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The Leftovers Season 1
44 Plays15 days ago
ANOTHER show on the These Guys Got Juice feed?? The world must be ending or something. Not quite but close enough - Doug and Tony are covering the increasingly prescient Lindelof HBO show and discuss how the show tackles matters of faith, grief, the meaning we assign to that, and everything in between.
Also, spoilers from the very top of the episode (seriously just go watch it)
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Transcript
Patton Oswalt's Acting and Career Evolution
00:00:26
Speaker
like some kind of put it to Amy, man. One is the loneliest number, like characters from, from leftovers. And and then, and then, and then to zoom in, to zoom in on it, but it did happen.
00:00:39
Speaker
We just got like a really detailed narration for the first 15 minutes. And it was just, we're following Patton Oswalt and as he loses his child at the laundromat. I'd be on board for that. I,
00:00:50
Speaker
Pat Oswalt is interesting because he doesn't do anything I care about now, but could. He has like a fun.
00:01:01
Speaker
i've I mean, I've seen great performance. Like him in Young Adult, he's fantastic and stuff like that. So like if you put him in the hands of like some kind of like left or like yeah there's definitely like an Emmy nominated performance in him if you give him the right material, like in a drama.
00:01:18
Speaker
He did that movie recently-ish called like I Love My Dad that he was quite good in. That was a crazy movie. I didn't see but I heard the like story because it was like kind of a true story or something about a guy catfishing his son. and the And the guy who plays the son in the movie is the writer-director, and like the story is based on his real life.
00:01:38
Speaker
So it's like there's a really yeah interesting way that that all bleeds together in that way. ah But the another movie, just going on this Patton Oswalt tangent further, because ah he did a movie called Big Fan back in like 2011.
00:01:52
Speaker
and Oh, I remember that coming out, but I didn't see it very good movie. Like, I was like i think there there there are a lot of people who compared it to The Wrestler when it came out.
00:02:05
Speaker
and And I would say that's not a far-off comparison in, that and like, what realm it was made in. But also what I'm trying to get at here is that, like, Patton Oswalt in the late 2000s, early 2010s, I felt was a far more exciting, you know, fresh, like he's he's a new talent in comedy.
00:02:23
Speaker
He's a little more biting, but he's kind of fallen into this kind of nerd and like hyper lib ah persona. Yeah. and Yeah. like Like, I'd say like 2012 onward, that has felt very stagnant, felt very safe. And I wish that Patton Oswalt could go to this more daring spot that he used to be in.
00:02:44
Speaker
And I know it's there because sometimes he pops off. Sometimes he's still very funny, has great takes. But most of the time, like Veep was maybe the last time I saw him do that. Yeah. I'm just just like scrolling through his IMDB.
00:02:57
Speaker
No, he is totally. But get what you say that he's like, just do it. He's playing it safe. Like, cause he has a brand and that fan base of like, just like all of culture now just Kurt caters to nerd them. So that's like,
00:03:10
Speaker
I mean, that was like fortuitous time. Like if you're that guy and you grew up being an uncool nerd and now nerd shit is cool, like you cash in. That's like that's the move. which Which is a shame because he wrote this book called Silver Screen Fiend. that I would highly recommend for people because it's about movies. And it's about this period in his life where like his comedy career wasn't working really well.
00:03:35
Speaker
And he's talking he's talking about how he filled the void with movies and how it was self-destructive. The whole book is about like ah quality over quantity in the sense that, you know, you don't need to be filling up your schedule watching movies all the time.
00:03:48
Speaker
It's more about like how you experience life. And then to find that, you know, after he writes this book, Achieves success in other
'The Leftovers': Soundtrack and Emotional Impact
00:03:57
Speaker
fields. And then he kind of comes back around to that persona of being the media consuming kind of. Right. ah it Like it is a little disappointing to see as somebody who was a you know, early adopter of Oswald.
00:04:09
Speaker
That sounds like a prescient book that like I feel like a lot of letterbox people should read that. I highly recommend it. And it's very funny, too. Like it the way it's the way it's drawn it out. It's very quick, easy read.
00:04:21
Speaker
He's a funny guy. ah Yeah. So it's a shame we lost him during the departure. I want to bring up I would have bring up a canonical list of because they when they list off like the celebrities, I know it's like the Pope and the obviously obviously.
00:04:37
Speaker
like gary but one of them
00:04:42
Speaker
They didn't, they don't go as, oh, Shaquille O'Neal, ah John Mellencamp, Condoleezza Rice, ah Adam Sandler. awesome Vladimir Putin.
00:04:56
Speaker
Obviously. See, there should be, this is why Lindelof needs to, like, i ah you know, some things should be left alone. And, like, if you have a perfect story, like, leave it be. But come back, do Leftovers the International. Like, do other countries. Like, where were you, like, let's do a couple episodes in Russia.
00:05:13
Speaker
Like, what's happened what would that do when, when, uh... coon got poofed like and and the pope getting vanished is kind of a thing that is yadded yadded over because okay for i guess i'll quickly show this is uh these guys choose the show we just got in this is these guys got juice stuck here tony we're talking the leftovers uh there's there's some some take take out leftover in my fridge and we're eating we're eating the leftovers that were in there um and and it
00:05:45
Speaker
Before they become holdovers. you know Once it gets that point, it's too far. can't eat that mold growing on it.
00:05:53
Speaker
Yeah, that's that's next month. That's that's holdovers month is next month. This actually is the good month to be doing leftovers because I was remembering when I like just hearing the score for this show, like it conjures emotion. Like it's just like a very emotional watch.
00:06:08
Speaker
And there is a period like after i the original run of when it aired and that I would just listen to ah the the song that they kind of use, like they change themes every season, but the one that they use is like the main like emotional theme, like is like, what like they use it in like the finale when Kevin's like rescuing his daughter and and stuff like that, that that's, it's called November by Max Richter, which is like a piece that he composed even before the show. So like he he made new music for the show, but then the the fact that that works so perfectly as like, you can like plug that into like,
00:06:41
Speaker
any like powerful moment. And then I just become a ah puddle of goo. I'm just like, yeah. Persevation of the human spirit.
00:06:53
Speaker
This is a great way to answer this conversation because if separate anything at the leftovers, I think that the show is hilariously uneven in the soundtrack department. you There are some because with the score, it's fantastic. Every time there's this, there's this recurring track that also happens whenever there's like a surreal moment. moment Yeah. Yeah.
00:07:13
Speaker
Evan off guard and what's interesting about that theme is it is it lulls you into a lullaby like it's very like sleepy there's a dread to it and it allows for the show to be very consumable in that sense it keeps you in this like dark blanket of depression which is awesome but then when you get moments like Kevin Garvey cleaning up his house set to Where Is My Mind by the Pixies. Like there there are moments that are just like really, you know, they like they they hit you in the face. No subtlety where the lyrics are, you know, on the page for you to just read.
00:07:48
Speaker
i feel like... like lyndelof like after loss like there's no one to stop him really in that department so like we see it in this but i feel like in watchman he's really doing that shit like like and sometimes in a way where it like circles back around to being brilliant because i think in the end of one episode like they start playing beastie boy's egg man like what the fuck does this have to do it's just like regina king looking off at something ominous and an egg man starts playing like what and then you get to the finale where it's like yeah dr manhattan's powers were put in this egg i'm like you fucker
00:08:24
Speaker
yeah yeah this This is also just a great way for me to say, like, why I'm watching it right now, because, like, I i i have been recommended this show countless times, I believe. Even on the, like, during, I'm trying, like, I feel like certain episodes, maybe, like, some of our post-apocalyptic, like, ah things we've covered or something, like I invoked it or something like that. Yeah.
00:08:46
Speaker
i've I definitely have memories of you saying to watch this. And I've i've had so many people tell me that I would like this. And I started watching ah the new Vince Gilligan show, The Plurbious. I'm loving that show.
00:08:58
Speaker
And great when I got to the end of episode two of that, I was just like, you know what? Like this feels like it's in the same realm as Leftover. so i want to just dive in the Leftovers. And the thing that no one told me about Leftovers when i i was being recommended to the show most of the thing I would be here all the time was this show is devastating. It's going to destroy you. It's so sad.
00:09:18
Speaker
I didn't know how funny it was. It's very funny. Yeah. And and i I had a real hoot and a holler watching this season of television. People like were warning me when i posted online. I was like, oh I'm watching this show.
00:09:32
Speaker
Everyone's like, you're to have to like get through the first season to get to the good stuff. I had a blast. my Yeah, I disagree. I i think, like, it and we we'll focus on the the the first season in in this episode. I mean, like, i you know, like, I don't know how far you are. like Some of that might might come up and in other season stuff. But...
00:09:51
Speaker
i i I don't... On this rewatch, I definitely... I already liked the first season before my first watch through. And for the longest time, that was, like, all there was because I felt like there was, like, somewhat of
Exploring Characters and Morality in 'The Leftovers'
00:10:03
Speaker
a gap. It was, like, a year and a half or something in between, like, seasons one and two. And it, like, wasn't... They weren't even clear if it had been renewed or not. And and and to my... I never read the book, but I think...
00:10:13
Speaker
the whole book is like, there's pretty much the first season. So it's like they had finished the story of the book and some people like, oh, it's just going to be a miniseries, which that is a full story if that it ends just there. that That is like, there is an emotional climax there, which yeah I, you know, I'm moved by, but I'm glad so glad that they, know,
00:10:33
Speaker
iterated upon that and kept going because then they just start just building upon it in in the in the best ways. But I don't see as season one is something to get through. it In fact, there's like a charm to it that it just by its setting, like you're we're in like small town, like this is supposed to be like ah like Northern New York or something like, like the suburbs of, of Northern New York, Mapleton, i think the town's called. And, and like that town, I mean, we're in like a town, ah a different town in season two. And then season three has a different location, but like, there's something, there's a charm to Mapleton in that specific story. And the fact that this is, this is these characters home. So that's like our ground.
00:11:14
Speaker
ah We're hitting the ground from seeing different, Their idea of home has been inverted and subverted in this like new world. And I feel like you need that like before you start going to like I love the you know directions other seasons go in like the locations that we go to. But like this this setting has has a charm all of its own.
00:11:36
Speaker
Well, I wanted to say just to get it out of the way, I am not caught up in further seasons. The the farthest I've gone is season two, episode three. And because like I knew this podcast was coming, if if this podcast wasn't happening, I probably would have finished through season two by now. But I wanted to have this kind of fresh perspective of just one contained season. Right. I appreciate that because, yeah, because there's the wild stuff, out yeah you would probably be really itching to talk about the stuff in season You'll know what I mean when you get to it. I imagine. And and honestly, I can see where the – even from season one, I can see where some of the dominoes are being set.
00:12:12
Speaker
But to kind of get back to what you were saying about the book and how ah it was kind of just that self-contained narrative – Yeah, by the end of the season of television, like, that could have been it, and I would have been fine with it because it felt like it answered enough of the questions that I had while still leaving enough to where they could be opaque in those ways.
00:12:30
Speaker
And also, I can see where they're building things out, etc. the The only thing that I feel like is clawing at me by the end of the season is Ann Dowd's character because it just takes such a left turn with where she goes.
00:12:45
Speaker
Yeah. get to like a bigger thing just because we're at the start of this conversation. the What's interesting about this show is that it's a morality play, but it exists within the world where morality no longer exists.
00:12:58
Speaker
This is a show about like people trying to find meaning or the difference between right or wrong. And no matter which direction they go in, whether it's through a theological standpoint, through a governmental standpoint, or even just a familial standpoint, there is a big ennui that sits with everyone where they they can't just like sit with rest or peace.
00:13:23
Speaker
Something is missing. The world has lost a considerable amount of people. And it's interesting that the amount of people who have disappeared in this ah universe.
00:13:35
Speaker
It's not like a crazy amount of people, but it's enough. It's in the millions. Yeah, exact millions per country. Right. It's like, pretty that's that is a sizable chunk but the way in which the film the show can kind of take these steps back and be like there are people who are more affected than others the ways in which uh even the people who would seemingly not be affected at all uh still feel something uh and the ways that they chase stuff that will bring new meaning to their lives despite knowing deep down this event confirms something much greater than everyone
00:14:14
Speaker
So, yeah, like it's just a really fascinating way of trying to tackle this. ah What is right and what is wrong in this kind of scenario? Yeah, I want to build off what you just said, like that this event confirms something like bigger than everyone, because I think one of the most interesting choices ah is one, it's set like almost three years after the departure. So we're not in the immediate aftermath.
00:14:39
Speaker
where things may have been a like a little more, I mean, we're still chaotic where we are when the story starts, but like in the immediate aftermath, that's a different story than where we are now, where it's like enough time has passed for people to conceivably try to like restart everything and, and try to regain some kind of normalcy. And I think that's like a great starting point for, for a lot of these characters.
00:15:02
Speaker
But then also think, I love the the idea that like all the world because they mentioned in the background. i just love the world building and in the show. But like when you see like there's these congressional hearings about like this investigation, the the panel of scientists trying to figure out what how the departure happened.
00:15:20
Speaker
And then also there's like they convened with all the world's religious leaders and the religious leader said this is, you know, like this is enough, you know, like that this is not the end times, which is interesting because like ah you might, you know, there's there's a part of me when I first I was like, well, why wouldn't they want this is like confirmation of everything they're preaching? Like, wouldn't they want that to be the case that this is that? But one, any institutional power is you want the status quo to be upheld. Like that's, that's like a number one priority end of the day. Like you can't, the church and or whatever, the government, nothing would function as it needs to if you don't maintain that. So that's like, that's their priority there.
00:16:06
Speaker
But then even like knowing like, yeah, the Pope got departed. Even even then they're going to be like, no, no, no. There's no like a religious significance to this. Like that this is just like an inexplicable weird thing. You're like, are you sure?
00:16:19
Speaker
Like, it's like, you're not even, you don't think it's weird that like the Pope, whatever. But it does seem random, which I do like that. Because like, even with the people who've been taken, it's not like proportional. It's sp spread like some people have lost no one. Some people have lost everything.
00:16:36
Speaker
it it doesn't. and And we, you know, see through certain characters, like there's this whole department of sudden departures, like the whole idea of a questionnaire of all these questions. Like, there doesn't really seem to be a common thread about who's gone. It's just.
00:16:49
Speaker
ever They're gone. Well, it's even pointed out later in the season that that questionnaire is more in place. So it's more challenging for these people who are trying to collect insurance. Right. So like going to something you were just saying is that these religious leaders, even if this was something that matched their rapture story, ah they in some ways see that because they are...
00:17:12
Speaker
Still here that they need also like uphold that normalcy, like you said. Right. Because I would have been taken because I'm pious and holy. And I think that's a great way to hone in on. We don't need to go character by character, but I do want to time itching. The best way it.
00:17:31
Speaker
Yeah, there's so many intersecting things, but I guess I want to start with Matt because I think yeah his his episode was – I was into it from the first episode, like from Go, like from the first scene.
00:17:44
Speaker
Like that first scene is so great. Like in the fact that – without really knowing anything about the show, I was like, – Like, that's these aren't even really the characters we're following in that scene. But then how that woman loops back in through the story.
00:17:55
Speaker
And then we even know through the Flash and Matt's episode that he was there. Like, the car that gets crashed into, that was him. Like, I love all that shit. So, like, he and he's a character who is...
00:18:07
Speaker
vehemently like trying to reinforce the idea that this was not the rapture that so these people were were not good people who were taken they were flawed and like he has these flyers he puts out with all it's just basically like a ah gossip rag but like but they're like hit pieces of like saying like oh this pharmacist she stole and sold drugs and all this stuff so people are reasonably provoked and upset by this like someone just comes up to him during service and like beats the shit out of it because like yeah you don't want to remember your loved one that way especially like you know someone refers to it as like like an ambiguous loss but everyone especially three years on it's like they're not coming back so this is like you want to remember them in a positive light and this guy's going around being like no they weren't good and it's like does it
00:18:57
Speaker
Is that just his fate? Like it is part of his fate, but it's also like you said that he needs to reaffirm to himself of like, well, I would have if this was the rapture, I would have been taken because I'm a good person.
00:19:09
Speaker
So Matt is the living embodiment of the guy who gets a rush out of telling people that ah John Lennon beat his girlfriend meme because that's all he's doing with that flyer system. Like, did you know Gandhi was problematic?
00:19:23
Speaker
Did you know that? Yeah. He is like a fucking Twitter post so online, like in the real world. And the the problem with that is that even though his heart is in the right place, theoretically, by being a man of the Lord and and trying to imp pass the teachings, we see it ourselves. That church is pretty barren. His methods of trying to get people on his side is not very effective. And it's because he is using shame and guilt as this like motivating factor.
00:19:50
Speaker
And at this point, like it's very Catholic of him, even though he's not Catholic. Yeah. and And something to get back to what you were saying about the time jump, how we go three years in the future.
00:20:01
Speaker
I like this beat because in lesser stories, that's like a cheat where you get away from having to do the hard work. And explain like, oh, the difficult questions of logistics and stuff. They fill that stuff in. Like, you know, like how a lot of the how did they do this and that be after people vanish? Like they they answer a sizable amount. So it's not like they're cheating.
00:20:22
Speaker
And also because of this nonlinear storytelling, they can like go back and fill in gaps. Even like when we're introduced to Kevin, it's a reveal that none of his family was departed. Like you just assumed that like somebody must have left and then it's revealed what happens later.
