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The Perils of Pretty Privilege with Savannah
718 Plays13 hours ago
FDS OG Podcast Queen Savannah makes an appearance to offer her insights on pretty privilege and challenge the narrative. Is it really a privilege? Savannah and Rose discuss lesser-known facets of what pretty privileges signify for both the pretty and the plain.
If you would like to be featured on the show to share your dating or level-up lessons with the community, please shoot us an email at: contact@thefemaledatingstrategy.com
Scrotes be mad and take it out on pretty ladies
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Transcript
Podcast Relaunch and New Direction
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello, Queens, and welcome back to FDS, the meanest female-only podcast on the internet. I'm your host, Rose, returning from a temporary absence, and today we are joined by our most beloved OG founder, Savannah. Savannah, welcome back.
00:00:18
Speaker
Hello, hello, hello. It's lovely to be here, Queens. I was saying to to Rose before we started recording that I didn't realize how much I missed recording until I was getting set up to record this episode.
00:00:30
Speaker
So it's really, really great to be back. I'm really loving the new episodes and the new hosts and the new direction it's going in. so yeah, really glad be back. Thank you joining us again, Savannah. I was saying to you... Thank you for having me. We miss you. I was like, Savannah, are you sure we can't get you like on a semi-regular basis? She's like, let me demur for a little while because life is place be life-ing. and we And that's ultimately, that's why you step back, right? That's why you step back to beginning. So there's no rush, but you are welcome. This like this seat is open to you at any point in time. Like there this is an open invitation. Yes. Thank you.
00:01:04
Speaker
And FDS is always, you know, like I'll always hold a torch and a candle for FDS. So but um I am also really glad that um the new episodes have been taking off well and that Rose and Patricia have just been doing their own thing with it as well. So that's really important. I think the podcast has been going for nearly five years now, which is a really long time. And, you know, whilst the OG host did an excellent job, if I may say so myself, it's good to remember. It's good to have some different perspectives as well and different inputs and ideas. so
00:01:38
Speaker
And you know, yes Savannah, since Patricia and I have begun our new reign, I guess you could say, I've been trying to go back and go through all of the emails from the FDS inbox. um And you know what? i I stumbled across all of the other people who had applied to be new hosts back when you had opened that up. And i was just reading their emails and I was so impressed by the the diversity of women who had reached out. And I can't imagine how you were able to like winnow it all down. But, you know, it made me wonder if we should go back to that well and have more guest hosts coming on and contributing their perspective and offering their insights. Because of course, I mean, Patricia and I have got a lot to say, you know, and hopefully it's worthwhile. But I think it's a fool's errand to think that one doesn't benefit from opening up their ears to others' lives and stories. Yeah.
00:02:33
Speaker
Definitely. And I think that with the way dating, i mean, I don't think the dating landscape has changed, but I think FDS advice is becoming a lot more mainstream than it was, say, three, four years ago. It'll be very interesting to hear from different women just essentially how that's playing out for them, yeah even in their own dating lives or what they've been
Guest Hosts and Diverse Perspectives
00:02:52
Speaker
exposed to. But I always think it's a good idea to get new people on the podcast. I think that can only be a positive thing. Okay, like maybe an ongoing series. Yeah, this absolutely. Okay, so Queens, if you actually applied to be a host and or if you're interested... Even if you didn't. Even if you didn't. If you're interested, today right, if you're interested in being a guest co-host for an episode, would you please reach out to us at... We can drop it in the show notes. So yeah, it's ah it's a great opportunity and it gives you the chance to speak to these fabulous hosts and also to share with the FGS community and the wider world
00:03:28
Speaker
something that is you know near and dear to your heart. And I will say that these that this podcast is is listened to more people than you think. It's not just you know people into FDS. it's It's actually followed by people beyond the FDS realm as well. So you never know where your ideas will end up.
Understanding Pretty Privilege
00:03:47
Speaker
um So let's move on to the reason Savannah is here today is because she had some thoughts on Pretty Privilege. And Savannah, could I have you introduce your thoughts on the matter?
00:03:59
Speaker
Yeah. Pretty Privilege is a, ah think it's been discussed on the podcast in and within FDS community before, I I was recently reflecting at the start of the year, basically I've had a near thirties glow up. I've lost a lot of weight. I've become a lot fitter. And the way that people have responded to me, both men and women has been lot surprising because you do know that it happens, but it's been, it's been quite interesting to say the least. So
00:04:37
Speaker
With pretty privilege, it's often assumed that people who are more conventionally attractive, and use the word conventionally quite heavily, because a lot of beauty standards, they can be quite narrow and they can be quite fixed. And I always say to women and men especially, or just anybody, just because you don't fit the conventional beauty standard, that doesn't mean that you're not attractive.
00:04:59
Speaker
Yeah. not Thus, I digress. The conventional beauty standards and society's reaction to that tends to be the more conventionally attractive you are, the better you are treated. And at a superficial level, I would have to agree with this. So on a superficial level, people tend, at least in my experience, it wasn't that people treated me badly when I was heavier.
00:05:23
Speaker
It's more that I am now more visible to people. So people notice me more. People... go out of their way to talk to me people smile at me and all that stuff yeah and it's easy to and this isn't a nice state experience by the way I think if you ask most people who've lost a significant amount of weight or if they've gone through you know some other kind of you know physical transformation they would say something similar that the way people relate to them changed quite significantly. But I was also thinking about this from a FDS lens, as we often do. And i think a mistake that women can make, or people can make, is assuming that just because you are getting more attention, especially from men, that that is always a good thing.
00:06:13
Speaker
And i would say that is not always a good thing. Um, especially when women are often more subjectified for our looks. So if you look at the stats around things like weight loss surgery, I don't know about the stats around weight loss injections, like Monjara or Zempig, but I wouldn't be surprised if they are similar. But what you'll find is that the biggest recipient of these weight loss measures tend to be women, like more so than men, essentially because society punishes women more for being less conventionally attractive than they do men.
