SUMMER ROAD TRIP - Wyoming & Wisconsin

Transcript

Speaker: Well, hello. I'll be honest with you. I don't know if that intro music played or not. Not a club figured it out, but I didn't see any line squiggle. So whatever. Yeah, it kind of is what it is. You know, it's the end of the the the quote unquote summer road trip. Oh, yeah. So fun. This was it is the night. You know, I would have found murders in the states we picked, but being told what to do, even though I disregarded that most times, I get it.

Speaker: Um, I just want to know that I just want everyone to know it was your idea. It was my idea, but thanks for tuning in. This is Truth and Tales with Faith and that other girl because you weren't ready. I wasn't ready. I zoned out. All right. And Lisa, I am the other girl. She is the other girl. But not like that. I'm like, no, I'm not that girl yet.

Speaker: Oh, well, thank God. It's wait. Is it? It's Wednesday. It's Wednesday. I thought it was frickin Thursday. I'm losing days again. It has been a rough week. So let's talk about some people's lives who are worse than ours currently. Yeah. Brighten our day. Well, I mean, you know, we can assume they're worse than ours. So my sweet little assistant that I have now, which I love her.

Speaker: I said something about how I was going to record tonight. She was like, oh, yeah, you and your podcast and rolled her eyes because, you know, she's in her 20s and young. And I was like, hey, I like my podcast. And I was like, the one tonight is brutal. So I gave her a few highlights and she was like, dude, that's that's super cool. And I was like, yeah, see, that's why I do it. Their life looks a lot. My life looks a lot better now, doesn't it? It does. It is sunshines and roses over here, buddy. Yep, yep, yep. So anyways. All right. Rock, paper, scissor it. Oh.

Speaker: No, I'm not. You want to know why? Because it's already been a crapshoot for me for the last two sessions. I keep losing. Then I got stuck with Wyoming. And I don't want to rock, paper, scissors with you anymore. You could have just taken Wisconsin, but you pointed out that I was looking at the wrong state. I was simply pointing out again that you and the alphabet. You typed out a sell spreadsheet that has our names by them. It's not a lot of room for error, yet I continue to just

Speaker: mess it up. Maybe you just dreamed to be me. Fuddle it. I don't know. I was trying to think of a word. I don't remember. Fuddle? I don't know. I'll go with it. Sure. I'll take it. Rock, paper, scissors, shoot. Rock, paper, scissors, shoot. Rock, paper, scissors, shoot. Rock, paper, scissors, shoot. No, no, no, no. My hoodie fell over. That was paper. All right, Bella. That's right. Rock, paper, scissors, shoot.

Speaker: and you're out. So I'm going to kick back and relax with you guys as Lisa takes us in the very uh non -crime -ridden Wyoming because I researched it for a week so I know. Yeah again alphabet.

Speaker: Maybe you can get your first grader to teach you the song. Sorry. All right. So I did in fact get stuck with Wyoming, but I'm not going to lie to you. When I came across this case, I was kind of excited. So bear with me. She is. She has been putting things on Instagram about how she's going to beat me tonight. Story, which we don't raise, but

Speaker: Oh no, no, no, no, no, no. Again, we like to be the best storyteller. I always like that, yeah, I like to be the best. I like to try my best to be the better one. It's like giving gifts. I'm not going to give a gift to the birthday or Christmas. It was a challenge when I posted today. That is just how I feel when I think I have you beat. And then you told your story and I was like, well, crap, that one kind of was great. Like, yeah, it wasn't, it wasn't, I can challenge you now. I think my story is wonderful.

Speaker: But, you know, you make these faces at me, and then I have to listen to you ramble for an hour and a half, which is why I keep mine so short. Mine are always pretty steadily, 20, 30 minutes. Oh, you have to, because I don't shut up. I have a war on silence and charge!

Speaker: I'm winning the battle. Oh And that's why we love you. Hmm. Yeah still don't understand why we have is, you know, oh ps y 'all Anybody out there listening tonight who started following us on insta it has skyrocketed to whopping 50 Hey My mom and your mom actually your mom doesn't Instagram. No, my mom does not do Instagram. It's just my mom and my no, my mom's just one of the listeners. That's it

Speaker: But thank you for following us. Keep going, because every every follow we get, we're seriously considering doing a parthenon. Part not the Patreon. Yes. I knew I'd get there. I just had to say it a couple of times. Everything's OK. We're good. Parthenon. That is that is a Greek thing. Right. Just start. Why? Oh, yeah. Let's move on. I should just stop. All right. So Wyoming.

Speaker: Gerald Yudin and Alice Yudin met in the late 70s, early 80s, and it was an instant love story. They fell so deep in love with each other. And both Alice and Gerald had been married three times each before they met. They fell in love a lot. They did. It was exceptional. They are just kind, loving people.

Speaker: And, um, but you know what, despite the hard times and the three failed marriages, um, not, not three between them, three, it'd be six between them. Uh, nothing's going to stop these two from, from just falling in love and giving love. Can't stop. You can't, you got to give love another chance. And so they did. And five months after the two met, they got married.

Speaker: That is not enough time to know people. So listen, you know what, teach their own. I am not. I'm not going to. I'm not getting on that horse. I'm not going to ride that one. I don't want to. I dated your your brother for several years, married him and still surprised daily by some of the crap that he does. So it doesn't matter. I lived with him for a very long time because, you know, in fact, was my brother, but

Speaker: Yeah, I still don't like him. Yeah, on good days. No kidding. I do like my brother kind of anyway. So, yeah, they they got married and just about two months or so. They they got a phone call from one of Gerald's ex wives named Virginia.

Speaker: And Virginia told him that her and their sons, Gerald's and Virginia's sons, 11 -year -old Richard and 10 -year -old Reagan, were going to move close by so that Gerald could have more time with them. And he was ecstatic. So while the boys were not actually his biologically, he adopted them before they had gotten divorced. So technically, they were his kids.

Speaker: Okay, Gerald loved being a dad, right? By all other accounts of the people that I had watched or whatever, he was actually a really good dad. So in their life at that moment, everything was just, it seemed perfect, okay? He had his kids, he had a new wife, everything literally was just ducks in a row. Happy, happy, life's good.

Speaker: on September 13, 1980, just two months after Gerald's ex, Virginia, and two sons moved to Lander, Wyoming, the two young boys' grandmother walked into the police station and filed a missing persons report. Apparently, the three were all supposed to meet up with Gerald to go bird hunting, and they didn't make it back when the grandmother had anticipated, so she went to file a police report.

Speaker: They like, OK, so we're talking like they were supposed to be back at like six thirty and by seven, seven rolled around. Grandma got worried. Went to the police station to follow Ms. It's with it's within like, you know, within the hour. That's like you got caught in traffic or stuck behind trains. 70s, no cell phones, right. Or 80s, early 80s, not really. So I don't know. No, that wasn't the era of Zach Morris. So that's way more. Yeah.

Speaker: pagers came out. I remember when pagers came out. I know. So do I. It's creepy. So she called Gerald and he basically was like, they they never showed up. And so both of them worried were like, let's go look for him. Right. So they jump into the car and they start driving around everywhere up and down. And again, Wyoming, you're looking at there. It's a lot of land. It's a vast land. Right. Especially where they were at that time, it was like farmland and things of that nature. Yeah.

Speaker: So they drove around. They couldn't find a thing. So after all that had gone down, the police actually had taken notice after a day or so that, you know, this woman, she came in, she filed her police report, but. You know, you can't really call it a a runaway or she ditched everybody and went when she didn't take any clothes. She didn't take any money left all over everything behind. OK, so let's pause. I don't know if I've lost track.

Speaker: are find confused. Go for it. Who is currently missing? Virginia.

Speaker: And the boys. Okay. And Richard. I thought it was just. The ex -wife. I thought it was just the boys. And his two children. No. I didn't know the ex -wife. It was all three of them. There we go. Yes. Okay. Sorry. Back on point. When I said all three of them were supposed to meet up, that's what I meant by that. I thought like three of them, like the two boys and the dad. And the dad. Yeah. So. So that was my bad. Okay. That's my bad. I wasn't paying like highly close attention because I was watching the kids. Right. Because you just never know what they're going to do. Well, and you have a weird situation going on your fence over there that remind me to ask about later.

Speaker: It wasn't there last week. So staring at the fence trying to figure out and yeah, we could probably talk about that after I'm just saying I Just keep because this is a true crime podcast. This is not Faith's corner where we just get to talk about whatever you know what? So, you know

Speaker: Everybody's loving this right now. They're all like oh what happened? Oh, let's talk about Lisa's fence instead We're gonna get our first iTunes review. That's not us and it's gonna be like one start They talk about fences and our borderline and it's not even like the fun kind of fencing right it's not even swordplay it's just You know what swordplay is right?

Speaker: Okay, I'm gonna stop talking now. I'm just, I'm gonna go robotic and read from my notepad.

Speaker: So like I said, the police took notice that the family didn't take anything with them. No money, no clothes, no nothing. That's not how you. So they definitely not like if you're going to like up and leave somebody, you know, at least take some undies with you. Right. Definitely money, five or six bucks. Right. Yeah. So they put a locate out on the vehicle that she was driving and she was actually driving. Virginia was driving her mother's car, which is the grandmother that filed the report. So.

Speaker: Three weeks. Nothing. Nothing. That sucks. OK, so a random passer by.

