Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
EMDR, Bilateral Stimulation, and Mental Wellness: Introducing Dharma Dr (feat. Brad Mosell)
118 Plays4 months ago
Welcome to another enlightening episode of The Integrated Man Project! Today, we dive deep into the transformative realm of mental health with our special guest, Brad Mosell.
Brad Mosell is the CEO of Dharma Dr, a groundbreaking company based in Boise, Idaho, dedicated to making bilateral stimulation accessible to anyone, anytime, anywhere. Brad's journey through personal struggle led him to discover the therapeutic potential of EMDR and bilateral stimulation. Fueled by a passion for making healing tools available in nonclinical settings and resource-scarce areas, he developed the innovative "Tabs" device, which integrates Eastern meditation practices with Western psychological techniques.
HIGHLIGHTS:
1. **Integration and Healing:** Brad Mosell shares his insights on the pursuit of integration, as opposed to balance, and how bilateral stimulation through EMDR has been pivotal in both his personal and professional life.
2. **Dharma Dr Tabs:** Travis and Brad delve into the design and functionality of the Dharma Dr device, including its wireless, user-friendly "Tabs" and the connectivity options through its accompanying app.
3. **Accessibility and Impact:** The conversation highlights the importance of making mental health tools more accessible. Brad emphasizes the potential applications of the device for various populations, including students, first responders, and individuals with PTSD, and the effort to reduce the barriers to mental health care.
How can mental health practitioners and innovators like Brad Mosell ensure that tools for bilateral stimulation and EMDR are both accessible and effectively integrated into various nonclinical settings to reach a broader audience, especially in resource-scarce areas?
Join us as we unpack the healing power of bilateral stimulation, the compassionate design of the Dharma Dr Tabs, and the mission to make mental health tools more user-friendly and readily available.
Plus, Brad gives listeners an exclusive discount code for their first purchase on dharmadr.com. Whether you're a mental health professional or someone seeking inner peace, this episode is brimming with insights and practical solutions to help you on your journey. Tune in and transform with us!
Grab Your Tabs with My Affiliate Link:
BUY NOW
JOIN THE MAILING LIST & GET INVOLVED!
WATCH ON YOUTUBE:
Connect and Support Brad:
IG: mydharmadr
Web: dharmadr.com
Connect and Support Travis:
YouTube: Travis Goodman
Instagram: @integratedmanproject
Check out the Website: TBD
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Overview
00:00:00
Speaker
Everybody I want to welcome you to this week's episode of the integrated man project podcast and I want to give a quick update that I record this episode about a month ago or so and since the recording with Brad from Dharma doctor I've had a chance to play with these tabs for EMDR with clients and use them Gosh, I came at least 50 times by now. I've used them myself and I want to say that this is the product for you. um This episode is all about interviewing Brad from Dumber Doctor who shares about his journey about creating tabs or you might know them as tappers that create bilateral stimulation. And so this is great for clinicians and therapists who are EMDR certified or practice EMDR.
00:00:42
Speaker
and they want kind of some hardware for biolateral stimulation that's not a light bar, that's not their hand, but it's something that people hold. In fact, they look like this. They're great. They come in this this little case here and you just activate them kind of like this and they turn on and they're really great and you can control them through the app. There's an app on the phone. And what I love about these, one of the Well, one thing I love about these is that you can do this virtually. So if I have a client who's on a video conference call, they have their own tabs at home, I can control the tempo, the intensity from my phone virtually, which is a game changer. That's one of the things I think that I found difficult doing EMDR virtually is that I'm limited to
00:01:25
Speaker
only certain forms of bile stimulation, and this is a game
Dharma Doctor: Mission and Background
00:01:29
Speaker
changer. So I stand by this product, and if you're interested, if you're a therapist, clinician wanting to grab a pair of these, or if you're just a client who wants to grab these as well to help reduce anxiety, stress, help with meditation, things like that, go ahead and click on my affiliate link below for a discount for you. It's in the description. um Anyway, without further ado, let's jump into this week's episode with Brad, where we kind of do a deep dive, sharing his story, his journey, and kind of what's coming up with the Dharma doctor. So without further ado, let's jump in.
00:02:04
Speaker
Welcome, everybody, to this week's episode of the Integrated Man Project podcast. I'm excited to have this guest on um for numerous reasons. But before we jump into all those reasons, I just want to welcome Brad to the show. Hey, Brad, how are you doing this evening? Great to be here, Travis. Thanks for having me. So can you tell us just a quick bit of who you are, what you're doing, where you're located, stuff like that? Yeah, the name's Brad Moselle. I am in Boise, Idaho this fine evening. And I'm the CEO of a company called Dharma Doctor. And we're building a bilateral stimulator to make bilateral stimulation accessible to anyone, anytime, anywhere.
00:02:43
Speaker
Yeah. And that's um a big reason why I have you on is because I'm actually excited for the product that you are creating and that I will be having in my hands very soon. you said to have them Yes. Very excited. Um, but I'm wondering if you could give us a little bit of background on why you started the Dharma doctor and you know, kind of what is bilateral stimulation for those that don't know that are listening. Um, can you speak a little bit more about those, those things? Yeah, so I guess, you know, a little bit about my background. um I was formerly prior to starting this company was in education.
