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What is Sleep Deprivation? POSTPARTUM SERIES (feat. Yasmin @mindful_sleep)
186 Plays2 years ago
In EPISODE 57 I am joined by Yasmin @mindful_sleep who shares the warning signs of sleep deprivation during the postpartum period. She also shares how partners can work as a team to navigate sleeplessness along with practical tips for fathers.
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Transcript
Impact of Sleep Deprivation on Family Well-being
00:00:00
Speaker
how sleep deprivation affects your overall, not just the mom's overall mental health, but the whole entire family. This
Introduction to Therapy for Dads Podcast
00:00:09
Speaker
is a Therapy for Dads podcast. I am your host. My name is Travis. I'm a therapist, a dad, a husband. Here at Therapy for Dads, we provide content around the integration of holistic mental health, well-researched evidence-based education, and parenthood. Welcome.
Navigating Postpartum Phase: Focus on Sleep Challenges
00:00:28
Speaker
So welcome everybody to this week's episode on the therapy for dads podcast. Um, this week I have a special guest and it's part of the prepping and navigating the postpartum phase. And this is going to be one of a few on sleep. Sleep is a big topic. Um,
00:00:46
Speaker
big issue, big mountain that we all have to climb within the postpartum phase. Um, some of
Meet Yasmin Johnston, Pediatric Sleep Consultant
00:00:53
Speaker
which sleep is, uh, or lack of sleep for the matter is completely normal, completely common, just part of bringing a brand new human into the world and various reasons as to why. But, but on this week I have a, again, special guests and her name is Yasmin and I'm excited to have her on to talk about a aspect of sleep and that's specifically sleep deprivation. But before we jump in,
Yasmin's Journey and Motivation in Sleep Consulting
00:01:14
Speaker
welcome, welcome. How are you doing tonight?
00:01:15
Speaker
Thank you. I'm doing great. How are you? I'm great. I'm great. Um, so tell us a little bit about yourself before we jump into this week's topic. Yeah. Well, first I just want to say thank you so much for having me on. I'm really excited to be here talking about this with you today. Um, my name is Yasmin Johnston. I am a pediatric sleep consultant. I'm also a mom of two. I've got two little boys and I started on this journey after my own struggles with sleep deprivation after my second son was born.
00:01:41
Speaker
Located
Integrating Mental Health with Sleep Consulting
00:01:42
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in the Metro Detroit area, I provide sleep support services for families worldwide through one-on-one virtual support. And I'm also working towards my maternal mental health certification. That is one of the biggest reasons why I got into this is just being able to support the mental health of parents and also help them get their sleep back.
00:02:05
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I think
Normalcy and Impact of Postpartum Sleep Deprivation
00:02:06
Speaker
it's such a needed area of expertise and I love that you're doing the mental health piece too because I think they definitely go together hand in hand. They're not separate. They're for sure together. And so I'm wondering how long you've been practicing so far in this field. So I started with the sleep consulting back in 2020. I had my second son in 2019 and dealt with the lack of sleep for about five months.
00:02:28
Speaker
hired a sleep consultant, absolutely loved the experience and realized it was such a needed thing. I didn't realize that so many new moms or new parents were struggling with their child's sleep and so I wanted to be able to provide that support that
00:02:45
Speaker
the sleep consultant I had hired was able to provide for me, for other families. Once you start navigating that and realizing the importance of sleep and getting help, it makes a difference in everyone's life. Absolutely. That's something maybe that my wife and I could have hired. We didn't. We figured it out, but there is some painstakingly things we had to figure out along the way. And looking back now, I'm like, you know what? You might've been good to do that. I think we just didn't think about it. I think when we were having kids, we weren't thinking about a sleep consultant. We're like, this is just, we got to figure it out.
00:03:14
Speaker
So I'm glad you're on and I'm glad we get to talk about this because there's a lot of new parents or parents of, you know, having their second or third that might be able to gain some insight from this conversation. So the first question I want to ask is, well, is lack of sleep normal? Is having lack of sleep normal
Understanding Newborn Sleep Patterns
00:03:30
Speaker
with a newborn?
00:03:30
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I mean, it is definitely to be expected. Like we all go into it knowing that we're going to lose some amount of sleep. Um, how much sleep we lose is kind of dependent on the baby and the support system that you have in place. Lack of sleep is pretty normal part of welcoming home a new baby. Yeah. And, uh, is there a standard amount that you should have?
00:03:53
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So the average adult needs about seven to nine hours of sleep per night. But when you have a new baby and they're needing to wake up to feed every two to three hours, and then if you figure, okay, they wake up, you change their diaper, you feed them, you burp them, then you try to resettle them, get them back down. For some kiddos, this process can take upwards of an hour.
00:04:16
Speaker
So if you're doing that three, four times a night, you're not getting anywhere near that seven to nine hours of needed sleep. And that's expected.
Factors Contributing to Family Sleep Problems
00:04:24
Speaker
Again, that's part of a new new child because as we know, or are figuring out, babies don't sleep on the same pattern, especially in the beginning as adults do, right? They don't have that, you know, 10 o'clock at night, six o'clock in the morning, wake up, right? It'd be nice if they did.