Speaker: saw what looked to be a half -hidden station wagon at the edge of a deep canyon. No. And so he called the Popo. Popo was like, where is it located? Game directions. Life was good. Who did the wagon belong to? The mom. That is correct. That is right. The missing ex -wife. Right. So they found blood in the back and 22 gauge shells inside the car. No, boy, no.

Speaker: So the blood matched Virginia and the police at that point decided they were going to go ahead and release the information to the media because there's no bodies. There's no trace of the kids. There's there's nothing right. And so they're like, well, maybe just maybe somebody, the kids are out there still. Somebody could put a locate like call in with some kind of information, just delete anything. Yeah.

Speaker: So the police released it to the media. The media put it all out onto, you know, not what we would call social media. I was, I was on the news. And, uh, so the public did, you know, help and assist to look for, um, they, they had a gathering where people went out through the mountains. They were looking for bodies, clues, anything. And they found zilch.

Speaker: They found nothing. Nothing. There was nothing else by the wagon. There was nothing within the areas that they all search. Pretty much. Yeah. So after all the effort that everybody had made, they legitimately found nothing. So years passed by. There were no leads, no evidence. Nothing. And the case went.

Speaker: cold as a glacier. How old were the two boys? Um, they were 11 and 10. Okay. Yeah. So in 1982, Alice and Gerald packed up and decided they were just going to move to Missouri. It's two years later, two years later, we have no sign of anything. We don't know what's going on. And they moved their family. Okay. I mean, unfortunately you can't put your life on hold forever.

Speaker: I mean, basically, yeah, you've got it. I would want out of that place like that reminds you because everything there reminds you. I was sitting at this breakfast table when we got the call. You know what I mean? Like everything's a. Yeah.

Speaker: No, I agree. I mean, it'd be like the kind of like, how do you live in a house where your spouse died? You know what I mean? Like those kind of things. And it doesn't even matter how they died. It could have been just, you know, homicide, a suicide or literally just mother nature. Yeah. But to be able to stay in that house, it takes it takes straight. I would think.

Speaker: Are you just it's the flip side of it is that the last place you're with your loved ones. We don't want to leave it. I see both sides of the grieving process. Right. Yeah. Well, because everybody grieves differently. Yeah, we've all been through it. So now we were in our little way back machine. We are going to jump into our

Speaker: way forward machine. I don't know how that works, but we are going to stop it in the year 2013. Dang, we took a leap at a jump. That's like, what, 20 years? More than that, 33. Uh -huh, yeah. Sorry, I don't math. I don't do math. Nope. So we are now in 2013. Police discovered an old decaying barrel

Speaker: at the bottom, huh? Don't open the barrel. Never somebody open the barrel. Somebody open the barrel. Somebody open the barrel. Although if I found a barrel, I would open it just so I could make the call. And then I'd be like, I did it. Found something.

Speaker: I would, I would seriously question myself. I'd be like, okay, first of all, I would call you anything. Come look with me. Anything could be, I don't want to not sleep for the rest of my life. I don't want to know what I'm about to witness. I also like my sense of smell. It's a 50 50. You don't open the barrel. You wonder for the rest of your life. You open the barrel and you're traumatized by what you see and you don't sleep for the rest of your life. Either way, I'm like one

Speaker: those people too, like you see a duffel bag on the side of the road. There's a body. Yeah. It's a hundred percent immediately. I was watching and they were like in the mountains doing something. And there was like, no, it was these guys that went like fishing for junk in a lake. And so they pull up.

Speaker: And it's like this old bed sheet that's got chains around it and duct tape and like locked and they're trying to get it. And I'm like, bro, you're fixing to unwrap a head. Yeah. Way too chill. Right. And they're like, oh, I wonder what's in it. And I'm like, I'm going to tell you a severed body. Right. Yeah. Put it down. Right.

Speaker: I didn't watch it to the end because it timed out and I didn't want to go to the next one. But literally like sometimes you have to go searching for it. And I just don't. TikTok is amazing in the fact that the videos are like two seconds. And if I'm not amused within the first second, it's gone. And I know it's a body. You're not going to. You can open it and show me a cell phone. There was really a body that was edited. I don't need to see the part. I don't even know. Just like seeing an abandoned bike on the side of the roads into the woods like someone has gone missing. Yeah, we were creepers too much. That is we are creepers.

Speaker: Cool. Sitting here wondering to myself why nobody follows us. I'm sitting here thinking, well, it's probably because they think we are, in fact. Crazy people? Crazy people. So back to your barrel. Back to my barrel. It's got bodies. Barrels. 33 years later. Barrels. All right. So yeah. They pull the barrel out from this abandoned gold mine. OK. Again, Wyoming. There's all kinds of mines, right? Same thing around here.

Speaker: where we live. You've got mines everywhere. Sinkholes. Yep. You know what I'm saying? So inside they find what body human remains. I think it's been a long time. Hold on. It's been a long time. You can't say bodies because it's so decayed at this point. It's just skeleton. Yeah. Skeleton is still part of the body. How many how many skeletons were there? Three. So let's keep going. So they found human remains only

Speaker: This was not the remains of Virginia or her two children. What? Oh, yeah. This was of a man named Ron Holtz. This is not it. This is the weirdest story ever. Yeah, I know. This is why I'm enjoying myself right now. So he, as a matter of fact. Was the ex -husband of none other than the other wife, Alice Yudin, which would be Gerald Yudin's wife. Hmm.

Speaker: freakin' weird. I think we have our first. Maybe a little bit. Ding ding ding. Who did it? Because when X's start, when one X dies, mysteriously fine. When both people have X's that are disappeared and dying, there could be a pattern. There could be something there. Could be an issue. So this man, Ron Holtz,

Speaker: had been married to her, and this did not come out of nowhere, actually. They actually, you're not gonna like this. They actually got a tip on a hotline about this body. The barrel? They didn't know about the, they didn't, let me go. There was a tip on a hotline that said, Alice confessed these murders, this murder to me.

Speaker: that she was drunk one night, and super emotional, and told this man, told the guy that reported it, that Ron was abusing her, so she took her 22 gauge, and shot him - Was it the same shells that were in the car? Shot him in the back of the head. So here's the deal. I - Who called in the tip? I could not - We're gonna get there.

Speaker: We could not. I could not find that. I did find it ironic that both were 22 gauge shotguns at that time, but I couldn't find anything to prove that it was the same gun. It was just kind of one of those thoughts in my head. I really wanted that to be part of the story, but I couldn't find any ballistic evidence whatsoever. It has nothing to do with the murders. Just wait. You're taking forever to get to. Oh, man. I'm not a good waiter.

Speaker: You waited just then. How did it feel? Well, I was waving to your mother. That was a long pause. All right. So he, you know, she was being abused, shot him in the back of the head, put him in the barrel and rolled him down an abandoned mine shaft where she dropped him. How big of a lady is this? Because a dead body is heavy.

Speaker: I mean, once she gets him into the barrel, rolling the barrels, not not not an issue. It's quite circular. But you're rolling it from where? Unless it's down pretty close to the house, you've got to get some. OK, so she rolled it all the way to the mine. No, she had help. Did she? She did. Did she? Her current husband and then they went and killed his ex -wife and children. Shane, is that really how it happened? I don't know. You're taking forever. I know this is kind of fun.

Speaker: Oh, it's so nice being on the other end here. Just holding the information. So this informant's name was Todd Scott. Todd Scott? Todd Scott. Scott, like Scott. Yes, Beth. Like Scott. Scott, you're two different words. Oh, sweet. Oh, cried out loud.

Speaker: This this young man was also recognized as Alice's own son. Oh, and when she made this confession, he was 14 years old and she was a lost dad, was it? Yeah, man. So.

Speaker: September 13 or September 2013, 74 year old Alice Yudin was arrested while Gerald was out on town on a long truck haul because after they moved, that was the job he got. He was trucker. So after a long interrogation, uh, she finally confessed to killing Ron Holt and claimed that it was self -defense.

Speaker: and that he had claimed to Alice, she was gonna kill their daughter. And that was BioDaughter. BioDaughter was, I think, maybe four at the time, because she was still with Alice and Gerald, I think she was eight. So, let me get back where I was.

Speaker: After she had confessed to the murder and they got what they needed She was then asked about Virginia and her kids now deal is is that Alice and Ron? Were married when she killed him. Okay. She hadn't even met Oh dang. Yeah, this was late age late 80s. She was married to him early 70s. Oh

Speaker: Amazing how these crazy psychopaths meet. Meet. Right. That's exactly why I like this story so much. So, anywho, the cops asked her about Virginia and the kids, and she responded that she had no idea. She didn't know what happened to them, and that Gerald never said a thing to her, okay? She was charged with first -degree murder, so the police call up Gerald at that point, and they're like, hey, we've arrested your wife. This is amazing.

Speaker: OK, so I'm going to go verbatim here. Oh, direct quote, direct quote from investigator on oxygen via what was it? Couple killer couples. OK, season 15, episode 10. OK, nice site work. I did my best. So they call it up and they're like, hey, we've arrested your wife for what happened in Wyoming. Oh, no.

Speaker: Please tell me they're recording this. They just set him up. But what they didn't specify was that it was her ex -husband. Which thing happened in Wyoming that they were talking about? They don't have to specify. No, they don't. No, they don't. Maybe you shouldn't do multiple crimes and you wouldn't get caught in that honey trap. Exactly. So what did he say? They thought, well, if we do it this way, maybe he'll come back and try to rescue his wife. Because these two were so...