Understanding Bilateral Stimulation
00:03:22
Speaker
And ah I worked with sort of at risk youth and was teaching GED programs for kids who had dropped out and doing working teaching history at a school for pregnant and parenting teens, so kids with kids and
00:03:35
Speaker
The, the genesis of what we're doing came from this idea that we needed, you know, better clinical level tools in nonclinical settings. So, you know, that was kind of my, my framework was how do I provide better resources in areas that are resource scarce and it motivated me to start this company. And, you know, bilateral stimulation, uh, refers to the alternating stimulation of the left and right sides of the body. So it can be visual, tactile, or auditory. And it is just back and forth, back and forth on the left and right sides. And what they found, uh, is that that has some really, really positive effects on the brain. So it was discovered, uh, as part of this broader therapy called EMDR, which I know you're you very experienced in and a practitioner of. And, uh, we can, you know, talk more about that history, but at its core, you know, bilateral stimulation is this alternation between the left and right sides. And so.
00:04:34
Speaker
we are building tools to make that an accessible solution for anyone, anytime, you know, so that anybody can use this to improve their mental wellbeing ah throughout the course of the day. Yeah, and and um thank you for sharing that. Yeah, those that don't know what it is, and and again, that's what I wanted Brad to share, um being someone who's designing a product um for not just clinicians use, but also for um just the end user to to engage with the the use of bilateral stimulation.
00:05:05
Speaker
um and And Brad mentioned um EMDR and yes, I'm a certified EMDR clinician. ah EMDR stands for Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing. It's a trauma-informed modality and framework that uses um BLS or bilateral stimulation as part of helping reduce Really, primarily trauma, um whether it's capital T trauma, lowercase c trauma, and by BLS or bile stimulation is the hallmark component that we use as part of kind of what we call our protocol when we're helping someone walk through an event or events that have um ah what we call a negative charge or kind of a traumatic um event that's kind of stuck in the body or the mind or the emotional states or beliefs. and so
00:05:52
Speaker
um It's essentially what it is. I mean actually I probably should have an episode full on about EMDR probably now that I think about it So that's not a bad idea. Yeah, not an idea. I should do that I mean you can look it up, but hey, I'll talk about it since you're listening this podcast i I'll tell you about it um since I'm certified in it and use it all the time um But that'll be to be to be a TBD on that episode those that are listening and watching I will have one come out and and and i And how Brad and I met was through Instagram, someone, I think he actually reached out now that I think about it, or no, his associate reached out, I believe. Yeah, somebody from my team, I think. Yeah, someone from your
Innovations in Therapy Tools
00:06:30
Speaker
team. And ah side quick side story for me is that in my industry as a clinician, the tools that are out there currently for this kind of bilateral stimulation are very limited, I would say.
00:06:44
Speaker
um and not bad, just limited. um They do the job, they people have been using them for years and they work and they're fine. But the something I found about them personally was they're kind of wired run, they're a little cumbersome, little I feel like the tech is a little behind the time and kind of have been on the lookout for something that's utilizing more modern tech, modern technology, a little more user friendly with a better UI, user interface.
00:07:15
Speaker
um and that might be able to have multiple multiple purposes and um something that we have talked about which you're gonna probably tell us more about is that what you have created is really a multi-purpose device not just for someone like myself but for anyone to pick up and do some kind of BLS stuff at home without a clinician in a safe environment with some different guided well guided stuff I'll say for now until you I'll let you talk more about that but ah So I was very excited that someone from your team reached out and said, hey, you should try this product. And I was like, I jumped on it. I went on the website. I'm like, ooh, this is exciting. It's wireless. There's all these features I'd i'd want if I was going to create a product. And so I decided just to preorder a pair. I'm like, well, we'll see how it goes. And then and then I decided to reach out to you and say, hey, I want to try the product. Let's have a conversation. And then here we are.
00:08:05
Speaker
um So anyway I'm actually really excited and I'm excited to geek out with them and be all nerdy as an EMDR therapist clinician and play with them. So I can't wait to have in my hands and it got me excited because I think having something like what you're doing is so needed in our field because it I think it's going to create and allow for more innovation and innovation and people. Just pushing the cells to think of more at the other ways, more exciting ways to use a product to really help people. So kind of like boots on the ground. So speak get them in anyone's hands who could benefit, which when you, I think when we had our first conversation offline, I was like, yes, that's such a great vision of.
00:08:42
Speaker
How do we get these to more people, more readily available, more affordable, that are user friendly, to help people with something that is so helpful? So yeah, with that said, ah with my little spiel, going back to your product, you came up with your system and your idea because why? Like why did you, I know you said you wanted to get this product to more people, but what kind of really was the impetus for you to design your own hardware? Because I know that's a ah whole ordeal, right? Yeah, yeah. um Starting a hardware, like a hardware startup is not recommended. It's generally warned against everybody tells you don't do it. This is a bad idea. And you have to be a certain type of stubborn in order to like see it through. ah So it's, you know, I, would I did it, I guess, we're like the thesis, the thesis around Dharma Doctor is that, you know, people when given simple tools, ah can use them incredibly well.
00:09:42
Speaker
Right. We as human beings adapt and learn incredibly quickly. And, uh, if you have a tool, you learn how to use that and you integrate it if it works. And, you know, I had experiences and actually prior to my experience with EMDR, I had a mentor who was a, uh, he was a EMDR clinician for the VA. And he gave me my first pair of tappers. Um, these like old neuro techs at their tappers, which were the boxy wired, looks like a game boy from the eighties sort of like tech. Um, but he, he told me to use it in my morning meditation practice. And so I was confused by this thing. I was like, ah this, this is weird. It's old looking, you know, but like I'll do it. And what I found was that there there was something immediately helpful in that bilateral stimulation. Like it, it,
00:10:34
Speaker
helped me get grounded in a way that um I, you know, just breathing or ah just awareness or other guided meditations, it it was faster and it was it was a different different modality and it was a tool, right? It was a tool to help. And so when I started, when I was teaching and working with kids and trying to sort of tackle this mental health problem, the question, you know, that first came to mind is not, necessarily what are the resources people need, but it's how do you build a resource somebody will use, right? Like there are a lot of mental health apps out there. And the great reality is that people use them like once or twice and you do something and then you kind of just let it go and you lapse or you decide, Hey, like you just forget about it. And if you want to build a lasting sort of tool, we have to bridge that from the theoretical and the conceptual into the real world.