00:06:47
Speaker
yeah Anyway, so I was thinking about this far from an FDS lens in the sense that, you know, we often encourage women to be their best in whatever way you know, shape or form that can look like. But I think that can often come with an assumption that just because you are conventionally attractive or a man finds you attractive, that he's going to treat you better.
00:07:07
Speaker
And that to me is the danger of pretty privilege is assuming that, you know, just because, you know, you are better looking that a man is going to tie that to your intrinsic value.
00:07:21
Speaker
ah I'm really curious. This last point is especially pertinent because I think it's sort of a pernicious, um it's pernicious and pervasive in a way that women often will not acknowledge. It's just how poorly yeah pretty women can be treated. And oftentimes yeah because of that pretty privilege, other women aren't necessarily ready to stick up for her because boo-hoo, she's being treated poorly because she's so pretty, right? Like that's an attitude that's real, right?
00:07:53
Speaker
um And so oftentimes when you might count on your girlfriends or your, or your sisters or family members, your female family members to offer some sympathy, instead you might get met with some derision and some, you know derogatory response instead of really extending the grace that we would to somebody who maybe isn't as pretty.
00:08:11
Speaker
And so when you say this, I'm curious, is there, is this a gradually creeping realization or is there something that really crystallized this for you recently? Yeah.
00:08:22
Speaker
good question to me i've often suppose to some degree i've always like known it i think because i was quite a late bloomer generally speaking um i think i was able or have been able over the years to observe the gap between the idea that if I'm more attractive, that men will treat me better and seeing how my more conventionally attractive friends or even you know more conventionally attractive celebrities end up being treated by men.
Superficial vs. Genuine Attention
00:08:51
Speaker
A lot of them are still treated badly. yeah And i think this is almost sort of the trap, right? So if we accept that we live in a society whereby women are often told that your biggest value is your looks, that you have to look your best, I don't think there is anything necessarily wrong with this advice.
00:09:09
Speaker
But the advice doesn't go far enough in the sense that it doesn't really teach women the difference between attention and quality attention. And i think especially if you teach women from a young age to optimise for their looks and they start getting positive feedback from a lot of men, then that can be quite damaging, especially if they then begin to interact with these men. from quite a young age, they don't really have time to actually observe men and see what they're about. And I've often said, like, this is one of the benefits of being, you know, a so-called ugly duckling, so to speak, is that because I was, I guess, for the most part, i wasn't ignored by men, but I wasn't really seen as, like, a romantic prospect for the longest time. Mm-hmm.
00:09:50
Speaker
I suppose it was a lot easier to actually observe them and see how they act and see just how they treat other women. Whereas I think if you are conventionally attractive and you start getting involved with men thinking that, you know, like a man can find you attractive and not value you. That happens all the time. Like men do that all the time. Like they'll say that a woman,
00:10:10
Speaker
is really attractive, but the way he speaks about her is actually really disgusting and objectifying. And it's clear that he literally just sees her as a body and nothing else. He doesn't, you know, really, you know, value her intrinsically, doesn't respect her.
00:10:25
Speaker
But when you are conventionally attractive women, you may not be p privy to these conversations because these men are never going to tell you that because they just want to sleep with you, if you see what I mean. So in a way, I think, you know, being sort of an ugly duck thing um can sort of,
00:10:44
Speaker
I suppose make you private to these conversations that men have about women that they may not have in front of more conventionally attractive women because they want to sleep with them. And you get to really, really study men and understand what they're actually after. And you very quickly realize that being conventionally attractive as a woman is not going to save you from a man's misogyny.
Beauty's Limitations and Misconceptions
00:11:03
Speaker
okay You know what, this is actually, ah i haven't done enough research into this yet, but I was recently hearing about how there was part of the whole Jeffrey Epstein class and situation was that he ran an airplane called the Lolita Express. Right.
00:11:22
Speaker
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. and one of the individuals who contributed to the to thelita express in the form of like models of young models was a gentleman um who ended up marrying a seventeen year old but she came over when she was seventeen year old as a model from brazil And she was then, after having married the founder of this modeling agency, much older, now that they got a divorce and they're in a bitter custody dispute over their son, he had Trump's ICE deport her.
00:12:00
Speaker
and now she is threatening, i guess, Melania Trump with all of the behind-the-scenes information about the models and like what that whole situation was really about. So this has only recently come to my attention, but I'm sitting here thinking about how You know, this is a woman who is beautiful enough to be a model brought from Brazil, which is such a far, that's such a distance. I don't think people truly understand like how far away Brazil is from American modeling agencies. And to have that kind of beauty and to be brought as a model is already just like an extraordinary circumstance, right? Like she's an extraordinarily beautiful woman.
00:12:38
Speaker
And yet where is her power and where is her protection in her beauty? Right. now that the power of the state's been brought against her, right? Like deported with no recourse to custody of her son in the United States because she's not a citizen. And I think this is sort of like the dirty underbelly that, you know, patriarchy promises that pretty women will have these privileges They will be given, you know, they will be fated and treated better by the man that, you know, ultimately wins her hand, all of this. But what I think a lot of women don't understand is that you're it's a status you're just a status symbol.
00:13:15
Speaker
You're not a one a person to them, right? You are a trophy that they show off to to the men that they actually want to seek approval from, right? They want affirmation from men. And one of the main ways they get it is by having a trophy beauty on their arm.
00:13:32
Speaker
and it's really It's very homoerotic when you think about it. like men so And this is a genuine phenomenon as well. it's not even like but you know Men will pursue women to either date, sleepers, marry, essentially for the approval of other men. Yeah.
00:13:48
Speaker
Yeah. And then the women are, they're often like, they can't understand because they did everything right. Right. They did everything that was told that they should do. Supposedly they won the game, right? They've got the prize. They've got the ring on the finger, put a ring on it. And now all of a sudden they find they're completely alone in a marriage, in a relationship with someone who doesn't truly know or even care to know who they are as a human being.
