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Parentified and Grief (feat. Dr Justin Dodson @ItsDrJKeith)
123 Plays2 years ago
In EPISODE 49 I am joined by Dr. Justin Dodson (@ItsDrJKeith) who practices as a Licensed Therapist in the state of TN working with adult males and couples. Dr. Dodson also provides coaching for non-TN residents, & suicide prevention training to organizations. He is passionate about adult men having voices in spaces where being the man can feel limiting. In this episode he shares about fatherlessness, being parentified at a young age and the impact it can have, and grieving well.
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Transcript
Introduction to the Therapy for Dads Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
You know, I joke with one of my clients where they say that I inherited, you know, this house or inherited this and then other clients was like, no, I inherited the anxiety that was passed down from my family.
00:00:16
Speaker
This is a therapy for dads podcast. I am your host. My name is Travis. I'm a therapist, a dad, a husband here at therapy for dads. We provide content around the integration of holistic mental health, well-researched evidence-based education and parenthood. Welcome.
00:00:38
Speaker
Well, welcome. Welcome to this week's episode of the therapy for dads podcast.
Dr. Justin's Professional Background
00:00:43
Speaker
And tonight, today, this morning, this afternoon, again, whenever you tune into this show, we have a special guest. I have Dr. Justin on. He is a licensed therapist in the state of Tennessee working with adult males and couples.
00:00:59
Speaker
Dr. Justin also provides coaching for non-Tennessee residents and suicide prevention training to organizations. He is passionate about men, adult men, having voices in spaces where being a man can feel limiting. Welcome, Justin.
00:01:17
Speaker
Hello, hello, good morning. Here it's good morning. It's great, great, great to be here, Travis. It's great to have you. And here's morning too. It's just much earlier than the morning. But we're both morning, so it's great to have you on. It's great to actually have this recorded and talk about what we're going to talk about today. So before we jump into today's topic and what you're passionate about, I'm wondering if you do just a quick bio, just a bit more information about Justin out in Tennessee and give us a little bit more flavor of who you are.
00:01:44
Speaker
Yeah, so I am a native of Memphis, Tennessee. And if you're anywhere from this region, you know that people look at Memphis as a really big thing. It's a thing to be from Memphis. So even when I went to college, our professors would say, you're from Memphis, aren't you? Just because there's a different culture, I suppose, that people see us through. So born and raised here in Memphis, I have an older brother and
00:02:11
Speaker
My mom raised my brother and I after my father passed. My father passed the day before I turned 10 years old and so from there life just changed. I usually went to mixed and integrated schools and then for college I went to UT Chattanooga for undergrad and then I went to Lipscomb University in Nashville which is a small private school.
00:02:31
Speaker
So there I graduated as the first African-American male to obtain a master's in counseling. Then after that, I started working for a nonprofit agency here, working with children and families. And then from there, I finished my undergrad degree. Well, I actually worked for that organization on and off for a few years.
00:02:49
Speaker
And then after working after a couple of years, I went after my doctorate and then I graduated as the first African-American male to obtain a counselor education and supervision degree from the University of Memphis. And so I worked for that nonprofit again. It's, you know, you find your first job and you just stick with it in and out. I've been a college advisor and an instructor. I still teach at the University of Memphis here and there in the master's counseling program. And I've been an assistant director of clinical
00:03:17
Speaker
services. And so more recently, I fell right into exactly what I always said I didn't want to do was private practice.
Transition to Private Practice
00:03:24
Speaker
And so I am loving it. And I think I was always against it because no one really taught you how to do it. People glamorized it in graduate school, if you know what I mean, but no one ever actually said, hey, this is how you run a business. They just said, this is how you listen to people. And so when I reconciled the two, it was a no brainer because I wanted to do a work that felt
00:03:46
Speaker
good and natural and where I could impact lives. I think you get away from that when you work from agency standpoints in some circumstances. So that's a little bit about me. I love traveling. I love resting. People always say, what's your favorite thing to do? I always say, lay down.
00:04:03
Speaker
because, you know, we're in this hustle mentality. It's OK to rest. So and then I'm an author.
Writing on Racial Injustice
00:04:09
Speaker
So I wrote a book a couple of years ago entitled Navigating the Courage of a Single Freckle, Navigating Your Black. And so it's just a series of stories that I compiled after experiencing moments of racial injustice. And I pose questions for the reader to to really think about as a way to create uncomfortable spaces and fill them up.
00:04:30
Speaker
And so when we had a couple of years ago, I think it was George Floyd, that was happening. And so by then I had started writing and I found that that was going to be my purpose, to publish a book as a way to contribute something to everything that was going on. So that's a little bit about me.
00:04:46
Speaker
Yeah, I actually did not know that part about you. I'm just now finding that out. It's like that surprise when you're in therapy and the client surprises you with something. It's not that bad and you're fine. Actually, I would love to read that book. I will definitely link the book in this podcast notes. For those of you that are interested in reading Dr. Justin's book, if there's a link to Amazon or a website, please feel free to send that. I'll share that so people can read it. I'm actually intrigued by the book now that I'm like, oh, that sounds like a book I'd want to read.
00:05:15
Speaker
So afterwards we'll have to buy a copy and link it for people as well to read. It sounds very fascinating, the questions and kind of, I like the title too, the title of the book. It got my brain going. I'm like, oh, what's that mean? And then you told me, I'm like, oh, that's actually kind of quite fascinating. And something else you said being the first black man to grad two different places graduating. Yeah.
00:05:40
Speaker
That sounds mind-blowing. I had no idea what that experience would be like from my end, but I can't even imagine what that must have been like for you over there in two different colleges. It sounds like a really big deal. Was it a big deal for you? I think that hindsight, I believe that it's a big deal. It became a really big deal.
00:06:00
Speaker
When it first, when I was immersed in the programs, it didn't feel like a big deal because it was always my norm to be the minority, especially as a black male counselor. So any conferences I went to or any classes I went to, I was typically the only one. And so, you know, with that, it just, it became, well, this is where you are. This is what you want to do. So this is what you have to do. I did have an awareness of when I would be in class and I'd raise my hand and I would speak up, the whole class would turn around.
