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Momsplaining Love: A Mother’s Day Special
54 Plays6 months ago
The Queens dissect the romantic, cultural and generational norms associated with Mother's Day and what this means for dating.
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Reflections
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome back to the Female Dating Strategy, the meanest female-only podcast on the internet.
00:00:04
Speaker
I'm your host, Diana.
00:00:06
Speaker
And I'm Rose.
00:00:07
Speaker
And before we get into our topic today, Diana, you know what?
00:00:09
Speaker
I didn't bring this up in the pre-show, but I want to bring up to you in real time how fucking psyched I've been about all the guests we've had so far this year.
00:00:18
Speaker
Can you believe it?
00:00:19
Speaker
I know!
00:00:20
Speaker
It's been so great having so many of these guests.
00:00:24
Speaker
I've just been really excited to talk to all of them.
00:00:27
Speaker
They're such wonderful conversationalists and even more important than that, like they're so knowledgeable and they back it up with such wonderful data.
00:00:34
Speaker
Like to me, it almost feels like we're getting these master classes from professors.
00:00:38
Speaker
You know, we literally did with Jane Ward.
00:00:43
Speaker
I think it's so important to just have perspective in general and just to be able to talk to other women who've been in this field for years, who've been studying a lot of the things that we talk about in the forum, in the podcast, in general, I think is just essential.
00:00:58
Speaker
I mean, you know, a lot of the pushback we get from the manosphere in general is that this is an echo chamber.
00:01:04
Speaker
And I think that what we've tried to prove, even with the guests, is there's a variety of people who agree with our teachings, who've had a lifetime of experience.
00:01:12
Speaker
who can share that experience with us.
00:01:13
Speaker
Like, I think that there is a systematic disregard for older women in dating in general, right?
00:01:19
Speaker
Because it's like these people know game and they know how the male mind operates.
00:01:23
Speaker
Like they've dealt with enough men and they've seen every version of man you can imagine in times that were probably way more punitive than the ones that we live in now.
00:01:31
Speaker
And if they're saying the exact same things we're saying, that just means things haven't changed that much.
00:01:36
Speaker
Exactly.
00:01:37
Speaker
I know chamber.
00:01:37
Speaker
That's a rich accusation coming from that world.
00:01:40
Speaker
I know.
00:01:42
Speaker
Like, okay, guys, sure, sure.
00:01:44
Speaker
Insert the gift of Jennifer Lawrence, like with her thumbs up, you know, given this sort of like derisive smile, like, sure, guys, sure.
Listener Engagement and Future Plans
00:01:52
Speaker
But it's so interesting, because like, Diana and I, when we first started out as the hosts, you know, we were trying to get our sea legs under us.
00:01:59
Speaker
And we were trying to get, you know, a flow going and establish our own dialogue.
00:02:02
Speaker
And I think we did a
00:02:03
Speaker
Pretty good job of it, Diana.
00:02:05
Speaker
If I want to grade us, I definitely give us like at least a B+.
00:02:08
Speaker
Yeah, but I will say I have missed it just being the two of us.
00:02:12
Speaker
It's been nice to have everyone, but I have looked forward to just having a you and I conversation.
00:02:17
Speaker
We've got a little spoiled and I'm not sad about it.
00:02:19
Speaker
Yeah.
00:02:20
Speaker
What was interesting was like, okay, so last year was where we first got established.
00:02:23
Speaker
And then like just a few months ago, we were like, listen, we said when we started that we wanted to get some of these guests back on like Lundy, Gale, they've always had great success when they've appeared on FDS.
00:02:33
Speaker
They've said before that they're willing to appear again, like, let's give it a try.
00:02:36
Speaker
But also let's throw out some lures and see who else we can get.
00:02:39
Speaker
And I still am like in awe of how we've hardly gotten any no's.
00:02:43
Speaker
Almost every one to a one has been a yes and an enthusiastic yes.
00:02:48
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
00:02:50
Speaker
That was really surprising to me, too.
00:02:51
Speaker
Because when we decided to do this, we were like, let's just send out as many emails as possible, because obviously, there'll be a few of them that say no.
00:02:57
Speaker
And so we just have to, you know, account for the nose or like the ghostings and then just take who'll say yes.
00:03:02
Speaker
And it turns out, like, for the most part, everybody that we've asked has said yes, you know.
00:03:06
Speaker
Yeah, we actually had an embarrassment of riches because then it was like, oh, shoot.
00:03:10
Speaker
And they all like want to appear in the next week or two.
00:03:12
Speaker
Yeah, we had like these couple of weeks where it was like we were talking to each other every day, but not just to each other.
00:03:17
Speaker
We're like with the guests.
00:03:20
Speaker
Right.
00:03:21
Speaker
It's another side of our conversation that I really enjoy.
00:03:24
Speaker
I enjoy hearing you be an interviewer and a listener to these other individuals.
00:03:28
Speaker
And I like that we're able to like, still have our voice while sort of highlighting the person who is our guest.
00:03:34
Speaker
I think these are all skills that, you know, I'm going to continue to work on.
00:03:37
Speaker
And I'm really happy that, you know, I've gotten to talk to like my idols, Gail Dines and Lundy Bancroft.
00:03:43
Speaker
Jane Ward has now like risen in my estimation even more.
00:03:46
Speaker
Reading her book was one thing, but talking with her is another.
00:03:48
Speaker
She's just a delight.
00:03:49
Speaker
Yeah.
00:03:50
Speaker
Yeah, and I think that it's, you know, we're going to keep improving.
00:03:53
Speaker
I can definitely sense an improvement from our first interview to now and just generally hosting the podcast.
00:03:58
Speaker
I mean, the more you do this, the better you just get at it like you do with anything.
00:04:01
Speaker
It's the 10,000 hours thing.
00:04:02
Speaker
You know, we've been doing this a while.
00:04:04
Speaker
It's just going to get better.
00:04:06
Speaker
But, you know, before we get into today's episode, I do want to tell our listeners, you know, if you've been liking what we've been doing, please, as usual, subscribe to us on Patreon.
00:04:14
Speaker
You know, we could always use the support.
00:04:16
Speaker
We have so many dreams and visions for this podcast and for FDS in general, and we can't do that without you.
00:04:22
Speaker
So definitely support us on Patreon.
00:04:25
Speaker
Follow us on Instagram.
00:04:26
Speaker
Follow us on Reddit.
00:04:27
Speaker
Follow us on, what else are we on?
00:04:29
Speaker
X. I think that's all for now.
00:04:32
Speaker
For now, that's all.
00:04:33
Speaker
For now, that's all.
00:04:33
Speaker
But Diana and I have some ideas for episodes where we actually are going to solicit for our listeners to send in examples of scrotes or of, you know, wonderful men or of scenarios that are just plain confusing.
00:04:45
Speaker
So that we can sort of have real time responses, like sort of like a, an agony aunt kind of style session.
00:04:51
Speaker
Stay tuned for that listeners, but also like what your feedback always matters to us.
00:04:55
Speaker
Yes, we want you to subscribe to Patreon, do what you can to support us, even if it's like $5, you know, buy us a coffee is like that they like to say.
00:05:02
Speaker
But I think more than anything, what I crave and probably Diana too, is like, we want to hear from you.
00:05:07
Speaker
We want to hear your opinions.
00:05:08
Speaker
We want to hear your critiques.
00:05:09
Speaker
We want to hear your suggestions.
00:05:11
Speaker
Like, I don't want to be alone in an echo chamber.
00:05:13
Speaker
I'm doing this in conversation with y'all, which is really my ultimate goals.
00:05:17
Speaker
in a dialogue with you and we want to hear your stories and we want to hear what you have to say about what we do, any topics we could talk about that you think we haven't covered already, guests that you'd like to see us interview because we're always looking for those.
00:05:29
Speaker
And yeah, I mean, you know, you could reach out to us through all of those social media handles.
00:05:34
Speaker
I think on Instagram, it's underscore the female dating strategy.
00:05:38
Speaker
And I think on Twitter, it's femdatstrat.
00:05:41
Speaker
So yeah, reach out to us there and you can get directly in touch with us now.
00:05:45
Speaker
So that's great.
