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The Four F's: FDS Strategies to Survive and Thrive
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What to do in situations that are not outright violent, that fall under the umbrella of plausible deniability, but that leave you feeling uncertain or fearful? Patricia and Rose discuss the four F's: Fight, Flight, Freeze, or Fawn, and how we can learn to say "no" with our whole chest.
"Isolate, Inebriate, Intimidate, Repeat": article link from the Journal of Interpersonal Violence
Thich Nhat Hanh youtube video on helping hungry ghosts
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Transcript
Introduction & Guest Excitement
00:00:01
Speaker
Welcome back to the Female Dating Strategy, the meanest female-only podcast on the internet. I'm your host, Patricia. And I'm your host, Rose. And Patricia, we just had a little powwow or tete-a-tete with Savannah and the inimitable OG herself, Ro, over the weekend. Can we just like share our joy in that briefly?
00:00:24
Speaker
Yeah, we were in the presence of royalty and she might be coming to record an episode with us, which we're very excited about. We're trying, ladies. like Savannah as well, she's a little more um she's a little more accessible in that she's willing to come back for like sort of irregular guest episodes, whereas Ro is like Mount Olympus. She's like Hera on Mount Olympus, almost all but inaccessible. But she's like, hey, if you guys want me to...
00:00:54
Speaker
I would be happy to come back for an
Listener Emails & Community Engagement
00:00:56
Speaker
episode. So we're trying to cook up something really special, but also we're catching up with the wonderful fucking backlog of emails that we got from ah Patricia's request for you to write into us with ideas and possible suggestions for yourself as ah as a co-host for a guest episode.
00:01:12
Speaker
It, I was reading through and it just blew my mind. I wish the listeners could read. Like the the fabulous array of listeners and lives of of people who tune into FDS. It really is' really impressive.
00:01:27
Speaker
Yeah, it was really cool. So we want to get, we're going to get back to you. May's almost over. So plan on hearing back from us by the end of June at the latest. I'm going to start getting email responses out in the next week or two. um And I can't get to everybody all at once, obviously, but we're we're working through them and you will hear from us if you reached out to us. Okay. So that's a promise ah we are giving to you. Thank you, Pam.
Understanding Low-Key Misconduct
00:01:51
Speaker
For today's episode, Patricia, please do us the honor of giving us a little intro. Yeah, I guess it's not a very happy, happy, um joy, joy topic, but I think it's it's important to discuss, ah maybe because of the fact that it's not talked about often.
00:02:09
Speaker
And it's, I kind of feel even wrong saying but it's like low-key sexual misconduct. I mean, these are things that are real, they happen a lot of the times with people that we know, but then you know, it's not like we're going to report to the police. It's not like we're going to make a big drama about it.
00:02:30
Speaker
But these are things that happen. And i want to share two stories. um And the second one kind of of elaborates on this concept that I want to talk about today, which is fawning.
00:02:43
Speaker
Right? So the first story is when I was kind of... almost 20, there was like friend that I had and another like male friend and another female friend. And we went with the male friends, a bunch of guys and us, to a camping trip.
00:03:00
Speaker
And then at night, I was drunk. I went to my tent to sleep. And this guy, who I never had any romantic anything, but like he never made any advancement on me, never asked me out for a date, nothing, just came to my tent and kind of tried to have sex with me, to have sex with me, kind of pretending that... I think he was hoping that I was too drunk to to understand what was happening and that I would just go with the flow.
00:03:31
Speaker
I was not that drunk at all. And i was like, ah, ha, ha, ha. What are you doing? Silly you. Come on. Come on. I'm just trying to get to sleep.
00:03:42
Speaker
And then he went out of my tent. We never spoke about it again. And i also like withdrew from him. So what was I doing there? I was fawning. I was in the face of something unpleasant. And what I did about it was to pretend that everything is chill.