00:20:36
Speaker
But the the Matt character is so interesting to consider in comparison to the kind of – nihilist the The Nihilists from the Big Lebowski Chainsmoke? The Guilty Remnant, because they're also a provocation. Like, I like the all these different faith systems we see. Like, you know, Matt's like your traditional, like, Christian viewpoint. And then you have, like you said, the Nihilists with the Guilty Remnant. And then there we'll get to some of the other viewpoints with other characters. But, like, they're a good contrast there because they're both...
00:21:08
Speaker
trying to get a rise out of people, even if Matt says that that's not what he's doing. But he knows that people are going to come and hit him. oh yeah. and And he deserves it. And he a part of him knows that he does deserves it.
00:21:19
Speaker
And then when in that episode, ah when he's, you know, trying to get the money to save the church ah and he's given all of these chances as if they're divinely ordained to him, ah it very...
00:21:31
Speaker
and clearly illustrates how he perceives the world, how even though he's been given massive tragedies, including the one that he suffered on departure day with his wife becoming paralyzed, ah even in those moments, like he, you know, goes to the casino, he wins a bunch of money.
00:21:48
Speaker
Awesome. Great. Gets in the car, immediately gets mugged and he ends up killed, like beating a guy nearly to death. Yeah, like he leaves and it's ah unclear the status of that guy, but the girlfriend is horrified and it see he beats the fuck out of this He smashed that guy's face into the pavement and blood is like coming back onto him. You know, you know that that is not a good situation in that way. But the the the way that the arc in that episode rounds out the idea that like he's he goes out to protect the ah guilty remnant, you said their names are Yeah, yeah. puts them as the white clothes.
00:22:24
Speaker
ah Or I also like how in universe there's like their own like slang form. Like people call him the Moonies. I don't I don't in they don't even explain. I mean, like the they wear white with a moon.
00:22:35
Speaker
Yeah. yeah And also, I think that Mooney has some kind of like cult slash. Yeah. religious connotation to it. I want to look that up. I think that that term is associated with religion in some way.
00:22:48
Speaker
ah But to get to that point, okay yeah he gets out of his car and he helps those guilty remnant people, but then he gets hit by a rock by somebody who hates the guilty remnant. Despite him himself also hating the guilty remnant, he was doing the pious thing. He was doing the honorable thing. And for that, he is rewarded by not being able to buy the church and the guilty remnant to take over.
00:23:09
Speaker
as if, like, the universe is telling him that the guilty remnant is just in being able to do these things. But what does Matt do? He ah sees it as a challenge, and he decides to continue to do what he's doing just in a smaller venue.
00:23:22
Speaker
so And then he also takes on the personal mission of, like, I want to save the guilty remnant like that, that they're like, he he's making targeted things about them then like, not just like of about the part individual. He's like, no, I need to say, I need to, he, he he says that they're like, they're dead.
00:23:40
Speaker
They're already dead. i I want to bring them back to life. ah And so, yeah, that, that's easy. He's making like flyers and revealing all these personal details about that. And yeah Which, ah ah like you said, like on paper, a noble cause, but it is self-serving. Like there is.
00:23:59
Speaker
ah Yeah, I mean. Yeah, that that's all i'll say about now, because there's a moment that I'll i'll say for another character that that I feel like ties and into that. Well, to build off of that, he wants to be a community leader. He wants to be the person that everyone kind of is around. He he carries himself with a lot of like seeming like he he you could he gives off that aura that he deserves respect. But us as an audience, we know that he's a little more slimy than that, just based on the way the actor is performing.
00:24:28
Speaker
By the way, the the actor who performs for Matt, I forget his name, Chris Brackleson, he's he's probably one of the best performances the whole show. And the whole show is is top to bottom great performances. Like my my my parents my parents walk in, they've seen a ah chunk of like what the show during the rewatch. And my dad was like, yeah, that this he didn't know that this had already aired. He's like, oh, so could this actor actress be up for emmy nomination? I'm like, no, it already already passed. None of them got anything, rudely. Yeah.
00:24:58
Speaker
None of them got anything. This is one of those HBO things like The Wire where it's like, nope, it was too good. There were people that would be like, no, fuck that.
00:25:08
Speaker
I mean, I guess maybe in some ways, like i it's not that Watchmen doesn't have its own merits, but is like is there some residual guilt to when Watchmen like won some some awards of like, we be fucked up. We should given the leftover something.
00:25:22
Speaker
I think there was also like a weird like like when I remember when the show was coming out, it didn't have a lot of hype like people. People were fans of it. There were definitely people who like knew that it was great as it was airing, but I felt that it didn't have the same kind of groundswell that a lot of like great TV has. Like it took a while for Breaking Bad even to like get its footing.
00:25:42
Speaker
And that was really Netflix that pushed it over the edge of like it it becoming really available that by the seat by the time the new season after it had aired on Netflix like that was like when it had the highest ratings and it was at like like mass appeal.
00:25:56
Speaker
the The thing is, is that I feel like if maybe Leftovers went on for like four or five seasons, then maybe it would have been heralded in its time. But because it had that kind of weird gaps between seasons, I could totally see why it was ignored.
00:26:09
Speaker
To get back to what we were talking about with Matt and all that stuff, um the thing about him going after the Guilty Remnant people after that event— um Honestly, yeah like if there were ever targets to, you know, harass with your shitposting IRL, I think the guilty remnant are kind of deserving almost of that kind of treatment.
00:26:29
Speaker
Because they're the trolls, the you know, so like if you troll the trolls, then who trolls the trollman, you know? yeah Yeah, exactly. ah and And at least at that point, his anger is directional in a way that's more ah like it's actionable.
00:26:48
Speaker
And it's a problem because it does ah accelerate the environment that's around the guilty remnant. You can tell that there is this unrest that's building. And interesting thing about this season of television is that ah you're constantly put in this position from the cop's perspective and Kevin darby ah Garvey, where you're assuming that the remnant, a guilty remnant going to attack the town or they're going to be the people to inflict violence. But it's the other way around. It's actually the town that's so aggressively pushing back against them to where they are the ones that go to blows.
00:27:21
Speaker
And it it goes ties into what were saying about how the television incorporates into this universe. yeah Every time we see the news, it's showing us these, you know, another cult group has cropped up. and That's like all the background things is like the ATF has attacked. And it's not usually like Guilty Remnant or, you know, we'll get to like Holy Wayne and stuff. Like we do hear there's there's escalations with with that with them in terms of like the federal response. But they're po hitting cult stuff all over. Like that this is like...
00:27:52
Speaker
um widespread phenomenon, which makes sense. I mean, in the face of something like this, even especially when you have the world's religions being like, nah, that one's not on us. People are going to want answers. like And so they're going to turn to like very unconventional places.
00:28:08
Speaker
And i I don't necessarily blame them, especially in the ways in which these different cult groups create their identities. Like we'll get into the guilty remnant soon where therere their ideology makes sense within the framework of the world in which the story takes place.
00:28:25
Speaker
That being said, cults, you know, all these things, these are insecurities and these are people who are fighting for a place or a sense of belonging. And you can tell that in the absence of these literal people, ah there are people who are trying to take advantage of that and fill in that void. But then on the flip side, as we're seeing the government that's cracking down on these cult groups, again, tying into that, you know, whole religious groups claiming no partisanship in this country,
00:28:55
Speaker
Yeah. rapture thing you know this i yeah yeah that ah you know the the government's handling it in this way in my mind i'm thinking to myself that the government is agitating these ah groups into becoming violent or they're just straight not giving them their rights because they are so afraid of unrest they're afraid Oh, absolutely.
00:29:14
Speaker
Some shutting down because of these people. And especially when you have somebody like the guilty remnant, right, where like nihilists like that can ruin a society, at least from the perspective of, you know, more right wing politicians.
00:29:29
Speaker
Well, because if if the ah the levers of power in in these institutions, their goal is maintain the status quo, the people who want to push everything towards to like, no, we should be going ape shit right now. Like that's kind of their whole mission statement is like, why aren't we doing Mad Max shit right now? The world ended like they're they're like, wake up, you know, like that, that, that, that's, that's their thing. They're trying to, uh,
00:29:55
Speaker
to to do. ah But I think this would be a cool segue to when you're bringing up the the federal response and in in but provocation of these groups. i want to slide over to to Tom, the you know Kevin's son, because a Holy Wayne storyline was something that I kind of remembered in pieces, but why going through, I'm like, oh, wow. Like, I forgot, like, all the individual beats of this.
00:30:20
Speaker
ah Yeah, I just didn't remember much about Tom as a character other than the one the one moment, like, one of my favorite, like, cut twos of, like, I think it's the congressman when, you know, he he brings to Holy Wayne's ranch is, like...
00:30:34
Speaker
ah So like what happened to you or like, why why did you end up here? Or no, no, he said he was in college. He's like, why did you drop out? And then you cut to he sees like a couple holding hands jump off of a roof and then land on a car and then quick cut back to like, I didn't see the point.
00:30:51
Speaker
And it's like, in do you know, you don't get further elaboration on what that was, but you can imagine like in the immediate chaos of like that happening. People were like, this is the end, you know, and then there'd be so much like be like looting riots and shit. And yeah, people killing themselves. Like, because like if you thought that was the end of the world, like let's let's fucking get out of here.
00:31:10
Speaker
I'm glad that we're starting with Kevin's son. What was his name again? Like Tommy or something? Yeah, Tom. Yeah, Tom. So the ah Tom is a great character to kind of go into the like core cast with because he's ah the most gullible and the most open to there being a higher power and trying to find like some kind of storybook answer to things.
00:31:34
Speaker
he's He's a very conspiratorial minded person as well. And he's unaware of how selfish he is. And that's a ah recurring theme with all of these characters, even if they think that they're doing things for moral reasons, they are a lot more reactionary than they even know.
00:31:50
Speaker
But the whole introduction to this whole Holy Wayne situation You know, like, it's just a guy on a ranch with a bunch of women who, you know, he's just having sex with. He's knocking them up. but But then he also says he can hug your pain away, which which is like the show, will a lot of a lot of things will like that you there are answers to some mysteries, but it does leave something like because, yes, like we hear the the briefing when the ATF is getting ready to raid his ranch.
00:32:20
Speaker
It's like Holy Wayne's like a fucking sex offender. youre Like he's knocking up these underage like Asian girls. But he could also be magic. Like the show doesn't ah definitively say that his hugs aren't magic.
00:32:31
Speaker
But also someone says, I'm going to hug your pain away. And you're already primed for that, especially in a world where you're hurting and carrying all this this this shit. The hug would feel pretty good regardless. Like, it's like he doesn't have to actually be magic. He could just be good at reading people like you like, you know, in a kind of nightmare alleyway because he does like knowingly like latch on to certain things on people. Like, just like he just looks in their eyes and and he's able to something.
00:32:56
Speaker
quasi-specific stuff that like is is on the money or at least eliciting reaction from them but then even he at the end is like think i may be a full of shit or so or whatever he says to kevin wait when kevin finds him but but it's you know that they don't they don't fully answer that thing of like he could his hugs could be magic think things don't work the same anymore so maybe some people have magic hugs Well, I think it's great to go down this rabbit hole of like, is he magic or not? ah But before I do that, I just want to point out the name. Holy Wayne, you know, with all of the things that we've said, this is a hilarious character and set up in my mind. Like like ah whenever Holy Wayne or we're we're catching up with what's going on there, even though like the details are gross, you know, like a literal like harem of women.
00:33:45
Speaker
Yeah. He's got at the w ranch. That's terrifying. But it's the fact that it's speaking of Gandhi.
00:33:53
Speaker
Got him. The interesting thing to kind of like interrogate Holy Wayne's effectiveness is actually to go in through Carrie Coon's character because we see her. She gets the hug from Wayne. But the problem is, is that like that it's sold on this idea that it takes the pain away.
00:34:10
Speaker
But by the end of the season, I don't think that she's gotten her pain taken away. it was a it it would It was, it was, temporarily seemed to have done something. it Like is some some kind of. like so Yeah, she got a nice hug.
00:34:26
Speaker
That's what it is. Yeah, no, no, yeah. And i think I think that's, but again, I'm still going back to like. That doesn't be, he still could be magic, and know, even if it's not like the hugs themselves, because like he, the like all these, there's all these recurring like visions and things of certain characters. And we, when he says he's seen his own death, we don't know what he actually saw. So he could just be saying that and it's whatever,
00:34:51
Speaker
white We don't know. Like it's it's it's a like a lot like the departure itself. We don't really have the means to definitively answer that. And neither does Wade. Like he could be a guy experience like he is a charlatan and a sex offender who has built this harem and is profiting off off of this thing. But he could be tapped into something. Yeah.
00:35:12
Speaker
Charging people $1,000 on PayPal each hug. which i love that the PayPal is ready to go. was like, who you we can make you a count if you don't have one yeah but very Very accommodating in that in that ramshackle room.
00:35:28
Speaker
Even on the run, he has means to set. And I do like that, that we don't even learn much about the other people like that he has on staff. But there's just like this older businesswoman who's driving him around to like when he gives Tom the the cell phone and stuff. and you're like, what's her deal? Why'd she agree to it? she like She looks professional. Like she could be like a lawyer or something. Like like why she, what does she get it out of working for Wayne? Like you could imagine at some point he did hug all of these people and that like converted them because that's what happens when Tom meets like the other, hit the bizarro him. Like I love that episode when he finds the other guy with another of ah pregnant woman.
00:36:08
Speaker
But Tom never took that that pill. yeah he He intentionally refused it. And, you know, with to Wayne's, Wayne's like – He's like a little perplexed, but he's like charmed by it to a little bit of like, oh, so you just want to just carry the suffering. Like he kind of like respects that a little bit. But it's like, yeah, that does say something about someone's like you believe in this, but you also will not partake of the benefit of the main benefit of it would be the magic hug and you don't want it Well, you say benefit of it, but then also you're asking this question about why these people are staying. And I do believe that like Holy Wayne in many ways is using like sexuality and, you know, being with these people in intimate ways as a way to keep them on. Like like the hug itself, but when he he's, you know, interested in hugging with Tom.
00:36:58
Speaker
He is unbuttoning. It's very like sexual. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and and the thing the thing is, is it speaks to what motivates Tom. He is somebody who is he joined the cult not to be manipulated by this person, but rather just to believe in the stories he was telling. Like he he was there for the specific answer. That was it.
00:37:19
Speaker
Mm I think that that's fascinating, too, as we go through his arc, as he's on the run waiting for him on the phone, because it becomes this like Job scenario where he's like constantly wondering, like, am i supposed to be doing these? There's these crisis of faith.
00:37:33
Speaker
But then similar to Matt and the ways that he's getting these these moments that could be read as divine intervention, intervention the things just coming at the right moment. We he could. like like Like when he gets the phone call, he's expecting Wayne. He's about to he maybe get on the bus and like leave all that behind.
00:37:51
Speaker
And then it's just like an ad for like like like departure insurance or so some kind of departure like ever ad advertisement or something. And he starts cracking up. And he's like, that's a good one. Like like that that this has been sent to him specifically. Not that this was just random. Yeah.
00:38:08
Speaker
Yeah, it's like probably just you your numbers on a list of numbers and they sent you a thing. But he's like taking that as a he stays when he when he hears that. it's It's the most interesting aspect of that beat when you get that moment that he actually the the bus drives past and he's still sitting there in the bus stop.
00:38:27
Speaker
You understand it because even though we see that as a comedic beat to him, he interprets that with far greater meaning. and And that it's just the nature of his desire to just believe in something.
00:38:40
Speaker
And the fact that just that faith just slowly withers away as time goes along. And as he meets that bizarro version of himself as fear. reference yeah kind of looks like like a crackhead macaulay culkin a little bit or he looks he looks culkin adjacent a little bit like uh i don't i don't believe it's any call unless there's a fork culkin i don't know about uh you know more that are just not on camera i do i do believe that there are more culkins laying or around they're out there they're everywhere uh yeah but but i i also like that that that this guy is like like yeah he's bizarro tom but he's like snoring coke and shit like you you can imagine they burn through their money quicker maybe for because he's been living kind of hard and and stuff because like that's like the reason he meets him is like wayne calls him like oh how much money you have left six thousand i like wayne's response he's like he's like shit or something like he's like doing the math of like
00:39:37
Speaker
Yeah. OK. It's like ah and so take half of that and then leave it under this this mailbox. And so he waits and sees who gets it. And he's expecting to like find Wayne and demand answers like he wants to go to God and demand answers like, hey, tell me, like, what's what's the deal? You know, ah but instead he just finds a cokehead and another pregnant Asian girl.
00:39:59
Speaker
and And again, what the taking the pain away aspect, right? A, Cokehead doesn't really read to me a guy who's had their pain taken away. i feel like he he has. He did say he hugged him, though, right? I think he does because he asked he has he asked him but he asked him about it, and he's like, oh, he was incredible.
00:40:20
Speaker
you know, but he's also high on Coke right then as he's saying that. yeah. You're like, a what i need would I need to still do drugs if I had my pain like actually taken away? like Maybe you just just love it as an aesthetic. you know Maybe it's just about that lifestyle.
00:40:36
Speaker
And then the second thing is all of these brides. I'm calling them brides for lack of a better term. Yeah. Or be called in the cult realm, right? But for them, ah if their pain was taken away.
00:40:50
Speaker
Right. And they believed in what ah Wayne was giving them the entire time. Why are they having crises of faith? Why are they getting so like violently aggressive, especially to Tom in that scene? you know Well, it's specifically because he told each of them that they were special. You know, that's the that's the thing. And it's like people don't just want meaning. They want their pain, their experience, their pain.