00:05:46
Speaker
You know, we'll be see everything.
00:05:47
Speaker
I share everything with Rose.
00:05:48
Speaker
And Scrotz, this is not for you.
00:05:50
Speaker
Leave us alone.
00:05:51
Speaker
Exactly,
Family Dynamics and Caretaking Roles
00:05:52
Speaker
exactly.
00:05:52
Speaker
So Mother's Day, we thought we'd talk about Mother's Day.
00:05:55
Speaker
Actually, you know what, just goes to show my ignorance.
00:05:58
Speaker
I was like, Diana, do they have Mother's Day over where you live?
00:06:01
Speaker
And she's like, I think it's an international thing.
00:06:03
Speaker
Well, I mean, you know what, I didn't know that either.
00:06:05
Speaker
So I wouldn't call it ignorance.
00:06:06
Speaker
I saw that I was getting advertising for it here.
00:06:08
Speaker
And like, my impression was that Mother's Day, Father's Day, all these days are like different in different countries.
00:06:13
Speaker
But I think the Mother's Day one is universal because I got the advertising for that too.
00:06:18
Speaker
So how do you celebrate Mother's Day in your area?
00:06:21
Speaker
Well, I did.
00:06:22
Speaker
My mom was out of town on Mother's Day.
00:06:24
Speaker
So I was like, OK, Mother's Day, she just wanted me left alone.
00:06:27
Speaker
And that's fine.
00:06:30
Speaker
If I was a mom, I would probably pull the same move.
00:06:32
Speaker
So like when I found out it was Mother's Day, which I think was the 11th of May, she was like not in town.
00:06:37
Speaker
And I was like, OK, well, I guess Mother's Day is I just leave you alone, you know?
00:06:40
Speaker
But I, you know, like I usually I'll take her out to a nice dinner or like I'll call takeout.
00:06:45
Speaker
My mom loves to cook, but I'm like, you know, why don't you take a break or something, you know, like take a day off.
00:06:49
Speaker
I'll order in or we'll go out or I'll get a cake or something.
00:06:52
Speaker
She loves a sweet treat.
00:06:53
Speaker
My mom is a sweet treat lady.
00:06:56
Speaker
that's why I have to be so careful because I used to get her cakes and stuff but now I'm like I literally feel like our roles have reversed where now I feel like she's like the angsty teenager and I'm like the strict mommy and so I have to like slap the sweets out of her hands because she's always with a sweet treat she's always got a sweet treat like it's like crazy to me you know and she's in perfect health but still it's like why tempt the gods you know why test base
00:07:19
Speaker
This is actually something we didn't bring up in the pre-talk, but this is a very good point.
00:07:24
Speaker
The fact that there's a sort of fulcrum upon which the mother-child balance rests.
00:07:29
Speaker
And I think up and through 25, maybe 30, the mother is in the mothering position, but then it slowly tilts the other way.
00:07:37
Speaker
I remember by the end of my mom's life, it's like I'm tucking her into bed.
00:07:42
Speaker
I'm helping her bathe.
00:07:43
Speaker
I'm the one cooking her favorite foods, right?
00:07:46
Speaker
Or I'm the one who's like, okay, that's enough guests for today.
00:07:49
Speaker
Like we're gonna let mom have a nap now.
00:07:52
Speaker
And I just remember I was so tickled, sad, but tickled about the fact that really the whole cycle of life ends up cycling around where if you're lucky, if you're fortunate, and you've got this kind of relationship with your mother, you know, you get to mother her.
00:08:05
Speaker
And that's a really special kind of love.
00:08:07
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
00:08:08
Speaker
I can't say I enjoy it very much, though.
00:08:11
Speaker
I'm not cut out to be a mommy figure.
00:08:13
Speaker
I've realized that from looking after my mom.
00:08:14
Speaker
I'm like, if I had you as a kid, I don't know.
00:08:17
Speaker
I think I would have seriously reconsidered parenting as a whole because you just don't listen.
00:08:22
Speaker
And it's wild because I think she probably said the same thing about me as a teenager.
00:08:25
Speaker
Sure.
00:08:25
Speaker
She's the same.
00:08:26
Speaker
I'm like, I got it from you.
00:08:27
Speaker
Like, you don't listen either, you know?
00:08:29
Speaker
She goes off without her phone, and then she goes off in the sun, and she doesn't wear sunscreen.
00:08:34
Speaker
And then she gets a headache from being out in the sun too long.
00:08:37
Speaker
And I'm like, oh my goodness, like, I have to help you with these common sense things.
00:08:41
Speaker
Why are you making me do this?
00:08:42
Speaker
I'm
00:08:43
Speaker
This is so adorable.
00:08:44
Speaker
It's so cute to hear.
00:08:46
Speaker
And yeah, it's not always enjoyable.
00:08:47
Speaker
That's for darn sure.
00:08:48
Speaker
You know, it was like, I didn't like kicking out my mom's visitors.
00:08:50
Speaker
But like, hello.
00:08:52
Speaker
You know, it's just common sense has to prevail, Diana, as you know, like, we're always over here cheering on common sense and trying to embody it.
00:08:59
Speaker
So
00:08:59
Speaker
That's something that often gets underlooked.
00:09:02
Speaker
With Mother's Day, actually, I had to go to a shipping store like UPS to drop something off for a friend.
00:09:07
Speaker
And it was absolutely packed.
00:09:09
Speaker
And I was like, you know, I almost thought I should come in tomorrow and good friends with the people who work there.
00:09:14
Speaker
And the manager was like, oh, no, no, no, no.
00:09:16
Speaker
She's like, tomorrow, it's going to be an absolute disaster.
00:09:18
Speaker
It's going to be a zoo of everybody trying to
00:09:21
Speaker
mail everything to their mother the day before Mother's Day.
00:09:24
Speaker
And we all know like mail doesn't really go anywhere on Sundays, right?
00:09:27
Speaker
So I'm just like, how dare people it's not like there isn't advertising, but like, you can't even get your gift out to your mother like a couple days in advance.
00:09:36
Speaker
I mean, okay, can I have a public health and safety announcement here for a minute?
00:09:40
Speaker
Yeah, go ahead.
00:09:41
Speaker
This is something my mom taught me and I'm so glad she did.
00:09:44
Speaker
You have to send things so that they get there ahead of time or on time.
00:09:49
Speaker
You don't want to get your birthday card two weeks after the fact.
00:09:52
Speaker
You're still happy to get it, but it doesn't have the same sense of effort and consideration that it does if you actually like get it the day before or the day of.
00:10:00
Speaker
And so if you struggle with this, my friends, because everybody loves getting a card in the mail or a gift in the mail, you cannot convince me that people are like over that.
00:10:08
Speaker
No.
00:10:09
Speaker
So what I do is I have for all my people whose birthdays I save in my phone, I put on the calendar a reminder about their birthday a week ahead of time and then five days ahead of time.
00:10:21
Speaker
So that if I forget the first one by the second one, I'm like, OK, I still have time to like write a little card, get a little gift, get over to the USPS because I prefer to use USPS if I can while it's still here.
00:10:31
Speaker
And I never, ever fail to hear from people who are like, I'm so happy.
00:10:35
Speaker
I got your card on time.
00:10:36
Speaker
Thank you so much.
00:10:38
Speaker
It really means a lot to people because like in this day and age where everything is like instant gratification, like door dashing and, you know, like streaming, all of this stuff that you can get like in immediate real time.
00:10:50
Speaker
There's something to be said for like the fact that
00:10:52
Speaker
Mail is always going to take a couple days to get anywhere.
00:10:55
Speaker
And if you actually have the wherewithal to time it so that it gets there on time or ahead of time, it's a level of effort that people just tend to be really touched by.
00:11:04
Speaker
So I encourage all people to start to really work on that in your own lives because it really makes your loved ones feel especially loved.
00:11:12
Speaker
Yes, make the effort.
00:11:13
Speaker
And also, if you live internationally, you know, add time for that, like sometimes it can take up to a month.
Cultural Influences on Family Values
00:11:18
Speaker
So if your mom doesn't live in the same country as you make sure you get to that earlier than you normally would.
00:11:23
Speaker
Exactly.