00:06:29
Speaker
And no one else did that to anyone else that spoke. But I realized that, oh, they're waiting to hear what you have to say because you don't look like anyone else in the room. And so that's when I realized that, hey, use what you have and speak something that makes sense and that's real so that people can know that you're more than just what they may perceive you to be. Yeah.
00:06:52
Speaker
So, you know, I think that it's great and I always talk about it now because I really know that that's an accomplishment of mine. But in reality, you know, it was just another day. It was another day. Yeah. I'm sure we can unpack that whole that's that comment. It was just another day, which I'm sure you I'm guessing you probably talk about in your book. But, you know, looking back at hindsight, like you said, of what you were going through as a as a man, as a black man.
00:07:18
Speaker
You know, when we talk about hindsight, I look at experiences like losing my father at an early age and what that meant and then getting into programs and looking at what that meant because reality, if we're serious, I wanted to be a lawyer. Everything about me was going to be a lawyer. I practiced mock trial. I studied under a university council here. I was on the trajectory to be a lawyer. And then I went to college and. I said, no.
00:07:45
Speaker
I'm going to be a therapist. And from day one, I majored in psychology and never changed my major. And upon graduating undergrad, they said apply for 10 graduate schools. No, I'm applying to one. And I got in that one, luckily, and it just worked out. So I look at these earlier life experiences as, you know, this is exactly what was supposed to happen for you to get to where you are.
00:08:09
Speaker
And I love that perspective. I definitely buy into that perspective and really firmly believe in that kind of, hey, not that life needed to happen this way, not that we wanted it to occur in this way, but kind of you're looking at these experiences and finding meaning in the suffering, like purpose of the suffering and kind of paving a path there.
00:08:29
Speaker
that hey these things happen and here's how i navigate it and what i'm use how i'm using it for to better me to shape me to mold me whatever it is and i'm wondering if we kind of zip back a little bit and then you know you went to graduate school i'm wondering what it was like how it shaped you to and we kind of talked about this offline about
Impact of Father's Death on Personal Growth
00:08:50
Speaker
the notion of not having a father and losing and how some people might have made conclusions about you that you were fatherless for different reasons, but that the fact that you lost your father. I'm wondering how that shaped you as a young man and then up into kind of through graduate school and now as an adult man, kind of how that shaped you, the loss of your father at such a young age. Yeah, for sure. So earlier on, I quickly realized that, hey, you have to step up.
00:09:19
Speaker
So there wasn't this spoken pressure of, okay, Justin, now we're expecting you to be the man of the house. But there was this unspoken, you know, my mother is trying to pick up the pieces and figure out what it's like to raise two boys, right? So life changes in the matter of moments. And my brother
00:09:37
Speaker
I think he was so distraught that he was more stuck. And so I knew that for me, you have to do something. So I remember earlier on I would try to pay bills and I would try to be the responsible one in the home because I wanted to alleviate any stress that I could feel that my mother felt. And so I realized that at an early age, I was parentified.
00:10:00
Speaker
And so we would go to church. So, you know, it's the South. So we were in church almost every Sunday and people would just see my mom and her two boys. And I found it important to speak up and say, well, our father is deceased because I didn't want people to make the assumption that
00:10:15
Speaker
he was a deadbeat or that he had been incarcerated or that he left my mother or, you know, my parents were married and he had a heart attack and passed away, married for 20 years. And so it was really important for me to portray the real image opposed to being what people would assume is a statistic. And then once I got into my work as a counselor, so fast forward, I found that that was the way that I could connect with young people at the time if they had lost a parent and that was a common ground.
00:10:44
Speaker
But I do recognize that that parentified me at an early age. So then as I grew older, I felt this immense responsibility to never be without because someone was going to always depend on me. I remember this story. I was in graduate school and I was at this time, I think I was probably living on loans or either I had a job, but some way my money wasn't right.
00:11:08
Speaker
And I didn't have money to pay my cell phone bill. Well, at that time, I was paying my phone bill for myself, my mom and my brother. That was a responsibility that I took on. And I remember I didn't have the money and I was panicking because I didn't know what to do. And in my head, I told myself, you can't call mom because
00:11:25
Speaker
she's going to worry because you don't have and you've always had. Somehow you've been able to help and provide and do something, even if that meant like sending money home that you would get from a refund check from college. So that's a whole other story in itself. But that was my way of helping.
00:11:46
Speaker
And I realized that, you know, as I got older, no, you have to create boundaries as a man, as an adult, create boundaries. It's okay not to have, sometimes it's okay to need help and you don't have to do it all. Sometimes sometimes we need help.
00:12:02
Speaker
Yeah. And you use the word parentified. What does parentified mean? For those listening who don't know the clinical terms, a parentified means what, Justin? So basically you are becoming a parent at an early age. So you think about even, I look at it similarly to a latchkey kid where I can go home and unlock the door myself and cook myself and provide for myself at an earlier age than what I would typically be expected to.
00:12:29
Speaker
So at 15, you're acting like a parent to yourself or to someone else opposed to doing things that a normal 15-year-old would do. And what are some of the common maybe household dynamics briefly that you've seen in your practice when a child has become parentified?
00:12:50
Speaker
Yeah. So making sure that they take care of mom and make sure that mom is good, right? I hear that term a lot, making sure that everybody's good. Well, what does that mean? And typically in the work that I've seen, that means that no one is going to bother them. They're going to be physically protected. There's going to be money coming in no matter how that money is made and they won't have to worry about anything. And so I think that people, I think that that's a misconception that
00:13:16
Speaker
making sure that people are good and taking care of people always equates to a physical safety and monetary needs being met, opposed to talking about emotional needs and satisfaction and being able to explore hopes and dreams. And so that's typically what I see in the work that I've done for young people that have been parentified in the early age. And then there's also this sense of anxiety. A lot of young people absorb this anxiety that, you know,
00:13:45
Speaker
I joke with one of my clients where they say that I inherited you know this house or inherited this and then other clients was like no I inherited the anxiety that was passed down from my family so I see that a lot in the work that I do so I'm trying to change the narrative of people to know like hey as an adult you can create a boundary and say hey I'm only gonna do these things because I have to take care of myself over
00:14:09
Speaker
here. And I found myself, that was a real thing for myself. So eventually I said, well, I'll take care of this, this and this, but I can't do anything else because now I have to figure out what life is going to look
Parentification and Adult Life
00:14:19
Speaker
like for me. And this was never, you know, in some cases I know that it's asked directly of the youth or the young person. But for me, it was just an unspoken thing that I absorbed on my own.