00:41:17
Speaker
point of view to be relevant to that, that to matter, they need to matter. And so he gives them that he gives these women, he's, he's impregnated them. He's using them sexually, but then he's like, your baby's like the important, your baby's the bridge or something, whatever he says, like, like that, this is like some prophesied thing that needs to happen. So it's not just like, Oh, this creepy older guy knocked me up.
00:41:40
Speaker
It's like, no, this is like, I'm doing something. This is going to like benefit the world. And I think it's telling that like as soon as that facade is stripped away, ah Christine, I believe, is the one that Tom's protecting.
00:41:53
Speaker
She just leaves the baby, you know, like that. And and then Tom's trying to reassure like we don't need him, you know, because there's a whole backstory with Tom about how his actual biological father walked out, you know, that.
00:42:04
Speaker
And then Kevin's like the dad who stepped up and, and, but, but was there for pretty much most of his life. Like he didn't really know his biological dad. So that I think there's, he's carrying that with him too. Of like, he is already losing, losing and lost his faith in Wayne, but he's like, he's not going to abandon that kid or Christine. Like he was determined to, to see that through with them. He's like, we don't need Wayne, but Christine did need Wayne.
00:42:29
Speaker
Like, she's like, uh, actually that's what I was in it for. So I'm And then there's also this element where Tom kind of has a crush on the woman that he's taking. Right. ah And the there's this like beat where he wants to be seen as special in her eyes.
00:42:45
Speaker
He wants to be special seen as special in Wayne's eyes. And this we get introduced to Tom but what being driven home by Kevin after trying to like get into a fight with him. he He that's like one of the flashbacks. and He could he confronts his by his bio dad. And in seemingly this is a re recurring thing.
00:43:03
Speaker
And it seemed like that his dad like shoved it. Well, he according to him, he's like, I just shoved him, you know, and that but we know it was enough that the cops were called and he has some kind of bruise or something on on the back of his neck. So then, you know, Kevin, you know, goes up, which kind of remind of.
00:43:22
Speaker
That scene in, I feel like there's multiple scenes of Colin Farrell in season two, a true detective where he just goes and beats the shit out of ah of people at their house. the ke Kevin, Kevin, Kevin. Hey, I'm not saying like he's, you know, ACAB includes Kevin, Kevin Gar, you know, Carvey, but, uh,
00:43:37
Speaker
Yeah, but, you know, he's he's in his mind doing right by his son of like this guy laid hands on my son. And, you know, that's unacceptable. And but yeah, he also did that. Talk about Kevin Garvey.
00:43:51
Speaker
ah because got to talk about him. he um He's great. Before we continue, he has to be one of my new favorite television protagonists. I love Kevin Garvey. I think he's hilarious. He's up there. i mean, there's he contains multitudes. It's like the perfect formula of like...
00:44:11
Speaker
Because as it goes on, you know, all the weird, like, I would say outside of the departure, a majority of, like, the weird supernatural or potentially supernatural, is this in someone's head stuff, like, it's centered around Kevin, like, through through the...
00:44:29
Speaker
the The prism of like, is he experiencing some kind of psychosis? Is this like inherited mental illness or is he actually being shown something that that that's that's real because he's special.
00:44:42
Speaker
But it eschews a lot of like the chosen one tropes because, well, I mean, and and not just like, yeah, he refuses continually refuses to call like a lot of the these chosen ones ah ah do. But.
00:44:54
Speaker
He's just a fuck up. Like he's like a flawed, very sad and pathetic in a lot of ways guy. just love him. Like he's, he's great. Like ah he's very funny too. Like his response, like, yes, he does lose his cool and like, well, sometimes physically accost people or or yell and stuff. But ah also the other ways the where he responds, the slights are funny too. Cause like when Amy,
00:45:19
Speaker
is like trying to, is bringing up something that he doesn't want to talk about. he doesn't even answer a question. He's like, do you like staying here, Amy? She's like, yeah, I do. He's like, that's good. And then he just like goes upstairs.
00:45:34
Speaker
his His relationship with Amy, by the way, just we got to do like a whole 10 minutes on that. That was crazy. But there you go there. Well, it it was almost like I'm like American Beauty. Are we doing American Beauty right now?
00:45:45
Speaker
that But but all but but it's not Kevin Spacey. So it's a little it's it's it's still creepy. But there's also maybe a supernatural component, too. So I'm like, does that let him off the hook if she's like a supernatural? I don't know.
00:46:01
Speaker
it's it's It's also playing with, like, a central fear in his head because he's unaware of how real the dreams are to with, like, like what he actually feels or believes, right?
00:46:14
Speaker
So the fact that she in enters that dream and then, like, the next morning there's that, like... ah you said something to me. and And like, she interacted with him in his fugue states, like, like that she bandages hand and like remembers things that he doesn't like. There's the the only other beforehand, the characters that he interacted with in those like dream states where mystery men, like the, ah the, the dog shooting.
00:46:38
Speaker
I love that actor. Like he, he's just like, it seems like he's got like marbles in his mouth as he's talking. ah Michael Gaston. he's He's doing with like a – he's putting like his – like there's a bulge in one of his cheeks. Yeah.
00:46:55
Speaker
I could swear that it changes. like It like changes cheek. And we never see him like spit tobacco or something like that. He's like chewing that or something. so I'm like – what's going on with your mouth and i've seen that actor in other things he's not doing this is a specific choice for this character so it's not like that's just like how he talks or what he looks like no this is this is some character specific thing but that guy is an a total enigma like we don't at first we don't even know that he's real although i like that a couple episodes in we see him interact with other people in the town because even kevin's asking that question of like how real is this guy because he's like starting to question stuff of like
00:47:29
Speaker
When his, what's the one deputy, Dennis, is like, yeah, his truck is in your your driveway. We can just say we found it a couple houses down. He's like, why would we say that? He's like, it's not my truck. He's like, oh, yeah, yeah, of course. you know But then he's starting to question of like, am I fucking losing it? Is this guy real? But then no, other people like know him and interact with him.
00:47:50
Speaker
He shows up to town hall meetings and is, ah the the Gates thinks Kevin's trying to do at town hall meetings, rudely. but like yeah To kind of get back to like the idea of Kevin as a character, because this show, as we've illustrated with some of these other side characters like Tom and Matt, in a bit with the cult with the white clothing, the thing about Kevin is that he is being offered all of these narratives. He's being presented with like the ways in which people have started to cope with
00:48:23
Speaker
with ah this departure event. And for him, at all times, he's trying to return to some sense of normalcy without understanding that things cannot be returned to normalcy.
00:48:34
Speaker
And in that... Which is especially ironic knowing, like, when we finally get that flashback, he was considering leaving his family. He wanted out of that normalcy. Like, that that that that that was something that kind of terrified him and he fled from But now he's desperate for that. He wants... It's like he wants more than any...
00:48:54
Speaker
You know, like people telling him he's special. He shows, he's like, get that the fuck away from me. No. but but Throw on some handcuffs. Get the fuck out of here. Right. it Like yeah the way that he's always approaching it.
00:49:04
Speaker
the The thing is, is that he he is a pretty like bad cop all around. But the impression that he gives off to the people around him is that he's like the type where it's like, damn it. He gets results. Yeah. He he keeps he keeps the town safe.
00:49:18
Speaker
Not really. but but But at the same time, like, people keep underestimating him and he keeps pulling through. So then there's this, like, kind of backhand where they're just like, God damn it, Garvey. Like, we we don't really trust you, but we have to because you keep you keep doing things. Somehow you keep pulling through. even Even when it looks like you're about to get thrown away forever. Like, you somehow pull through.
00:49:41
Speaker
even even Even when we find out that we find you in the middle of the street with a bunch of dead dogs, you somehow pull through. Yeah. Which what a what a what what an ending to a pilot because we already like the way that that we already talked about the mystery man Michael Gaston and how you know like the first time we see him he just shoots a dog in the in the middle of the road when Kevin's on one of his jogs and and so he's carrying around this dead dog in his car he goes to the owner or uh.
00:50:09
Speaker
you know, he, there's an address on the collar and this woman's like, oh no, that was my husband's dog. He departed. And, and ah there's this whole idea of like these um animals that were owned by people that departed, like did they, what happened there? They just like became feral regressed or somehow. And then there's the, one of the throwaway lines by, by the twins that, that hang out with his daughter is like, yeah, that's going to happen to us. It's just happening in slow motion, you know, like this kind of,
00:50:38
Speaker
regression to a more ah primal state that that's like, yeah, that that's that that's for sure. That's what we're going to. And that kind of is what happens in the town. Like we do see that happen.
00:50:48
Speaker
Like, ah you know, just replace the deer with the guilty remnant and the the dogs with the people of Mapleton, you know, and that's they do that. Well, they say specifics specifically that the dogs that witnessed the blip, like when they like they saw that the people disappeared, that was the turning point that made them crazy.
00:51:07
Speaker
So then to relate that back to Kevin, like who saw someone, he was having sex with a random girl who d doesn't even know her name. Yeah. Hide someone and they disappeared. I feel like out of most people who experienced something on a departure day, he would be the closest to the dogs in that sense, where he was like so close to somebody that they're gone in a moment.
00:51:28
Speaker
And like you were saying before, this idea that like he didn't really even like this family life and he was one foot out the door already. That moment was the thing that made him flip back into everything matters. The family is the thing I need to protect.
00:51:43
Speaker
Yeah. ah and And also to go into this whole dog killing thing, how he's trying to uphold law and order, but his mind is fighting against him to the point where his internal idea of morality is coming to bare ways that he can't control despite his best best efforts.
00:52:04
Speaker
So even if there is this layer of us wondering if there's a layer of like – mysticism or powers or theology to him. I still think that there is enough plausible deniability where you're like, is this mental illness?
00:52:17
Speaker
Oh, you could read, and I feel like to the show's credit, like not to spoil anything, you can kind of keep that read through, even as progressively weirder things happen. You can just be like, well, There's a lot there even within lack of of like logical explanation that lot this is subject could be subjective. And in in these individual characters, my, you know, whenever something leaves it open to me, like I tend to lean towards it being real. I usually go with what explanation is more interesting. But in the case the leftovers, I feel like it lays like a secret third thing. It's like these aren't mutually exclusive.
00:52:55
Speaker
you know, there's like the world. Obviously, something beyond our comprehension did happen. So it's on the table that these these inexplicable supernatural events can occur. But also and people be going crazy. So like the bed that but that's not a mutually exclusive thing. Maybe his dad is actually talking to to something that people can't see.
00:53:17
Speaker
But he did could also if that was real and you were experiencing that. wouldn't you be losing your shit a little bit also? Like that's like, it's like both can be true.
00:53:28
Speaker
Well, it's like we see it time and time again with every character. It's like the answers themselves don't fix them. It's not like they make them easier despite that being their intended purposes.
00:53:39
Speaker
There is still so much pain and anguish that comes with these people just trying to believe in these things the way they do or, you know, ah the ways they make sense of these moments. Yeah. Right. Because like Kevin was to accept like, OK, this is all real. This is happening to me. I'm not crazy.
00:53:53
Speaker
That's not really a comforting thought because of what we're seeing and what he's seeing and not remembering and all that. was like, OK, if there is an actual supernatural component to that, that's terrifying. That's like not less scary than you it just being mental illness.
00:54:11
Speaker
And even if like either way you take it, no matter how you view it, I just think the idea of a guy who just like can't sleep because he's to keep being woken up in the night to kill dogs and yeah yeah no this around town is a really good bit. And I think that Justin Theroux is fantastic in this role because he's he's so straight and narrow.
00:54:32
Speaker
i I'm. It's kind of like a version of a werewolf story, you know, like that's like, like ah at at night you lose control. I mean, you know, those stories were sometimes metaphor for like alcoholism or rage, you know, disorders or so or whatever. But this is like he's well, he also drinks pretty. So alcoholic could definitely apply to Kevin's situation. Just ke low key one. It's not like that it's in front, but he is drinking all the time.
00:54:57
Speaker
and ah ah and and so And he's he's medicating, self-medicating, but ah that that he's someone who loses control. It's not every full moon, but it's kind of just like anytime he lays his head on a pillow, there's a chance that someone's going to get hurt or something crazy is going to happen.
00:55:13
Speaker
Mm-hmm. and And there's a layer to it that he feels personal guilt for it, but he keeps getting away with it as well. Like, like, it seems like he's always let off the hook and to and and there's a part of him that feels really unsettled by that aspect.
00:55:29
Speaker
Yeah. I just love the fact that Thoreau himself, ah he positions himself as like the do-gooder who who has a compass, but then the compass is just broken at all times. like And everything that he encounters challenges that compass, but he keeps following what should be sanity because it's the only thing that makes rational sense to him.
00:55:52
Speaker
And even if everything is telling you and screaming at you that that doesn't matter anymore, that that's not how things work anymore, that he wants to go back to that. He's so good at playing like lost in his eyes. Like he like he's just a great actor and and in in conveying all these things. But like in in his eyes, when you see that he's truly like scared of himself and like that, he's like does not know what's going on. Like he's like very scared and confused and he plays that so well.
00:56:22
Speaker
And probably like the most unlikable beat in the whole show is like ah up to this point. Obviously, haven't seen other seasons. I'm sure he does much worse things. Oh, the shirts? the Exactly. when When he does that shirt spit and he in the moment recognizes that he's like terrifying this guy. ruin Yeah, he's like ruining this person's night and he's just like giving him these random shirts and Like you you see it all in his face off. Like you just said, he's holding all that pain. And and he also is recognizing in which areas he is a burden to other people.
00:56:56
Speaker
and And to bring it into another character, he can tell all of the ways in which he's letting his daughter down. And even though he is ah so consistent in doing that, there are always these beats where you can see that he recognizes his mistakes and even apologizes to Jill.
00:57:13
Speaker
I think that he he is genuinely a dad who's trying. He's trying and he respects his daughter. Like he just doesn't he's not going to tell her everything, everything. but i mean, for one, he doesn't even understand everything that he's seeing and experiencing. So he's not going to share all that with her. But he does level with her to a degree that is not always common in history.
00:57:36
Speaker
not just TV dads, but real dads to their teenage children of like would, would keep a lot of things from, from their kids. But he knows that i this, this new world now has made people grow up in a very fast in a way. So it's like, it doesn't really matter if your daughter is a teenager or still in high school. Like she's, she's in it. Everyone else is part of this. So like, you can't hide that stuff from her. I mean, it takes him like about an episode to process it, but he does, you know,
00:58:03
Speaker
tell her straight on like me and your mother are getting a divorce like he doesn't like you know like like hold he has to you know accept that and process that before he talks to her but he's not like hiding that from her It never feels like he's keeping things from her.
00:58:19
Speaker
Like you said, it's more about him trying to wrap his mind around that being the outcome. Because, like, even in this post-apocalyptic world, I guess you could say, ah he really desperately wants to keep the family unit together because that...
00:58:35
Speaker
puts some kind of normalcy to all of this the problem is like would that fix things no it wouldn't people would still have this kind of glaze to them to kind of get to jill as well just and and the way that like the youth is portrayed in this short show i think it's interesting the way that we go to the first party and we have that like kind of spin the bottle on the phone game fuck choke but But then there's like, like you said, choke. And then there's like burning a fork on the forearm.
00:59:05
Speaker
And I think it's a different kind of nihilism than the guilty remnant. Like that there their nihilism is like they want to bring everyone down to their level. The teenagers are keeping it contained because then then they still go to school the next day. Like they're still keeping up appearances in that regard. But that's also kind of an almost...
00:59:26
Speaker
like acknowledgement to like, we all know that this is like over, right? Kind of a little bit. That's what it, that's what it feels like. Like, why wouldn't we go as hard? I mean, kid you know, kids already do drugs at parties, but if like the world had kind of ended, why wouldn't you just go fucking, you know, hard as hell anytime your parents weren't watching you?
00:59:48
Speaker
it Well, obviously there is that element of like kids do things because their parents aren't watching them and they want to get away with that stuff. But then ah those actions themselves are so aggressive and violent in a way that speaks to, as you'd put it, nihilism that could be seen in the guilty remnant.
01:00:04
Speaker
But then also like there's this idea of like, ah parents would not want their kids to be harming themselves in these ways. But the only reason that kids don't listen to them, in that ah do listen to them in that sense is because in some ways people understand that there is inherent worth to life.
01:00:19
Speaker
And now in this post-departure world, ah life on Earth feels meaningless. It feels... It's like, why are we even still here? Is this is that does this have meaning? Like is like it could.
01:00:31
Speaker
And they even have rituals that try to. but It's a belief system in of itself, because we see that like thing of the refrigerator of like the kid who like was being pranked and like, you know, vanished when he was in the fridge. So they have to like spend enough time in there and like try to break each other's records and in stuff. So it's like there's there's there's a belief system there, like just like with the cults.
01:00:53
Speaker
And their belief system is based around ah prolonging pain. All of them, really. like and And it's not even just in a literal, tangible sense, but in an emotional sense as well.
01:01:04
Speaker
ah The way that Jill has to just kind of saddle her friend having sex with her crush, because that's just the nature of the game, right? it Like, it there is something... Right. She could have chosen her friend is like, I don't have to do that. i Like she's like throwing her that that girl. I mean, she's her friend. She's like that. This is a stupid game. I don't have to do that. And she's like, no, go like she like wants that pain, like kind of similar and also to Tom.
01:01:30
Speaker
And I feel like like having sex, like ah like the party game aspect, you know, like kissing and all that stuff at a teenage party, that makes sense. But like the idea that people would just spin a bottle and just go, you and I, we're going to go have sex right now. That's what the app told us.
