker
I think is just like a very cool way to like play with all these, these different ideas that we, we see in, in movies like this, but while still doing its own thing.
00:34:11
Speaker
I just think it's really well edited as well, the way that you're able to drift from these things. And it this is what I was saying before about adapting David Fincher's style rather than like just being a copy of it, because it feels very lived in. It feels very efficient, and it doesn't feel very dreamlike at all. like i I always think about that one shot when you have the...
00:34:36
Speaker
yeah' they're on the bridge early on and it's the one person who survived and she's recounting the evening with her friends and ah you've got her looking up at the moon and she's closing both of her eyes and you're just getting those like rapid between both eyes. It doesn't really make a big show of it, but the movie is actually very perspective driven. And even though it's very commercial and clean in how it's colored and how it's framed, it actually is very internalized. It's very dreamlike in the way that it's actually being delivered. So I just think that it all aids in how that's delivered. Yeah, this is a very like in a complimentary way. You can tell this is ah made by someone who's an editor because like he does, like we said, he does those behind the scenes things for Fincher.
00:35:20
Speaker
ah releases, but he's also like an editor in his own own right. And I think he also edited the movie Empty Man himself, if I'm not mistaken, ah which i always like seeing like, do I mean, not to expect every director to edit their own stuff that'd be crazy but like when ones that do are their own editors okay there was another editor but he also is accredited editor so which makes this i yeah i don't know just as as an editor this that i could feel that those fingerprints on it especially with like like you said like it plays with subjectivity also in the sound edit like that that deserves its own like just uh
00:36:01
Speaker
so segment of conversation because I love ah the sound. And like we get all these like subliminal, like, I guess like that, that, that we're, we're, we're hearing his programming repeat throughout the thing. Cause of like, where he's like remembering the the crash and accident we hear, like, where were Like that wouldn't have even been like in the sense of a memory in, especially in the language of memories and films. Yeah. he wouldn't have even heard like this is him imagining his dead family that doesn't actually exist saying where were you but they were they were already dead so they would have even if they were real that like comp that would they he who would have never actually heard that you know what i mean so it's like it's like work got a ah couple levels of of of artifice and then also i love the part where he goes to the bridge level the bridge imagery i feel like when we cut to the present he is walking on he's like jogging on a bridge like there's a lot of on a bridge Yeah. yeah So it's like he he's already been summoned at that. Like that's like me because like she says at the end four they were doing the bottle thing on the bridge.
00:37:07
Speaker
Right. So this is him coming now. Right. Like this is like he's been he's been summoned. He did not exist before. Yes. Saturday. He swims in Francisco, man.
00:37:18
Speaker
Yeah. ah but's chicago ah the ah But... But... What was I about to say? Oh, when when he goes to the bridge after he's heard the story from from the girl from the classmate and he repeats the the ritual, like, he steps onto the bridge and, like, all the crickets just stop. Like, there's, like, a little creepy moments like that or, like, later when he's in the forest, like...
00:37:41
Speaker
The sound editing is great there of like where you you just hear everything stop. There's just such an unnaturalness to that, especially since they have a stab. You have the establishing sounds of like nature and crickets. And then when all that's gone, that's just like the implication of like what's happening here. This is like something that's overriding nature.
00:37:57
Speaker
one One thing I wanted to touch on just in the actual construction of the film, just because we were talking about how there were two editors with this. I think part of the reason why we can feel a lot of the effort in how this film was handled in a post-production standpoint is because, like,
00:38:14
Speaker
They tried to make this movie for release back in like 2016, 2017, and they tried to release it back then, and they got low test scores before that, and that's why it got shelved.
Delayed Release and Mythical Concepts
00:38:25
Speaker
So just based on like what I know about filmmaking and what could have happened there, maybe they tried to get it edited with that original editor. When it got shelved, David Pryor took it over, and this is the cut that we're seeing with Pryor taking over.
00:38:37
Speaker
And that would make a lot of sense when we see a lot of these decisions, as well as how it carries over into the sound editing, because then at that point you wouldd have a lot more control over that aspect as well. So I think that the ah what we're seeing here is not just a film that came out in 2020. We're seeing a movie that someone had to sit with and like was trying to figure out and make the best possible thing of as what it could have been.
00:39:02
Speaker
and And going into the sound design just a bit more, ah there there are those repeated sounds you were saying, Doug. and And one thing I like is that they're all kind of exist within the same frequency and they have these similar kind of gestures and they all kind of point towards the the murmuring in the ear.
00:39:18
Speaker
Like, i feel like the tapping of the tooth. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. it's hit the havingpping maybe be oh yes all of the things that are triggers to him all exist within that register. And i feel like if you were to just like take a, all of the sound waves and put them all over top of one another, it'd probably sound very similar to the whispering. Not, not to say it would be one-to-one, but it just sounds like it exists within that same register.
00:39:43
Speaker
No, I think it totally does. I haven't tried that, but now I want to go back and good like pull out the sounds and and and do that because that that that all feels very intentional.
00:39:54
Speaker
um I wanted to mention, um when i again, when I was like reading through interviews, there was one I saw where he was saying that they kind of got like lost in the mix-up of COVID and the merger. And so he said they sort of forgot about them for a while. They had all the footage, and like you're saying, like they had made all of it. And so he was like, we were able to kind of tinker away at it for like a ribby long time without like being constantly hit up for...
00:40:22
Speaker
updates and stuff like that and so i think that's part of like what you see there and maybe like in a good way a lot of tinkering everyone loves that shot the moon and the finger whenever i show that to anyone everyone just goes oh that's such a cool shot that's a cool bit like they're in on it that that's a cool shot. And I feel like the other part, the one part that I feel like even people who don't know about this movie, like maybe see, or like when this ah clip of this like escapes onto social media is the transition from the map and zooming in and then the overhead of him driving is such a sick transition. ah it made me think of like, I mean, obviously
00:41:06
Speaker
he wasn't doing stuff like this in, in 80, whatever, when the first evil dead came out, but I thought about some of like the evil dead tracking shot or just like some of the like camera tricks, that like, uh, uh, uh, in a, he was, you know, Raymie working in a more lo-fi capacity, but like, I just, just to zoom into the text, like after the intro, uh, when it says the empty man, like the P's missing, like that, i think that's evil dead two, where we like zoomed through the,
00:41:32
Speaker
the text and intro to that. So there's there's like little ah visual flourishes like that that I really love. Then the other, I don't know if this would be editing, sorry, um is the Wikipedia scene. i was really happy to find when I was reading his interviews, he was like, that was a high, high priority for me. It was like a number one priority was at the Wikipedia moment. Like, folks, right, he's like, I never use a fake search engine. He goes to come and he types it in. And he's like, we couldn't get access to the Wikipedia logo. That's the only thing I'm missing that I feel. But when you look at it, you're like, that's a real...