00:14:34
Speaker
Yeah, it was intrinsic. It sounds like, you know, the passing down anxiety, passing down a house. Yeah, different things get passed down. And some things that I've seen with those that have been parentified, it doesn't just come from a home without a parent, whether through someone passing or through divorce, which I have seen that happened often because someone has to fill the role. Typically, too, it tends to be the firstborn tends to take on, in general, that I've seen. The firstborn will kind of take on that
00:15:02
Speaker
a role of parent, whether it's the eldest daughter, eldest son. But I've also seen people parentified in homes when there's addiction, you know, alcohol addiction, drug addiction, domestic violence, you know, things like this that can happen because then the parent, especially if there's alcohol or drugs, the parent then is not really being a parent because they're high or they're drunk. So then someone takes on that taking care of parent role. I mean, is that kind of what you've seen as well on other kind of home dynamics for those that have been parentified?
00:15:32
Speaker
That so even, you know, so that's going to be more of the technical definition that we often see in therapy. And then even when we, we don't think about when, when parents mentally just don't have the skills to take care of the child or the family. And so either I have my kid at a very young age.
00:15:49
Speaker
or I simply never received what I needed from my parents. And money and resources don't automatically mean that you have what you need. And so that's where we have a lot of people that their emotional intelligence isn't high. So they can't problem solve and they don't know what to do in different circumstances. So if I am the eldest child or the responsible child or the one that's seen as smart or capable,
00:16:16
Speaker
then I am going to in most cases be placed in a role at an early age to then be caretaker, parent, provider. And I'm going to find myself doing unorthodox things that, you know, if I could be doing a school dance, but I'm making dinner.
00:16:31
Speaker
I am making sure that the parent gets ready for work. And so the roles have been completely reversed, which is what you typically see as you become older and your parents become older, right? Where you, all right. So my friends and I, we always jump and say, all right, we're transitioning into taking care of our parents and looking after them. Like you may be an adult, but so
00:16:52
Speaker
that that role is just happening much, much earlier when people are parentified. And so that's a that's a that can be a traumatic experience because you lose out on the vulnerability of being a child and in the the ability to
00:17:09
Speaker
do things that normally you shouldn't have to be worried about. So it's an interesting concept, especially to work with adult men who have experienced that earlier on, because then I find that they then find escapes and other things that may not necessarily be
00:17:26
Speaker
Completely functional or healthy, but if I missed out on on time that can stunt my growth to a certain degree or in other cases I've seen where it makes me so confident and so The word is escaping me right now, but I don't even know how to let people help me
00:17:44
Speaker
Like an over-reliance, like an overly-independence kind of thing. I'm kind of thinking out loud in this term, but like an over-reliance on self, kind of a lack of reliance on others, kind of hyper-independence of like, well, I'm just gonna...
00:18:00
Speaker
I have to really take care of me because I can't really rely on anybody else. Exactly. Is that okay? Yeah. Yeah, the parentified thing too is I have seen homes where both parents are there. And there isn't alcohol. I mean, obviously those are more the typical, but where there isn't alcohol drugs, but there's like a lack of emotional attunement. Meaning there's no validation, like motions aren't really allowed in the home. And so the child is having this big hole, this big hole in the need of just being able to learn emotional intelligence.
00:18:29
Speaker
having to kind of shut that down and have to be more adult and, you know, take care of themselves or the brother or sister or whatever. And it's not always, I would argue, and you could tell me and then we're going to jump into kind of what you're seeing with the men you're working. You know, it's not always necessarily all negative or evil that a kid becomes parentified. I think of your situation, it's like, okay, you lost your father and so,
00:18:53
Speaker
In a way, it's like a natural way of trying to navigate this void. I mean, at least how I'm seeing it of, okay, dad had this role and now dad's gone. And how does the family shift to this, you know, fill this void and taking care of the whole unit? I mean, so I don't really see it as necessarily bad or your mom purposed it or like, it's like, this is just what happened. And you kind of said, Hey, I need to help out. Is that, I mean, can you speak more about that?
00:19:22
Speaker
I think that, I think most, like most things, it's on a spectrum, right? So when you talked about, uh, it can happen when, when there's abuse or neglect or substance use in the home. And then we have the condition where someone just may not have the emotional skills to be able to provide for someone else. And you also have the perspective that you can take from that, Hey, this is what life did. And that's completely okay.
00:19:45
Speaker
I did not get hurt by it. I was always physically safe. As an adult, we realized that, hey, I chose to do some of these things as well. There's a responsibility that you can accept there, and there's a perspective taking to it.
00:20:02
Speaker
things work out the way that they, you know, that they were going to. And so you can find meaning in everything. A lot of people say everything happens for a reason and you can also find meaning in the things that happen to you and not allow that to deter you or allow you to have a negative life perspective. And so I think that things are beautiful and, you know, we grow up to be adults to realize that our adult parents were doing what they could with what they had.
00:20:31
Speaker
And then we as adults get to rewrite the narrative of what we want to do. I always tell people in therapy that your parents represent two things, how you want to be and how you don't want to be. And so you get to pick and choose things like my mom is probably the sweetest, most generous.
00:20:50
Speaker
kindest person you will ever meet. And then I see aspects of other family members where it's like, not going to do that. Not going to be for me. It worked for you. Just, I don't want to do that. Or I see other people, you know, other friends, families and their parents and it's like, okay, you get to add and subtract in order to make up what you want to do and what feels good.
00:21:09
Speaker
that parentification too of that, you know, I think sometimes, gosh, you're a therapist, so of course what you're saying, like, yeah, it's awesome, because that's the healthy perspective, is that, hey, that the parents represent us two things, kind of what you want to be and what you don't want to be, and kind of taking in the good.
00:21:28
Speaker
the bad and the ugly saying hey the parents did the best they can with the tools they had and sometimes it was horribly wrong sometimes it is kind of acknowledged with hey yeah they were really ill-equipped and they did some horrible things and I'm not gonna do that but it's still this kind of like they did the best they could with what they knew and kind of maybe their past trauma or whatever it is their their life because they have a story too for sure
00:21:52
Speaker
And what a great perspective of saying, how do we as an adult, in a way, we can heal our parental wounds and kind of those developmental deficits as we get older in therapy, which just sounds like what you're doing with the men that you're working with.