01:01:45
Speaker
Yeah, I feel like, a that isn't even reflective in modern reality in that sense, you know, in parties, I feel. and But then also, like, the idea of that being like a, ah okay, this is how far gone we've gone to where all of these things are on the same playing field, where there is no extreme too high for us to...
01:02:06
Speaker
Chase in pursuit of finding some level of meaning or to leave some kind of impact. And the thing that ja these kids will killed take the baby Jesus, for Christ's sakes, which which is funny because the baby, the baby itself is meaningless. We see the montage of them being mass produced, that these are just like generic.
01:02:25
Speaker
baby dolls that they have then put in a manger, but it then has significance because of that context and then has added significance because Jill takes it. Like it then becomes a thing in the town.
01:02:38
Speaker
And obviously there's the beat where they return the baby three days later. Like, come on, it's all there. Yeah. Yeah. The idea that like the ah the baby itself, like it is also an analogy for Jesus in the sense that it's like it could just be any child. The fact that it was born in a manger.
01:02:53
Speaker
That's part of the reason why people are glommed on to the Jesus myth in the first place. Sorry, religious listeners. um Yeah. The thing that's, ah for for them, they don't believe in any theology. They don't believe in belief systems in general. They're there're different kinds of nihilists because the nihilists, when we get to them, like obviously they're nihilists, but they do have a ah code. they They are frauds.
01:03:16
Speaker
These are kind of more true nihilists in the sense that they don't have a determined belief system or code where they're just against ah people who are earnest and larger power structures.
01:03:28
Speaker
So the, ah you know, the way that Jill talks moves through this series or season, I should say, is ah her going towards ah going to the guilty remnant. But then even when she gets there, it's not about actually buying into it. It's just because it's the closest thing to her worldview ah based on the life that she had lived up until that point.
01:03:52
Speaker
And it also feels like it's partly to get a provocation from her, her mom. Like she, know, she went through all the trouble of like, there's a special engraved lighter, which when she throws that, the mom throws that away and then is trying to reach it in the sewer. Great, but kid. Oh my God.
01:04:11
Speaker
ah but but, but, but, but it's like, she wants to still connect to her mother who walked out on, on her, ah But then also going to the guilty remnant feels like its own like and mirror, like, you know, the guilty remnants always trying to provoke people into getting a reaction. It seems like her going there is trying. She's trying to get her mom to just talk to her of like like she even writes on the paper talk and then she doesn't.
01:04:35
Speaker
So then she's like, OK, I'm to strip down in front of everyone and put on these robes like whatever. I'm going to keep going. You're going to stop me like stop me, you know, like be a mother and stop me. Or do you not care? And she keeps on that saying talk.
01:04:48
Speaker
And it's this idea that like ah how firm in this belief system are the guilty remnant truly? Like is their cause so important that it transcends empathy and and familial connection? and the Well, there is no family. That's what that's what they – that's – Patty says, I think at some point, I feel like multiple it becomes a the a theme that like is throughout the show. But this idea of the like that the family unit itself is a lie or it can't be anymore in this new world of like that, that, that which and I and i love when Kevin hears he's like, what the fuck does that mean? what Well, also, we just got to talk about Pat. I think Patty, we got to talk about her at this current point, because even though there are all of these strict rules around this ah guilty remnant movement,
01:05:36
Speaker
They break them. She breaks them. Not they. She breaks them often. and And she doesn't really give many answers as to why she is able to break them ah beyond, you know, in the moment decisions.
01:05:49
Speaker
And it's, again, leading into this concept of, like, is Guilty Remnant really, like, reflective of something? Or is this just the whims of this one selfish person who is trying to enact something that was missing in their life pre-departure?
01:06:03
Speaker
I mean, she's like Holy Wayne in a lot of ways. They're like just making it up. We're making it up as, as, as she goes like that. I mean, there is the, in the flashback, you know, when she's, when she's a patient of Lori's she's like, I have a feeling that something terrible is coming in. She happens to be right, but that's like a broken clock, right? Twice a day kind of thing. That doesn't mean like she had like a psychic permanent. Maybe she did. i don't know. I don't think that, that even like matters really of like that sure the, A bunch of shit is, is weird. And we even see,
01:06:33
Speaker
there's kind of off stuff even before the departure that Kevin's witnessing. So like, you know, there just could be something in the air right before this huge, you know, cataclysmic change. But that doesn't actually mean anything in regards to like why she started this cult because we know from that flashback, she's like an abused woman ah ah who like had trouble fleeing her abuser. now she has the power.
01:06:59
Speaker
Like she can, ah you know, tell all these mostly women there are men at the house we do see some men but it is largely women that we at least in that chapter in Mapleton in ah that that it it's it's a it's a mostly female but that that now she wields this power and she i don't know wants to make everyone make her pain everyone else's problem but ah yeah it's the idea of ah like I said before that like that that mission statement of
01:07:31
Speaker
No, why are you guys trying to return to normal? Like, this is the world ended. Like, they're therere like the opposite of if the churches have been like, no, that wasn't the ah rapture. They're not. They're saying like that.
01:07:44
Speaker
No shit shit that we can never reverse happened. Like, that this is forever fucked now. We're forever different. So, like, stop trying to pretend like we're not. And which It's true that it's different and we should we shouldn't like lie to ourselves. But like their solution to that is not, you know, it's like you said, they're full of shit because it's it's like counterintuitive. If they're supposed to be a living reminder, why are you taking people's like mementos of the last like when they break in on Christmas and take all the family photos of the departed people? It's like that's how they're remembering with those photos.
01:08:19
Speaker
You want them to remember Right. Or it's like you're deciding what's legitimate remembrance or not because they you're like, well, that's bullshit because you're remembering in a sappy Spielbergian way or whatever because you have a nice picture of them on your mantle or in a framed photo.
01:08:33
Speaker
Like, how do you want them to remember your idea of remembrance is the ah towns on fire? Like, that's what you want. Like, that's what happens. like what the yeah Well, the the interesting thing, like there's this fight between Liv Tyler and Andoud at one point where they're arguing about how militant they should be and how aggressive they should be.
01:08:56
Speaker
And that there is where the rub lies. It's this question that they care so much. True nihilists wouldn't be so obsessed with how to get more people onto their side like this.
01:09:09
Speaker
Like the idea that they are so obsessed with impressing themselves and growing their movement ah itself speaks to this idea that they care. Itself speaks to the thing. Why would you want to be a martyr? Yeah.
01:09:22
Speaker
it Because like the the end they know the end goal is violence and a lot of cases, especially in their big stunt, potentially death like that. ah Why would you want that unless you think that that had you're like my life then has meaning now because I died for some message or greater purpose like you then have created that meaning for yourself.
01:09:45
Speaker
and And the way that they like set up Gladys to get killed on the tree, it just so then that can spur. That was horrifying to watch. Like I watched violent shit all the time, so I'm pretty desensitized. But the fact that like, I think it's the fact that it's like, it's not because you could, depending on where someone gets hit, like a heavy enough rock thrown hard enough, you could, someone could get taken down with one good blow to the head. But it's, well, it's like, it's like over 10 rocks. It's like, they just keep going and going. It's, it's,
01:10:15
Speaker
awful the the best part about that sequence uh is tied into that length uh because when you first watch it you have that it's just happening all at once and then she breaks her vow of silence she says please stop no more she and that's terrifying itself and then it's revealed later that it was always the remnant and that she was aware that she was aware that was going to happen but then she didn't she changed her mind And she was she the guilty remnant she was pleading with them to spare her and they didn't.
01:10:50
Speaker
So really, like at that point, they're using one of their members selfishly to ah and further push their next goal, which is the whole mannequin and photo thing.
01:11:03
Speaker
ah You know, and and what is that in service of? It's just in service of, you know, building their movement completely. Well, creating more martyrs because if they they know that like that what the reaction that happens is a totally likely scenario. So it's like if some of you guys get killed or fucked up, you're just hoping that that puts out enough, you know, like PR for your group of like, oh, look at these guys died for this cause or something. And then the move because there are chapters in other, you know, like as we cut around to the other storylines, they are around. So like that yeah they're they're in Seattle with.
01:11:36
Speaker
there no nobook tour Yeah, right. So it's like you you're just hoping to it expand your reach. If you have this big showy thing and there's a lot of martyrs, you're just like, yeah, that's just good for us.
01:11:48
Speaker
But it's like, how?
01:11:52
Speaker
You're dead now. How is that good for you? The thing for them is like, ah as we've established, like they believe that the world has ended, you know, that that everything cannot go back to normal at this point.
01:12:04
Speaker
And even though they claim not to care, and even though they're chain smoking to do this, I think that they just do want to consolidate power. They just want to be the most predominant cult of all of them.
01:12:15
Speaker
And I think that it speaks to the success of their community, the fact that it is in all those other places. But the problem is is we see time and time and again that even that answer isn't enough for the people within the system. Like, they can still be swayed, ah even if some of them go further and further.
01:12:33
Speaker
But the thing with the Yieldy Remnant as well is the... The ways in which they are provoking these things, they are aggressive and they aren't a source for peace. You do have to wonder what their goal is at the end of the day.
01:12:47
Speaker
and they're Like just just you just expansion in bigger numbers? What does that mean? i mean, yeah, because there's that scene. Hold on, hold on. Because I think what it is is that like it's the desire to be seen. It's the desire to be seen as special. because Yeah. Yeah. People who are leaving their houses and then inflicting this torture upon their own families. And it's not just one time this has happened. This happens multiple times over.
01:13:11
Speaker
So it's clearly that they're operating on this layer of emotional manipulation, not for the sake of improving circumstances, but just for the act of being seen. Act of being seen. And like I said, like that, they just want kind of drag everyone down to their level. I mean, but it's like you should be hurting in the exact ways that we are. And we're going to inflict that upon you to make sure that you are like that. the it's it's it's It's wanting validation for their pain, their specific pain. I mean, we see all the different reasons that people join.
01:13:43
Speaker
I think Liv Tyler is an interesting case study because we learn later through Matt that I think it was her mother died the day before the departure. And the the words he used, i I think were interesting. He was like, her grief was hijacked because it's like, yeah, what what is one normal, quote unquote, normal death, you know, ah against the millions that happened the next day of like every all the this devastation that occurs?
01:14:10
Speaker
you're not going to get to be special, that, that, that specialness that comes with, with grief, you know, not that people actively want that normally, but there is a status that is bestowed upon with that. When you're, so you know, going through that grief and hurting in that way that people extend to you extra graces. And, and, you know, there, there's just, there's just a different way that people treat you when you're going through that. And she missed out on that.
01:14:38
Speaker
and And it's interesting when Liv Tyler is brought into the fold because, like, she is with her husband there and she is fiancé, I should say. Yeah. This off-ramp where she you can live a happy life and he is so doting in the sense that he does care about her so much.
01:14:56
Speaker
Would he have been a good husband
Dynamics and Conflicts within the Guilty Remnant
01:14:57
Speaker
down the road? I don't really think so. I don't get that impression. But there is this idea that, like, there is conventional... ah You know, happiness there.
01:15:06
Speaker
And there's the opportunity for her to be seen. But then she sees this ah guilty remnant ah chapter as a more important way of being seen. She does want to rise up the ranks.
01:15:17
Speaker
When Liv Tyler gets there, she is trying to implant herself as much as possible because she does want to be special. And it is interesting that she is the one that wants to get more militant as it goes along, because clearly she knows that there is a lack of direction there, that this is all kind of building over. But for what beyond vanity for her, she wants to make it more directional.
01:15:36
Speaker
And every time she claims how directional she wants it to be, you realize that she really is an aggressive and, ah you know, a vengeance filled person. Yeah, well, you you said that Patty's the only one that breaks the oath of silence. She is – because, I mean, you see the process of, like, there's the initiation or pledge house or whatever where you can still talk and you're not fully in. But even once she's, like, whatever, fully taken her vows and gone in, she breaks that pledge.
01:16:05
Speaker
And it is – yeah, so – you'll You'll see what they do with her character because she she comes back around and now there's a vacancy and in, you know, the guilty remnant, you know, pen no Patty around. what What becomes of them? I mean, it's obviously her. Yeah, yeah. It's obviously her because it doesn't seem like, I i mean, i don't know three episodes in you see what what we've checked back in with Laurie, but Laurie's not...
01:16:32
Speaker
going to be leading. ah You never get the sense that that was, i mean, maybe in Patty's mind that Laurie's like her number one trusted person. But then I'm thinking about the whole Gladys thing. I'm like, would she even bring Laurie in on the Gladys thing? Because Laurie has that panic attack after like after finding Gladys and stuff. I'm like, that didn't read like a guilty conscious of like i you know, participated in setting this person up to be like martyred. I think that that that she's like just...
01:17:00
Speaker
genuinely freaked out that it was like this person that was close to her was was brutally murdered i mean it and so maybe some of that patty taking her on that day of like hey you can talk is her trying to call because like she probably is like i don't want her thinking i did this even though i did well there's that aspect of it but then also i think that she can smell the the Like, she can smell that there is a chance that she may quit the whole guilty remnant. And, like, honestly, like, but before I even get too deep in that, i just want to say Laurie is a very interesting character, but I spent a large portion of season one just being really mad at her.
01:17:40
Speaker
and and i i Well, because she wronged my boy Kevin, so I'm on Kevin's side. I'm not even... Yeah. we're We're with the dogs tonight. we're Team Kevin.
01:17:54
Speaker
Dog house. We're chained to the barbecue. but But the ah the thing with her is that, like, especially through Jill's character, she is building up these walls, but then they're slowly crumbling down because she doesn't know what her position in the Guilty Remnant is.
01:18:12
Speaker
And then ah from Patty's perspective, you're asking this question of, like, she's being, like, groomed to be the next leader in Patty's spot. And I do think that that is the intention.
01:18:23
Speaker
But I think that it speaks to what people in these group mindsets... ah like listen to more that when Patty is missing, they do kind of listen to Liv Tyler a bit more at points. They do.
01:18:36
Speaker
They are kind of enraptured by ah the way that she is not speaking. speaking I mean, she's shes she's she's a she's a forceful presence and in – Like Lori's more preoccupied with her daughter in that moment because her daughter is there and in for forcing her to confront all this stuff. She's trying to get her daughter to leave. That's that's her main concern.
01:18:55
Speaker
And then Liv Tyler's just like, are we still on? Like she that she's like and Liv Tyler's reassurance is like, at least you'll still be together. and then knowing what happens afterwards, it's kind of like at least you'll die together, kind of, because like that's they know that that's like a likely outcome of what they're about to do.
01:19:12
Speaker
And then the added layer that like Liv Tyler is not going to die there. Like, yeah, in fact, like she she was like on board for this thing, but then still wanted to get out of Dodge when it happened.
01:19:23
Speaker
That is an entirely other layer of interesting where, again, what are but what is motivating these people? But the thing with Laurie is we see her in this crisis of faith period throughout the entire first season.
01:19:38
Speaker
And ah she does such a great job of rejecting returning to normalcy at all points. I do believe that she has completely removed herself from empathy after a certain point.
01:19:49
Speaker
But it's when you get those moments where she has to reach back for the lighter. like that There's that beat where it's like, oh, we're going to drive home. I'm going to go for a walk. Yeah. ah she's going to go back for that lighter and she's like in tears reaching for it and and you know that like everything that these people within the guilty remnant they don't fully believe it just like even cult people like if you do any kind of research on how cults operate this show is very accurate to the way that like the people who operate within them Right down to saying you're not a cult. Like when they're doing a Liv Tyler's initiation, she's like, yeah, not a very good cult. You don't even let people join, which is funny.
01:20:27
Speaker
And then Lori's like knee jerking. was like, not a cult because you need to tell yourself that this is something more legit. a cultult That's a delegitimizing like label. So you need to be like, no, that this is like actually important what we're doing.
01:20:42
Speaker
And there's also a layer where they're they're eschewing theology at all points. Like they're they're not even interacting with this idea of otherworldliness. They are just like the world is over.
01:20:53
Speaker
No longer care about these things. Deal with it. now You don't you don't matter. Like I love I love the pamphlet that Tom gets where it's like everything that's important is about you is inside here. It's just a white page. so like Yeah. Love it.
01:21:09
Speaker
what's What's the one that's on the wall at all times that's about smoking? ah oh oh, it's because because it's a take on like ah a Christian thing, but it was smoking replaced.
01:21:19
Speaker
God damn, I just saw it too. I can't remember. i know what you're talking about, though. Like all all the, all the, all their little, all those little like propaganda things, because like she, we get the moments of like, oh, she's just still does care. Like she goes back for a lighter, but then we get the inverse because you think there's the moment of when Matt's outside there, their cul-de-sac, like with the thing about Gladys. And he's like trying to like have some kind of like,
01:21:43
Speaker
like a wake or something, like some kind of memorial outside of like, he wants to remember her. And like, he wants them to remember. She goes outside with those, the whistles that Kevin dropped off. She goes outside and like is whi blowing in his face.
01:21:55
Speaker
And then you see the look of pride on Patty's face. Cause at first she was probably, she looked like a little nervous. Like when, when, when Lori went out, there's like, Oh fuck, I lost her. But then, then when she's blowing the whistle, Matt's face, she's like, all right, at a girl.
01:22:07
Speaker
ah So yeah it's it's just like rejecting even that of like, you don't get to mourn her. unity You're not part of this. Like, you know, you don't get to decide how we the process that.
01:22:20
Speaker
and and And I love that there is that confluence there where you do get the moment where you're like, OK, is she going to go on that side? And even Matt in that moment when when he's doing that.
01:22:31
Speaker
Like, that's probably the most likable he is the whole season. I feel like he he is showing like if if he ever in his actions showed less personal drive and more empathy, that was the moment.