00:11:30
Speaker
And in the real world, you need a real device. And so that was kind of like, well, I guess we're going to have to build a hardware, you know, a tool. And, you know, my my students at a various, they they may not be ready, right, to engage in deeper cognitive behavioral therapy or ah try and uncover this trauma. at a very real way, I just wanted something that we could stabilize with so that we could get through like fractions on the GED, right? We're trying to build a tool that can be used in these high, very important and highly influential inflection points in one person's life, right? Like getting a GED changes the trajectory of an individual's life forever. In fact, it's probably the most effective single achievement that you can do to open up doors for the rest of your life. And yet,
00:12:19
Speaker
It hinges on the ability to score above a 145 on these four particular tests. And, you know, these students that I work with at times, you go, they're ready, they've gone all the learning, and then you go into this test environment and immediately you're flooded, you know, with all of the fear, you lose the recall, and and you're back in this scenario where you're unable to process. And we wanted a tool that could just even cut the edge off. a little bit at that point, right? And if we could build a tool that could do it, not just do that, but then also open up the gateways to higher levels of care when you are ready, right? When you are ready to explore, you know, what's what's going on and what's what's the what's the neuroscience and what's happening with your brain and what are the memories? What's the memory network? What is trauma? Like when you're ready to dig into that, you also have, you know, a platform to do that. When you're ready to work with a therapist,
00:13:13
Speaker
You can use that same tool with a therapist. You have a stepped care pathway built into one device. It creates a lower barrier to entry to these services, right? And the hardest, you know, the hardest phone call anybody ever makes is the first call they make to ask for help, you know? And the amount of pain and suffering and like silence, loneliness that precedes that call is where so much, so much harm is created. because we're trying to do it on our own. And so if we can lower that barrier by building a device that you can just hand to somebody um rather than it being a conversation, rather than it immediately diving into the deeper elements of therapy, like it fundamentally changes the accessibility of mental health resources. And that was you know that idea is what really drove us to build a hardware device
00:14:08
Speaker
Because I had every investor under the sun tell me, well, can't you just do this with an app? Or like, can't we just do this in software? And it was like, unfortunately, if we want to build this thing, we can't. We just can't. ah We have to, we have to build the tool. So that's that's what motivated that. And the tool is so needed, you know, the tool is so needed. It really is. It makes a difference for a lot of people because that's one form of BLS, the tappers. um And I know those eye eye movements, the classic one, but I've worked with a lot of people that they can't do eye movement. it makes it It's hard for them. and It's actually more, um well, I know that's how EMDR came about was eye movement.
00:14:47
Speaker
And a lot of the research was done based upon eye movement in the trials, which is very effective still. I find, you know, a good majority of people, they actually prefer tappers and holdings so they can close their eyes and kind of visualize what's happening. So um it's great to have different products that, and especially your product coming out now, um to build up people to have hold, easier to use, less cumbersome. Like you said, the, you know, it definitely felt something like out of the eighties. um the devices they felt this more cumbersome they didn't feel intuitive the shape was kind of odd and awkward to hold it just didn't feel i don't know it felt more cumbersome while they worked they just felt kind of odd so to speak um so you typically use use the tactile or do you use the light bar or uh like butterfly hugs what
00:15:33
Speaker
What are the different modalities? I don't have a light bar. I never ended up investing in one. Personally, they're not cheap. No, they're and they're huge. um They're not small. So they're just they're big. They're expensive. um So I just would just do my arm for eye movement, you know the classic back and forth, you know like that. And self-tapping. um you know, butterfly or on thigh. Some people I would just tap their their knees if it was if it was comfortable for them or me. um I would do that and or just the tappers which I had a pair of neuro techs as well. So but I would just find I have to be close because the wires were not long enough and then it just yeah Sometimes I'd be like, I don't want to use it because storing wire, just I can't stand all the wires and cables personally. So yeah I would use them because people prefer them and like them, um especially because sometimes with butterfly tapping, which is good. But sometimes that could also be hard for some of my clients because they'd have to be counting in their head.
00:16:36
Speaker
And that was they felt they had to count and so they couldn't just sit there and focus and be present cuz they were more worried especially like my clients of the ADHD or something like that they'd be more focused on counting the taps and or some of my higher anxiety clients they'd be more like in my capping right was yeah and like so. um Now, for some people, self-tapping is totally fine. So it really is person dependent, but I think having the product that you are releasing is going to be... so I just can't wait to to use it with my clients. I think they're going to jump on it um because it is easier to use, it's wireless, if they can sit, and it
Features and Benefits of the Device
00:17:10
Speaker
is not cumbersome. so um But yeah, those are like my main BLS tools that I use.
