Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
From Breakdown to Breakthrough: Therapy, Codependency, and Emotional Intelligence (feat. Sam Powers)
114 Plays3 months ago
Welcome back to The Integrated Man Project! I'm your host, Travis Goodman, and today we have a truly transformative episode lined up for you. We're diving deep into personal growth, healing, and the journey to reconnect with our true selves. Joining us is the incredible Sam Powers—a personal development coach, custom home builder, and dedicated father of three.
In this heartfelt conversation, Sam opens up about his struggles with shame, feelings of inadequacy, and how these led to alcohol abuse and an emotional breakdown in 2020. We'll hear about the life-changing impact of his six-day intensive therapy workshop at On Site and his journey of rebuilding both his home and his emotional life.
Together, we'll explore the pressures of evangelical and purity culture, the challenges of codependency, and the importance of empathy, vulnerability, and intentionality in the process of healing. Sam shares profound insights from his work on "primal questions" and offers practical advice on how men can embrace their emotional healing.
HIGHLIGHTS:
- The Breaking Point and Redemption: Sam opens up about his emotional breakdown in June 2020, driven by shame and feelings of inadequacy, leading him to alcohol abuse. His turning point came through his wife's encouragement and attending a six-day intensive therapy workshop called On-Site.
- Codependency Unraveled: Reflecting on his past, Sam discusses how he discovered his codependent tendencies and worked diligently to address them. He credits Melody Beattie's book, "Codependent No More," as a critical resource during his recovery, allowing him to break free from unhealthy patterns and find authentic ways to cope.
- Primal Questions and Personal Growth: Sam introduces the concept of "primal questions" – core emotional needs stemming from childhood – and how asking these questions has transformed his approach to coaching and personal development.
What's one question you need to answer about yourself to start your journey toward emotional healing and personal growth? Reflect on this and consider what steps you can take to seek the answers you need.
So, sit back, relax, and get ready for a powerful and enlightening conversation that promises to inspire and empower you on your own journey to integration.
JOIN THE MAILING LIST & GET INVOLVED!
WATCH ON YOUTUBE:
Connect and Support Sam:
Instagram: swamipowers
Web: www.sampowerscoaching.com
Connect and Support Travis:
YouTube: Travis Goodman
Instagram: @integratedmanproject
Check out the Website: IntegratedManProject.com
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Invitation
00:00:00
Speaker
Hey everybody, welcome to this week's episode of the Integrated Man Project podcast. Before we jump into this week's episode, I did want to share about an exclusive membership I want to be launching to help shape the Integrated Man Project community. If this is something you'd be interested in, where you will be co-laboring with me, sharing your ideas, giving input, giving me feedback, part of kind of this process of creating something bigger and better for all men,
00:00:27
Speaker
I would love for you to join. And if this is something you're interested, please reach out to me. Email me at integratedmanproject at gmail dot.com. You could also send me a direct message on Instagram as well or on LinkedIn. I would love for you to reach out to me. I would love for you to be part of this exclusive group to help again shape and form this integrated man community.
00:00:50
Speaker
ah Because as you do this, as we share in this journey together, we're going to create a community of men around the world where we become more grounded, more adaptable, more resilient, and more authentic men. So come on and join. If you're interested in this, please reach out to me. And without further ado, let's get into this week's episode.
Meet Sam: Guest Introduction
00:01:16
Speaker
Well, welcome everybody to this week's episode of the podcast. Um, this guest, this guest is special to me only because, well, not only because a lot of reasons why we've had a lot of amazing conversations. Uh, we've met, you have to help me out here, Sam. So everyone, Sam welcome to the show, but how, I don't know how long it's been, we've been talking, but via voice audio, text, text, uh, FaceTime, we've done so much for a long time and finally have you on the show and we've been trying to have a conversation for.
00:01:43
Speaker
How long has it been? I don't even know anymore. Three three years. Has it been that long? It's been three years. um Oh my God. It's it's funny because i I actually think my wife, Chrissy Powers, found you found you and was like, you got to check out this guy's work. and then So we started doing the the whole Instagram DM and all that stuff. and We have a lot of commonalities, a lot of similar acquaintances in those fields and stuff like that. and um yeah We've been trying to do this and I think it's a perfect time actually. i think that
00:02:19
Speaker
I mean, I've been a big fan of the show, the the quality quality of conversations that you're putting out in the world for us guys, us dads, in any capacity. It's been really beautiful because um I think what we men are craving now, especially as dads, is we are taking what we were given as kids and taking that and going,
00:02:46
Speaker
Hey, did this work for me? Did this work for us? Did this work for our family? And we are trying to constantly improve now to give our kids maybe the attunement and the attachment and the parenting that maybe we didn't get. Yeah. And and that's something that I, a lot of the episodes and,
00:03:11
Speaker
just beautiful It's a beautiful experience because this is a different space than a lot of us have experienced.
Podcast's Impact on Men and Dads
00:03:18
Speaker
Well, Sam, thank you for the kind of words. It means a lot, and I appreciate that. um Yeah, it's good to know that it's having an impact on people. and That's been my intention, is to have real conversation and to have that space. So it's cool to hear that, ah you know, what people experience. But um crazy, that's been three years. That was before my daughter was born. And I know that it was through your wife, Chrissy. I'm gonna say hi again. Hi, Chrissy, hi. um That we met, and and yeah, we've had some amazing conversations, just kind of,
00:03:46
Speaker
on and off. it's It's three years. It's like where I blinked. I feel like I blinked. And then I had another kid and I i felt like it really blinked. So I guess the more kids you have, it just time to speed
Sam's Life and Work
00:03:57
Speaker
up, dude. So and so i you know, for me, I'm I'm 45. I grew up in San Diego. I am a personal development coach. I am a um custom home builder. So I i build homes. That's been my chosen skill set for the last 20 plus years. I've been married for almost 14 years to my wife, um who is also a mental health professional. So, you know, I've been around a lot of the work.
00:04:26
Speaker
that we've all done. um I've got three kids, 11, eight, and five. And yes, when you have three children, it just becomes warp speed.
Parenting Challenges and Survival Mode
00:04:37
Speaker
you know and and they hit and i And I think it's funny, it's like those early years when they're not as mobile and they're not as verbal, those years seem like they drag on forever. And then they hit this point and then you're just,
00:04:53
Speaker
You're just going. You're just flying through those months. And those and then it's like, oh my gosh, summer's here? like What are we going to do? And then it's like winter your break. And then it's like spring, summer. And you're like, where what just happened?
00:05:08
Speaker
I definitely feel it. And I thought it was challenging with two kids, but once you hit that three mark, there is a, and I don't mean this in a bad way, but there's literally a level of detachment where you're like, all this other stuff just doesn't matter. And and we're just sending it into the future. We're just, we're going, we're going fast.
00:05:32
Speaker
Oh, totally. No, I, yeah, I feel it. As you said that two is a three, you know, when you have one, and it's all, I'm gonna say this to people, it's all relative. Like there's definitely some relativeness to this, but when you have one, you know, if they're having like a difficult time or emotions or they're having a, you know, they're trying to navigate it, you have all the attention of one kid. And eat that, by the way, first time around, that could definitely be a lot of work and a lot of that could be taxing on us as a parent and trying to deal with your kids' emotions and what does this mean and learning it. Then you have two, and then you go to three when you're alone with all three and they're all having a hard time. It's like, okay, hmm. So which one am I gonna have to totally neglect right now? Because I can't be three people to all three of you right now. And I think that's it's survival mode.
00:06:19
Speaker
It is, and it's so hard because, you know you're and especially for dads that are doing the work, and it's funny because like I told someone recently, I said, you know what the hardest thing about being a parent now is when you're a parent like us who are actively trying to improve not only the quality of your life internally, yeah you're not only having to parent or re-parent yourself if you're doing any kind of um any kind of healing,
00:06:48
Speaker
but then you're parenting your children at the same time and you're just part of me is like going, and I hope I'm doing this right. Like i'm bla seriously, i'm I'm trying really hard to do this right and I'm really trying to do this the best that I can. It's terrifying sometimes. Yeah.
00:07:07
Speaker
a i mean yeah and And I always go back to like, good parents worry that they're gonna be good parents, other parents, they're not worrying about that. I'm like, okay, I think I'm on the right path. We're on the right path. When I feel it, sometimes I'm like, as a as a clinician, and I'm like, I know these things, like I teach these things, and I still get stuck in these things, and that's okay. well All the grace in the world, you know?