00:04:41
Speaker
Yes, wouldn't it be great if they just came out and they just slept like us? That would solve a lot of problems. Oh my gosh, it's great. Probably him or him. Well, yes, I think a lot of us would. Like, oh, yeah, this is great. I could have...
00:04:56
Speaker
10 more kids. So with this sleep, and what we know, there is a change in a pattern of moms, dads, and baby sleep within the first few weeks, if not months, which takes time. And that's going to be different, I think, for every family. That's going to be different for every baby. And there's different reasons as to why that contributes to the change of sleep. Not just hormones, but I think there's other contributors as well.
00:05:22
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And I guess from your professional experience, what are some of the other contributors of sleep issues that you've seen from your experience? I guess a lot of the other issues or a lot of the contributing factors could
Effects of Sleep Deprivation on Health and Safety
00:05:34
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be the environment. So how the environment is set up for sleep, if it's an optimal environment. We're also looking at like parental response, what they're doing in order to support their child's sleep, education, having background knowledge on
00:05:51
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age-appropriate wake windows, age-appropriate schedules. When baby first comes out, we're just like, okay, eat, sleep, poop, repeat. That's what we do, right? And then as they start- And diapers are in there as well. Diapers are in there as well. Yeah, not just the poop. We got to do the diaper change.
00:06:12
Speaker
But, you know, you're just like on this, on this cycle, right? Because your newborn isn't awake for very long in the beginning. And then their nap could be anywhere from, you know, you could have like a very short sleep cycle of 20 minutes, or they could sleep upwards of three hours and you're like, okay, there's, you know, just no consistency with it, which I think is one of the parts that is the biggest struggle for a lot of new parents is not having that consistency with
00:06:41
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how their sleep cycles go. Yeah. And that's something I could definitely relate to that there was a lack of consistency, especially early on. Um, absolutely. I can relate to that. Um, and so it kind of leads me into kind of the, the topic of this week's episode, which is the sleep deprivation that, um, let's talk about what that is and kind of how that kind of comes into play, especially with a newborn. So, so what is sleep deprivation first and foremost?
00:07:09
Speaker
Yeah, so sleep deprivation is really just when you're not getting the amount of sleep that you need. So if you're a person who typically needs eight hours of sleep each night and you have one night where you only get six hours, you could say technically that you're sleep deprived from last night because you didn't get your normal amount of sleep.
00:07:27
Speaker
Um, the issue with new parents is it's that accumulation of the sleep deprivation or that sleep debt. So we're one person, if they missed out on an hour of sleep the night before they can kind of recover over the next couple of days. But for a new parent, they're constantly getting that lack of sleep each night. And so their sleep deprivation ends up being more of a chronic issue versus just an acute issue. They actually did a study where.
00:07:55
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they found that
Link Between Sleep Deprivation and Depression
00:07:56
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the average new parents lose about 133 nights of sleep in the first year of life. With that sleep deprivation, talking about even just losing one hour of sleep, what they found in another study is that it can take up to four days to recoup that hour of lost sleep. So if you're a new parent who's losing three years of sleep each night, that takes you a long time.
00:08:18
Speaker
Yeah, so I would say no wonder why we're tired and no wonder why it's hard to find a rested feeling or day because it's that compound effect, like you said, of days and days and days and then you don't have four days to recover, right? When do we get to recover? For most parents, right? Especially early on, when are you recovering to catch up?
00:08:37
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You can't. Especially if you got other kids. In my experience, we have it. Yeah, especially with the kids. Even with one kid, in my experience, there is no recovery time unless someone made it a point to give someone sleep. And even then, that's not always doable, depending on the baby. So sleep deprivation, would we say there's some, there's definitely some level of normalcy that we're all going to be somewhat sleep deprived within the first days, weeks, months of the baby, right? Because it like in, according to your definition is that, hey, even missing an hour is sleep deprived, depending on what your normal sleep schedule is needing.
00:09:07
Speaker
And so most of us are. And so I guess is there first a problem with being sleep deprived? Is there an issue with that? Does it cause any impact on us? Oh yeah, there is a massive impact. Um, the sleep deprivation, you know, it's comparable to driving drunk. So if you are sleep deprived and trying to drive, you know, it could have the same exact outcome.
00:09:30
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There's also other effects such as it makes you moodier. Like if we don't get the sleep we need, we're crankier the next day. You're clumsier, you're more forgetful, you have a decreased sex drive, decreased mental stability.
00:09:47
Speaker
So that's where we see that increase in like postpartum anxiety, postpartum depression and other PMADS. There's also,
Impact on Relationships and Marriage
00:09:55
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it can cause an increase in appetite or weight gain, cause you're just like constantly shoving sugar and carbs in your face to keep yourself awake. Motivation, it really affects our motivation. You know, like if we're tired, we don't want to get up and do all the things that we need to be doing. And even just that overall ability to focus.
00:10:14
Speaker
on simple tasks. So when you're sleep deprived, not only does your performance at work go down if you're going back to work because you can't focus on these tasks, but even simple things in your household, you know, trying to do things for the baby or organize some things. It's hard to focus on those when you're so tired.