00:42:07
Speaker
Like, that looks correct. It looks like a correct Wikipedia page. um And apparently that was also a priority for him, which is I was like, oh, that's we're on the same page about. I mean, it's a good priority. Yeah, because I always get but bummed out when it's either a fake search engine or something that a character wouldn't use. I think it's like one of the Garfield amazing Spider-Man movies like he's using Bing and shit. I'm like, Peter Parker would not be using Bing. What the fuck? Get to the fuck out of here.
00:42:34
Speaker
You wouldn't be Spider-Man if he had Bing. Right. he He would be a villain. He'd be a loser. He wouldn't be the cool person all the kids like. ah the The thing I like about that Wikipedia sequence is not just like having the Wikipedia there, but again, similarly to Fincher, it's his approach to...
00:42:54
Speaker
like displaying the digital world to where it's like cemented in the real one. Like there's never a shot where it's like inside of the computer. We are always aware of the scan lines. There's a wide shot where you can just see like the edges of the screen, but like there's not like, it's not like they wanted to punch in and just give you that information. They always wanted to sell you that it's all artificial in those ways.
00:43:15
Speaker
And with that transition with the map, one other movie has a map transition for travel, but Indiana Jones. is the and But I'm finding all the arcs here, but the...
00:43:27
Speaker
It's just ah ah the the whole tinkering thing can really be a blessing or a curse. Like we saw with this year, the War of the Worlds movie. I feel like that movie was also another one that was shelved and was tinkered away in the same way. And it can really be an undoing with some filmmakers. Sometimes some filmmakers, like they really understand what they have and what the key parts of their stories are supposed to be.
00:43:49
Speaker
And The Empty Man's the perfect example of what you can do when you have that freedom. I think Coppola said he's going to keep tinkering with Megalopolis. I assume it will only get worse as as he spends more time on it. I don't know. i don't So O'Veckry tinkers himself into a prison sentence.
00:44:07
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. That movie's way too much. ah But ah and the Empty Man. Yeah, that that Wikipedia sequence. could Because like we're talking about like noir detective tropes. like That's one of the... Things we've lost in some movies where someone goes to a library and they're like pulling out files or looking at microfiche. It's like, yeah, well, what's the modern version of it? You're just going do a Google search. And they get they get the details right on that. And ah while while we're on the topic, like, ah you know, I didn already invoke Tulpa. I feel like you were there for the the Eddington review, Tony. I i kept like i kept dropping Tulpa a lot, but I never even explained like what what that was. I just assumed everyone has the same brain worms as me and and knows what... Like, you've seen Twin Peaks. You know what a Tulpa is. Come on.
00:44:55
Speaker
ah But, you know, if you're this deep into it and you're not... yeah a freak like us, like a Tulpa, you know, it's, it's like basically like a conjured thought form. but they add The idea of like you, ah the focus whether intentionally or not, that it's like focus was put into something for so long that it then became real. Kind of similar to like,
00:45:21
Speaker
How gods work in American gods, where it's like once someone stops believing in them, that's like how to kill a god. ah i don't know who wrote those books. No one. I don't think anyone wrote them, actually. um The American.
00:45:33
Speaker
Yeah. Author unknown. It's been the wind. Yeah. They just appeared like, like text that just appeared. um But what else was I supposed to say something else about Tulpa? Oh, another great read about Tulpa is like, if you're interested in that subject, the author of Mothman prophecies goes into like, if you've just seen the movie, I, I really enjoy the Richard Gere movie, but the, the reals,
00:46:02
Speaker
quote real story and like how that guy's brain works is so fascinating like I would have loved to see the version of that movie where they make Richard Gere like the actual author of of the Mothman prophecy i mean he kind of is is basically like The guy Richard Gere goes to visit, I think, like in Chicago or something, who's like an expert on like extra dimensional stuff. It's like, no, that's basically how the real guy like talks about stuff. But like his theory is like that, like all these different supernatural things like aliens, Mothman, angels, demons, ghosts are just various like either.
00:46:40
Speaker
projections from some ultra dimensional intelligence or also like it's like a tulpa like that's like this is like from the the uh you know collective unconscious like something we've summoned like is why there's you know accounts of some of these things can be the same people describe aliens looking a certain way it's like yeah because that's like in our collective unconscious and we some to look that way plus all that's to say topos are cool oh Always.
00:47:08
Speaker
And I feel like they kind of had a moment for a while. I feel like there was like a ah period where there were many movies that had tulpas in them. And i've I've had this conversation with you before, Doug, where I always have seen these urban legends, these myths and stuff as just like a reflection of society rather than just, you know, like creepy, cool stuff. Sure. And in my eyes, I feel like the Tulpa is the perfect representation of like ah the digital modern age. Right. Like what?
00:47:35
Speaker
what How perfect is it in this film that this guy goes online, goes crazy and then becomes the messiah of his own story. Right. Like that just makes sense for what the horrors of our modern day is. And if you wanted to take any kind of political meaning from this film, that's it right there. Sure.
00:47:53
Speaker
But when it comes to like how it works within this grander piece of, you know, what a tulpa is or what the creepy part of what what what are the dangers of a tulpa? It's this idea of like the more attention you give it, the worse it gets.
00:48:07
Speaker
and And something that we didn't touch on earlier, but I think it's good to circle back on this. The question of like ah ah how other people interact with the main character, like how some of those things are kind of soft. I actually think that it's because all of those people are personally affected by the deaths and the disappearance. And the fact that the people who ah were disappeared or killed ah are the ones who were responsible for that. There's a symmetry to that.