00:14:12
Speaker
I can't imagine how lonely that must be. ah Especially because, again, patriarchy has taught these women that other women are their competitors. So they often don't have good friendships or good girlfriends to fall back on to try and help sort of unspool or unthread what has happened and why she finds herself in the situation that she's in. um So it's sort of like, it's almost like a double...
00:14:35
Speaker
a double damage in that regard. And again, you don't find a lot of people with empathy for these women because again, they're crying because they're pretty and that's the situation they found themselves in. Do you see like how you you can't win coming or going?
00:14:47
Speaker
Yeah, 100%. And I think, again, so this is, i guess, you know, the paradox of, you know, pretty privilege. And I think the very existence of pretty privilege is almost a trap in and of itself. Because if you are, or if you feel like you are getting, you know, better treatment just because of the way you look, then that can that can definitely lead to potential blind spots as well.
00:15:13
Speaker
um And this is also why i think that, If a woman is conventionally attractive, um then their dating standards, they need to be even higher. I think for all women, like, you know, if you fit the conventional beauty standard or not, that your dating, you know, filters, they need to be even higher. It doesn't, it doesn't change and it doesn't, it doesn't make any dating easier if you are more conventionally attractive. I don't think that's necessarily the case because you may get more interest, but a lot of that is just noise.
00:15:45
Speaker
um i know for the most part I'd argue that it's even more dangerous, to be honest, Savannah, because this is where like the dark triad, this is where the psychopaths and the narcissists and the sociopaths are going to be especially adamant in their pursuit of a beautiful woman. Right.
00:16:00
Speaker
because they know how the game is played. And again, that is the ultimate status symbol. That's who they're going to want. And it doesn't matter what you want. It's what they want. And you might take that, that you might take their pressing their suit as indication of their interest, of their commitment, of like their level of, of seriousness and all of that's true, but it's not for any good reason. Right. And it's very hard to know how do you parse that difference? You know? um i think especially I think pretty women have to be willing to like not just be selective and have higher standards, but like but almost handpick who they actually want and then see if he jumps through the hoops to prove himself as like a decent human being who sees you as a human being as well as a beautiful woman.
00:16:48
Speaker
Right? Right. Because that's a blind spot for men as well. A lot of good men will just be like, why would she ever be interested in me? I'm not even going to try, you know? And if they're a good man, they also won't be trying to friend trap you, right?
00:17:01
Speaker
Well, actually, I do think that... It's, it can be a misconception these men are going to put in so much effort to initially snag the the beautiful woman because I think that one of the things, I mean, men are also insecure, right? Yeah. And this is partly why they pursue certain women is to boost their own image. I mean, not just in front of their friends, but to themselves. Like I've had guys tell me that.
00:17:29
Speaker
They've sort of used like sleeping with a particular kind of like women is like a status symbol for themselves. Like, oh yeah, I got the woman sort of thing. um And in some ways that can also be a trap, especially if you're more conventionally attractive. And this is where pretty privilege can work against you because, know,
00:17:45
Speaker
They can, A, a lot of men are insecure. and And unlike women, you know, let's say, for example, a woman, if she is insecure, we tend to internalise it. But men tend to externalise their insecurity onto other women. And they make it her problem by doing things such as being low effort.
00:18:02
Speaker
being non-committal, essentially being flaky, because then that gives them a sense of control and it allows them to reset the drawing board so that they are in a position of power and in a position of power that, you know, they don't even feel like they have by having a beautiful woman chasing after them, putting up with them, you know, whilst they're stringing them along.
00:18:22
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and there are just so many pitfalls, damn it. There really are. Yeah, it is. And this is sort of why I think that go-up advice can be a bit short-sighted in the sense that, yes...
00:18:38
Speaker
options in quotation marks can increase but more often than not it's just noise and you and i think especially as a woman you do have to be cognizant to that um and understand that being conventionally attractive or even a man finding him attractive or a lot of men finding him attractive can very quickly become a poison chalice.
Invisibility Outside Beauty Standards
00:19:02
Speaker
Now, I'm also going to say a slight prayer for women who don't fit conventional beauty standards, because I think that, you know, whilst we can lament for women who go through pretty privilege, I think it's a completely different ballgame entirely if you are basically invisible.
00:19:19
Speaker
um And when, you know, when I mean invisible, is it isn't like, you know, I suppose it actually is like people like literally look past you, like people just don't just don't even register your existence. like And I think that that problem is a lot more compounded for women than it is for men. Like when a guy says that, for example, a woman can sleep with like anyone she wants, like they are talking about the women who register on their radar.
00:19:46
Speaker
i.e. not women that they, you know, don't think is somewhat attractive. yeah um And also it goes the other way as well. Like I know in the British legal system, when I was working um like heavily in with the police, it was like if a woman was, well, actually this is classic example, right? So um i think there was a study, was it a study or was it anecdotes? I can't remember. but i remember working when the police force and they were basically saying if woman If a victim of sexual violence was too attractive, then she would be told she was basically asking for it if she was raped. and But if she wasn't conventionally attractive, then she would basically be told that she's basically lying and wouldn't be believed. So you're screwed either way.
00:20:29
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, it's it's set up so that you're... Either way, you're not believed. Either way. Exactly. It's either way it's so that they don't have to do anything and so that rape is basically extra legal, right? It's never punished by law. um but it's But in that it's not punished, it's it's unofficially sanctioned, in other words. Exactly. That's so interesting that you got to see that...