00:07:34
Speaker
And you know what? i think that's I think that's something that I resonated a lot with some a lot of the conversations you've had with other men is that being married to a clinician myself, we understand like as the partner of a clinician, it's like, I get where you have to be.
Marital Insights and Conversations
00:07:51
Speaker
I really get it. But it's also so great to know that your clinician partner still will break down and like lose it and be like, Oh, yeah.
00:08:00
Speaker
I'm over-served, I'm over-resourced, I don't have any capacity left, and you know, it's like, it's great. Yeah, yeah, no, I'm very thankful for my spouse, my wife, who's very understanding and knows that, does not hold me to some weird pedestal, but totally guessed that I'm human. In fact, the other night, we were having a conversation with, she was going into the deep, you know, it was like a big conversation about what would we do in this situation, and it was like at the end of the day, it was a Friday night,
00:08:29
Speaker
for driving home. Yeah, and I'm like, and then she goes in this deep conversation, which I totally need to have and would love to have. And I just was like. You know, right now, while there's a part of me that totally wants to totally jump into this, i the other part of me can't actually have a really good, I can't really engage in this because I have nothing to give in this. And this this conversation is not like, hey, do you want to cook at home or pick up drive-thru? It wasn't that kind of conversation. No, it was. like
00:09:00
Speaker
like you know big big decision cognitive a very a very cognitive decisive yeah yeah it was so and I said I said I right now tonight I'm unable to but let's we need to have this conversation but right now I won't be able to give all of myself and she totally got it I was like thank you like that's you know I love So I learned this, we have a relationship coach that has really helped us. Our coach told us one time because when you have small kids, you're your time is going out to everyone else but your spouse, normal. And you kind of grieve the loss of that, especially if you're a partner, you know. And and as you know for for moms, you know, they're kids, it's they've they have a different attachment because they grew those children, which is a beautiful gift.
00:09:51
Speaker
And so our relationship coach, um she told us, she goes, you got this discourse. She goes, you can always just say to your partner, like, I don't have the resources to have this conversation. And so it's it was a really beautiful way to get that framed, you know, and go, yeah, I don't have the resources.
Pandemic-Induced Personal Growth
00:10:13
Speaker
I don't have the emotional bandwidth. Yeah.
00:10:16
Speaker
And it's just like, and so now, you know, there's been times like my wife's favorite time to bring up these contracts are like conversations is right as I'm trying to fall asleep. And I'm like, I'm like, honey, I love you so much. I said, but this tab needs to close on the computer.
00:10:34
Speaker
And I don't have the resources to have this conversation right now. And, you know, the person that you're talking to is not the same person that had that bandwidth or even that emotional intelligence like over three, four years ago.
00:10:49
Speaker
And so I'm kind of like living proof that um change is possible when it's intentional and when your partnership is based off of the a ability to change and empathy and vulnerability. Because before, you know, before we crossed paths, I was a very dense,
00:11:08
Speaker
I was I thought I was I had made it as a human being I was good I was totally fine I had the answers I had all the boxes checked off and then 2020 happened And and I can and I'll give you the little backstories because that can bring us up to now and so as a as a custom builder of homes when my wife and I got married when she was pregnant with our first kid we got the opportunity to
00:11:41
Speaker
buy a piece of property near my parents and build a house. And our goal is always to build what they call an ADU, which is an accessory dwelling unit. And building in California, even though I do this all the time,
00:11:57
Speaker
it's a very It's such a different challenge when you're doing it for yourself. And so my wife was pregnant with our first ah son, who's now 11. We bought the property in 2011. I built the first house. It took almost three years.
00:12:13
Speaker
We finished it in 2014. Our first son was an extreme colic kid. So we lived in a 600 square foot, one bedroom condo from where we were building the house. But building a house takes an incredible amount of planning and resources. And so we built that house.
00:12:34
Speaker
We lived there, we had two more kids, and the goal was always to build a secondary, bigger house, you know, because I built a fairly small house, two bedrooms, one and a half baths, which sounds big for a lot of people. But when you have children, as you know, that space starts to feel very, very constricted. And so I drew the plans myself. I got them through the city. My wife got We had our, she got pregnant with our third, our daughter. And so I was doing all that, you know, logistics stuff, getting it ready. um We had our daughter Ruby and um got our main house approved by the jurisdiction we live in, which is, it took like almost a year and a half.
00:13:21
Speaker
So it's like, I tell people it's like submitting a plan for a Lego kit to the DMV. That's what it's like trying to get a house built. And there was nothing there. So it's like, you know, you're you're dealing with a lot of logistics in minutia. And so we pulled our first permit.
00:13:40
Speaker
on 9-9-19. I will never forget it because I was like, wow, this is so wild. It's like 9-9-19. I was like, I'll never forget this day. Started building it, took a big construction loan, got the house rough constructed, got it framed, got the windows in, and then March of 2020 shows up.
00:14:01
Speaker
And, you know, and I was so focused on what I was doing. Sure. Because, you know, it's like, I grew up it grew up in an evangelical space too. And so, you know, when you're given those messages from early on, it's like, you're the provider, you're the protector, you're going to do this. And I just remember like watching the whole world closed down slowly. And then it was like, okay, now you're you're done, you're stopped. And I'm literally, we're living in our guest house and I'm looking out the window of this unfinished, this dream project, you know, my part of my legacy, whatever you want to call it. And it was it was one of the most defeating experiences of my life. And I, you know, I come from a good, you know, my
00:14:50
Speaker
Dad was one of five kids. My mom is one of four kids. My dad's family is a good Irish Catholic family. And during the pandemic, I got depressed. I started abusing alcohol. Classic. yeah I mean, I don't think I was the only one. And the amount of stress, I mean, I i became like the homeschool parent. And, you know, it's like I got a second to third grader and I got a kindergartner and a two year old. And I can honestly say that my wife, she went back to work as a therapist because the, as you remember that time period, I mean, still. Yeah.
00:15:28
Speaker
She had kind of paused her private practice when we had our second son and she was like, well, what are we going to do? And I was like, I have no idea. I was like, our construction loan got froze because it was a national disaster. So it was just like for for me and I'm like a planner. So it's like, I'm like, okay, I got this, do all this stuff. yeah It just was the most overwhelming and sad. It was the most hopeless I'd felt in so long.
00:15:58
Speaker
And so I, and again I'm even saying this out loud, like there's still that residual shame of like, that I i wasn't strong enough. oh You know, because it's, for us guys, it's like, we're taught from day one, like, like be strong.
Reaching Rock Bottom and Seeking Help
00:16:14
Speaker
be you know you got to be noble, you got to protect your family. like And I literally just, I just couldn't hold it together anymore. And i i could i would I would abuse alcohol, so I'd kind of like binge. And then finally one night, it i just I just allowed myself to just go that distance.
00:16:36
Speaker
And it was one of the saddest nights of my life. Like I can remember because I remember being in that even in my totally just sorry state of a human, I just knew I was like, I can't go any farther. And that was like in June of 2020. And I woke up the next day just feeling the most, the most defeated I think I'd ever felt.
00:16:59
Speaker
I just there's and there's a hopelessness that I I had never really experienced and that was like one of the most hopeless days like I just was like I felt so worthless I felt so sad and I don't remember my my wife and I give her all the props in the world and all the spec because she just was like honey I I love you get help that you need I don't know how we're gonna kind of move forward Yeah, sobering conversation. Oh, it's just, and you know, and as a mental health professional, she's a mental health professional. And and I almost felt more sad that, and yeah like it was almost like this, like my ego just went, I'm done. It's like, dude, you can't even, you're married to a mental health professional, you can't even keep your life together. We'll talk about the shame on top of shame, right? You're already having shame and then and another layer of shame on top of that, you know? Yeah.
00:17:55
Speaker
And and it it it took me a while to kind of unravel all of this and and put it in words because you know when you do when something like that happens, and I look back and I'm very grateful that I i didn't physically hurt anyone. you know And I mean, I am so, and this sounds so weird, I am so blessed that experience happened the way it did in the place it did.
00:18:22
Speaker
because the the hurt though that I caused was trust, trust, trust. And I mean just yeah all of that, I mean that emotional damage of like not being that safe person for my partner and then also my kids. Yeah.
00:18:40
Speaker
And that, that was so hard and it was such, and when I tell people, you know, it's like, they're like, what was that? Your rock bottom. I was like, oh, rock bottom. I was, I was lucky that my rock bottom, high. Yeah. Because I have friends that if their rock bottoms was, was way lower than mine. And
Therapy and Personal Transformation
00:18:59
Speaker
I am, and and I, I, I really think if I hadn't had been in therapy and done therapy before, you know, like I, I had that awareness.