00:48:34
Speaker
There is the fact that they are so searching for those people and those people were the ones who inflicted that pain. The fact that the Talbot can kind of come in as the kind of center point between those two ah struggles, that means something. And I think that that speaks to what a Talbot represents just largely.
00:48:52
Speaker
Yeah, that's a great point. Sorry, you go. No, no, I was just agreeing. Go ahead. I was just going to say, I feel like tulpas hit it big with Slenderman, like with the cookie pasta.
00:49:02
Speaker
Then there was like our tulpa and there were people trying to make their own tulpas on purpose. i remember that was kind of a thing for a while, I guess. Or people said it was a thing they were doing. um and i think that's also part of where this comes from like even outside of the prestige horror thing i wonder if he helped to sell it by being like you got like the slender man movie this is like the slender man movie it's the amplitude yeah right exactly and it's sort of that's the expectation whenever i show it to people that's what they assume it's going to be and i'm like i guess yeah but it's done right
00:49:35
Speaker
you know But maybe that's also the flaw of this movie, because it's not even just the Slender Man movie that had this at the same time, but also the Bye Bye Man. I think the Bye Bye Man fucked this movie over because the people that that became a meme. And then people conflated the two things. Like I bring up the empty man. They're like, oh, you mean the Bye Bye Man or the the pee pee poo poo man? yeah There's a movie that just came out called the pee pee poo man. Apparently it's very good. I just thrown that out there.
00:50:03
Speaker
Yes, I heard about this, too. i I saw that I thought that was maybe a meme, too. I was like, OK, they didn't really make a movie, right? It'd be like if someone went and made that fake Scorsese movie that was like a meme. But that wasn't a good meme. So no one should make that movie.
00:50:17
Speaker
Well, the people who made it are from Toronto. So it makes sense that they would make a movie like that. That's all i'll say. But yeah, i feel like with the talking about that, like the digital is really in the digital, like we don't get sunk into it.
00:50:31
Speaker
I think he can do that partially because he's correct created like a fake internet. I think he's like nihilistic group of teens and that are all getting together after school and talking about stuff like they are doing and becoming nihilistic and violent or whatever is happening with them. It is the internet, but he's doing it without it being like...
00:50:53
Speaker
So annoying. i think he's really good at doing allegory in here that isn't like eye rolling and just like we get it like the teens are bad and everything. Right. Because he's not saying the Internet is making kids kill themselves, but no it's in there. You know, like it's just it's just not yelling it at you.
00:51:14
Speaker
He hates like postmodern thought. I think I saw him say that in an interview, like specifically like the postmodernist thing of like nothing is real. i i expected to find like a more neutral stance. And he was just like, I think it's stupid. I don't like it.
00:51:27
Speaker
And can kind of feel there's a mean spirited. i showed this to someone and he was thinking about that tape portion where it's like you can never convey anything in a way anyone will understand. He's like, yeah, right. So I guess let's just all fucking kill ourselves. Let's give up. Like and the movie's just like, that's so stupid.
00:51:44
Speaker
And James has that response to stuff, too, of like when ah I feel like that's the first conversation he has with with Amanda when when she's like, nothing is real. And he's like, lots of things are real, Amanda. Right. That be normal. Like, what are you talking about?
00:51:59
Speaker
Totally. And I just love how sick of their shit he gets as the thing goes on. Like, he's already, he's kind of kind of amused the first time he goes to Pond effects. And then by the time he's kidnapping that one kid who he says talks like Neil Cassidy. I love that actor just in that those two scenes he has. Like, the fact that no one else in this movie is, like, taught like i've I've said this is, like, interacting with, like,
00:52:23
Speaker
ah you know hard-boiled detective or nar tropes but no one's it's not doing like a like a brick thing where like you know everyone in brick has like a very stylized way of talking or anything except for this one character he's like he's just like yeah man these cats got names for everything exposition sorry go ahead I said I call him Evil Joe Keery.
00:52:45
Speaker
He also plays Elrond in the Rings of Power show, I guess. I didn't even make it through all that show, but I i guess he went on to to do a Lord of the Rings show.
00:52:56
Speaker
ah But he's still happening. I think it got canceled. Or it is happening. Another season. Oh, my God. no I mean, I guess they just spent too much money on it. They have to keep going. run wrong rung in ah instinct. it's It's actually how much money can they launder?
00:53:12
Speaker
Yeah, that's that's how streaming works, actually. ah He knows it's a noir drama. And he oh this is with a fair flair for the dramatic. And he's like, cool, we'll play into that.
00:53:25
Speaker
Because he's playing dumb in that one interaction, but we see him in the hospital later. So it's like he's
Character Interactions and Reality Blurring
00:53:30
Speaker
in on it. He's acting like he's just saying he's just saying what he was told. But we could tell by how his response to stuff that he is fully a full believer. Like when he's when when he's fully going like Joker mode and laughing in his face as ah as he's via James's...
00:53:47
Speaker
wailing on him like that he's not like yeah maybe that he was putting up an act to like draw him further into this but in terms of like his belief in it it's not an act like he's not like a casual like oh let me just check out what this pontifex thing's about like no he the people who are there at the hospital Yeah, people who are there at the hospital are like fully in on it, and including I've seen you point out this performance, like that that nurse or receptionist that he talks to outside of the room is such an eerie performance. Maybe one of the scariest moments in the movie because she like drifts in and out of like lucidity of like where it's like.
00:54:26
Speaker
you think that she's maybe, you know, like if you see someone working in a hospital, they, you don't know, they've been there. It could be we on like a 24 hour longer shift. So someone being kind of out of it in that sense tracks, but then the longer he talks to her she's talking like she is part of the cult, but she not is, she's not always a hundred percent saying things in that way. So it's like, she's like, it's almost like, are you under some kind of influence right now? Or like what's happening? It's like everyone in the proximity of this guy is like being warped or something.
00:54:55
Speaker
You're like not supposed to tell anyone anything if they're not fam. you The guy just shows up. That one scene just it does perfectly illustrate like how the tulpa takes over the consciousness. So for the nurse in that scene, who I think is really great and really eerie, she reminds me a lot of Exorcist 3, which is like one of my very favorite horror movies. In general, she reminds me of a lot of it. Like, I think that's relevant to him um making this movie and those scenes. But, like, especially the doctor that we see, like, memorizing a speech about how he got there.