00:10:31
Speaker
Yeah, it sounds, you know, as I'm hearing this list that you just listed off, you know, some of these sound, and you even mentioned, you know, PPD, post-partum depression, but these sound like even some of the symptoms of just depression, like major depressive episode, you know, concentration issues, appetite changes, irritability, motivation, energy, focus, like these are all symptoms of depression. And so I think there's an overlap between acute or sleep deprivation with depression. And sometimes it could feel like you said, it can maybe enhance it, like from having PPD or P, you know,
00:11:01
Speaker
or postpartum anxiety, this lack of sleep could also kind of multiply or magnify, so to speak, the symptoms because now this other comes through to rein factor. And so it's very, it can really cause some strain. In fact, I remember, you know, you speak to moodiness and I'll share a real quick snippet that with my wife and I with, especially with our first, we rarely slept. It was one of the hardest, probably hardest things we've ever done. He had colic and
00:11:26
Speaker
just was difficulty in sleeping and so I remember numerous times either coming in my wife was crying on the floor or I'd be on the floor crying because just so tired and also the irritability that we would even get irritated with each other but not knowing why there's no reason we didn't do anything against each other but my patience level was shot
00:11:45
Speaker
what normally I'd be able to be fine with, it's like anything. I'd have no patience and just be angry and be upset and frustrated. And my tolerance was really low. And so I think that was mostly because I was completely and utterly sleep-deprived. In fact, we both were. And so I'm wondering, with the clients you've worked with, what impact have you seen it having on relationships between within partners?
00:12:08
Speaker
Oh, it's, I mean, it has a really big impact. I would say that that's one of the top things that, um, you know, that they express concern about is, you know, we, we always have like an initial call before we get things going or find out if working together is a good fit. But one of the things that they always, um, bring up is how this lack of sleep has impacted their marriage or their relationships saying like, you know, we don't even sleep in the same bed anymore.
00:12:36
Speaker
We're not intimate anymore. We argue all the time. Um, you know, we're just bickering over every little thing and it really does have such a drastic impact on that relationship. And once they're able to start getting that sleep again, it's one of the first things that they say has improved. They're like, Oh my gosh, this is amazing. Like I have time for myself. I have time for my partner. Like we're not.
00:13:01
Speaker
Snipping at each other all day long like we're able to be back to sleeping in a same room together like this is so amazing Yeah, is there a difference you've seen in men and women with sleep deprivation and how it manifests or how it appears? So the one thing I've noticed is that
00:13:18
Speaker
With women, we tend to say we can do it all. We're like, OK, yeah, I'm tired, but I've got this. I'm just going to do it. I'm just going to handle it and push through. But the symptoms that I find
Gender Differences in Sleep Deprivation Effects
00:13:32
Speaker
that show up in the majority of the families that I work with or the moms that I work with is they're struggling with a PMAD or they're having that irritability or the moodiness, the decreased sex drive with
00:13:47
Speaker
with dads, we're still trying, like I'm still trying to get them to be more open to talk about it, you know, with, so for dads, they say that there's about 10% of dads who have postpartum depression. Um, or that's what's reported, right? But they estimate 25%.
00:14:07
Speaker
So like even when I am on these calls with families, I'm not getting as much information from the dads as to how it's affecting them. They just kind of say like, well, yeah, you know, like I've had some that'll say, yes, I've noticed that I've been more depressed or anxious or, you know, short, but they don't, when I go through the list, they're not as willing to give me as much insight as to what they're experiencing.
00:14:32
Speaker
Yeah. So there's still this wall barrier between dads and even sharing this that most likely they're experiencing it, but even talking about it. Right. And that's, I would say that's common just in my industry as well, that definitely men under report for various, you know, societal, you know, I think, uh, societal reasons or how they've been trained or socialized to talk about these things. And so I think that's absolutely right. That's definitely under reported in men.
00:14:57
Speaker
And I think what I'm hearing is there's not really a difference. Um, it's just more about a lack of reporting or feeling comfortable with reporting possibly. Yeah. It's going to have a, you know, various impacts on different persons depending on just who and how they're wired that you might see someone be more irritable. Maybe someone's again, like snacking more, maybe someone else's, you know, it's hard to focus and concentrate. Maybe they're bringing down
Holistic Support and Self-care Strategies
00:15:18
Speaker
and more moody, more, you know, lack of patience or maybe all the above, but it's going to, it's kind of like very different person to person, right? It's not going to be the same thing with everyone, right?
00:15:26
Speaker
Exactly. Yeah. I mean, there's the, the list of the common symptoms, which, you know, I'm sure you, like you mentioned previously, the symptoms of sleep deprivation and postpartum depression or depression in general, they're very, very much the same, very similar. Right. And when you have
00:15:42
Speaker
two patients that are struggling with postpartum depression, they're not exhibiting the same symptoms necessarily as the other person. Same thing with the families that I work with. It's, you know, I can go through that list and they're like, oh yeah, I'm going, I'm dealing with the top three. And then the next person is like, yeah, I've got like the bottom four on that list, but they are kind of, you know, they're showing some of those symptoms to some varying degree.