00:22:06
Speaker
And so for you, you mentioned, like, what was the meaning you derived from that? Because you kind of spoke about that briefly in passing, saying, you know, it's kind of what you make of it. So what did you make of it in that season of, you know, after the loss of your father and kind of growing up that you had something like a purpose or a meaning in there that I think what I'm hearing kind of drove you to keep, to not let the loss be so crushing and devastating.
00:22:34
Speaker
But I'm going to use this and I'm going to not just be stuck because of it, but I'm going to keep moving forward. So what was that for you? Can you speak on that for a quick second? So I've learned that grief
00:22:49
Speaker
isn't just for a time period. And I think that's the misconception that people think that when you lose something, right? There's a loss, not necessarily just a person, but loss comes in many forms. That grieving is supposed to only last three days if you get bereavement on your job and then you're supposed to be okay. Or six months if you get FMLA for leave, right? But grieving, that can be a lifelong process. And so for me, it was how do I hold space for
00:23:19
Speaker
remembering, recognizing, and grieving this loss while also going after what I really desire, which is some form of success, right? So two things can coexist at the same time. I can strive for what I always wanted to be, which is, you know, back then, my imagination always tell people my imagination was my superhero because that's what allowed me to escape into a world that I didn't see in front of me.
00:23:48
Speaker
So I envisioned myself being successful. And I say successful because in the last couple of years, my definition of that has changed. But back then it was go to college, get a car, get a house, have money, which I think those things, you know, obviously that's still a part of it. But now I see more than that. So for me, it was truly knowing that two things can coexist at once. I can hold space for this loss while also striving for what I want to do in life and what I want to become.
00:24:16
Speaker
because my parents always taught me have more than what I had do better than what I did achieve more than than what we did and so that was the mission so I can't do that if I am
00:24:27
Speaker
laid out not doing anything I have to get up and there's a space for that and there's also a space to go after it and get it. Yeah beautifully said that holding is that dichotomy of both both end can coexist and I know I'm sure you do this as well with our clients that we see is really helping them understand that
00:24:48
Speaker
These two emotional states, these two things often can coexist in teaching them the balance of what that looks like, of holding these two kind of things that are in seemingly an opposition of one another that they can't, it's not either or, but it's like these both can be in us and we can wrestle with both.
00:25:10
Speaker
And still move forward. Yeah, and it sounds you know I'm guessing you could really help speak to that to some of those clients like you said those that have lost a parent you really can have that deep empathy of your own understanding of really sitting in that space of and Understanding grief because you're right I think we don't grieve very well in society puts it on like three days or get a week and it's like the expectation is well you should be you know kind of the
00:25:37
Speaker
Dust it off, bounce back, be okay. Ready to go. And a lot of people struggle with like, why am I still sad six months in? And we had to really educate. So what is, I'm curious, we'll talk about these two is like, how have you seen grief play on educating men grieving?
Men's Emotional Challenges
00:25:55
Speaker
What has it been like for you and some of the things you've seen as men of face kind of grief and loss in their life and therapy? Yeah, so I think that,
00:26:03
Speaker
What I've seen is many of the men that I see aren't very familiar with how to identify their feelings. And so I'll hear, you know, in pop culture, there are terms that say in my feelings, right? Drake made a song maybe 2018 in my feelings. So then that became the phenomenon that people carry.
00:26:24
Speaker
And then I think it was a rich homie calling like maybe several years ago that said feel some type of way. So then we come into therapy and we say, well, yeah, I had to get out of my feelings. Okay. What does that mean? Let's tease that out some to figure out, all right, what does that mean to get out of your feelings? Okay. Well, I felt frustrated. Okay. So when you felt frustrated, where did you feel that in your body? How do you know you felt frustrated? So it's really about labeling what our clients are feeling and to give those
00:26:53
Speaker
those feelings language. And then we get to decide, all right, well, what do you want to do when you feel this way? And so what I've seen with grief, it's truly labeling how you feel and then figuring out the space that it's okay to feel that.
00:27:10
Speaker
You know, I think oftentimes we don't want to feel things that don't feel great. We don't want to be without. We don't want to feel stuck. And sometimes we have to experience that, not stay there, experience it. And I think there's a difference. Experience that to see what it feels like and then come up with a plan or steps or skills in order to overcome that and recognize that when this happens again,
00:27:37
Speaker
Now I've built this muscle memory and this neural pathway where I know what to do the next time because a lot of people say, well, if this happens or if this person passes, no, it's more about when. And I think that's more of an existential perspective, but it's really accepting. The truth is things change. There are adjustments, you know, even when we talk about
00:28:01
Speaker
professionals where I may lose my job or I may lose my position or a title or there's something that I am tied to a neighborhood, a friend, a school, being an athlete, being a doctor, right? So all these things that I strive for. And then if I lose that, what does that now mean for me? What does that mean for my family? What does that say about me as a man?
00:28:27
Speaker
Because up until this point, maybe the whole mission was to become this thing. So then if I don't achieve that, I've lost the sense of purpose. If I don't maintain it, I've lost the sense of security. So almost like a loss of identity. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. This is who I am. And now it's gone. Now who am I? You know, that identity, existential identity crisis of, okay, who's Travis now? Who's Justin now that this thing is not here?
00:28:57
Speaker
And then you mentioned what the grief is, is teaching them kind of this, you know, not to stay, I think stuck you said, right? Not to, so what do you, how do you teach, you know, like in a session, imagine with the client. So kind of what would you say to that person of, Hey, we need to feel and be present to that part of grief, because it's kind of waves. And I use the analogy, like waves in the ocean. When I talk about grief with my client said, Hey, sometimes the seas are very calm for,
00:29:22
Speaker
long time and then it's like it just hits you like a big wave and it could be years later but I'm wondering you kind of made a point to say hey we can be there we don't want to stay stuck there so you know what do you kind of give them as a tool to kind of help equip them with that idea of feeling and being in and kind of riding those waves versus kind of staying stuck in it
00:29:44
Speaker
So I think that A, to normalize what do you expect. So even when people come to therapy, first session, second session, we're talking about the expectations of this can be an uphill battle and every session may not feel so great. And so really expecting or placing expectations on what's to come. I think the same thing is to be realistic about grief that
00:30:05
Speaker
I may feel okay today and tomorrow may not be so great. And to know that this will be a roller coaster wave, but if I feel something, allow it to come up for me, opposed to suppressing it. Because a lot of people I'll see, they'll come into therapy and something happened 20 years ago and they never really addressed it.