00:55:31
Speaker
ah And then, like, putting it away, which I always think is very Twin Peaks to me. But, um... It really makes me think of that and that she's kind of doing a similar thing because we always I always look for her. I don't think she's there at the very end. Like when they like bow, I don't think she's there. And I don't know why. i couldn't tell. Yeah. They maybe only got her for a day.
00:55:53
Speaker
and we're like yeah Or she served her purpose and that was it was just to get him like everything that's happening to him is to get him to the end point, including her, maybe.
00:56:06
Speaker
So like, because I'm. yeah might not be a real We might have real doctors in there and she was just there because, again, she's like good at acting delivering the lines and then they sent her back out. Or it's just like the guy that's the follower to the guy in the hospital room.
00:56:22
Speaker
The people who are these like NPCs he speaks to are nothing but these like motivating factors for him to dig deeper into this mystery. It can work. in any of those directions. It can be earnest. It can be not. It could be within the reality that these kids had cooked up. It could be just other people who exist within this scenario who are being impacted by the myth of the empty man.
00:56:44
Speaker
All of these readings are valid and equal, which is remarkable to do, especially when you have a script that is leaning so hard in this idea of the unknown as a horror. The fact that it can still manage to be scary and unsettling while doing this kind of thing, it's impressive.
00:57:01
Speaker
Because they're not mutually exclusive. It could be both, you know, like it could be like some, you know, like it's it's to draw him further in. It could be some other kind of like maybe they can also create constructs that are, you know, just do short purposes thing, you know, like not a full like empty man. But, you know, to to this end of just to get him to that point, which to the empty man himself or itself We know what the Pontifex Institute wants. They want a conduit, a so way to reach this thing and communicate with it. Like, that's what the empty man, titular empty man is. There's not even like a name for what they're communing with, really, like other than it. Right. oh like see
00:57:43
Speaker
Yeah. The empty man. Yeah. It's like whatever the darkness is. like Right, it's it nothingness. Kind of like, a what's what's that one ah movie where it's like the personification nothingness? Oh, ah The Something House. the the The Night House? The Night House. The Hall Helm? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kind of similar to to that, where like that that is just like a being of nothingness. But it's like, yeah, there's not even...
00:58:12
Speaker
This thing has no real shape or like we see something chasing James. And at the end, when he like, you know, fully becomes what he's meant to be, you know, there's something that looks otherworldly. There's maybe some kind of tentacle action. A mouth opens up stuff. Some gunk spills it into his mouth. But like, that's not even...
00:58:31
Speaker
the other thing that they're like that they're like we don't we don't know what it is like that and that's what i mean like that it fully captures that like lovecraftian like notion of like that there there's no face or even a name to to this thing it is it it just is should we give it a name what does name be bob no wait that's swim peaks uh shit yeah exactly just is like the devil right it's like the thing from a event horizon It's just the void. Because that's what he talks about. Like, what does it mean to stare into the void? Like when Root is like going on his spiel. That's such a good scene. Like he's he's just it's he's great at at doing that, just showing up for a little bit and not getting out of the park. But this is such such a great, great use of Root.
00:59:20
Speaker
ah Because I love how just dismissive James is of him. And then like he is... unsettled by like, I mean, he's just kind of weirded out by a lot of Pontifex stuff, but like, I feel like what Steven Root is saying to him, like does strike some kind of nerve, maybe like even unconsciously because he doesn't fully know his own nature, but like just, you know, all, all, all the things that Root is, is saying about nothingness and, and and that thing that I referenced before, like that it becomes gibberish if you, you know, repeat something long enough. It's like, that's, that's him. Mm-hmm.
00:59:54
Speaker
We'll also like to have Oh, Dior, go ahead. You go. ah what I was going to say was that, like, ah Root is, he's the biggest actor in the film, right? He's probably going to be the person that, like, most people are going to be watching this and go, like, oh, I'm calling attention to this. And then the fact that his scene is just amounting to a shrug and a red herring, I think that's very on purpose.
01:00:14
Speaker
um And then also, just as a kind of side note, um I just, in general, appreciate the fact that so much of the budget of this film went towards just the production. I like the fact that they didn't, like, go the other route where they took that money and they maybe, like,
01:00:28
Speaker
you know, got an Ethan Hawke in the lead role. And then that was that, right? I feel like so many movies do go that route where they just focus on the stars, where this one was just like, no, we're go to focus on how to really cleverly film this.
01:00:40
Speaker
And they have a little dar. His name is James Badgedale. Sure. I heard he's in the 13 Hours movie. i yeah I was going to say his rare non-military propaganda movie. That's normal. You don't want war movies. It's going be tough to find him.
01:00:57
Speaker
guy. He's a soldier. Yeah, it's it's rough being a fan. i he needs to do more Westerns or even I'll even watch him in conservative things if it's like interest interesting. Because like if you've ever seen ah the standoff at Sparrow Creek, like that's a very interesting use of him. He's like a former.
01:01:15
Speaker
He's also for a cop in that. But he's like part of this conservative militia. And it's like him trying to weed out which one of them maybe shot up a cop's funeral. And and it's like this whole like. like potboiler, like neo-noir thing. And he's terrific in it. So like, i' I'll, lost you know, go out of my comfort zone to us so watch something with him.
01:01:34
Speaker
I like hate watch 13 hours and he's better in it than what's his name? Krasinski. Because he just commits, whatever the project is. He doesn't, yeah, he doesn't get down on the project. He's just better at acting than him, I think. And yeah yeah, he shows up. And like that character, like he plays that character like he's an asshole. He doesn't like try to make him seem overly nice or anything. And I think he does the same thing here. Like he just fully commits. Everyone does. i think the girl who plays Amanda is great.
01:02:06
Speaker
Yeah, she's great. And on i mean, because that's a tough ask to when you give someone like unnatural dialogue, you know, like I feel like that that's got to be like because obviously you have to memorize the lines themselves, but then also like get the like cadence and like weirdness. right Because like that's like just like against your instincts to be like, I well i want to make this feel real and natural. like, no, actually, you're not be real.
01:02:31
Speaker
Yeah. And she has a really like weird chemistry with him that she has to maintain. Because when you first see that scene, every time I've ever watched it with anyone, they're like, wait, what is this? Who are these two to each other? I don't like this. and then you Right. Because there it it feels almost a little achy. for You're like, wait, is there a... And eventually like takes a position of like authority over him that's believable.