Speaker: So in love. So in love. And they've been married for over 30 years at this point. So it's been a minute. Yeah, it's been a minute. OK, so please tell me what he said. Montana. Gerald returns and goes to the police station. He tells police that they had they had arrested the wrong person.

Speaker: So under the impression that Alice had been arrested for Virginia and the two boys, Gerald begins to tell the police he can only assume that they had found the bodies or other evidence that brought them back to him. He was even recorded saying, if you found the bodies, it's a miracle. Oh. Uh huh. So he pretty much confessed. Yeah. That he was tired of paying child support.

Speaker: And he told Virginia to meet him. Now, Virginia was the ex that was murdered. Yeah. To meet him so that he could take the boys bird hunting. When they arrived, the boys were excited to see him. They all jump out of the car. People were playing around. Gerald pulls out a 22 turns around and just freaking shoots Virginia in the back of that.

Speaker: They both used a 22 on their ex. And they both shot him in the back of the head. Yeah. So, again, the boys were kind of playing. One of the boys was up behind the wagon or the whatever they call it. And he spun around literally like his words. So I just spun around and I shot him in the head, too. The other boy ran. And Gerald caught up to him and also shot him in the head.

Speaker: All of this all of this faith is recorded on the season and everything that I just dropped and you can listen to this man tell this story and He was so nonchalant About the facts. It was just like he acted like he was just out running errands that day like He adopted them I told you that at the beginning I

Speaker: He yeah, he actually adopted them. Okay, so Yeah, but the way the way he talked was like yeah, I went grocery shopping. I got a tune -up I shot my wife and my two kids and I went home I did some laundry like he literally treated the whole situation like it was just nothing just

Speaker: Okay, so. I do not believe the police got that confession out of. That is brilliant. A super manipulative way. But I mean, that is literally. It wasn't even manipulative. It was just. No, I mean, it was an omission. It was an omission of the truth, correct. It was manipulative. Yeah. That is fantastic. It was sly. That's what I like to do, sly. Okay, it was a very slick way of doing it. You always ask follow up questions. What happened in Wyoming? What happened in Wyoming? Yeah, yeah. Did she have unpaid parking tickets?

Speaker: Yes, that's why she was arrested for first -degree murder. Did she jaywalk? Yeah. Yeah. She was loitering. Well, sir, she littered in the Walmart parking lot. We've got it on tape. We've got it on tape. Oh my gosh, I cannot believe that worked. What a smart, quick thought, though. Yeah, like literally just very coy. Very coy. Hey, man, we've arrested your wife for what happened in Wyoming. You know there was some - I'm gonna need you to come back.

Speaker: There's some guy in that police precinct that was like, hey, let's try this. And, you know, the majority of the cops were like, nobody's stupid enough to fall for that, Bob. Right. And then Bob's like, yeah, who's smart now? Like, oh, I know. It's impressive. That's fantastic. Impressive. I do like for sure. Continue. We should have ended with your story. Oh, I'm sorry. Mine. Yeah. Yours is rough on her. He's what you've been telling me. So I did. So

Speaker: After his confession, he then proceeded to tell police that he poked holes in barrels. They both used barrels. Both used barrels. Is there like a manual out there? Yeah, apparently. Called divorce people. He poked a bunch of holes in the barrels and sunk the barrels in a nearby light.

Speaker: don't remember what the lake was but it had pretty substantial depth yeah okay once the holes are in it it ain't coming back up you ever sunk a beer bottle not coming back up no because I don't litter that would be Lisa so 33 years it was accidental it was accidental anybody comes looking I didn't mean to

Speaker: You know what else thinks really good? What? $200 pair. Oh, please. Those will sink like a damn. Sorry. I'm not bitter. OK. Anyway, back to my story. All right. So the barrel, the barrel, some of the bottom of the lake. And he was then charged with three counts of first degree murder. He pled guilty. See you later, Gerald. He pled guilty and got three life sentences. So life sentence for each.

Speaker: individual. Alice, on the other hand, wanted to take her chances in court, right? Battered wife. Battered wife, baby. They were told us because her child, her fourteen -year -old son, ratted her out, but even he said she was drunk, guilt -ridden, and it was because she was getting beaten. So, the stories line up. So, she has a good chance. If I was on the jury, I would, I'd have a hard time. If you, if you are beating your wife and she strikes back and kills you,

Speaker: Yeah, I'm not going to. I'm not going to do. I don't feel bad. Yeah. No, I don't. Keep your hands to yourself. Although that in kindergarten, although there's a twist because I see your face. Yeah. Before the trial could begin. The police began or started to wonder if Ron was really Alice's first victim. Oh, no, because they both married a lot. Yeah. Well, could her first victim have been her first husband? He was an alcoholic.

Speaker: and he had a lengthy medical record, okay? But according to a statement Alice once made, she was giving him something that would stop his drinking. And his breathing, I'm assuming. It's a good possibility. But according, no, wait, the symptoms after, because they

Speaker: who literally started digging into this man's medical records. OK, so he had a bad medical history. Right. And he was also an alcoholic. Yeah. OK. But according to the symptoms that were described in his medical records, they were more consistent with being poisoned. Like flowers in the attic. More specifically being poisoned by antifreeze. Oh, geez. So the police exhumed his body to test. Were there any even be anything left at this point?

Speaker: Here's the problem. The body had been involved, so it takes. There was no way to know now. There is absolutely no way to know because of the embalming. Yeah. So at trial, the prosecutors and defense, they went back and forth. Well, he was abusing her and this was the 70s. Well, she shot him in his sleep. Blah, blah, blah. Lawyer stuff. Yeah. Right.

Speaker: 2014, the jury deliberated. After 13 hours, the jury acquitted Alice on first degree murder, but charged her with second degree. And she got a life sentence. Five years later, she died in prison at the age of 80. I mean, at that point, you've lived your life. You got away with it. No sooner did she die. Gerald recanted his confession to killing Virginia and blamed it all on her, huh? And the two boys. He basically said that it was Alice.

Speaker: And, you know, he couldn't do anything. But there are too many similarities to discount that. Yeah. But here's the justice system was like, OK, buddy, I'll believe your story when I, you know. You know, crap pigs. It was just so not. No, no. All right. So if I will, we'll do a different one. I believe your story when I believe in gold at the end of the rainbow. How about that? And so they turned him down for a neutral. And from what I can tell, he's still in prison.

Speaker: Excellent. That's Wyoming. That was Wyoming. That's pretty good. The sweetest elderly couple who killed together ever. That's the crazy thing. They didn't kill together, but they kind of did. Yeah. No, it was literally like... The same crime. Yeah. It's weird.

Speaker: The whole thing was freaking weird. They were destined to be together. So I always name my titles when I do my my podcast on my my tablet. Yeah. And so because, you know, the killer neighbor ones and all that, I always kind of give you some kind of headline of what I'm thinking and what lane I'm driving in. So this one was couples who killed together. Get arrested together. It's so dumb. I love it. That was cheesy. That was because everyone's like, oh, yeah.

Speaker: together they they they live together I cannot believe that it was two different crimes two different eras yeah two different like time periods where they met and they line up so close but back in the day you could walk into a Walmart and buy a 22 -day shotgun yeah you still can in some places uh not here that

Speaker: That was a good one. Thank you. I liked it. It leaves. It left me feeling there is so much information I had to leave out just to keep you guessing. Because I left out like the first, the original statement that that son made, her son made. Yeah. He gave them that advice in 1992. They went and had a search park in 1992 and found nothing at that month. So he called the tippet in 1992. Yes.

Speaker: But 13 years later, or not really 13 years later, in 2013, I would say based on like erosions, based on rainfall. That's still like, that blows my mind how many times it's like at least every other case we talk about, they have these huge like intensive searches by feet with dogs, volunteers, grid searches.

Speaker: They've got helicopters airplanes. They can't find it when they're looking and then all of a sudden years later somebody just stumbles upon it. Yeah Like mother nature do I get that it's buried or whatever, but when you've got people searching They're not just you know doing a custom It's not like Frankie looking for the ketchup in the fridge. You can never find them like they're actually looking but I'm sure like to though I

Speaker: They're only gonna dig so far down into that ditch, right? And you're looking, the guy was killed in the 70s, the tip didn't come till the 90s. How much weathering has happened since then? Yeah, that's true, that's true. And so then we have nothing again. We found nothing. And then in 2013, weather patterns change again. And we go back down there. Maybe we dig a little bit deeper than we did before. And here's this barrel with this body of it. And it's like, what just happened? That's insane. Yeah.

Speaker: That's a good story. I like that. I did my best. All right. Well, it still reminds me of Lake Mead a lot, though. I still have no new updates about that. But I'll keep my eyes peeled. All right. Well, all right. On to not Wyoming. Yeah. Here's a bunny. All right. Let's move on to Wisconsin.

Speaker: OK, so so we are coming back with Faith, who is in whatever state she decided to do tonight. Wisconsin, the last state in the United States. I will be in for a while. All right. This is a true crime podcast. Obviously, you're aware of that. You know, if you're listening to typically murder mayhem, I typically don't give trigger warnings. We have an explicit rating. It's a true crime podcast. There's awfulness. This case is brutal. I.