00:20:47
Speaker
up close and personal in in the world of law. Cause we all know that. i mean, it's like, we don't know that, but it's, it's one thing to know it and to to have it be known anecdotally and another to like witness it in the halls of quote unquote justice. um You know, this is so interesting Savannah because I like that you bring up, you bring up the pretty privilege and then you bring up also what happens when, when you don't have pretty privilege and when you're invisible to men ah because you're not sexually attractive according to their standards. Um,
00:21:14
Speaker
I think, you know, I wonder if I fall somewhere in the middle because personally, I don't think I'm attractive. I think I'm a very plain looking white woman. And I don't say that like trying to solicit sympathy or or what have you. I just, I think I'm being pretty factual when I'm like, I'm a classic boring white woman from the Midwest, right? But I know that there's something about me or my energy that people respond to.
00:21:44
Speaker
So like, I've never been invisible. I've always had people want to talk to me, want to smile at me, want to invite me out and about. um I think there's some sort of charisma that I have. um And it's kind of hard to say that about yourself because you're like, oh, yeah, I'm so charismatic. No, I don't think that. But but like empirically, the evidence points to something being there, right? Because I'm not a small woman. I'm a very large woman. I'm i'm large and I'm broad. Again, it's the Midwestern like German genes, you know? And so a lot of times um what I've noted is that like men don't like women who are as tall as they are or very tall.
00:22:24
Speaker
um Men don't like when they feel like they can't overpower potential woman that they're dating. The other thing I found is a lot of times when men would be interested in me,
00:22:35
Speaker
from visual cues or what have you, when they would come up to talk to me, i would literally see their face like change as we talked because it was clear that, I mean, dare I say I'm pretty brilliant and I don't suffer fools gladly. And like, it was an absolute turnoff for them that I didn't like follow the script that they were expecting me to follow. And you could like, you could track it in real time on their face. And I, and at first I used to be like really,
00:23:04
Speaker
self-conscious and, you know, like paranoid and like, what's wrong with me and what am I doing? What should I be doing differently? So that, but now I look back on it and I'm kind of like, thank God, honestly, thank God that I had this sort of automatic filter with whatever it was. I couldn't even say with any certainty, I couldn't point out to one thing it was that protected me from so many predatory men, but There was something there that did. And so, so you know what I mean? And so it's a very weird position because it's like, i don't think I have pretty privilege, but I also am not invisible. So maybe there are plenty of listeners, I imagine, who are somewhere in this middle ground as well, um where, you know, genuinely, if if a man is interested in me, I know it typically is for me.
00:23:52
Speaker
You know, um just because it's not like all comers are are are coming after me. It's not like I'm some hottie, but also there's been enough interest where I'm like, okay, there must be something that, you know, does catch the eye or is, you know, attractive in some way. But it's made me... um better able to like not have to put up with really shitty situations. Or if I find myself in a bad relationship, I extricate myself forthwith. And this is in direct contrast to I've, and the reason why I know I'm not pretty or pretty as in the conventional sense, as Savannah has pointed out, like there is you can still be attractive, but when we're talking about conventional good looks,
00:24:32
Speaker
I think we can all agree that there's a particular profile that people fit, right? And I know this because I have always been friends with beautiful women. I mean, I've been friends with all sorts of women and some of them are really beautiful.
00:24:45
Speaker
And I have seen their lives up close and personal and i have seen their relationships. And when I tell you that not only has beauty not done them any favors, in fact, many times it's done them disfavors, but they were too young to understand its power, right?
00:24:59
Speaker
when they were snared and by the time they kind of got older, they were so beaten down by their husband and their relationships that, you know, it would never occur to them that they were beautiful. And yeah, that's the trap.
00:25:10
Speaker
Right. That's the trap. And in in many ways, it's sort of like a quiet tragedy because of course, from the from our, the beginning of our friendship, I'm like, Oh my God, you're so ridiculously good looking. Like you're just so like, i have a sister-in-law who's an absolute J crew model.
00:25:24
Speaker
And I've heard different friends of my brother be like, how, like, she is insanely beautiful. Like I've never seen anyone that good looking in real life. Right. She doesn't think she's anything special whatsoever. And she's married to this dingus of a brother of mine who is always off with his male friends. He's never home. He like got married to her, made sure they had two boys and like disappeared basically.
00:25:50
Speaker
And she doesn't think she has any worth. And she was brought up in a very patriarchal Christian household. And so according to her, she used to stay home and tend the hair and take care of the boys and make sure everything's in order for my brother to like work hard and go, you know, earn his daily bread for the family. But like, he's never there.
00:26:10
Speaker
Even on Christmas, he'll find an excuse to like have to go somewhere else for a couple hours. He can't be home. He's not actually that interested in her. Right. But she is an absolute smoke show. And so that's who he married. That's who he wifed up. Right. And it's amazing because whenever I, I used to be much closer with her before I started to distance myself from that side of the family, because he's just such a misogynist. He absolutely thinks he is superior as a man to all women. um And that's a direct through line from our father, right? And so I've started to distance myself. But back when I was a little closer, she and I had a wonderful relationship and I just loved her. She was so gentle. She was so sweet. She was such a a peaceful and calm person and very thoughtful.
Implications of Beauty Standards on Relationships
00:26:52
Speaker
um And I don't know if he appreciates or even knows any of that about her because I don't actually know if he talks to her, you know, or I think he talks at her is what he does.
00:27:05
Speaker
Um, and so this is like, I've seen this time and time and time again for decades. I've been watching all of my beautiful friends end up with these like absolute heels of men.
00:27:18
Speaker
And by the time they wake up, it's, it's kind of, they think it's too late. It's never too late, but they they feel like they're too invested. the The finances are the way they are. They don't want to have to split custody or have the kids be in a broken household, so to speak. That's how they think of it, right? I don't. I think their kids would be much happier with a mom who is actually happy and fulfilled in her personhood.
00:27:41
Speaker
as opposed to her status as like an appendage, right? As the rib to her husband. um But it's a really tough world out there. And in many ways, I think ah Andrea Dworkin talked about this in her book, Right-Wing Women.
