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The Role of Shame (feat. Furkhan @Eunoiazen)
275 Plays2 years ago
In EPISODE 54 I am joined again by Furkhan @Eunoiazen, a dad and therapist in training. Furkan and I explore and define SHAME, its impact on us, the difference between guilt and shame, how we cope with it, how we Identify it, and more importantly how we heal from it.
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Transcript
Introduction to Shame
00:00:00
Speaker
Shame thrives on secrecy. So it does hide it. You keep it a secret. The more power it has over you and giving that power away. This is a therapy for dads podcast. I am your host. My name is Travis. I'm a therapist, a dad, a husband here at therapy for dads. We provide content around the integration of holistic mental health, well-researched evidence-based education and parenthood. Welcome.
00:00:31
Speaker
Well, welcome everybody to the therapy for dads podcast. Welcome back. Whether you're listening in the morning, afternoon, evening, or some time. If you're awake with your young baby, if it's two, three, four AM and you decide to listen to a wonderful podcast called therapy for dads. Welcome.
00:00:46
Speaker
And I would like to welcome back a guest who has been on the show before.
Defining and Understanding Shame
00:00:51
Speaker
He is a return guest, a fellow therapist, counselor, friend for a can. He's coming back and I'm excited to have him on again and to talk about, well, this topic that we've been kind of tossing this idea back and forth for a few months now, I think, right? I think it's been a few months.
00:01:10
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And it's on, you know, a big topic that we're gonna, this is not gonna be an exhaustive conversation, but I think it's a good starting conversation with a lot of good information. You know, we've done a lot of research on this. We've spent time. We've had also just kind of experience personally with this topic.
00:01:29
Speaker
with ourselves as well as with clients we've worked with, maybe even family and friends that we've maybe sensed this, but it's this topic of shame. So we're going to do our best to kind of have some
00:01:44
Speaker
good dialogue around this, kind of what it is and ways we've seen it shown up in ourselves and maybe in the clients we've worked with, kind of how it impacts us and kind of what to do about it. So let's just jump right in, I guess with shame. We're going to just jump right into the deep end here and see where we land.
Personal Narratives and Impact of Shame
00:02:04
Speaker
So yeah, shame, I guess.
00:02:08
Speaker
Let's just start with the story, huh? What's a good way we can kind of capture the hearts of those listening around shame? Oh, you might. You want to go straight into a story, okay. Yeah, well, or we could define it. What is shame? What is it? What's a working definition of shame so we can kind of know where we're starting with here? It's a tough one to define. I think for me, I don't know if this is an actual definition, but I think for me, it's this feeling
00:02:39
Speaker
of fear, I would say fear and coming across as not worthy and trying to hide that. And that was, it sounds like that might have been your personal, maybe a personal message that you struggled with, like I'm not worthy. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So that might've been your shame narrative or message, like a big one for you.
00:02:59
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I could relate to that similarly, but slightly different and they tend to what I've noticed with shame messages or narratives or soundtracks. I mean, I've used different analogies is that they're, they're similar. They're very similar. They might have a ever so slight difference in language. So the one I struggled with was I'm not enough.
00:03:17
Speaker
Um, which is somewhat, I'm not worthy, right? They're both shame messages, but some ever so slight kind of nuance to them. Right. Since we just talked about some shame messages, what are some of the other common ones that you've heard with the clients you've worked with? Um, besides I'm not worthy. I'm not enough. What are some of the other ones that you've, you've heard?
00:03:35
Speaker
I mean, those are the two most common ones that I've experienced. But I know one that was constant for me was, and I think it still shows up quite a bit is I should know better. So if it's making a mistake, simple error, it's I should know better. And yeah, that that one still comes up quite a bit. Yeah.
00:03:59
Speaker
When that message comes up and maybe we let's kind of do the hypothetical that we buy into it or that we don't even notice that it's there in fact I feel like that's a good place to start is actually we I feel like we often don't even notice its presence It's just there in a way. It's quote-unquote normal to us. We're used to hearing it. We don't question it. It's just is like quote truth
00:04:20
Speaker
So we don't really recognize its pervasiveness, it just kind of is. So when that kind of has its hold on us, how have you seen some of the impact it's had on individuals or on the clients you worked with or even with yourself with that kind of shame messenger or quote unquote truth? How has that played out? Well, I could share a personal story now. Sure. I think for me, and I mentioned to you some of the resources you shared with me and I was going through them, there was a story that
00:04:48
Speaker
felt eerily similar to mine, but growing up, being the eldest, and being from an immigrant family, there was this pressure on me to perform and kind of set an example for my younger siblings. So I remember just
00:05:09
Speaker
specifically and I'm not saying this with any judgment towards my parents. I love them a lot and I know what they were doing. Like I see the value of what they were doing. But I remember coming from school super excited. I think I was in grade eight and I'd gotten the highest mark in math in my entire class. So I was super proud. Like it was almost 100%.
00:05:34
Speaker
And I get home and I'm like, hey, mom, look, I got an A in English, sorry, in math. And she looks at my report and she's like, you got a C in French. And I just, you know, I could still picture myself just
00:05:52
Speaker
kind of like just, you know, having that feeling like we're just like, okay, well, I guess that's what life is, that you just focus on the things you could do better. And I think for me, that became my narrative in terms of, okay, well, it's like, how can I achieve more and more? And I think I also subconsciously put myself in relationships where that was the narrative where
00:06:20
Speaker
I created this scenario where I was always constantly trying to improve. And then my partners always found faults and some something here and there. And, and it would bother me so much. And I would try to like, uh, just bend over backwards to, to fix those things. Right. And, um, it still comes up every now and then, even like simple as yesterday made an Instagram post, had a couple of errors in there and I was just,
00:06:49
Speaker
went through it later, I'm like, geez, like, what are you doing, right? And I had to stop myself and be like, it's just an error. It's just a mistake. It's a human mistake. It shows my human side. So it's all good. And what was that? What was the shame trying to break in there with even yesterday? What was the message he was trying to send you? It was basically like you're, I mean,
00:07:12
Speaker
I'll be honest, the message was like, you're stupid. What do you do? You're stupid. And I just heard that voice and I stopped it. And I think we'll get there probably in the episode. Yeah.