Speaker: This case will make your stomach hurt a little bit, probably. This case is not to be taken lightly. Just a warning, this case is bad. So listen with care. If at any point you don't think you can continue, I completely understand because I was there. So we are going to Baraboo, Wisconsin.

Speaker: All right. Baraboo, Wisconsin. Where's that you might ask? What's important about Baraboo, Wisconsin? Well, it's the headquarters and the founding hometown of the Ringling Brother Circus.

Speaker: No way. I didn't know that. The Ringling Home is like the greatest showman kind of thing. I wish. No, this is bad. The Ringling Home is still located there as well as the Circus World Museum. They've actually had issues in the past in this town's history of elephants getting loose and being found on people's yards munching on grass. So just find them random. It could have been worse. It could have been worse. Just trying to lighten what we're fixing to go into.

Speaker: Story I'm telling you is not anything to do with Happy Family Fun time. I love the circus. OK, I get that people have issues with animal cruelties and all that. The elephants do make me sad. Frickin love the circus. I'm sorry, but I love the lions and tigers doing things. I love all the dogs. I love the whole Shabam. It's great. So there we go. I agree. So all right. Well.

Speaker: Sorry, let's get started. I am taking you slightly way back, but not as far away back as you started for once. We are going to go to July 4th, 1994. And here in circus city, July 4th, I have to imagine is a freaking blast. You've got the you've got the Ringling Brothers circus there. Yeah, you know, there's you know, there's got to be there's got to be a big deal. Below's everybody. Yeah.

Speaker: Not even the fireworks, the contortionist, the gymnastics people, the elephants, the ants. You know it's got to be like, in my mind, it is hype. Now, there's probably like one guy with a sparkler at this point, but in my mind, it is a hype place to be. Yeah, well, there's trapeze artists and stuff like that. So, the whole town's out enjoying festivities, barbecues, fireworks, whole nine, and the Steiner family is one of this.

Speaker: after they're done with their friends and family and their great evening that the Steiner family goes home. Mom and dad say goodnight to their 14 year old son Christopher goes by Chris. They all went to bed. Nothing. The next morning they wake up, they go into Chris's room and he's gone. You always have to do kids man. Vanished.

Speaker: the worst. So, they immediately call the cops and Chris is a typical fourteen -year -old boy. They get in a mischief but he's a good kid. Like, he's not a runaway. He doesn't, he's not like a problem child. Like, he's got a great record. Police immediately come over. Um police arrive at the Steiner's house. They look around and they give probably one of the worst statements a parent can hear. 100 % signs of abduction.

Speaker: very clear that an abduction happened. It's not. He ran off with friends. It was 4th of July. He went to Africa. Clearly the kid was abducted.

Speaker: So the bedroom window outside of Chris's bedroom window, the screen had been sliced open. There were muddy footprints all over the carpet left from deep shoe imprints right outside the windows in the mud, like someone was staring in the windows, sitting there in the rain type of deal. And the muddy footprints that started in the bedroom can be tracked all the way through the house to the patio door, which was unlocked. And the family always locked the door before they went to bed.

Speaker: So the working theory is obviously no brainer. Someone broke into the kids window, walked out the house with Chris. Local authorities immediately get involved. This isn't like a huge town. This is a smaller town. Everyone knows everybody. Everyone gets involved to help with this missing kid, help this family. But after six day of searching, everybody's searching. Everybody's looking, there's nothing. There's no signs. There's no evidence. There's not even a suspect.

Speaker: Like they are completely at zero. Side note, just side note, like your kid getting abducted is horrible. But can you imagine like you put your kid to bed, you lock all your doors, you turn off all your lights and you wake up in your safe place to realize someone has violated that and stolen your child while you were sleeping down the hall. And you didn't hear a thing.

Speaker: makes my stomach hurt it does it does that i i just that whole stay home stay safe that you like to uh spew out there from time to time stay inside stay alive stay inside stay whatever close enough you're sleeping two doors down like down the hall yeah and you hear nothing that sorry that just creeps me out anyway

Speaker: On the sixth day of the search, unfortunately, Chris Steiner's body was found. Um, and unfortunately he obviously was no longer alive. His body was found draped over a partially submerged tree on the river sandbar and autopsy shows no traumatic injuries to his body. Um, but they, the police know there's not a question. There's foul play involved in this.

Speaker: So the cause of death is drowning. But the manner of death is officially listed as undetermined. So everybody's in the know, which were true crime people. Most people are in the know, but I had to Google it.

Speaker: So the cause of death is the underlying medical condition, disease or injury that begins a lethal chain of events, which results in death. The manner of death describes the way in which the death occurred. There are four manners of death, natural accident, suicide and homicide. Right. So while they know he was drowned, that's what caused his death. But he drowned. They don't manner caused it like

Speaker: Like literally, all they know is he drowned. They don't know if it was a homicidal attack, if he just... Exactly. So that's why it's indeterminate. So that's the difference between cause and manner of death. So it's assumed, it's obviously, it's assumed he was killed, but they don't know why, how, who, none of those. And there's no suspects, there's no evidence, there's nothing. And the case just goes unsolved and then eventually turns cold.

Speaker: Yeah. So so we're going to fast forward. All right. Slightly to 1995. Just a year. OK. The Phillips family are new to Baraboo. They moved there with their 13 year old son named dad. And on July 29th, 1995, that is doing what every teenager are. I mean, and my mother do is stay up late watching TV and fall asleep on the couch. And that is our bed for the evening.

Speaker: It happens, especially summer. We don't have nothing to do. We all do that. I still do that. So that is falling asleep on the couch, watching TV in the living room. And he's sleeping peacefully, but he's kind of jostled awake once his dad picks him up to carry him to bed. He's a smaller kid. He's 13. So he's still groggy. He's still basically going back to sleep in his dad's arms. It's a normal occurrence. And then all of a sudden, he's placed on the ground outside.

Speaker: That is not a normal occurrence. No. So he turns around. So I'm going to go with it's not his dad. Ding, ding, ding. Turns around and he sees us a slightly older boy that he's never seen before. And the boy tells that, hey, you need to you need to come run with me right now. Like, let's go. We got it. You got to run. Let's go. Let's go. Let's go. So that takes off with the boy.

Speaker: Now, yes, that's weird. Weird. But that's 13. This kid was in his house. So did he see someone break in? Are his parents in trouble? Did his parents leave and go get a neighbor? They're new here. He doesn't know that many people. All he knows is this kid said run and he's barely awake and he just starts running. Yeah. So that's what I was going to say to you, dude, when you wake up and you're jostled awake in that manner, like nothing makes sense, but everything makes sense. Yeah. Like it's all weird, you know,

Speaker: So they take off running for about a mile, which that's gonna wait. If I am running at night for more than two steps, call 911. Someone is trying to kill me. Like a mile. So they take off running and they continue to run. And at this point, that's no longer groggy. He's wide awake and he knows something's up. Like something's wrong. This is weird. They end up at a house and the older kid brings that inside. The boy introduces himself as Joe.

Speaker: And it's like, hey, you know, I'm friends with Bobby, Timmy, and Joe, which dad knew from school. And he was like, they're all coming over to have a party. They told me to grab you. It was just the quickest way I could think of. We didn't want to get you in trouble. Makes sense to dad. Sure. Sounds good. So come on in the house. So he does. So naive. Uh -huh. So he's like, hey, well, while we're waiting on everybody, why don't you come upstairs to my room, help me get everything set up. Everything's going to be good. Dad's like, yeah, sure.

Speaker: At that point when they get upstairs Joe takes that and throws them on to a very unhygienically sound from the description bed very dirty and This is when Thad's nightmare begins After taught and this is there's no sexual assault in this story, but it is still brutal so Just take a deep breath and let's continue

Speaker: So after 13 -year -old dad, 13 -year -old dad is thrown on the bed by 16, 16, 17 -year -old Joe. Joe grabs hold of one of his legs and starts to twist his ankle, slowly but consistently. And he continues to twist dad's ankle until it snaps and breaks, splintering the bone in the boy's ankle.

Speaker: obviously attempts to fight Joe. He's not, no, no, no, that has to hurt. I stubbed my toe, I need an epidural, there's no way. So Thad attempts to fight Joe off and is able to get himself free, pushes that down, pushes Joe down, takes off limping down the hallway as fast as he can. Thad said at first like the pain didn't even really,

Speaker: So Thad fights Joe off, pushes him down, and he's limping his way down the stairs. And Thad said while there was pain, he was mostly in shock at this point. Adrenaline, buddy. As he ran down the stairs, he said it's not the pain that he remembered, but the friction of his bones rubbing together in his ankle is what made his flight to the kitchen the worst. He could feel his bones grinding because they were broken.

Speaker: And so as he makes it into the kitchen, Joe catches up to him. Joe grabs Thad, throws him onto the couch, and is furious that Thad had the audacity to fight for his life. He takes Thad's leg, so he's broken the one leg, he takes the other leg, and he starts pushing it up towards Thad's head. And he continues to push until he breaks Thad's thigh bone, his femur, snaps it.

Speaker: I'm just just for informational purposes. That's like the worst bone ever. And it's the hardest one in your body to break it. The femur is one of the strongest bones in your body. And it is estimated from science reference dot com that it takes 160 pounds of pressures to cause fractures to start.