00:19:09
Speaker
And so it was it was beautiful because my wife with so much grace was like, well, you need help. Therapy is not helping you right now. Do you want to go to rehab? And we had a ah close friend of ours who had gone to onsite workshops, which is in Tennessee, um in Cumberland Furnace. And it's a it's a wellness intensive workshop. They do experiential therapy. It was originally founded on um helping people with codependency.
00:19:40
Speaker
They have a location actually in San Diego, Ramona called the Oaks. And my friend and was like, hey, man, like he went, I don't know, maybe a year before I and he was like, you should go like this. This would be the place to go. I just happened to.
00:19:57
Speaker
like My wife's like, you got to call him. She goes, I'm not going to do this work for you. She goes, you got to do these this call. And I was like, would you rather go to rehab? Would you rather go to onsite? And I was like, oh, I'll go to onsite. I mean, I've had a lot i had a lot of friends go to rehab over the years. It never worked.
00:20:12
Speaker
You know, it's like I had a good friend who went three times and I'm like, even then I'm like, something's not, there's there's something else. there's And for for some people, it is the gift that is healing because everyone's healing journey looks different.
00:20:28
Speaker
So I went to like the second session after they reopened for the pandemic. It's like six days, no phones. You don't talk about what you do. You don't talk about your last name, I mean, or even really where you live. So it's this.
00:20:43
Speaker
like leveling of humanity, and you do experiential therapy, ah psychodrama, and I can honestly say it was one of the hardest, yet one of the top 10 things I've ever done in my life. I mean, besides marrying my wife, having my kids, I can honestly say going there was like, just, it was what my soul needed to reconnect to who I was.
00:21:10
Speaker
Like you're sharing the need to reconnect to who you were. That's powerful.
Returning Home and Continued Growth
00:21:14
Speaker
you know it's It's something that now I realized too, and this is where as we move forward in this conversation, it and makes more sense because I remember coming home and that was very hard because you you you know you don't have your phone for six days, you're with these people, you like almost trauma bond, but it's part of that group being in those groups and being in those small rooms where you're holding space for your,
00:21:40
Speaker
your team, your group, you get this profound sense of like of empathy and you learn that vulnerability, that emotional intelligence that I just never had.
00:21:52
Speaker
yeah i mean in yeah You're not taught that. I'm 45, I'm like the tail end of Gen X. I remember before the internet, You know, it's like before cell phones, like pagers, you know, it's like, but I'm young enough to like remember like, you know, like Myspace and all that stuff where I'm like, what what's streaming? You know, it's like like, I remember when iTunes was new and I'm like, wow, I can just download like the entire like catalog of my favorite, I'm like, you know, so it's it's it's weird occupying certain spaces.
00:22:28
Speaker
And
Understanding and Healing Codependency
00:22:29
Speaker
I grew up in an evangelical system. And, you know, even with that, you know, there still is this performative pressure. And, you know, I grew up in purity culture for any of your listeners. Like, I remember the true love weights. I remember all that stuff. You know, and so when you have, when you grew up in these systems, you know, it gives you a false sense of that you're good. You're you're done. You know, like, it's like, yeah check the box. You do the work.
00:22:57
Speaker
It's all systems good. yeah yeah And it was interesting because I remember coming home from onsite and I just, I honestly was like, like i I was like almost scared to be home because then I had this, like I was just seeing the world through all this new things. I mean, my house wasn't done, the house.
00:23:15
Speaker
the house we were building wasn't done. And I think what happened is so I stayed at home, I took care of the kids, I finished the house, like, I don't know, I mean, it was like pulling teeth, but with the tools that I learned, I It just gave me a new sense of gratitude for just being. and that's that's what i you know and i I learned I had all these codependent tendencies, so I had to dive into codependent work and unraveling all of that.
00:23:49
Speaker
all of that because and this is what's really hard and I don't think that most people know people think codependent they think of this like person that can't get themselves off the floor or can't you know and there's a lot of there's a lot of misaligned stereotypes sure oh yeah hey I'm so grateful I read Melody Betty's Codependent No More. I mean, it's like the Bible of codependence, and Onsite was founded on that. So I did their living-centered track, and and I remember like someone was like, well, what what's it like that I codependent? And I was like, yeah. They're like, what's that? And I'm like, I said, well, think of it this way. I easily could stop drinking because you can cut a substance or a behavior out of your life, but you can't quit people.
00:24:37
Speaker
And that's hard. yeah And so what I had to do is like learn about intentionality of like, was I saying yes to a friend because it would affirm me, right? And that's that's hard. And that's a multi-layered, very nuanced,
00:24:54
Speaker
expression of behavior and moving forward in an operating system. And it's so funny because I remember I told that to a friend of mine, right? When I got back from onsite and I mean, they were just like puzzled face ever. And they're just like, you're codependent. And I was like, yeah, that's, that's the real, that was like the real issue is that when my, the affirmation I was seeking for didn't get met.
00:25:24
Speaker
I would get stressed, I would ah would start to spiral, and then I would cope, and you cope with your, you cope with the poisons that feel like home. yeah And it was, it was it's been it's been, the last three years have been some of the hardest years, yet some of the most rewarding experiences of my life.
00:25:51
Speaker
And it's funny because it it took me way longer to finish our house. I mean, we ah we didn't have any money to finish it. we We figured out how to do it. I mean, it was like me and my dad, who's a general contractor as well. And we just did the best we could. I mean, the amount of stuff that I had to do by myself, it it was almost comical from a professional standpoint. Yeah.
00:26:20
Speaker
But I was like, do you know what? I'm so grateful that I'm here. i'm so And i I'd get to see my kids. And I think that was one of the most profound thing was if that had not happened, I would have never gotten to reconnect and learn how to attune to be the parent.
00:26:39
Speaker
that i I hoped I would have been.
Parenting and Personal Development
00:26:41
Speaker
yeah And I mean, you know, and it's it's so hard because as hard as all that was, I would never take it back because of, and in our therapist at Onsite, I and remember standing there talking to her, Kathy, she was just wonderful. that i And I felt so much shame from my behavior before on site with my kids because they they'd seen me inebriated more than any kid should see their parent, you know, and it's it's a sad thing. I remember crying and I just said, well, how do I do this?
00:27:15
Speaker
you know, when I go home with my kids. And she was like, well, your kids are young, and that's important. She goes, so you're just going to be the dad want to be? And they're slowly going to forget the dad that was. And and and honestly, that was one of the and was one of the greatest gifts to me. just And she was like, it's going to be OK.
00:27:37
Speaker
And so we did that, I mean, my wife, if she hadn't gone back to work, we would have been sunk, which is, I give her all the props for that because we couldn't have done it. Yeah. So we we finished the house, we, you know, everyone bet went kind of back to normal, you know, and we crossed paths, started, you know, listening to all the work that you were doing, just like, in awe of all that, all the wisdom that you were bringing to us dads, because really, it's a space that we didn't have And it's funny since, and I'm still building houses and I'm still doing that, but it's funny, I crossed paths with Mike Foster.
Becoming a Personal Development Coach
00:28:17
Speaker
So Mike Foster is my personal development coaching mentor. He was the one, Mike was the one who told my friend about onsite. My friend went to onsite and my friend told me to go onsite. And now Mike Foster is my mentor in personal development.
00:28:33
Speaker
so yeah small yeah crazy small world It's a crazy small world. And and it's funny because like when I started to do all that work, i naturally ah storyteller and I'm a I was a people pleaser for a long time. And it's funny because when I learned I had codependent tendencies,
00:28:52
Speaker
i I changed that, you know, intentionality. And so I got the opportunity this last year to join ah Mike Foster's primal questions like coaching cohort. And that's why we're here. And that's, all here and it's funny because like, my wife's like, you would make a great therapist. And I was like,
00:29:12
Speaker
i don't like I don't know. i'm and And I was like a was really into punk rock when I was in my like late teens, 20s, so I ah naturally have this, I don't know, like I'm just a punk rocker. like I grew up in punk, like I loved it, I loved the messaging of like let's, we're gonna stick to the man, all that stuff. and And it was funny, when I found this work, I was like, so I could do coaching, and I was like, I wonder what the difference, and then I started looking up the difference, and I was like,
00:29:41
Speaker
Oh, coaching, I could just be like, get a little more radical. And, you know, some people need that because I i needed that. I fully needed that. and And you're not bound by a bunch of laws like we are. You know, you get a little more freedom. I mean, you're bound by laws, but I mean, it's a little less restrictive than us. Yeah. in And honestly, like, I take it very seriously.
