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Maureen Fournier's Horrific Assault and Trial
108 Plays9 months ago
In this episode Faith will tell you the tragic case of Maureen Fournier who is found after being brutally assaulted. While she cannot give the details of who attacked her and why – her friends and family know exactly where to point the detectives. What seems like an open & shut case as twists that you never see coming.
TRIGGER WARNING – Graphic details of this crime are discussed. Please listen for when to fast forward if you are sensitive to that content.
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Transcript
Introduction and Banter
00:00:05
Speaker
Well, good day to you and thanks for listening to Twisted Tales. Yes, I heard the way I said that. And this is Faye, the judgmental one. Absolutely. Which who has no reason to be judgmental after all her reading last week, past two weeks. I read everything really well. Uh huh.
Episode Title and Humor
00:00:27
Speaker
But thanks for listening to us tells and I'm be honest with you I had this episode name and I was very excited about I had it named I was ready to go Nope, I realized I can't use Well the truth set you free because you named all your truth the first year like it wasn't until I was looking he feels like I can't use truth at all like I can't say anything about truth in my title because
00:00:52
Speaker
All leases where the truth will set you free. The truth, the truth, the truth, truth and lies, truth, truth, truth. So anyway, I have no idea what I'll name this now. Thank you very much. I hope you name it. Yeah, maybe. Who knows? I'll name it at some point before I post it. Art'll just be the episode which shall not be named. There you go. Might be the name. Who knows?
Content Warning and Story Details
00:01:12
Speaker
So I'm going to warn you in tonight's episode.
00:01:16
Speaker
Um, you have to pay a little bit of attention because we're going to jump a little bit around and there's again, like, apparently I really enjoy several people with the same exact names. Yep. It's okay. They're not main characters. Fine, fine, fine, fine.
00:01:33
Speaker
Um, so no big deal there at all. Um, sorry, kids were screaming outside and I was like completely sidetracked by that, but I'm back on now. So it's okay. Anyways, you got anything new with you over there? I'm just, uh, you know, got a migraine and suffering through me. Yeah, pretty much. Well, that's just life. Who does it? It's all right. Who does it?
00:02:02
Speaker
All right, well. I will say tonight's episode does have a few graphic contents, and I will warn you before those graphic contents, so let's. I have to listen to your mouth, so don't go into like tit for tat. I'm not going to give brave details. I'm going to explain what happened, and there's some graphicness to it anyway.
Maureen's Attack and Hospitalization
00:02:25
Speaker
So we're going to start our story August 9th, 1991.
00:02:30
Speaker
You know how I feel about the 90s. And we're jumping right into it because on August 9th, 1991 at 4 20 a.m. the police were called in the city of Detroit, Michigan with a not really a complaint but an alert that there was a naked woman on the road laying there moaning. Middle of the road.
00:02:54
Speaker
The police did not arrive quickly enough, but the ambulance did and took the woman directly to the hospital, obviously. Something's wrong. Yeah, obviously. Yeah. Excuse me. She was triaged and assessed for injuries and her body core temp was 93 degrees.
00:03:16
Speaker
Now, in my mind, normal body temp is like 98.6, right? So 93 degrees doesn't seem that off to me. So I did some Googling. And mild hypothermia occurs when your core body temp is between 98.6 and 96. Moderate hypothermia is 95 to 93. So she's mild hypothermia. When your body reaches 92, which is just one degrees lower, you're in a life-threatening situation.
00:03:46
Speaker
So she's doing a little bit worse on the body cortex than I thought. Um, and she's in extreme pain. She's incoherent and mumbling. And for the first 20 minutes, they can't even get like a coherent answer of what's your name from her, which will, you know, we'll get to why completely understandable in my opinion. Um, and they, she couldn't even keep track of what they're asking. She's literally just mumbling, moaning, and just writhing in pain.
00:04:14
Speaker
However, once the hospital got some fluids into her and the shock I am sure wore off and I'm going to go ahead and make a estimated gas, healthy dose of painkillers kicked in.
Family Reaction and Colleen's Role
00:04:28
Speaker
Um, she's able to give the staff her sister's name and phone number and state her name is Maureen. Now for her injury, this is where you might want to fast forward three to five minutes, but, um, I'm going to give you a list of the injuries they found on her.
00:04:44
Speaker
So, they consisted of a broken jaw, her head was split open, but the skull was intact, bleeding in all four hemispheres of her brain, multiple bite marks, deep bite marks, and bruises covered her entire body, a black eye, and her rectum was missing. Yeah, I, you know, this is where it gets a little bit more graphic. By missing, I mean that there was a four inch gap
00:05:12
Speaker
that went 12 inches inside of her body where her colon was left hanging out of this gap six inches out of her body, yes. This type of injury could only be made by a foreign object, example, stick or pull, and it would have to be minimum of four inches wide and 12 inches long to make this
00:05:38
Speaker
Injuries. Yes. And it would have had to been forced into her rectum. The wound was obviously traumatic, bleeding profusely. And the damaged area around her rectum had grass covering it. Like grass was stuck in the blood, the blood and gourd pieces. So that's why I said I'm assuming a healthy dose of painkillers was needed. So who is this very, very broken woman? Well, I've told you her name is Maureen. It's Maureen Forner.
00:06:08
Speaker
F-O-U-R-N-I-E-R, Maureen Forner. And she is currently at this point in the story, 22 years old. She was married at just 15 years of age.
Maureen's Past with Jeffrey
00:06:18
Speaker
And literally while I was typing this out, I was like, what? And your brother was like, what? And I said, okay, she's married at 15, which normally I would think is like a 1940 story, but this is 1991. So that means she was born in the 70s. That's not common.
00:06:37
Speaker
But why would that be common, you think? I thought pregnancy, honestly. Oh, well, yeah. So she was married at 15 and divorced by age 19. She currently had a five year old son. And she is at the time in one of those, we'll call it volatile on and again, off again relationships.
00:06:59
Speaker
with a man named Jeffrey Moldewan. So Jeffrey and Maureen met 13 months prior to the incident that the summer 13 months prior and they lived together. And at this point they were on if the friends who were keeping score in the background, 10 times they've broken up and gotten back together these 13 months. So very tumultuous, I can't say that word obviously. Relationship.
00:07:27
Speaker
Jeffrey goes by Jeff. He is 21 years old and does have a history with the law.
00:07:32
Speaker
It consists of multiple arrests, including disorderly conduct and assault and battery. I am so happy right now. I'm sure you are. I'm so happy right now. Audists all over again. Except I can't read anything. We got to get the bladderlies out here. Sorry, assault and battery, you know, just minor misdemeanors, which caused him to serve some time in jail.
00:07:59
Speaker
But he'd been released every time after quick stays, I'm sure overcrowding. But anybody that knew them that you asked, they would tell you this relationship was literally made in hell. Like they are awful for each other.
00:08:12
Speaker
So Jeff had just recently gotten out of jail again a couple weeks prior to this incident, and he had been released from jail because he assaulted Maureen's dad with a table leg. Okay. Someone go on a limb and say her family probably doesn't approve of this relationship either. Probably not. Probably not, right?
Critical Lead from Colleen
00:08:31
Speaker
So after Maureen is taken to the hospital and assessed, she's stabilized. The hospital calls her sister, Maureen, who is only 17 years old.
00:08:41
Speaker
However, for being a 17 year old, she's gotten a head start in life. She's already got a baby and she currently lives with her boyfriend who is Maureen's ex-husband. Oh. So her ex-brother-in-law. Okay. Keeping it in the family. He clearly likes them young. You didn't think about that, but ding, ding, ding. Yeah. Yeah. So the hospital did do a rape exam on Maureen and there were no signs of trauma or injury to her
00:09:09
Speaker
vagina and no semen present at all that they could find. Which again, we talked about the injury to her rectum. So that was not made by a penis. Obviously. It's just not. Even in male, even in quote unquote male inches, that's stupid. So, um, the police obviously want to question Maureen, but they are unable
Maureen Identifies Attackers
00:09:33
Speaker
to. Number one, she's in and out of consciousness.
00:09:35
Speaker
and her jaw had been wired shut during surgery due to her, you know, it was broken. So yeah. So they, uh, they can't talk to her. And, uh, one other little thing is that when her lab test came back, her blood alcohol showed her being at a level 0.274. Now, again, I'm not smart. And in my mind, the legal limit is 0.8.
00:10:05
Speaker
So again, I literally thought the legal limit was 0.8. So I was like, why is 0.2 that big of a deal? The legal limit is not 0.8, 0.08. But since I didn't know, I did, again, some Googling. Actually, first I asked your brother, then I did some Googling.
00:10:27
Speaker
These are, according to arrivelive.com, here are the symptoms she would have been experiencing with this blood alcohol. Up to a .10, the effects are loss of inhibition, exaggerated self-confidence, loss of concentration and or normal judgment, affected coordination, reaction time is slowed by four times slower.