00:17:15
Speaker
so Nice. Yeah. yeah but it's ah It's hard to do the self-tapping. Even when I'm doing it, it's hard to self-tap and try to like let go because you have to be engaged. You have to stay somewhat engaged while you're also trying to disengage. and It's a difficult process. Yes, it is. It really is. And um it's hard it's really hard to do to have because it's a lot of processes happening at the same time. So anything to make it easier for the client to engage in one less barrier, I'm all for. And so you so you built this this this company and decided to make a device company. And and again, investors like
00:17:54
Speaker
No, I can't because I need something physical for this. Um, I guess you could do odd. You could have done audio and something else, but I think the physical thing is is actually a very much a needed thing because again, there's not a lot of competition. It's like no one's really doing much with it. Um, new and inventive. And so you did that and now we're coming on the the first round of release, right? Yeah. That's kind of a big deal for the company. The first shipment arrived today. Today. Like I have next to me. Let's see if I can hold this up. I don't know. Yes, please do. It's a box. Oh, look at that. So we have a bunch of them sitting here in my office now. But ah yeah, so we have the first batch and I'm going to start shipping out the preorders next week. So you will receive your tabs hopefully by the end of next week. I'm so excited. But for the people that we've been talking about this and I haven't really shown what this looks like or whatever. But so these are the tabs.
00:18:53
Speaker
And they look kind of, you know, it's like a charging case. You open them up and we have these two silicone holder molded tabs. You pull them out and they they're magnet they're magnetized in there. And then they turn on automatically and I'll turn this off, but they turn on. nice And then you just click the button and it provides visual and tactile bilateral simulation. And ah you can change the speed of alternation, changes the color. You can also change the intensity of the vibration. And we've got three settings, pre-programmed, two intensities. It goes back to standby. And then these little tabs also connect to our Dharma Doctor app. So ah the app allows you to customize speed and intensity. I think there's eight different settings on both. And it has some other pretty pretty cool features as well.
00:19:46
Speaker
Yeah. So those, if you were listening, you're going to want to jump on the the YouTube version, Google, whatever. It's now called Google YouTube podcast. It's all one now to see it um because they're they're really, I mean, on the camera looks great. So I can't wait to see in person. They look really cool. And I love the features, by the way, that you can, you could turn them on manually as the user themself, like. by itself without even the app, without anything that you could just activate them. They're on and you have some preset settings, which is, I don't know what else has done that yet. I have another company, which are great. It's just, you know, again limited. I still have to activate them really and change settings on my end.
00:20:27
Speaker
So I think that's such a cool tool and the light too. It's like combined with the light and with which is good for me as a clinician because I could visually see as well on which is super great for me um because the other brand I have that is there's a use for the one I have called BiTap which I do like especially for like athletes or something they can you know they can attach them to the wrist and things like that. um but there's no light. So I can't, I have to look at the app to know what the speed is. And I can't, I don't get that visual response, but anyway, those look amazing and they look great. And I love the wireless charging. They just like, it looks like they sit in there and magnetically charged. It's great. I mean, it's really cool. And they charge in the case. I'm assuming you just plug the case in. Yeah. i mean like and The case can charge them like twice without being plugged in. And then you plug in it, you plug the case in and it charges. So it has a full charging capacity, just like your AirPods.
00:21:21
Speaker
right um And then, yeah, like you can, I'll show this too, but when we're when they're connected to the app, you have the tabs and we have this app here. Let's see if I can get the camera. Oh, there we go. Let's try to find it. Oh, there it is. Yeah. You can see it. And then when I press start, so the tabs will go and you can yeah see what's going on on the screen. It all matches up and you can change the speed and the intensity to ah to whatever you want and adjust that there. And then one of the other, this is ah one of my favorite features is we have the ability to do remote access. So if you're working with their if you're working with a client and you want to do it via telehealth, if they have these, you can generate a code and then they enter the code and the therapist can control them from anywhere. So ah you can do remote tactile bilateral simulation in a very, very easy setup.
00:22:19
Speaker
um and you know that's like the amount of Access that creates for EMDR, I think is just really important because it just, it opens up this door to using this modality in a way that traditionally it's been pretty limited. It's really hard. I mean, you telling somebody to do the butterfly hug is hard. Telling them to do it over zoom is even harder. And so we, we have that capability. The one, the other capability that I'm really like, I'm super proud of is we have the ability to do one to many.
00:22:50
Speaker
So the controller can control multiple pairs of tabs at the same time. And there have been some incredible ah EMDR practitioners who have built out group therapy protocols, ah really you using them in environments where, say after a natural disaster, when a whole community has been affected, and it is too time intensive to work with each individual, you can do immediate sort of trauma intervention with a large group population. And this enables us to do that you know much more effectively. ah And and like that's that sort of scalability changes you know changes the whole the whole picture of how many people could be affected by one practitioner. Right now we have this huge shortage, right? There's just not enough clinicians for the demand. And this will enable us to create new protocols and new modalities for therapists. like We can imagine EMDR therapists having group sessions or like
00:23:48
Speaker
group ah group offerings, um, to provide access to more people.
Applications and Impact of Bilateral Stimulation
00:23:53
Speaker
And my North star vision, you know, is what would it be like if you could give these to a million students at once, you know, like if you could, if you could give this to a whole school after a traumatic incident, you know, after some sort of gun violence or, yeah you know, a whole, a whole generation of kids who were just affected by a government lockdown that like kicked them out of school for a year. You know what I mean? Like we can, these are things that are, they've created these, you know, psychic shockwaves that we are dealing with and we'll continue to deal with for the next yeah forever. But if we can use tools like this to to intervene at scale, you know, we can put things kind of back on the track or help help heal the world at scale. And that's, you know, that's really, really exciting for me.