00:03:57
Speaker
And this is in a way, um I don't mean to diss this strategy. I think that if this is something that comes to us naturally, and it is effective in protecting us, there is nothing wrong with employing that.
Exploring Fawning Response
00:04:13
Speaker
And the second story I want to tell is a story that my best friend told me about somebody that she thought was her friend. Years ago, she went to his house to smoke a doobie and he threw her on the bed.
00:04:28
Speaker
And for 20 minutes, he was trying to open her pants. fighting her while she's fawning. And she was like, oh, ha ha ha.
00:04:39
Speaker
Oh, come on. What are you doing? Oh, come on. Don't be silly. And luckily, I mean, this is tragic to say, but she says that luckily she had a type of pants that is not straightforward to to unzip.
00:04:51
Speaker
That it's only like, if you know the the hack. And imagine like 20 5, 10, 15, 20 minutes of this supposed game where she's trying to kick him off, but not in a confrontational way. And what she said to me, which i think sheds a lot of light about the fawning, is that...
00:05:13
Speaker
She was fawning because if she had been aggressive, then she leaves him with supposedly two choices, right? One is to buckle. Like, one is to stop what he's doing and then he's, like, defeated. And the second one is to become more aggressive.
00:05:32
Speaker
So, in a way... Yeah, exactly. So in this way, this fawning strategy, um meaning pretending that everything is fine and pretending that this is like a light interaction, is a safe strategy. And I do not mean to diss it.
00:05:52
Speaker
um I have more things to say, of course, but I would love to hear your thoughts, Rose. Um, you know, I just want to give, you know, me and, and, uh, definitions.
00:06:06
Speaker
You did a great job of explaining it, but I'm going to give the term this used in psychology to refer to a trauma response in behavioral psychology. Fawning refers to quote unquote, a stress response where an individual tries to avoid conflict by immediately pleasing, appeasing, or accommodating others.
00:06:29
Speaker
Women have been, this has been inbred into us for millennia. If this is your default, I think what we should do is give thanks to all of our female ancestors who survived and were able to pass this down to us because it has kept us alive for generations. Okay.
00:06:48
Speaker
I know back in the day I used to feel like a real loser because fawn was my default in a lot of situations. And I was like, man, I'm such a coward. Why couldn't I like square up and you know, blah, blah, blah. Like I i gave myself a really hard time because I thought somehow I was supposed to have like a male coded response to situations.
00:07:07
Speaker
But honestly, fawning has kept me alive. I've been in some really, really hairy situations. I mean, mortal situations and my ability to fawn got me out of there alive and unharmed.
00:07:22
Speaker
I'm sure a lot of us can relate to that statement, unfortunately. So again, like fawning is completely normal. It's completely natural. um And if that's what gets you out of a situation unharmed and or simply alive, sometimes you're harmed, but you're able to still be alive.
00:07:39
Speaker
That's ultimately the goal. We want you to survive, you know? I cannot imagine struggling. If it's effective in getting you out of harm's way, it works. Exactly.
00:07:50
Speaker
Then it does what it was intended to do. Exactly. i can't imagine struggling for almost a half an hour with somebody twice my weight while I'm on my back. on their bed. Like what a terrifying, amazing acting skills and survival response from your friend. My God.
00:08:09
Speaker
i think it's a smart something smart. Really? You both are. I think it's interesting that you're both like, Oh, you're being so silly. Ha ha ha. Like, You know, trying to downplay it and also code it as a playful game, you know, um because and what you're doing is you're allowing them to save face.
00:08:27
Speaker
Right. Yeah. we all know that men will want to save face to the extent that they will literally murder you to save face. um So, again, like we're dealing with really super serious situations here.
00:08:41
Speaker
um But, you know, it's like we run the gamut.
Consent Language Evolution
00:08:43
Speaker
There's a whole spectrum from like relatively innocuous. um I've had like ah somebody come in to do like an extermination service or a plumber or somebody comes in to fix my apartment.