00:10:51
Speaker
So from point 10 to point 25, point 10 to point 15, all the above mentioned effects are still in play. In addition to emotional instability, memory problems, ataxia, which is the loss of muscle control in your arms and legs, apraxia, which is a disorder of the brain and nervous system in which a person is unable to perform tasks or movements when asked, even though they understand what you're telling them to do, they can't physically do it.
00:11:20
Speaker
Reaction time is slowed further than the four times slower already orientation concerning Time place in person may be effective. So she's got all this still on top of that point fifteen to point twenty-five the effects continue to add and worsen with coordination continuing to deteriorate loss of orientation balance disturbances
00:11:46
Speaker
apathy, emotional eruptions and numbness and slowed reaction to painful stimuli, partial amnesia. Quite frankly, slower reaction to painful stimuli and partial amnesia, I would have been a good friend, would be good considering you have no rectum left. Yes.
00:12:06
Speaker
Finally, at alcohol levels of 0.25 to 0.35, which is where she is at 0.274. We're getting it like stomach needs to be pumped. This is where we're at. All the above symptoms are just continuing to worsen under there and include a total loss of muscle coordination, apathy,
00:12:28
Speaker
at times stupor, total loss of orientation, amnesia. And at these levels, the Cleveland Clinic also states that alcohol poisoning is a possibility which can be life threatening. So she's at like the end of the rope here on the alcohol blood. So originally I was like- When you're saying 0.8, I'm sitting here thinking,
Suspects' Alibis Questioned
00:12:48
Speaker
dude, that's like death. Yeah. Well, when they said 0.274 and they were like, oh my God, I was like, that's not, that's below legal level. Why? And then I told your brother and he was like, you're dumb. And I'm like, okay.
00:12:58
Speaker
Yes. So that's all right. But again, we all know about those vicious birds that fly into planes. Right. Flamingos. Do you think I ever let him live that down? No. Yeah. Side note for our inside joke, before Lisa had a life and a boyfriend, she used to spend
00:13:19
Speaker
in the northern middle of time at my house with me and my husband. And at one point it was when that pilot saved the plane over the river when those birds flew into the engine. So we're talking about what kind of birds, Lisa and I, because we have these debates. What kind of bird could fly into an engine to take a plane down? Like how big? To which her brother says,
00:13:42
Speaker
those flamingos. And we were like, we both just stopped our conversation. We're like hawks, eagles, flamingos. And we both just stopped and turned around and we're like, what did you say? He's like, I thought we were just talking about big birds. Yeah. No, you didn't, sir. So now anytime we are in Florida and pass a yard with law on flamingos, I'm like, oh, God, thankfully it's not in the air.
00:14:09
Speaker
Not that you all cared about our inside joke, but now you're on the inside. Welcome, friends. If you haven't noticed, Faith and I really, really like to pick on others. And each other. If no one else is around, it's each other. Yes. Yes, it is what it is. It's not bullying. It's just good old fashioned fun. Good old fashioned fun. Good old fashioned fun.
00:14:28
Speaker
So if you've got if you've got a, you know, I don't even know why flamingos came out. Just ignore us or just use that 15 minutes. I say already dumb thing. She does. We're going to have to stop and work for 45 minutes and make fun of the other. Yeah. All right. So we still want the balattilis. Are we? Oh, no, no, no, that's right. We already got the point. Yes. We're on the point eight alcohol. So anyway. Yes. So.
00:14:59
Speaker
Quite frankly, with her injuries, I think that much alcohol in her system was probably what got her through it. So it's kind of a blessing at this point? Yep. So Maureen is in and out of consciousness for around two days after the surgery. And we'll have to have a colostomy bag for the remainder of her life. The surgeries were not able to put her back together the same way she was because all of her anal muscles were completely gone. She had nothing left.
00:15:28
Speaker
She will be reminded literally of this incident multiple times a day. Anytime she asked to empty her colostomy bag, she will remember what happened. Like it's not something you can try to block out. Correct. So when Colleen, her 17 year old sister, remember that shacked up with her ex-husband, got the call of your sister's been assaulted. She's in the ER, bad shape.
00:15:55
Speaker
She may be advanced for 17, but a 17-year-old can't handle that kind of information. So she called Mama, obviously. Mama rushed to the hospital, obviously. So during these two days while she's in and out of consciousness, her mother and the rest of her family are coming to visit, sit with her, hold her hand, just talk to her. As mentioned before, her jaw's wired shut. She can't talk back. She's not even really coherent, but they're there.
00:16:24
Speaker
since the police and detectives could not imagine the rage i would feel oh i couldn't imagine it like no because that's not like drawing a portrait that's not that's not you weren't just like beat up that would that would incite rage for me as well but just i'm just saying that's beyond i think at that moment in time murder would definitely cross my mind i'd be fine with it i'd be fine going to jail
00:16:49
Speaker
100%. I would accidentally on purpose hit you with my car a couple of times. Yeah. And temporary insanity. My daughter has a four by 12 inch hole where her ass used to be. Yeah.
00:17:01
Speaker
Who's what jury is gonna convict? Honestly, let's just be serious. I was mentally incapacitated for a moment. Yeah, I saw red I don't know. I don't even remember what happened woke up and here we are. Here we are I saw red but when I woke up it the blood was covering me. So maybe that's the red I saw I don't know. Yep. Nope So police and detectives were very
00:17:22
Speaker
Motivated obviously they're not gonna wait for Maureen to be able to talk because They more than likely all at least one has a daughter or a sister So everyone's kind of taking this personally like this is again beyond the pill So they don't wait to talk to her and they go to talk to her family to see if they have any idea Who could do this why it would happen? Do you know of anything? Colleen is the first they sit down to talk to you and
00:17:47
Speaker
and apparently the only one they needed to talk to because as her sister, 22 and 17, they're close, obviously. One got married and divorced, the other one shacked up with them, so they share information and things. And Colleen says, they ask her, you know, standard questions and she says, I know exactly who did this to my sister.
Confrontation and Threats
00:18:06
Speaker
According to Colleen, the night her sister was brutally beaten, her boyfriend, Jeff,
00:18:12
Speaker
had called Colleen's house numerous times. And there were numerous threats made from Jeff against Colleen if she did not tell him exactly where Maureen was. Which all these calls and all these threats all culminated in the last phone call Jeff made at 1.30 AM. At which point Jeff stated, I know where your sister is and I'm gonna kill her.
00:18:35
Speaker
I'm gonna cut her into pieces. So Colleen went on to tell the police that around noon on August 9th, she received another phone call from Jeff the day after, her sister's currently in surgery, noon, from Jeff and sorry, lost my spot there. So this is about the time he called, Colleen is right after she'd gotten out of surgery.
00:19:01
Speaker
and says, do you know where Maureen is? Colleen told the police. She told Jeff. Yeah, I know exactly where she is. She's sitting right here beside me. And Jeff said, no, she's not. She's at the morgue because my friends and me ran into her last night. So Colleen being the sleuth that she is said, ask Jeff, who are these friends that you were with that ran into? Who are you with when you guys ran into my sister? He said, Mike, Jim, and a guy named Tracy. So
00:19:28
Speaker
Police are listening to this. They've got all this information. And first they want to know, why would you lie? Why would you say Maureen is sitting right next to you when she's obviously in the hospital? Colleen just looked at the cops straight to their face and said, I wanted Jeff to come over to my house so I could shoot and kill him with my gun, to which I say respect. So she thought. She thought he'd come over. But she thought that he would, that he did it. Like, why did she? Well, she didn't at that point.
00:19:57
Speaker
She thought that he was involved. They he's been in and out of prison. They have a everybody hates this guy. OK, so she thought he probably had something to do with it. Maybe that he wasn't involved, but she just was trying to play like maybe you thought you hurt her.
00:20:13
Speaker
not as bad as you thought you hurt her so she's here and she's fine she's just a little banged up like you know two months ago when you hit her and Jeff was like no she's dead I ran into her last night I know she's dead just flat out told the cops I was gonna kill him okay I knew he did it I killed him but he admitted he did it and here's the four here's his three friends that were went with him
00:20:34
Speaker
So at this point, just to recap, Colleen named the four men that did this to her sister, Jeff, Mike, Jim, and a guy named Tracy, all four of whom were promptly arrested. No fuss, no muss, no coconuts. Straight to interrogation. When Maureen is finally conscious enough that the police and detectives can talk to her, they still want to
00:20:59
Speaker
get what she remembers about the night of the incident, being that she could still not speak. She's not able to give like a play by play or a full account of what happened. But thinking outside the box, they got her a board.
00:21:14
Speaker
where she could point to different letters and words to respond to their questions. And it's a board that's commonly used in the hospital on stroke floors for patients who can't talk. So they got her a stroke board and she was able to communicate some with them. She let them know that she recognized who assaulted her.