00:24:45
Speaker
Yeah, and I love that. That's your North Star, like, yeah, a million students, right? Or um especially a recent sch traumatic event and be able to have a huge group protocol because you're right, there is a shortage and there's not enough clinicians. It just isn't. It's just, it's too big of a demand, low supply. It just isn't. You're right. um We need more. And also I think with the old tech is I think it was more limited and you're right The telehealth thing is huge for me too because I find it harder to do telehealth EMDR It's it's doable but the self tapping is tough and the people don't like a lot of people I don't like the audio as much the back and forth eye movement is it's harder um but having this capacity and for me to control it is like a game changer like when I when you told me that I that I can control it wirelessly to my video sessions. It's like, that's huge, major game changer. Like that'll change everything, especially if I'm going to work with a client long term. You know, I could build it into the fee where they're, you know, they're buying ah the product that they have that they can use to best their life. And it's partly kind of built into the few sessions of like making it more affordable, and then they are able to get it and then use it. And then I can help them. And they could also practice outside of session too. That's another thing I'm excited about is they can
00:25:56
Speaker
have this device to continue to do what we call resourcing or positive meditative exercises or breathwork exercises that helps us to create that neural pathway more effectively those that don't know there's a lot of research on BLS and one of the things it does um that they found is it can really help Because anything we do that's new, it takes time to create a new neural pathway and a new connection in our brain to make it more effective. And so what they found with BLS is that it can help and increase the speed at which that neural pathways are generated and created and connected in our brain, which is amazing. um That's one of the benefits of positive use. um And so yeah, that is what a great vision. And really, I'm, I bet you're, I mean, how excited are you right now that you have the first box? I mean, it's like, I mean, um I, yeah, I'm pretty excited. um
00:26:42
Speaker
but it's It's a little overwhelming, but it's pretty great. I i spent the day today, i had I was able to deliver some of the tabs to some of my very first customers and like hand them off. and It was such a fulfilling moment. i mean I started this over to almost two and a half years ago was when day zero kind of came in. and there were There were people that I think the first pair was purchased about six months in somebody, I didn't really have any product, but about six months in somebody was like, here's a hundred dollars, please send me it whenever you make this thing. And so now I get to deliver those like tabs to the people that believed in it. And it's, it's so fulfilling. It's such a cool, cool moment, but you know, the work's really just getting started too. Cause now, now we need to bring them out. And, um, for, you know, you, you talk about sort of that there's,
00:27:38
Speaker
it helps ah solidify these neuro pathways. And we've been, you know, one of our mentors, he's a professor here at Boise State. He uses bilateral stimulation with the student athletes to help them with their visualization exercises. So in sports psychology, you provide the bilateral stimulation while you're doing your visualization exercises to improve your performance. And he's seen incredible results. ah so Yeah, it's not just trauma. Like it's not just anxiety. it is a tool to help the brain. And I mean, I guess we didn't really talk about this, but what the mechanism of action more or less, and there's debate about this, whether it's, you know, REM sleep or what the cross-hemispheric is, but the basic idea is that it disengages the fight or flight response, your amygdala hijack that like it puts the neuro pathway back through the limbic region and into your, into your emotional lizard brain, right? And it re-engages the prefrontal cortex or your rational brain.
00:28:36
Speaker
And that cross hemispheric back and forth gets to gets that prefrontal cortex re-engaged. And you know just thinking about like throughout the day, if you have your prefrontal cortex more engaged, you're going to make better decisions. You're going to make more rational decisions, right? And you're going to have more access to ah to making to to all the information you need to make that decision rather than being responsive, rather than being reactive. And, you know, this, this crosses over into basically every area of psychology, every area of like, you know, whether it's trauma or substance abuse disorders, or totally ah just basic neuro dysregulation, like, well, basic to us, because we've studied it, but not everyone, not everyone knows that basic because we've, we've done studies, you've done studies, I've done, I've been trained, but it is basic, but most people don't know that. And I think you hit such a good point and little, little geeks, actually, for those listening that, yeah, when you're, when you're,
00:29:32
Speaker
If you had a traumatic event or whether you're stuck in overwhelming anxiety or in a fight-flight state just to keep it simple, everyone knows fight-flight-freeze, when you're in that state, your prefrontal car for your prefrontal cortex is shut off. It's like a light the light bulb goes out. And now you're just stuck in the the midbrain or the limbic system, like you said, and the and the amygdala or the kind of the more reptilian brain. so that's all about uh you know survival essentially um so whether it's trauma you're responding to or you got the yips right like an athlete and you're and usually though that's rooted in fear and anxiety typically um so it's shutting off this part of the brain yeah you're right that the by-law simulations helps the nervous system re-engage that which enable enables you to create that new pathway so you're not just run by the limbic system fight flight but it gets you out of
00:30:19
Speaker
allowing you to actually move through the fight-flight but moving through the heightened anxiety or the total shutdown or the anger and it helps you kind of move through that wave and then get to the other side which is then when we're re-engaging so it allows almost the re- and that's the reprocessing part right is that we're taking the old story or narrative and we're like putting the piece of the puzzle together and as we do that it kind of reduces the distress in our body and our brains and then it releases the energy so some longer stuck right and then we could actually perform whether it's in
00:30:51
Speaker
sports or you know if um if you're I'm thinking of ah someone I've worked with um you know I've worked with first responders I'm thinking of firefighters police officers have worked with where they can now go back into what they need to do because that part of their brain is not stuck or actual trauma, right? People that are totally stuck in panic attacks or PTSD symptoms or other types of what we call, you know, disorders, right? But really, what's a disorder? It's really a dysregulated nervous system that's something that's stuck, right? At the end of the day. And so, yeah, that's the beautiful thing with BLS is it's it's such a, I think we're finding, like your professor, there's so many ways we could use it now that is really life-giving. And it's not just for trauma.