00:16:06
Speaker
Yeah, it's very much person-to-person, client-to-client, and it's unique to each individual, but it's going to somewhere fall along the lines of these kind of symptoms, that there are specific things that sleep deprivation does impact. And so when you find when working with a client or clients when they are sleep-derived, what are some things you do
00:16:26
Speaker
or can do, what are some ways you address it? Um, how do you help them? How do you help them as like a couple? If they're, if it's impacting the relationship, what are some things you find helpful, um, to help them navigate this season of kind of sleep deprivation? So the process that I use with families, I utilize a holistic process when it comes to supporting them through sleep. Um, so there's a lot of education, you know, background information to begin with.
00:16:54
Speaker
And then once we start making those improvements with their child's sleep, we also start focusing on things like self-care.
00:17:01
Speaker
a higher level of self care, not like a just go take a bath or just go do a face mask. I'm really having these families actually send over a questionnaire for them to really dive into themselves and what's really important to them, what their core values are now that they've become a parent. And
Educating Parents on Sleep Deprivation
00:17:20
Speaker
then also bringing back that time where they're doing something that truly means something to them. Because if we're not feeding into ourselves, it's hard for us to feed into our relationship. It's hard for us to feed into our children.
00:17:31
Speaker
So how partners can overall support each other through this difficult time where you're not getting the sleep that you need. Building that teamwork really makes a big difference. And also the communication factor, like being able to communicate with your partner. Hey, listen, you know, I had a really rough day today. I'm going to need some extra support going into the nighttime. If you can allow me.
00:17:53
Speaker
a certain window where I can actually get a little bit of sleep. Another thing that I do with that relationship building is talking about bringing back in some date nights. You know, once you are getting some of that rest that you need, bringing in those date nights, whether they're out and about or at home, finding creative ways to do that so that now that you have the rest, you can beat into yourself and your partner.
00:18:19
Speaker
Yeah. And I'm wondering with that too, um, when people do come, how, how many were a rough percentage of people that just due to lack of understanding of what sleep deprivation is, like how, what is the percentage of people that that helps them to understand this is actual seat deprivation? I would say pretty much every like a hundred percent, you know, most of them are coming into it and they're like, I know I'm tired, but like, that's it. You don't realize that all of these other things that they're experiencing throughout the day, all these other symptoms,
00:18:47
Speaker
are direct symptoms of that sleep deprivation. And how have you seen that help them once they have that kind of education understanding of, Oh, this is sleep deprivation. It helps them be more okay with reaching out for help. Like they know that they're at a level that's not sustainable and they, it's like all of a sudden they become more okay or on board with, you know, whether it's sleep training or reaching out to somebody for support.
00:19:12
Speaker
so that they can get more sleep. Cause when we talk about it, like how sleep deprivation affects your overall, not just the mom's overall mental health, but the whole entire family. You know, if mom is sleep deprived and struggling with any of these symptoms, it directly impacts their partner and their children. And when they hear about it that way, it's almost like an eye opener.
00:19:34
Speaker
I mean, it really is impacting it. Like now that I think about it, and oftentimes we're just too tired to piece all of this together. I mean, I've
Supporting the Podcast: Donations and Resources
00:19:41
Speaker
been there. I was too tired to figure out that the lack of sleep from my second son was affecting how I was with my husband, how I was with my older child, how I was with my dogs. You know, it affects everything.
00:19:54
Speaker
Yeah, I agree, it does affect, it's everything, because sleep is, in fact, it's funny, you know, talking about sleep, you know, one of the first things, even in my profession as a therapist, I look at is, how are you sleeping? One of the very first things I assess when I'm looking at people with depression or panic symptoms, no matter what it is, one of the things I assess is, what does their sleep hygiene look like? Are they getting restful sleep?
00:20:17
Speaker
And so it's I think more so when we have a newborn is well The reality is we're gonna be sleep deprived like that is first and foremost, right? Like I almost like I feel like education needs to be done more So like you know, but you don't really know and now for a short break
00:20:31
Speaker
So if you're looking for ways to support the show and my YouTube channel, head on over to buy me a copy.com forward slash therapy for dads. There you can make a one
Class Proposal for Parents on Sleep Deprivation
00:20:39
Speaker
time donation or join the monthly subscription service to support all that I'm doing at the intersection of fatherhood and mental health.
00:20:48
Speaker
And all the proceeds go right back into all the work that I'm doing, into production, and to continue to grow the show to bring on new guests. So again, head on over to buymeacoffee.com forward slash therapy for dads. Thanks. And let's get back to the show. In fact, let me ask you this question. What do you think if we could, you know, have a class for expected parents, what are like the top three things you'd want them to know about sleep deprivation during the newborn phase that maybe we don't know about?