00:11:24
Speaker
You know, but that being said, we understand that this is a really polarizing holiday for most people.
00:11:28
Speaker
Like my mom, for example, is not a big birthday person.
00:11:31
Speaker
She's not a big like holiday celebration person.
00:11:34
Speaker
She's very into her
00:11:35
Speaker
like festivals, her religious festivals, and that's about it.
00:11:39
Speaker
And even then, it's really very much about God.
00:11:41
Speaker
It's not about like, this is time for family.
00:11:43
Speaker
It's like, God must be worshipped and bye-bye.
00:11:46
Speaker
And so my mom grew up really poor.
00:11:48
Speaker
And I think that informed the way that she looks at festivities in general.
00:11:53
Speaker
It's not really a big focus in her life.
00:11:55
Speaker
I think for me, it's the polar opposite.
00:11:57
Speaker
Like I'm all about the festivities.
00:11:58
Speaker
I'm all about doing fun things.
00:12:00
Speaker
But we have also really like a tenuous sort of relationship because we both are really strong like spirits and we're also really independent.
00:12:08
Speaker
You know, so it's like a lot of this stuff, we're not used to being in each other's space so much.
00:12:12
Speaker
So for me, it's like, I've had to learn how to navigate sharing my space with someone in the same way that she has.
00:12:19
Speaker
And she has a lot more time, you know, like she's just got a lot more time to do things now.
00:12:23
Speaker
So she wants to spend her time doing things that she likes because she spent so much of her life doing things she, you know, had to.
00:12:29
Speaker
And I think a lot of mothers probably can relate to that if they were from older generations, where it's like a lot of the stuff they had to do was because they had to do it, not because they necessarily wanted to do it.
00:12:38
Speaker
So I also encourage people to not take it too personally if your mom wants a day off, because chances are that's not usually something she gets.
00:12:45
Speaker
That's a very good way.
00:12:47
Speaker
Actually, with your mother, it doesn't surprise me that you have an amazing mother who's like strong and independent.
00:12:52
Speaker
Do you feel like your dad was sort of like the fulcrum upon which your relationship balanced?
00:12:56
Speaker
Do you feel like he kind of helped, you know, ease the waters among you all?
00:13:01
Speaker
I mean, you know, my dad was a softie.
00:13:02
Speaker
I think he was the one who was very like nurturing and very like, I want to do things and I want to celebrate and I want to buy a cake for no reason at all.
00:13:09
Speaker
And, you know, just like very joyful.
00:13:11
Speaker
And my mom, I mean, also it's a result of their upbringings, I think, because my dad grew up without a lack.
00:13:17
Speaker
You know what I mean?
00:13:18
Speaker
He grew up in a fairly stable family life and had the ability to have finances.
00:13:22
Speaker
He started earning really young.
00:13:24
Speaker
And so he didn't really think of money in that way.
00:13:26
Speaker
I think my mom grew up in a house with a lot of scarcity.
00:13:28
Speaker
And so it impacted the way that she raised me.
00:13:30
Speaker
And so my mom always had a much more disciplined, stoic sort of persona.
00:13:35
Speaker
And my dad was always the goofball.
00:13:37
Speaker
Interestingly, maybe it takes abundance for somebody to actually be able to have that sort of tenderness, but not necessarily, but that's an interesting food for thought.
00:13:45
Speaker
Do you actually know what relationship your mother had with her mother?
00:13:50
Speaker
Oh, I mean, you know what, they loved her.
00:13:51
Speaker
But I think my grandmother was really strict.
00:13:53
Speaker
I mean, she kind of lost all of that by the time I came around because I was like untamable.
00:13:57
Speaker
But my grandmother was really strict with her children because my grandmother was a single mother.
00:14:01
Speaker
Like she had to raise all four of her kids on her own.
00:14:03
Speaker
So she lost her husband really young.
00:14:04
Speaker
And so she had to raise the kids on her own at a time when I don't think most women are even really allowed to have jobs.
00:14:09
Speaker
So she really struggled to put food on the table.
00:14:11
Speaker
And so for them, you know, they kind of grew up without much.
00:14:14
Speaker
And so I think in general, her mindset is very like, don't waste money and squander it on like meaningless things.
00:14:20
Speaker
Like you need to save it for a rainy day.
00:14:22
Speaker
And I do think that financially that helped her stay really stable.
00:14:25
Speaker
But I do think that she's like a person who really does not know how to like celebrate and enjoy herself in that way.
00:14:31
Speaker
Like that doesn't come to her naturally.
00:14:33
Speaker
I think to my dad, it came a lot more naturally.
00:14:34
Speaker
So I think sometimes we have to think about like what we can do to improve our mother's conditions in terms of like,
00:14:40
Speaker
You know, if your mom is not the type of person to identify between when to respect her wishes in terms of like, she wants to be left alone and doesn't want to do anything versus when it's like, she's so used to living such a severe lifestyle that you have to let her lighten up a little bit and do something fun for her.
00:14:56
Speaker
You know, I think we all have the best intentions.
00:14:58
Speaker
And like the fine line is, to what extent should we enforce our agenda?
00:15:03
Speaker
on that person.
00:15:04
Speaker
You know what I mean?
00:15:05
Speaker
Yes, that's such a good question.
00:15:06
Speaker
So my mother, I think I mentioned this before, Diana, right, that she was a nun before she obviously left the nunnery and married my father.
00:15:14
Speaker
And she also came from a very like a German farming family.
00:15:18
Speaker
I don't know why I'm picturing the sound of music.
00:15:20
Speaker
You're one of the Montrap children.
00:15:22
Speaker
Yes, basically.
00:15:24
Speaker
And she was the eldest girl.
00:15:26
Speaker
And so she was really the second mother to all of these children.
00:15:29
Speaker
And, you know, I call it the little house on the prairie upbringing because like we baked our own bread, we made our own jams, we had our own gardens, like we would get our meats from our neighbors who were the farmers who had, you know, either cattle or pigs, like everything was local, like hyper local, right?
00:15:44
Speaker
We very rarely got anything that came in a can that we didn't can.
00:15:48
Speaker
And so my mom came from that, like where everything was accounted for.
00:15:51
Speaker
You wasted nothing.
00:15:52
Speaker
There was, you know, even for like the tripe, you would make a soup out of it.
00:15:56
Speaker
Like I remember one time I came home and she was making soup and I went to stir it to see like what it smelled like and a cow tongue bobbed up.
00:16:02
Speaker
And I was like, ah!
00:16:05
Speaker
Oh, my God.
00:16:05
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:16:07
Speaker
And so she was that style of like waste not want not.
00:16:10
Speaker
In fact, one of her brothers when I went to visit home for a funeral last year, he's like, Oh, did your mother teach you how to hold a nickel so tight, it turned into a dime.
00:16:17
Speaker
And I was like, Oh, my gosh, me that my mom did teach me that.
00:16:20
Speaker
By the time I came around, you know, she had been a nun.
00:16:24
Speaker
She had had a very austere farm life.
00:16:26
Speaker
I never had a blanket that was bought for me.
00:16:28
Speaker
She made all of our quilts, all of our blankets, right?
00:16:30
Speaker
The only thing she didn't like sew were our sheets.
00:16:33
Speaker
At least she would buy our sheets.
00:16:34
Speaker
But other than that, you know, everything was from scratch.
00:16:37
Speaker
And I really appreciated it.
00:16:39
Speaker
And I appreciate it even more now, knowing like how much time and effort she put into it.
00:16:43
Speaker
And the quality was wonderful.
00:16:45
Speaker
But as I got older, I just noticed how like she denied herself...
00:16:50
Speaker
everything.
00:16:51
Speaker
She only drank water.
00:16:53
Speaker
She only wore the clothes that she had bought, you know, 15 years ago, or the shorts she had sewed herself 20 years ago.
00:17:00
Speaker
I mean, you know, like she wouldn't even buy herself new shoes.
00:17:04
Speaker
And I remember being like, you know, she's so on the ball with making sure like we're always well fed, we're well shod, we're in any and all sports or activities we want, you know, for piano music, piano music was really expensive.
00:17:15
Speaker
She never hesitated to buy me whatever piano literature I wanted.