00:31:35
Speaker
No. And yeah so our chief clinical advisor, Dr. Amy Sarin, she's done a lot of research around BLS and she's done EEG stuff like EEG scans while providing bilateral stimulation. Because inside of, inside of EMDR, there was unclear uncertainty as to what the mechanism of action was for a long time. And there's also this fear of disassociation, right? That somehow bilateral stimulation is going to lead to disassociation if used independently. And she did these studies and she found that like, it's not, it's just not like it's just helpful, you know, through and through. And, you know, even if you go back to the early days of EMDR, Francine Shapiro, when she was exploring EMDR, people said, you know, if you use bilateral stimulation to desensitize to fear, people won't have healthy fears, right? They'll just be desensitized to everything and then they'll go around and
00:32:31
Speaker
uh, without those healthy fears, they won't be able to navigate the world correctly and it's going to go too far. Right. And this was like, this was a legitimate critique and criticism or fear that came out of the early research in the MBR. And you know what they, what she found, which is really the miracle is that it doesn't, you know, yeah it like it, we just heal, we heal back to a natural state. When you get rid of the thing that's blocked, the body doesn't go too far. Instead, it just goes back to normal and that's so different than say prescribing a medication, right? Where even if you use a medication appropriately, right? There's a line there where it it quickly tips over into the inappropriate desensitization, right? and And so much of mental health prescriptions, and you know, I'm not a doctor, this is not medical advice, but my experience in is that
00:33:25
Speaker
taking taking different psych meds, it's a cocktail, and we're just trying to get the balance right so much of the time to not overshoot it, right? And bilateral stimulation doesn't have that same overshooting effect, right? It's not gonna cause extra harm, you know? At the end of the day, the worst thing that happens with bilateral stimulation is that it doesn't do anything, right?
Bilateral Stimulation in Therapy
00:33:44
Speaker
Like that's the that's the worst case scenario is that this just doesn't affect, or you don't have the effect. And like, that's so safe, you know? It's such a such a different, and safe and natural healing mechanism that the brain can use. No, and and and well said, and I think, yeah, the medication, that's all that's a whole other topic. but topic but you know You know, I think with that, you're right. I think the the side, the possible side effects, and this is where I completely agree that the possible negative side effect is relatively low considering in comparison to like a medication.
00:34:22
Speaker
um And I'm not anti-medication. I don't mean like by any means yeah i didn't hear that a natural place for this, but it's it's really a great thing that the brain heals back to a to a natural homeostasis, you know? Yeah, when totally. When the problem is removed, we have this amazing innate capacity to heal. Yeah, we really well we we really do. The brain, the body know where it needs to go, um which is always fascinating when I work with individuals, when we're doing some past work, especially when the client doesn't know where they need to go. um There's this technique called bridging, not to get too geeky.
00:34:59
Speaker
but essentially where there's something coming up in the present, we know whether it's of a belief like I'm worthless or I'm going to fail or whatever, something like that, for example, or I'm going to fail this test, I'm going to fail this interview, i'm not goingnna or I'm not goingnna i'm going to drop the winning pass in football. usually We usually do bridging where i you know there's a technique where we kind of light up their brain, we think of the image and what's the emotion, what's the bias sensation, what's the immediate belief or thought. And that's kind of like the launching pad and then we kind of go back in time, which is something that Parnell did a lot of with when she came up with Laurel Parnell, who came up with attachment-focused EMDR, which is kind of working on more of the attachment deficits or attachment wounds in early childhood.
00:35:41
Speaker
And when we go bridge back and often we land on some earlier event or events or memory or chain of memories that have very similar ties to the present, usually in form of the similar emotional, bodily, or thought state. And because the brain knew it needed to go there. And oftentimes the clients are kind of like sometimes like they're almost like they forgot that it even occurred. And it's now so vivid in their mind as if they're reliving it. And that's the part where the bilateral stimulation isn't gonna have the side effect. It's almost like the brain and body is now re-experiencing the emotion that had to be shut down or quickly moved past. And that's more of the negative side effect in the moment is that they're now feeling the distress, the overwhelm, the anxiety, the fear, the sadness, whatever the pain is of the emotional bodily pain.
00:36:32
Speaker
The bilateral stimulation is really actually, in that sense, it's helping them move through it as another way of looking at it. It's helping them get unstuck from the memory, helping their brain reprocess an effective way because they're in the present in a safe environment. So it's allowing their brain and body to kind of move and not just kind of be stuck in the mud, so to speak. and so That's something I've seen time and time and time and time and time again with the clients I've worked with. And again, for those I've worked with plenty of people too on medications that's really helped them actually get ready for EMDR. yeah um And then we do the work and then we look at titration down off of medications later because sometimes they're either so depressed or so wrought with PTSD that's like
00:37:15
Speaker
function like doing anything is like near impossible so sometimes the medications is like a let's do this to help make somewhat of a change while we do this like EMDR or BLS or something else and then we begin to as we heal we could look at okay let's see if we get off medications down what we've what I've seen with quite a few people is that either they get off it entirely or greatly reduces it so it's barely there because now like their brain and body is like so much healing is done so they don't They don't need that. It's like a that pillar of support is no longer needed because it's been restored. um So yeah, it's really cool. I'm excited. I can't wait. I'm so stoked to get it. So I'm going to be very much looking like a ah kid on Christmas looking in my mailbox, you know, every day leading up to next week. So I'm going to be coming out to the comment. I have a Nest camera, so I'll know when it comes.