01:02:55
Speaker
and it which I think is really impressive for her situation and acting with him too. Like, I think that's really impressive. Yeah. I just keep going back to like the, that's that these questions need to answering for like, Oh fuck does Amanda get it? Cause like, she seems like high up in, you know, pop you know, whatever the shape of Pontifex is like, you know, we see all these different, there's not even like one aesthetic for like what a Pontifex person looks like. Like when he looks up, when he's seeing Steven root talk, Those people are like dressed like Mormons kind of and stuff. And it's like she's not fully doing that, but she's like organized all of this. So it's like the people, the people who are working on projects, empty man or, you know, making James like that. Those are like the ones in charge. But it's like, how did this girl become like, is this a legacy? Is there or is she born into this? how How did that even happen?
01:03:47
Speaker
It's unknowable. Her dad did die. that that would probably be the entry point. Like I would assume that if she had. If if that's real, like that, that like she was looking for meaning in in her dad's death and then she found this.
01:04:01
Speaker
Yeah. And she's just like naturally charismatic, a natural leader kind of a thing. Like, don't know. This girl seems like she can summon an empty man. I think we should listen to her. And also like a lot of this is just strangely geographic. So it just does come down to like how susceptible people are in this small town and and and if they are the right vessels for this message.
01:04:21
Speaker
And it just seems like for whatever reason, she's just like the perfect embodiment of that for this. and And the fact that she is able to go toe-to-toe, like you were saying, Rachel, you know, like it's, she's she's got a look to her. She's got like a ah a weight to her performance that you never second guess it. And it's kind of the but best thing that you get from when you're working with actors who are maybe a bit below the line in terms of stars is that they always deliver, is that they really care about the material, is they actually like want to give a good performance. So it's really refreshing when you have whole...
01:04:55
Speaker
crew of actors who are actually really interested in the material they're given. Yeah. And then also, ah yeah, Maren Ireland, the mother, she's great too. Like I always loved, loved seeing her and stuff. Did you ever see that movie? It was like from the director who did the original like strangers. And I know Tony, we've talked about how that's not our favorite movie, but his followup to that was really weird. And I remember that sticking. with It was like kind of like,
01:05:24
Speaker
like really mean and bleak uh what was it called dark in the wicked i think it was she's she's creating that i don't think i ever saw that movie but like i trust your opinions on movies obviously and also i just imagine any movie is better than the strangers so more than the strangers too i was gonna say the none of the rennie harlan ones those are probably worse i don't know i am not going to watch them ever you like i've I got everything I needed out of Prey at Night, you know, the platonic ideal of a Strangers movie.
01:05:55
Speaker
I'm glad that the Strangers franchise can best be enjoyed with just a YouTube clip. That's all you need to see from the franchise. And beyond that, you're wasting your time. Hey, I think Prey at Night has other sequences besides the the total eclipse of the heart part. But, you know, i give it to me.
01:06:13
Speaker
it Emotionally, it's true. right I think also the cop is really good. You mentioned the hand signal earlier, which I always think of Tenet when he does it. It's like doing like the ah in front of the coffee cup. And I'm like, I find that strangely.
01:06:28
Speaker
for a They did it first. ah sure I don't think anyone. Yeah, I don't think anyone knows like. knew anything about either one, but they're both about like how to make a movie. Like like how how do you write a story and like craft it? And both are sort of like, it's a movie. so you know I mean, nolan no one has his fingers in the lots of pots, you know, like people show him stuff that that are friends with them when when they're working on it, you know, like... like Joseph Gordon-Levitt showed him Don John as he was working on. So maybe maybe David Pryor knows Nolan. That's just funny to imagine Nolan seeing Don John.
01:07:06
Speaker
Do you think that Joseph Gordon-Levitt tried to get Christopher Nolan to make a hit record account? but Probably. at some time yeah I think they probably would. ah One thing i was going to bring up, just getting back to Empty Man a bit. Rach, have you seen the movie Butterfly Kisses?
01:07:24
Speaker
No. Yeah, we we covered it on the podcast and it's fantastic. And it's like very similar to Empty Man. And one thing I wanted to double check and I just did was that this movie like came out in 2018. So technically, like they made it before Empty Man came out, but Empty Man technically was made first. Yeah. And it's very fascinating how those two films intersect and reflect one another as well.
01:07:49
Speaker
ah Just based on the whole like Tulpa myth, as well as like this question of filmmaking itself as like the underlying theme that's going on with it. Butterfly Kisses makes it far more overt.
01:08:01
Speaker
yeah it's on Tubi. Check it out. it's it's It's a very meta found footage movie, just like about urban legend. And like it's dealing with a lot of these these same themes. So because Yeah, i I think that, like like we've been saying, this is ultimately, it's about myth-making, but just storytelling in general.
01:08:21
Speaker
ah in the story Not just, like, storytelling in a narrative sense, but the stories we tell ourselves to make sense of things, because, like, that's...
01:08:32
Speaker
how people get through life, how we make make ah it defined, they give meaning to things. And, and that's like the empty, or I guess we didn't give it a name yet, but the, you know, the thing that the empty man connects to is like the antithesis of that. It's like, there is no meaning that you can ascribe to it because there's, there's that scene with the, but the, the cop, like you ah were shouting out,
01:08:55
Speaker
uh where he's just going off on like how inexplicable not just the deaths of these kids are but all these other weird things that have been happening he talks about like a mother fed her child to like a dog or something and then wrote like the empty man made me do it and and he has the line that i always always sticks with me he's like you can't indict the cosmos like that it's like it's it explains like this is We have no control about this. Like that you could. Yeah, you could you could give the mom the death sentence or put her in jail. But it's like, what does that solve?
01:09:26
Speaker
Yeah. I have another thought, but it's escaping me for a moment. Sorry. It's happened a lot today. It's brain fart central here on these guys got juice. ah The what was something else I had the whole like the.