00:21:35
Speaker
She had met them before and knew them. She named them as Jeff, Jeff's friend Mike, Jeff's other friend Jim, and a guy named Tracy, also friends with Jeff, which matched the people they already have.
00:21:50
Speaker
at the station and her sister's account of what Jeff told her. Once the men are arrested, the guy named Tracy is immediately released. Was Jeff the boyfriend? Correct. Okay. I just wanted to make sure I was getting my names backwards again.
00:22:06
Speaker
I couldn't remember if that was the husband, ex-husband, or friend. We don't know the ex-husband's name. We just know he's- Oh, alright. Alright. Yeah. That was just an odd tidbit I failed. Just an odd, like, if I divorced a guy, I don't think I'd be okay with any of my friends and or sister marrying him. Yeah, no. Not so much. That was just him. That was just him.
00:22:27
Speaker
That was a freebie, if you will. Jeff's the boyfriend. So Tracy, the guy named Tracy is immediately released because he actually does have an airtight alibi for the night Tracy, Tracy, good Lord. That's Tracy. The night Maureen was attacked because he wasn't even in the state. So he obviously, what didn't do it, he's allowed to leave. Detective Engel is the lead investigator on this case.
00:22:53
Speaker
And immediately when news that they've got these three men in custody, at three different times, three different people came forward wanting to talk to Detective Ingalls, of course, to give Jeff an alibi. Because low people always have plenty of friends, right? Detective Ingalls wouldn't talk to him. He said he was too busy to speak to them. And all three came back at different times demanding to speak with Detective Ingalls to give their statement.
00:23:21
Speaker
There was a man named Ken that stated he was with Jeff. There was a woman named Jackie that said she was with Jeff during the incident. And then there was a boy named Eddie, 15 year old boy that stated he was with Jeff during the incident.
00:23:39
Speaker
then why did Jeff say on the phone he did it? And how was he with three different people at the same time? I don't know. Quite frankly, the attack happened at two o'clock in the morning. So what's a 15 year old doing up at two o'clock in the morning hanging out with a grown ass man? Would be my first question. Not anything good. Yeah. Yeah. And how are you hanging out with three different people at two o'clock in the morning? There's not. Who's awake at two o'clock in the morning? I want to know who you are. Why would you say yes? And then be like, no, here are all of my alibis.
00:24:08
Speaker
Yeah, because again, it never it never ceases to astonish me. How many people will lie for an alibi? That really sucks. What? I was ever arrested. I think my alibi is literally going to be sitting low in the basement. I was asleep. Yeah. Two o'clock in the morning, you say? I was on my third room cycle. Thank you very much. Probably like a second pee of the night.
00:24:35
Speaker
And counting sheep. Yeah, no, there's no way. Yeah, my alibis would suck. Oh, yeah, I was asleep. I'll hang out with my my dog. I don't. Can anyone account for your whereabouts? No.
00:24:48
Speaker
Brian went to bed an hour before I did. So when Detective Ingalls finally makes the time to sit down with these people he very sternly and plainly tells them if you are found out to be lying you will spend life in prison alongside your buddy Jeff who will spend life in prison and all three stuck to the story Jeff salt of the earth guy they didn't they were with him two o'clock in the morning kicking it
00:25:15
Speaker
again next question how this many people awake at 2 o'clock in the morning bullshit next question what Jeff yes why did you have a 15 year old boy at your house yeah yeah and if I was his mama I'd be in there wanting to know to and then I would arrest you for being
00:25:41
Speaker
Hells yes. You're already arrested, so you could just stay there. I could do that. I'm just going to let it slip that you were with a 15 year old boy at two o'clock in the morning. Yeah. Hey, big ball to everyone. Yeah. Just to let you know. This guy has got creeper written all over him. Yeah. So in the following weeks, Maureen is able to, when she's able to speak again, she does sit down with police and she's interviewed two different times. And this is how she described that fateful night.
00:26:09
Speaker
On August 8th, she started out the day with her ex-sister-in-law, who was also her best friend Patty, around two o'clock in the afternoon. The girls hung out at Patty's house, then they left Patty's house and went to the park with a six pack of beer and a few things to which she referred to as a cue. I didn't know what that was either. It is slang for a 32 ounce beer. So you got six packs and a couple of 32 ounces in the freezer, tall bowls.
00:26:37
Speaker
Um, when they were out of drinks at the park, they were done hanging out. So Maureen had Patty drop her off at a bar called Clems around 6 PM when Patty was on her way back home at Clems. And this is her statement to the police at Clems.
00:26:54
Speaker
Maureen said that she had one more beer. She's already drank most of the six pack and the cues. Um, had one more beer in the two hours she was there, but was eventually asked to leave because she'd been joking around with some guys playing pool, which let's be honest, she was heckling them. We know her blood alcohol level. Um, she, she was getting a little rowdy, probably mouthy, if you will. Um, but anyway, they asked her to leave. So she left.
00:27:20
Speaker
After she left Clems, it was around 8.15, so she'd spent two hours there, she decided to walk home. It was a three mile walk, not a big deal, which personally, I would not do at night by myself. That drunk? Are you kidding me? I get lost backing out of my driveway. Right. Okay, whatever. But as previously discussed, her judgments impaired you the amount of alcohol. So on top of the bad decision of walking home, as you just stated so eloquently, she accidentally went the wrong way.
00:27:48
Speaker
And it took her about a mile of walking the wrong way to realize her house is the other way. Yeah. So now she got to turn around and walk four miles back. So, um, Maureen described herself as drunk, but she does not consider herself an alcoholic, even if others do. Um, and she stated that she never passed out from drinking before. She didn't that night. She was slightly in her words, discombobulated, but she was not shitfaced at all that night. Okay.
00:28:16
Speaker
She's had a buzz. She had a buzz. Yeah. 0.274. That's what everybody says. Yes. I'm buzzing, but I'm all right. Right? Yeah. Taco Bell. So all the way walking back home, let's be honest, it's Waffle House. I was just going to say, you're just the Waffle House all the way. Yeah. Yeah. A few cups of coffee and diarrhea. Yep. And that's
00:28:38
Speaker
That's the end of a drug night. So she has to walk four miles back to her house at this point. And she is in an intersection in Michigan, 11 mile and Mound Road, which apparently Mound Road is a six lane, six lanes of traffic. It's very busy. And so she is walking. That's what I thought.
00:29:02
Speaker
So she is walking down a road that has a minimum of three lanes of traffic, heavy traffic going one way. She's walking down this side of the road. Imagine a highway, yes.
00:29:13
Speaker
When, according to Maureen, she's walking this path and a white or gray van stopped, two men got out, grabbed her, and threw her in the van. These men were Jeff and Mike during statement one. During statement two, it was Jeff and Jim. Depending on which statement you read, it's those two people. It seems she might've gotten a little confused on who the second man was.
00:29:36
Speaker
But she knows beyond a shadow of a doubt, one of the men is Jeff, which makes sense again with the amount of alcohol she's consumed, the trauma, the surgery. She knows Jeff, but maybe the other ones are just kind of meshing, you know? She states that after being thrown into the van by Jeff and Mike, Jeff started beating her with his fists. Afterwards, he raped her vaginally and anally. Next.
00:30:02
Speaker
Next, Jim raped her vaginally and anally, followed by Mike raping her vaginally. So she was gang raped by three men as a fourth drove. And the next thing she remembers is waking up in the hospital. A preliminary examination took place in the next few weeks.
00:30:20
Speaker
And this isn't like a medical, this is where the court listens to all the evidence to say if there's enough to proceed to a trial. Right, to project. Yes, all of them. So at this exam there were three defendants, Jeffrey Maudelon, Jim Christie, and Mike Cristini.
Trial and Maureen's Testimony
00:30:41
Speaker
Maureen was asked at court to make a definitive answer about if Jim or Mike, which one of the two Christina brothers grabbed her because Jim and Mike are brothers. So that leads credence to why she can't remember which one. If they're brothers, they probably look a little bit alike, right?
00:30:59
Speaker
And in each report, she named a different one. So that's the first thing. They want to know which of the Christina brothers grabbed her that night with Jeff. So on stand, she points over to her mic and Jim are sitting because they're all being tried together here in this exam. And she says, those are the ones that grabbed me, Jim or Mike. I'm not sure which one, but I guess it was Mike.
00:31:20
Speaker
However, multiple times during her testimony, she points to Jim and refers to him as Mike. And the prosecutor finally literally has to tell her, that once Jim, you gotta go over a few inches to be pointing to Mike.
00:31:35
Speaker
Um, and she says, okay, sorry, lost my spot. Um, finally has told her which one Mike, the defense attorney points to Jim and asks Maureen, is this the guy that kidnapped you? And she finally just said, I don't know which one it was. I don't know.