00:07:28
Speaker
It still happens though.
Shame vs Guilt and Origins of Shame
00:07:30
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And I agree. The voice, even for myself, it'll pop up from time to time less than it used to, I would say. And I would say, well, we'll get there, but I think I'm more aware of it now than I was, you know.
00:07:46
Speaker
when I first started recognizing it or being aware which was maybe when I first started therapy so 16 years ago I think is when I first started therapy so that's when I first started becoming aware like more aware of it like oh that's what that is like oh that's shame like having a having a label for it
00:08:03
Speaker
I think I was aware of it before, but I didn't have a label, you know, I think that's, you know, really shame is that kind of, it's always there, but we may not always have a label for it, other than this is just truth, you know, this is just who I am, I'm obviously not enough, or I'm obviously stupid, or I'm obviously not worthy, or I'm worthless, or I'm obviously unlovable, or I'm, right, all those things.
00:08:28
Speaker
that we can label ourselves that. So I'm wondering, how does shame differentiate from guilt? Can we kind of quickly kind of differentiate between the two so we can give the listeners a kind of a way to kind of separate the two between guilt and shame? And we'll kind of focus on healthy guilt today, by the way. There's a whole other topic called unhealthy guilt. We're not going to go there, but kind of healthy guilt versus shame. Can we kind of do a quick example of the difference between the two?
00:08:50
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, and I'll look to you as well for support on this one, but I think guilt is just feeling bad. Well, I don't know. Yeah, feeling bad for something you did and shame I think is more of that internalization of it.
00:09:07
Speaker
Right so guilt is like it's something you did you're not Associating with it per se you're you're not internalizing in it and shame is like no I am this right. I am bad Mmm, where's guilt is like? Oh, I did something bad
00:09:23
Speaker
Right. No, I think that's spot on is that it's a behavior that you can change. I did something or I didn't do something that you can still feel like a lack of doing an action. And then shame is, well, no, I am this thing. Like I'm not enough or I am stupid or I'm worthless or I'm bad, right? It's that negative self-prescription about your whole being versus an action behavior, a thought, something like that.
00:09:52
Speaker
Exactly. Another way to differentiate I heard this said is that guilt is about if we break a legal, moral, or ethical code against someone else or ourselves, whether intentionally or unintentionally. And the purpose of healthy guilt is to essentially identify that we've wronged somebody or ourselves to then take ownership over it and then to repair. That's the intention of healthy guilt is to essentially repair the rift, the damage, the harm.
00:10:20
Speaker
and to bring healing and restoration. Now shame is that it's this kind of subtlety of like, and this could happen too, and often guilt and shame go hand in hand, right? So how do guilt and shame tend to kind of go hand in hand? How have you seen that play out, whether with your clients or with yourself?
00:10:36
Speaker
Yeah, I think for me, I would say it's when it's repeated. You kind of keep doing the same thing over and over. And I would almost say you subconsciously do it, but you're kind of aware. And I think when there's that repeated behavior, as you mentioned, then I could see where shame comes from it.
00:10:58
Speaker
Or in some situations, I think if it's a behavior, you may not label it as such, but then if someone else tells you, oh, you know, again, gives you that, oh, you're bad or you're not worthy because you did this. And then that can also transform the shame, especially if you're impressionable. Yeah. And who tends to be impressionable? Children.
00:11:24
Speaker
Yeah, well, because that's where it starts, right? And what I've heard and what I've read and the research says, at least you could confirm this or not, is that shame actually, it starts before guilt. It's more of like a pre-verbal thing. It's more, an earlier part of development is this sense of shame before guilt. Guilt is kind of like a higher, not as primitive understanding. It's more, oh my gosh, what's the opposite of non-primitive?
00:11:52
Speaker
higher level thinking. I guess I can't think of the word right now. Um, and I've seen it with my clients all the time. It's like, they'll, they'll do the thing, like they'll feel guilty about something, but then their rationale as to why they do it is well, because I'm, I'm, it's because I'm not enough, right? Or I did bad because I'm stupid or right. So they, it's like, it's like a domino. It's like the guilt. And then it's followed by shame and the shame is kind of like,
00:12:17
Speaker
Yeah.
00:12:32
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's, isn't it shame? The top of shoulders? Of guilt, I think, yeah. And I've seen it too with a lot of kids. It's pretty natural for us to do that. And my understanding as to why we do that is because as children, we are developmentally egocentric. That is to say, how our brain development works at a young age is that we're more...
00:12:56
Speaker
Self-focus now, it's not a negative thing. We're more quote-unquote narcissist Narcissistic quote-unquote is because that's just how we view the world is through like we are the reason which is often why you see kids struggling with when parents get divorced or the issues like what's my fault like you see kids blame themselves all the time and
00:13:14
Speaker
Yeah, even though they have nothing to do with it. But it's like to make how their power brains are wired is that we're kind of the center of the universe in a way because we don't have that full development of understanding that we know that we aren't that we're not the cause of everything good bad wrong.
00:13:29
Speaker
And so it developmentally, we kids do that and they internalize it because that's the only thing that they do because conceptually, that's all that makes sense. Right. And so they take on this sense of shame and then it starts to kind of have to repeated experiences. So what are some other sources of shame that you've seen in the clients you worked with or what is the research or data showing some other sources of shame?
00:13:49
Speaker
It could be verbal, it could be nonverbal too. If we're speaking of childhood and children, a lot of the times what I've seen or even experienced myself is you may carry shame for when your parents wouldn't give you enough attention or your caretakers.
00:14:08
Speaker
if they were focused on one sibling more, especially if one sibling needed more at any given point. So it could also be nonverbal in that sense. To your point, right, there's so much, you're so much focused on yourself as a child that you're not able to obviously make sense of what's going on. So you tend to personalize a lot of it.
00:14:30
Speaker
So some of the stuff is explicit, right? In some homes, you know, works with a lot of people and I've heard it where it's very explicit. It's told, it's said to them by parents, by caregivers, teachers, authority figures, where it's very much clearly said like,
00:14:49
Speaker
And then so it's like evident, well, obviously if these people are telling me this, it must be true. And I've also heard the more implied messages where it's not said but perceived. And then there's cultural factors as well, right? Social factors. Yeah. What are some cultural factors that you've noticed or seen?