00:30:02
Speaker
Because, you know, my, my partner is by the book and to working with, and I primarily work with men right now. And, and it's really funny because like, I look at some of my clients that I work with and I'm like, I'm like, Oh, that was me like 10 years ago. And this is so cool that, yeah. they're going to benefit for all my failures, all my screw ups. And I can tell them like, Hey man, like, and I've even told some kinds of stuff. I was like, if, if you don't, if you're not like stoked, like, let me know. I won't be offended because if you got a breakup with me and you find someone else that helps you launch them, like that's, that's the work right there. Yeah, no good for you. No, that's a sign of a mature coach slash clinician, right? I say the same thing. Hey, you got to make sure we jive. If we don't, it's gonna be hard to go get you anywhere. You know, you got to make sure that you like be enough to trust me enough to go there. Otherwise, yeah, I want you to find someone else tell me I don't say anything. I don't take offense because then that means I'd be I don't want to be a hindrance to your journey of health.
00:31:08
Speaker
oh Yeah, and you know for I think too and this is in this is something that I I've seen your podcast and I see what the work you're doing when men heal everyone's Quality of life becomes so much better. Yes 100% and it's so in what I I run into too and this is something that you've worked with your clients. It's like I A lot of the guys that I've worked with, two, three, four sessions, all I'm doing is just going, all right, man, what do you feel? Like, are you feeling safe? Are you feeling secure? Do you feel, like, loved? Like, what's what's going on? So we use feeling wheels. And it's funny because people are like, well, how do you get guys to to talk about their feelings? I was like, oh, it's that's that's the hardest work because it's something that we weren't taught. Like, we have taught this, you know, as a cultural narrative.
00:32:01
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, or we were well, or we were the messaging was to not only not taught to not feel, you know, oh God, yeah, and to feel would be, you know, weakness, all those other things. So the way it was like a, that's like a, that's a threat to feel feelings or threats feelings or not safe feelings are you know the enemy, so to speak, so I'm not gonna go anywhere near there. So to to actually now come in and have that question, it's like the defenses come out and yeah the dance begins. um But it totally makes sense. you know Yeah, and so it's so funny, because like so the book is the seven primal questions, it's my foster's down. There it is. It's it's awesome. It's probably Backward and Reverse. Yeah, I know, I know. fair so ill agree that ah We're book buddies.
00:32:46
Speaker
I know it's the best. but So it's it's funny because- So what is the primal question? Can you like, what is the primal question? Like what? and Okay. Let's frame this. Why should guys care about this?
00:32:56
Speaker
How do you feel? That's what it is. It's about so, you know, and I think so, Mike, I'll give you some context. So he's been in the personal development space for like 20 years. So he knows this stuff. The Premo question, he developed it after 6000 hours.
00:33:17
Speaker
of doing couples and individual work. And he noticed for clients and your clinician that certain things would always kind of come up, eat whether it's in conflict with your with couples, where it's a behavior that repeats. It's a stuck emotion. And so he started to take note of all these.
00:33:40
Speaker
Now he's he's done an incredible amount of personal work himself, you know, to bring him to this place so he can actually see this. um And he started to develop this idea like he's like, well, I keep seeing these core wounds or these, you know, these questions or these things that just continue to pop up in every session, you know, over, you know, 6,000 hours. That's a lot. I mean, and so he kind of started narrowing down and then he would beta tested on, you know,
00:34:14
Speaker
his clients and he'd be like, well, hey, you know, let's ask this question. And so the seven questions and it it sounds, and I hate saying it's, it sounds simplistic, but usually good information feels pretty simple.
00:34:28
Speaker
Oh, yeah. and And as when you ran off the seven questions, um you know, because I recently picked up the book based upon your recommendation and, you know, reading it to me yeah in both that personally, um you know, just as being a guy and and everything in my own story, as well as being a therapist is like most things are quite simple when it comes down to it because most things go back to like what you needed as a kid, as a child. And when we're children is very straightforward. It's not complicated. So that's why I think it makes sense.
00:34:58
Speaker
and And here's something to think about too. The most direct humans in the world are your children. They're like, yeah I want that. I want that. Can I have that? I need this. They just tell it to you. And it's so interesting because as you grow and you I hate to say it, it's like we get this our own false sense of our own amazingness, you know, which is, tends to be our ego, you know. And I remember picking up the book before I even joined the coaching and and all that. And I remember I got it in the mail and I was like, now, and I've, I'm like an avid reader. So I've, I've read some pretty hefty, I've read, you know, Body Keeps the Score by Bessel van de Kolk. And I'm just a curious human. Like I just,
00:35:43
Speaker
And it i will I was grateful that I had parents that always fostered the idea of like, hey, if you're gonna do something, learn the history of it too, yeah so that you have reverence for the past, so that you can bring it into the future, and then you can And they they weren't even like, so you can talk about with authority. It was just like, no, just know what, where the past comes from. Cause like I played music, did surf, skated, all that stuff. And my parents were always like, Hey, listen, if you want to play like rock and roll, why don't you learn where it came from? You know? And so.
00:36:18
Speaker
And I'm really grateful that they they instilled that early on. so like i've always been And I'm a fast reader, which ticks people off because they're like, how did you read that so fast? I was like, I just have that ability. And I remember the first time I picked up the book, I was like, ah like well, it's just you know it's really it's really clean, it's really simple, I'm like the font's bigger. Like, and I was like, you know, I'm like my own biases of like, and I started digging in and I start, I start doing the questions and then I'm doing the scrambles. And then all of a sudden I'm like burned to the book and I'm like, oh my gosh, this is so genius. This is because it's something that even your
00:37:02
Speaker
and anyone can access this. and And I think that's, you know, and I'm married to a therapist. Some people just, they hear that word and they're like, man I don't know. I don i i don't know. what's What's going on there? You know, and I mean, I've heard it. I've seen it. i've I've been witness to the conversations where people are always like, you're married to a therapist. And I'm like, yes, I am. They're like, do they try and change you? And I was like, they can't. That's why I'm my own therapist.
00:37:31
Speaker
Yeah, it's very true. It doesn't work. No, it doesn't work. And so the seven questions are, and and i when you say them out loud, like everyone can kind of relate. It's like, oh totally am I safe? Am I secure? Am I loved? Am I wanted? Am I successful? Am I good enough? And this one, and it's interesting, a lot of my clients, do I have a purpose?
00:37:57
Speaker
simple enough on paper, saying it out loud. Yeah. And it's so funny. So when you, like I i started diving into all that work and it's like, these are the that, that soul question that you just, it always, and I think for men too, it resonates because it's something that,
00:38:16
Speaker
because we're not taught to be very relational or expressive with any other emotion than anger or frustration. yeah It's like, do i do I walk around going, am I safe? No, of course not. Right.
00:38:30
Speaker
But if that that question from childhood shows up, the flip side of that question is like the gift. So we will, see, I'm i'm a question one, I'm like, am I safe? I've suffered from anxiety for law for most of my life, it's biological. I now know that if I was born now, I would have been considered a highly sensitive person. Well, guess what? Anxiety and sensitivity goes together.
00:38:56
Speaker
Yeah, they're hand in hand, for sure. Hand in hand, I didn't know. You know, I was like born in 1978, you know? Yeah, they were talking about that then, really. Now I'm 12 years old in 1990. That was that that emotional awareness. And so it's interesting because when I started to understand like, am I safe? Like my core fear is like harm and not, not feeling safe. And so my gift is that when people enter into my world, I try and make them feel as safe as possible.
00:39:31
Speaker
You know, and and I will try to make sure that they're, you know, if they, if people, you know, family stays at our house, like I'm going to make sure that they don't need anything. You know, it's like, I'm going to meet their needs. And, you know, the problem is, is that it also would paralyze me. Like I wouldn't know how to take risks because I, so my, you know, for my question, now that I know that this is kind of who I was, I was like, dang. Makes sense.
00:39:59
Speaker
All the dancing stars are aligning. Yeah, and you're just like going, I'm like, okay, like, you know, and, and what it is, is when you do these questions in this work, it's like, for me now, it's like, my, my primal, create like truth statement is, I am safe. And just flipping that and tipping it from, am I safe to, I am safe.