00:30:24
Speaker
because they just kept moving so i think it is important for us to acknowledge what has happened accepted feel as crappy about it as as we naturally feel right so allow that thing to come up and then also there's the container exercise where let's say that i'm getting ready for work
00:30:44
Speaker
or I'm at work and all of a sudden I feel this overwhelming emotion. Breathe. Let's do it. You know, if you have an Apple watch, if you have an app on your phone to do 30 seconds, one minute, two minutes of breathing, let's place that thing aside and come back to it later.
00:31:00
Speaker
Right. So there it's okay. I really have to go into this meeting right now. I really have to tend to my spouse. I really need to do this thing with my kid. So it's not that, all right, forget about that. It's, let me come back to this later. Let me prioritize this. That's in front of me and grieve and feel that thing later. So I'm putting it in a container in my head and then I'm just going to come back to it.
00:31:24
Speaker
And have you seen the men that you work with respond to that kind of exercise with one, you know, you're working with them to get in touch with their feelings and their body, you know, you're also doing kind of that body somatic work of really kind of connecting them to their body. And then now this container. So how have you seen men respond to that kind of technique? You see it helping them. You see it's a difficult thing. Do you think, Oh, they get it. And it's like, that's the thing that helps them kind of. They could think that way. Like what are you seeing?
00:31:47
Speaker
Yeah. I think that when new things are introduced for my clients, it's just that it's new and it's unfamiliar. And so sometimes we don't know what to do with that.
00:32:00
Speaker
And I think that people are surprised by it, but then once they try it and give it a chance, they appreciate it. But it's getting past that discomfort and this thing that's unfamiliar. And so I think that that makes the difference. I always tell people, if you're only doing the work while you're in this office or online with me,
00:32:19
Speaker
then you're not fully investing in this because I'm going to give you a therapeutic assignment and the expectation is to do that before we meet again. And so when you're in this process of healing or working on yourself or achieving your goals, it's an ongoing thing. It's not just a 50 minute at a time thing. It's all right, once I leave this room, what am I going to do?
00:32:43
Speaker
What am I going to reflect on? What am I going to journal? Am I going to breathe? Am I going to exercise? Am I going to change my appetite for maybe something that I was doing that wasn't very functional for me and replace that behavior? So it's usually accepted after it's tried.
00:33:00
Speaker
And what do you think a good expectation of grief would be? Like grief and loss. So what do you think a healthy, or what do you teach your clients that a healthy view and expectations of grief and loss should look like? Cause what we do know, it's definitely not that, Hey, it's three days. It's not a week. It's not, it's not a month, but what are you kind of helping your clients understand, or maybe even from your perspective of what you think a healthy view of grief and losses? I think feeling what you feel and you can't let anyone dictate how you feel.
00:33:30
Speaker
You know, oftentimes we have this habit of asking a friend, should I feel, should I be mad? Should I be sad? Should I still be? And so we ask for permission to feel and to experience something from someone else's perspective. And that's not fair to ourselves, to give ourselves credit and permission to experience something. And then also, what am I going to do with what I do feel, right? So if I feel anger, anger is not a bad thing. Frustration, that's not a bad thing.
00:33:59
Speaker
But what I do with that and how I use it makes the difference. Am I going to be angry and breathe and figure out where this is coming from? Am I going to be angry and aggressive to get my need met? I think that's the difference. Yeah.
00:34:13
Speaker
Yeah, what we do when we have these emotional states is not so much, like you said, not so much the feelings themselves are fine, they're not bad, not evil, they're not wrong. It's what we do with them and how we process and use them and how we move that energy or that emotional state into something that's actually healthy and productive for us or if it's actually creating more suffering or more pain or creating more trauma, whatever you want to call it. And I guess to be, not to be obvious with this question, but should we put a timeline on grief?
00:34:41
Speaker
No, I don't think so. I think that actually you were reading my mind because that was what I was going to say next. So I have people where everybody just responds differently and no one can say how Travis is going to respond and what's going to be appropriate for Travis. It's going to look different between Justin and Travis because of life experiences, because our ability to cope and manage with things. So give yourself the time that you need and then also pick yourself up.
00:35:10
Speaker
So I don't know if that sounds contradicting, but if I, if I feel like I need a few extra days before I go back to work, take that. If I feel like I need to take a leave, take that. If I am still experiencing these emotions, you know, months and months later, hopefully you've done some work toward been in therapy or at least done some type of work to manage how you feel. But it is important to get out of the bed and take a shower.
00:35:37
Speaker
eat something. I was asking my client, did you eat something today? What did you do today that felt good, that was also healthy? What thoughts are you having? What are you saying to yourself? Are you speaking true and helpful thoughts versus untrue and unhelpful thoughts? So feel what you need to feel. And then while doing that, doing the work to combat anything that's going to potentially keep you stuck. Yeah. And now for a short break.
00:36:06
Speaker
So if you're looking for ways to support the show and my YouTube channel, head on over to buy me a copy.com forward slash therapy for dads. There you can make a one time donation or join the monthly subscription service to support all that I'm doing at the intersection of fatherhood and mental health.
00:36:23
Speaker
and all the proceeds go right back into all the work that I'm doing, into production, and to continue to grow the show to bring on new guests. So again, head on over to buymeacoffee.com forward slash therapy for dads. Thanks and let's get back to the show.
00:36:39
Speaker
When would you want to tell your client or what point would you want to educate your client about they're starting to like really degrade and now it's starting to kind of take over their life or now it's maybe taking them out of living. At what point, what are some of those kind of indicators?