01:09:42
Speaker
production of the film that was something that we were talking about before most of it was shot in South Africa but then they also did shoot one week in Chicago so that's why I mix it up with San Francisco people oh okay I thought you were just trying to in you know like intimate that I was total bullet because I'm from Chicago and you're just saying like oh I'm I grew up in Chicago I'm like what are you trying to say trying to say I'm a thought form well Well, here's the deal, actually. Like, Rachel and I just really wanted to talk about The Empty Man. And then you manifested to be the vehicle in which we could talk about The Empty Man. That's how this podcast is. He transmits and we receive. this gun No, no, no. I have memories. I did stuff.
01:10:23
Speaker
I i have baby pictures. Wait, I can't find them now. was shit The ultimate punchline of him looking through the file folder, and it says, I'm mean up in San Francisco, and the Daymarin article, is so good. is This is just like the same grammatical, like the same construction of a sentence.
01:10:46
Speaker
Yeah, it's just so good. So I want a guy necessarily who grows just like growing up in San Francisco. That's what they put in his in his bio. They put the concept of growing up in San for Francisco. Like you said, Tony, like no actual memories to back that up. Just the idea. Yeah.
01:11:01
Speaker
yeah I always love it when there is this kind of movie where it's like, it's not just like, is this inside the character's head? But it's like, okay, if this is inside of a character's head, or if this is all built around a character, then it would also have to like match the way that they perceive the world, not just in like a, you know, visual sense, but also just like how you construct your sentences.
01:11:23
Speaker
how you interpret ah language and information and all of those things. So when you're seeing those little bits like that, you're getting that fleshed out there. And then also just talking about ah the protagonist's whole arc in the film and how that relates to the empty man's myth itself. The idea that he's like burdened with this guilt that he's able to then let be free by the end, by taking on his true form. It also feeds into this like spiritual belief system that exists within these people.
01:11:51
Speaker
Very tidy stuff. Right, yeah, if he didn't exist, then he didn't lead to his wife's death by having... But that scene is still every time. Like, it's so funny how much, but for good reason, it doesn't track that that would happen. You're like, here now?
01:12:06
Speaker
She's right now. Like, how are you getting home? what's the plan? It's snowing. I like, don't believe you would do that. Didn't ever see everyone else leave but him? Like, isn't everyone like weird? Is he headed out? His wife left, right? Like what's going on? You forget his keys. like yeah Like, well, he was like a former cop or something. So you just got a ride. And then then the other cop is, it's the, the, you know, Kona signed Luke, you know, yeah blue thin blue line that's is his line. It helps in adultery as well. Yes.
01:12:38
Speaker
Yeah, he called them. It's give them a wreck. Yeah, that's why it's not in the force anymore. You only get one, and then you're done. Well, yeah, they're like, we can't be a part of this. We'll help someone commit cheat on their wife. But if your family's going to die, that's just too far. That's too far? You're replicating us at that point.
01:12:56
Speaker
Yeah, like, he yeah, he quits. Like, he stops being a cop over that, which I feel like that is a pretty low. He's, like, the best cop in the country.
Protagonist's Journey and Symbolism
01:13:04
Speaker
He's, like, the pop the least of the best cop in the country.
01:13:08
Speaker
but Right. movie He's still a cop. Yeah. like He just owns that little defense store. And then the guy, when the cops see him, they're like, you're that former cop, right? He's like, sure am. That's why I'm allowed to solve crimes here. And they're like, yeah, sounds good. At least he was a cop. It's it's not like Tom Cruise in Eyes Wide Shut where he just has like the doctor badge and he's flashing at people. So it's like he he did. Well, I guess he didn't possess that authority because that's invented. So like the fact that other cops remember him as a former cop, that's also like where they incepted. Was that a planted memory? Like how how much can they conjure, you know, like with with their.
01:13:48
Speaker
Like, I don't know. It seems like they can do kind of whatever they want. I really like how we're introduced to him, like selling the mace to that woman and how he sells her like a cheaper mace, even though ah but ah because it's more effective. And that beat right there illustrates to you that like he doesn't really care about like, you know, making his position in life better. He wants to help people. Yeah.
01:14:14
Speaker
Exactly. So when he is in this like cop mode that we see throughout the whole film, ah we naturally buy it. But then what happens is is there's a term where we recognize that this isn't really out of selfish ah selflessness. This isn't out of him trying to like, you know, find this missing kid. It really is a selfish journey for him to try to better understand himself. And the more and more he comes to terms to that, the more that he can like truly become the thing that he was always supposed to be. And that involves...
01:14:43
Speaker
eschewing all empathy i love the scene where uh you know we referenced the wood the wood scene uh a little bit but like when he first gets there and it's daytime he finds the folders on like all the kids that uh were dead and then there's like the folder on him that's red and then it's just there's nothing in like it's planted for him to find right exactly like what Yeah, it's all for him. I also love the freaky like video in that that that they find. he video real Is the The teddy bear has to be totally fake.
01:15:17
Speaker
I think the teddy bear is a red herring for him. We do see the teddy bear move, though, that's i just without him looking at the teddy bear. I didn't clock that ah before until this watch where i was like, did that bear just move?
01:15:34
Speaker
It like and they like budge nudges. And then so when he finds it on his stoop, it's almost like, it just get there on its own? like because With it on his stoop, I imagined he was followed by those. Those are the most crazed people we see. I'm assuming that's who lives in the barracks because they're like totally like hive mind.
01:15:55
Speaker
At that point. Because they're like throwing themselves into his car. but The ones that are chasing him. Yeah. like because then what's Because then they almost seem feral. Because it's like, how does that almost... for like if but They could have hurt him if they were just like lunging themselves after him. was like, you kind of need him. So like careful. He's key to your whole thing. But they might not even...
01:16:15
Speaker
you know, like, they're not on the same level as Amanda and the people who actually conjured him. So, like, but maybe they were conjuring him in the woods. So, like, it's it's it's unclear, like, of the ah dissemination of, like, leadership. But du they could even be, you know, like, different, you know, like, ski whether it's, like, you know, sects of a of church, you know, it's like yeah there's different ah factions within pontifex or empty man worshipers. But also, that is, like...