Speaker: I'm really kind of wondering at this point how big this boy was. I've got pictures of everyone. They'll be posted. But my thing is, is that is some, like you were applying firm and consistent pressure enough to break someone's femur. Like how do you do that? Cause it's not like he sat there quietly. No. So this 17 year old kid, cause remember Joe was only 16, 17 years old. Um,

Speaker: had the determination to hurt this this little boy like that blows my he's yeah I have no work it's super super sadistic yeah so um how twisted does your mind have to be to cause that amount of amount of pain to

Speaker: A child. Not even that, but like you're the reaction. It's not like it's just like, oh, I'm going to apply pressure and then boom, it breaks. No, like he's got to be writhing in pain the entire time and you don't. Yeah. But the deal is, and he didn't even do it like he didn't take a hammer and fascist, fascist. This was all physical. He didn't, you know, run it over the car. Like there are several ways he could have broken his bones. He manually did it with his hands. Yeah. That's.

Speaker: That's what I'm saying. Like, I don't understand how you can physically watch a child being tormented and continue. So Joe continues to torture Thad into the night. And then when I guess he's decided that just beats the kid mercilessly. I see your face. Beats the ever -living snot out of this poor kid. And then starts to dress Thad balloons. He takes some socks, clean socks, ace bandages, and makes casts.

Speaker: like a makeshift cast for the femur and the ankle that he's broken. And then Joe leaves that in the bed and leaves the house. Just say a lobby.

Speaker: So at this point, Thad is alone, and I can't imagine the amount of pain he's in, and every time I think of it, sorry, I don't remember the comedian said it, but I just think that Thad's screaming, Sayay! Sayay! Yes. From that one? Yes. But, um, he decides not today. Thad is, uh -uh, Thad's not putting up with this. So he drags himself.

Speaker: because he has a broken ankle on one foot and a broken femur on the other literally with his hands drags himself to the stairs down the stairs into the kitchen. However, once he gets to the kitchen, he finally makes it there. He hears the front door open and he hears Joe walking with a girl. Oh, come on. So Thad listens to them talk for a minute and he hears the girl leave. And that's about the point Joe walks in and finds Thad laying in the kitchen.

Speaker: Joe again is furious and he drags that back upstairs where he just brutalizes him.

Speaker: He screams at him. He threatens to kill him and just rages on that as he beats the crap out of them, who can do nothing to defend himself at this point. Really? Yeah. When Joe's finally done, he again, tends to Thad's wounds and Joe goes to bed, leaving Thad there, which I'm sure Thad prayed all night that this was just some kind of psychotic break. And in the morning, Joe'd be normal and be like, Oh, my bad, bro. Let's go. Like, but that unfortunately was not the case.

Speaker: So the next morning, Joe wakes up and goes to see that, checks his leg and ankle to make sure they're healing properly. And as he checks his femur, you know, looks like it's healing, checks his ankle, looks good. Then he starts to twist again. And he makes sure to re -break every bone that was starting to set. All the bones.

Speaker: Joe continues to break every bone he can in Thad's feet and ankles. And this is the routine Chad lived through. Where he's beaten and his bones are manually slowly methodically broken to be set, put in a makeshift cast, enough time to heal and then broken again. Like just continual, continual.

Speaker: So as we've seen, though, that is no one's victim. You're super morbid. Yeah, the story is just awful. So that's not that's not going to take this laying down, if you will.

Speaker: So he fights back and he continues to fight back against Joe until Joe finally takes a pillow, throws the pillow at that space and says, if you don't keep quiet, I'm going to break your back and your neck next. This is a 16 to 17 year old kid talking to a 13 year old boy saying, if you don't be quiet while I continue to break your bones, I'm going to do your back and your neck.

Speaker: Yeah. And after all the kids already been there, pretty, pretty severe threat. Pretty serious. I believe him. So, um, dad buries his face in the pillow and does not make a sound at this point as Joe continues to break his leg bones. He stops fighting back and he just lays there and fights the pillow and tries not to make a sound. And during all these times, like all this, like it was a routine, Joe come in, break set,

Speaker: And Joe would take all these breaks though. Like during the time where he's letting the bones kind of reset, he'd pretend like they were friends. Like he'd bring him, he'd sit there and talk about food. Let's watch the movies. Let's hang out like they're buddies. And Joe told that all about his family, his car, which he was super apparently proud of, explained about why he lived with his brother instead of his parents.

Speaker: that hated the fact he lived with his brother in this filthy house, about his girlfriend, just talked to him about his life. However, dad, as a 13 -year -old fricking just ace of a person, like the mental acuity on this kid is ridiculous, decides he's going to use this time, these breaks, to humanize himself and try to befriend Joe, just to stop the abuse. So during these quote unquote down times, he'd talk to Joe and be like, hey,

Speaker: Can you just let me go? We can be friends. I'll tell people I fell down the stairs. Joe's like, nobody's gonna believe that at this point, bro. And Thad's like, you know, I just don't understand. Why are you doing this? Have you done this before? What's going on? I don't understand. So Joe tells Thad about a kid named Chris Steiner that he captured and killed about a year ago.

Speaker: Remember him at the beginning of the story? Yep. And also there was this other boy before that that he did the same thing to. So Thad is listening to this. And I think like Thad knows this whole time he's in a bad spot. Like he's in trouble. But as Joe's sitting there talking about these two other boys that he's done this to and then killed, I think at that point you realize like you're in trouble trouble. Like you're not making it out of this alive trouble. So

Speaker: Um that you know, he doesn't understand why joe's doing this and joe explains Uh just calmly like talking about the weather He does it because he really likes the sound of bones breaking, you know Just it's a nice sound he enjoys the sound So that's his reason what oh, yeah, what um, and this is in the environment. Oh, yeah

Speaker: Yeah, so this is how Thad lived. The torment afflicted upon Thad's body was... To say it was severe doesn't even do justice what this kid lived through. Yeah. And it would occur for hours at a time.

Speaker: Joe would inflict trauma on Thad as a way to manage his daily frustrations. For example, one time Joe went to start his car in the morning and it wouldn't start. So he came up yelling about it to Thad as he twisted his legs until both the boys knees broke and then started stomping on his chest, like jumping on Thad's chest just because his car wouldn't start. With the crap face. Yeah. On top of the physical torture, because, you know, that's not enough. He'd play these little mind games with that.

Speaker: Because Thad continually begged, let me call my parents. Let me tell my parents I'm not alive. I'm their only kid. They, you know, they just, please let me tell them I'm, I'm alive. I won't tell them anything else. And Joe was like, okay, that may, you can call your parents here and gave him the phone and dad's ecstatic and goes in. No Daltone, not a working phone. So just enough hope to crush him. Right. So one day, um, Thad's laying there. Cause what else can he do? He can't walk.

Speaker: Um, he hears the phone ringing from the kitchen and he hears Joe talking to his girlfriend, making plans for a date that night, which is when dad realizes if he got it, if he got the chance, he had to find a way to get down to that kitchen and call for help. That's his, that's his only way. Yeah. So Joe went and got ready first date as one does. And before he left, um, beat dad horrifically at this point, he twisted

Speaker: Thad's legs that were to make sure they were rebroken so he couldn't walk and then stomped and jumped on Thad's feet and ankles with his whole body and then stomped his chest just to make sure he couldn't get out of bed. So by the time Joe left for his date, Thad was in bad shape. His legs had been twisted so badly this time that his kneecaps were located on the back of his legs.

Speaker: His ankles had been broken so many times that the tendons and ligaments had been severed and his foot and ankle were connected to his leg by the exterior skin only. There was nothing connected it like you could you could pinch your fingers to say. Abused. How do you come up with this? And at all this point, there's no ice packs. There's no not even ibuprofen like just you're living it as a 13 year old.

Speaker: So Joe leaves for his day and Thad listens from his prison room. And as they leave, he sits there for a minute. It's quiet. Everything's clear. Thad went into immediate action. This 13 year old little, I mean, bad day. Yeah. Because all props to Thad. I mean, I want to be back when I grow up. Clearly. He is my spirit animal. He throws himself from the bed.

Speaker: then takes his hands and starts to drag himself to the stairs because his legs aren't useful. Yeah. And then he gets to the stairs and he's got a decision to make at this point. He has no use of his legs, so he's looking down the stairs and he knows he's got two options. Number one, he can stay up here where he is and take his chances, probably into murder. Number two, he can throw his body down the stairs, hoping he doesn't break his neck on the way.

Speaker: So what does our little fad do? Throws himself down the stairs. And I can't imagine. His legs are, I mean, literally just. Just I can't even think of a word strong enough to drive. I mean, completely and utterly mangled. And every step he bounces down, his legs are slapping into walls, slapping the steps. The pain. Oh, the pain, the pain.

Speaker: I just literally don't think I could, like, you know how bad that's got to hurt. I don't know if I physically could make myself do that to myself. I mean, honestly, I feel like at this point, it's life or death.

Speaker: It is. But. And so it's like it's either I'm already I'm already. Well, yeah, but you don't know because your adrenaline is not pumping the way that kids adrenaline. It's like literally I'm going to fight my way through this by any any means necessary whatsoever. No matter what happens to me, I can either fight or just die. And that he went. Yeah, there was no flight in his instinct. It was just fight or fight. There was no option for him. He belonged himself down the stairs.