00:27:56
Speaker
She's like, in many ways, they are far less naive than their liberal counterparts because many liberal women are still committed to this sort of naivete around many men and how much they actually hate women.
00:28:11
Speaker
And right-wing women acknowledge that like men hold the power, men have the money strings, men are going to ah always win when it comes to matters of like typically legal cases. And so you find the man who is least objectionable, who you think is going to provide to you the most benefits, material and otherwise, and that's who you hitch your wagon to. And you just do the best you can with that man because it's not you're going to fight any better out there anyway.
00:28:41
Speaker
That's how Dworkin wrote about right-wing women. And that really helped me understand my sister-in-law when I was just like, why does she not leave this absolute asshole of a man? Like, he's such a prick. Why? You know? um And that book really kind of helped open my eyes to like, maybe I'm the one being naive, right?
00:28:58
Speaker
Maybe I'm the one who really doesn't see this situation clearly. And she does. Yeah. And I think that the the story of your sister-in-law is just, you know, case in point that unfortunately being attractive or conventionally attractive is not going to save you from men if you don't have discernment. If anything, it will expose you. Yeah.
00:29:20
Speaker
to their b s a lot more because you'll have more of them coming your way at least i think that when and and for me it's like the women that i know who are less conventionally attractive they you know at least in my personal life you know they tend to have the better partners um in terms of the partners that care about them the partners who actually see them as a person um the partners who don't cheat on them. Like, it tends to be the less conventionally attractive women. And I think that, you know, this is also what wanted to say, that pretty privilege is not all it's cracked up to be. I know that's not always...
00:29:59
Speaker
you know, what people want to hear, but it can be, you know, a real trap if you're not careful. And this is why, because we used to hear people say, well, oh, like all the FGS women, they must be ugly because who needs a dating strategy if we're attractive? I'm like, well, actually, if you think about it, right, the top companies in the world, so Apple, Google, Amazon, Amazon, The Magic Circle Law Firms, they all have the most rigorous recruitment processes.
00:30:23
Speaker
Why? Because they want to attract the best candidates. like i'm sure if they I'm sure they still get thousands, probably millions of applications a year, yeah but actually the better the company, the more recruit... The more vigorous the recruitment process is.
00:30:39
Speaker
Yes, exactly. Yes, exactly. So know the whole idea that if a woman is commercially attractive and she doesn't need a dating strategy is complete, it doesn't make any sense elsewhere because, you know, you know, top quality, you know, top quality people or top quality companies, they always have an extremely rigorous vetting process because they know if they don't, they will let any Tom, Dick and Harry through the door that will just screw up their company or screw up their life.
00:31:06
Speaker
Oh, that's such a great analogy, Savannah. That's so smart. Yeah, you're right. Actually, for that's what that's what I kind of got when I first started joining f FES. I was like, maybe I don't belong here because look I've never been the hot girl, you know, who who guys are after, like left, right and center. Not that I... but again like that the point is we all live among men. They're half of the population. We have to work with them. Oftentimes we we have to depend on them, like, or at least reach out to them when it comes to the care of our parents and our grandparents. Like, you know what I mean? Like they are they are inextricably woven into the, the landscape of all of our lives. We can't escape them. And so,
00:31:43
Speaker
What I ended up reading on FDS was how many women were coming with all of these problems. Like, I've never had a problem dating. I've been a serial monogamist. I've always had men after me. And yet I'm never happy. Why is that? And that's how they would come to FDS, right? And then you would see the gradual realization of like...
00:32:02
Speaker
Oh, it's not because I have a broken picker. It's not because, you know, my judgment is skewed. It's because, you know, I'm in high demand because of my looks, because of X, Y, Z. And I just, you know, didn't realize like how depraved some of these men are, right? They thought better, they thought better of men than they maybe should have. And if anything, like I have a lot of sympathy for those women because, Like, I think a lot of people don't get is like a lot of women are just pure hearted. You know, they want to they want to believe the best in people. They've been taught that I was just reading or or I think it was coming on YouTube, like the good girl syndrome, like fuck being a good girl. But so many of us have been brought up to be like if we're ethical, if we're honest, if, you know, do unto to others as you would have them do unto you. That's how you get fucked over a lot of times. um
00:32:51
Speaker
And as somebody who is always an avowed good girl, like, yeah, I have been... screwed over a lot, but I've also had a lot of blessings and like manna fall from heaven. So maybe my situation isn't, you know, endemic to womanhood as a whole. But again, like these are, these are things we keep hearing from women. And it's like, we have to believe women when they tell us these stories, these are not one-offs.
00:33:14
Speaker
these These are part of a pattern. This is part of a system. And what FDS advocates for is really starting to understand your own self-worth and treating and caring for yourself as the precious, valuable human being that you are.
00:33:30
Speaker
Yes, 100%. And that was actually the crux of what i was going to say is that I think, you know, part of the problem with women who are commensually attractive, especially if they get attention from men at a young age, I would say, you know, from their teens, even early 20s, I would say, yeah is that they start to base their self-worth on what men think of them, which is very fickle, or how much attention they do and don't get. This is why you sometimes see women who are in their late thirty s or...
00:33:57
Speaker
approaching 40s um they can start to feel put out when they stop getting that sort of attention now i do think this is a cultural thing because i know in africa aging is not seen as a bad thing at all like women are very happy to age so i think that also might be a cultural thing as well um that's the summer for another day church but anyway um you definitely need to develop your own sense of self and this is why again it goes back to what was saying if you've been left alone by men growing up you've had a chance to develop yourself you've had a chance to to find your value but like beyond the way you look like you've had a chance to build a career and to develop your hobbies and to really really value yourself beyond what other men think of you Because I do think if you are conventionally attractive from me and you have that attention from a young age and you start to associate male attention with positive things all the time, that can definitely put you on the fast track to being a pick me.