01:16:45
Speaker
one of my favorite horror movie line reads it's just like when they start stepping towards him in unison which we also see in the beginning when she sees the figure in the snow in the opening of like it steps towards her and like in in rhythm with with her like everything he does is like already been we've seen the template of that but it's just like yeah no running away it's so good yeah it's a very modern like horror line read it's like very it's not like get out but it's of that mind no yeah it's it who's like i'm not doing i'm not touching that no way right it's a very normal guy reaction and and then even as he's driving away he's like what the fuck was that like that that's
01:17:28
Speaker
This is makes no sense to a normal person. So like they would. Yeah. What one want to get away and then be very flustered. And that's that's also funny. Like when he sees the Baroness porch, like this is kind of like because he looks freaked out. He has the very, you know, like there we are. There's already two days of discourse about if is Leo's face in one battle funny or not when.
01:17:51
Speaker
Sean Penn says that he loves black black girls, but James Banstiel has a very similar face of like the reacting to the the the bear. And I contend both cases. It's funny and scary because it's like he does not know. how Yeah, he does not know how this got here. So he's legitimately frightened, but his face is very funny. I was going to mention because this always comes up to me.
01:18:15
Speaker
There's an account on Twitter. i don't know if you follow. it's like how many cigarettes are in the movie. And it's a guy who goes through any logs. So I help him do some of those. I've done. Oh, hell yeah. Hell yeah. And I did this movie. Let him know that we love him.
01:18:26
Speaker
I will. Important. and looks to Anyone do it. if you If you're willing to go through and take screenshots, it's very it's a fun way to spend like 30 minutes. But I did this movie because there is so much smoking in this movie that it's almost suspicious to me. Like he's smoking cigarettes. He gives the 18 year old girl who gets it. Horace cigarette. Yeah. But evil Joe Keery smoking a cigarette. I'm like, you just and my husband's like, that's pretty accurate to St. Louis. like People are still smoking cigarettes there. I'm like, maybe. But that's like it every time it strikes me as like one of the only modern movies I've seen that like for kind of no reason at all has people smoking cigarettes. Almost as a counterpoint to the modernness of like that, that's just like not allowed anymore. But then also like it does fit the like, you know, you know, hardboiled detective mystery vibe of like that. That's just like an aesthetic almost. Yeah.
Director David Pryor's Style and Future
01:19:22
Speaker
Rach, have you seen The Leftovers?
01:19:23
Speaker
No, I haven't. I know I should. Well, I'm not going to spoil it too much for you, but I will say that there is like a kind of cult group in that show called the Guilty Remnant. And their whole bit is that they're kind of like checked out on reality and their whole and the way that they display that is they all they all wear all white and they all smoke cigarettes, chain smoke all the time. They're chain smoking nihilists. Yeah, it's awesome. Exactly. Yeah.
01:19:49
Speaker
And I kind of view that smoking bit that you had there in line with the empty man in term in the sense that like all these characters, the moment that this empty man being enters their lives, they start to surrender more and more of themselves to that.
01:20:06
Speaker
And at that point, like what is smoking, but just like enjoying the moment rather than prolonging your life. Right. So I might even go. It's not even a value judgment because I used to smoke, but it's like we all know what that does to you. So there is a bit of nihilism involved of like, yeah, yeah I don't. Part of the bit. I used to smoke cigarettes to her. Like even when I occasionally do now, it's part of the bit. You're like, yeah, I know.
01:20:31
Speaker
I'm not supposed to do that. I don't care if I die. you Come and get me. It's a metaphor. ah Any other ah moments we want to shout out? We talked about the the woods, ah the Neal Cassidy guy.
01:20:50
Speaker
I like the music a lot. I especially like yeah get to those like heavy electric guitars. It does really start to sound like a David Fincher film with with ah the way Grant Reznor would come in. but it's But it does feel like its own thing. yeah who dude Who did the score for this?
01:21:07
Speaker
Let's see. Also, apparently David Pryor is filming his next film as we speak. Like he just started production like a few weeks ago. I was just going to say I saw that when I was looking it up, ah looking up this movie that I didn't know he anything pretty because he hasn't really made. This is like his featured debut. He did that ah short for a cabinet of curiosities.
01:21:29
Speaker
Arguably, I mean, i'm kind of not arguably that is the best one. Like, I mean, I like I like a couple of the other ones, but his I don't know if you've you've seen it. Right. She did an episode that Guillermo del Toro. uh, Netflix thing. And I think this movie he's doing now is for, for Netflix. It's like based off of one Guillermo's, uh, books.
01:21:48
Speaker
Uh, I didn't read this particular, but I only read the vampire books that Guillermo wrote. Uh, but this is like the same, like author that he did that with Chuck Russell. It's called,
01:22:02
Speaker
The boy in the iron box. Plane carrying a team of mercenaries crashes on a remote snowy summit. They come across a maze like stone fortress and terror takes a new shape.
01:22:15
Speaker
I don't Sounds cool. I don't know much about this movie, but all I know is that you're not supposed to put boys in iron boxes. So, you know, there's there's something afoot. You know, I'm excited to see what's going on. ah But but Rach, you haven't seen the episode, the curiosity. No, I can't. No.
01:22:31
Speaker
Yeah, it's there's thematic overlap with the empty man. Like it that also is tapping into that Lovecraftian like ah otherworldly terror in in the cast of it's almost kind of just like a play because it's like ah mostly a couple characters having a conversation. But F. Murray Abraham is like the star of that segment. And I mean, it's always great seeing him. So it's it's really good.
01:22:58
Speaker
yeah I also think that like it does Lovecraft better than this then The Empty Man, because I do think The Empty Man is its own thing. I don't think it's trying to be Lovecraftian. I said Lovecraftian just as like that's the closest animal. i mean, because like you he didn't even...
01:23:14
Speaker
you know, invent that kind of, horror you know, like there's precursors to what he was doing. know, I'm lazy in the same way of like, you people say stuff is lynchian when they probably should, but that that term gets thrown around a lot. But I get what you're saying, that this is very much its own beast.
01:23:32
Speaker
Well, what I'm saying, like, to to put a finer point on that, like, when when you type in, like, on Google and you go and look on, like, ah you know, forums and stuff and people post, like, what are the most, the best, most Lovecraftian movies? This movie gets brought up a lot. And I think that that is kind of a mistake. I do think that, like, people are glomming on to the things that they like about Lovecraft And then like trying to wedge it too much into the empty man rather than just kind of trying to appreciate what this is doing and how the thing, the ways in which it deviates from like the Lovecraftian narratives are actually the most interesting parts of the narrative.