00:15:11
Speaker
Depending on the culture, I mean, for myself, there was a lot of shame around failure, around religion. Yeah, it's failure religion for sure. And then social factors too, whether you're a boy or a girl growing up in society, there's other sources of shame that come with that. You know, for example, boys can't cry.
00:15:38
Speaker
And a lot of shames around that if you do cry, right? Exactly. So then the tendency is to hide it. So I'm sure we'll get into how people do that with shame. But yeah, there's many factors, right? And again, going back to being a child, you're so impressionable. You obviously don't know how to interpret some of these things or make sense of them yourself. Like, you know, you're not thinking with a rational brain.
00:16:05
Speaker
You haven't had that development yet, so you just take a lot of things that face value.
00:16:10
Speaker
Yeah. And some of the other sources are saying too, going back to the implied or implicit, implicit, explicit is, I think we could all agree that yeah, those homes where there's like overt, explicit verbal abuse or things like that, that kids can internalize it. And by the way, not all kids, just because you come from a home like that doesn't mean some kids are very resilient and very able to recognize that lie and be to move on from it. But I'd say more often than not, of course, you'd see that.
00:16:37
Speaker
Now, I'm going to ask an obvious question just to kind of give the audience this answer, too, to use. Hey, in a home where there maybe is, let's say, loving, attentive parents, can a child still develop a sense of shame? I believe so 100%. It's like trauma, right? It's very subjective. You can have all the right conditions and then maybe it's the smallest thing that said,
00:17:00
Speaker
and you carry it or your parents have done a fantastic job and maybe it's people at school, your teachers, could be your siblings, could be family members. And then again, you can go back to cultural and social factors, right? You may get something from outside your home.
00:17:17
Speaker
Mmm. Yeah, yeah. It's good to differentiate and to say that because you're right that there's a lot of factors and sources.
Coping Mechanisms and Effects of Shame
00:17:25
Speaker
It's not just parents, although that's a big one. What is kind of the home environment. But then you could have very loving, attentive parents and some kid in your class says something for whatever reason for you that just zings you and like sticks with you or a teacher or like a coach or cultural things or expectations.
00:17:43
Speaker
And sometimes it's unintentional byproduct or I like the example you gave of you might have had a sibling who needed more attention from your parents. And maybe you had some amazing parents but because your brother or sister might have needed more for whatever reason.
00:17:59
Speaker
Sometimes a kid, not always, but can internalize, well, they're, you know, I'm loved less or I'm less than, because obviously, you know, parents, you know, they're paying attention to Timmy or Susie, what, there must be something wrong with me, right? And so then we get into have that internalization. And so what are some ways that you have seen people cope with the shame narratives and messages?
00:18:23
Speaker
Well, I think some of the ones that will ring true for a lot of people are perfectionism, avoidance. I mean, a good example of that is trying to stay busy creating work. Yeah. And secrets, secrets don't help, but people tend to, you know, keep secrets. So, so that's another one. You're really hiding this vulnerable aspect of yourself.
00:18:48
Speaker
because the fear of abandonment or rejection or whatever it is that you're you're worried about so you tend to
00:18:55
Speaker
take on these behaviors, but perfectionism, for example, are you really gonna perfect everything? You're gonna constantly chase it, right? And that's where that shame cycle comes in and spirals out of control. And so what I'm hearing is some of those ways of coping, like perfectionism, being busy, making work. What it sounds like is trying to kind of deal with that shame, trying to, you know, i.e. cope, like I'm trying to cope with it.
00:19:22
Speaker
But what tends to happen with that form of coping with shame, like that kind of creating more work or being busy or perfectionism? Does it really answer or solve that sense of inadequacy? Or does it just kind of lead a more empty hole in trying to shove more in there, so to speak? Yeah, I don't think it solves it, unfortunately. Or fortunately, I guess if it doesn't solve it, then maybe that's a sign.
00:19:48
Speaker
that needs to be dealt with. But yeah, it makes it worse. Like, for example, earlier I said, I realized I made a mistake in this post. The perfectionist in me kicked in. And had I listened, I probably would have done other things like I would have gone and deleted it, rewrote it. But I would have created all this extra stress for myself for really nothing. And the message I would have kept telling myself is all the messages I've already shared.
00:20:18
Speaker
But yeah, it doesn't solve it because you're going to continue to go down this spiral, like I said, and then you are going to fail. And then you're going to create this whole narrative around you.
00:20:33
Speaker
and carry it around for a really long time, for days, sometimes too, right? Or really your whole life until it quiets down. One way I, because my message was I'm not enough, as I think I mentioned this earlier, right? So a lot of ways I tried to fix that was by performance and excelling in getting awards or certificates or things to prove that I'm,
00:20:57
Speaker
I'm enough. Like if I do this then, then I'll be enough. If I do this, then I'll be enough. Which really that becomes an endless cycle because it's never enough no matter what you do. And obviously I realize this my own therapy and realize the kind of insanity of it all that it is an endless cycle because there's always something more I can do.
00:21:14
Speaker
There's always something. It's never going to stop like perfectionism. There's always something more. And that's the lies that it keeps you trapped in fear, as you mentioned earlier. And the fear really is isolative. It keeps you not open to being authentic to people because of...
00:21:32
Speaker
What I hear when I do the following people's thoughts or my clients going down through their thoughts as they get darker and darker and darker often, it's like, well, if they know me, they'll know I'm a failure and then they really want to be with me. Or if they really know me, they'll realize I'm not enough or they'll know that I'm not perfect or I'm not.
00:21:51
Speaker
And therefore then I'll be alone and rejected and no one want to be with me. And that's the shame lie, right? Well, don't tell people because if they know. And so what we do is we kind of suffer in silence in our own little head of trying to like perfect a post or get every degree I possibly can or make 10 figures. And then if that's enough, have 12 figures or I need seven cars or I need all these homes or I need this. And everything we do is trying to fix that, but we never are honest with it.