00:34:58
Speaker
Oh, this is so true. And, you know, not just being a pick me. I think that's one of the huge dangers of being a beautiful woman. Also, i think beautiful women are were beautiful girls who are often assaulted and molested from a very young age. I think there's a lot of trauma sexually that a lot of beautiful women have before they even reach their their age of majority.
The Transient Nature of Beauty
00:35:20
Speaker
you know, and so you're dealing with you're dealing with compounded stress and trauma and PTSD and CPSDD and people who didn't believe you or people who think you asked for it or, you know, all of these things that we accuse women of um when you just basically lived in your body, right? You were just existing. um And often predators will, well they know that.
00:35:44
Speaker
They know how society treats women and they rely on that um in their predation. And so I think young, beautiful girls often are especially vulnerable and are especially...
00:35:57
Speaker
i think they're highly, highly exploited for their beauty, even as a young girl, which is such a tragedy. And we're seeing this again with, I can't help but bring this back to the Epstein class, like young girls are closed for a reason, you know, and we're also disposable for a reason because there's never going to be an end of like a beautiful supply of young girls, right? So... By the time you reach the majority, there are so many traumas that you could have undergone and you might have dealt with girlfriends who were frenemies or girls who were just young and jealous and didn't know of all the troubles that you were dealing with and they couldn't understand. And so, you know, you felt alone and alienated and...
00:36:35
Speaker
I just have a lot of sympathy for beautiful women because like ultimately at the end of the day, they're still just a human being under those looks. It's just a normal, regular human being who for whatever reason is treated like they're alien and separate from the rest of the human race for reasons good and ill.
00:36:56
Speaker
And how hard is that from a young age? And I think in a way, i think... the I mean, if we're talking about it in the context of dating and, you know, like men, i think that it's definitely not all it's cracked up to be because beauty is a very finite currency, right? And, you know one of the insidious traps about being deemed conventionally attractive is that the trend can shift away from you at any point.
00:37:23
Speaker
you know People who were deemed conventionally attractive 20 years ago, they may not be deemed conventionally attractive now. And so the power that you think you have is very, very conditional. It's not intrinsic.
00:37:36
Speaker
It's almost like they put you on a pedestal just to essentially be able to dictate when you get knocked off again. Because I'm starting to see now the shifting of beauty standards. And I'm moving away to, i mean, people say that the ozempic face is coming in. I don't think that's what it is. I think we're now seeing a shift towards women, especially being more muscular, you know, having more, you know, shape in terms of muscles. It's not, it isn't like fashionable now to want to be super slim. It's always like going to the gym.
00:38:07
Speaker
okay. Yeah. Do you see why we're going to the gym, you know, being seen lifting heavy weights? And that's all, you know that's all good from a health standpoint, but I can't help but think that in a way it's also another trend that is basically about policing how women should look because if that's...
00:38:23
Speaker
the dominant thing to do, then it's going to influence how people relate to their bodies as well. So, you know, things like, I think now it's really popular, for example, to be doing glute workouts to make your bum bigger in the gym, right? 20 years ago, that was not a thing. I'm just about young enough to remember when, you know, having a big bum was deemed an insult.
00:38:44
Speaker
for a lot of people. Oh, 100%. Like when JLo, when she came onto the scene, people were like offended that she had no problem with having a butt. They were like, oh my God, this is so radical. Like who does she think? And the wild thing is that to me anyway, like again, I'm from an African background. JLo's butt is not big.
00:39:02
Speaker
No, it's not. just I mean, she has a bum, but it's not big. I wouldn't call it a big bum at all. Nope. I have a big bum, as a matter of fact. mean, I've got a big bum as well. All the women in my family have big bums.
00:39:17
Speaker
It's genetics, baby. We can't, what can we do, you know? But like, listen, like what I'm grateful for is that this big bum has let me walk all over the world. I've traveled everywhere. It's always like cushioned me from terrible falls, you know, like it makes sure there's a sledge for my backpack when I'm like backpacking around the globe. You know what i mean? Like I look at it as like,
00:39:37
Speaker
I think it's interesting that you talk about how it's like, now it's a fad to have a... It's always a fad that our bodies... Do you ever notice that there's never there's never any one place where your body is good enough? That's what I come back to when it comes to women.
00:39:49
Speaker
and it's And it's always for women. I mean, like men, the beauty standards for men has always really been either muscular or dad bod, or they just get left alone. That's it, really. Like, there's not... this whole, like, even though, you know, you are seeing, you know, more men being active, there are lots of men personal trainers, but I don't think that aesthetic specifically is being pushed on men. Like, you don't really see things like grow your lats as big as possible or get the biggest arms that you can, being pushed towards men, the way things like, you know, get a flat stomach and a big bum, you know, workout programs are pushed to women. And that, as an aside, that does...
00:40:28
Speaker
It does bother me because there are so many benefits to strength training and to being active for women that have nothing to do with the way they look, but it's all tied to the way people look. So it's almost like, yeah, you should go to the gym get a big bum when it's actually, well, actually no, because the, I mean, obviously that's part of it go the gym, but actually if we take the glutes, for example,
00:40:50
Speaker
The glute muscle is the biggest muscle in the body, right? So if you have strong glutes, that will mean that your lower back is protected, that your abdominals are protected. It makes it easier to just move around because it's a strengthened muscle. But none of that is sold in these guys to tell women how to train. It's all basically about, you you know, make your bum look bigger. And so who are you making your bum look bigger for?
00:41:14
Speaker
Yeah, it's so that you look attractive, right? to So you look attractive to men, basically. That's what it's about. Yeah, i like I like this point so much. And again, like, I just come back to like, who does this benefit? Okay, is it meant to benefit you?