Understanding Grief and Healing
00:36:57
Speaker
I would say that if you're having unhealthy thoughts, so if you are still in denial after a long period of time and we haven't transitioned things in life,
00:37:09
Speaker
if you are having unhelpful thoughts and you're speaking negatively to yourself, if you're not taking care of your basic hygienic needs, if you're not eating, if you've completely isolated yourself from other people, if you're no longer investing in the things that bring you joy and happiness, if that persists over a longer period of time,
00:37:32
Speaker
then that for me is an indicator of being stuck. If you feel like there's this fog, which I'm really now describing depression, but if you feel like there's this fog that just won't leave you, right? So even if we look at the diagnostic manual, the DSM, you know, these symptoms need to persist for six months at a time, three months at a time. But if you experience that for that period of time,
00:38:00
Speaker
Okay, what are we gonna do about that? What can we do? So really looking at what's the difference between, all right, this is typical, this is what to be expected, but then if that adds and that lasts, then we're looking at being stuck and we wanna make sure we do something about that because we don't want us to feel, and then also if you're investing in unhealthy things, in unhealthy habits, so am I turning to substances to make me feel better? Am I turning to sex or masturbation or pornography or
00:38:30
Speaker
really, really bad food and binging and neglectful ways for myself. Yeah. Yeah. And I heard you say that they can turn into, and I've seen it can turn into, you know, grief and loss in some cases, especially early on, can often look a lot like symptoms of depression.
00:38:49
Speaker
Because in a way, you are depressed, like you have a depressed mood, you know? You're gonna be sad, like you're gonna, of course, you're gonna maybe even feel guilty. There's some similarities between some symptoms of depression as well as grief. And I think timing, I think, is absolutely right. Like how long has someone stuck here? And is it starting to look more like depression, right? Because sometimes grief is just grief. We need to give people time, you know? Because we think of depression like two weeks, right, or more.
00:39:17
Speaker
You know is a you know with these you know meeting this amount of criteria would be major depressive episode But you know sometimes that is just grief Obviously if we start having like maybe suicidal thoughts something else, but then we might need to shift it a bit But you know if they just meet somebody you know what five of the criteria. They need right is it five. I believe five. Yeah, I think so and
00:39:37
Speaker
Some of those five is what grief is, you know, depressed mood, sad, low energy, not sleeping well, right? Like, and you know, was it appetite changes, right? Those are five criteria. And if you're feeling it for two weeks, that could just, that's grief as well, which is totally okay. Like you said, it's learning to,
00:39:58
Speaker
how to learn to grieve well, but then if it gets, that's that darker place of if we're starting to like, now we're losing too much weight and maybe, you know, we're turning to substances, we're maybe not getting suicidal thoughts or we're doing things that are more risky and now we can't function and maybe we can't function, we're not showering now for like a month and you know, we're, then we're looking at, okay, we're turning to depression where we might need to do a different intervention for someone.
00:40:23
Speaker
But really, I think sometimes we can, in our society, I think, since it preaches this kind of three days or week, you know, that, no, actually, grief looks a lot like kind of symptoms of depression. And it's going to last longer than two weeks, especially depending on the loss and type of loss. And there's such a variant of what can happen. I've even seen some
00:40:48
Speaker
some jobs where depending on the relation the person was to you, they change your days. So I think maybe the max is three days. So I think I worked with somebody where maybe their spouse's grandparent passed, and I think they may have only had a day. They were given a day, but if it was someone in their immediate family. So I recognize company have, they have HR standards, but truly how do you get to dictate that I,
00:41:15
Speaker
should only have one day to grieve for this person that you don't think was close to me. I think that's bizarre. What message do you think it sends to have it three days? It means that this job is important and you need to get back to it.
00:41:32
Speaker
take you know people will say take the time you need but keep it within 72 hours right so it's this it's this false sense of support and understanding and that for me it takes the human element out of what people need to what makes people healthy and and what what it looks like to truly because if i really take care of myself
00:41:53
Speaker
people preach self-care that may not fit into what you need for me to perform on this job. But the reality is, if I don't take care of myself, then how can I truly perform on this job? So if I am coming back after three days and I needed more, what good am I to you anyway? So I think it really just, it falsely supports people. So I don't, you know, I don't want any HR people come screaming at me, but I do think that it would be worth reevaluating that practice.
00:42:21
Speaker
And it just doesn't have to be a parent or grandparent that is passed or it could be a neighbor. It could be a friend. It could be your friend's mom who you grew up with that was always there for you as well.
00:42:34
Speaker
Yeah, it's one of those kind of systemic changes in our society of, you know, we don't grieve very well in our Western society, typically. And then even things with these numbers, these unspoken expectations that it sets up for us to just be okay and to move on versus how do we grieve well, you know.
00:42:54
Speaker
educating on grieving well what that looks like so people understand because most people that come in at least my experience they they have this this kind of unspoken expectation in their head of I gotta go back to work and I have to I gotta do this I set the function and it's kind of these these things and I think systemically that's that's you know in our society that you know it will change one day I don't you know I don't know but at least we can teach our clients and
00:43:19
Speaker
Helpfully help them see what a healthy version of grief and loss looks like at least they can navigate it better But I know there's barriers that's hard with work and you write some works you're like take the time you need But you know they have this kind of caveat of yeah But if it's more than three days like that's not okay You know and then they some some is very on some very unhealthy workplaces some workplaces though I've heard that they're do a very good job and
00:43:41
Speaker
But you know, it's a very understanding manager or boss that are like they're really trying to promote the well-being of the person versus the product But I don't think that's that's not common. I don't think I think that's the the outlier yeah, so grieving well and a society we need to do a better job and That it's okay. And I heard this said it was a TED talk. I forget her name, but she said I
00:44:06
Speaker
You know grief is not it's not moving on from but it's moving on with Like learning to live in the new reality with this kind of loss versus you're not moving on from it. Yeah It's going back to the parent if I quickly briefly I
00:44:23
Speaker
So when you're working with men who have been, you've seen quite parentified, what is some of the work you do with them to kind of recognize some of the unhealthy ways that they've coped, you know, when they were younger and how that might not be serving them now as well as the healthy side and how that serves them now as an adult?