00:38:05
Speaker
I'll be able to see it on my phone and I'll probably be at work and I'll have to wait to get home. So I'll probably be in, you know, binding my nails to to open up the box. And my wife will be like, what is this? Well, let's try it out. I'll have her test them out for me. These things light up. Wow. I know. Yeah. I, it's man healing when, when you start opening that box, right? And you, you talk about this so much, but when we start opening and peeling back those layers and you see, you do the bridge back exercise for the first time where you start seeing the way your emotional response to today so deeply by these events and these experiences. And, you know, at first that can be really daunting because it's like, I feel, I feel a little powerless, right? That I'm being guided by all of this baggage and all of this experience. And then to find access to a tool that enables you to change, right? Like that,
00:38:59
Speaker
that ability to change is the genesis of hope. you know It's like this belief that you know maybe something could be different. maybe i could Maybe I could live differently than I have in the past. and you know that's i i There are very few things in life that I think are more inspiring than then that, because who who among us hasn't had that moment of being like, If only I could do this differently, right? Like where we come to grips with our own limitations and and our own baggage. I, I, my own, like my own journey in starting this company and actually being in the company is like, I've had to face a lot of that, you know, from, from periods of my childhood where I felt powerless, you know, or like where I wasn't able to, I wasn't able to fix the things that needed to get fixed. And some of that you carry with you.
00:39:49
Speaker
And so when you start a company, you got to be able to fix everything, right? You like, you have, like the buck stops here, right? And, uh, it's only because of bilateral simulation, EMDR and you know, what I've learned along the way that, you know, we could even, I could even function and build this company because there was a period of time where I really didn't and I couldn't.
Integration and Accessibility
00:40:10
Speaker
Um, so yeah, that, that spoke, that spoke deeply to me, Travis. Yeah. And I thank you for sharing that. And, um, you know, as I think about how bylaws simulation can lead to more kind of being integrated as a human, you know, when you hear that, like, like, how does that speak to you? Like that bylaws simulation could help us become more integrated. I, you know, I think being integrated is a, it's like a pursuit, right? Like integrated, and I, I think of it similar to alignment and, um,
00:40:45
Speaker
We often hear people talk about, you know, being balanced. Like, I just want trying to find balance in my life. And I love, i I personally feel like balance is ah is a form of managing, right? It's like, I've got this over here and I've got this compartment compartmentalized here and I'm trying to produce the correct compartmentalization in order to achieve this outcome. And the idea of integration, you know, for me is like, when, when we don't have to do that anymore, right? When we don't have to manage anything, instead, we just get to be we get to be who we are, who we were intended to be. And that doesn't mean that we're perfect. It doesn't mean that we fixed everything, right? But we don't have to compartmentalize or hide or, you know, be ashamed of some of those those shadowy areas that typically we kind of push back or memories that we want to avoid or evade. And instead, we just get to be fully honest with ourselves and
00:41:39
Speaker
But, you know, bilateral simulation is a tool in that. That is much bigger than bilateral simulation. It's much bigger than Dharma doctor. It's much bigger than, you know, anything, right? Like it's life, I think in a lot of ways. It's the the spiritual path, the quest of personal self actualization. But, you know, if we can create more tools, have better conversations, uh, normalize this language, you know I think we can support people through that process of embracing you know the things that they had previously discarded in themselves. and um that's you know like that's ah That's a big monumental task for sure. yeah and I think with ah really do believe with having a product that is more accessible, more attainable, more user-friendly,
00:42:31
Speaker
especially for the upcoming generation, you know, with the tech that they have now having something that they'll be able to easily use because they're used to similar products already, right, in a way, kind of using the tech out that speaks to them where it's in ease, like you said, it's this earlier on, but they may not be ready for therapy yet. But this is one less barrier to that get them engaged with a product that might intrigue them. And then they do so a couple of basic, you know, breathing exercise or something else and they're seeing something different about this and then that might open a door to if they need to maybe more deeper work if that's what's going on for them but it's that less barrier thing which I think is so important is how do we help people get in engaged in some form of healing with the least amount of barriers so it's
00:43:18
Speaker
It's more of like a no a no-brainer, for lack of a better word, um that they can just engage in it and then start to kind of reap the benefit. And something to some degree, and this is one thing I found with BLS and EMDR, sometimes it's like, they don't even realize it until weeks later or a month later and they're like, that doesn't bother them anymore. You know, like that thing that used to bug them for so long and would consume them for so long, it's like, they have to think about it. And I asked them in my office, like, yeah how how you doing with that thing? That thought of that worry whatever and they're like i think about it and i don't know has really showed up which is like. And i've heard this said super numerous times it's like what like the jedi mind trick or wizardry or like what what magic trick do you pull i might do that sister brain healing itself and that's just like.
00:44:01
Speaker
the power of the brain and the body when it it has the right tool to help heal itself, it just kind of those things that were so stuck before become unstuck and then you can't find it anymore. It's like you have to think hard about it and you're like, it doesn't bother anything that probably bothered them for their entire life or most of their life. Um, and so I am so stoked for this product and I'm wondering, so if people want to get their hands on it, whether they're a clinician or just a regular Joe that's like, Hey, I would love to use this for my meditation and mindfulness practices or for my, my baseball team or whatever.
Dharma Doctor Brand and Future Vision
00:44:34
Speaker
Um, where can we get your product? Yeah. Um, so Dharma, doctor.com D H A R M A D R.com.
00:44:44
Speaker
Uh, or you can search wireless bilateral stimulators. I think we come up like first or second now in Google SEO too. So, uh, either one of those. And, uh, we haven't really talked about this, but, uh, I would love to offer, you know, uh, some sort of discount code for anybody listening to the podcast. So check the show notes. Uh, we'll have some sort of code there. And now Travis and I'll figure it out. But, uh, should we just make one up? It could just be like integrated man projects. There we go. Yeah. what Dharma doctor forward slash integrated man project. Yeah. That works. Dharma doctor.com. Sorry. ddoctor dot com forward slash integrated man project.