00:40:21
Speaker
And, you know, and and I even go like I joined, you know, I, I joined the, the primal, the beta group of primal questions, coaches, I made a financial investment. And now knowing is like, that was a huge risk for me. And I, I took that risk out of, you know, my question going,
00:40:41
Speaker
And i I remember like even having the conversation with my wife before i I signed up to do it. And she was like, honey, this is like a no brainer. This is like, this is what you're good at. You're good at connecting with people. you She goes, you don't have you won't stop building. And I was like, no, because I'm good at that too. She goes, you can always add this on yeah you know for maybe one day that year your body is just like, hey man, I can't do this anymore.
00:41:09
Speaker
yeah and And it's so funny because like I remember getting my first client and I just remember getting off the first call and I was like, oh my gosh, that was to to see someone connect with themselves as you know, yeah it's it's such a joy.
00:41:26
Speaker
Oh, totally. Absolutely. It's the best feeling. yeah and and it's And I don't ever regret you know my past and and the way I operated because i that former version kept me safe till now. yeah And now I know I am safe.
00:41:45
Speaker
Yeah. And i can I can live in that primal truth and I can take more risks and I can, you know, grow and, you know, instill that value in my kids. Yeah. You know, and it's it's funny be because we do couples like that and my wife uses it for couples like work a lot too.
00:42:05
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Well, in the book too, it talks about, which I think but you tell me, you tell me if this fits, but because we have this question, I like, you know, even like the title is catchy. It caught my eye when, you know, the primal questions, you know, and then when I read it, I'm like, Oh, I think the the the the word primal makes total sense because it is that core, that kind of core deep question that we're all asking. And it they're all kind of getting to the same thing, which is a different way of saying it. And so, you know, every person that I sit with,
00:42:36
Speaker
and in my office while I'm doing therapy, you know, and I've seen like well over a thousand people. I mean, I can't even count anymore. yeah um It's been 10 years of doing it. So, you know, give or take 30 people a week for the past 10 years, whatever the hell that number is, big number. That's a lot.
00:42:52
Speaker
Yeah, big number. So, and you see like everyone at the core, they're asking questions like this. And then, and so it is probably because it's the it's it's the kind of what everything goes back down to. And then when you think of your life, and I think just to help the listeners get a better sense is that we have this question. And and I think how the book frames it is if we don't, if we can't say that in case for you that I am safe, it's like if the question is, am I safe?
00:43:16
Speaker
We tend to say I'm not or I don't know, which then leads us into what he called, Mike Foster called the scramble, right? Oh yeah. You know, the scramble or the primal avoidance, right? Which is kind of avoiding. So, you know, if you, could you quickly give like what that, you kind of shared it a little bit before I think, but to put it in that frame light of like when you would get stuck in your kind of scramble or primal avoidance, when you couldn't answer the question, am I safe with it? Yes.
00:43:42
Speaker
what were some of the behaviors or things you would do to kind of deal, quote unquote, with that kind of dissonance with am I actually safe? I don't think I am because I think the answer is I'm not safe right now. What would you do? Oh, I think like, well, it's interesting because like the first two questions like, am I safe and am I secure? They're they're they' very close. Yeah. You know, and and what it is, is like for me, part of safety is like a financial piece too, you know, because I grew up in a working class family, which is great, you know, and, but I knew, you know, as the oldest kid and as being a sensitive kid, guess what? i would I would know when things were a little lean. And so like, when I, my safe question like was starting to,
00:44:27
Speaker
you know, get triggered. Like I wouldn't take any risks. I'd start working a ton. I would start, I would like hoard resources, you know, like, you know, and so like, and I would, I would try to like, I would get really rigid making sure that everything kind of was put in like a lock box and like, you know, or put in my safe and be like, okay, now I've got all this taken care of.
00:44:52
Speaker
and I've got it all planned, but then it wouldn't allow me to move forward or enjoy what I had or or or be present because I'd be like in the future, you know? And so like that kind of stuff is, and I think that everyone has that, everyone has their own, you know, like thing, you know, and it's like,
00:45:14
Speaker
You know, for like the am I secure? It's like that part would kind of bleed over. And so I just work a ton. And I would just like to create security and like you're almost trying to like take control by seizing control, but yeah riddled with anxiety and worry and stress that it's not grounded in like kind of a ah ah calm piece. And it's you know, it's it's stress fueled, right? Anxiety fueled, right?
00:45:37
Speaker
And it's in it's coming of ah ah from a place of deep lack. you know and it's And we all know those people. you know And it's it's interesting because like you know you've got the questions, am I loved? It's like, we are we all know someone, or we've all known so several people that you know for them, their big idea is love is oxygen. They need love.
00:46:02
Speaker
to breathe, to move through the world. you know And without it, therere they just can't even move forward and they feel like they're going to die. you know And it's interesting because for like the Ava and my loved, it's like when they're healthy and they're doing they're in that They're primal truth that I am loved you know, they're they're nurturing the kind they're empathetic they're loving their you know, and When they are not there it's just you know, they keep they isolate they you know hide they they They do all that. Oh, yeah, like emotional gaslighting, you know, it's like they self-sabotage and And so it's like each one has this give and take. And you know with for for me as like one of the primal questions coaches, a huge part of what I do now, especially, you know i've I've got a bunch of guys that are all like, what's my purpose? And the purpose question is so interesting because it's, you know the big idea is really is like, you know to kind of free yourself
00:47:10
Speaker
from figuring everything out. And I think guys are like so, I mean, that's what we're told. You got to figure it out, you got to do it, you got to learn it, you got to do everything. you know And it's funny because like their kryptonite, like for people that don't have this have that question, their big, the total kryptonite or the scramble is like pointless work. So like, yeah just the mundane,
00:47:35
Speaker
That's me. That's me with the six. i'm I'm a blend of the six and the seven. The good enough. The good enough, yeah. And its it's so interesting because, you know, for like the good enough, which is also part of your purpose because, yeah you know, your, your kryptonite is criticism. Oh yeah. Yeah. That was mine for a long time.
00:47:58
Speaker
it's It's so funny because my kryptonite is negative surprises. So when something comes out of the blue, I'm just like, oh, shoot. Oh, crap like what are we going to do? And it drives my partner crazy because she's like, yeah, honey, come on, we're going to get this together. We're doing this together. Yeah.
00:48:19
Speaker
And it's so funny because I was, I was on a call with a client and he's a seven. So, and he was talking about what he was doing. And I said, Hey man, like I know this, sometimes it's hard to hear.
00:48:33
Speaker
you know get this stuff kind of reflected back. And I said, the one your gift is that you see like projects and movements that make life better for everyone else. I mean, that's yeah that's what you're doing is you're literally with your podcast, you are creating movements. It's a project and You're bringing wisdom into the world to improve all of us. I mean, yeah that's that is your gift. Like, that's insane, you know? Yeah. And for a long time, it wasn't there, you know, when I was younger. I was stuck in the scramble, the avoidance.
00:49:13
Speaker
You know, I was trying to prove my worth and enough by doing things and getting achievements and degrees and these things and then purpose feeling aimless. What do I do? I don't know but I knew and then I started doing my own work in therapy and and a lot of reading and you know and then I had some mentors in my life that really helped me along the way and then I started to like not live in my you know back then I didn't have the word scramble I called it shame and Different things but you know um the lie and and um but yeah in the scramble I was I would I would avoid and I wouldn't see it and because there's a lot of fear there a lot of fear, you know And so yeah how do we deal with that fear? Well, I do things to kind of keep it pushed down and not have to face it and you know Don't let anyone really see you um but you know doing the work I realized that doesn't of course that does nothing other than make it worse and so I it's all about connection and vulnerability and so seeing this and I appreciate your your kind words of the gift and I'm like that's I think that's my you know thinking through this lens is you're right my podcast and what I do is really I really want to help people and that gives me a sense of purpose and identity knowing that I'm able to give these things away to people who may not step into a therapy office who may not be ready but maybe I can give some things away by sharing stories and that gets me excited and have conversations all the time like I love doing it it's not taxing it's not
00:50:30
Speaker
I don't have to prove myself, I just show up and I love it. Yeah, you know and it's it's funny because as as a coach too, you know for me, when I sit with these, any guys, you know it's like, I'm like, hey man, I just want you to know that you're safe to be here you know and and it's okay. It's okay to not be okay because we're we're all a little not okay sometimes.
00:50:57
Speaker
you know when when we're in those seasons or we're in those challenges. I mean, 2020, 2021, my whole journey of just like showing learning how to show up to my life in a way that I didn't know was possible.