00:31:50
Speaker
So on the one hand, they're brothers, so they may look similar. And at first glance, these are her boyfriend's friends. We don't know how much time she spent with them. We don't know if she knew them well enough to tell them apart. It could have just been one that like, you know, you meet them out. They've broken up 10 times in 13 months. So that's my first initial thought. She might not know them well enough to know, except that she knew Mike well enough and was comfortable enough with Mike, real Mike,
00:32:20
Speaker
To have him spend the night at her house multiple times, even when Jeff was not there, whether he was out of town or in prison, who knows? So she knew who Mike was at least. So the only thing in my mind is with the amount of alcohol she had.
00:32:35
Speaker
No. And with the with the trauma that she went through, her brain is probably protecting her from some of it. And it's all just a blur and a mesh. Yeah. Multiple surgeries to try to repair stuff. In and out for days. You don't know what your brain is like showing you of that trauma, reliving and mixing up. You know what I mean? So that's not a deal breaker for me, honestly.
00:33:04
Speaker
Um, it also came out in this preliminary exam that Jeff had a broken leg at the time of the incident. That's what his defense tried to say. He's got a broken leg. Look, he's got a crutch. Obviously. Um, he, he'd have a hard time jumping in and out of a van to abduct a woman on a busy street. But to that, I say, number one, it's not that hard to buy a crutch or borrow a crutch. I got four pairs in my attic. I got four sitting right there. Also boots. You can order those off eBay, Amazon.
00:33:35
Speaker
Jim, one of the other defendants, sitting right next to Jeff, actually did run over Jeff and fracture his leg because they were in a separate lawsuit for damages. So that was true, but it doesn't mean like I've seen people with broken legs do a lot of things that's casted. That holds no weight. So a police officer...
00:33:58
Speaker
Yeah, it's not like she put up a lot of a fight. Let's be honest. So a police officer, no, all five of them, a police officer at the hearing testified that the area where Maureen was found naked moaning on the ground bound was a high crime area and a lot of crack cocaine was sold there along with a high prostitution rate in the area. So
00:34:23
Speaker
So this random. Yeah. Well, randomly or like. Yeah, I'm going to rip out your rectum. Well, random. I really can't. We've done some. But yes. When it came time for Marine to officially take the state and testify, she stated that she'd never been in this area before. However, the defense attorney did cross-examine and show a police report from a few months prior in which Marine had been outside a bar, a block or two from this area.
00:34:54
Speaker
And she'd been robbed at knife point by a black man who beat her up and attempted to steal her money. And when he was like, what do you have to say about that? And she was like, I really just don't see how that's relevant to what we're dealing with today. Basically like you're trying, you're trying to muddle facts when your, your little buddies that you're defending over there brutally assaulted me. I can show you my philosophy back and throw it in your face.
00:35:20
Speaker
Yeah, I'd make him eat it. Yeah. So the preliminary exam took all the evidence and testimony. And when the judge, it came time for the judge to determine if there's enough information to proceed to criminal trial. And the judge overseeing ruling that there was enough evidence for Mike and Christina and for Jeff. However, Mike's brother Jim, there wasn't enough for, and he's allowed to leave.
00:35:48
Speaker
But Mike and Jeff, two of the people, Mike and Jeff will be tried. So the trial commenced on April 30th, 1991 with Mike, Christine and Jeff.
00:36:03
Speaker
It did. This whole case is like bam, bam, bam, bam. Right? Yeah, no, no, they went straight to trial. Same year too. Like, yeah, super quick. The two men were decided to be tried together, not separate, which I think is the first time I've ever seen.
00:36:28
Speaker
In all the cases we've talked about, at least, usually they want separate trials for each defendant. These two want to be trial together. Yes. NARC somebody. Basically. Maureen testified that Jeff would make statements to her leading up to the incident. Like, I'm gonna kill you bitch.
00:36:46
Speaker
We're gonna get back together the easy way or the hard way, up to you. You don't have the right to live without me any longer. Nice, you know, when you back type of statement. That's sick, dude. Right? What goes through people's minds? He also just got a gel for beating her father with a table leg. Yeah. So, again, she stated that she took those threats extremely seriously.
00:37:11
Speaker
However, Jeff's attorney wanted to know if you took those threats so seriously. Why did you occasionally hook up with him? Basically saying, you know, look at her. She's a slut. Let's be honest. That's their tactic Could it one may not have just been like a slut but saying like She still loved him. Yeah, but there was always a chance you kept your door open is basically what he's saying
00:37:34
Speaker
Correct. Okay. So she also stated in her testimony that there were tire tracks on her legs and that she had never used crack cocaine or regular cocaine.
00:37:47
Speaker
Again, this is his defense trying to say you're a druggie. You're not credible. Basically, the defense attorney tried every avenue to tarnish her reputation like they always do. She described the van in more detail. And I'm just going to go ahead and throw this out just for the record. Just for the record. I don't care if you had tracks going up your arms, legs, between your toes. I don't care. Nobody deserves that. Your rectum's missing. You've been assaulted. Yeah. I don't give a crap.
00:38:17
Speaker
Yeah, I ran down the street freaking naked. Yeah, I don't care. No, no, I don't deserve that hundo percent I'm with you. I'm sorry, but that's just so that is so messed up Oh, yeah, and they you see it all the time on TV shows, but it it it's real life like that's how they do They're gonna dig up every little piece of crap on you in certain Aspects, okay, let's say pull it Yeah, I don't want to know if the guy behind me
00:38:44
Speaker
Behind the, you know, the gab is a piece of shits, right? I need to know that. Okay. So if the guy behind the gablin is a piece of shits and he did all this crazy stuff, no, I'm not going to trust him to make an intelligent decision on the rest of my life, obviously, because he's effed his up so bad, right? But if somebody had taken that gablin, forced it into his, uh, people,
00:39:11
Speaker
I don't care what I did in this past, somebody needs to pay for that. I just need to ask, is it gavel or gavelin? I don't know. I'm pretty sure it's gavel. It's probably gavel. And you keep calling it a gavelin. And that's not correct. Maybe it's because I'm thinking of javelin. That's not a word. What's a javelin? The javelin are those big poles.
00:39:30
Speaker
OK, they chuck them. We will Google that shiz later. We're going to have to because I want to try to prove you wrong. I'm just making stuff up right now. I don't carry the way. Yep. I'm just saying. Yep. So yeah, that is your face was amazing. Yeah. That's shut up. Let me go. Yeah. But that's that that and like saying that a prostitute deserved it because they're a prostitute. Like those are my two biggest. Exactly. Yeah. You don't ever deserve what? Just a hooker right now. No, no, no, no, no. I don't care what she did.
00:40:00
Speaker
People don't deserve that. All right. Unless, unless you're the piece of shit that did it to her, then yes, you deserve it. Agree. Agree. So she described the van in more detail stating that she'd never been in it prior. She she'd never seen it prior.
00:40:20
Speaker
There were no seats on the inside, just a rug on the floor. The biggest issue at trial, like the biggest hoopla, if you will, was trying to get the original person who called 911 to come in and testify.
Exclusion of Controversial Witness
00:40:35
Speaker
This person's name was Tracy Marshall, another Tracy, not a guy named Tracy, different Tracy Marshall. Chick Tracy, we'll call. Yep. Well, yep. And you'll get, well, you'll, you'll, you'll in two seconds. Tracy wanted Tracy too. We'll keep going. And this is literally the official court transcript. What I'm going to read and it is 1991. So don't at me. I don't hate anybody. I judge all people equally. Absolutely. Yeah. I hate everybody equally.
00:41:04
Speaker
So, um, Tracy Marshall was described as a she-mail because he was a, he or she was a transvestite in the court transcript. Again, they called it transvestite. Transgender wasn't a thing yet. The court was unable to produce Tracy for the trial because there were issues that they wanted to use Tracy statement that was made to the police on the phone, but not have Tracy there in person. The prosecution,
00:41:32
Speaker
stated that, and this is a direct quote, we have this particular witness. It's someone who lives an entirely different lifestyle. We have a Tracy Marshall, who is obviously a transvestite living in a house with other transvestites. And this is the kind of person I suggest does not do the types of thing normal people do, such as notify the post office when you move, so on and so forth.
00:42:01
Speaker
All right, so can I just jump in for two seconds? Go right ahead. You know why they would do that back in the 90s? Why? Because back then it was a mental defect. Yeah. And that's 100% honest. I'm not saying that, again, like you said, to be weird in any kind of way, but back then it was literally considered.
00:42:18
Speaker
You were not normal. And quite frankly, to that statement, I have to say this. You said that this transvestite doesn't do things that normal people ought to, such as notify the post office, right? This transvestite saw a woman in trouble and called 911. Do we want to go back to the other case where the woman was raped out with a knife in the middle of New York and no one called 911 because everyone thought someone else would? That is not something normal people do. They saw something and said something, so way to go, Tracy Marshall.