01:22:44
Speaker
Almost. I think that that that whole stretch of like when he's with Kevin and he wants to see her body, which is a funny interaction where he's like. no, you can't see her body. You're a suspect, man. is like He's like, well, yeah, of course, but afterwards, right? i can like that that that that is That is coming from a selfless ah place. i gen I believe he is genuine genuine in that. And then they there's just a fun buddy cop dynamic there when they're trying to find the body. And then Kevin's swearing on on the phone when he calls the, the because they you there's whole mix of the ATF taking possession of of it. And he
01:23:19
Speaker
and He sees swears and then he kind of feels bad about swearing because Matt's there. Matt's like, I say fuck too. A hilarious ah comedy of errors there.
01:23:30
Speaker
But then also that leads into something that we had brought up before where Kevin gets that call from the federal government that's like, hey, just say the word, brother. You know, send us in.
01:23:40
Speaker
We'll take care of the guilty remnant. and And it's talking in that same way that like the news network is talking about them where it's like, Hey, well, you've got a little bit of a cult problem. Just let us come in. We'll kill them all and we'll make it look like an accident. And and and he he doesn't even get the cult that it is straight right away because he names another group when he's like listed when they're talking about Glaz's body. He's like, oh, they're with the whatever. he's like, no, guilty remnant.
01:24:06
Speaker
He's like, ah, those those fucks. What's what's what's their deal again? Like, like there's just so many of these things that they can't even keep them straight. OK. And then there's also like that that element of ah Patty's body, right? When when ah Kevin gets it, right? And the person arrests them, interrogates them, the woman with the eye patch.
01:24:26
Speaker
And she's just like, a you know, we'll cover for you. Like, it's all good. Like, an issue is a bad person. And it just speaks to how, like, in this universe, obviously, it's in that way where it's built against these cults.
01:24:38
Speaker
But then also as a way to reflect, like, modern society, this idea that, like, troublemakers, you know, like, they're they're valid targets in a way, you know, where they can just let them, you know, take the fall for these things.
01:24:50
Speaker
And it'll be the easy way to right yeah create, like, ah peace and calm within America, even though that's clearly not working. I mean, if because if the biggest goal is to keep the status quo quo, they're the biggest threat to it. Like these these these cults, like because that's that's literally some of their mission statements is to disrupt that.
01:25:08
Speaker
So that's that's they're willing to throw anything in there. They don't need much. just I mean, yes, like Holy Wayne is a ah sexual predator or whatever, but that their motivation for going after him when he was like, yeah, he saw a congressman like, oh, well, he's a threat to national security. All right, let's you know, let's do it.
01:25:26
Speaker
Like the they're ready to to start shooting people. I mean, that and that's the like they're not holding their fire. They try to restrain the women, I guess, but they're not like being just discerning about their targets. They're just popping people.
01:25:38
Speaker
Oh, no. Like there is no why. at that like it Like we've already established, like they they don't care about the humanity of these cult people. They just see them as a threat to national security. and And we exist within a world where the American government does that for a far less now, you know? You just can label someone Antifa or whatever, like you whatever scary boogeyman label you want to give. And then that's, you know, you have the green light to do whatever dehumanizing thing you want.
01:26:05
Speaker
You could be just be like a South but American immigrant and you could just be arrested for being in Trenda or Agua. Right. So it's like yeah like there is no there is no rhyme or reason. So so when we get this, you know,
01:26:19
Speaker
Not even conspiracy. It's out in the open that the federal government's doing. it's It's open season because it's because it's not just the government. It's the townspeople, too. There's the whole thing when Kevin's doing the stakeout on the cul-de-sac, like after the ah Gladys gets killed and there's the guy who comes by is like, you know.
01:26:37
Speaker
yeah he's like oh they know who killed that woman he's like yeah i can't talk about open investigations he's like well don't look too hard you know like no one no one's too worried about the like and they're against the idea of there being even a curfew in place to protect because kevin is still like he has every reason to hate the guilty remnant his wife left for them but he's still trying to keep them safe like he's doing he's trying to keep them safe more than patty is ah And he yeah I mean, the curfew is is for everyone's benefit, like when he's trying to do that. But but the town won't go for that because they're like, why should we have to stay inside because of one of them? And then and I love how even the dog killing guy is like, yeah, I don't know about this curfew. And then Kevin just starts yeah swearing at him right there. And was like, like you were there. You found her body. Like, how why you?
01:27:29
Speaker
you It's like, bro, I thought we thought we killed dogs together. I thought we had something. And I love that, like, right after that beat, because, like, it's it seems like it's a done deal that he's going to get this curfew done. And it's like that altercation. They're like, all right let's do the vote.
01:27:43
Speaker
that No one wants it. All right, fuck you, then. Like, it's just over like that. ah The... um Yeah, no, the the guilty remnant, the way that they use Laurie specifically in all of this, because I do feel that Kevin ah is more kind to them because of Laurie's association with them. like He's able to see their humanity because of this.
01:28:04
Speaker
He knows that they're their people. Yeah, and exactly. that they they They have a name. and And when we do get that first, like, ah you know, there's that like celebration day.
01:28:16
Speaker
Oh, Heroes Day or whatever they call it. Yeah. and and and And he's he's holding the line to protect the remnant because his wife is amongst them, you know, like that he wants to get her out of there.
01:28:27
Speaker
we already established how the rest of the like world is turning their back on these cults and just letting them get beat up by the federal government. At that point, he very easily could have just like started beating up the guilty remnant as well.
01:28:41
Speaker
And no one would have said or done anything. But Kevin did the right thing in doing that and continues to do the right thing in terms of just like not going after these people as aggressively as maybe he should. Because clearly we learn later that Patty is that bad.
01:28:55
Speaker
and Right. Get to the the the Patty death scene. Right. The fact that it's all about how she is like trying to make his life worse and how. That's it like from from the moment that he even though that's, you know, whatever, he took her in a fugue state like that's already done. He can't walk that back.
01:29:13
Speaker
But he wants to just like let her go. He's like, OK, let's just whatever. ah Even when she's threatening to talk, he's like, That's fine. It'll be my word a again against yours, but that's not good enough. Like that, that she needs him to hurt then and to make it is, is, is fucked up as possible for him.
01:29:35
Speaker
she She is looking for meaning in her death. and and And that goes against the guilty remnant already, obviously. Right. and ah Because they the the whole point is you yourself are meaningless. That's the whole initiation thing of she has to give away a personal possession each day. Like that that's what the lighter, Liv Tyler's like, you should hold on to that, but by their own...
01:29:56
Speaker
like, you know, ah ethos, they can't have that. They can't have personal belongings. But yeah and and but it's so if if there's no self-worth, why do you want your death to be meaningful? It's because you want to be special.
01:30:09
Speaker
and And also she wants to rub it in Kevin's face that Laurie saw more family in the guilty remnant than with him. And not only is like she feels pride in that, like she is it like, ha ha, I got your girl in a way.
01:30:25
Speaker
And Kevin, like, Kevin doesn't even know the reason that she really joined. He assumes it's because of his infidelity. He was like, I was a bad husband and I, you know, failed. I failed her. That's why she joined.
01:30:37
Speaker
He has no idea about the baby that was departed, which I that is crazy in and in that in that flash. Like, you know, that that. that piece of of score I talked about starts swelling and then, and then you're cutting around to tall all, you know, it's coming. You see the Nora and her family's everywhere.
01:30:54
Speaker
But the fact you don't even get the reverse shot of her looking at the the ultrasound, you just see her face as she looks at, and then black goes to black. I'm like, damn, this is brutal. no,
01:31:06
Speaker
You know, yeah there a baby's gone. and Like, it also establishes in that moment that unborn children were taken in the whole departure aspect. And we haven't had confirm confirmation of this, I don't know, but it's like the idea that an unborn child is just immediately gets the ticket in there.
01:31:25
Speaker
and And then after that, it's kind of fair game. it's It's like some children make it, babies go away, right? But then beyond that point, it's like, Children, fair game. Teenagers, fair game. Adult seniors, fair game. Everyone's fair game, except for the babies that all were gone.
01:31:41
Speaker
ah the The show hasn't really dug into that aspect just yet. i feel like I feel like that might come up more. Who knows if I'm right or wrong. But it's like that lays in more into this, like, is this theology and it's leaning towards theology or is this something different kind of mysticism?
01:31:58
Speaker
Yeah, because, I mean, we know there's like the mother in the opening scene that her baby is
Nora's Journey and Personal Struggles
01:32:05
Speaker
gone. And then that's like imagery of like the Heroes Day statue is like a child being ah carried away. And that's like the opening of the first season has these large religious overtones. It's like this huge mural of like people being pulled into the sky and we see children and babies being pulled, pulled away, too.
01:32:24
Speaker
So it's it's I think they are all like no one. No one's safe. Like it's all fair game. We haven't talked about her too much, but I think it's important that we talk about Claire because Carrie Coon is on fire.
01:32:36
Speaker
Oh, you mean you mean you mean you mean Nora? ah Oh, Nora. Did it you say Claire? But no, no. ah nor like Claire. I was like, is there Claire in the, maybe she meets a Claire when she goes to the conference.
01:32:49
Speaker
Carrie Coon's incredible in this. She like, she like, we're talking about top performances. It is funny that she's Matt's brother because I'm like, they are maybe like the two perform, like everyone in this, like, uh, show deserves kudos, especially Justin Theroux. But like, I'm like, if I had to pick two nominations, like from this season specifically, I'd be like, yeah, Carrie Coon and Eccleston, like, uh,
01:33:12
Speaker
Because their their standalone episodes are like, but because, ah and and before that, we don't get, like, we're really just with Kevin and then we cycle around to other episodes. So until the Matt episode, it doesn't really introduce that almost like Lostian, like, format of like, no, we're going to stick with like one person. Like, they will intersect with our main cast. Like, we see Kevin in the Nora episode, but it's like, no, we're with...
01:33:35
Speaker
We're with Nora. ah And I love their first meet. They're just they're just the best. like I mean, i like she's great individually as a character, but I'm just immediately charmed. Even my cold, cynical heart is warmed by by Kevin and Nora. There's just something that's and so perfect about that pairing. like It's like the night of the Christmas dance when they when they first meet.
01:33:56
Speaker
She's at her locker. And that whole thing of where she had just learned from Matt that... Which he was saying about that scene when he goes goes to borrow money from her and then she can't she doesn't want to give it to him. She's like, yeah, that's like my benefit money for my family. And then he reveals that her husband was cheating. He's like, yeah, Doug was cheating he with the preschool teacher. And I love that like she just laughs like ah the initially. That's like her response because it's like...
01:34:25
Speaker
Man, why would you say this right now? If your goal is to get money from your sister to get a favor, you're going to tell her this? he said I love that he's like, it's the one article I'll never publish. in I like you did maximum damage, man. Yeah.
01:34:43
Speaker
and do You tell everyone. It doesn't matter now. she's She tells everyone, like, when she's get filing for a divorce. She's like, yeah, well, he's nice love with the preschool teacher. So, yeah. And I love that that's, like, like I said about the world building. that Yes, there's a process for getting a divorce from your departed spouse. But then they, like, the judge is like, well, if they return, even those three years later, it's like, no one's coming back. But they still throw that in there because they kind of have to, like – If they come back, this is still binding. And she's like, yeah, do it.
01:35:11
Speaker
But she wants the name Nora Durst because i think from what we see of even leading up to her episode, that there's like the brand of Nora Durst is important to her.
01:35:24
Speaker
and the The way this town sees her, like she lost everyone. So there's like an elevated importance to her. And she is okay with pushing those limits like she at the coffee shop just push intentionally pushes the cup over because and even the the guy there at first is like kind of frustrated but then he's like oh you know like when he sees it's her and you know then he's like apologetic and stuff like she like is is utilizing that because like that and then even at the conference it's like just getting a guest pass is not good enough No, she's Nora Durst and she needs that. There's like a thing, legacy stickers that it's like because she lost people. There's like these colored stickers. She needs that, that that that's an identity.
01:36:07
Speaker
and like to kind of back up just a bit to kind of get to something you were saying about like the a whole. ah the way that they they connect with Kevin and Nora, right?
01:36:20
Speaker
ah The way in which we enter this character is, as we've discussed with Kevin, he's somebody who's constantly like blocking himself off from the world. He's disregarding emotion and feeling to keep himself safe in the logical conception of ah perception of reality.
01:36:37
Speaker
And for ah Nora, she's in the opposite direction where she's constantly seeking out feeling and understanding. She wants to know why she was the only one in her family that didn't go. And and while you're right that she does ah manipulate to a degree her status as this anomaly, ah there is still a part of her that deeply cares.
01:36:58
Speaker
And while ah finding out about the infidelity frees her a bit, allows her to let i think she feels guilty because we see that moment in the flashback where the the she's ah she loves her family of course but there's a thing of like any any parent or spouse especially when you have kids that young i was getting annoyed at her kids like they were like you were yelling and banging on the table knocking juice over and shit they're like i'm hungry um I'm like, yeah, fuck these kids.
01:37:26
Speaker
And she probably thought that to herself of like, ah fucking like even like that's probably a common thought where parents are like, hi I just wish I didn't have to deal with this right now. And then you look, turn back and they're gone.
01:37:39
Speaker
So it's almost like that. She's like, did I do that? That I wish my family away? And it's the fact that like she's so close to them, like they're just right there. And and and and the fact that like it's it's that just like turn and they're gone.
01:37:54
Speaker
it Obviously, there is the guilt aspect, as you're saying. But then it's also like she missed out that it was like they they were just there. and And in the moment, they're gone. And it's like she she wishes that she could have even just one of them there with her or that she was gone with them.
01:38:09
Speaker
She should be with them. But the fact that she's not the fact that she is the one who's left there, she needs to find that meaning. She has to find that feeling to the point where this is literally it literalized in the least subtle way where she is like micro dosing death. Yeah.
01:38:27
Speaker
yeah yeah like I love that. And I love the whole like on the on the air mattress thing. like It's just a ah really clever, while not subtle way of showing what she's all about.
01:38:39
Speaker
And then when she goes to that conference, ah the way that people are trying to hijack her own pain or how they try to use their pain as a way to further along their bottom line and how that just disgusts and destroys her.
01:38:52
Speaker
like She just ends up like turning her back to all of that almost in an emotional sense. like she The thing that motivated before was this sense of you know selflessness.
01:39:03
Speaker
But when she realizes that that her she can't remove herself from the acts of selflessness, she now has a ah renewed ah morality in terms of how she approaches and interacts with these people.
01:39:15
Speaker
But with her own internal code of like calling out bullshit, which I think is like a part of huge part of the appeal for for Kevin, ah because like when she meets that one author who's like, oh, he lost four people.
01:39:30
Speaker
But she calls. i was like, oh, is that including your parents who are like 70 so? You know, it's like, you like, whatever. They were all, they were going to die soon anyway. ah you You're saying that that that's as bad as me?
01:39:41
Speaker
you know, like that I lost everybody, you know, like like he has a higher, you know, body count number of like, that's four people. She lost three, but it's like, so my emotional devastation is greater than yours and matters more than yours. Like I didn't write a book. Why you, you know, like I think she, and she even says that like when he says, I'm sorry, I have five men. He's like, no, you're not sorry. Sorry people don't write books. Yeah.
01:40:03
Speaker
Yeah, it's fair, right? and and
01:40:07
Speaker
but Obviously, ah like yeah and I'll i'll i' hold my tongue is what I'll say about that, actually. ah But the going to that moment in particular, ah like she there there is a feeling of like free.
01:40:21
Speaker
like She is ah able to free herself of whatever guilt or pain that she had through this like acknowledgement that her husband had cheated on her as well. That this idea that... like ah you know the It's not like they were gone because they were perfect as well.
01:40:36
Speaker
Like she is able to kind of see what her brother Matt was saying this entire time. is ah It's arbitrary. Mm hmm. Now she's able to see that. But there's still a freeing element that comes with that.
01:40:48
Speaker
And I think that it's interesting that by the end of the series, she's almost made peace like she she has she actually has concluded her own arc. But then it's actually when she returns to the porch and finds that child on there that she just throws that all away.
01:41:03
Speaker
Because she was getting ready to leave a note of so like, adios. Like, I got to leave town. Because at first you think you're hearing a suicide note, but she's like, no, I don't. I think this exact word, she said, I don't have the power to to kill myself or something. So it's like, she's like, no, I'm going to be alive still. I just, see I need to go somewhere where nobody knows me. And like, you know, it's like she basically wants to start start over.
01:41:25
Speaker
But then she sees the baby. and i think And I think maybe she doesn't even fully acknowledge to herself until that moment of like, she missed being a mother like that, like that that was taken, that was taken from her, you know, that like the thought it probably never even occurred to her like starting over again in that sense of like a new family unit. Like, like, yeah, she's getting close to Kevin, but I don't think in her mind when they're courting each other that she's like, yeah, and then we're going to probably gonna get married and have kids. No, she's like, she's kind of They like each other and they're seeing where it goes. And like that she like there's something that that comforts each other about the ah the other one. So like but she's not I don't think she wants to make a family in that moment until she sees that baby. And then that's that changes everything.
01:42:10
Speaker
Well, I think that like it goes back into the central flaw with all these characters where they are so close to like meeting their realizations, but then at the last second they get the rug removed and it's revealed that you know they are guilty of the same mistakes. and And the question is always there where it's like, is that the reason why these are the leftovers?