00:22:19
Speaker
because we're bound by fear by this narrative. And that narrative says, well, if people know this, and a big impact it has is definitely relational between you and your friends, your partner, your family, keeps you isolated, but then it keeps you tired too, by trying to prove yourself to yourself and to everybody around
The Role of the Inner Critic and Challenging Shame
00:22:37
Speaker
you. It's exhausting. Yeah. Yeah. And like I said earlier, you know, shame thrives on secrecy. So it does hide it. You keep it a secret.
00:22:49
Speaker
the more power it has over you and giving that power away. And like I said, you're carrying this burden around all the time because you're trying to be someone you're not.
00:23:03
Speaker
Yeah. And for the flip of a second, what purpose do you think shame serves as a positive? I know it sounds weird to ask that question, but if we look at it from shame as serving a purpose and maybe a function, is there a positive function it serves? Absolutely. I mean, you know, it's the whole idea of the inner critic in some of the work we were kind of reviewing, but there is a purpose, I believe.
00:23:32
Speaker
I mean, for me, if I look at it, when I got that message as a child that you should know better or you can do better, however you frame it, I made that my focus in life. Now, I took it too far at times, but in a healthy fashion, when I was aware of it, it did drive me to
00:23:54
Speaker
you know, do things at a certain level and hold myself accountable. But at times it got too much when I let that inner critic take over and run my life. But it's good to have that voice every now and then to kind of point out things that you may need to pay attention to.
00:24:12
Speaker
You could highlight some things you need to pay attention to. Something else I think I've seen is in a way it serves as maybe a pseudo protection. Or a perceived protection. Going back to the idea of people really know this about me, then they will reject me. So in a way, it serves as a protection of finding out that answer, even though it's rarely true. Because often what we find is when people become vulnerable within safe relationships, those people that they fear will reject them actually don't.
00:24:42
Speaker
Say I get safe relationships and you know Podcasts are on relationships and safe ones and not safe ones, but Authentic people and and it's funny when I asked a question when I say hey Tim if it's a client I'm working with a Tim if your buddy John came to you and said these things, right? What would you say to John and? instinctually without even thinking 99% of people without even
00:25:06
Speaker
Like if your John says, I'm an idiot. I'm not worthy on that enough. I failed like, you know, all this stuff that we tell ourselves, you know, he immediately goes without even split seconds. Like, no, you're not. You're fine. It doesn't matter about that test. You're okay. It doesn't mean you're not enough. You totally have value. It's like we have this intrinsic knowing of other people that it's not true for them.
00:25:27
Speaker
But then when it comes to themselves, it's like, I'm the one special person. And I always do this trick with them. I do it with a friend technique. It's like, well, imagine your friend, they say, of course not. I'm like, well, why do you think that about you? And then they have this long pause often. It's like, well, because. And it's like the weakest, there's like no evidence. It's just the weakest answer. And it makes them think, you're like, well, because it's me. I'm like, well, why you?
00:25:57
Speaker
Right. Right. Yeah. The other thing I ask clients is, do you know if that's true? If that's a fact, right? Like, do you know this person is going to reject you? And they're like, well, no, I don't know for sure. Well, then, you know, what's the worst case scenario? You've already figured it out. So, right. And I think it's, it's an kind of a way of exposure therapy, like go, you know, face your fear in a sense. But
00:26:25
Speaker
Once you kind of reframe it in that sense that you don't know this for a fact, you have how much evidence do you have? A lot of people are able to get wrapped their head around, okay, well, I'm doing this and saying this or feeling this because of this one situation from the past, and then it all starts to unravel, right? And then you can identify the source of the shame for them.
00:26:51
Speaker
Yeah, I'm wondering too. I remember one in Brene Brown's book, Daring Greatly, which I know you've read, it talks about some distinction between men and women in her research, right? It talked about a difference you saw. And this is general, and she even said this is generalizing. It's not every man, every woman, but she found
00:27:09
Speaker
a unique theme and difference between generally men and generally women when it came to how they experience and how shame manifests it or how it's how they struggled with it. Can you kind of quickly speak to that if you're if you remember if not I could I think I remember but yeah I mean I don't remember the whole list but I think for men it was really around
00:27:34
Speaker
specific things, being the provider, being responsible in the sense like taking care of the family and the home. Those, I think gender kind of roles that we have in society specifically, and for women it's slightly different, right? It's around sexuality and body image. So there's those sources of shame that come up for women.
00:28:01
Speaker
Uh, those are some of the ones I can remember from the list. I don't know if you know, I think those are what I remember too is like, yeah, a lot of men was like a lot of their job, you know, or their paycheck. Right. Um, it was a lot of performance stuff. Um, and then women was more of like the image and how they appeared and how they saw themselves in the society. And so that was interesting in her research and she did, what was it? 10 years, right? It was 10 years of.
00:28:26
Speaker
Yeah researching people and then you know obviously the book then came out of her research and she's huge now Bernie Brown great book read it if you haven't during greatly it's It's great read She hits a lot of stuff on there and it's all data driven so it was cool to see that in the sense that there is some unique differences between men and women in that and
00:28:44
Speaker
how we address that and I could relate to that like, oh yeah, it was totally about
Isolation and Healing from Shame
00:28:47
Speaker
my performance. It was all about performance. It was for sure all about that. And I was like, oh yeah, this is exactly it. You know, it's good to see that there's some nuance and then as you mentioned earlier that those different cultural things too can totally throw in a curve ball depending on the cultural background as well and or the family culture too, right? It's on top of that. It's just like, what's your family culture? Because that's a whole other piece and it could look very similar or very different.
00:29:10
Speaker
But all all of it though all the shame whether it's affecting men or women it all really has the same impact Which I think the goal of shame and I heard this in another book I read called the soul of shame like the goal of shame is really to isolate you and to destroy you like really the goal of shame is to to isolate you from other people to not make you vulnerable to keep you afraid and in fear and like this endless cycle of
00:29:35
Speaker
of trying to perfect either your occupation, your body, whatever it is that you're trying to, whatever that thing is, it doesn't stop. And I like in that book too, In the Soul of Shame, he calls it that we all have our own personal shame attendant.