00:17:19
Speaker
And so as I got older, I started to realize like, you know what?
00:17:23
Speaker
If this woman is ever going to be cosseted and indulged, it's going to have to come from me.
00:17:27
Speaker
And at that point, my brother was still living at home with me.
00:17:31
Speaker
I was the youngest, so everybody left one by one.
00:17:33
Speaker
But I was like, hey, listen, brother.
00:17:35
Speaker
Let's pull our money for Mother's Day and let's buy our mom some nice clothes.
00:17:38
Speaker
And he was like, oh, God, please.
00:17:40
Speaker
Yes.
00:17:41
Speaker
He's like, I'll drive us.
00:17:42
Speaker
Let's go.
00:17:42
Speaker
He's like, I've hated her clothing all for so long.
00:17:45
Speaker
And I was like, well, hey, how about for every birthday and every Christmas, you and I put our money together and we'll just slowly start replacing her wardrobe and getting her nice things.
00:17:54
Speaker
Things that were in her style.
00:17:55
Speaker
I wasn't buying her things that weren't to her liking.
00:17:57
Speaker
She loved what we got her.
00:17:59
Speaker
It's exactly what she would have bought if she would buy herself things, but she wouldn't.
00:18:02
Speaker
And so over the course of like 10 years, my brother and I literally like gave her a wardrobe.
00:18:08
Speaker
I would take her shoe shopping.
00:18:09
Speaker
I had to buy her new socks.
00:18:11
Speaker
In fact, when I moved home that last year to take care of her as she was dying of cancer, I was folding her socks and underwear and they all had holes in them.
00:18:20
Speaker
And I was like, no, this is unacceptable.
00:18:23
Speaker
I literally had to buy her new underwear and socks because otherwise she would have just kept wearing what she already had.
00:18:29
Speaker
And I think that's where the fine line of like, how do you honor her wishes, but also like a lot of mothers will never allow you to care for them.
00:18:37
Speaker
They think it always has to go one way.
00:18:39
Speaker
But I think if you have a loving relationship with your mother or one of like gratitude and healthiness, then it's okay to start to like what you might feel is overreaching or overstepping.
00:18:50
Speaker
It's okay to do that in service of caring for her.
00:18:54
Speaker
And I mean, for what it's worth, I don't think she's much of an overreacher.
00:18:57
Speaker
I think that, you know, growing up with her mother, realizing that that level of overreach was something that she never really liked was something that she didn't really impose on me.
00:19:04
Speaker
Like, you know, when you grow up in a culture, if you come from any culture where marriage is like a really high priority, by the time you start hitting your mid 20s, people start asking.
00:19:13
Speaker
And so a lot of the pressure comes internally from your family to like, succumb to that pressure of like, find someone get married at any cost.
00:19:20
Speaker
And I never really had that pressure.
00:19:22
Speaker
Like the priority for me was always educate yourself and get a good living out of it.
00:19:26
Speaker
Like make sure you're able to look after yourself.
00:19:28
Speaker
And I think that's directly come from, again, being raised by a single mom that had to do those things, you know, that had to be intelligent about money, that had to work, that didn't have the option because there was no other man there, you know.
00:19:41
Speaker
She could have gotten married again, but I don't think she wanted to do that.
00:19:44
Speaker
I mean, I don't really know much about my
00:19:46
Speaker
biological grandfather.
00:19:48
Speaker
I can't speak to what kind of man he was or how helpful he was.
00:19:51
Speaker
But I mean, if he's anything like the men of his time, it's very likely that, you know, she was still doing most of the housework and the child rearing, right?
00:19:58
Speaker
So like now also having to be a breadwinner, like, I think that, you know, she didn't really have much time to give emotionally to her children.
00:20:05
Speaker
And I think that that does impact the way that your parents are
00:20:08
Speaker
Like these depression era people in general, like they lived in a time where it was like, you know, emotional bonding with your child was like something that only strange people did, I guess.
00:20:18
Speaker
Yeah, it was you on the field together, right?
00:20:21
Speaker
It's like, you must have time.
00:20:22
Speaker
Yeah.
00:20:24
Speaker
You must have time.
00:20:25
Speaker
Yeah, well, we're planting corn together.
00:20:26
Speaker
Well, and that's such a good point.
00:20:28
Speaker
My mom, actually, I had much older parents because my mom had been in the nunnery.
00:20:31
Speaker
And so she was 41 when I was born.
00:20:33
Speaker
And yes, I was the youngest of four, but like she didn't have my sister until she was 34.
00:20:38
Speaker
And this was back in the 70s.
00:20:40
Speaker
You know, like this was pretty unusual.
00:20:42
Speaker
And so as similar to you, Diana, I never had marriage modeled for me or brought up to me or encouraged to me.
00:20:48
Speaker
It was always just like, Oh, you're a wonderful pianist.
00:20:51
Speaker
You should really pursue that.
00:20:52
Speaker
Oh, you're so good with books.
00:20:53
Speaker
Why don't you work on your education?
00:20:55
Speaker
What do you think you might want to be in your life?
00:20:58
Speaker
And you know, when I wanted to travel, she was like, Oh, it's so wonderful.
00:21:00
Speaker
You're going to go to the most wonderful places.
00:21:02
Speaker
Just take care.
00:21:04
Speaker
But it was always like, she wanted me to be a whole person in and of myself.
00:21:08
Speaker
That was her only goal for me.
00:21:09
Speaker
And I just think,
00:21:10
Speaker
I've seen so many of my friends whose mothers are just obsessed with their kids getting married and having grandbabies.
00:21:15
Speaker
When are you going to give me my grandbabies?
00:21:17
Speaker
When am I going to be a grandma?
00:21:18
Speaker
And I just think like, what a sad life it is that you can't just allow your child to grow up to be who they are.
00:21:24
Speaker
Mm hmm.
00:21:25
Speaker
You know, that's the thing.
00:21:26
Speaker
The older you get, you start realizing your parents are just people.
00:21:28
Speaker
I think my mom has a really funny sense of humor at times.
00:21:31
Speaker
Like, you know, I've asked her questions through life being like, well, you know, there are some women who are like worried about their partners, like cheating on them and stuff.
00:21:39
Speaker
Like, you know, they marry a rich guy and he cheats on them.
00:21:40
Speaker
Like what's stopping them from cheating on them, you know?
00:21:42
Speaker
And she was like, well, clearly this is a skill issue because you should be spending all of his money.
00:21:46
Speaker
If you spend all of his money, he has no money for a mistress.
00:21:48
Speaker
And I was like...
00:21:51
Speaker
And I didn't expect that answer.
00:21:52
Speaker
She was like, this is a skill issue.
00:21:54
Speaker
Like you should be studying all of it.
00:21:58
Speaker
Your mom was FDS, pre-FDS.
00:22:00
Speaker
Damn, Diana.
00:22:01
Speaker
No wonder this is your lineage.
00:22:02
Speaker
I was laughing so hard because I didn't expect that answer from her.
00:22:05
Speaker
And she was like, this is a skills issue.
00:22:06
Speaker
Like if you spend off his money, he won't have money for a mistress.
00:22:09
Speaker
I was like, which was funny because that was a joke with my dad as well.
00:22:13
Speaker
He was like, between the two of you, you're so expensive.
00:22:15
Speaker
Like anybody accusing me of infidelity is like, must have a really false understanding of my finances.
00:22:20
Speaker
He's like, both of you are incredibly expensive.
00:22:23
Speaker
I don't know what made you think that you're cheap.
00:22:25
Speaker
I was like...
00:22:26
Speaker
And I bet he was proud.
00:22:29
Speaker
He was probably proud that he had such expensive ladies.
00:22:33
Speaker
Yeah.
00:22:33
Speaker
I mean, look, you know, my father also grew up around a lot of women who were expensive ladies.
00:22:37
Speaker
Like there was no cutting slack in his family in terms of like what the expectation was for men.
00:22:43
Speaker
Like they had to work, you know, they had to work at home too.
00:22:45
Speaker
Like, cause it was like the division of labor in that household was dependent on the fact that there were just that many people and it wasn't feasible for one or two women to pick up the slack for many of them.
00:22:54
Speaker
Again, more to do with common sense and less to do with misogyny.