01:42:29
Speaker
And the reason that the other people are gone is because they weren't these types of people. And that's just a fascinating thing to throw out there. But then ah going to Kevin and how he relates to this baby being introduced,
01:42:40
Speaker
ah He has that moment with Holy Wayne and he makes a wish. We don't we don't hear it. and And my guess is the wishes that he wants the family back.
01:42:52
Speaker
the The idea that he wants to have like the unit return and the fact that the answer to that wish. look And I'm just guessing that could be the wish. It could not be the wish. But I'd say it's an educated guess.
01:43:02
Speaker
I think that to the ted the text supports that. bay And based on his reaction to seeing her there with the baby, there's like a thing on his face where he's like almost perplexed.
01:43:13
Speaker
Because like we said, he's rejected all this mysticism and stuff around him before. But the fact that it's like, wait, did my wish come true? That's the look on his face kind of like when he sees her. at the I mean yeah, and he's like...
01:43:25
Speaker
yeah He deeply cares for Nora. So seeing her there is having some, but seeing her there holding the baby. I think that's like, like, oh, I wished for this kind of. and But like I feel like in that wish, he would have wanted Laurie to come back. He would have wanted Tom to come back. He still hasn't talked to Tom really, right? Yeah, Tom left the baby there.
01:43:46
Speaker
and he didn't abandon the baby in the same way Christine. Christine just left it in the rest stop. and was like adios or whatever. but but but But he did leave. He's like, well, my dad's a cop. Yeah.
01:43:57
Speaker
I'll just loves us leave it. It's like leaving it at the fire station, you know, like ill I'll just leave this baby here. But then he goes to his mom. That's who Tom. Tom, he goes and finds is is is his mother. So ah the fact that it's now this new fan with his with his daughter there it' is Nora, the baby.
01:44:15
Speaker
and then the straight the stray dog, which is like Kevin's the dog kind of like he's he was feral. And but in like wanted to get because like what what did he even really do to train the dog? You've learned that there was a bet with with with the dog hunter guy where he's like, yeah, that I could rehabilitate one of the dogs or you owe me a dollar.
01:44:38
Speaker
But you just like had the dog tied up and it barked a bit and then he would feed it. And then the daughter cuts it free. And then when he finds it again, the dog like is, is you know, acknowledging him as as it's as its owner. So it's like it was just just by proximity, just by keeping it around it it or something. Yeah.
01:44:57
Speaker
And it's the idea that like like Jill cuts the rope and then when the dog comes back, the rope is still on its neck and then yeah he's able to use it. It's an leash now.
01:45:09
Speaker
It's this idea that it's like the the dog itself ah has like changed in its temperament, but the dog itself has not changed. The thing that you saw is binding you is now something that is like you tying you to this unit, which is like what his family was. He was like, I need to get away from this. Like he has that whole speech about to ah to his family yeah when when it's like his family.
01:45:35
Speaker
don't know if it's his dad's birthday or some kind of, ah oh, he's like man Mapleton man of the year sorry some or something. And then his dad calls him. I was like, yeah, I almost bought it. Like, he knows that, like, you know, he's going through some bullshit.
01:45:49
Speaker
Well, hes it's the whole like secret smoking aspect, right? Like the it's the idea that they're hiding things at all times to seem normal. and That also even extends to like the the mayor character who is like such a big fan of ah of Garvey's father. Right.
01:46:07
Speaker
The the there. I mean, there's some kind of intimacy there because like. She denies in the flashback that they're more than just friends. But then when she's visiting him, when he's institutionalized, she kisses him on the mouth. Like that that's like there's like and then when he's missing, he goes to her house like that. that He's like, yeah, is he here? Like because so there's there's some kind of.
01:46:29
Speaker
the history there. And the question does have to, has to be arisen, right? Where it's like, if Kevin's dad can see the future, right? Was she just like hooking up with them, getting future tips and that's how she became mayor saying <unk> it's a possibility.
01:46:47
Speaker
Yeah, because like by the end of the season, it seems pretty clear that like his father's ramblings aren't just random because it's like it's too specific of a shared delusion then of like of of the things that Kevin is seeing and hearing. And then that final moment of when he first think there's the fake out of like you think Matt's double crossed him and, in you know, having him institutionalized.
01:47:11
Speaker
And then he goes, he sees his father and his dad's like, don't look behind you like you need to stay here with me. This is where you need to be. looks behind him it's patty time patty's still here and and down ain't going nowhere baby she's a series regular she's like i'm gonna pay for all three seasons like i love this this is like in a lesser show this would be the moment where it's like careening off the rails and i'm like oh brother this stinks stinks like yeah um but But the fact that it's Ann Dowd, like one of the best living character actors, just like finding a way to shoehorn in like the ghost subplot that you see in a million TV shows.
01:47:49
Speaker
I am a big fan of this decision. and and it And it feels character based because it's like, yeah, what would what was Patty in life of? But like the haunting and trying to like curse... Kevin. And then so like even in death, she's like, because because the dad has the line, she got what she wanted because the dad's like, if you go with her, you go with her like that. She's this is going to be something you're saddled with now. And she even says that like we're traveling companions now. So it's like like you get rid you get rid of her buddy.
01:48:19
Speaker
And also the juxtaposition that even though she broke the rules and she talked spoke often, the fact that she was such a silent character before and now she's like snide. All bets are off. She's dead, baby. She can talk all she wants.
01:48:33
Speaker
and Right. Though I do miss the fact that like when she was silent, she used to she does this like like when she when she snaps, like points to the chair. You see ah Laurie do it a couple of times. it's not as for that's how you know that she's not the true successor, because you're like, it's not she can't snap as forcefully as and out. So but she she she was never going to lead this these people.
01:48:57
Speaker
And also like Lori, when she's like focused on things, like she, she really sells the whole mindless thing. The whole, like, there is no guilt, like guilty remnant is um all there is.
01:49:08
Speaker
I'm not a person. how Yes. When Ann Dowd is looking at somebody, it's like so much contempt. It's personal. b Yeah. and And that's what the real motivations of that.
01:49:21
Speaker
ah That's what the guilty remnant wants to do really at the heart of it. She understands it better than her own followers. Yeah. So, yeah, I agree. I i love that that turn. And, and yeah, there'll be there'll be more that come with Patty. We'll we'll follow we'll follow up on on her because I i love every everything that comes comes with that. Yeah, rubbing hands together because it's it's it's such – it's such a bold and crazy choice.
01:49:46
Speaker
But like I said, you still could, if you were of a mindset where you want to reject all, you want to keep everything in the tangible and like, like the, the, ah just like the material world, you could just like, yeah, he's, he's imagining things like, like that. He's like losing it. Like, like his dad, that reading is there and he is losing it regardless of whether it's real or not. But like it, I think, I feel like that's what matters is his response two to this the information and what he decides going forward because he is he has reached the point where he does need to kind of decide how much he wants to take this stuff seriously and it kind of doesn't seem like it can be ignored anymore. Like like he the dad said, like, you that you can't you weren't going to get off that, they're not going to let you off that easy. also was there's the one thing the dad said of like, they're sending someone to help you.
01:50:37
Speaker
I feel like the first time I watched it, my mind went to the dog hunter. I'm like, because he's such a, a, an enigma that like, that's the guy they sent. But now and on rewatch, I'm like,
01:50:48
Speaker
Was it Amy? Because she kind of seemed like that she has his back a lot, like in terms of like in a way that almost it makes even Jill question of like, did you fuck my dad? Like, like, why are you like back, you know, like having his back all the time? And ah it could just be, you know, she she's just thankful to have, you know, the home provided for her. And, you know, he he.
01:51:11
Speaker
He was he was there for her. So she's grateful for for that. it it It could just be that. But there almost does seem to be a knowingness sometimes like outside of his, you know, visions, night visions and stuff of like when she's talking about the stuff that he doesn't remember. I'm like, does she is she keyed into this a little bit? I don't know.
01:51:30
Speaker
I think it's an excellent point. I think you're right, honestly, just like hearing that theory, because like what other purpose does she serve in the story beyond just being in Kevin's corner? Like she's Jill's friend ah ostensibly, but like is always in Kevin's corner at all points. And and like she never takes Jill's side over Kevin's. And like it's like that's your best friend, I guess. But no, you're you youre like got the dad's back, which like, yeah, I guess if I was Jill, I would be like, are you fucking my dad like why are why are you why you taking his side she is not helping her case in that sense but the the thing that's interesting with her character is that amy is living life normally as most as somebody in this position can she seems like a normal teenager
01:52:15
Speaker
Which, like, is there anybody else in the show that seems well-adjusted relatively beyond her? Not really, right? so i think I mean, the twins are, like, normal in the sense that they're, like, normal stoners, but they still are doing the, like, Haydn's Caligula-esque party stuff.
01:52:34
Speaker
Although it almost seems like... the stonerdom overrides that like they're not, they don't even arrive to the party on time. And then it it seems like they miss out on all the, the hooking up and stuff. And then they just help Jill bury a dog. So like they're, they're, they're like too goofball-y to be like fully,
01:52:51
Speaker
like like it in in the the full doomsday teenager mode that they're like because then they're just like right at the scene where they're just wrestling while jill's trying to order the national geographic oh my god i want to go back to the dog thing because that's such a good early bit to like let you know what kind of show this is because like jill discovers the dog in the back of the trunk and she's like there's no way that my dad shot this dog and then she's like hey dad did you shoot the dog and he just was like but can He can't answer it. He does not have an a good answer for that.
01:53:22
Speaker
He didn't shoot that dog. I mean, so he could he could he could say no. But then that just raises more questions. It's like the start of all these things where he's like, I don't have an answer for you. I don't really know what that is. like And the fact that he forgot about that until she brought it up just then. He's like, oh, shit. yeah There was a dog in my car.
01:53:46
Speaker
He has so much shit going on because there's just times where he blacks out and doesn't remember things of like, oh, schedules get changed or whatever. Some meeting was scheduled. But then there's times where you see him schedule the thing for a certain time and then he forgets about it.
01:54:00
Speaker
who I'm like, oh, that's real. I'm just Kevin's just like ah all the rest of us. Like there there is a universe where like the dog in the trunk thing could have just been handled so easily. Right. But he the thing that causes Kevin's own downfalls is just how stressed he is and how he lets that get in the way of solving his problems.
01:54:18
Speaker
It's why he's such a funny character. He won't even let the bagels ah go. Like there's a whole funny bit when he's visiting his dad and he says to the mayor, did you take my bagels?
01:54:29
Speaker
And she's like, what? Yeah. like Because it's such a crazy like accusation to make. And then he goes and unscrews the toaster, finds the bagels, which is kind of like like it's like almost metaphoric, like, OK, I'm not I'm not losing it. Like those bagels were real. Like I didn't.
01:54:46
Speaker
This is real. Like this is like the the bay if the bagels are real, everything's real. He had so much joy in that moment when he found those bagels. I was like, is he going to take a bite?
01:54:57
Speaker
it going to happen? I mean, because that's like a day or so later and they're burnt and like as hell. So I was that's not even dog food at that point. You just got to toss them. But it would also taste like victory. So I don't know. I'd munch down on it.
01:55:10
Speaker
yeah you Like, hey, but you you find the food that you lost, that you got to take one bite. That's all. but yeah one One bite, you know the rules. Yeah.
01:55:21
Speaker
It's not like it was on the floor. i mean, I'm sure that bit that toaster needed to be cleaned out. Like, i I don't think those cops are cleaning that regularly. But, you know, it's not it's not the floor. maybe Maybe you could like approach it like it's another restaurant, you know, like sometimes when a grill is used all the time for burgers, you know, like you you can kind of taste how like oh it's aged.
01:55:40
Speaker
it adds it adds It adds flavor. Yeah, it adds flavor. So like this, these bagels were steeped in all of the other bagels moving through the machine that day. So maybe those bagels taste a bit better than usual. Who knows? i don't know.
01:55:53
Speaker
It's good. Good thing. He got him. No, no. like And it feels like i because I'm on Kevin's side, like, yes, found him. Yeah. ah Like Kevin is not a good guy. I don't think that he's, you know, he's very flawed.
01:56:06
Speaker
He's a fuck up. He's flawed. But i I am with him all the time. Like I, like I am always like, what, what's this Kevin guy getting? ah He's getting situations.
01:56:18
Speaker
That's what makes him such a compelling character. is and And I get why people say the show is devastating, because these are very real stakes. But you can't help but not feel like the universe is against everybody.
01:56:29
Speaker
And no matter their best efforts, they're just hitting these brick walls left and right. So yeah despite their best intentions of doing better, they can't. So while it's you just can't help but laugh after a certain point. And I almost feel like that's almost the ethos of the show, because...
01:56:46
Speaker
you know as a a I feel like every college student who takes a philosophy cast starts flirting with nihilism of like, yeah, wait, fuck
Themes of Nihilism and Humor in 'The Leftovers'
01:56:55
Speaker
everything. None of this is is is is all bullshit.
01:56:59
Speaker
Nietzsche said so. ah But but but i then I start gravitating towards, and I feel like I read Camus before I even read Nietzsche, but then circling back around to like absurdism over ah in existentialism over nihilism where it's like,
01:57:15
Speaker
yeah there is no inherent meaning you have make your own but that doesn't mean it's all meaningless it's kind of and it also it the absurdity of it is like there's there's just an inherent absurdity to all of it and that's like kind of what the show is is getting at like there's the the whole thing with ah we already mentioned like the baby baby jesus being missed and when it gets returned i love that moment of he he picks it up and turns it So was like, yeah, I found him. And then, but then when he sees that Matt got another one because there was, like yeah, he had a spare.
01:57:48
Speaker
Then he just tosses it out on the side of the road. good Yeah. It's the idea that like, is look it looks, that baby looks divine. Like the baby they got just looks like a random doll that they put in a manger. Yeah. But, but that, that baby looks like it was from yeah.
01:58:06
Speaker
Yeah. Because, like, Matt needs to be seen as the savior of this town. And, of course, he's going to be the one who steps up and does this and takes, like, this ownership. He's got 10 baby Jesuses in the back of his car at all times. Like, he's got spares.
01:58:21
Speaker
I can get you a baby Jesus by Tuesday. i get you I can get you one right now, dude. The humor of the show the juxtaposition of, like, how devastating it is with, like, the absurdity and all that? Or was that the note?
01:58:37
Speaker
It's all good. i Like the the major thing with this show is that it is able to stra straddle that line so well, but it it is still firmly a drama. Like I wouldn't tell somebody that this is a comedy, but but I would always tell somebody that like the humor is there to the point where even though this is a quite...
01:58:59
Speaker
Soul-crushing experience. It just, you know, it doesn't have that. And also, actually, I remember what i was going to say was, like, even though we're dealing in nihilism this whole time, even though that there is this question of meaninglessness, I don't think that the show itself views it. I think the show rejects that. Like, it it's it's it's saying, like, no, it's it's all it's kind of about...
01:59:19
Speaker
You know, I was joking before i think that was before we started to record like persut for persevering of the human spirit. And like that's kind of what it is like down to like no matter what you believe, we we endure. were We're still here.
01:59:33
Speaker
Like regardless of what you believe about the personal systems of meaning and how people can use that to sometimes do horrible things like that, it still is important in its own right that we exist and that we're here.
01:59:49
Speaker
Mm hmm. This this show oddly feels so similar to the Stephen King, the stand adaptation that Mick Garris did. Did you ever watch that one or no? Was that the one that I haven't seen any of the stand adaptations, but which one are you referring to? The most recent one?
02:00:05
Speaker
No, no, it's the older one. OK, one from the 80s. You have to watch it. and eighty I that that that. Yeah, the 80s one I've been meaning to watch that the sounded good. and it like Like, look, I wouldn't say that it's good. like that There are certainly like cheesy aspects. It's a Stephen King TV movie, right? Like there there are still going to be things that that that make you bristle, right?
02:00:27
Speaker
but But it's that same kind of ah taking the book of Revelations and... ah adapting it for then modern audience and with all stephen king things there is that layer of comedy to it there is there there is a cheesiness in the sentimentality uh but also i i feel like tying into this whole kind of false prophets thing ah you gotta watch the show for that reason and and another show i thought about while watching leftovers was uh kingdom hospital the i've never I've never seen it. I feel like it all got added because similarly to Twin Peaks, The Return having its other season, he came back and did another season of of of of Kingdom. And i feel like it's Mubi or someone has all all the seasons.
02:01:15
Speaker
Yeah, I wanted to to circle around and and say i'd never I'd never seen it. ah And it it just sounded like my kind of... weird thing because like yeah I know there's the trend of like anything that's weird or off and people are like it's kind of lynchian you know it's like it's like no there's different specific flavors of of that and I saw you make the compare like this is kind of closer to that than like it like Twin Peaks.
02:01:41
Speaker
who because like twin peaks uh is obviously a very optimistic show despite existing in a world of darkness uh and even though the ending is rather dark too with the return but the i'd say all the endings are are like of the original series the return and i mean fire walk with me is the which is funny that that's the closest to an optimistic because it's like a a girl die but but it's also like there's like a beauty to that yeah Well, it's like there's like the question of like something like it needed to happen almost within Twin Peaks. Like that's like the ah spurring of everything else. It's so everything else can happen. There is a weird beauty that Lynch ah approaches that storyline with.
02:02:23
Speaker
But to to get to the comparison between Twin Peaks and Kingdom Hospital. So Twin Peaks, like it's so much about the ensemble and so is Kingdom. But because ah Lynch went in that more optimistic direction, Von Trier goes in the nihilist direction. So it's surrealist comedy, but it's nihilistic.