00:29:50
Speaker
I love that imagery in the sense that it's like we have this attendant that knows our every move. It knows our every thought. It knows our good traits. Our not so maybe traits that we like about ourselves. Like it knows every nuance of us. And it knows how to deliver the shame message in a way that we receive it and don't reject it. Like rarely is it just screaming at us. It's very subtle.
00:30:19
Speaker
right it's very like it just kind of floats it in there like it just kind of comes in it's like oh yeah of course that's true it's just like oh here you go it's like Travis it's cuz you're not enough right and you're like and you buy it cuz it knows it knows exactly how to float it to you
00:30:34
Speaker
and almost like the perfect timing to then yeah and you're like well yeah because you just buy into it and that imagery of a shame attendant is like that makes so much sense because it's not like this it's not like banging a drum at you like you're not enough it's like we we we would know it it's we'd be able to call it out like no get out of my house but it's like no it's friendly with us it might even compliment us at times it's like right you know and then it yeah but don't forget they don't remember you don't talk to them don't tell them because
00:31:03
Speaker
if you do remember don't forget remember what happened and it might even pull back some memories of some pain right remember when that happened when you were five remember when you needed your mom and yeah i went to your brother instead or remember when your boyfriend or girlfriend or that teacher it's like remember that yeah
00:31:20
Speaker
And so it takes these things and like that amplifies it right at the right time when we're ready to receive it. And we're like, Oh yeah, you're right. And we kind of sink into it and kind of collapse in fear. Right. I don't know. What are your thoughts on that? What do you think about that imagery? Yeah. I mean, I could definitely agree with it. It reminds me of that kids movie inside out, but yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Another good movie. Yeah. But, uh, I think as you were saying that what was coming up for me was.
00:31:49
Speaker
A lot of our core beliefs, which are mostly the triggers for shame, especially if we have in question those beliefs and carried them from childhood, specifically after certain incidents, those core beliefs, looking at some of the research too, is they create those automatic thoughts we have and those thoughts are there 24-7.
00:32:13
Speaker
and they're just happening. And I think to your point at the right moment, especially if there's a situation that's either happening or about to happen, that message will come in. And I think it's because we're at our most vulnerable. And because we're not able to speak about it openly, we internalize it all and carry that shame around and create this scenario in our heads that is a lot worse than it actually is.
00:32:43
Speaker
Hmm. We don't question these things. And I think partly is we don't know to question them, right? I was never taught to question that stuff in a way, you know, just for sure. It wasn't a class on that. It wasn't like, was it?
00:33:00
Speaker
Especially with these thoughts that go left unchallenged. It's like we just, I don't know, it's a thought. It must be true. Why am I thinking it, right? Or we hear someone's voice, like you said, going back to some of the sources. Like it's that teacher's voice in our head or your dad's voice or your sister or brother's voice. It's like, well, this, you know, just kind of, or our own voice.
00:33:21
Speaker
you know, it kind of comes in and we just believe it all. Like, well, this must be true because why else would I have this thought if it wasn't true? We don't know that we can question it. Some of us do, but I feel like the majority of people that I work with initially don't know that they can challenge their thoughts. It's like they never thought about challenging their thoughts before. It's just like, what do you mean challenge my thoughts? Yeah, I mean, the whole concept sounds pretty bizarre. I could share an experience I had recently of just
00:33:48
Speaker
catching my thoughts in actual moments. So strange. So over the summer, I started reading Eckhart Tolle's book, specifically Power of Now. He talks about just observing our thoughts, being the observer, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And seeing those thoughts just passing by like a cloud. And I remember one day, right around the time when I was reading this book,
00:34:19
Speaker
I started thinking of a situation and then I started creating this whole narrative around it and this whole outcome and conclusion and all of it within seconds and thoughts were just coming like bullets, right? And I took a minute to pause and just see these thoughts, like just visualizing them coming like all around me like a storm. And it was so trippy because I'm like, oh, what's going on? And just being able to observe them and be like, okay,
00:34:48
Speaker
go away. Right? None of this is true. And the fact that I was even so blown away by it and trippy is because I've probably never sat there and observed these thoughts. I've just, because I've become these thoughts, I just believe them as they're coming and I'm just associated with them and internalizing them. I've never really treated them as, Oh, this is just,
00:35:15
Speaker
information that's being sourced. Yeah. And I think the same goes for feelings too, right? We could just, I feel this way therefore it must be true. Like I have a feeling just like I have a thought and it's like they're all storming around us and this just must be true. And now for a short break.
00:35:37
Speaker
So if you're looking for ways to support the show and my YouTube channel, head on over to buy me a copy.com forward slash therapy for dads. There you can make a one time donation or join the monthly subscription service to support all that I'm doing at the intersection of fatherhood and mental health.
00:35:54
Speaker
and all the proceeds go right back into all the work that I'm doing, into production, and to continue to grow the show to bring on new guests. So again, head on over to buymeacoffee.com forward slash therapy for dads. Thanks, and let's get back to the show.
00:36:09
Speaker
I think this is a natural segue into this next part. What do we do now? How do we heal from this? I think the first thing I would say, at least when I'm working with my clients, is first helping them identify what their narrative is. Is it, you know, is it, I'm not enough, I'm worthless, I'm unlovable, you know, whatever that, whatever their unique
00:36:31
Speaker
message that hits them that they're like, Oh, that's it. That's the one that I always struggle with. You know, that's the thing beginning to observe when that thought arises or when it's present. And I like that you said that it's like just learning to observe that I don't have to believe every thought, but I could just.
00:36:48
Speaker
These are just thoughts or like the clouds floating blind. It's like it's just a thought, you know And I don't have to be attached to every single thought is truth, but I can challenge them But if you don't know that like you kind of you aren't stuck every thought just takes you It's like takes you for a ride every feeling takes you for a ride. So I first start by helping them What is their narrative like at least for what I do is what's what's their message? Mm-hmm or messages and they might have a couple but they usually have like one or two That's like usually one that's like
00:37:13
Speaker
that really hits them it's like oh yeah that's it I'm not enough or I'm worthless or I'm not worthy or I'm flawed or I'm unlovable or I'm broken I'm whatever yeah I'm not important right and then I say okay what where do you notice in your body when that comes like when that when shame is present when your attendance present what do you notice in your body so I help them identify
00:37:38
Speaker
the sensation of the brain. And then maybe are any emotions present to like any particular feelings, often, I think, I don't know, sadness, sometimes anxiety or worry, fear is huge. I've seen a lot of anger with people. Yeah, anger. Yeah, yeah.