00:22:57
Speaker
Right.
00:22:58
Speaker
And that's the thing.
00:22:59
Speaker
Like, I think a lot of families misogyny is a core principle in their households.
00:23:02
Speaker
So it doesn't matter what religion they follow.
00:23:04
Speaker
It doesn't matter what their financial position is.
00:23:06
Speaker
It's even if it makes sense for less people to work, it's like the principle of the matter that the woman should work.
00:23:11
Speaker
Yeah, I would argue that misogyny is the cult.
00:23:14
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
00:23:15
Speaker
Patriarchy is the religion, actually.
00:23:17
Speaker
in my father's family, it's not that they weren't patriarchal men.
00:23:20
Speaker
It's just that the expectation that the women would do everything was not something they could sustain because the women of my family protested hard.
00:23:27
Speaker
And the women of my family came of age when like South Asia was like, you know, relieving itself of like colonialism.
00:23:32
Speaker
Like they were leaving colonial structures behind.
00:23:35
Speaker
So like civil disobedience became like a national movement.
00:23:39
Speaker
Yeah.
00:23:40
Speaker
And that extended to the household.
00:23:41
Speaker
It was like, if I don't want to do this, I'm just not going to do this.
00:23:43
Speaker
And then you're going to have to feed yourself anyway.
00:23:45
Speaker
So figure it out.
00:23:47
Speaker
So they just kind of knew that they couldn't toe that line with them because they'd be like, well, we're just going to shut down and do nothing.
00:23:52
Speaker
We're going to play bingo.
00:23:53
Speaker
And we're going to go play Ludo.
00:23:55
Speaker
And we're going to play some board games and just not bother.
00:23:58
Speaker
And then you're going to have to wash your dishes and wash your clothes on your own.
00:24:00
Speaker
Like civil disobedience helps.
00:24:02
Speaker
I think women think about like male weaponized incompetence, but I'm telling you, you can pull the same shit back on them.
00:24:07
Speaker
Like anytime a man has asked me to cook, I always like that.
00:24:09
Speaker
I think this was a trick from Sherry Argov's book, but I didn't even know that it was a trick because I used to do it all the time.
00:24:14
Speaker
I used to like blow up something or burn something in his household.
00:24:17
Speaker
So he'd never ask me to do it again.
00:24:21
Speaker
Yeah, where you like burn the rice.
00:24:22
Speaker
It's like, it's impossible to burn the rice, you know, overcook the popcorn, undercook the chicken, like just do it so that he does never asks you to do that ever.
00:24:32
Speaker
I mean, I will say I don't think that you should be doing this like now as a grown adult, like, I will say that in order to avoid having to have direct conversations with people where now I would just be like, I'm not doing that.
00:24:42
Speaker
But back then I was like, I don't want to hurt his feelings by saying I'm not doing that.
00:24:45
Speaker
So I'm going to just be so bad at this that he just never asked me to do it again.
00:24:48
Speaker
I was already pulling men's tricks back on them.
00:24:51
Speaker
I was like, I love that.
00:24:53
Speaker
And I think that's a good point.
00:24:54
Speaker
If you're somebody who has a problem saying no, or if you just like, you know, are a chronic people pleaser, this is a really good alternate method of like, voicing your displeasure without having to actually say it.
00:25:04
Speaker
You know what I'm saying?
00:25:05
Speaker
Like, this is a very savvy technique, Diana.
00:25:07
Speaker
I'm glad you brought that up to us.
00:25:09
Speaker
Yep.
00:25:09
Speaker
You know, going back to family structures for a second, I do think that, you know, when I look at the family structure in my father's household, where the women actually had each other's back and were able to unionize this way, I don't think this is the norm in most family structures.
00:25:21
Speaker
I think even amongst women, there's usually a hierarchy and like mother-in-laws and like the head matriarch of the family expects the other women to fall in line and cater to and please the men in a certain kind of way.
00:25:32
Speaker
I don't think that coddling was allowed in general, which is why my father didn't grow up with that level.
00:25:36
Speaker
He would have been a very different man if that was allowed.
00:25:38
Speaker
You know what I mean?
00:25:39
Speaker
I think in most families, it's like the expectation that when the bride comes into the family, the mother-in-law is going to direct her and tell her, this is what you need to do in order to be like a sufficient wife for my darling son, the king of the house.
00:25:50
Speaker
And you need to learn all of his favorite recipes and you need to cook things exactly the way that I like that I cook it so that he
Parental Expectations and Emotional Impact
00:25:55
Speaker
feels satisfied.
00:25:55
Speaker
And so it's like there's this grooming of young women when they enter households to like cater to the men in a specific sort of way.
00:26:02
Speaker
And that makes women really resentful of older women.
00:26:05
Speaker
I don't think it's just as simple as like men encourage you to like look down on or have beef with older women.
00:26:10
Speaker
I do think that internally, we also need to think about the ways in which our internal misogyny comes out to play where we're like, oh, I expect her to treat my son a specific kind of way.
00:26:19
Speaker
Right.
00:26:19
Speaker
And to take my word as law.
00:26:21
Speaker
Yeah.
00:26:21
Speaker
Yeah.
00:26:22
Speaker
Actually, I think this leads to one of the points we wanted to discuss, which is the wound of motherhood, the mother wound.
00:26:28
Speaker
Right.
00:26:28
Speaker
And that's why this could be a really complicated holiday.
00:26:31
Speaker
I know that's why Father's Day is a very difficult one for me personally.
00:26:34
Speaker
But for a lot of women, you know, they have had mothers who have been nightmares or who have been absolutely neglectful or who have been pick me's and like have chronically brought unsuitable men into the household and like put their daughters in peril or led to them being assaulted.
00:26:49
Speaker
I mean, there are so many ways in which mothers can let down their children.
00:26:52
Speaker
And that seems to be something that we don't like to...
00:26:56
Speaker
acknowledge, let alone acknowledge like how deeply that wound actually runs for many people, let alone daughters.
00:27:03
Speaker
And I think what ends up happening is that the ecosystem we live in is also very reluctant to scrutinize mothers.
00:27:08
Speaker
And so if all of you have read this book, I really recommend this book.
00:27:11
Speaker
It's called Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents.
00:27:14
Speaker
Rose and I were talking about this in the pre-chat and we're like, this is one of the books that is definitely something you should read if you have any kind of parental wound, mother, father, doesn't matter, because it talks about this thing called healing fantasies.
00:27:27
Speaker
And healing fantasy is
00:27:29
Speaker
is essentially this idea that you can have this ideal relationship with your parent based on certain actions you do.
00:27:37
Speaker
For example, when you're a child, it's like, if I'm just a good student, maybe my mom will love me.
00:27:40
Speaker
Maybe my parents won't get divorced.
00:27:42
Speaker
And then when you get older, it's like, I have the capacity to have this compassion.
00:27:47
Speaker
I have this privilege of an education that's allowed me to feel this level of compassion.
00:27:51
Speaker
And if I can continue talking and having a dialogue with my parent every single day, maybe I can wear them down.
00:27:57
Speaker
And it's very hard for people to accept this even in their romantic relationships.
00:28:00
Speaker
So I understand where it comes from because it stems from your parental relationships as well.
00:28:04
Speaker
It's this idea that if they wanted to, they would, you know, and I think it's hurtful when you hear it from a parent, right?
00:28:12
Speaker
And it's like, this parent doesn't do that, not because they're not capable.
00:28:15
Speaker
In some cases, they aren't capable.
00:28:16
Speaker
In some cases, that hasn't been modeled for them.
00:28:18
Speaker
But honestly, even in a situation where it was modeled for them, some of them just don't want to do it.
00:28:23
Speaker
Yeah, because of their own trauma and wounds, right?
00:28:26
Speaker
That's their own immaturity.
00:28:28
Speaker
And that's why this book is titled adult children of emotionally immature parents.
00:28:32
Speaker
I mean, that was one of the first ones that my therapist recommended to me.
00:28:35
Speaker
So I've been reading that on and off for over 10 years now.
00:28:38
Speaker
I mean, I own a physical copy.
00:28:40
Speaker
I bought the book.