Speaker: Upon hitting the bottom of stairs, he passed out due to the amount of pain he's in. His body couldn't handle his mind and never passed out. So he wakes up and he finds himself at the base of the stairs and uses his hand to start dragging himself along the floor trying to make it to the kitchen.

Speaker: So he's literally dragging himself on the floor trying to get to the kitchen. And we don't know like the time elapsed when he passed out. No, we don't. We don't know how long he's been passed out. So the problem is his body's been so abused and he's in so much pain, he continues to pass out. He drags himself until his body shuts down and he passes out, wakes up, continues to drag himself until his body shuts down and he passes out over and over.

Speaker: until he finally makes it to the living room. In the living room, he takes a breath and he's about to start walking again and he hears just the worst sound. Front door opens and shuts. Dad pulls himself as quickly as he can behind a couch to hide himself as he hears Joe and his girlfriend enter the house right there in the same room he's hiding.

Speaker: So this leaves him with yet again another decision and two options to make. Number one, he can call out for help hoping this girl calls 911. But on the flip side, she's dating this psychopath. So what if she joins in? What if she sees nothing wrong with it and he's in even more trouble than he was before?

Speaker: So. Excuse me. You're from. He takes the other option and he stays quiet and just tries to stay hidden, hoping Joe leaves with the girl. He has no idea what to do. And honestly, he probably just freezes like scared to death. I would be he's 13 and he tries to like in his mind. I've already made it this far. Like if he sees me, he could possibly kill her and me like just because she was a witness. Yeah.

Speaker: So the next, eventually the girlfriend leaves and Joe finds Dad behind the couch and brutalizes the boy. Each hour, at least once an hour, he would go back to Dad and continue and break the bones more. Dress them, let him sit for an hour, come back, break the bones, set them, wrap them, leave an hour later, all night.

Speaker: hour after hour. By the next morning, Thad's in rough shape. From the continual breaking of the bones, blood vessels has ruptured in Thad's legs. He's gotten tense internal bleeding. There's overwhelming trauma to Thad's entire body. And on top of that, Joe has not given Thad anything to eat or drink the whole time he's been torturing it. So he's severely dehydrated. His body's got nothing.

Speaker: the internal bleeding so bad that you could see the blood pooling in his upper thighs just by looking at his legs, like just gigantic bruising. It finally came to the point that while Joe was beating him, Dad would randomly say things to get the beatings to stop like, I think I just heard your girlfriend outside. Is your girlfriend supposed to come? And Joe would stop and go look out the window and see that nobody was there. Come back and beat Dad worse.

Speaker: Dad said that he knew that would happen, but in the moment, he just needed 10 seconds of the pain stopping. Like he just needed 10 seconds without his bones being broken. And he knew it'd be worse, but he had to have those 10 seconds to breathe. He couldn't breathe. So that night, Joe goes on another date with his girlfriend.

Speaker: Full Joe wants shame on you. Full Joe twice shame on him. He's learned his lesson and he's not gonna make the same mistake. So he locks that in a closet. So that is locked in a closet in more pain than I can imagine. He's broken. It's July so you know it is hotter than Hades.

Speaker: So and on top of just the sheer heat of being locked in this tiny little closet in July, he's had nothing to eat or drink. His body's shutting down. He's severely dehydrated. Yeah. So you know what? It's bad, though. So none of that's going to stop. And he starts looking around in this closet and he finally spots an electric guitar that's been stored in this closet.

Speaker: So he takes the electric guitar and he starts bashing the door to this closet. Every ounce of strength his little body has and finally breaks the door down. No way. So that starts to pull himself out of the closet, out of the room and he's faced with a very similar, familiar issue because he's faced this one again, back at the top of the stairs. Not a second hesitation. He does the only thing he can do and he throws his body down the stairs again.

Speaker: passes out from the pain, wakes up, and drags his broken body to the kitchen, passing out the whole time, waking up, dragging, dragging, passed out, wake up, drag, drag, pass out, all the way, till the kid, yeah, this kid's got no stop, like, no, I usually don't swear, this kid doesn't have an ounce of bitch in him. No, there is no bitch in that kid. I mean, this kid, geez, finally makes it to his goal,

Speaker: and he's in the kitchen and he sees the phone up on the wall. Lady Luck has shined down upon him because it's got one of those huge long phone cords back in the day, you know? Oh, heck yeah. So you can wander around the kitchen. There's like 30 feet of cord attached. So he can't stand up, but he can loop his fingers on the bottom of that cord and pull the phone down to him. Heck yes. More luck. The numbers are on the phone handle.

Speaker: Oh, heck yeah. So he's now holding a live phone with a dial tone with the number. You tell me that Joe walks through the door right now. I'm going to kill you. Like I will literally we will stop this podcast and I'm going to go to bed. So does not he immediately calls 911. And he explains I've been kidnapped. I've been held. I've been. My bones have been this. This kid is breaking my bones, my leg bones, everything.

Speaker: But see, here's the thing. He has no idea where he is. It's July, 1995. I don't know if you remember what's popular then, but I do. And it's ring, ring, ring. Hello. Is your fridge running? Yeah. Maybe you should go catch it. Prank calls are the height of the day. It is summer and this is obviously a young kid. And the 911 operator knows. Yeah. Sure, buddy.

Speaker: Who can listen? Who can listen to what this kid went through and thought, yeah, that's your life. That's happening in our small little, you know, Mayberry town. Absolutely not. This is 100 percent a prank call. And the sheriff's office agrees. Oh, my God. Luckily, they send a police officer just to scare the life out of the kid. The prank call. That's not a joking manner. You went what you brought it. You took the prank too far. Yeah.

Speaker: This is you don't you don't joke about that. That's not funny, right? That's what that be to do. They go to the house because they can trace the call. Doesn't matter that he didn't know where he was. They traced it. They know where he's at. Yeah. They're going to go scare the ever living snot out of this kid. Yeah. Not knowing, hey, this kid's left you. Hell be this kid that has got like a will of iron and you're not scared.

Speaker: So they walk in and they find dad on the ground exactly having lived through what he described on the phone to the operator. And they obviously immediately take him to the hospital. There's nothing else to do there. Right. As dad is waiting.

Speaker: um for doctors to see him surgery whatever is going to have to happen um he wants the police to know everything he wants so he tells him everything that he lived through not only that he says hey do you know a name do you know a kid by the name of chris steiner and he says by the look in the cop's eyes he knows oh and he said that guy said he did what he did to me to chris steiner and killed him

Speaker: And there was also another little boy and Thad tried and tried no matter how hard he tried. He could not remember the other little boy's name. So at the end of the day, Thad had been held captive and tortured for 43 hours straight of constant abuse. For the totality of his injuries, the doctors who first worked on Thad said he was just hours away from death. He would not have lived much longer.

Speaker: The internal bleeding alone, but also the multiple injuries. They said it's a miracle that his legs were even attached to his body at that point. His feet should not have been attached. Wow. The report says that his legs were swollen to the diameter of basketballs. This was not a big kid.

Speaker: Um, his feet and ankles dangled barely attached there by the skin that was left after being stretched and twisted. Unimaginable fractures to basically every portion of his legs and multiple other bones. They said his legs were completely destroyed and it would take multiple surgeries. Yeah, for multiple years. Yeah, you're looking screws and plates and all kinds of everything, everything. And to this day, dad walks with a prominent limp.

Speaker: The police obviously go arrest Joe Clark, and they also want information on Chris Steiner case at the same time. Because if you remember, Chris Steiner was filmed, and an autopsy was done, and there was no trauma to his body. He drowned. So how do you go from drowning one kid to what you just did? So the thing is, in autopsies, they don't x -ray your entire body.

Speaker: Oh, the skull and the x -rayed his hands to see if he had defensive wounds on his hands. Our skull fractures, that kind of thing. But maybe even the torso, no long bones were were were x -rayed. And those are the bones. Joe enjoyed hearing breaking. So they had no choice but this point to go to Chris Steiner's family and say, we need to exhume your child's thought.

Speaker: But if I'm that parent, why are you exhuming it? Because you think you have somebody, I'll get a show. Absolutely. I'll help you. I'll rent the digger. Let's go. So while they're doing that, they also they arrest Joe Clark and they they go through his house and they find a notebook in his room. Which had a nice little diagram or whatever you want to call it. Nice little bullet journal types. There's three headings on this journal, three columns.

Speaker: One says, get now. The next says, can wait. And the third says, leg thing. And with each list, there was a, each category had a list of young boys that lived locally in the area. And those were, he had planned 26 different boys already for get now, can wait, and the leg thing.

Speaker: We know what the leg thing is. Yeah. So he's, this isn't, this wasn't like a, this wasn't just a spur of the moment. He stalked these boys. He planned to take these boys. He want, this wasn't going to stop. And you said he lived with his brother. Yes. Where was the brother? I don't know. Obviously got abandoned. Clearly.

Speaker: So Chris Steiner's body was exhumed at this point. And after x -rays, it's confirmed that all long bones had been broken and had the same exact injuries as that. You could line up the x -rays and they match. Wow. So it's, it's identical injuries, which means Chris. Chris last few hours of his life, this little boy we talked about the beginning is what I just described, dad lived through.

Speaker: He just didn't get away So on September 7th 1995 Joe is charged with eight different crimes against his actions for Thad From the court it the court stated part of the court I just well he wasn't an adult at this point either there was a child he's 16 17

Speaker: So they said that he threatened and suffocated him, locking him in a closet without food or drink for days until he was able to escape himself. The evidence against Joe Clark is huge. Number one, we've got a living victim. Yeah. A living victim that you told you did this to a dead a dead victim. Right. So we got those two things. We have the police found the boy. Yeah. Your house. Yeah.