00:37:54
Speaker
So then I say, when you have those feelings or those thoughts or the body, just, just notice it. Don't fix it yet. Just, just like call it out. Like, oh, there's shame. Oh, that's that feeling. Oh, that's that, that's that body sensation. Oh, that's that thought. Just, oh, there it is. Almost like I say like shine a flashlight on it or another imagery I give is imagine it's a tape playing like a cassette tape and you're going and turning off the tape. It's, I'm like, it's going to start again. It's like a creepy ghost cassette player. It's going to play itself again.
00:38:22
Speaker
But like imagine you're going over and like, oh, stop. Stop it. Like every time or label it, do something where you're pointing it out over and over and over again. And I tell them, you may do this within a week, easily, a couple hundred times, probably. And if you do, don't be surprised. In fact, that's a good thing. Like don't think the more you catch it, the worse you are.
00:38:48
Speaker
Cause sometimes they get this, oh crap, I'm not bad. I'm like, no, if you catch it all, that's a good thing. That means you're noticing it. You're aware of it's like talent in you. Like it's tentacle that it has you. It's like, just pay it, just call it out. That's a, that's a big step I do. What's, what's a way you start to help people initially when they start to identify their shame narrative? Well, I think it's very similar helping them identify. And I think that's what worked for me too, but identify
00:39:17
Speaker
the message of shame that people carry around, like you said, and trying to even understand where it came from.
00:39:26
Speaker
right? Like we've discussed earlier, it can come from our parental figures. And, and then we just just hang on to it, never question it. And a lot of the times I'm amazed because well, I shouldn't be because that's how I experienced it too. But it's just how people just get blown away when they realize the first time they internalize that message and where it came from. And
00:39:54
Speaker
whose voice it was and how they've just kept that with them their whole lives. Yeah, I like that. So getting to the root is another way you do it. Like, how deep is this root? Like, where to recognize the shame message beginning? I think that's a good thing, too, is recognizing in the present, which you have to first recognize in the present, you first have to be able to see them.
00:40:17
Speaker
Same thing with shame. You first have to be able to observe that it's present, and then you can start to question, where is the root of this message? And there might be multiple branches of the root system. Sometimes root systems are quite deep and quite pervasive, and some people it's quite, I guess, a little simpler. But more often than not, I find that there's multiple root systems in this, and we kind of have to deal or talk through a process or heal from it.
00:40:45
Speaker
some of these, um, some of these messages, right? Yeah, for sure. You know, so I think it's like observing, it's there and starting to look
Vulnerability and Resilience
00:40:53
Speaker
at the root cause. Like where, you know, where's it coming from? Um, what is, what are some other ways we can fight the shame? What are some other ways we can address it?
00:41:01
Speaker
The hardest one I find for a lot of people is being vulnerable and putting it on the table. If you're worried about getting rejected, just putting it out there. You have to be able to have that relationship with people. You can't just be vulnerable with everyone and trust them.
00:41:21
Speaker
in that sense. But if you have close people in your life and you know you can trust them with your emotions, it's putting it out there and giving them a chance to also see that side of you and tell you that maybe it's not going to be that way. So I think that helps, right? And to your point, as you said, with your client, or if your client were given that scenario of their friend, they would immediately respond with compassion and empathy.
00:41:51
Speaker
and support so i think a lot of people respond that way if you're able to share that vulnerability yeah well and i actually have some notes up from brene brown's book you know kind of reviewing what we talked about and she talks about a few things right that she calls it the four elements of shame resilience
00:42:10
Speaker
I don't know if you remember that. And, you know, she said there's four things you do. One is, which is actually funny, what we talked about, one is you recognize its shame and its triggers. Like, what's the biography and biology of it? Like, what's the root cause? What is it? So starting with that, and then moving to practicing critical awareness, like what, like reality checking the messages, kind of like, where is this, is this thought even true? Like,
00:42:33
Speaker
If I, you know, which, which in turn, um, you know, it's like that friend met like that friend technique. Like if your friend, would you, would you be critical of your friends messages? Well, yeah, you would, of course you would be, you'd be like, that's not true, dude. Like you're not not enough because you didn't get this job promotion. Like I still, I can't brush you. My friend, like I'm not going to go anywhere. But like the lie is that we, in a way we'll, we'll sometimes reality check our friends messages.
00:42:57
Speaker
but we forget to check ours. It's like, we got to check our messages, like what it is. And then reaching out, what you said is change happens in vulnerable and in relationship, not in isolation. So it's like reaching out to friends, like a friend would reach out to you. It's like, you reach out to someone you trust to share this, to get it out, to not keep it, going back to what you said earlier too, not keeping the narrative hidden because shame builds in secrecy. So we share that vulnerability, which is obviously risky because it's going right up against the fear.
00:43:26
Speaker
But what you find is with those safe people is that, wow, it's out there and they didn't reject me. They didn't make fun of me. Whatever the worst I thought would happen didn't happen. So it starts to kind of break the spell of the magic, whatever you want to call it. And it's that reaching, it's not an isolation. It's always through vulnerable relationships. It's never on your own. It's always in relationship.
00:43:51
Speaker
And that's some of the themes I saw too, and all the stuff around shame. It's never alone. It's always in relationship because that's where shame lives, is relationally. Therefore, the antidote is relational. Correct, correct. And I mean, most of the time the shame is based on...
00:44:07
Speaker
relationships too, right? It's people around us that we're worried about. Totally. Whether intentional or unintentional. Like you said, we could have very loving parents that never intended this, that were actually really good, but for whatever reason we had a perception and we internalized something and that became it. And actually we're very healing in relationships when you share it with people.