00:21:18
Speaker
This is, so you're speaking my language here. I so wish like, and that's something that I want to do is have this class. That's part of what you, you know, you take the hospital tour, you do the car seat class and all of that, but like you need a sleep deprivation class. Like you need this class before the baby comes so you can know what to look out for. So a class that would,
00:21:47
Speaker
help parents develop a postpartum plan for sleep, teaching them the different resources that are available and the different ways that they can support each other to ensure that each parent is getting the rest that they need, and communication on how to talk about your sleep needs with your partner. One thing that I run into a lot is like moms will say,
00:22:08
Speaker
you know, my partner works, they work all day. So they have to get, and it's like, well, so do you. And you don't get a lunch break or, you know, a coffee break or any of that. Like you are sun up to sun down and then you're on during the night too. Like you're working as well and you need that rest. Both of you need it. How to communicate with each other. And then also giving parents
00:22:31
Speaker
basic steps on how to create good sleep hygiene for their new baby, and then a list of the signs and symptoms to look out for. And I think when both parents are aware of those signs and symptoms, that can be really beneficial because they can start, oh, okay, you know, I see my partner's been a little bit moodier, a little bit more irritable lately.
00:22:52
Speaker
Gosh, what's their sleep been like? Like, yeah, the baby was up 10 times last night. All right, what can I do to support my partner? So I think like that support, the education on what sleep deprivation looks like and how to create that good sleep hygiene from the get-go, I would love to have in a class.
00:23:12
Speaker
Yeah, I would
Teamwork in Parenting Through Sleep Challenges
00:23:13
Speaker
totally recommend that class to everybody, because I feel like that is something that's not really fully talked about. You know, you mentioned the car seat class, you know, the day of, baby coming class, and I think those are important, but the more and more, well, after having three kids and
00:23:28
Speaker
The more I talk with people, I think there's certain things that are important that we need to address, like what is our sleep plan? What does it look like for us? What does it look like for a family who is solely breastfeeding versus solely bottle feeding versus maybe
00:23:44
Speaker
they do both, right? How does that impact sleep and how do we, and it goes back to the plan of how do we plan for sleep because that's gonna look different from family to family, right? But still, and I like what you said earlier is team, the importance of team. And that just kind of like in my mind right now is like how important is team in this phase?
00:24:01
Speaker
so important, so, so important. And when you look at it, like, I mean, I know it's tough because for a lot of families, you know, you have the baby and there's not a good paternity leave, right? So their partner is going back to work so fast. For me, I remember I ended up with an emergency C-section with my first kiddo. I was in the hospital for five days. We came home. It was like two days later, my husband went back to work. Oh, wow.
00:24:30
Speaker
And I'm sitting there like, I can barely lift this baby, let alone do all the other things that need to get done around here. So having that plan together as well, like, okay, you're back at work, but like, what can you still do to help out in the household? What can I do to support you with your sleep and your job? Having that teamwork, having that plan right from the get go sets families up for much better success.
00:24:54
Speaker
And some with the team, you know, and I agree, I think team is so important as well. And I found that incredibly beneficial with my wife and I. You know, we talk with couples about this all the time, is that, you know, you guys are a team. And especially within this newborn phase, like more so. And to remind yourself, and I
Variability in Family Sleep Challenges
00:25:13
Speaker
can't count how many times when we realized how, when we were sleep deprived, how much we came back to, and we actually made sleep deprivation the enemy, not each other. Like that's the enemy.
00:25:22
Speaker
It's like, you know, we're, it's sleep deprivation. This is not us. Like, this is not how we are. And that helped us. We would bring humor into it as well when we were just done. It's like, this is not who we are. You know, going back to what you said earlier that, you know, once you start to sleep more, you start to think clear. But when you're sleep-derived, you can't, you can't think clearly. It's, you're clouded. Your, your, your emotions are high. It's,
00:25:42
Speaker
I mean, that's why it's a form of torture, right? I mean, that's why... 100%. That's people torture people by not letting them sleep. There's a reason. Some families do have it harder, and there's nothing they can necessarily actually do about it, to some degree, and maybe you could speak on that. Or some people have, I don't want to say easier, but maybe their baby does sleep more quickly. Maybe they don't have colic. Maybe they have more family support who could come in and help out. Or some families don't have that. They don't have family support. Maybe they have...
00:26:12
Speaker
you know, something else contributing factors that are causing sleep that they just have to get through in time is really the, the, the win, right? That I have to give it time and eventually that time wins. I don't know if you could speak on that at all about the differences from families that have a lot of support versus barely any. If you've seen a difference within those families. Yeah. I mean, there's definitely a big difference, you know,
00:26:30
Speaker
If you have a good support system, like grandparents that want to come over or friends that are coming over to help out, or if you have the financial ability to hire a postpartum doula or a night nanny, these can really have a drastic impact on the quality of sleep that you're getting. Whereas other families may not have those kinds of resources or they live far from family.
00:26:57
Speaker
Let's say you've got a military family who has moved clear across the country from anybody that they know and just welcomed this new baby and they don't have those resources. It's really hard. And so that's also where I love how sleep consulting or sleep coaches are coming more into play because it is a great resource for families that may not have
00:27:23
Speaker
a good support system. There's so much knowledge out there online now. You can get books to help you with figuring out your child's sleep. You can get courses or guides, things like this to help you problem solve.