00:51:12
Speaker
You know, and, you know, it's funny because like, I tell people like, you know, like, I've got a therapy appointment on Friday afternoon. And I was like, Hey, I'm gonna leave early, you know, from our site. And I'm like, I'm gonna leave and i'm I'm going to therapy. And I used to just go, Oh, I got an appointment, you know, like, I just,
00:51:33
Speaker
Because, you know, it was like, i I didn't, and now I'm just like, oh yeah, i got it yeah I'm going to therapy. I got to tune up. I got to show up. I just want to be the best, yeah you know? and And it's funny because, you know, and we live in this culture too, where it's like, oh, well, you need to do the work. It's like, I hear that. And I'm like, which work do you want to do? Yeah.
00:51:53
Speaker
Because you know for us, self-care is it's now just something that we can also consume. yeah but But when we are learning you know how to show up to be a better version of ourselves, right you can only buy so many products before you're like, oh man, I'm not i'm not here.
00:52:19
Speaker
Yeah. You can only get your nails done so many times, um, yeah before, um, you know, um, and so when you think about this, you know, Sam from all the work you've done, I'm wondering, and I think one of the biggest questions I get asked, uh, and I'd be curious to hear your, your answer to this. Cause I think it's a, it's such an important question. but And even when we think of like these seven primal questions and, um, by the way, I think it's a great book and I think a lot of men might resonate with it just kind of getting to it. Cause it's very, um,
00:52:47
Speaker
I don't know. It just kind of gets to the, it gets straight to it. It's just, there's not a lot of fluff. It's just like, here you go. Um, and you and I know, man, you're like, they don't, they don't need fluff. They just want to just, what do I need to do? And I had to, but that's what I appreciate the book. It's like, it's just here, here's the framework. Here's what you need to know. It's not long over explaining. It's just, boom.
00:53:10
Speaker
and And I like how even the layout, like the font, you're right. I like i love the font. It's great. It's just like, thank you. ah i like I read thick books too. I read really thick books, like massive books. But I'm like, you know, this is great. And because I'd recommend this to a lot of guys that I'd see, I'm like, dude, get read this book. In fact, I just recommended it like to two people today.
00:53:29
Speaker
um But I'm wondering, you know, from your from your own story and then also, because again, this question I get asked probably more than anything else in my DMs is how do I help my husband, my partner, my dad, my brother to get help when they don't like, what do I do? And I'm curious your your response to that because that's the one that is hands down the biggest, most often asked question I get.
00:53:55
Speaker
um And I ask people this question, I try to get my own response, but I'd love to hear you going, you know, recently going through your story and your journey. What would you say? and this is this is I get this ask all the time too. And this is what's really hard. and And it's sometimes I just say, you know, I really don't know. I really don't know what I think. And this is something that i I tell people, I said, well, the best way or when a guy wants to get help is when they stop being a human, stop doing.
00:54:28
Speaker
and And usually, you know for for me, and I can tell you, like we in our culture, men, we act like machines, and machines break down without maintenance. And so I always just tell people, like you know and i i I work in a very masculine you know world, and I've worked with a lot of pretty interesting characters, to say the least. I'm sure, I'm sure.
00:54:54
Speaker
And you know what I always just tell people is like, a man will break down when he can't carry he can't carry his old self anymore. And that can come that can come from a divorce, it can come from a loss, it can come from a medical diagnosis, it can come from something where our humanity shows up in the mirror.
00:55:21
Speaker
and it's It's hard because for the partners out there that are just like, give me the answer. Oh, I know. and and it's And it's so hard because yeah i I think what, and this is something that I've learned, and you cannot force, um a partner cannot force a man to change because it just won't happen.
00:55:45
Speaker
But when you when a partner is not critical of a man, especially in his hard times, I think that that vulnerability that a woman can offer or any partner, and I don't want to say like it's a gender-specific partner, but sometimes the nurturing partner in a relationship dynamic if they even with the level of hurt that like that partner that hasn't gotten help, if they can still extend vulnerability, empathy, you know and love. I really think that's where
00:56:26
Speaker
men can go, there is a different way. And and this is this is, and I could be wrong, but I think there are a lot of men and a lot of partners that have tried to be vulnerable. yeah And maybe their vulnerability was not received and they retreat. Yeah.
00:56:48
Speaker
And then that becomes never again, never again. I tried and I have heard that too. That didn't work. I've heard that from other men too a lot that like, I have tried and it didn't land. And it's like, you know, it was already a big risk for them to try, whether it was perception or actual reality. I don't know because it wasn't there, but I do trust a bit that they made an attempt and then, you know, I'm not gonna, and so they retreat farther back, back in their cave. Oh yeah.
00:57:16
Speaker
And it's like you know trauma wound all over again, right? Relational wound over again, mom wound, dad, whatever the wound is, dad wound, mom wound, all over again. And then it's like, nope, mm-mm, not gonna go there. I think, and it's it's interesting being married to a therapist. and She does really incredible work with women, you know?
00:57:39
Speaker
And she's you know she's always like, hey, you know the husband's not on board. And I said, yeah, but's that's common. I always tell people, like the greatest gift, so if you've got a partner that isn't changing, the greatest gift you can give to that partner is you do the work yourself, change, grow. Yeah.
00:58:02
Speaker
and and learn to love yourself because when one partner changes, for not not for the other partner, when that person just goes, you know, honey, and you know, i I've heard it from women and they're just like, my husband won't do this. They said, you do the work for you.
00:58:18
Speaker
change do You become the person you want to be and when you get happier and you get healthier and the quality of your life, the person that's not doing that work, is there's there's going to come this point where it's like they're way up here and the and they're going to go, ah okay, what's going on here? Yeah.
00:58:41
Speaker
You know, and and and that's ah that's a challenge, by the way, for that person to do that because it's kind of a lone thing for a while and you're fighting against it. But I agree with you. I think if you do that work, it eventually will force them to see it. Now, I don't know the outcome of what will happen in that, but eventually is going to come a point where that gap is gonna get pretty far and they and that person who gets healthier is gonna start to respond differently to that guy. um And that might eventually start to kind of make them think and then eventually there'll be some type of tipping point. Always, there always is. um But it ist it is a lot of work though, I would say because in a way you're doing it on your own and it could feel it could feel isolating. yeah you know Because you're trying to like, you care for your partner and it's like, but also there's some wounding there and what do I do?
00:59:30
Speaker
um Interesting, I have this, it's not a theory, but my wife, she started her healing journey before me. And I think it's interesting, it's like, I hear this all the time, you probably do too. And it's, I was very confused in my naivety when my wife started to heal some of her childhood stuff and some of the stuff that the the preexisting operating system, you know, that we, you know, and We both were group in evangelical spaces so we brought our expectations.
01:00:05
Speaker
our deal our idealized roles and what that was supposed to look like huh into our marriage. And we tried really hard to do those things right. And that nearly killed us. You know, it's like what I tell people is like, yeah, you know, like there's a beautiful movement of women really doing this work. And I said, well, do you want to keep women do this work?
01:00:31
Speaker
is they've been oppressed for so long culturally. And because they have the ability to reproduce, they naturally heal because they have this ability. And I was like, and someone was like, doesn't make any sense. I said, think about it. I said, you think about the world at large who nurtures from day one, it's women. They nurture us. we You and I would not be here without a mom.
01:01:00
Speaker
You know, there's no there's no motherless there's no motherless son, you know, because that's how we're all here. And when I i said that out loud to someone, and said they gave me so much grief, and but I was like, no, that's the truth. they They naturally nurture because they they reproduce, they love, and they they know because of their biology, they they experience that regeneration. we We men don't, and so we get stuck.
01:01:29
Speaker
And i I told this, my friend, and they were just like, they were kind of scratching their head. And I was like, listen, I've got a daughter, I've got sons. I watch the way naturally my daughter cares for something. It's just this innate nurture. So of course she's going to heal. But I want to teach my kid, my boys, it's okay to heal, love and grow just because you are human. And that is like your right.
01:01:58
Speaker
Oh yeah. Yeah. No, and I see that my kids too, my daughter, my son, my second son is a, he cares, but it's more of like a service type of care. yeah And he'll help and do things like that. I didn't teach him it. Not at all. He just doesn't. My daughter has this like more of like the gipi comfort, like co cuddle and whole things. Again, not teaching her how to, i I didn't say, okay, I didn't teach them any different. I show up the same with my kids. But do you see this, the the innateness in it? And you're like,
01:02:27
Speaker
yeah Yeah, my boys never did that and not that I never I even tried giving them that and they did but didn't play out that way like they weren't into colding stuffed animals, you know, it was like give me the Chuckle me banging on something and but my middle son is like Let me let me let me help out by doing a service and act like oh he'll help and take things out and He said he wants to like do something. he Give me a job, right? But my daughter has this like in fact, my wife showed me a video today.