Speaker: And then we found a book where you put the leg thing with a list of what potential victims. Why would you just guilty sentence me? There's no way, right? Yeah, but it's art. So for all the different counts, Joe response was either no contest or not guilty by reason of mental defect or insanity. His charges were one count of attempted first degree intentional homicide.

Speaker: one count intentional causing great bodily injury to a child, one count mayhem, one count causing mental harm to a child, one count of child enticement. The jury finds that after all the courts gone through, he tried to say that he didn't cause mayhem and that he didn't all this other, because mayhem is when you intentionally injure another person and he was like, well, I didn't do that. Yeah. Yeah, you did. Yeah. Um, at one point he literally tries to say he didn't maim

Speaker: And he goes, well, they fixed him. Wow. So you still named him. So, um, the jury finds that Clark is actually Joe Clark is a hundred percent mentally

Speaker: There he's not insane. He's not mentally defective. Okay. He is responsible for his action and he is guilty. The capital G U I L T Y. Um, the court sentences him to a hundred years of imprisonment for what he did to that. Okay. A hundred years. October, um, 1997, Joe Clark is taken to civil court.

Speaker: And he is given the, um, he is ordered to pay damages to that in the amount of $21 million. Now we both know not going to happen. Not going to happen. Yeah. But the, um, most honorable judge.

Speaker: Virginia Woolf has high esteem for her. She's not like old Sparky there and Sunny J. Oh, yeah. Yes. Oh, my God. She's the one that said 21 million. And her statement was given the sensational nature of this case, it is possible that in the future, at some point, the individual could benefit from his crime. And at that point, he will pay sad what that is.

Speaker: So you ever make a dollar, bro? You're giving it to this kid. You ain't ever seen it. You sell it to Lifetime to make a movie, you write a book, whatever money is made off this, it goes to Thad. You owe him 21 million dollars. Kudos, love you.

Speaker: Well, I believe you will watch the shift. She's she's saying that no matter what you do, it will that will always benefit. You're always going to be broken in jail, but that on the other hand. Yeah. Anything you ever. Yeah. So I got Lee Bum. I mean, think about the freaking medical bills that this kid had. Oh, and they had it broken out. Like how much versus medical versus compensatory versus all that. But some 21 million. I feel like at that point,

Speaker: Like the government should just take over and be like, parents, you owe nothing. Yes. You owe nothing. Agreed. I don't think the parents should have had to pay. This was not your fault. It was years of surgery. Bro. And physical therapy. And I guarantee shrinks.

Speaker: Yeah, if we can hand out money the way we do in the government like just hey, here's 20 mil here's 20 mil Here's 20 mil right like for a victim like that you pay you pay it pay it Be done or the hospital should just be like pro bono my friend charge You have a free bill because you fought like hell. Yeah, that's your pay like you Are like you want to work named after you? Yes. Yes because

Speaker: 13. And he saved himself. Like the common phrase at this point should be like, you need to be strong like that. Let's go. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Like any football team. You know, anybody. Like, yeah, exactly. Don't, you know. Oh, gosh. Be a that. Be a that. So Joe obviously starts appeals immediately. Again, he said he didn't name him because they fixed him.

Speaker: It wasn't mayhem, all this crap. He said he didn't try to kill him. Again, you made him smother himself with a pillow. You didn't feed her. Seriously? Yeah, it's almost like there aren't words at this point. Like you're just like you did anything humanly possible to make this kid miserable. No one in society wants to breathe the same air as you. Even the inmates don't want you there. Yeah. Yeah. Let's put you in a well and forget you're there. Yeah. So while he's wanting to all these appeals,

Speaker: Yeah. He has to stay in trial against the state for the murder of Chris Steiner immediately. Yep. During that whole case, Joe Clark pled not guilty, was not guilty. Again, there's a living victim right here that's testifying. You told him that while you did the same things, their x -rays could be the same. Yeah. Like, what do you mean not guilty? Like, at least try for something else.

Speaker: So also, to further screw him, there was a damning testimony and this is reading straight from Murderpedia. How much more do you need? Really? Yeah. What do you need? Right. There was a damning testimony by a former fellow juvenile detention inmate of Clark who said Clark admitted to her that he had killed a boy and placed his body over a tree.

Speaker: All said it was obvious Clark had murdered Steiner and on November 7th, 1997 found him guilty of intentional homicide and sentenced him to life in prison plus 50 years. So you get life, but just in case you get another 50. So Clark maintained the whole time that he was innocent. So

Speaker: Here's the deal. For his sentence, he had a life which is 100 years for Chris Steiner plus an extra 50. No, life plus 50 was 110 years for the Chris Steiner murder. He has to serve 70 years of that 110 sentence for Chris Steiner's death before he's eligible for parole. That doesn't include the consecutive sentence of another 100 years for what he did to Thad Phillips.

Speaker: My boy has 210 years of consecutive prison sentencing, and you can't even go for parole until 70 years. So at that point, you're 86, 87. Your life is done. Thank you. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200.

Speaker: Yeah. So sad. He's done. He's he's been on television. He did an interview on like maiming in suburbia or something like that. I have to look that up. He is a he's the cutest little kid. I'm not kid. He's an adult now. I mean.

Speaker: Who lives through that? What 13 year old is? What's that movie where the psycho chick like holds the guy hostage, tapes his legs to the bed and breaks it with sledgehammers? Do you know what I'm talking about? I do not know what you're talking about. Uh, I want to go ask my mom. It's old. Anyways, it was a good movie, but I'm sitting here thinking to myself.

Speaker: By the rights from sad from his life story and let him get the benefit now his benefit is He's alive. He might walk with a limp, but he walks free why Joe Clark rots in prison still trying to tell But he's you know, you know, he's still one of those guys that screams when he stubs his toe on the side of the bed Yeah

Speaker: like he needs to feel what fad felt oh that's just my personal opinion you can like it you could dislike it but still uh hundo like that's just come on man imagine those fads and if anybody knows the name of that freaking movie could you please just send it somewhere whether it's the email instagram whatever yeah i don't remember what it's called can you imagine if that has kids and they're like i hurt myself oh you want to hear pain

Speaker: Like, if that was my dad, I would never ever be able to be like, oh, I stubbed my toe. No, no. That's awesome. How do you I mean, and he lived.

Speaker: He's alive. He can do all the surgeries. He walks of his own accord. That's the weird part. Like, okay, it's not weird, but like, that's the great part. Yeah. Is the fact that he still had full functionality of all of his... I mean, it took a lot of... Everything. Took a lot of surgeries, a lot of rehab. But at one point in the court, like, they tried to say that... Well, I can imagine him and rehab. They're like, all right, we need you to try to stand.

Speaker: We need you to just be. I feel myself downstairs. Exactly. You think I can't. I feel myself downstairs and passed out. I'm going to stand. I have pain tolerance. You've never even heard of that. I'm going to stand up. I'm going to pass out. I'm going to stand up again. OK. You got nothing. And I like when I first heard this story, I heard about this and it's not going to be quoted right because they couldn't find it. But like in the court, when they when they when they when they tried Joe Clark for Thad's

Speaker: just horrific. Yeah. Basically, he tried to say that the one count of attempted first degree murder or intentional homicide, he's like, well, I didn't intend to kill him. And he was like, you starved him. You broke his bones. You smothered him. He's stopped on his chest and this 13 year old.

Speaker: Broke out of the cat of the closet you in prison to men and got his own rescue if not for himself Saving himself if your fads dad in court like number one you're horrified, but number two I'd be like that's my boy, right? That's my son guys. No participation trophy for him. Nobody first like

Speaker: I mean, yeah, it is horror and I do not make light of what dad went through because oh Hell no, but it's not that it's just the simple fact that any human be anybody Yeah, who could survive what you went through? Okay, and then just stand up to everybody and be like, okay, first of all, not only am I gonna testify against this guy? I'm going to every every trial. Yeah, I'm gonna be every trial I'm gonna go through countless surgeries. Okay, and I'm gonna fight me up to bite me him in prison be like

Speaker: Who's locked up now? Yeah Yeah, exactly. I cannot express to you like it's a horrific surgery. It made my stomach hurt thinking about what this this child Oh, I'm sure because I mean you can only imagine though seriously like oh he set his bones and I put that in quotes For faith, but like this is this is a 16 17 year old kid. What the hell does that mean to him? Yeah, right So then the doctor comes out and this bones going this way this one's going this way and we're connected like they're powder. Yeah

Speaker: And the kids saved himself. How many times he wasn't quitting like there was no quitting him. Like in literally like you can only imagine that the things going through his mind when Joe dragged him back up the stairs is he's just sitting there thinking.

Speaker: Well, there's tomorrow. Like, you know what I mean? He's going to go again. Let's go. Let's go. Wow, man. Wow. As a parent, knowing what your kid lived through had to be horrified. But how do you not brag about my boy bad? Right. Like he used electric guitar, beat his way out, threw himself downstairs for a third time. Yeah. Yeah. And got himself out, like saved his self.