00:27:37
Speaker
So while that may work for many families, then we also have the families that their kiddos are just really, they've got something else contributing to their sleep that just really makes it difficult. Like you mentioned the colic or reflux or another health condition. And my heart totally breaks for these families when you're just battling against
00:28:00
Speaker
so many layers trying to figure out how to get your family to sleep, you know, allergies, things like that. I actually have a client right now that I'm working with that we're figuring out that their kiddo is not sleeping because of a lactose sensitivity.
00:28:15
Speaker
It's like you've peeled through all the layers. You can't figure out why. And you've brought in all these support systems. And it's just tough because it does vary from baby to baby. You have your unicorn sleepers. You have your rough sleepers. Yeah. Yeah.
Challenges for Single Parents and Survival Mode
00:28:31
Speaker
And I think that's, I think it's helpful for especially new parents. So even maybe parents coming with their second is that first.
00:28:37
Speaker
every baby's different, right? And you have unicorn sleepers and that's not everybody. You have, you know, unicorn rough sleepers, you have, you have all these other contributing factors. I think for some new, you know, I remember if I was being a new parent, like you don't, you don't know the end. Like what, what is this? Right? And remember with our first finding out it was colic and everything and realizing it's like,
00:28:56
Speaker
Oh, it's colic. And while there's some fix to that, some of it is just time. I remember it's like time. I mean, part of it was time, but there's things we can do and it helped for sure. But I mean, as a first-time parent, if you knew that, it's like if I had the perspective, it's like, okay, I know this will end, but when you're a first-time parent, you don't know. You don't know. And I remember being there like, will this end? Will we sleep? And
00:29:17
Speaker
How do we navigate all these things? And I remember at times being discouraged because you just don't know. You don't know, like, is there a light at the end of the tunnel? You know, looking back, it's like, yeah, there was a light. Absolutely. And that probably helps knowing the first time, you know, knowing maybe having a class on what sleep deprivation and what are some things we can do about it.
00:29:37
Speaker
And how do we work as a team, like you said, I think your class would be great. I think you should, you know, not that you need my permission, but you should totally do it. You should do a class and get it out there. Make that normal for people to take it as part of their, you know, baby prep. You know, like, while car seats are important, all those, you know, how to swaddle babies, these are all important things. But I think of certain things like this, and this is one of them that I think, man, if it was talked about more, I think would help a lot of new families.
00:30:03
Speaker
have perspective so when they're in it it's like oh I remember oh that this is sleep deprivation I have more awareness now and I could talk about this and realize how do we have a plan because we've talked about it
00:30:14
Speaker
Um, whether you're a bottle feeding family or breastfeeding family or some in between, or if you have a BBS colic or no colic. Like I think if you have the conversation, it could really help, uh, kind of mitigate a lot of unneeded suffering. And I think that's the biggest is because you're so tired and it's so hard when you're exhausted and you know how defeated you could feel when you just want to sleep and it could be like torture. I remember those days. It's like, wow, this feels like torture. Um, I remember.
00:30:41
Speaker
Well, so my first one, he was my unicorn sleeper. My second one was my awful sleeper. And even with knowing that like sleep will get better, you know, like seeing what other people have gone through, I still felt like I could not see that light at the end of the tunnel and wished that I would have had more education on sleep and what to do and how to support my baby and, and how to ask for support. Um,
00:31:10
Speaker
I did actually co-author a mental health ebook with a couple of other postpartum professionals. Um, so of course my section's all on sleep. Um, but you know, this is an ebook where it may not be available to everybody, right? So in order to get it more available or have this kind of information available to more people doing a class like that, I just, I think it should be a standard.
00:31:36
Speaker
when it comes to preparing for baby, like what doctors are recommending versus just the other courses or classes that they do recommend we take. That'll be in the course. Yeah, I think it's a good thing. I think a lot of things I find, even in the mental health world, is I find it's just not talked about enough. You know, it's not in our classes, you know, or in schooling enough, you know, how we're educated.
00:31:59
Speaker
And so we get to these places in life when these are really important things and we just don't know about it. And so you know, and then you have to do research, right? And so as I'm thinking about kind of this conversation so far and sleep deprivation and part of it is completely normal and given the circumstance of having a new baby, you will be sleep deprived. Now to what degree it's going to be different from every family because
00:32:21
Speaker
It is different. There's no one-size-fits-all, right? But it's assessing what are the needs, what's the environment, you know, what's going on in this family. Do they have support? No support. And I always think of the single parents. I don't know how they do it, if I'm honest. Every time I hear of single parents, I'm like, you guys are just, you women, predominantly. And sometimes it is men, single-parent men, but predominantly women. It's like, they're superheroes. I mean,
00:32:43
Speaker
I have a partner that I could share stuff with and I can help out and it's hard. I don't know how single parents do it. I don't. I don't. I can't. My mind can't wrap around it. I know they do it, but I don't know how they do it. I think they just like this
Encouraging Father Participation in Sleep Support
00:32:56
Speaker
reserve of strength somewhere that they pull up and but also there's the give and take, you know, of realizing there's certain things I gotta let go.