00:41:30
Speaker
Or is the benefit meant to be elsewhere? And if so, like, maybe take a look at why you're doing it. Not saying that you shouldn't do it. Just like, take a look at the reasons why. Because so often we do things without really, we do things because it's what we're supposed to do. Like we're, we have, we're exhausted with how many choices we have. And so having to like interrogate every little thing is not always possible. But I think when it comes to women and beauty standards, like there could, there could never be an end to our interrogation of why we're doing what we're doing because It has been set up to be our judge, jury and executioner as human beings instead of just merely like a reflection of what body we were born into. OK, we're just born into a body.
00:42:11
Speaker
Why do why do we have to assign a moral value to what we are all born into? But only half of the population gets that moral value as assigned. Riddle me this, Batman.
00:42:23
Speaker
You know, so like I would even question the term pretty privilege. Is it really a privilege, especially if you know that people are only treating you a certain way because of the way you look? Like I've been on both sides of the fence, so to speak.
00:42:35
Speaker
I can see. I mean, is it really a privilege if people are treating you nicely because of the way you look? To me, that's not really a good thing. Yeah, absolutely. And i mean, there are lots of like fairy tales too about, you know, beauty and it's in the pitfalls. I think about one thing. Isn't it like Shrek and Fiona, basically? Yeah, dude, exactly. Like yeah that recently came up, wasn't it? Yeah. Yeah.
00:43:02
Speaker
look And look at what Shrek looked like as well. um like Right. And not just what he looked like. Look at how he he was a grump who didn't like people. Like, that's who you want to live and have children with? Like, how miserable are you going to be after 10 or 15 years of somebody who only ever complains and belly aches? Oh, my God.
00:43:20
Speaker
I cannot imagine. But, like, I'm thinking about how when I was traveling around South, when I was living and traveling in South America for a time, I had a person traveling with me who ultimately was the worst frenemy of my life. And you know what, that's a story I should tell at some point. But for today, let's go into the fact that we were in Peru.
00:43:39
Speaker
She was Chilean. And when we were traveling around Peru, you know, I was often able to, I love to haggle. I love to like find good deals. And oftentimes when you come in as an American, even though i was fluent in Spanish, like, listen, you're American.
Personal Reflections on Self-Worth
00:43:52
Speaker
Okay. They're going to charge you more and that's fine. But at the same time I was living there, so I wasn't earning a lot. So I had to learn how to haggle. Like my life depended on it because it kind of did.
00:44:01
Speaker
And one thing that this friend of me really hated was like how much people liked me. And I guess ultimately how likable I was because I remember her saying to me at one point, you know, people are only nice to you because you're an American.
00:44:16
Speaker
They only like you because you're an American. And I thought that was true. i i believed her because why would she say something that wasn't true, right? Like, again, that's sort of the naivete of me at the time. Now that I look back on it, I was like, oh, she was just like frothing with jealousy because she actually was an unlikable person. She was condescending. she She had an heiress. She was a philosopher. So she like thought she was superior to everybody. She had to argue everything to death. She always had to be right. I'm like, oh, no wonder people didn't like her.
00:44:47
Speaker
And she hated that they liked me. And so she had to give me this like, you know, they're just they're just cozying up to you because you're American. Don't think it's because, you know, because of you. They actually like you. um And so thank God I like eventually learned my worth and left her into the dust. But I just think it's really interesting. and Good for you. Thank you. That was actually, that was the first time I picked up a psychology book. We were, by that point we were in like Brazil, we were in Rio and I'd gotten so mad about an argument that we had had. I went and I went to the mall to like cool off because literally they have air conditioning at the mall in Brazil. That's one of the few places where you can get air conditioning. reliably
00:45:25
Speaker
So I went to the mall and there was a bookstore and I walked in and on the front like display of books, there was a book that said 10 signs that someone is a sociopath. And I was like, I have to read this. And I picked it up and I read it all in one go. And I was like, she had like seven or eight of the signs of sociopathy.
00:45:42
Speaker
Oh my God. I was like, no wonder this has been so miserable. Cause I thought I was being a bad friend. I thought like, like the American hegemonic mentality, colonial mentality, but she had all of these things for why I was wrong. Right. I had a colonizer mentality. I was a patriarchal pick me. I mean, she had, not that she was necessarily wrong, but.
00:46:03
Speaker
Why are you traveling with me if I'm so unlikable? Oh, it's because I'm paying for everything? That's interesting. So this book really helped free me, right? this really It really did because it was like, i I could never have imagined that a friend like wasn't actually a friend, but like was somebody who like virulently hated you, but was benefiting from you, which now that I think about it is often what heterosexual relationships are for many women, right?
00:46:31
Speaker
Yes. A man who you but loves what you bring to him. So he will never let you go, but he will also never let you be happy. And I think if you're a beautiful woman, many men like to punish you for being beautiful because they think it's unrighteous.
00:46:45
Speaker
Yes, exactly. And I think that, you know, that's another, that's another axis that isn't actually spoken about. It's the same with a woman who is doing well. So if she is more successful, if she's beautiful, that doesn't, that doesn't necessarily make a man value more. That can actually very quickly turn into resentment on his part.
00:47:04
Speaker
um Especially if they feel like, because again, like men have, insecurities, they know when they're in front of a beautiful woman, they know when a woman is accomplished. And if they feel like they can't stack up, then that definitely plays out. And they often externalize that. Like, look at, I'm not sure if people have been ah following the Lily Allen saga with her ex-husband. Oh yeah, with David Harbour, yes. Look that. That's like case, like, you know, case in point where she basically allowed him to have an open relationship and he still cheated anyway. yeah
00:47:39
Speaker
Yeah. Right. Because he was never because he is clearly somebody who's super insecure. Lily Allen, for all her faults, has always been a fucking she's a rock star. I mean, she's literally a pop star. Right. I think I think she comes from pretty old English money as well. So she's very, very well off. um And she has a good career. She's quite accomplished. yeah She's the darling the house of Chanel. Like, obviously, this woman is, you know, living her best life. And God forbid that be respected.