00:28:41
Speaker
And I think it's hard for people to accept it as well, because it's like functionally, your parent might be someone who is on top of their game, really good at their career, really good at finances, has provided a stable sort of living for you.
00:28:52
Speaker
You know, you have food on the table, your material needs are met, they paid for school, etc, etc.
00:28:57
Speaker
But emotionally, you just do not have that connection with that parent.
00:29:01
Speaker
I would argue my other brother and sister, they both have children, but my brother has two boys.
00:29:07
Speaker
And his whole life he's worked hard to be like the provider and the masculine figure and the voice of wisdom, but he never goes home.
00:29:18
Speaker
He just works.
00:29:19
Speaker
That's all he does.
00:29:21
Speaker
And like, it can be your birthday.
00:29:22
Speaker
It can be Christmas and oh, something happened at the office.
00:29:24
Speaker
He has to go in.
00:29:26
Speaker
And I really don't think he's having an affair.
00:29:27
Speaker
I've been there before, like where he's just there alone on a Sunday.
00:29:31
Speaker
And it's just like, why are you having these kids?
00:29:34
Speaker
Well, that's what he thought he had to do.
00:29:36
Speaker
but he does not know how to be present for them emotionally.
00:29:39
Speaker
And I just think it's so sad because his boys are such wonderful boys and they don't even know what they're missing, right?
00:29:44
Speaker
They think their dad is wonderful.
00:29:45
Speaker
And to them he is, but what they'll come to learn as they get older is like, he was never really present in the ways that matter.
00:29:52
Speaker
Yeah.
00:29:53
Speaker
Yeah.
00:29:53
Speaker
And I think that's the thing.
00:29:55
Speaker
We have set too much store by men just being financial providers without any expectation of them being emotional providers as well.
00:30:01
Speaker
It's like, oh, as long as the money is coming in, he's a great father.
00:30:05
Speaker
And for women, it's like the polar opposite where it's like she needs to cut the crests off wrong one day for her to be a bad mom.
00:30:11
Speaker
Yeah.
00:30:12
Speaker
Yes, she forgot the peanut butter.
00:30:14
Speaker
She forgot that he prefers creamy and not crunchy.
00:30:17
Speaker
And now she's the worst mom in the world.
00:30:19
Speaker
Right.
00:30:20
Speaker
And so I'm not saying to cut slack for women and for mothers if you've been affected by a terrible mother.
00:30:25
Speaker
Like, I really want to be very clear that, you know.
00:30:28
Speaker
you know your relationship and how you feel best.
00:30:31
Speaker
That's why I think it's a good idea to read that book just to assess whether you have these healing fantasies.
00:30:36
Speaker
Because I think a lot of people are trapped in, again, cycles of emotional abuse because they keep relying on this healing fantasy of like, if I just keep talking it out, if I communicate, it will solve everything.
00:30:47
Speaker
Which is why a big part of FDS is also like, you can't communicate people out of their traumas.
00:30:52
Speaker
You can't communicate sense into them if they don't want to receive sense.
00:30:55
Speaker
You can't have an equal conversation with a person who's not trying to be a recipient of that conversation.
00:31:01
Speaker
it's so hard.
00:31:02
Speaker
It's so hard to accept and come to terms with that.
00:31:05
Speaker
Ask me how I know.
00:31:06
Speaker
But it's true that once you accept it and start to really integrate that, what I tell you, like the level of improvement that your life comes to is unreal.
00:31:14
Speaker
I just look back over, it took me a really long time to start to accept that.
00:31:18
Speaker
It took me even longer to actually start to put boundaries in my life with people who are just not going to be able to care or care for me in ways that I needed and that were reasonable.
00:31:27
Speaker
And since I actually started to just deal with that wound and accept that, like seeing them and being a part of their lives and continuing to try was just reopening that wound again and again and again.
00:31:37
Speaker
Since I've stopped, the amount of improvement in my life has been immeasurable.
00:31:42
Speaker
Yep.
00:31:43
Speaker
And I think it's a big part of understanding that you need to reparent yourself and reprogram yourself in order to get to that position of clarity where you understand that this person is flawed.
00:31:55
Speaker
It's harder with parents than it is with partners because you can't really choose your parent, you know?
00:31:59
Speaker
So you might have a vision of your family life that's not actually the reality of what you have with this parent.
00:32:06
Speaker
And it's very easy to get caught up into this idea of like, if I just keep talking it out with them,
00:32:11
Speaker
you know, they'll understand someday and poor them and they live through World War Two or Vietnam or whatever they've lived through, if they've, you know, especially if they're veterans, or if they've been through like extreme trauma, poverty, like lots of war, you know, any any sort of thing that like really affects a person mentally.
00:32:28
Speaker
And then say, they have the capacity to just have a regular, regular, normal relationship with me.
00:32:33
Speaker
Because it is that much harder for them.
00:32:35
Speaker
And you can have empathy for a person while also maintaining empathy for yourself and being like, you know, I feel bad that my mom went through X, like she went through poverty, but that doesn't excuse her inability to celebrate me.
00:32:47
Speaker
That doesn't excuse her ability to not care about
00:32:50
Speaker
me, right?
00:32:51
Speaker
Because you would also think that with abundance, as a person grows through life, and they go from a position of scarcity to a position of abundance, that they would naturally want to bestow that abundance on their offspring.
00:33:03
Speaker
Like I think also generationally, between the boomers and like the generations that came after them, we're kind of shell shocked by this understanding that they might be the first generation that truly doesn't want better for their kids.
00:33:14
Speaker
I think it's really hard for a lot of people to accept because we were all told this at a really young age that like, oh, you know, parents just want the best for their kids.
00:33:21
Speaker
We're kind of seeing generationally that like that might not be true of boomers.
00:33:26
Speaker
Yeah, like maybe not.
00:33:28
Speaker
Maybe not.
00:33:29
Speaker
And it's so sad.
00:33:30
Speaker
It's really so sad.
00:33:32
Speaker
It's like such a brief period of prosperity and they're like, okay, I got mine.
00:33:35
Speaker
We're good.
00:33:36
Speaker
Peace out.
00:33:37
Speaker
You know, but like, let's deal with the facts as they stand.
00:33:40
Speaker
Right.
00:33:40
Speaker
And I think this is a really good point where, you know, the idea that you want to have empathy and understanding for your parent while also reparenting yourself.
00:33:48
Speaker
That was a big one with my therapist as well.
00:33:50
Speaker
It was like learning how to parent the child inside that had never received the care and the tenderness that she required in order to really grow and flourish.
00:33:57
Speaker
Yeah.
00:33:58
Speaker
And since I've been like, Oh, little baby Rose, you little cutie pie, like, obviously, that's not all I do.
00:34:03
Speaker
But like, you know, I have a few pictures of myself up from when I was a small child.
00:34:07
Speaker
And I try to touch base at least a time or two every week to look at that and just be like, you know, you did so well, like you were such a good little girl, you were such a little sweetheart.
00:34:17
Speaker
It's okay that you're hurting.
00:34:18
Speaker
It's okay that you didn't get, you know, your big sister that you wanted.
00:34:22
Speaker
Like, what would you say to your child if you had your own child?
00:34:24
Speaker
That's what I've had to do with myself.
00:34:26
Speaker
And it really has made such a huge difference.
00:34:28
Speaker
But this is something that when we were talking about this in the pre-show, we were like, okay, this is a big wound.
00:34:32
Speaker
Let's acknowledge it.
00:34:33
Speaker
And at the same time, we're like, but why is it so taboo to criticize mothers?
00:34:38
Speaker
Why?
00:34:39
Speaker
We think it's due to patriarchy, right, Diana?
00:34:41
Speaker
Yeah.
00:34:41
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, there's this false promise of motherhood.
00:34:44
Speaker
And it's the only thing that society really rewards.
00:34:46
Speaker
And if you take away the reward of motherhood, why would most people do it?
00:34:49
Speaker
So I think this is one of the situations in which even patriarchy is very critical of like people who try to criticize motherhood, because they recognize that that's the last thing that they have that they can sell to women that's not romance.
00:35:02
Speaker
you know, the joy and the fulfillment of motherhood.