00:33:05
Speaker
Oh, totally. Yeah. And they, I just, yeah, I just all power to what they do. They just blow my mind every day. But I think, you know, in the end, it's, we're all, it's kind of survival mode. In fact, we, we made a joke and we called it the cave, you know, the six month cave. We're in the six months survival cave. And that's how my wife and I navigated. It's like, yep, this is the six months survival cave. And so we would go back to that, have some humor and
00:33:27
Speaker
laugh about it you know and actually how do we support because with our family it was breastfed only and we tried I tried every bottle you could think of our kids just wouldn't take the bottle believe it or not and so we just we it was really hard and I tried cuz I would like I want to get up and
00:33:43
Speaker
But what I did was I'd get up and I'd always change every diaper. I'd get up and I'd be there to put the baby back down. If baby would let me, sometimes baby wouldn't. It's just sometimes the reality. But I would, I'd get up and change diapers, put baby down, re-swallow, do it. So at least there was some, I would do something. I would help out in some way because going back to team is like, this is how we found as a team, I can contribute and help out. I would also always let her sleep in in the morning because I'd take the first morning shift and like, hey, you sleep.
00:34:13
Speaker
You know, I know baby's been fed. I can take this. You can sleep longer. And so we found ways to navigate it as best we could as a team. Because I think team, team, team is so important in having conversations and supporting each other and understanding. And if you were to encourage maybe the men you've worked with, if you could speak some truth to them and maybe some themes you've seen, what would you want to say to the fathers you've worked with around this topic? How would you encourage them?
00:34:38
Speaker
So I know a lot of the time fathers can feel discouraged. Like they don't know what they can do to help and they're not quite sure how to ask. Um, I think taking that first initial step, whether, you know, baby's not here yet, or even a baby is three months old saying, Hey, let's create a plan how we can get better sleep.
Solutions and Timelines for Sleep Issues
00:35:00
Speaker
You know, taking that first initial step, I think is going to be,
00:35:05
Speaker
huge for their partner, letting them know that you care about their sleep and you want to find a way to work together so that both of you are getting that good sleep that you need. And then like you mentioned with how you guys handled the night feeds and stuff, we did the same thing. My boys were breastfed too and so knowing that there are things like that, even if your partner is breastfeeding, there are still ways that you can support them so that they can get even just a
00:35:33
Speaker
few extra minutes of sleep by being that person who gets the baby, changes the diaper, does the burping, puts them back down. And then when you get to that point where the night feeds are a little bit more regulated, but let's say baby's still having some night wakes, if you're able to be that person that helps to get the baby back down in between feeds.
00:35:52
Speaker
so that you're kind of splitting the responsibility of those wakeups during the night and then helping out on the weekends too. But I think really just knowing that while us moms want to try to act like, we want to try to be the person who takes on all the things. We don't want to put responsibility on anyone. Just know that sometimes we try to be stronger than we need to be and it's hard to ask for help or support.
00:36:20
Speaker
But if we've got you on the outside recognizing that we need a little bit of extra help with some of the things, you know, baby wise or around the house or sleep, it's going to mean so much. Yeah. It's really going to mean so, so much. And just knowing you have someone who's on your team during the hardest stage of new parenthood. Like you said, six month cave. I mean, I, I refer to it as being in the trenches when I talk with families.
00:36:49
Speaker
Listen, you are literally on the front line. You are in the trenches. This is the hardest thing you're going to, you know, it's just not having that sleep is incredibly hard, but you will get out. You will get out of the trenches, especially if you're supporting each other.
00:37:06
Speaker
Yeah, and I love that with, you know, sharing with men is that, hey, take initiative that it's a team, guys. You're a team. And how do you support your team members? Well, finding ways to navigate this and help out with where you can and when you can. Because I think in some senses, some men, and I'm not saying it's all their fault, but I think sometimes men still get stuck in there like, well, I can't do anything with this. This is, you know, mom's job or...
00:37:29
Speaker
This is their thing and I have to work, right? But that goes very much against that it's about team. Part of the team is that we carry the load together, right? I think that's where some men can wake up is, hey, I get it. You got to work. I get it. And you might have a demanding job. I get it. But again, if you're a team, how do you support your team member? And saying that it's all up to them is not, I would say not supporting your team member. I must say that just straight up. That's not supporting your team member at all.
00:37:54
Speaker
That's in fact, you're leaving your team member by themselves and you're kind of off, you're kind of ditching the team. We got to support each other, especially during this. And there is an end to it. That's the whole key with seed deprivation. The whole point is there's an end to this. It doesn't last forever. And what is the, you know, as you look at your statistics and what you've worked with, what is kind of the average timeframe roughly for this kind of phase for most families?
00:38:20
Speaker
You know, I wish I could say there was like a real definitive timeframe because I think that would be easier for parents to hear to know like, Oh, by four months, it's better by six months, it's better. But there's so many other factors that come into play. I mean, I have families that come to me and say, you know, Oh my gosh, my baby is nine months old and has never slept through the night. And I do, you know, and then I have other families who are like, okay, you know, it's
00:38:50
Speaker
been three months of not sleeping, let's get to work here and start making improvements. So it's really about when you're willing to take, obviously in the newborn stage, it's going to be what it is going to be. There are things that you can do to help promote good quality sleep, but majority of newborns are still going to wake up throughout the night.