00:42:47
Speaker
The judge stated that again as his official verbiage. This is in parentheses, so don't at me.
00:42:54
Speaker
the credibility would be important, especially with this particular witness and this particular witness's lifestyle. We have determined this person is a transvestite and that they have some, and that may have some bearing on this statement. Basically, we can't believe a word that comes out of that lion, she mails mouth. Right. And there are words from earlier. Again, because they thought that you're delusional, like you are,
00:43:22
Speaker
Not right, right? Like they put you on the same category as somebody with mental retardation. Correct. The judge decides not to allow the statement in. Nothing that this person said. Not sure. The prosecutor calls forth a forensic dentist to the stand and
00:43:42
Speaker
because remember, she had bite marks all over her body. Correct. There were three of these bite marks that they were able to get. I was kind of wondering, too, if that was ever going to come back up. Can't they do like dental tests to see if it matches? They can. On three of the bite marks, they were so deep, they were able to get full impression sets.
00:43:59
Speaker
Oh, and this dentist testified that the bike bite mark look the Lord. It's OK. I'll worry all over time. The bite mark located on Maureen's neck was one was two point one billionth of a chance that it was from Jeff and the other two bite marks from the brass in the forearm were two million more of a chance of being of being
Forensic Evidence Dispute
00:44:25
Speaker
mics. So they're there.
00:44:27
Speaker
Like they're two million times more likely to be mics than any other person, these two bite marks. And that bite marks 2.1 million times more likely to be Jeff's than anybody else's. So basically, 99.9% of a match. And the forensic dentist went on to state that bite marks are like fingerprints and that they are unique to each person. Yeah, because nobody has the same shaped tooth. Right. So the defense attorney hired their own forensic dentist. Oh, of course they did.
00:44:57
Speaker
who came in and stated it was complete and utterly impossible for these bite marks to match any of the bite marks the three bite marks to match either Jeff and or Mike's
00:45:08
Speaker
that you'd think that no matter what he did or which way he tried to line things up, it didn't match. Like if he got one tooth on the impression, aligned with one tooth on Mike's actual dental impression, none of the others would line up and so forth. Like they just didn't fit. To rebut this, the prosecution brings in a second forensic dentist, which did work with the first forensic dentist they brought in and the, you know,
00:45:37
Speaker
in the defense's side but that the second forensic dentist backed up the first stating that they they're they're matched like there's no question you have to be stupid to not be able to match these up.
00:45:51
Speaker
They don't have to be stupid. You just have to plant a little bit of doubt. So the defense attorney calls in the bartender for Clems to take the stand. They testified that Maureen was there and consumed four to six beers instead of the one that she had stated. Look, she's not reliable. She can't tell. I was just going to say, dude, if you asked me on a bad night in my twenties how many beers I drink that night,
00:46:16
Speaker
You drank a keg by yourself, Yuri. Yeah, right? So furthermore, the bartender testifies that there was a pool league there that night and she was harassing them. He repeatedly asked her to leave, and she never did. So he finally took her beer away?
00:46:37
Speaker
And since she didn't have a beer, she just wandered off. She was gone. And so, like, I'm also just going to stay for the record. Nobody's shocked. Even if she said she had one beer. Yeah. Her her her alcohol level at that point was three point three five point two seven four point two. OK, thank you. Point two seven four. You knew she was wrecked. Yeah. You knew she was right. But why is that even up for debate? I don't know about how many beers you have at the bar.
00:47:07
Speaker
So what, she was heckling some guys playing pool. Maybe she wanted a partner for the evening, as it were. Or? Or they were a bunch of dorks and loud mouth, horrible men that, you know, were narcissistic and thought they were the best things ever. And their dick was as big as that pool cue. And so she was putting them in their place because they hit on her and made an inappropriate comment. Yep. Or she thought it was funny. There could be the Lisa, we'll call that the Lisa option. That's the Lisa option.
00:47:35
Speaker
Yeah, so they also called a waitress from Clemson and she testified that she observed Maureen, quote unquote, acting sleazy and hitting on them men who were just trying to play pool again, to which I say you're at a freaking bar. Why else do you go? Hang out with my boys and just have some beers. Yeah, because like any of those guys, if they were, yeah, no, okay, ma'am, one of those must have been her boyfriend, quite frankly.
00:48:02
Speaker
So the defense next calls a man named Ken to the stand. Ken. He lives with Jeff, so friend, roommate. He described what happened the day of the attack. Ken had spent the entire day with Jeff, during which time the assault took place, he was also with Jeff. Remember, he's one of the ones that came forward earlier. His roommate, how convenient.
00:48:28
Speaker
And he said that while the exact time two o'clock in the morning that Maureen was being assaulted They Ken and Jeff together saw Gary Gary's mom Tammy Jackie Paul Jackie and Paul's kids Mikey be and the neighbor Eddie To which I say Jackie and Paul don't have their kids out at two o'clock in the morning. Probably not. Yep. Nope I'm gonna go with big fat like Patty's his sister. Yeah
00:48:59
Speaker
So all these people took the stand and they all confirmed the testimony that Ken gave that they all saw Jeff and Ken at some point during the timeframe which Maureen was attacked again early morning hours and the neighbor that came over Eddie again the 15 year old was there too when he found out that
00:49:19
Speaker
Jeff got arrested, he called the police, and this is his testimony, he called the police and spoke to Detective Ingalls, who told him that if his testimony wasn't true, he would go to jail, but he just could not tell the truth. Again, what are you doing up at two o'clock in the morning? Hanging out with a grown ass man, and his friend, who's also a grown ass man. So. Unless your parents really don't give a shit what you're doing, and you just get up and go. Yeah, could be. I don't know parenting styles in the 90s. Correct. I know what my parents did in the 90s.
00:49:58
Speaker
So Mike's defense attorney also calls a few witnesses of his own. Since they were tried together, a man named Edward,
00:50:07
Speaker
who was not Eddie, but who did, who was the owner of Eddie's Pizzeria. Awesome. But also not Eddie. So that could just be anyone in Eddie to the P that owns Eddie's Pizzeria. That's right. It's just going to be Eddie P. Eddie's Pizzeria is where Mike worked. And on the day of the incident, Mike worked from 11 to 2 a.m., specifically 1 58 a.m., according to his time card.
00:50:34
Speaker
This time card had to be initialed by the manager whose name was Brian. Never trust Brian. No, Brian took the stand next stating that he was with Mike the entire shift and that Mike was the only delivery driver that night. And if they had 43 pizza orders during the shift, which he backed up with documentation showing each of these orders. Okay.
00:50:55
Speaker
Furthermore, Mike drove him home that night after they clocked out together along with another pizzeria worker named Kathy. So Brian took Brian and Mike took Kathy home and they both went home. So there's no way Mike could do it. It's basically what they're saying. To which I say he's a delivery driver. And you didn't have GPS. How long was he gone? Like they didn't say that that was conveniently left out.
00:51:21
Speaker
So Mike's girlfriend took the stand next, testifying that Mike arrived home that night around three o'clock in the morning. Assault happened at two o'clock in the morning, she was filmed at four o'clock in the morning, still enough time, says I. Together, the defense presents 11 alibi witnesses to the stand. And just to play devil's advocate on this, some of these witnesses did not know Mike, and some of these witnesses did not know Jeff,
00:51:46
Speaker
but they all gave similar alibis, which on the one hand makes them more believable to me, but on the other hand, how 11 people up at two o'clock in the morning? Again, I know I harp on that, but apparently. So the prosecutor makes the statement that while all these stories seem good and match up, they seem to match up a little too closely.
Defense on Inconsistent Alibis
00:52:07
Speaker
Almost as if they were written out and rehearsed before a given.
00:52:11
Speaker
And the defense attorney argued back saying, well, if they were all different, you'd say they were unreliable because they're all too far apart. So we're damned if we do, damned if we don't. Basically. Can I just say something? You always, if I say no, you're going to say it anyway. So I ask. You got arrested.
00:52:27
Speaker
Yes. And you were like, Oh, I was with my sister. Uh-huh. I'd be like, I have the time. I have the things to prove it. Or. No, I mean, like if you weren't actually here. Oh, yeah. I thought you were just saying. I would not just provide an alibi. But how many times do you see people giving false out? That's what I'm saying. Like what people do you want to save somebody like that? Because you're people like that. If you lay down with dogs, you get up with fleas, Lisa. I have never.
00:52:56
Speaker
Ain't only assaulted anyone and tried to get away with it. And you don't hang out with people that ain't only assault people and try to get away with it. Solid point. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. Okay. Okay. I'm sorry. I did not catch what you were throwing just then. Yeah. I was saying. I thought you were calling me. These people are crap and their friends are crap. So crap defends crap is what I'm saying. Yeah. The detective Ingalls was called to the stand next and asked if the van was ever connected with any of the suspects. To which he replied they were never able to recover the van.