02:02:44
Speaker
And ah the way that leftovers kind of fits into that is it like ah kingdom is all about like a hospital where like mysterious things are happening and people are kind of not doing their job and they're kind of,
02:02:57
Speaker
figuring it out like they're personally affected by things it feels a lot like kevin garvey's like approach in this story like and the kingdom hospital just feels like kevin garvey's whole you know arc pretty much yeah but yeah instead of cop but the doctors like what if doctors were going through a kevin situation right now what What if there was like an otherworldly being that they had to worry about? What if there was ghosts and stuff?
02:03:24
Speaker
I don't even want to spoil. like I mean, that that sounds that sounds great. ah Like Udo Kier is in it, I got to say. If you're you're familiar with Udo Kier, he is in it and he is amazing. I will not tell you what he does in it. But the the fact that they got that on a television screen at one point it is boggles my mind.
02:03:42
Speaker
What did it originally air on? Like, just like. It's the sweet a Swedish show. Yeah. So, so Swedish TV. ah No, wait, it might not be Swedish. I could be getting it wrong. It's, it's ah Denmark. He's Danish. that's Oh, right, right, right.
02:03:54
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. there's it's I mixed it up because there's a Danish doctor character who has like ah a vendetta against Swedish people. So, and that's like a running bit on the show where he's just like, I hate the Swedes.
02:04:06
Speaker
It's very funny. Okay. That's cool. Yeah. I need, I need to watch it. Yeah, especially if you like Leftovers, because it and also similar to Leftovers, it does the same thing where there are the the repeating musical motifs where it's like you kind of get used to it's like, oh, when this song comes on, I know something like this is going to happen. and and And in a similar way, feels quite dreamlike where you just kind of drift between scene to scene.
02:04:32
Speaker
and And even if ah the jumps in tone are quite large, you never really feel disruption. yeah no Yeah, it never takes you out because I never – I'm trying to think of like even at the most absurd, silly moments ah in The Leftovers, i'm I'm still locked in emotionally. Like I still feel like I'm i'm in it with with with these guys. and And it only gets crazier from here on out. Like they can just pile on stuff that's bananas and – ah very silly but it it's still it's still all gels together so I'm I'm really excited to be re-going through this because I even years after watching it the the show stayed on my mind I mean there's like specific things that I forgot about until the re-watch but it's yeah it's just it's an important show to me and I'm um I'm glad to be be doing this re-watching it with you
02:05:24
Speaker
I'm glad to be doing it as well. It wasn't really a coordinated effort. No, is just it was just, hey i saw i so I had recommended it to you ah and I saw you were doing it and I was like, maybe it's time for me to rewatch The Leftovers. I think I need to rewatch The Leftovers.
02:05:39
Speaker
Hey, like now that I'm going through it, like I get it. I will. This is a show I will return to even the first season. If I don't like the rest of it, like I'm just really really. Which I die i'd like. This is the kind of thing because like do I think you're on the same wavelength of me. It's like it's already great. And then and it just is iterative of the subsequent seasons because I would.
02:05:59
Speaker
say each season is kind of better. Like, it like it already starts great and I love it. But some people say like two is the peak, but I, I think they improve like at least the things that I like connect to and remember it's kind of, kind of iterative. um And, and there, even if there's changeups between the seasons, like there are,
02:06:19
Speaker
like without really spoiling anything, there's like a Matt episode every season, you know, like it's like, it's like yeah we, we get, we get, we get stuff like that. And, and I, I love those kinds of variations. And even though, and like you'd mentioned, like the music, some of the needle drops being on the nose, like just wait, like you did that, that, uh, where's my mind needle drop.
02:06:40
Speaker
There might be some followup on that in a different form. but but Oh, great. I'm glad. I'm glad when a show remains consistent. i'm glad I'm glad that they came back to Like doubling down on it almost makes it like it's like, oh, you were corny the first time, but then you do it again. You're like, well, now you're insisting. So now that like i' that now I feel i like I have to respect that you didn't back down this.
02:07:05
Speaker
Oh, now it's an actual theme of the show. Right. The one thing I will say without getting too deep into season two is just like comparing the intros to the show.
02:07:16
Speaker
Season one intro is way better than. i I was I was of the same mind the first time I watched it. But I'm curious of if I I like the visuals of the season two opening of like the like the kind of voided space.
02:07:30
Speaker
I mean, I, you know, even as I've gotten older, there's maybe more country or folksy things that I would would like. But that song particular, it's it's not my favorite bag of tea. I like what they do with season three is where they take those visuals and then there's like a different song each episode.
02:07:46
Speaker
Oh, great. Okay. I'm a big fan of that one. And at that point, it'll be like Russian roulette. Who knows what i'm going to get? Yeah. And one of the choices they do, I'm like, oh, fuck yeah. Okay. Lindelof, you get a pass for any other musical and choice you've made for this one.
02:08:01
Speaker
You know, ah it has to be said, David Lindelof gets too much shit. Like, I feel like with. Like, what are what are his crimes really at the end of the day? You know, because like even people still.
02:08:12
Speaker
i mean, i I yeah, I'm a Prometheus defender. But yeah, like whatever. Tomorrowland, who cares? Like that's ah let's let's just blame ah Brad Bird for that ah in conflicts with George Clooney for some reason.
02:08:28
Speaker
Right. That's the problem. That movie. but But it seems, yeah, it' he's clearly ah TV's more his thing. And in like even Lost, people try and like throw that.
02:08:39
Speaker
People, I feel like culturally, even in other pop culture things that reference Lost, misscited. They're like, yeah, the island was purgatory the whole time. And hey, I'm not going to say that the writing in Lost was like always consistent or they could ah obviously didn't know what they were doing the whole time. But the island was not purgatory. Let's go on things straight.
02:09:00
Speaker
the ah It's just a man, which I feel like I can at least get in a show like that where you would expect um because it leans into certain sci-fi tropes and storylines and stuff that you're almost expecting there to be ah more coherent scientific or sci-fi answer that's recognizable instead of it just being the island's magic, which is like the explanation for like most of the stuff you're like, I don't know, man, the island's magic.
02:09:27
Speaker
Yeah. but the left your hands up the air But the leftovers is smartly like it's not promising you any answers. It's like it's ah it's actually about what happens to people when there are no good answers. So like that's that just as a premise is super compelling, but also smart. If you were if people got after you for your previous show for unsatisfying answers, you'd be like.
02:09:49
Speaker
Hey, did I say I was going to answer anything? I didn't. And to show's credit, it does answer stuff. Like it's not, it does not everything. I'm i'm not going to say every single, there's no loose ends or anything, but it gives you. And sometimes it like, like in real life and the characters in the show, you choose what to make of it. It kind of does leave, you it leaves you with possible interpretations of things of like, yeah, it could be that.
02:10:13
Speaker
Yeah. Well, like the thing is, is that but as you would so greatly illustrated, the show is designed in such a way to kind of ah negate that criticism. But but also within the structure of the show itself, most of the answers that are given are either really absurd or are meaningless. Yeah.
02:10:33
Speaker
And there's no real in-between. Like the characters either are devastated by the information they hear or they just move on as if nothing happened. And like there there is an extremity there. There is a also a layer of it doesn't really matter what they learn or what they have to go through next.
02:10:54
Speaker
The trajectory is all the same. And we're just interested in seeing where that trajectory winds up. We just want to find. Because it's about the emotional arc and the revelations are in service of that. Because like we said before with Kevin, it's not like, like, okay, sure. If you want to take your takeaway to be that, like, there are definitively other forces at play. His dad's not crazy. That's not that doesn't solve his problems. Like, you know, that in fact, maybe creates new ones. So then that's like more of a journey that he needs to go on.
02:11:27
Speaker
Like this is a much better show than Watchmen for sure. Because I think that Watchmen is very tidy. It's very like, like very obvious. It's very, it's almost too tidy. Like I still liked the whole show, but they, especially by like the last episode, it ah does feel a little bit like where he's like, and no, I'm going to answer. No, don't worry. I have an answer for that. You know, like it's like, um bro, I like, I know he says this isn't Twin Peaks, but I'm like, bro, I like David Lynch. You don't to explain shit to me.
02:11:54
Speaker
know Like, You s spit in my face and kick dirt in my my eyes and tell me to go go fuck myself if I ask for an answer. That's that's what I want. You do that Tulsa episode.
02:12:06
Speaker
You have the the gumption to do it the way that they did. Right. And then you like are too self-conscious in other departments. it It's a waste of potential to me. Almost. It's like you you knew what you were working with was that good.
02:12:19
Speaker
You know, you knew that you had ideas that were going to, you know, rattle some cages. But the fact that he pulled like doesn't even pull punches, he puts on too many punches in that show to the point where it robs its own material. But again, I like that show. I'm not saying. Yeah, I like I like all his shows. I even enjoyed Mrs. Davis. I mean, which isn't purely a Linda. He always gets the solo credit. But think there was someone from like Big Bang who co-show ran that with him.
02:12:47
Speaker
That shows it. Did you ever watch Mrs. Davis? No, I'm looking at it right now. But yeah, ah well it's so it's a nun? It's a nun stuff? She's fighting AI. There's like an all-powerful AI. This is kind of pressure. Like maybe that shows...
02:13:03
Speaker
It might might play even better now because this was from a couple years ago before we were even at this point. It's 2023. Yeah. So this probably – Mrs. Davis probably hits even better now. ah She's great in it, ah ah Betty. I see one person in particular here that excites me in this cast list.
02:13:21
Speaker
Who is it? Legendary character actress Margot Martindale. That's who. Oh, yeah. She's great in it. The whole the whole cast is great. And then there's even –
02:13:32
Speaker
i well Without getting specific, there is an idea similar to ah what's the Verhoeven nun movie, Benedetta, where it it literalizes the idea of like – because I always would forget even though I went to Catholic school and there were like nuns in my high school and shit. I'm like – Yeah, the lore nuns are married to Jesus. and And it's like, let's literalize that idea. what what does that mean?
02:13:59
Speaker
Jesus is your husband. and And so Mrs. Davis is playing in that in that like that that idea, too, of like, oh, yeah, yeah, her husband's Jesus. That's awesome.
02:14:10
Speaker
i You're selling me on the show that I may not watch just because I'm not a big TV guy. It takes a lot for me to watch TV. And it took me years of hearing nothing but a fuse of praise from the leftovers.
Comparative Analysis: 'Mrs. Davis' and 'The Leftovers'
02:14:21
Speaker
And then I was like, fine, I'll watch the left.
02:14:23
Speaker
Yeah, this this isn't as high a priority as as that. I it it's a very silly and sometimes slight show like it's not going. what But it there are moments of emotional tension.
02:14:36
Speaker
Profundity that like kind of hits you out of nowhere because the show is so silly most of the time. There's like there's like a whole like anti-AI like resistance group that's ah what's that actor's name? Chris Diaz Matanopoulos or whatever.
02:14:54
Speaker
he's he's ah He's a good character actor, but the leader of the group is – there's a recurring bit of like anytime you have a communication with them, they're always breaking phones. So it's like they're just running through like disposable phones because they're always just – because they're trying to stay off the grids, but they're just – they break phones like every scene they're in. It's just a recurring – It's just, there's like silly gags like that. So then when there is emotional stuff, it kind of hits you out of nowhere. But yeah, I'm not i'm not saying that this is something you need to run out and go see. Like Leftovers is definitely, if so for some reason someone's listened this deeply and they still haven't watched it, front shame on you. But then also...
02:15:33
Speaker
Yeah, there's there's still hope for you. And it's only three seasons. I feel like that's that's the thing. ah nice thing about binging HBO shows is like, it's not going to be 20 episode seasons. There's just 10 episodes. The final three season three is only eight episodes.
02:15:47
Speaker
ah So it's, yeah. I feel like it was a kind of a deal where it was like, They probably were wrapping up the show anyway, but I think HBO was like, we'll give you eight.
02:15:58
Speaker
And it it did didn't feel shortchanged, though. they silver it's it does It's not like the final season of Boardwalk Empire where it was like, could he use some more episodes in this final season to to flesh some of this stuff out? But they they they may they make it work. So like it's it's it's it's an easy binge.
02:16:16
Speaker
What's up? On the bones here. Like, this show takes its time in many sequences. It doesn't rush to get to the points that it gets to. So when when I hear that there's, like, you know, a shorter season, there's stuff you can cut out of the show for sure.
02:16:29
Speaker
But it's the fact that you get all that texture, especially in this first season, that really allows for it to feel like a full... full universe, full America even, you know?
02:16:40
Speaker
Yeah. I can see it so vividly. And ah the fact, and something I didn't really touch on too much, but it's like the same way that the last stand, ah sorry, the stand, the Stephen King adaptation does.
02:16:53
Speaker
It's so thoroughly a commentary on America and it not even its place in this universe, but just in its place at that point. this The show came out in 2017. This is very clearly like in reaction to Trump.
02:17:06
Speaker
and And I think that as viewed from that perspective, it's quite insightful. And prescient, too, because not only, do you you know there's we got Trump 2.0 and then COVID fucking happened. We had a national pandemic.
02:17:20
Speaker
This whole idea of The world ended and we're not really acknowledging that it did. I feel like it's something that people can really relate to now. I feel like we've talked about that. Maybe the other review we brought we brought that up in that it was like cloud of cloud kind of has like that apocalyptic vibe where it's like, yeah, we're not we're not like aesthetically fully in the apocalypse, but something has ended. And and that's like,
02:17:46
Speaker
you You feel that if you just go, even though, you know, we're not having to mask or ah quarantine at home now anymore, but it there's a difference. Things are different now. And I don't I don't think there is a going back to before, really.
02:17:59
Speaker
Oh, absolutely not. and And I think that it is interesting that the death count in leftovers is like not too far off from the death count. Sorry, not death count. Departure count is not too far off from the death count from COVID. Am I not wrong in thinking that? I think you're not right. I because it that's still rising, you know, like they're not talking about it on the news regularly, but did people still die from it. It's still going. So that's that's still racking up. And yeah, like, yeah, there's but epidemics that took out larger chunks of the population, but it still was ah global pandemic and it took a good chunk of people.
02:18:35
Speaker
It may not be on the same scale. I will point that out. There were there are recorded 7 million deaths of coronavirus. That's a large chunk of change, certainly, you know, but like i like maybe it's like half of how many people were departed on that day.
02:18:52
Speaker
Still comparable, but also interesting to point out how ah even in our real world facsimile of COVID, people are so averse to even...
02:19:05
Speaker
confronting what happened to even discussing that it still exists and all the things that they personally got wrong and how they were part of the problem in a way because so many people became so, you know, vaccine hesitant.
02:19:17
Speaker
ah One thing as well, just to go back to the show, is is this idea that like... ah people are upset upset with being confronted with their past rather than getting over it. It's why the whole guilty remnant ah inspires that ah reaction from people and in that riot scene. and It's this idea that people, while they say they want to remember and they say they all that stuff, in reality, they just want to move on.
02:19:42
Speaker
They just want peace, but they can't move on. They can't have peace because it's so large and it's so unexplainable. Right. like I think Patty even has the line of like...
02:19:53
Speaker
Do you think about it much? Like I do. I think about it all the fucking time. What else is there to think about? You know, like that, that would, wouldn't that not be like the top of your mind? If that something that huge, that would just be like if aliens showed up and then people were like, nah, not.
02:20:10
Speaker
You know, to be like, yeah I think I think we need to talk about this. But but it's the fact that they do met. It's like it's a self ah sustaining action. It's just for the sake of them being OK in that moment.
02:20:24
Speaker
And it's so fascinating that it goes down that path, that it views ah the modern American populace as avoidant to these problems. And they would r which we we are. to To a fault that that we can so easily be controlled and manipulated without going on a ah the long tirade. I mean, that's like the success of this rise in fascism that that that like we are so willing to like want some normalcy that...
02:20:53
Speaker
we If you chip away at it slowly by little by little, we'll accept a lot of bullshit. It'll even be like, yeah, whatever. The guy in the highest office is a pedophile. No pedophile is friends with sex traffickers. Like that's what you can do.
02:21:07
Speaker
like the the fact like just to get on that. train of thought for a moment. Like the idea that the conservatives pushed so heavily for, ah you know, attacking secret pedophile rings within governance.
02:21:21
Speaker
The fact that they just went ah ahead and they elected the guy who was doing secret pedophile rings, you know, there There is a deep irony there. and And I don't think that that's something that America is going to be able to shake but shake off in the coming years.
02:21:34
Speaker
there There is like, it even goes into our long walk conversation. America is fucking washed. It's done. America is in their age, their century of humiliation at this point. Like no one even buys the there's there's the scene ah early on, I think maybe the even the first episode where i assume Jill goes to a public school at at the beginning for asking anyone to rise for the pledge.
02:21:58
Speaker
No one's really doing it. Instead, more people participate when now there's an added part where it's like if anyone would like to say a prayer and like ah for for those that were departed and their return, then people are getting on their knees and and praying and closing their eyes and stuff.
02:22:13
Speaker
That's what people are going to. The idea of the ah of an America, you know, like if there is no family anymore, then there's then there's no country, you know, like like that all that's meaningless. Like we've...
02:22:24
Speaker
wait We blew it. I mean, that that's its as simple as that. Better start speaking Chinese, buddy. Hey, ni hao. I'm ready to go. Let's do it.
02:22:38
Speaker
i would love to ah I would love to see China. what i that's ah That's one of those places I'd love to go to. But the the yeah, yeah like this show is kind of ah coming to terms with America being in the past now, I feel.
02:22:53
Speaker
Like, that's that's what I get from the show on the grander scale, ah which is why the ATF is so aggressive about this stuff, because it's like they need to enforce of like, no no, no, America, we still do stuff. Look, look, we fucking wiped out the coal. No, we're good.