00:35:05
Speaker
So if women didn't find a sense of joy and fulfillment from motherhood, that takes away every last chip that men have to keep us in this position.
00:35:13
Speaker
You know, again, a lot of people look into, well, my parent grew up with scarcity and that's why they're terrible to me now.
00:35:19
Speaker
But there's also people who've grown up in abundance who are the same way.
00:35:23
Speaker
So it's really important to acknowledge that it's not really about the amount of resources they had.
00:35:29
Speaker
It's about their attitude to those resources in general and whether they see it as, you know, a place from which they can grow or a place that they're trapped by.
00:35:37
Speaker
And this is the thing about like a lot of men, right?
00:35:39
Speaker
A lot of men will be like, I justify my abuse of other women because I was abused.
00:35:43
Speaker
I meet more men like this that look at their own family setup and look at their father wounds and they're like, well, my dad was an absent alcoholic.
00:35:51
Speaker
And so I justify my abuse of women because I grew up in terrible circumstances.
00:35:54
Speaker
And so they need to be the emotional punching bag for my childhood, right?
00:35:59
Speaker
But at the same time, I think about, you know, the men in my father's generation, my father included, who were orphaned really young and didn't wind up becoming like that, didn't wind up being embittered by their position in life and by not having the same amount of resources or parents or whatever it is that other people had.
00:36:15
Speaker
Because they saw what they lacked and they were like, I don't want my kid to go without something like that.
00:36:20
Speaker
So I'm going to make sure that I give them the best.
00:36:22
Speaker
And I think, again, it comes down to an attitude.
00:36:24
Speaker
It comes down to how much does he identify with his victimhood?
00:36:28
Speaker
I don't really keep this just to men because I've had this vetting strategy with friends as well, where I'm like, I'm very suspicious of people who over identify with their victimhood.
00:36:37
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:36:38
Speaker
For me, it's in my number one red flag, men or women.
00:36:41
Speaker
Yeah, I've had some bad friends who are like, I'm just a victim.
00:36:45
Speaker
If you end up with that friend, like it's only going to be downhill from there.
00:36:49
Speaker
Like when you meet them is the best it will ever be.
00:36:51
Speaker
And it only gets worse from there.
00:36:53
Speaker
My sister has the chronic victimhood martyr complex.
00:36:57
Speaker
And it's just like, there's no point having any conversation because she always has to bring it back to how she's been wronged.
00:37:02
Speaker
And it's like, I get it.
00:37:03
Speaker
You know, listen, I grew up in the same family as you.
00:37:06
Speaker
I'm well aware of the wrongs that we've experienced, right?
00:37:08
Speaker
But like at a certain point,
00:37:10
Speaker
You have to have the temperament that's like, okay, well, onwards and upwards.
00:37:12
Speaker
Or if not, like, I'm going to leave you behind because I can't continue to be weighted down by like these years of victimhood that you refuse to relinquish.
00:37:20
Speaker
And I get it.
00:37:22
Speaker
I really get it that it's so, so hard when you come from like deep trauma or abuse, you know, or neglect, which is its own pernicious thing.
00:37:29
Speaker
But like at a certain point, you have to kind of decide what kind of temperament you want to have in this life.
00:37:33
Speaker
And mine was like, I'm going to believe in abundance.
00:37:36
Speaker
I'm going to believe in like that the universe is operating according to my greatest good.
00:37:42
Speaker
I'm going to believe that wonderful things are coming my way.
Navigating Relationships and Societal Roles
00:37:45
Speaker
And guess what, Diana?
00:37:46
Speaker
All of this is coming through all of this.
00:37:49
Speaker
You know what I'm saying?
00:37:50
Speaker
So it's like in a way you sort of like what you permit is what you promote.
00:37:56
Speaker
So for me, the fact that I no longer permit these like constant victims in my life means that I've now promoted, you know, like resilience and positivity and optimism.
00:38:07
Speaker
That's what comes into my life now.
00:38:09
Speaker
And that's what I need.
00:38:10
Speaker
I think it's another reason why there's a taboo to criticize mothers with that, though.
00:38:14
Speaker
And it's because whether they want to admit it or not, I think that a lot of people see mothers as the victims of society.
00:38:20
Speaker
And they are in the sense that they're not really nurtured or helped in any meaningful way.
00:38:24
Speaker
Clearly, despite the fact that patriarchy relies on mothers to create the next generation of workers, they don't really value them as the source of all of that.
00:38:33
Speaker
They don't really make it easier.
00:38:35
Speaker
And that's why you have this birthrate crisis right now everywhere where it's like, oh my God, it's such a terrible thing that women aren't just letting men jizz in them.
00:38:43
Speaker
Yeah, well...
00:38:45
Speaker
Why should we give up our lives for men who are absent?
00:38:49
Speaker
Because we already we've seen what it looks like from previous generations.
00:38:52
Speaker
We're not unaware.
00:38:53
Speaker
Like a lot of these men will, you know, extol the virtues of this kind of sacrifice that their mothers made.
00:38:59
Speaker
Like I've been on dates with men where they're like, Oh my God, my mother, she sacrificed everything for me.
00:39:03
Speaker
She did everything for me.
00:39:04
Speaker
And it's like always a red flag because that's exactly what he expects from you because he sees nothing wrong in her suffering.
00:39:09
Speaker
He thinks that there's some virtue in her suffering.
00:39:11
Speaker
And so like a lot of them, they view mothers as the victims of society.
00:39:15
Speaker
And so it becomes taboo to criticize them because they like them in that position.
00:39:19
Speaker
If they genuinely didn't want them to be victims, they would actually help them.
00:39:23
Speaker
They'd be present parents.
00:39:24
Speaker
They would be a present government.
00:39:26
Speaker
They would do something about it to ease their pains.
00:39:28
Speaker
They like that position of victimhood.
00:39:32
Speaker
Yeah, because it's in service to them, which is what they've been taught.
00:39:35
Speaker
So yeah, exactly.
00:39:36
Speaker
And I think this is the other thing.
00:39:37
Speaker
It's like, you know, it's a double bind of being a mother because it's held up as like the ultimate womanly ideal.
00:39:44
Speaker
And yet it's also used to punish and corral and imprison women.
00:39:49
Speaker
So patriarchy wants to be able to like decide whether they want to reward it or punish it.
00:39:53
Speaker
But it's never going to be your choice, which one you get.
00:39:56
Speaker
It's just going to be the luck of the draw.
00:39:58
Speaker
And like, who wants to play that lottery?
00:40:00
Speaker
If those are your options?
00:40:03
Speaker
And I think that's why patriarchy also has like this hatred for single women.
00:40:07
Speaker
But if you really think about it, most mothers are single women.
00:40:09
Speaker
Oh, yeah, we call them married single mothers.
00:40:11
Speaker
Yeah, married single mothers.
00:40:13
Speaker
They're all single moms.
00:40:14
Speaker
The reason you don't like single moms is because they chose that for themselves, as opposed to the woman who's still stuck with a man that's useless to her, you know?
00:40:21
Speaker
Well, actually, the brother I was talking about, who's always at work, who like on Christmas will disappear.
00:40:25
Speaker
I consider his wife a married single mother.
00:40:28
Speaker
She does everything.
00:40:29
Speaker
And she's a wonderful woman.
00:40:31
Speaker
He married a woman who was basically, you know, he married the woman who was our mother.
00:40:36
Speaker
And that's exactly what our mother did.
00:40:37
Speaker
And that's what he wanted for his life.
00:40:38
Speaker
And he found it.
00:40:40
Speaker
I have a lot of empathy for her.
00:40:42
Speaker
But, you know, at the same time, it's like, well, when you make these choices, when you're a certain age, and then you see the results, like,
00:40:49
Speaker
you have to decide what you're willing to permit, you know?
00:40:52
Speaker
And if you want to be married to a man who's just never there, that's your choice too, you know?
00:40:56
Speaker
But that's not the one I'm going to make.
00:40:58
Speaker
No.
00:40:59
Speaker
I also think it's because of the superficiality of the reward of being a mother and being a married woman, you know?
00:41:04
Speaker
Like they're okay with the reward that comes from being a married mother.
00:41:08
Speaker
Yes, I think she really is.