00:48:09
Speaker
Right. Like, it's it wasn't like he married her when she was a relative unknown. She's been quite famous for decades at this point. um But again, this just goes to show there are so many men who will who will want to, like you say, they'll want to put you on a pedestal so that they can yank you off of it. Right. Because it's a power thing. It's a control thing. And it's a punishment thing. Many men want to punish women for being beautiful and for having all of these what they consider unearned privileges that they will never have. Because ultimately in their hearts, a lot of these men just wish they were women. Yeah.
00:48:42
Speaker
Yeah, and also they want to to also be able to knock a woman down a peg if they feel like she is in a position to reject them, which is why they don't necessarily handle them with care. So this is why like a lot of women fall into the trap of thinking, I'm such a catch, why isn't he treating me well? But that's women projecting their own ideals onto men because...
00:49:05
Speaker
The average woman, if they were in the presence of a guy who was handsome, attractive, um was capable, they would take care of him. They wouldn't seek to exploit or abuse him. But men don't see it that way. They see, some of them, or too many of them, they see a woman's competence as a direct threat to their ego.
00:49:23
Speaker
um And this is why you have to tread carefully, especially if you are a self-proclaimed catcher. Um, yeah because you know, men also recognize, you know, when they were the presence of a catch. So sometimes a man treating you badly, even if you're a catch or rejecting you, it's got nothing to do with you, but everything to do with his own ego and insecurities, because he knows that if he was to actually be fully in the relationship and be honest with himself, then he'd have to reckon with the fact that he's not as good as he thinks he is basically.
00:49:55
Speaker
Exactly right. And you know what, Savannah, to take this one step further, and again, this this is one area that really helped drive this home for me, and I needed therapy in order to see it clearly. um This applies to the fathers and the brothers in your lives as well.
00:50:11
Speaker
There are many, many men in your own family who will absolutely hate and despise your brilliance and your beauty. because they think it's unfair. They think it's, they think you're too big for your britches. I had a father who was always telling me I should be more modest.
00:50:27
Speaker
I was like, about what? He's like, you need to be more modest about, you think you're so smart. You think you're this know-it-all. Well, it guess what? I am fucking brilliant. Oops. Like I didn't realize how smart I actually was for a very long time because he was always trying to make me be smaller and shrink and think lesser of myself because he could not handle having a brilliant young daughter because I was a girl. If I were a boy, it would have been a totally different story. The brothers were treated so differently from the girls. And even from a young age, I was like, I don't get it. Like, this is so unfair. Why do the boys get this and the girls don't? And I would get like, you know, you don't understand. This is for the best. Who do you think you are? La, la, la, la, la.
00:51:08
Speaker
And it took me a really long time. Like one thing that my therapist Paula said was she was like, Rose, you the men in your family can't stand that you have the biggest dick of them all.
00:51:20
Speaker
And I was like, what? She was like, I did not stutter. i absolutely stand by what I said. They cannot stand that you are more of a man than they will ever be.
00:51:32
Speaker
And she meant that in a very positive way. You know, it wasn't like she was denying my own femininity, but she but she what she was is she was presenting to me how they think about it She was using their kind of terms and their kind of framing of the situation to help me understand what I was actually dealing with. Because I couldn't understand why members of my own family wouldn't love me or care about me or support me and like why they would actively undercut me and like,
00:51:58
Speaker
try for my downfall. I couldn't, I couldn't understand it. and its Yeah, there had to be something I was doing wrong to deserve that, right? It's an ego thing. And your dad should be the first person to be championing you and be telling you and, you know, gassing you up and telling you that you can become the president if you want it. Like, they if there's any man in the world that will do that, that should be your dad. That's what my dad did for me.
00:52:20
Speaker
Yeah. um Right. And so this is something that this kind of conversation, it doesn't just apply to the men that you're interested in romantically or who are interested in you. It can, it's, it could be your boss at work. It could be, I had many professors and male teachers who had beef with me and I never had female teachers or professors who ever had beef with me. And I look back and I'm like, oh that's what was going down. That's what, it took me a really long time to understand those dynamics. Because again, if you are somebody who is, who believes the best of others, and I don't think we should stop being that way, but I think we have to temper it with some realism at a certain point. And hopefully FDS is helping you come to those realizations with like grace and with, um,
00:53:05
Speaker
with gentleness because it it can be really hard in the spirit to come to some of these realizations. Yes, agreed. Agreed. What do you think, Savannah? Have we covered most of what we wanted to discuss today?
00:53:16
Speaker
yes I do. I think that was what I wanted to cover regarding pretty privileged because I think it is a complex topic. um But I will say it's a poison chalice. But i just think that being a woman in this society is shit, particularly in dating. But also becoming more attractive is not necessarily going to be the answer to your problems if you unless you also develop ruthless discernment as well.
00:53:44
Speaker
Ruthless discernment. I think we're going to have to title this episode Ruthless Discernment. um Because that's so that's if there's one thing we can have women take away from this discussion, it's like, you cannot be ruthless enough, honestly, in this world. No, you can't.
00:54:00
Speaker
Especially when it comes to men. It's a matter of life or death. They are our number one predators. And so we want you to go forth with trust in yourself and in your own judgment and trust your instincts and continually vetting. Always be vetting.
00:54:16
Speaker
That's the other thing we could be saying. Always be vetting. Even after you're married, I don't care. Keep betting. Always keep betting. And with that, Savannah, I'm so glad you had a suggestion for this episode discussion. I didn't realize just how rich it was going to be. I should have known talking with you would be as scintillating as it is. So I'm really appreciative that you took the time today.
00:54:36
Speaker
Thank you so much. It was great being back. And yes, hopefully I'll do more episodes on other musings that I have in the future. But yeah, thank you so much having me, Rose. And thank you so much for listening to me, Queens.
00:54:48
Speaker
um It's been a pleasure. And we'll talk to you soon. and Take care.