Boundaries in Adult Relationships
00:44:42
Speaker
Yeah. So I think what I've seen is men that have grown up to not know what it's like to be in a healthy relationship or to have boundaries. And so they just let anything happen because you have to just be there and take care of things. And so truly learning. So I have guys that come in and say, well,
00:45:05
Speaker
I don't know that I should have non-negotiables or I don't know that I can have boundaries. I just thought happy wife, happy life. And it's really changing that narrative to happy spouse, happy house. And so you have a voice as well. You have a place to be as well. So let's find a way to be assertive.
00:45:27
Speaker
And then I'll also see on the other end of the spectrum where people are really aggressive and they push their spouse away, but then they still expect their spouse or their significant other to want to be in service to them.
00:45:40
Speaker
when you haven't done anything to make them feel desired or wanted. So I've seen this, you know, I don't think there's a one size fit all. And so I want to be able to speak to both sides of the spectrum that I've seen when I have seen men be parentified from an early age. And I think even the opposite, where maybe I was coddled and I don't know how to do things differently. So.
00:46:04
Speaker
That's what I would see as the main thing, the lack of the healthy relationships or the power dynamic and honestly being used easily is also something that I've seen and not really recognizing that you have a voice and it's okay for you to speak up and say what you like and what you don't like and not just go along with the status quo in order to keep someone else happy. So you matter too.
00:46:33
Speaker
Hmm. I'm guessing that's quite a journey for some of these men as they kind of learn to my guess ask themselves for the first time What what do I like you said? I didn't know I could have boundaries or non-negotiables and I'm guessing for them It might be very foreign when they first start to kind of come up with this and might even not know what they want Have you did you have to come across that where they you asked them and they're like, I don't even yeah It's like they're blank like deer in the headlight like yep
00:46:57
Speaker
Absolutely. That's a real thing. And it's truly helping them understand, well, what do you like? And we started just the
00:47:05
Speaker
bear the baseline, what do you like and what don't you like and taking inventory of that and making that known because you also, you know, there's this age old saying that you teach people how to treat you. And so it may be uncomfortable when you start implementing those boundaries, but it's also necessary because a lot of men suffer in silence and don't know it.
00:47:27
Speaker
Or they suffer in silence and they just think that that's the way it's supposed to be because that's what was done before.
00:47:36
Speaker
And then on the other end, a lot of men are in relationships where their partner is suffering in silence because they're being overly aggressive or they don't know how to be vulnerable or emotionally available to them. So it's definitely this both and wide spectrum of how things manifest in adulthood and how they show up.
00:47:58
Speaker
But I think the number one thing I've seen is the inability to have healthy relationships, to know what our non-negotiables are, to recognize that you can have boundaries, and practicing unhealthy things in order to feel good. And then as you teach them, what have you seen from them when they start to understand the healthy dynamic of having boundaries? What's like one or two things that you see them kind of walk away with? A whole new sense of a voice.
00:48:26
Speaker
Honestly, it's almost like this. It feels like this weight has been lifted once they can see that, ah, wait, I can do this. I can do that. And it really opens up this confidence.
00:48:41
Speaker
And this new narrative of, Oh, okay, I can do this. I'm going to try this on. Um, and I also think that that's really, that's good because that helps for people that, that aren't so deep in codependency. Right. So I think that's completely something different, but it truly is this, this lift of, okay, now I can breathe. And now my partner is receptive to this because if you can do those things, hopefully you're also increasing your communication.
00:49:10
Speaker
And if you're increasing your communication, hopefully we are compromising and problem solving and hearing the other person's concern. So there's this, then it becomes a give and take opposed to just a take or just a give. Yeah. And then it creates that healthy dynamic, like give and take. And when I work with men in this too, and women too, but when I work with men is like, you know, I go back to, Hey, when you were that 10 year old boy, like what did you need and want? Yes.
00:49:39
Speaker
Because there's a phase, there's a time and space where they learn to not state their needs or requests because they couldn't or wasn't allowed. And so they learn to kind of stifle that and push it down and kind of lock that away somewhere. And so in a way, you go back to, hey, remember you had needs too when you were 10, 15, or 5.
00:49:58
Speaker
And what did he need? Because he needed something big time. And to like almost like reignite that and reconnect them with that child self that had to let go for survival, right? They had to do it to survive. Typically why we do this is like, why had to? I had to become this person and there wasn't there and for various reasons.
00:50:17
Speaker
but to help that bring that full circle that, hey, this served a purpose, this being parentified and able to survive whatever your story and context was. And there's such, like you said, such a range and what that might be for people. And now though, it's maybe not serving you as well because now you're having problems and you're in maybe a new relationship where
00:50:36
Speaker
It's just you just serve them and now you're feeling resentful or or vice versa You're the the one kind of being aggressive and so it's helping to connect so they can bring the healing full circle and then like you said walk away with this weight lifted saying okay, this is a more balanced relationship or Voices both can be heard back and forth both of our needs matter both of our dreams matter. We learned to compromise It's a healthy interdependence versus like any some unhealthy codependent stuff. Yeah, I
00:51:03
Speaker
Yeah, it's amazing to see when you see them walk in freedom and like, wow, you know, and then you see their whole world change is pretty cool. Yeah, absolutely. Something else I've seen you can maybe confirm or deny, but sometimes that when they...
00:51:18
Speaker
When they do get healthy though, what's something, I'll ask you this question, what sometimes needs to happen? Or what is something that tends to happen sometimes with certain maybe family members or relationships when these men maybe get healthy? What is sometimes some things they have to do?
00:51:33
Speaker
except that everybody's not going to be okay with it and that you didn't get to where you are overnight. So changing that isn't going to come overnight. So it definitely is going to be taking practice and repeating this thing over and over again. So if I park my car in a yard, the grass is going to be gone.
00:51:54
Speaker
So over the years, we have just flattened that by doing the same thing. And so if I'm trying to grow this grass again, I'm trying to build these new neural pathways, I need to stop doing the same thing. And I'm going to create a new pattern. And so once you start doing that, people think that you're... What do people say? You're switching up on me.
00:52:16
Speaker
I'm growing, I'm developing, and this is what this is gonna look like. So you are gonna face some tension and adversity. Everybody's not gonna be okay with it. Some people may be done with you after that, but that's okay. That's okay, because this is about you and what you need. And if the right people are there, they'll be okay with it. They'll just adjust.
00:52:35
Speaker
So it's truly teaching this skill, preparing you for what to expect from other people, and then also how to stay in that thing and not be swayed by someone else's response to you, by you creating boundaries and now trying to live healthy.