02:23:09
Speaker
but're Everything's fine. We're fine. what if If the idea of nation no longer matters as much and you are in a position of governance, that just makes you, ah you know, insecure in your power. It's open season on you then. Yeah.
02:23:25
Speaker
But it's also open season on the opposite end, too, where you're like, I need to prove that I have this power and I need exert that power. And that is reminiscent to and ah the same tactics of drumroll occult.
02:23:38
Speaker
ah buy that's That's what's happening here is the the whole nation itself is its own own religion. And now the the religion, ah it's also this other question, right, where it's like we know that this rapture happened, but we don't have the pinpoint accuracy of if this is a Christian theology.
02:23:55
Speaker
rapture event is this a catholic you know is this any other religions right did everyone kind of not really get it ah right like it's like in a weird amalgamation of of all of all it and none and none of it at the same time like it's like weirder than any one could have even imagined and yeah i there's something that that definitely hits hits about that like this show the show is fucking good yeah Hot take.
02:24:23
Speaker
Hot take. Yeah. Great show. One of my new favorites. Absolutely. Hats off, Lindelof. I think you get a lifetime pass. I don't care what anyone says about you. You can fart around. You could pull a fucking, you should you should try and get some of that ah ah fleabag money. do so do some Make some deals and never make any shows. like that's do Do you know what he's doing next?
02:24:45
Speaker
Is it something for DC? Yeah. Yeah, he's doing the Lantern show. Oh, well, that is coming. But the DCEU is like kind of in a weird... like And and iette I still haven't seen creature commandos, but like I nominally have enjoyed all of the things from it. But it's like...
02:25:05
Speaker
It feels weird at this point. I think mainly the main thing is that it's like all of it is like written by James Gunn. I think we need a little few more cooks in the in the kitchen, which will happen with lanterns because he's i don't think he's the show. Like it's Lindelof's going to be involved. So like I think I think we need more voices there because like that that was one of the weird things about season two a Peacemaker where most of the season is great and then you get to the finale and then there's stuff setting up like Man of Tomorrow which has nothing to do with Peacemaker. I'm like, get that shit out here. I'm trying to watch a Peacemaker show.
02:25:40
Speaker
ah the The one thing I do like about James Gunn's tenure at DC so far is that it does feel like it is an artist forward show like operation at this point.
02:25:51
Speaker
It does feel like there is actually like a stamp on each of the projects. The problem is is, that the only artist forward has been James Gunn, as we've pointed out here. Right. Like, like, let's get some more people in here. Bring Luca Guadagnino back. I don't know what happened. but the It doesn't even have to be Sergeant. I don't care. I didn't even know who Sergeant Rock was until that was an announced. So you you could bring him back for anything. There's tons of gay people in the, in the DC universe. Luca, come on.
02:26:18
Speaker
Get Duncan Jones back. You know, he we know he's not doing anything right. Like just didn't let him do whatever he wants. But the, the thing is is that, uh, My only aversion to these superhero films in the first place was the lack of identity and the inhumane ways in which they're produced.
Hollywood's Current Trends and Economic Challenges
02:26:34
Speaker
Right. It was just assembly line. Yeah. if if If James Gunn is doing it differently in that way, and you like even if I don't vibe with the show itself, like at least on that, like on the other side of it, I can at least respect the ethos in which it's created.
02:26:50
Speaker
Far more respectable than pumping out the Marvel stuff. Oh, absolutely absolutely. And there's like there's things that even if the slate originally changed into maybe there were initially like weirder things that he wanted to to roll out. Like I'm still I'm still interested to see what's to come. Whereas with Marvel, it's like I guess I want to see how big of a train wreck doomsday is like that. That's more of my curiosity.
02:27:14
Speaker
and And just from the cultural a standpoint of like are they gonna get away with it because like because like it's like they already are waning in in supremacy but is robert downey jr and just the pull of event because i'm like the name even name avengers doesn't mean anything anymore like who's on the avengers now fucking falcon ah just some random guys and spider-man's there but let's like like who would like it this it's not like The people cared about those movies because you built up those iterations of those characters.
02:27:49
Speaker
And that's how it's like the Avengers weren't even that. Like if you're like Marvel teams of popularity, like below everyone else, like an x the X-Men were doing cool shit. And they're ah even Fantastic Four. But like Avengers are way down in the notches of like...
02:28:05
Speaker
people people gave a shit about it and people gave a shit in those movies because one they were well cast and then you had like like you built out those those versions of of those characters so audiences could get familiar with them they don't have that here there's no like and i'm not even talking about like the the the building out of of the continual storyline like whatever they're clear they were making it up as they went both times i mean they were They were better at pulling it off seamlessly the first time, but it's that it's all just haphazard now, like driven purely. It's it's it's so transparently driven by the corporate side of it now that i I can't see audiences having that same enthusiasm where it's like, oh, I need to see the conclusion because what's –
02:28:51
Speaker
you go to see Avengers cause you want to see them finally fight Thanos. And the conclusion to that, they are then the cliffhanger like, oh how are they going to get, undo that? But what is, I'm like, Oh, I can't wait to see ah Robert Downey Jr. Doctor Doom. Yeah.
02:29:06
Speaker
ah You know, there there used to be a period, you know, where Hollywood studios had shame. There was a period where, you know, a studio could release a sequel to a movie. It would be financially successful.
02:29:18
Speaker
But because of the word of mouth around it, because people knew it was kind of bullshit. They didn't make another one because that like there were they they knew that it's like we're not going to gain anything from doing this. The problem is, is that marvel Marvel and studios in general just have no shame at this point.
02:29:34
Speaker
And i and the the thing is. And they're too deep in. It's like a gambling thing where it's like you've invested so much at this point that you kind of they just have to keep doubling down of like hoping people bite the next one because they're like, what are we going to do? Make smaller movies like this is not an option.
02:29:50
Speaker
but but But therein lies the rub, too, where it's like, I think that it probably will make some money because it has so many people because there is like all of these brands associated to it. The problem is it's like the diminishing returns will become ever present. And also in the process of making these movies, they're cheaping every single movie star by ro roping them in to return for these things. Yeah. Yeah.
02:30:11
Speaker
let's say Doomsday makes money, right? And Fantastic Four was a letdown and Thunderbolts was a letdown and Deadpool and Wolverine made money. But, you know, it's because of the Deadpool thing more than even superheroes.
02:30:23
Speaker
The reality is they're going to start to just focus more on the giant teams. They're going to focus on how many crossovers can we do? And that will diminish not just the films themselves, but the movie stars attached them as well. So it's like a losing, it's a zero-sum game for everybody involved.
02:30:36
Speaker
If they were smart, they would get out. now and they would wait 10 years 15 years build the brand up then again like reboot it at that that's what they should have done after endgame they got greedy they just thought it was they thought it was gonna last forever and there's like weird yeah they're just like we're gods we could do whatever It's like, I don't think so, man.
02:30:57
Speaker
They fell into the same trap as comic books themselves. They're in the same problem that the comic book industry. And now we're maybe heading into like like the 90s of the comic book industry of like where there was, you know, like when Marvel almost went bankrupt and shit like that. Like that that could be on the I'm not saying they actually will go bankrupt. But in terms of like this may not be.
02:31:21
Speaker
visible like this business model for much longer. already seems like it's not like once you've lost China, you've lost. I keep bringing up China. but yeah it's It's important to bring this up because like I think definitely think that America's influence is waning in all regards. And post covid, there was many reports where it's like we're going to make much less movies now, but they're still making the giant Ted polls that are inexplicably 250 million dollars.
02:31:49
Speaker
that come out like once a month. Like there's no need for that. they they Yeah. Ways in which they spend because like the reality is is that people go to see the movies less because of financial reasons, not because they care about movies less.
02:32:03
Speaker
It's because the ticket prices are more. It's because the gamble of, okay, is this the movie I want to see this weekend is greater. And it's because like... The government was shut down in America last month. Yeah. it was one of the, like, record low October. People ain't got no money because they weren't getting paid. And, in like, there were no SNAP benefits so people couldn't eat. Like, you like, that like.
02:32:26
Speaker
Like really go like, hmm, OK, am I going to spend my paycheck
Success and Appeal of the Avatar Series
02:32:30
Speaker
on my next meal or fucking black phone to like. Right. ah Like, I mean, there's stuff that still will perform, especially on that global scale. Like, yeah, Avatar is going to do gangbusters like. It'll be interesting to see will be actually be more than two. Like it maybe it will be like it'll maybe still cross the bill, but like will be like the least profitable avatar or something. I mean, and and not that that franchise is in danger or anything, but it maybe it won't be. But also that's different than like the other Hollywood franchise, because there is some guy. I do kind of buy to the theory that internationally that plays so well is because America is like the bad. They're like the bad guys in that. So there is something to like, it's not just American exceptionalism propaganda. It's it's like, no, I actually, yeah, fucking colonizers. got get them out of here.
02:33:24
Speaker
Yeah, I think there is something to that. There is something to the and it also the idea that like you can move to this other place and become naturally part of the people and their goals is another thing that sticks out to people I find with Avatar.
02:33:37
Speaker
It's where I think that the the series is also quite messy. Yeah. Oh, oh, the, the yeah, assimilation, brought yeah yeah the kind of thing is, and then this, I think the trailers for next one, there's like, they're doing the whole thing of like, well, what if a human who was still in the human body could breathe like the Pandora air? What does that mean now? And and okay. Yeah.
02:34:01
Speaker
yeah not Like, i'm not sure. Look, I hate the first Avatar movie. I think Avatar 2 is awesome. It's a such a huge upgrade because, like, I could I barely gave a shit the first time around. Like, Jake Sully, this fucking guy.
02:34:16
Speaker
Yeah. you the The amount of people who talk about how great the Avatar series is, they're doing that in retrospect. Like, the people cared about 2 because 2 was that good. And and people always... and And that was, like, a greatest hits of Cameron thing. Because, like, that one, more so than the first one, had, like, their Terminator-esque visuals in certain points. And then you also, the whole finale becomes titanic when they're underwater and and try and have to get out of the sinking ship. And so so it's like...
02:34:45
Speaker
like the So if he can keep capturing that energy and have more weird stuff about how Sigourney Weaver is like the Anakin Skywalker, like like like I'm um'm pro of all that.
02:34:59
Speaker
ah Like it's super zany and goofy. That's when it works in those ways. Avatar 1 was so self-serious. I think that 3 is going in that direction of you know, jokey like 2. Not jokey, but you know. but but But like silly, like almost pulpy, like like like like this is this is something that like if there was like a ah ah paperback from the 50s with like a ah k Navi on it and and you'd be like, yeah, that looks goofy, but there's kind of hardcore. Yeah.
02:35:27
Speaker
Mm-hmm. But it's it's not like exemplarily side like that's what pulp is the main name there of the game here. Right. Like it's it's just dumb fun. I don't really like i don't lose any sleep over Nateri.
02:35:41
Speaker
I don't like I'm not like i don't have any deep connection to these characters. and and And frankly, I don't buy people when they say they do. Like, I think it's just a vehicle for, you know, said pieces. I think it's just ah a good time at the movies. think Paya Kun, or is that the name of the whale? i think, yeah, he he's my best friend. So i won't take any slander against him, but...
02:36:05
Speaker
Hey, I am all on his wavelength. I am okay with him. and I would be fine with a movie of just him and no solis. Like we just do, we're just chilling with him.
02:36:17
Speaker
And then he kind of goes on the land. He starts walking around like, whoa. Maybe you could do like a a Moby Dick, but with Payakin, right? And he's like, ah you know you've got all the humans in the in the Moby Dick situation. Yeah, he knows.
02:36:31
Speaker
I mean, they kind of tried to do that with two, but I didn't care about the Australian guy hunting him. so he was just generic bad guy. But now he's coming back with a claw arm or some kind of robotic arm. So now now I'm into it.
02:36:47
Speaker
Yeah. Like, who knows? It's people have said it's slim pickings for this year that like the movies that have come out aren't that good. I don't know if I agree. i like I don't know if I agree because we've we this is the same year of I mean, one one path or another was just a couple was just a couple of months ago.
02:37:05
Speaker
But then also this is the same year that Sinners and 28 years later came out. Like there's yeah this the weapons. There's studio stuff that's like going even even within the franchises going in weirder directions. Like sure, there's still remnants of like the cape shit that's like, but that's like dying off. So like like that that's not the stuff that I'm walking away from this year remembering. it's It is the the stuff that we just mentioned, like those. like and And of course, like smaller, like there's always going to be good indie movies every year. so yeah Yeah, but people are like talking about... This year have been good. Like there have been a lot of... Like cut stealing. I saw you saw that one recently, I think. or you oh I saw i saw when it when it came out, but I was posting about it. I just have it on. I mean, I still listen to the the score from that. I feel like
Unique Narratives in Recent Films
02:37:50
Speaker
that was undersung when people are talking about best best scores of of the year because that that one's a banger. And we should also be talking about how Liev Schreiber and... um
02:38:04
Speaker
What's what's not Vincent D'Onofrio the Jewish food doc say? It's very funny. Best performances of the year, i have to say. like that those Those dudes rock.
02:38:15
Speaker
they's and They're so awesome. Let's go they should give them... and ah Aronofsky, just keep having fun. You don't need to do some serious stuff. You're going to want to do the whale two next, going to more serious direction.
02:38:31
Speaker
Don't. Do a spinoff about about those brothers. I should do like a horrible series of movies where they're just like one location dramas, but you choose a different animal.
02:38:44
Speaker
Right. Well, ah apparently caught stealing is ah is a, is is a book ah trilogy also. Like I haven't read any of the books, but it's, it's just like this guy's life just keeps shitting on him. Like even after the story in this one, like that, that one had like, you know, ah somewhat ended like, okay, he's finally gets some peace. But like, I would watch more movies of like, no, actually you're still in it, buddy.
02:39:05
Speaker
Yeah. with the superpower to get into car crash it's a good movie it's it's good i liked it i feel like it even escapes the like the spoil whatever no one's listening to this deep into episode spoilers for caught stealing even with the fridging elements i don't even get that upset about it because it's not lazily it didn't feel like like a lazy version of a lot of times where that's done. And it's also everyone around him dies. Like, like I feel like it's not really fridging when it's that if it was just the woman dying for his character development.
02:39:42
Speaker
Yeah, maybe. i mean, sometimes that does happen in good stories still though. Like it's not like trope tropes are you know around because they've worked in the past. It's like their deal. But ah yeah, to me, it's, it's just, it becomes a bit then when everyone started, like, you know, like it's literally everyone around him dies.
02:39:59
Speaker
Yeah, no. ah Yeah, I'm losing my words. i think that you said it all there. All right. Well, yeah, we're at the point where we're losing words. I feel like we've season one of the leftovers.
02:40:12
Speaker
ah Yeah. Two thumbs up. ah And we got more to come from there. It's just it's I'm excited. So ah stay tuned
Podcast Future Plans and Audience Engagement
02:40:22
Speaker
for that further coverage. Probably soon because this show is so watchable that I will, but you know, but within the week we'll be done with season two. Yeah.
02:40:30
Speaker
paul Within the weekend. like i will I will finish it season two very quickly. Not because, like, we're in a rush to record. Because that's just how propulsive it is. Like, the I was like, I care about these people. We were just talking about how you don't give a shit about the people in Avatar. Like, no, these are my friends. Like, I got to see what happens to all them.
02:40:50
Speaker
can't see if Kim kills any more dogs. In fact, there's dog-killing ways. I need to know. Well, he's got that dog in him. That's for sure. that And he's got that dog in his house. He still has that dog. Yeah, he does.
02:41:04
Speaker
what like what a What a beautiful family unit. um Well, ah yeah, on that note, do you have do you have any plugs? I've got ah two set critics. I've got a new episode with them coming out soon. You can check that out. Also, you can follow me at PorlRoloTony.
02:41:21
Speaker
The Larry Fessenden series is concluding soon. So on in Film We Trust, get ready for that. But yeah, that's pretty much it. Okay, cool. Yeah. um Yeah, you follow me at the Doug Files on Twitter.
02:41:33
Speaker
ah And yeah, here we're going there's going more leftovers. You're going to try and cover some cool stuff for Noirvember. And maybe, you know, I'm still in a spooky mood. i'm the Halloween goes year round. So yeah.
02:41:48
Speaker
Look out for some spooky mystery movies, you know, like that without giving giving the game away. But that some some of that coming up soon. ah And then also i did start doing ah yeah ah Tony and I did did a Twitch stream on Halloween Eve. We're...
02:42:05
Speaker
ah whether it's both of us or just me or some combination of people definitely going to be trying to do more of those ah like whether it's movies maybe baby some shows like because like like the shows that we do actual episodes of like I feel like they need to be like of the best tier like like it's like it's it's leftovers like I did some Sopranos episode if they're not the best shows of all time and if you're looking for coverage of them then maybe there'll be a stream where I throw on an episode or something you know that's ah And that's not even a commitment to like, yeah, go stream the whole show. I mean, maybe that's that's not it'll just kind of be whatever whatever we feel like. But check that out at the did the juice tube on ah Twitch.
02:42:47
Speaker
And yeah. Have a good night. Oh, that that sounds good. Yeah, let's do that. Hell yeah. Don't watch it. what we'll We'll do your blind watch through on that. How about that?
02:42:59
Speaker
That sounds fun. Yeah, I'm i'm down to do that. All right. So keep keep an out for that. We'll post and when whenever that'll be in And have a good one, boners.