00:39:12
Speaker
Which is normal. Yeah, perfectly normal. Just letting parents know that when you're ready to take those steps, if you don't have the lovely unicorn sleeper, when you're ready to take those steps,
00:39:25
Speaker
to start working on your child's sleep that shortly thereafter, like for my families, I tell them, listen, assuming we don't run into any other speed bumps within two weeks, we should be getting much, much better sleep. So once you start taking those steps, you can know that the end is very near when it comes to the sleep deprivation.
00:39:45
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah.
Conclusion: Addressing Sleep Issues and Resources
00:39:46
Speaker
And I like that because I think it's very realistic that there is no average, but there is an end and it's better understanding of the, what is your family's unique circumstances? What are your needs? Um, where are you at and how do we help you find that path? Kind of navigate out of the woods, out of the cave, out of the trenches. Um, cause there is an end. It is just different for every family.
00:40:05
Speaker
And so even to hear that, I think for some families is helpful. Like there is an end. It's just, it's not a standard, like it's two months, because that's the problem. I think with social media is that we see social media, we see, you know, influence, we see things out there. And I think we, we natural for all of us to compare saying, well, what the heck, you know, they're doing this, they're doing this and it's working for them. And I think there isn't a one size fits all.
00:40:25
Speaker
No. And yeah, with, you know, with social media or your friend or your neighbor, you hear about their baby sleeping through the night at eight weeks or 12 weeks. So hard not to compare. I mean, I did it with my own children. You know, I was like, Well, what the heck? Your brother was sleeping through the night at 11 weeks. Why aren't you sleeping through the night? What's wrong? What am I doing?
00:40:47
Speaker
And that's something that is, um, that I hear a lot as parents are coming to, I'm doing something wrong. I'm messing my baby up because they're not sleeping through the night. No, you're not. You're doing what you got to do to survive during this very difficult time. And it's not that you're doing anything wrong. It's just your baby, you know, we just got to figure out how to help your baby sleep. Like it's different for every child. One method works for baby a and baby B.
00:41:15
Speaker
is not responsive to that method and you got to figure out something completely different for them. Right. I love that you said that. I think that's, you know, a takeaway from today's conversation is that stop blaming yourself. What's wrong with me? Stop comparing, which is not, I did it too. I remember comparing to people. It's like they're baby sleeping. It's natural to compare, but the comparison doesn't actually help you any. It makes you feel worse about yourself.
00:41:37
Speaker
So I think that's number one is let go of comparing, but actually look at your needs as a family and your circumstance per baby, per kid, and per life context because your life context with baby 1a might be different with baby B, C, D, E, F, G, you know, however many you got, might be different. I love that you bring life context because yeah, what's happening in your life at those two different points can be so different.
00:42:00
Speaker
And some things you have control over and some things you don't. Colic, for us, we looked at all things. We had no control over, like, it happening. It just happened. We looked at all things that we can contribute. We looked at all things. We eliminated none of that. We did all that within our control.
00:42:18
Speaker
And some things you just, you have no control over, you get this, okay, how do we navigate this, I think, as best we can? How do we help as best we can? I think sometimes that is the answer, is it's a waiting game. And I know that, you know, with at least what the research college just starts to go away at a certain time, and there is an average there that it does start to kind of fix itself or correct itself. But in the beginning, there's certain things you just can't control.
00:42:41
Speaker
And so as kind of a final closeout, again, the themes I'm thinking of today is teamwork is big, stop comparing yourself, good education around sleep deprivation, you know, how do we help support each other in this phase and our context and that we're working together as a unit that we are, everything impacts everyone else in our family unit. If mom's not getting sleep, it's going to affect dad and vice versa and your work and your kids and your dogs, like you said earlier,
00:43:09
Speaker
It affects everything and that it is a phase. We will get out of it, but I think there are ways with this conversation that we could more effectively navigate this and I think maybe lessen some of the difficulties and strengthen some of the bond and connection with each other within our family. And so with that said, how can we find you? Where are you? How do people reach out for you for support if needed? You know, can you share some of those details?
00:43:35
Speaker
Yeah. Um, so my website is mindful sleep consulting.com. And then you can find me on Instagram and Facebook, um, at mindful underscore sleep. Um, on my website, there's a contact form. If you feel like you're in need of support when it comes to your child's sleep, you can just complete that form and I'll be in contact with you to set up a call. I do a complimentary consultation for every family. Um, so it's about a 30 minute call where we.
00:44:01
Speaker
You know, we talk about your child's sleep struggles, what your goals are for their sleep and how I can support your family. Um, yeah. Yeah. Well, thanks for coming on and I'm going to share all these links, everyone listening. They're going to be in the details. Um, that'll be clickable to take you to all of the places. Um, and I appreciate you coming on and talking about sleep deprivation and the power of sleep as well as some things that we can do about it and education. Thank you so much for having this important conversation.
00:44:29
Speaker
Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, have a great day. You too. Thanks for joining and listening today. Please leave a comment and review the show. Dads are tough, but not tough enough to do this fatherhood thing alone.