00:41:11
Speaker
And they're willing to give up their own independence and their own respect, their self respect for that.
00:41:18
Speaker
At first, I tried to be much closer to her.
00:41:19
Speaker
But over time, I realized like she really just wants to be a mother like in her own world and really isn't interested beyond like the walls of her home, you know, what's going on.
00:41:29
Speaker
And that's something that that's never going to be me, you know.
00:41:32
Speaker
So that is something I want to bring up, though, before I know we're coming to a close.
00:41:36
Speaker
But I think something that I have to bring up before we wrap it up is that, you know, being a mother is always a chancy proposition.
00:41:43
Speaker
It's always been used as a cudgel for women and their choices throughout millennia.
00:41:48
Speaker
But not only have we had to deal with patriarchy right now, we're dealing with fascism.
00:41:53
Speaker
We are dealing with scary political times.
00:41:55
Speaker
And I think, you know, that's another reason why women are really kind of hesitant now.
00:41:59
Speaker
It's not just the quality of the men that we have to deal with and their lack as potential fathers and partners.
00:42:05
Speaker
But like when you're dealing with men who would rather take away your vote,
00:42:09
Speaker
or force you from your job and all financial independence.
00:42:13
Speaker
Like, how are you supposed to bring a child into that kind of world?
00:42:16
Speaker
I wouldn't, I won't.
00:42:18
Speaker
And you have to remember that those ties are permanent.
00:42:20
Speaker
You can get rid of a man, you can't get rid of a child.
00:42:22
Speaker
And the child ties you to the man forever.
00:42:24
Speaker
It's really strange how, you know, a lot of men will be like, oh, yeah, I had a child with this woman, but I refused to marry her.
00:42:30
Speaker
And it's like, a child is a lot more, I mean, if you're actually participating, a child is a lot more work than marriage.
00:42:36
Speaker
And I think, who did I read?
00:42:37
Speaker
It was an older woman, Julia Fox.
00:42:40
Speaker
Oh, yeah.
00:42:41
Speaker
Yeah.
00:42:42
Speaker
I just wish I had known how important choosing the father of my child was.
00:42:46
Speaker
Why wasn't I ever taught that this was going to be a decision that had ramifications for my entire life?
00:42:52
Speaker
She's like, I just wish I had really known that and thought so much more carefully about who was going to be the father of my child.
00:42:58
Speaker
Yeah.
00:42:58
Speaker
And I was like, oh, oh, my God, totally.
00:43:01
Speaker
Who you marry and who you divorce.
00:43:02
Speaker
Like, this is why I think like Sex and the City is such an interesting show because of like the way that Charlotte's divorce went by.
00:43:08
Speaker
Like she still had a partner that was willing to set her up for life after they ended their relationship.
00:43:14
Speaker
And I think that that's where the mutual respect part comes in.
00:43:16
Speaker
Like, I just saw this interview with Dave Portnoy, the guy who I think he runs Barstool Sports, like he owns it.
00:43:22
Speaker
Right.
00:43:23
Speaker
And I mean, look, I have nothing to say about him as a person.
00:43:27
Speaker
I know nothing about him.
00:43:28
Speaker
Right.
00:43:28
Speaker
And I don't think very highly of Barstool Sports because they've done a lot of them.
00:43:31
Speaker
crazy fucked up shit.
00:43:33
Speaker
But I was just listening to this interview about how his ex wife has access to his bank account.
00:43:39
Speaker
And she can like take whatever amount of money that she wants from it, right?
00:43:42
Speaker
Like she can do whatever the fuck she wants with it.
00:43:44
Speaker
He pays for like everything for her even now.
00:43:46
Speaker
And he said that, you know, she has a boyfriend currently.
00:43:49
Speaker
And like the interviewer asked her, he was like, well, if she decides to marry her boyfriend, like and she uses that money, and he was like, she could drain everything in that account.
00:43:57
Speaker
And I wouldn't know.
00:43:58
Speaker
And he's like, well, why would you allow that?
00:43:59
Speaker
Right.
00:44:00
Speaker
And he was like, well, because she was there with me when I had nothing.
00:44:03
Speaker
And the only reason I have anything at all right now is because she helped me with that.
00:44:07
Speaker
So like, I'm loyal to a fault.
00:44:09
Speaker
Like, I trust her.
00:44:10
Speaker
She is my friend.
00:44:11
Speaker
We didn't work out as a relationship, but she is my friend.
00:44:14
Speaker
And so because she set me up, I'm okay with helping her out for the rest of her life.
00:44:19
Speaker
So if that's what she wants, she wants me to help her pay for this wedding to this guy, then I'm in full support of that.
00:44:24
Speaker
And I just thought, oh, okay, I don't know anything else about this guy.
00:44:26
Speaker
So I can't, you know, verify whether he's a decent man or not.
00:44:30
Speaker
But just on that action alone, I'm like, okay, this is what we should want in the end of a relationship, right?
00:44:35
Speaker
We want someone who mutually respects us, who's like, I don't know if she's the mother of his children.
00:44:38
Speaker
I don't know if he has any kids.
00:44:40
Speaker
But he doesn't look at her with this like, I got mine, this is mine, that is yours kind of mindset.
00:44:45
Speaker
Like they should want to set you up in a way that looks after you in your old age.
00:44:49
Speaker
Like my father always had an inkling that he wasn't going to be here like to the end of, you know, a normal life, like 80, 90, etc.
00:44:57
Speaker
And so he always set it up for me and my mom to continue being expensive ladies because he was like, Oh my god, I don't know what's going to happen to the next guy if there is a next guy.
00:45:04
Speaker
So I might as well set you up.
00:45:06
Speaker
He's like, the poor next guy is going to have to deal with your expenses.
00:45:10
Speaker
I might as well set you up for life.
00:45:12
Speaker
And so he saw that as his responsibility and nobody else's responsibility.
00:45:16
Speaker
And I think that you would do well to pick a partner that does think about longevity.
00:45:21
Speaker
In sickness and in health, these kinds of vows that we make to each other
00:45:25
Speaker
They mean something.
00:45:26
Speaker
I think part of the reason I don't want to get married to just about anybody is because I actually do believe that there is something sacred in doing that.
00:45:32
Speaker
You know, I do believe that there is some value in doing that.
00:45:35
Speaker
And I think that a lot of us would do well to consider something sacred.
00:45:40
Speaker
I know we joke around a lot on this podcast and we should.
00:45:43
Speaker
We should definitely joke.
00:45:44
Speaker
But I think that when it comes to making choices like who is going to be the father of my kid, who am I going to get married to?
00:45:50
Speaker
Who am I co-parenting this child with if it doesn't work out?
00:45:53
Speaker
That person needs to have been a stellar person treating you well throughout, even if it didn't end well for whatever reason.
00:45:59
Speaker
We have no control over the longevity of a relationship, but you should hope that even if it does end, it ends with mutual respect and that you can count on that person and vouch for that person to show up as a partner when you have children, especially those children involved.
00:46:13
Speaker
And if that's what you're setting up yourself for, where you're like, I have this absent husband who doesn't really help me right now.
00:46:19
Speaker
That's what you should expect when you divorce him.
00:46:22
Speaker
Diana, such words of wisdom, such words of wisdom.
00:46:25
Speaker
I think we keep talking at length about this, but I'm glad we use this as an opportunity just as sort of a touchstone to remind women that, you know, as we're pursuing dating and we're pursuing romance and love, if that's what we're doing, you know, have the ability to recognize and discern what sort of nurturing abilities your partner is going to have.
00:46:45
Speaker
Because ultimately, it will have reverberations long after they're gone, whether it was in sickness or in health or not.
00:46:51
Speaker
So with that, I think we got to wrap it up, Diana.
00:46:53
Speaker
I love having this conversation with you.
00:46:56
Speaker
To the women who are mothers, happy Mother's Day.
00:46:58
Speaker
I hope you felt cherished and treasured.
00:47:01
Speaker
I hope you feel proud of the struggles and the sacrifices and the victories you've made.
00:47:05
Speaker
And to all the scrotes who are absolutely worthless in this regard, die fucking mad.
00:47:09
Speaker
Die mad.
00:47:11
Speaker
See you next week.