Speaker: himself. You read at 13. That's I mean, damn good story. Why do you always win? Is a good story. I mean, it was like listening because I had to listen to it. I listened to bad talk about it. I listened to I read. There's all this stuff I've read. I'm going to look some of this up. Definitely. It's horrific, but.

Speaker: And the whole story, like it literally like I was trying to tell your brother about it this morning to get some of my medical facts straight. And he's like, I don't you're ruining my day. Stop telling me what this kid lived through. Yeah. But he lived. Yeah. And he's still alive today. Yeah. Like.

Speaker: I don't I want to shake his hand. Yeah, he and Lisa McVeigh. Just Lisa McVeigh. We're going to bring it back to them. Oh, heck yeah. So dude, I know. I mean, both of them were kids lived through horrific use their brains to try to outsmart their captives and fought like hell. Yeah. The fact that he saved himself.

Speaker: I just can't. And the deal is, is the first time you drag yourself down the stairs, you get busted. You get beat worse. Yeah. Where he broke his femur after the first time. Did it again. Yeah. Got beat even worse and said, well, he's gone. Let's what more is he going to do? Yeah.

Speaker: Like, I mean, okay. I've heard people say, all my life, pain has no memory, right? So in this kid's mind, he's probably thinking, well, I can't be worse than breaking my femur, right? And I've lived through that. So I'm just, I'm going to go. I'm going to go. Right.

Speaker: There you go, bro. I mean he just asked a bro a lot like five times in two seconds It's almost like you don't have words like there are no words for that dude I mean like the courage and the balls I literally take a bite in the coffee. I just want to sit and I want to say Like I mean what what do you do next like I'm gonna I'm gonna hashtag a new phrase right now I

Speaker: Right now. And I'm claiming it for Twisted Tales. You can go ahead. All right. It's going to be today. We're not bitches with that. Yeah. Next time Bella like complains, I'm like, why don't you be like that? Yeah. Yeah. We're not a bitch with that. All right. No. But trust me, one day you will. And I will laugh at you for crying right now because. Oh, like there's no way I could I would I would be dead because I would.

Speaker: I mean, bad Phillips, ladies and gentlemen, bad Phillips. Absa freakin lately. That's my story. That's my that was good. I liked it. It ended better than I thought, because like in the moment of researching this, honestly, I couldn't see like the he lived. It's awesome. He's a hard a like in that. It's like it's a crapshoot, right? It's a crapshoot because the first victim died.

Speaker: Like I'm not saying that we're gonna discount everything that kid went through that has nothing to do with this this is literally Human strength at its finest and you know what we will never ever know what Steiner fought for

Speaker: No, you won't know what we will never ever know. He could have been busted every single freakin' time. He threw himself downstairs. And just because he didn't fight back doesn't mean it wasn't a physical, like he might not have physically fought back, but it could have been a mental game. Well, and I was just gonna say to you, like, you don't know what your body is physically capable of. No, and every threat is to have your back and neck broken. If I play along,

Speaker: Maybe he'll let me go maybe I can get out maybe for the love of God This is a 16 year 15 16 year old kid with Chris Steiner So maybe his parents will come home and help me right like in my mind if I've got a child doing this to me I'm thinking eventually bro your parents are gonna come home and I'm gonna scream the house down and they're gonna get me help like yeah logically and again, like I said, we have no idea what that kid ever would have gone through but based solely on the fact that

Speaker: We got to hear the testimony of a survivor. It's always going to be a little bit different Oh, yeah, and so we're gonna praise for everything that he did Really really sorry for the people that could you know what I mean? Like I feel bad for mr. Mrs. Steiner I feel bad for mr. Mrs. Phillips cuz well, yeah But

Speaker: I mean, oh my God, not only not only break me if I knew that my son went through that, there was nothing I could freaking do. I mean, you're proud, especially when you know they were so close to you. Yeah. Like as a parent. Holy crap, man. But the deal is, is the deal with that is not only did he solve for Steiner's murder, he would be.

Speaker: be unnamed to this day because no one was looking at a child for that. No, he saved himself. Yeah. But he saved at least 26 other victims that were slotted net because this kid wasn't stopping. No, they call him like his his quote unquote name, which I hate names. We get that.

Speaker: is the bone breaker which aptly put but he was going to continue until he would be like if if that had not escaped and had not had not pointed at a fallen victim he'd been a dumber yeah like he did it in his real keys he would be like one of the big names that just destroyed lives because he had victim after victim because he started at 15 16

Speaker: Young it wasn't even a year later that he got that it was a year it was years like a year and a few days later that he got that so it I would like to know though how many people were in between that because at that young of an age there's not really a

Speaker: OK, hold on. Let me let me phrase this the right way. So like when you talk about serial killers, oh, well, they got arrested. That's probably why they stop. Or, you know, you'll hear Bundy's story or whoever story and they're like, well, I slowed down after I met so and so. This is a young kid.

Speaker: Yeah, you have experienced something in your teen years. OK, where your testosterone is flying, your emotions are flying. You can't tell me he just stopped now with it for a year and did nothing to anybody else. No, there's no way he was. We know at least he was stalking his victims. But I mean, he had a plan. He had several. He would have continued on until he got busted. That saved God knows how many kids from the trauma he lived through. Yeah.

Speaker: So that I mean, just kiss to that. I mean, utmost respect. I can't say enough. Like, I feel like I don't have enough words in my vocabulary. I need a thesaurus to describe all the ways this man is amazing. Yeah. Because he is. Yeah. And I feel like, though, that we would find that in any victim that got to survive. Yeah. And that got to. And I'm not saying got to like. They were so much better than any other victim, but literally like. Yeah.

Speaker: bad choice of words in this case, but you get lucky and you get out. I mean, because. I don't I don't know every every every murder. How many other times did he try to escape where Joe literally could have looked at him and been like, I'm done with you. Yeah, you're dead. Yeah, it was luck. It was it was it was sheer luck and and and pure pure guts.

Speaker: Intestinal fortitude. Yes. I mean, this kid is titanium. He might have titanium plates in his leg now, but his will and his drive and his I mean, the fact that he hasn't like taken over the world just astounds me because with with the drive that kid had, he could do anything. I mean, I am amazed at this. He's a grown man now. Yeah, brute strength, brute strength at that. Yeah, at that age. Wow. So.

Speaker: There's Wisconsin that's going to end our U .S .A. road trip. Yeah, I mean, Wisconsin and Wyoming, that was that was two great stories. I really enjoyed both stories. The summer road trip that turned into the summer, fall road trip turned into the 2022 road trip this summer. Well, it is what it is. We try our best. Either way, we usually fall short. So when you guys wake up tomorrow morning and you're late for work and you're whining because your life is so horrible.

Speaker: I just want you to remember you you can either you can either be a bitch. Or you can be it's not be like Mike, it's be like that. It's been like that, because let's be honest for real. Hard kit. So I'm going to post pictures of both stories on Instagram through the week. Feel free to go see why I'm not very good at the whole. I will post stories. I'm not. I'm not a social media kind of gal. It's not.

Speaker: I did post one tonight though and I found it rather amusing, which is also again how I feel tonight.

Speaker: I thought I had a great story. You did have a good story. And Faith just like, I don't know, she took my story and she rammed it into my face with her story. And I went an hour, too. Naturally. Naturally. Dude, dad. At least. How do you cut out parties? We're at least amusing enough, though, that people probably don't like to shut it off. They're just like, well, these two are so dumb that I want to listen. Yeah. But even if that's the reason you listen, I hope

Speaker: Just kudos to that. That that, you know, I am so amazed by this kid, man. Yeah. I love I love the hero stories. I love survivor tells you and me. But not me. Not today. Love them. Yep. They are amazing. Yep. This is the fact that he was 13. That's sick. No way. That's now still playing with Barbies.

Speaker: Yeah, couldn't sleep in my bed by myself because I was scared. Yeah. Monsters under your bed. This kid's all like, I'm going to I'm going to look at my monster and I'm going to tell him not today, Satan. I can't. Yeah, I just I can't function with how blown away I am by him. So hope anyway. Hope you enjoyed the telling of our tales. Hope you enjoyed it.

Speaker: We will, again, post stuff on social. Come say hi. Tell us what to think. Shout out to staff. Follow, follow, follow. And we'll do our parthenon. Oh, sweet Mary, you. I did that on purpose. I know you did. And the next time you hear from us, which will be next Tuesday night. Yeah.

Speaker: It shall not be in the United States. I feel confident that I can say Lisa is going to preach out of the United States. She might not. I might not. I might just do it to piss you off. I don't even know. Bite me. I don't care. I'm going abroad. It's going to be it's going to be a celebratory podcast. And it will be. Yeah. I have been very overwhelmed this summer slash all. It has been fun. It's been fun. It's also been fun watching how many people actually sit and listen to us.

Speaker: It has worked. I only let myself look on Monday so I don't get obsessed. Yeah. Is that I'm like, how do you not love this story? It's that everyone in the world should listen to this story. It's bad. Do you not know? My dad is a gold, even if we have to record them three times. Yeah. I like every story, but that's that's great. That was something that I've got a whole spreadsheet of survivor tells that. Oh, well, I mean, yeah, when we did that and we did.

Speaker: My Tennessee one couple of weeks ago was Phenom. OK, that kid. He was not a survivor tell, but now he is just a hero. Frickin hero. Anyways, guys, I'm sorry, we can ramble on all night. You'll have a great night. We will see you later. Have a good week. Bye.