01:24:06
Speaker
Yeah, I would i want to say I was I wasn't trying to say like, you know, you were labeling it Lovecraft. No, I just I just need to come clean about my intellectual laziness the labels incorrectly.
01:24:19
Speaker
The last thing I wanted to mention was, I don't know if you've seen it's such a specific Connor O'Malley's stand-up special, Stand-Up Solutions. Oh, I love it. Yeah. Yeah, his whole bit about hit the fantasy that he has about like, oh, my wife and my kid. and the Punisher fantasy, yeah Right. and I also think of friendship when he has the post-apocalyptic fantasy.
01:24:43
Speaker
I think of that here with when we're trying to make a character that audiences will like, will understand and appreciate. This to me like rhymes with that um in terms of what they've given to him.
01:24:56
Speaker
I mean, and also going off, ah I invoked our ah edited review. That's also about a man who needs to invent a scenario where he can be the hero the hero. So it's like this is all kind of playing at the same thing of like it's not just storytelling on ah on a broader sense. It's like the personal narratives and the narratives that we try and push about ourselves of like, no, I am a good guy. I'm doing the right thing. Every once in a while, people talk about like, oh, you know, horror movies need to be more reactionary again. And I think that this is actually what that sentiment means. The idea of exploring what reactionary thought entails.
01:25:36
Speaker
And something like this is about like how somebody gets lost and swept away within that thought or that stream of consciousness. Yeah, totally. Hell yeah.
01:25:47
Speaker
Hell yeah. Okay. Well, yeah, I think think we've pretty much... Just scrolling through the movie here. There's something I forgot, but I i think i think we we we hit everything ah we need to. ah So as as we as we wrap it up... oh Oh, sorry, Tony, did you have something you want to say? I thought I saw your hand move. One more thing, I guess, just on the David Fincher of it all. Like, I do really like the coverage in this movie. I do think that the the fact that there are so many different angles in in this, like, just even simple conversational scenes...
01:26:18
Speaker
um It's something that David Fincher does all the time where it's like, you know, most people just do the sharp or shot for a shot. But if you go back and you look and see at how many different times they're punching in and fresh setups, it would take a lot of time. It would take a lot of money. It would take a lot of like even possible full days to shoot those scenes to get all of those extra angles.
01:26:37
Speaker
It just speaks to how considerate Pryor was to make this film. It's why this movie stands out as well as it does. And it's why I think that it has earned its cult status. Yeah. Yeah. Pun intended. I mean, the well-deserved cult status and hopefully we can grow, grow that cult. Cause I, I, I, I not just want people to, to more people to be aware of this movie, but I, you know, David Pryor, he already has something lined up like that Netflix thing, but yeah i I want to see more from him. Like this is like ah such a great calling card of a very unique, unique,
01:27:10
Speaker
our artistic voice like like we said distinct from fincher even if you can see that you know the dna of that in it and just want see what's on this guy's mind because i'm i'm very compelled by what i've seen so far um but do you guys have any plugs rachel do you have anything you want plug um We can include the link to my sub stack. I haven't written there in a minute, but I have a couple of things. I usually look at gender in horror movies and stuff like that, but it depends.
01:27:39
Speaker
I wrote something about Pixel Perfect that I'm still trying to add on to, which is a Disney Channel original movie. So oh it depends. But other than that, I don't really have anything to plug. Yeah, and i'll i'll link I'll link your Twitter, too. That's the most I've been interested in watching a Disney Channel original thing. and for Like, you just of like, oh, wow, if there's something enough to write there about it. maybe Maybe I should watch it. so It's very Black Mirror. I do actually recommend it in the AI age. It's very prescient, I would say. I mean, it's also like a Disney Channel original movie, but it's written by one guy who only ever wrote one.
01:28:13
Speaker
And they get into a lot of weird stuff. it's I don't know. It's fun and it's goofy. I do recommend it. This poster looks familiar. Like just like looking at this art from, i was like, I feel like that's about the time The future.
01:28:27
Speaker
but but Okay,
Podcast and Personal Projects Promotion
01:28:30
Speaker
cool. Sounds good. ah Tony, got anything to plug? Yeah. ah Well, I've got a few episodes of Two Cent Critics coming up soon. There's an episode on Comet that's going to be coming out, I believe, later this week. So if you like Justin Long.
01:28:46
Speaker
ah Is that the S-Mail movie? Yes. Okay. I never saw that. ah Worth watching, but I was more lukewarm on it coming back is what I'll say. But yeah listen to the episode. You'll hear us tear through it. And also, actually, i on that same podcast went through all of the episodes of Cabinet of Curiosities like for Halloween.
01:29:08
Speaker
So if you guys, you know, want to listen to that, it's a whole like three and a half hour long podcast if you need that. um And ah in films we trust, I'm going through the films of Larry Pheasanton with those guys. Last episode's coming soon.
01:29:22
Speaker
But yeah, that's about it. And also, of course, my Twitter, Oral Rolla Tony. then Yeah. That's about it. Yeah, you can follow me at the Doug Files. ah That's also my YouTube. I've been bad about up updating that on there. Maybe I'll i'll be better about it. ah And then also, ah I've been on my friend's stream, Unsourced Wall Radio. Tony has also been on there. I assume you're also going to be joined. I don't know when we're starting. We're going to be covering the Scream movies soon. and I think against our will, the show because he said that we have to do it all in release order. i don't I'm going to try and get out of watching the show. I don't want to watch three seasons of that.
01:30:06
Speaker
Unless it's good. I mean, maybe it's good. I just really like the fact that, like, you and I, Doug, had a conversation about how little we cared about the Scream franchise, and then, like, two days later, he's like, hey, you guys want to do a podcast on the Scream franchise? You're like, why not? but Yeah. I mean, I really, really like four out of six of the movies released. Well, four and a half. or was some stuff on i could fight but ah yeah so I only like two screen movies. like I am not a fan all, so we'll see.
01:30:35
Speaker
Yeah, so that that should that should be a fun time. Look out for that. And then I think all the previous streams are are up on there on on the YouTube for it. um Yeah, and that's all I got. So guys, to have a good one. Stay empty.
01:30:49
Speaker
Thanks for having me on. Yeah, of course.