00:44:29
Speaker
Yeah, because you're like when they do when they take that risk, which is very risky to be you know Brene Brown talks about being brave right, you know courage You know dare to be great right courage to face Shame is that we find that there's healing in those relationships that were once bound by fear and by this fear of being known Is that oh actually?
00:44:49
Speaker
I'm now known and I could be free, not bound by fear. And so those are some things that I loved and you know, those are the elements of shame resilience and... There's boundaries too, right? Boundaries, which one? Well, boundaries I would say is another way to be shame resilient. Oh, yeah, yeah. As you're, you know, we're talking about being vulnerable with people and sharing, but sometimes we can't share with people and sometimes
00:45:15
Speaker
There are people who are going to either reinforce these messages that bring shame to us and often setting those boundaries.
00:45:28
Speaker
Yeah, no, yeah, I would agree. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that would be probably what we kind of briefly talked about is recognizing, and that is not always easy, especially if we're doing this for the first time, but it's recognizing those safe relationships versus the ones that cause more harm, which is when boundaries would be protective of, this is actually better for me to do this.
00:45:49
Speaker
Yeah, well any of the thoughts on what we can do anything else you're thinking of of what else can we do to when we when we first recognize what our narrative is when we know what our message is of shame when we start to kind of observe it when we start to reach out when we start to shine the light so to speak and label it and be vulnerable any of the things that you think we can do to keep on healing from it
00:46:12
Speaker
Well, I think, yeah, I mean, a lot of the healing needs to happen within yourself, within ourselves. And it's having compassion for that. Typically, it's that inner child that's been wounded and that's who we're trying to protect.
00:46:28
Speaker
So it's having that awareness and compassion for yourself and recognizing that. That message was, it served a purpose, as you mentioned earlier, to protect us, but it's questioning it and working through it. And I think once you're able to do that,
00:46:49
Speaker
to a certain extent yourself, then you're able to take that risk of being vulnerable around other people, have the courage to set boundaries and say no. So you really need to find that within yourself first and sometimes it's really having that deep dive around figuring out, like we said, where did it come from, but trying to forgive that
00:47:12
Speaker
part of our life, whether it's forgiving other people or ourselves and working through it slowly. As we kind of start to wrap up, what have you found as you've been working on fighting your own narrative of shame and coming and kind of living differently? What have you found on the other end of it as you have kind of where you were versus where you are now? What are some things you've noticed in yourself or relationally, like interpersonally or within yourself?
00:47:39
Speaker
since you've been kind of doing this fight and changing that narrative? Yeah, I'll preface it with I'm still a work in progress, like everyone else. Yes. I think what I've found personally is a deeper sense of peace and comfort within myself because I've been able to remind myself that whatever that message is, I'm not worthy, is not true.
00:48:06
Speaker
And that takes a lot of power just to even say that. And then that's, as I said, allowed me to have the courage to say no to the things that don't serve me from that perspective. And then also being vulnerable with people with no expectations. I think for me, I've come to accept that vulnerability is a gift I'm giving to myself. It has nothing to do with the other person. And if the other person can't receive it,
00:48:36
Speaker
on them. That's not on me. So that's been huge, a huge transformation. And even just, as I said, when I've become aware of these thoughts, and when I'm able to catch them, I'm able to say, okay, you're a thought, you're not true, go away. Or it's like, okay, yeah, you're just trying to tell me something, but I don't really need it right now.
00:49:00
Speaker
It's having that conversation with your inner critic and the thoughts that keep coming in. So you can run from the thoughts either, right? Like I said, the whole idea of staying busy and avoiding it is not helpful either. So you have to face those thoughts and observe them.
00:49:21
Speaker
Yeah. No, you're right. You have to. You can't avoid. In fact, I feel like the more you avoid, the more stuck you get. Yeah. Yeah. The bigger, the bigger the storm. I love what you said. It's like vulnerability is a gift that I give and whether this person receives it or not, it's a gift I'm giving.
00:49:37
Speaker
Well, and I'm giving it to myself as well, right? Absolutely. Yeah, oh, for sure. But it's a gift that is a present for you and them. It's a relational gift. Yep. But whether they accept it or not, it's not up to me to control that. Yeah. And if they don't, I don't have to internalize that shame because I know that me being vulnerable and them, whether they accept it or not, it's not up to me. And it doesn't determine my value.
00:50:04
Speaker
Yeah, they're rejecting a part of themselves. Yes a part of me right there Maybe their own their own shame because they can't accept that part of themselves often often It's more of the they can't accept that part of them so they can't accept it in you. Yeah. Yeah, and what that's allowed for me is immediately the focus now shifts
00:50:25
Speaker
away from me onto the other person. I'm not internalizing it or personalizing it. I'm feeling like compassion for this person that, oh, I want to give this person compassion and space rather than judging them or internalizing it and creating shame for myself.
00:50:44
Speaker
Yeah, I can relate that to living free from shame. And of course, I don't think you're ever done. I just get better at recognizing it. When I was in my early 20s and I was really starting this out to fight it, I was way more stuck in it. It was way more pervasive. And I was doing a lot of things too behaviorally that was feeding into the narrative. In a way, self-fulfilling prophecy. There's definitely things I did that
00:51:11
Speaker
I think fed to the lie and I wasn't aware of it, but then I became aware. I'm like, Oh my gosh, I'm actually what I'm doing is actually making this lie bigger because of what I'm doing. Like my behavior is making this true.
00:51:25
Speaker
And so when I realized that now is that I, like you said, is since coming a long way, gosh, 16 or so years, I'm, you know, late thirties now 38. So 16 or so years of doing practice, which I'm still work in progress, but I've so much better recognizing its voice. I know when it's there, you know, every now and then kind of slips in a little bit, but then I'm like, I, I'm, I'm kind of able to recognize when it's in my system. It's like,
00:51:49
Speaker
uh no get out like i'm way more in tune and i
Presence and Overcoming Shame
00:51:54
Speaker
too agree that it frees me to be more when i'm with another person um whether it's you or my wife or my kids or a client i'm working with or a friend a stranger and again imperfectly i still get stuck in my own stuff but
00:52:16
Speaker
What I found on the positive is that I am more free to be present to the person in front of me because I don't have to prove myself. Exactly. I'm not in my head. No, I'm not trying to find a way to prove my worth of value to this person.