00:53:25
Speaker
No. The defense called someone named T. Warren to the stand, who was a neighbor across the street to the transvestite living quarters.
00:53:39
Speaker
Oh, yeah, these unreliable people with two eyes and a mouth. Yeah, actually, all the police were out. Yeah, that guy. So to Warren states that around 2 a.m., she saw a lot of cars, around six of them, a black truck and a white and a van. She saw two white men and four black men.
00:54:00
Speaker
One of them was that transvestite neighbor of hers. Another was a transvestite she saw a lot, but I don't know that one's name. And then she described the van and even gave the name of the driver of the van, which again, this is a freebie. Would you like to know the driver of the van's name?
00:54:18
Speaker
I'm guessing either Eddie or Jeff. We gotta have number three. Nope. Flexis. That's the name. Flexis. She said that she'd seen this van at least seven times before in the neighborhood and also stated unequivocally
00:54:37
Speaker
Two of the white, yep, that's what I meant. Unequivocally, I put I in. Unequivocally, the two of the white men she saw were not Jeff and or Mike. She just- Oh, so wait, wait, wait. All the trannies did it. Is that what she's getting at? That is one of the arguments made because we'll get to it. We'll get to that. Oh my goodness. So she describes one of the white men as having- I know that when I commit a crime, I'm like, I'll just call the cops on myself.
00:55:05
Speaker
Right. Who's going to think it, though? Right. You sly like a fox. No one will believe I did it if I just tell them myself. Oh, yep. I'm going to drive around just for a few minutes. Yep. Make sure she's nice and bloody. Yeah. Make sure Flexis is around to drive the van. All right, guys, I know. So we make light of things because it's dark. All right. Go anyway. She described one of the white men as having glasses, a mustache.
00:55:34
Speaker
And he was wearing a straw hat and a vest, I say at two o'clock in the morning. Sounds like a really cheap wooded Tennessee. Yeah. Yes. She described the house Maureen's body was found in front of as a house girls would regularly come in and out of. She would see about the same 10 girls coming and going all the time, all day, all night. Like a brothel.
00:56:03
Speaker
in a crack house, yeah. Okay, cool. Den of Iniquities, if you will. Ooh. I like that. Yeah, yeah. It's not even time to just pop to my head. She also said that she had seen Maureen at that house so many times in the past month, leading up to the attack. One time she saw, well, actually a couple times, about five of these times, she saw Maureen walking in and out of this house. She didn't even have no shoes on.
00:56:30
Speaker
She also saw her with a little boy, and she described that little boy who did match Maureen Sun's description in her defense. She also saw a yellow pinto dropping- It's not like Jeff didn't know what the kid looked like. Right, again- I'm just saying, all right. She also saw a yellow pinto dropping Maureen off, and the driver would sometimes smack Maureen around when she got out.
00:56:54
Speaker
And she saw Maureen in the van multiple times every other day. So she's lying about that never seen that van thing. Yeah. Because it's obviously the same van. If she saw Maureen in the van once, same van. Yeah. She also stated that near the area, near the area that this house was, the Dinn of Iniquities, was Harper's Bar, which was the place Maureen had been mugged earlier that we talked about. Right. At my point. Yeah. Yeah.
00:57:23
Speaker
So she would often see Maureen walking towards that bar several times. So this woman, just eagle eyes, man, she can. Ethel knows everything. I was just going to say, somebody doesn't have much of a life. Right. So T. Warren, not Ethel, but I like Ethel. Sounds like an old timey name. I like it. So the only thing I will say, because I'm always going to give both sides, it kind of bothers me.
00:57:52
Speaker
is originally T. Warren, Old Eagle Eye of the Inequity Street, was supposed to be a witness for the prosecutors. She was a known busybody, so they figured she'd, you know, see something. But when she got there and told her these things to the prosecution, they said, you know what? Thanks for coming. Bye, sweet cheeks.
00:58:13
Speaker
So she was leaving and as she was leaving, ran into Jeff's mom, who apparently she knows, and she's just telling Jeff's mom what she told them. And Jeff's mom says, hey, park it here. Let's go talk to Jeff's lawyer. And that's the only reason her testimony was in court because she just happened to run into Jeff's mom. Are all the, so I don't like that. I don't either. Not a fan, but you know, crooked attorneys. Oh, shocker. So.
00:58:39
Speaker
For their next witness, Defense wanted to call him a man named Mr. Bocce, who was going to testify that he had done the cocaine with Maureen multiple times. More of a campaign smear. However, the judge ruled it too prejudicial and would not allow this witness to take a stand. Thank you.
Bias and Lifestyles Near Crime Scene
00:59:00
Speaker
In their closing arguments, the defense stated, this is an area and that specific household is one where several transvestites live. Transvestites, deviant backgrounds, strange behavior. This is where she was found with these deviant types of injuries. Oh. That was. Direct quote. Yeah. Wow.
00:59:28
Speaker
Both sides rest their case. The jury goes and deliberates. 12 hours later, they came back with this conclusion. Jeff, guilty of all counts. Mike, guilty on all counts. And so sentencing was scheduled. A sentencing was scheduled. Afterwards, the court, after the court reached this verdict, the judge ordered Macomb County and the Warren Police Department to preserve all evidence for future appeals.
Sentencing Strategy
00:59:57
Speaker
Um, at sentencing, the judge took everything into account and we love a sassy judge. This judge did not want to give Mike or Jeff life in prison. Didn't want to do it, but she don't want to do it because in Michigan, if someone receives a life sentence, they're up for parole every 10 years. So either of these men, if given a life sentence could potentially be paroled on good behavior 10 years into their sentence.
01:00:25
Speaker
However, if they received a numbered sentence like this many years to this many years, they have to serve the full minimum amount of time sentence before parole is ever heard. So this judge
01:00:37
Speaker
Sentenced Jeff to 60 to 90 years, which means a minimum of 60 years in prison, making him 81 before he's eligible for parole. And Mike was sentenced to 50 to 75 years. At the sentencing, Jeff made the statement that he felt bad for Maureen, what she went through, however, he did not do it. And the direct quote from him is, I now know what it feels like to be railroaded, to which I say inappropriate due to injury. Anyway.
01:01:06
Speaker
So ever fast, we're in the 90s and DNA was becoming a pretty big thing that they couldn't find anything. It was a foreign object. No, I get that. Oh, yeah. They were. She was bit a lot. There's got to be saliva saliva. I can't say I would never say that right. Yeah. I don't know. Maybe that's just me. Maybe. But again, Pete.
01:01:30
Speaker
EMT ambulance drivers and ER technicians aren't worried about preserving evidence as much as saving a life when it's that far gone. So who the hell cares if we don't get a saliva sample? We're trying to save her life. Yeah, and that's what's important. OK, yeah, I agree. Jeff is the luckiest man on the world because he has all these people willing to stand by him to alibi him. He also has a family that is there for him, loves him and has his back.
01:02:00
Speaker
So Jeff's family hires a private investigator to figure out what happened. So, because they don't believe Jeff is guilty. So this private investigator, um, goes to the prison and brings a polygraph specialist with him to the prison. They polygraph Jeff and he passed. He wasn't, he wasn't guilty. The witnesses, Jackie and Ken that testified on Jeff's behalf were polygraphed and they also passed.
01:02:27
Speaker
But, you know, that doesn't mean a hill of beans, really. So in the private investigator knows this. He's got to have more than that. All a polygraph is. Is judging your emotion. You know what I mean? If you don't give a shit, you're lying. Yeah. You're not going to register. Correct. So the the private investigator, the private investigator went on and ended up finding a witness by the name of Jerry, who had a had a
01:02:56
Speaker
pretty compelling story to share, if you will. He told the P.I. that he had spoken to Jeff of Ingalls right after the crime, telling him direct quote, I saw four African-American men surrounding Maureen. One kicked her and then they put her in a light colored van. Then Jeff is the one that said this to this dude. Jerry is telling the private investigator that Jeff said that. No, that Jerry saw this and Jerry told he eyewitness this and told Detective Ingalls.
01:03:25
Speaker
And he said that after watching this, he actually heard two of these African-American men bragging about what they did to Maureen and said, I haven't gave Detective Ingalls these two men's
New Witness and Retrial
01:03:36
Speaker
names. So the PI goes to talk to Detective Ingalls and Detective Ingalls said, oh, Jerry said that the whole time he told Detective Ingalls this, Detective Ingalls just basically acted like he was saying nothing. The information was not in any of the police reports. He never contacted Jerry again.