01:02:50
Speaker
I made this little setting with a little doll and like, I'm gonna give the food and and then holding and rocking the kid. My boys never did that. And they ah i was and I would hold my kids, I'd rock my kids, and but they would never naturally do that. So it's interesting, like you said, is that there's something healing, not that men can't have nurture because we do, we offer nurturing cover 100%.
01:03:11
Speaker
um but there is something different about that coming. I think it's i think it's more powerful. I think there's a there's a more natural energy to it that and that's feminine, you know? Yeah, and I think this is, so and this sounds, i'm I'm actually really grateful for the generations of men that are are coming because I feel like we are, we're kind of like,
01:03:35
Speaker
we're making it more okay. like like I kind of appreciate like the Gen Z and ah and the these younger generations because they are they're learning how to be more empathetic. you know And it's really beautiful because growing up in our eras, that was if you were soft, and I'm going to use that word, or tender, you were ostracized. Oh, yeah. Big time.
01:04:02
Speaker
And it's interesting because I remember a long time ago, I think I was, I heard Bernie Brown talk on a podcast for a long time ago, and this was years ago, and they were asking her about working with like Navy Seals. And she goes, you know what? The greatest the greatest gift is is to be tough and tender and know that those two things,
01:04:26
Speaker
can coexist. It's so fascinating because my son, my oldest son, practices jiu-jitsu. And it's it's so interesting because it is a lethal sport. It's... Oh, yeah. Big time. But what I've learned watching him with his coaches is that it's not ah about hurting someone else. It's simply neutralizing and subduing an aggressive force. Mm-hmm.
01:04:56
Speaker
And it's so funny because when I think about, you know, guys, you know, the partners that don't want to change. I always tell, I tell plenty of women, I was like, you do the work, strong boundaries, and do not, like, do you not bring yourself down to his level.
01:05:15
Speaker
Right, yeah, don't shame, don't criticize, don't yeah and go down that level. And just but go, hey, this is a non-negotiable, you know, I mean, my wife did that for me, honestly, without those boundaries and and the strength that it took for her to be like, hey, you need help. oh i was I now look back and go, oh my gosh, that took so much courage and in strength and I'm so grateful that she had that and and and didn't waver. Yeah. So that's what so that's definitely a piece that I think there's a theme there that she was firm boundary, it was very clear and she didn't waver, but she kind of said, hey, you need help. And it was very clear, not shaming, not criticizing, but very clear. And I think that's something that I've heard before too, that I think men, not always, but I think men can respond to that in a way that kind of that firm, but you know, not shaming firm, but firm, clear, you know, clear minded, direct.
01:06:14
Speaker
And as hard as it is, it needs to be done with love. you Yes, because what those guys need is love. Like those guys are actually seeking for authentic love and connection and to feel safe, seen, secure. And there's a lot of fear. And I think my positive is it's funny, you know do all the work I've done through Polyvagal Institute over the past two years, I think a lot of guys, are they're they're really stuck, um those kind of guys. They're stuck in a survival state. They're stuck in fight-flight phase, right? And so- So because of that, you know, I can't, I can't be, because vulnerability is a threat, right? So um like I'm going to, I'm going to force me to get defensive. but That's, that's fight. That's my sympathetic energy. This is a threat. I got to fight my way out of this, yeah or I got to disconnect and run away. I got to numb out. I got to go drink. I got to just kind of totally zone out. which is your dorsal venture, the Britain Vegas nerve, which is kind of a immobilization, disconnection, disassociation. It's like playing game of possum, right? Play dead until the threat goes away and then come you know come back alive again until there's a conflict or a threat. And then I go back into my cycle of fight, flight, free shutdown, right? And so again, and I see this on social media, unfortunately, and there's a lot of like, you know we just need men to feel. I'm like, I get it. Yeah, we do need the men to feel, but telling them to feel is not gonna get them to feel.
01:07:32
Speaker
If anything, telling them the field, especially those kind of men, is just going to activate their their defense mechanisms. and i And I get why they're upset, but that's not the and that's not going to help a guy. That's just going to ostracize them more. you know We don't shame them. um it's like it takes And the problem with this is it's not a light. I think there's some expectation that there's it's a light switch.
01:07:50
Speaker
you know yeah You can't just turn it on. you know This is gonna be a journey. This is gonna be a journey for that guy and for the family and for you as the partner because he's gonna undo and unpack his whole story and his narrative and his shame and his and his core fear, which you know go back to the problem question, like the fear that that question is a no, I'm not enough. i'm not loved, I'm not secure, I'm not successful, I don't have a purpose. It's like, that is like death, right? So why, and you know, if you think about why in the hell would I ever come close to that? I'm not, examining i'm gonna I'm gonna keep fighting. And so it's gonna take a lot of love, a lot of, you know, firm kind, but firm, you know, firmness, you know, love, and that's hard work. So I feel for those partners, like that's not easy work.
01:08:41
Speaker
At all. It's not. And you know, it's it's interesting because, you know, I always, when you when you start to heal and you're you're brave enough, and or you're and not brave enough, when you're broken enough.
01:08:58
Speaker
When you are, you're broken enough, and this is what I always like to i think, i and I tell my clients, and it's part of like on my website, I said, you know, you were already good.
01:09:11
Speaker
we're just gonna build you back better. and And for some people, it's like always, you and I both grew up in a faith system where you were taught like, you're not good, you're not good, you're not good. you and And I think those messages you know had good intentions.
01:09:29
Speaker
Yeah. Just sometimes the execution and the delivery didn't hit us in really good ways. So, you know, when we care a lot, we carry that along in certain places, you know, I think it's important. Like I always, you know, because I've, I've heard all this, I've heard a lot of the stories and you know, it's like, I'm all messed up. I can't, you know, I'm like, no, you're good. You just, we just got to get you a little bit better than you are because I think too, because we live in a very fast-paced culture and we want to hack everything. We want to hack healing. We want to hack our No.
01:10:10
Speaker
I think the hardest part, and this is something i I've worked with some of my clients, I said, the hardest part is the slow journey back to you. I said, and this journey back to you is going to be long. It's going to feel slow and it's going to feel lonely. You know, and I said, but the one thing if I can, if the only thing I can do is to get you from, to move from like neck down to your heart,
01:10:37
Speaker
I said, and we can return to your home, that home that you were born with, that you're carrying every day, and you're being told that it's not good enough or it's not whatever. you know it's like It's that whole list, it's that coming back to that heart center question, that primal question.
01:10:57
Speaker
why that's then the work is there, then that is where you're healing. I said, and you might not, you might not feel it, you know, in a week, two weeks, a month, you know, a year. And I can i can honestly say my return home to my heart space, it's a practice you you have to do every day.
01:11:19
Speaker
i I get disconnected just like everyone else, but there is that that joy of coming back to you and who you really are is like the true wealth yeah of life. It really is.
01:11:35
Speaker
Yeah, I agree. And I love what you said. I love that you said that, Sam. And I think, you know, that journey home, you know, of the head to the heart, because it is, I think a lot of guys are um and generally speaking here that are stuck, are stuck in their head and stuck disconnected from the place that we all begin with as children is kind of very much in our heart.
01:11:58
Speaker
right very much in our body and then we get told or things are along the way, messages, whatever, whether it's implicit and sometimes it's very explicit, like oh very much so, that where there is a disconnection as a means of survival and so in a way to survive, it moves to the head in a disconnection because to be here is not safe and so I love that. that journey home kind of head down, you know, connecting in. Not that we we don't want to negate the head, we need that, but it's it's the integration of the mind and the body and the soul. It's coming back, so and beautifully said. And it's the intentionality to return to the wholeness that we were born with that was separated. Yeah.
01:12:42
Speaker
because we all know that there's always those points where we learned it wasn't safe to be home in our body. And, you know, you can label it however you want, but it the real the real thing is, and when you return home, if you're ever just alone, you're never lonely.