00:45:26
Speaker
There you go, discount code, done. okay So get so we'll get we'll have it ready for you and it'll also be in the show notes and link as well. But for those that don't look at show notes, I wanted you to hear it because not everyone looks at show notes and clicks on things. But yeah, I would love to get people, more people on and get more people buying it. So I'm going to share this thing like crazy. And I've already talked to some of my fellow clinicians in my office because they're looking for a new product. I'm like, Hey, as soon as the scene gets in, I want to let you borrow them for a few sessions. You you can take them for a whirl because I know you're going to love them because I already just seen them. I'm just like, Oh my gosh. Like I'm so excited. I'm like holding it back. Um, and obviously probably not more excited than you. This is a two and a half year. Like this has been your life for two and a half years. So I'm excited for you. Like I'm like, I'm feeling, I'm like, yeah, I'm excited for you, Brad. oh And the packaging is so beautiful. Like, yes, it really is. Look at this really quickly, man. It's like,
00:46:20
Speaker
Oh yeah. Oh, look at that. This beautiful flower and you know, here are the tabs and the table and it's, it's, it's really gorgeous. Let me ask this too real quick. So for those I'm wondering, cause I'm wondering and it asks us, so why Dharma doctor? to What is the reason I'm sure behind that a random name that was available out there, but not quite. Uh, you know, in my own spiritual journey, i I dabbled in some of the Eastern practices as well as these Western practices. And, uh, there's a, There's a William Blake quote, actually, that says, you know, when the doors of perception are cleared, man sees reality as it is infinite. And fun, side note, fun fact, that quote is actually where the doors got their name, the doors. yeah the band of the reception Yeah. But the idea of this quote is that, like, you know, the great spirit, the greater reality, Dharma, and I'm kind of, you know, this is a loose translation, but
00:47:16
Speaker
but I like to think of it as reality. What blocks us from experiencing that is the bondage of self, the like our trauma, our baggage, all of these things that we carry with us. And if we can cure those things or we can move those things or we can build tools that help you know help us reduce the weight of that baggage, we can see the world a little more clearly. We can experience the Dharma a little more clearly. And so it's kind of this bridging of sort of the eastern Eastern thought of meditation and the western in yoga and like the Western thoughts of EMDR and clinical psychology and psychoanalysis. And, you know, we wanted a tool that looked, we wanted to build a device that looked just as good on a yoga mat as it did in a clinician's office, you know, that looks just as good on it on a business desk as it does on a kid's backpack. And Dharma doctor kind of speaks to like the uniting of these two worlds.
00:48:12
Speaker
Yeah, I've I've also spent a lot of time in both. So yeah, thank thanks for sharing that that that made it more I felt I'm hearing more of the vision I got more of the story it made even more real on top of just the hardware but like Really the blending of these like you said the east and the west and like taking the best of and saying how do I really? I love that too. I want this to look good on any one shelf from yoga mat to clinical office the kids backpack I think it's great um So and they do they do look good anywhere. I mean I I can't wait for you to hold these because i I'm so proud of them right now. i yeah they're They're really, really, really... and it's The team has done an incredible job.
00:48:54
Speaker
Yeah. And, and those that are listening, you don't, you need to watch this, the video version of this. So please go to YouTube and watch if you're not, maybe you're already watching, but those listening on the audio on Spotify and Apple, go check it out. So you could see a little, little click preview. Um, cause there it is again, beautiful case with the, uh, flower. And is there, is there, is that a specific flower? Did you come up with that? Or is that like, I actually designed this logo myself. Um, and originally it was based, well, it's the Dharma doctor logo now, but it was the inspiration. The inspiration was the Columbine flowers in Colorado. wow and so it's sort of ah It's a play on this Columbine flower, but it's my favorite flower in the high mountains of Colorado. I lived in Telluride for a little while and they bloom up in these incredibly like desolate high mountain valleys and they're the the most elegant flower you've ever seen. so it's
00:49:44
Speaker
It's derived from that, but, uh, yeah, I did design it. That's awesome. So those listening, you want to check it out. It's Dharma doctor dot.com. The Instagram is just Dharma doctor. it's at It's at my Dharma doctor. Oh, at my Dharma doctor. That's the same for all the, all the social tick tock, uh, Instagram, Facebook, Spotify. Okay. We have my Dharma Doctor. Okay. And the website is DharmaDoctor.com. And for that discount code, DharmaDoctor.com forward slash integrated man project. Hey Brad, thank you so much. I am so stoked. And by the time I release this, I'll be having my hands. Um, so thank you so much and have an awesome, you probably won't be able to sleep my guests because you'd be so excited or you'll finally crash because you finally have. the first product in your hand so your body could finally rest, but it may not be, it might just be energized. So I hope you get some sleep tonight. I don't know how to say that, that you can't sleep or you'll just be so excited, you know, playing with your toys. But yeah. Thank you. Thanks for having me. This was a really wonderful conversation and I, I can't wait for you to have them. You can add a little addendum here at the end of the show and say,
00:51:01
Speaker
I received the tabs and they are everything we talked about, you know? Oh, I will add an addendum, absolutely for sure. But hey, have a great night, man. And I can't wait to get in my hands. So blessings to you and thank you for the work you're doing in innovating a product that I really think the world needs. So thank you so much. Likewise, my friend.