01:03:54
Speaker
PI follows up with Detective Ingalls and Detective Ingalls denies this ever took place and basically says the guy's crazy. Like I would have put that in. I'm a stand up guy. Everybody is. So the PI also approached the second forensic dentist that testified because remember there was the first one then the defense brought theirs in saying they didn't match up. So the prosecution brought a second defense that I said worked with the first one. Um, and
01:04:23
Speaker
This dentist told the PI that originally she could not make the bite impressions match the men's dental impression. And when she told her superior this,
01:04:36
Speaker
The original dentist convinced her that it was a match and said that he had actually sent these impressions out to a very respectable specialist, gave the name, who reviewed the information and confirmed that it was a match. So she needed to state that it was a match basically. And so she did because two respected, two respected specialists in her field that she worked with said it was a match.
01:05:01
Speaker
However, she's thought about it and she wants to recant her testimony and was planning on going to talk to a lawyer anyway. So this is what she tells the PI. The PI also found out that the Warren Police Department destroyed all physical evidence in this case.
01:05:17
Speaker
And even though Jeff's attorneys tried their damnedest to figure out who sent the memo requesting this to be destroyed, that was destroyed too, so they don't know who requested it, but someone specifically requested all physical evidence be destroyed, even though the judge ordered it be preserved. So all this is looking kind of sketch at this point. Jeff's appeal attorney
01:05:45
Speaker
set forth a motion to set aside the conviction based on the fact Detective Ingalls never notified the defense of Jerry's statement. The guy who said he saw the four African American then gave the name of the two because it was exculp exculpulatory evidence which is required to go to the defendant along along with the second forensic dentists recanting their testimony
01:06:10
Speaker
This is enough. An appeal is filed with the Michigan Supreme Court, and on May 15th, 2002, the Michigan Supreme Court reversed its conviction on Jeff and sent down for a new court date to be set for his trial. So we're starting all over at square one. The second trial of Jeff versus Maureen happens and- But I still can't understand it though. Like she is swearing up and down.
01:06:39
Speaker
I mean, you know, I don't want to state the obvious, but I'm gonna. Mm hmm. That black people and white don't look alike. Really look alike. Mm hmm. Isn't that true? So I don't get it like. Well, a little bit more evidence came out in the second trial. OK. It revealed that Colleen, Maureen's 17 year old sister, had been arrested multiple times for prosecution and cocaine possession.
01:07:07
Speaker
A man named Michael Scott took the skits. Blah, wow. You are rocking it tonight. I just want you to know that you're, you're, you're reading it perfectly. I am reading it perfectly. A man named Michael Scott took the stand and he plainly stated that he was a John of Marines.
01:07:27
Speaker
and paid her to have sex with him frequently, also testified that he purchased crack with her and even purchased crack at the house where her body was found in front of. Furthermore, he stated in his testimony that he had pulled up to that house to buy drugs with Marina in the car and she flipped out trying to hide like in the floorboard, just saying they scare me. I'm scared of them. I owe them so much money for drugs. You can't stop here with me.
01:07:55
Speaker
Well, this is the transvestite house. Oh, the den of iniquities. Oh, the den of iniquities.
01:08:13
Speaker
African-American men attacked Maureen, two of them kicker and gave them one kicker and the two men he overheard bragging about what they had done to her. The next testimony called in was a new Edward from the other previously Edwards.
01:08:29
Speaker
who worked at Coney Island near the scene of the crime and identified Maureen as a prostitute who frequently visited Coney Island where he worked and would come to wash her mouth out after being with a john. So don't use the water fountains at Coney Island.
01:08:50
Speaker
Woman named Gloria came and testified that she had seen Maureen prostitute herself multiple times along with a man named David since if you're about to sit here across from me right now and tell me That she fabricated the entire thing because she didn't want to get her drug dealers in trouble This is gonna be an issue. This is all this again smear campaign. This is all Jeff's attorneys. Okay
01:09:17
Speaker
Since the original trial, Maureen actually had been picked up and charged on drug and prostitution charges. So the second trial for Jeff lasted six weeks and after everything, it took the jury two hours to come back with a non guilty verdict. What about Mike? Mike's still in prison. Since the same evidence was used to convict Jeff, had been used to convict Michael Cristini as they were tried together, the prosecutor
01:09:47
Speaker
went to retry Mike as well. He was tried on April 2004, an entire year after Jeff was released and declared not guilty after one hour of deliberation, even though they were exonerated because they were not guilty.
01:10:03
Speaker
Yeah, which really is awesome considering double jeopardy and they can't be tried again. Jeff spent 12 years in prison, wrongfully accused. Mike spent 13 years in prison, wrongfully accused. They obviously filed lawsuits and Jeff filed a lawsuit with anyone involved. The city of Warren, Detective Ingalls bosses basically had to pay Jeff 2.5 million. The county of Macomb had to pay him 150,000 and the first forensic dentist had to pay him 50,000.
01:10:33
Speaker
Mike settled for 1.5 million. I don't think that's enough money for losing 12 years of your life.
Exoneration and Settlements
01:10:40
Speaker
No. It's actually you're not allowed to give that percentage like one in a billion chance. You're not allowed to do that anymore in the court of law for forensic dentistry because they're not like fingerprints. Mm hmm. Because depending on how bad the bite. I mean, yes, teeth are different, but it's all the little grooves and stuff. And you can't that they're just measuring positions of teeth. Basically, sometimes.
01:11:01
Speaker
Anybody that's had braces pretty much going to be I have. Yeah. Furthermore. The and I found this, I was trying to look it up earlier. The prosecutor are the jerk. I've dang it. I've lost it. It's all right. Take your time. Hurry up. Yeah, shut up. What someone involved in the case got brought up on charges for accepting bribes.
01:11:30
Speaker
OK. On the state side. OK. That put these men in jail. There was enough evidence to show conclusively. The cops did a shoddy job. They didn't take any any statements or evidence against what didn't fit the narrative that they were showing. Those men were innocent. More than likely, she did owe her drug dealers money. More than likely, her drug dealers dealt her a beating.
01:11:58
Speaker
And she did not want to testify against them. So two innocent men spent 12 and 13 years in jail for crap. I'm going to play the opposite side of this. 110%. Because I am willing to say what should happen to anybody who could do that to somebody else. But if you're going to stand there and blame somebody else,
01:12:23
Speaker
I think you should. You willingly destroyed two men's lives because of what? Because you were scared of drug dealers. The situation that you chose that you got yourself into couldn't get back out. I'm sorry. I have no sympathy for you. No. And the prosecutor
01:12:46
Speaker
And the punishment needs to fit the crime. So at the very least, she needed to do at least 13 years. It was the prosecutor was brought up on federal charges on this case for taking a bribery and basically making – So it sounds to me like Mr. Engle, was that his name? Engle was the detective. He was the shit show though.
01:13:10
Speaker
Yeah. Someone that dropped the ball originally when somebody came up to him and said that's not even a little bit what happened and didn't look into it. You know what I'm saying? We went over that in the tool episode before this where the tip line
01:13:25
Speaker
Mm-hmm little girl points out a picture in a magazine when he got arrested and said that's the creepy guy that approached me at the store Nobody followed up on it. We don't put him in the same area. Yep. I'm just you know, and so I searched as much as I physically possibly could if anyone knows the answer I'd love to know I could not find any details information or anything about
01:13:51
Speaker
Maureen besides the fact she died at age 46 in 2014. She wasn't brought up for charges on false testimony on perjury. Nothing. Oh, no, man. And then again, I'm gonna sit here and just say like she was done zone. She was lit like completely wrecked. Yeah, but she without a doubt fingered Jeff. I think she knew that she'd die if this is again off the books, my opinion. She knew that her drug dealers would kill her.
01:14:22
Speaker
And everybody knows Jeff's an asshole. He's an easy. They're on again, off again. He does seem a little possessive and does it. And so I think that was a guy's a huge douchebag.
01:14:36
Speaker
Okay. But like, that's like saying, all right, I married this guy. He has, he has beaten the crap out of me. My, our, our entire marriage and he's worthless. Yeah. Okay. Well, our kid died and you're like, Oh, my husband did it. Yeah. Even though he didn't.
01:14:57
Speaker
In fact, he never laid a hand on me. I don't care if you're the worst of the worst. If you didn't do it, you didn't fucking do it. And he should not have spent that much time in prison. Neither should... Was it Mike? Yeah. The other thing that I can see as being a possible motive in this is, you know, drug dealers, nothing's off the table, right?
01:15:21
Speaker
Obviously, look what they did to her. She's got a five year old son. Yep. Who has been seen by T Warren being brought in and out of this crack house. So we're going to do this to you. Open your mouth and your boy gets it. I can see that. And she's got to finger somebody. No, she doesn't. No, she doesn't. Correct. No, she doesn't. She could have been like, I have absolutely no idea what happened. Nope. I had a point two seven four pitches. I don't remember my name.
Doubts on Jeff's Guilt
01:15:51
Speaker
There's a lot of ways she could have gone, but I think Jeff was a problem for her. And let's just make Jeff go away, including his friends. She probably was like scared to death, but still doesn't matter. Just say nobody. I don't remember. That's all. So, yeah, I know I spent this whole episode really talking up the smear campaign and stuff, and it was hard because I knew she was lying. So it disgusted me and really made me mad.