01:13:02
Speaker
Nope, no, because you know who you are and you can answer that primal question is I am, not yeah am I, it's no I am. And you know that deep in your core. And so when you can't answer that I am, you know, um enables you freedom and your capacity to be, to give your gift away to those around you to yourself. And then there's no striving, it's not anxious, it's it is lifelong work though. I think to some degree, you're always practicing awareness and you know where am I? you know I do it yeah to stay like, hey, I got stuck. Okay, come back. you know it's But it's like ah it's smaller corrections now, small course corrections versus like, well, I'm way out there. you know It's like, no, it's it's you know it's like, you just kind of bring it back to center, bring it back to center. you know
01:13:43
Speaker
Um, and as we, you know, as we wrap up, I'm conscious of the time hour and a half in this will be good. So if you're with us, if you're still listening, uh, I don't know what to do, comment, whatever, like, like it, share the episode. Um, cause we, you know, there's so much more that we can talk about this, but I think we need a part two and we can go super deep into the seven primal questions. oh yeah Um, you know, any any closing thoughts for tonight or definitely share where we can find you. If you want people to do coaching with you, but you know, So you can find me at um sampowerscoaching dot.com. um I have a landing page. You can reach out through there. um You can also find me on Instagram and TikTok at Swami Powers.
01:14:25
Speaker
and And it's, it's, it's a play on my name and it's also one of my favorite. Yeah. it's boy Well, it's a surf spot in San Diego. It's one of my favorite surf spots. I ironically, this self-realization fellowship is right there. That's why they called the Swamis.
01:14:41
Speaker
oh yeah And so, and then you can also, you can see me probably more over on my wife's Instagram at Chrissy J Powers because I pop on there. And ah you know, it's what I, what I always like to say is like, I'm not going to change your life because really only you can change your life. I will just provide the tools and some of the steps and the the guardrails. yeah I mean, to just build a better you because yeah you are good and your past your past will not, it cannot define the success of your future.
01:15:23
Speaker
and And I think that's something that I think that a lot of men, a lot of people, and and i I was guilty of this too. i There were points where my past, I was like, I was letting that define how I moved forward. And I can say that like healing is possible for everyone. yeah And it's you're worthy of being loved and loving yourself.
01:15:49
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Because the world needs that. The world needs you to be you. That's the gift that I can't give. You know, Sam can't give. Only you can give that gift. You know, and that's uniquely you. Yeah. um Yeah. I say to all the clients I work with is like.
01:16:04
Speaker
No, the the beautiful thing is that the world needs you to be you. And the world needs you to be whole and holistic and integrated so you can give that gift away in in a way that's actually benefiting you and the world um in a very healthy way. And so, um you know, I know people don't always believe that when they hear that because they're stuck in their own scramble, they're stuck in their own fear. I get that, but I say it anyway. Like, I know i tell you're probably not gonna believe I'm gonna tell you, but I would say it right now. And yeah I'm gonna keep reminding you of this as we work together.
01:16:32
Speaker
because eventually it's gonna click and eventually that light bulb's gonna go on, you're gonna get it. Yeah, so as we close out any final, you know, one word of encouragement, is it just that, hey, just anything at all? Besides finding that- I need to say, when you can learn to love yourself authentically, holistically, you can change the world that you live in and the world that is around you.
01:16:55
Speaker
love it and all and And really, it you don't need to save the world, but if you can change your world, the world will heal. Love it. um One final random question that I'm gonna, I don't know why I haven't been doing this since I've been interviewing people, but I'm gonna implement this now moving forward. It's it's it just, because I think I totally relate to your vibe, you know punk rock 90s, like that's me, because that was what I do. So I'm gonna start adding this in to everyone I ask. And again, why haven't done this?
01:17:23
Speaker
Maybe I was being too serious before. But it's like, hey, what what record are you listening to right now? Like, what what do you plan on? What is the record you're listening to right now?
01:17:34
Speaker
Okay, so I'm a musical misfit, which is really, so Mike, I'll just give you a snapshot. So I'm listening to Massey Star. I'm back on a little Massey Star kick because all those sad, beautiful days, like in those early days of like being a teen and just hearing Hope Sandoval's voice, just There's something beautiful of it. I'm listening to La Loma, which is like an instrumental Cuban band. um I'm also listening to ah the Vevateer band, which is ah up on high. And then today we finished off with Black Sabbath.
01:18:18
Speaker
Nice. And a little bit of Misfits. I was playing Misfits for my 11-year-old and I was like, dude, this is really good. And he's like, okay, dad. that's it's I was like, dude, this like changed my life.
01:18:36
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah.
Musical Tastes and Inspirations
01:18:37
Speaker
Yeah. they I love it. I love, I love the, the eclectic cult, you know, oh yeah yeah it's this, there's a nice little of spectrum here you're hitting and I love that. And it's, I feel like I need to ask that more because you get so much insight into someone's life right there when you hear what music is listening to. So let me turn this on you. What are you listening to right now?
01:18:55
Speaker
Oh gosh, well right now, I have the newest Sufjan Stevens album. Oh so good, oh my gosh. I have the record of that, and I have a record player, my kids love the record player. Oh, so cool. Cause they like, they want it, they feel it, you know, they don't like.
01:19:13
Speaker
ah's the digital as much. So they're into it. And then um they love, I recently just got to see the 20th year anniversary of postal service and death cap for QT when they did the record transatlanticism straight. And then the whole postal service record straight through that at the Hollywood bowl. And so been spinning postal service lately, record of my kids. right Love that. They love dancing. We live in dance parties. And that was an amazing show by the way. Happy music, right? like Amazing show. Exciting. I mean, transatlanticism is not as happy. I mean, if the lyrics aren't that happy, but no you get your body into it. Postal Service is great. like I've seen Death Cab numerous times, but the Postal Service stuff, I've actually never seen that live. So that was an amazing experience at the bowl. So Death of the Postal Service, the new Sufjan record. um I think those are the big ones I've just been spinning lately, just the past like couple of weeks. if If you like Postal Service, have youve have you heard ah Yoke Lore?
01:20:10
Speaker
Uh, the name's not super familiar. Yeah. you is like The album is, uh, towards a never ending new beginning. I just found them yo and they're kinda, they kind of have a little bit of that dance vibe. They've got a little bit of that indie vibe. And it's funny cause I could, that could be a whole podcast about just talking about music because, um, music's like breathing. Yeah. Well, we should do another pot. We should do an episode on that. I would totally do music. Well, that'd be fun.
01:20:37
Speaker
Oh, that would be hilarious. and i I mean, I'm listening to like Zambian psychedelic rock from the 70s. And I listened to really, ah really eclectic music because I played music for a long time. And so I think that when you play music to you get hungry to know. That's the whole, stay curious, be curious, learn. Oh yeah. No, totally. No, I agree with you. It's a thing. Um, I listened to the Beatles song. That was, that was fun. The new Beatles song. That was totally fun. I was like, Oh, this is like totally the Beatles. Like it's like crazy. It's like, it's like crazy how they record. I'm like, this is totally the Beatles. This is nuts.
01:21:14
Speaker
So it was fun, my dad was stoked on that. Cause he saw them grow, when they were touring, that was his era, you know seeing them live when they were touring. I know they still tour, but when they were in their prime. Oh, then the heyday of like yeah hysteria. yeah beattle nose yeah baby Yeah, that was it. They saw that. And so that was, that was his era and, you know, Hendrix and all those things. So that's when, um, you know, Led Zeppelin and all that kind of stuff. Like obviously it was later, but, um, that was their heyday when they were, when they were doing it. But, um, thank you for sharing that. And I'm now going to start asking all my guests, what are they currently listening to? Cause I think that's, Oh, that would be very fascinating. And I missed out on some really big authors and I'm like, that would have been cool to ask them. Like what did they listen to? Like, you know, I know, I will always, I think that's something too that i I always find interesting is the creative act and what inspires someone you know behind, you know what or what do they use to help that that frame of mind, that flow state? And i I love finding out because I'm like, I wanna know, why not? I wanna know too. And I feel like I've missed out on so much information from not asking that question.
01:22:29
Speaker
So you're the first and it's a new trajectory
Podcast's New Trajectory and Conclusion
01:22:33
Speaker
for the podcast. Cause you're going to, let's not look back and regret, let's look forward and go, we're going to learn so many new things and about these unique people. And that's a gift to the world.
01:22:44
Speaker
That's my new thing. Well, thank you. ah Thank you. Thank you, Sam. I mean, gosh, ah we could probably talk for 10 more hours, but I think people would be like, like, let's turn this off now, because it's an hour and 40. So, um dude, have a great night and that everyone sleeps over there in the powers house. And same here, but we'll we'll have you on much sooner. It won't be three years before round two. Perfect. um so I'm up for it.
01:23:11
Speaker
It might be three weeks. Maybe we'll, we'll, we'll speed this up a bit, but right on so thank you, Sam. oh Thank you, Travis. I appreciate it. See you.