Therapeutic Expectations and Interactions
00:52:52
Speaker
Well said, well said. It's setting that, it's kind of coming full circle here and kind of all things that we've talked about so far is setting the right level of expectations of what to expect. Whether they're starting therapy for the first time, that hey therapy is, yeah there's great moments, there's things where you feel freedom and relief, but there's also very difficult times in the midst of therapy when men come in
00:53:16
Speaker
There's some really hard work here and sometimes it's very uncomfortable and painful because stuff, especially if you've locked stuff away and now you have to kind of, oh, what is in here? And really being clear, it's not just, in fact, I just did a reel about this the other day,
00:53:35
Speaker
It's part of my own internal frustration with seeing the just have these things and you're happy and everything and just it's all about just mindset and which nothing wrong with that mindset. Nothing wrong with thinking positively. I think those are all good things and mindset work is great. I use that work, but I think sometimes people could just narrow it down to just just think happy and everything's fine. No, that's so unrealistic. That's a misconception.
00:53:59
Speaker
But there's people that preach that and that's their thing, whatever it's like. Everybody's a coach now. Yes, everyone's a coach. Everyone's a motivational speaker. And it is what it is. And we probably have a whole other podcast where we've spent. But I think setting the right expectations
00:54:17
Speaker
when it comes to therapy, when it comes to what grief looks like, when it comes to healing from being parentified, really when it comes to anything is setting a correct level of expectations for your clients and for ourselves. I mean, I know there's times I had poor expectations when I was growing up of what I thought it would be and having to readjust like, oh, this is more realistic what it looks like and doing my own therapy and realizing, okay, that
00:54:42
Speaker
It kind of broadens things a bit. And I think when you do have the right set of expectations, it kind of, in a way, you can relax a bit. Even if it's hard, you can kind of rest in, oh, okay, this is normal. I'm putting in quotes that it is normal to have this kind of range.
00:54:58
Speaker
of emotions or this range of ease or difficulty or this range of whatever, that that's part of what it looks like and that's okay. Like you kept saying, it's okay, you know, it's okay. And you said that quite a bit in our conversation and I think that is okay. Like that's such a needed thing for I think a lot of men to hear, especially for the first time that it's okay.
00:55:24
Speaker
because they've been told by society it's not okay. Yeah, like even when you think back of a kid falling or urinating in bed or doing something that was not pleasing to the parent, sometimes we don't hear it's okay. We hear, get up boy, stop crying. Boys don't do that. That's gay. That's girl stuff. And we don't hear these affirming statements of
00:55:50
Speaker
OK, OK, son, tell me why you did that, what happened and being more inquisitive. So as we become adults, sometimes we need people to say it's OK. And we also sometimes need people to say that wasn't OK. That wasn't right for you to do that. Right. So I think that there are times for affirming statements.
00:56:10
Speaker
to affirm me, to lower my anxiety and that is also true and helpful. And then times to also challenge me and say, you're being problematic. That's not okay. Let's do something different because you're being reckless. So I think that safe spaces also should challenge you. So even on my website, I talk about a safe space to be seen, heard and challenged because
00:56:34
Speaker
A lot of people think that therapy is just someone giving you advice, telling you things are going to be, you know, you're okay, you're good. There is a time for that and there's also a time for what are we going to do about that? Because if you continue down this path, you're not aligned to where you say you want to go.
00:56:53
Speaker
Again, balance, right? It's balance of, it's okay, it's not okay, when to challenge, when to listen. It's the balance, it's all about balance. I feel like the theme for me that's popped out in this whole conversation today has been
00:57:08
Speaker
balancing and learning healthy expectations with the balance of kind of the you know that it's okay it's not or you know feeling the sorrow and the grief and the joy right it's this balance of these two different sides that are both needed yes in both healthy and both relevant
00:57:30
Speaker
and to deny one what creates imbalance and creates problems, no matter which one you kind of deny on any topic is going to create problems. So Jess, and final question before we close is, if you could wave your hand like a Jedi or a magic wand, what is one thing that you would want to instantly fix when it comes to men and mental health and therapy?
Vision for Men's Mental Health
00:57:54
Speaker
Do I just have to say one thing? I'll give you two.
00:57:58
Speaker
Okay, great. Thank you. I think that there needs to be this concept of getting rid of tolerance when it comes to either the LGBTQAI plus community or a man that people think is too soft. I think we have to get rid of this.
00:58:18
Speaker
this automatically assuming something about a person and tolerance. Because who wants to be tolerated? People want to be accepted. People want to be seen. And if you can't do that, mind your business. Go elsewhere. So I think that that will be one thing that I'd like to erase because a lot of men live in silence. And then the other thing, allow men to be human.
00:58:40
Speaker
Allow us to feel emotions from a young age to adulthood. Allow us to smile, feel pain, feel angry. Allow us to feel anything that's gonna come up for us and allow us to have a safe space to be seen, heard and challenged. Those are the two things that I'd like to see happen for me.
00:58:59
Speaker
Powerful. I love it, Justin. Those are so powerful. I agree on those things. I always love hearing what people come up with when I ask that question. It's so fun to hear like how people, what's present for them. So I appreciate that. And I really hope those things do occur. Like all these miracle questions, I really do. But Justin, thank you so much for being on and sharing a bit about
00:59:25
Speaker
you know, your heart on some of your experience around grief and kind of what you're seeing and around being predified and you know, really that both these things, I think really one that you experience these things personally, then you're also helping men kind of navigate these things in your professional life. So, you know, what a story to kind of take your own life and use it to this mission of really helping other men and really providing a safe space for them.
00:59:49
Speaker
to not only listen and not only to have empathy and understanding, but also to healthily challenge and push them in a way to be a healthier version of self. So Justin, I thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Um, definitely to have you on again for some other just topical ideas that came up in the midst of this whole conversation. I'm like, Oh, I want so much to explore.
01:00:12
Speaker
So many things came up. I appreciate that. We'll keep note of that. I appreciate this opportunity. It's always a pleasure to talk to you, always. Thanks, Justin. Have a good day. Thanks for joining and listening today. Please leave a comment and review the show. Dads are tough, but not tough enough to do this fatherhood thing alone.