01:16:16
Speaker
There was too much for me to question during your podcast to really make me hate Jeff or Michael, Mike, whatever. Only because there was too much, there was too much happening. Yeah. You know what I mean? I couldn't pick a side at that point. It just kind of felt like, I don't know, things don't really add up 100%. No, they didn't. You know what I mean? Yes.
01:16:35
Speaker
The thing, like when I first heard about this case, good night, this curse, yes, it is a curse, but this case, I was pretty much against Jeff and Mike in them until T. Warren. The fact that she talked to the prosecution, told her story about everything that she'd seen, and they basically said, okay, bye-bye, and literally would not have testified had she not run into Jeff's mom. That told me there, something's wrong.
01:17:05
Speaker
Uh huh. Start talking. How long would really had it had it had taken any actual detective? Yeah. To put it into motion that the that the house that she was found in front of was like a. Yeah, a madhouse. Yeah. Like, you know, what did I would love to know what Tracy saw? Yeah, I'd love to know what he saw, but the I realized something was wrong when T Warren.
Light-hearted Cemetery Story
01:17:31
Speaker
The fact that she was leaving runs into Jeff's mom, and that's the only reason her testimony. No, no. She could describe what the son looked like. Yeah. Like to look out a window, see things that are happening. Yeah, she literally when Frankie and I were in New York, we went are not New York, we're in New Orleans last month. We went to see the the the frickin cemetery that the originals were filmed in because you're a geek. Yeah.
01:17:57
Speaker
And it was closed down and your brother's like, let's climb over the fence. And I looked at him and I said, do you see those houses? There is some nosy neighbor up there just waiting to call the police because we're trespassing and you're too pretty to survive in a New Orleans prison. I can tell you that right now. The Cajun boys will cook you for dinner. No, sir. And actually another couple came up and asked me, do you know if they have operating hours? I said, it's closed. And he was like, man. And Frankie again was like, but we could just hop the fence and he goes,
01:18:23
Speaker
Bro, I can't do time. I know New Orleans prison. And I said, thank you. I keep telling. There's a nosy neighbor with binoculars. Just finger off the send. That's T. Warren, buddy. She's just she ain't got no cable. She ain't got no money for cable. So she's just looking there. There goes Flexus driving that van. Oh, you got a purdy mouth. So, yes.
Frustration with Legal System
01:18:48
Speaker
Anyway, that's my story. Good story.
01:18:51
Speaker
It's not like good at all. No, it was awful, but I was confused a lot. Yeah, mainly because I mispronounced nine out of the ten words I stated. So yeah, took a lot to keep up with it. Reading's hard. Yes. Yes. And I'm trying to like in my mind, the problem is in my mind, I know they're innocent.
01:19:13
Speaker
But I'm trying to make it like they're guilty. And so my mouth doesn't want to do my mouth is like, but they're guilty. So I'm trying to read and play it one way. But my brain is talking to my mouth and I'm moving the whole time because I can argue with myself the whole time.
01:19:30
Speaker
How many times somebody has to rewind something to figure out exactly what I said because all of a sudden I'll say something and I'm super fast. Well, every time I would talk about it being a smear campaign in my head, I'm like that dirty whore lied. But I can't do that yet. So I'm like, this is a battle. Battle. Anyway, like I said, again, I stand for the right. You screwed up. You made mistakes. You did the worst thing possible. And not the worst thing. You know what I mean? Like you
01:19:59
Speaker
You walk the path, you reap the benefit. To just absolutely destroy two people's lives. You tried for four.
01:20:08
Speaker
I'd have had myself arrested just to stay away from the gang. And quite frankly, when you look at the facts under the, you know, they're innocent, it's a highway. Mike's leg legitimately was broken. Jim legitimately drove over him and broke his leg. You think he's going to hop out of a van, grab a woman who's a knee bridge, so she ain't going to go easily and put her back in the van in a three way highway, six lane highway. No one's going to notice it. Listen.
01:20:36
Speaker
Get 11 alibi witnesses hit 11 alibi witnesses and they said I Was trying to play it off like what Hubble yeah, I don't write I stub my toe I can barely move yeah, no I'm with you
01:20:52
Speaker
I'm a whip. But if you look, if you look back at all the things in the original court case, how did 11 alibi witnesses that didn't know each other and didn't know both people, both stated the same thing and they're like, nah, guilty, 12 years in prison. It's actually 60 and 50 years minimum in prison.
01:21:32
Speaker
You're thinking of a four by four inch wide, 12 inch gap in a woman's rectum. And somebody's got to pay for it. These people are here just like the detectives did. They look real guilty. Yep.
01:21:34
Speaker
If Jeff's family hadn't said, nope.
01:21:44
Speaker
And quite frankly, a 15-year-old boy being up at two o'clock in the morning is not that illogical.
Death Penalty Concerns
01:21:49
Speaker
When I was 15, I could stay up to like five o'clock in the morning and be fine. I'm just old as dirt now, so I need to go to bed by eight o'clock. But I still don't see why that many people were up at two o'clock in the morning. It still befuddles my brain. But be that as it may.
01:22:03
Speaker
I don't even remember what two o'clock looks like. I didn't know it happened two times in a day to be honest with you. I thought it stopped once you hit 21 like there's only one two o'clock now. Yeah, there's not a whole lot of awake hours in my life. Yeah, it's mostly just sleeping.
01:22:19
Speaker
Don't love sleepy time pillows. I'm hoping Frankie already has the kid asleep by the time I get home. It's not, but I can dream. They're watching TV. He said she's wording me to death wording. He texted me and said she's wording me to death and I have a headache. I might take the scenic route home, but yeah. Anyway, like mother like daughter. That's my case. Wow. That one kind of took me off guard.
01:22:46
Speaker
I was hoping it would, and I wanted you to be a little bit more upset at the ending because of Otis.
Gratitude and Personal Updates
01:22:52
Speaker
But you weren't. I know. Honestly, kind of like midway through, I kind of figured out that he probably didn't do it. No. So what do you said? If you're fixing to tell me, I was like, just the just the injustice of it. Point of this, though. Yeah. We get to go banter back and forth. See what actually happened. But to play devil's advocate to normal, what if they'd been given the death penalty?
01:23:15
Speaker
I've been furious. It had been like that other case you did where they killed that guy for no frickin' reason. That's why I have a hard time with a death penalty. That's why it's gray. You have to have like on tape. Be all the shadow of a doubt. Like, okay. On tape. I want it on tape. When it's back in like anywhere before DNA was a real life thing. Yeah, yeah.
01:23:32
Speaker
And you couldn't you could know like convict somebody. No, because people are crooked. The cops are crooked. The judgment system is crooked. But if it's 100 percent. Yeah. I want your DNA was found all over her body. You didn't know her. You had nothing to do with it. Yeah. It's you know, obviously. A plus B. Did he have because you guys bumped into each other at Starbucks? Right. Like this is not. Oops. I ran into her. Yeah. Your Siemens inside her in in real life.
01:24:02
Speaker
now and in the area that we're the era that we're in. Yeah, death penalty 100%. Yep. 100% back then. It depends. I have to decay. Really? Like, yeah, they confess. Yeah. Like, I don't feel bad about Bundy. I don't feel about dollar. I don't feel about train. Train boy. Joey already pissed me off. Yeah. That pissed me off. And if you guys haven't seen that or heard that story with with faith, you all got to go back and listen to that.
01:24:32
Speaker
That messed me up. It's the only time I've ever made Lisa cry. Yeah, I get into my feels when it comes to like disabled people and kids. And I was with her after she gave birth, C-section with no pain meds afterwards. So never shed a tear. Yeah, I'm not a tearful person. Doherty cried. I consider that like on the list of accomplishments, life goals. Of course she did. I did. Well, anyway, that's my story for tonight. I really hope you guys enjoyed us. And also thank you super much. Like we've had so many
01:25:01
Speaker
just random follows on Facebook, twisted tales. And it's been it's been awesome because Faith and I went through a stream there. Yeah, we weren't around a whole lot. There's a lot of things going on all at once. No, I'm again.
Random Anecdotes
01:25:15
Speaker
So we do appreciate all the new likes that we got. Yeah, because I haven't even posted that much because I know things have been too much. I slot right now when they canceled two and a half weeks of school. They took away Presidents Day as a vacation for kids. Yeah, which I find was because that's it. Well, you know, they canceled it because it was windy. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know why. I don't see school system gets weird. Yeah. Like, you know, there was a tornado at one point.
01:25:43
Speaker
where Lisa hid in a liquor store with her child full of glass bottles. And to the liquor store with glass bottles. And the glass wall of the building with the glass bottles.
01:26:29
Speaker
Anyway, all right. Well, we're gonna continue to all each other, but y'all don't have to listen to it. So have a good night