00:52:34
Speaker
I can just be present to the person, because I'm not in my head, I'm present to this conversation, to the relationship. I think before I was so more in my head and trying to prove myself. I used to call it chameleon myself to fit what I want them to see me as, so whether I'm accepted and not rejected. Yeah, well, and it's, I found like just
00:53:02
Speaker
Having that awareness has also helped me when my beliefs or my opinions are challenged because then I don't think it personally and not something as shameful either. I'm able to just, to your point, remain present and be like, okay,
00:53:19
Speaker
You don't have to agree with it, right? I'm not getting worked up or feeling like, again, that shame in my head, that narrative where I'm like, then I try to excessively prove my point or prove myself to be right or just shut down completely. It's like, okay, that's fair. You don't have to agree with me.
00:53:40
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, you're right. Yeah, it's that's another benefit too is you're right. You don't have to The other person you don't need to get other person's approval Or to agree with you to find that value or worth it's like you could just let you They're free to be them and I could just let
Resources and Closing Remarks
00:53:56
Speaker
that go. I don't have to let that affect me negatively I could say okay, just kind of Yeah, that's okay like
00:54:04
Speaker
you know here you go you know i get to leave that there i don't have to own it and personalize it um you know we're coming on the hour i'm wondering just to kind of and again i there's a lot we could probably keep talking about this but just i think we've hit some good points on shame and and
00:54:19
Speaker
It's a big topic, but I think we hit some of the core elements of it. And I'm wondering what are some quick resources you found for those that want to maybe dive a bit deeper than this, you know, an hour that we've talked about is, there's a lot more than you wants. And, but again, I think we did, I think we did a good job. Um, I'm wondering though, what some things you found that were good resources to, to further education if people want to do a deep dive.
00:54:44
Speaker
Yeah, for sure, for sure. I know, like you mentioned, the Brene Brown book, Dare to Lead or Dare to... That's the other one. ...Daring Greatly. Daring Greatly. Dare to Lead is good for leaders who want to do it in the workplace environment.
00:54:59
Speaker
Yeah. So daring greatly. And, uh, I would say her other book, which is probably not well known, but that's where she kind of started talking about shame. And it's the one I came across first is the gifts of imperfection. Yes. And that can be very valuable. Um, and then I think there's another one, uh, Dr. Nicole Lapera, she did how to do the work where she talks a lot about the inner critic and inner child and
00:55:28
Speaker
which all ties into shame. That book is really good because there's a lot of journaling prompts as well. So it really gets you thinking and writing stuff down for me at least really helps because then I'm able to get to the root as we talked about. So yeah, so those would be two really good
00:55:48
Speaker
resources I would share if people are interested in finding out more. Yeah, there's another book too I like. I've read both those. Those are really good. And I've also read the other Brene Brown. There's a few Brene Brown ones for sure. There's another good one for those that are more religious that listen to this podcast that I've also read.
00:56:07
Speaker
Which I think does a good job paralleling religion with neuroscience. It's called The Soul of Shame. He's a neuropsychologist. Oh, I'm sorry. He's a psychiatrist, sorry. But he also parallels religion and religious text. But when I read it, he does a really good job answering the question of shame from a psychiatric perspective as well as a religious perspective. Because in the end, they kind of agree is what he's showing, is that actually they're kind of saying the same thing at the core.
00:56:32
Speaker
And so for those that have a little stronger religious affiliation who are okay with that, I think it's a really good read. He has a really good job. If you're not religious at all, don't read the book. But any other books would be just as good. So I think they're all good, and they all kind of say, you know, they kind of do this. Those who are listening can't see what I'm doing, but my hands are going together. They have some parallel and similarities and some nuanced differences.
00:56:58
Speaker
but they're all really good. And obviously there's some journals you could read too out there, but as far as books, those are the big ones that I've read as well. There's actually not a lot I find, which I find fascinating. There's not a lot of books on this topic, especially for how pervasive it is, I feel like.
00:57:17
Speaker
Yeah, I think a lot of it is buried under psychology and stuff too, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, core beliefs and things. We were talking about internal family systems. So Carl Jung basically, you know, you can derive shame from there in terms of the shadow self. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So if you want to bring Jung, you can. Jung, you can. It's a little more of a heady read, I would say. You could read that. That's a book to read for sure. Have you read his work?
00:57:47
Speaker
I started diving into it, I have previously, but I'm doing another cycle through more in depth now.
00:57:55
Speaker
It's it's it's it's it's thick. It's intense. It's good. But it's like it's definitely it takes you a bit to get through. It's not like a quick read, I would say. I think Brené Brown's book is a good quick. Yeah. Like if you want a quick read, probably read Daring Greatly or The Imperfect Gifts of Imperfection. I feel like that's a little more accessible. And then you can kind of slowly get more difficult and challenging because Jung is great. But it's a
00:58:19
Speaker
It's a readout. It's not, but it's, it's, it's really good if you really want to get heady and, and you know, even that, well, gosh, even philosophers talked about it. I mean, it's, it's kind of sprinkled in a lot of things. I think it's just not labeled a lot. It's just kind of there and a lot of texts. It's just not labeled a shame, but it's, it's there. It's in philosophers. It's in a whole bunch of stuff, but, um, any other closing thoughts for our guests or?
00:58:48
Speaker
Encouraging things. Thank you for this space. Thank you for having me on again. Absolutely. It's good to have you. We'll have to, we'll do it again. I'm sure we'll have some other fun topic, but thanks and thanks to all the listeners. And yeah, please, if you have any questions, obviously reach out to me. You can always follow for a can on his, I'll link his stuff in the description, his website, his Instagram. Just, it'll be in the description. Click on it to find him.
00:59:16
Speaker
Again, you probably recognize him from those who have been listening to the show. He's been on here before and it's always a pleasure talking to you and my friend. Have a good rest of your night, man. You too. Thank you. See ya. Thanks for joining and listening today. Please leave a comment and review the show. Dads are tough, but not tough enough to do this fatherhood thing alone.