00:08:55
Speaker
And now they're in my home. Now they know where I live. And all of a sudden they're trying to be flirty and they're trying to hit me up and they're making inappropriate comments and jokes. And it's like, what am I supposed to do I'm here alone as a client, as a paying customer.
00:09:10
Speaker
How am I supposed to get myself out of this situation unscathed? And almost always the default is going to be iPhone. It might be later that I call up their company and and file a report or make a complaint, et cetera. But even then I have to make the calculus. Like if this guy finds out the complaint was made, is he going to trace it back to me? He knows where I live. He might know, know the entrance code to my gate. Like all of these factors we have to take into consideration, which is utter bullshit, but that is, that is what it is to be a woman in the world.
00:09:40
Speaker
Um,
00:09:43
Speaker
I just, I hate that the world is like this for us, but it is a, it's a real thing. And, you know, i feel like we've had a lot more, um, A lot more attention has been brought, especially in the last 20 years, since then, since when I was a kid, had so many stories from my girlfriends about them losing their virginity, quote unquote, when it was really their boyfriend, just like date raping them.
00:10:04
Speaker
And now I look back on those stories and I'm like, Oh, I didn't even have that language. That language didn't exist back then. oh It was just like, oh you know, thought he was fingering me and then he put it in and it was like, oh, my God. Like, you know what i mean? Just these horror stories. And of course, we just use the very juvenile language. We don't have sex education in the States or if we do, it's very poor.
00:10:27
Speaker
i look back on these stories and I'm like, oh these poor girls. And this is like an entire generation of women. You know? um So we have more language around like rape, I think now, but even so, I feel like these, we call them gray areas, but they're not, if it were in any other realm other than like women's, um,
00:10:51
Speaker
I guess like women's violence,
Impacts of Misconduct & Societal Pressures
00:10:54
Speaker
women's attacks, women's harassment. If a man was trying to wrestle you down and tear off your clothes and you were like at work, this would be classified as assault and it would be prosecuted without a moment's notice. There would be,
00:11:07
Speaker
no, there would be no point at which that process would be like questioned or invalidated, but somehow miraculously, because it's between a man and a woman and a woman was egressed against or aggressed against all of a sudden it's like, well, what what was, it was he, was he really doing? Are you trying to ruin a young man's life? you know, every woman knows what the responses are. We've all heard them.
00:11:30
Speaker
Yeah, and even if you don't consider going to authorities, like what I would like to bring forth today is that um our response to this, especially if it's... like These cases ah that I'm trying to illustrate are the ones that are with people that we know and kind of like stay in our circles or friends of friends.
00:11:50
Speaker
And then indeed, it's not always in our benefit just because like we already had a shitty night. We don't want to have more shit times, right?
00:12:01
Speaker
So what I'm trying to say is it's not always in our benefit to, for instance, I'm just giving an example. Start talking to the friend that introduced you to that friend and tell him what a scumbag that guy is. like You don't have to do anything that like disturbs your peace. your Your peace was already disturbed.
00:12:24
Speaker
What trying to say is something a bit different that sometimes... this fawning that we do at the moment of the danger that we do to protect ourselves. And as both Rose and I stated, this is a valid and effective response.
00:12:40
Speaker
The problem is that sometimes we continue the fawning into the rest of our lives and pretend that something is okay when it's not. And this is something that I would like to invite our listeners to consider that it's your prerogative.
00:12:58
Speaker
to say and to decide that something was wrong. And that doesn't mean that you need to go and chase the person or create quote unquote drama or do anything that isn't beneficial to you.
00:13:11
Speaker
But if you see that person, You can give him stare as if he's dead, as if he's no more solid than the air around him, as if he's disgusting because he is all those things or ignore him.
00:13:25
Speaker
You don't have to keep fawning after the event happened. And this is something I would, some some people tend to do because it's somehow easier because it's also It's not nice to live in a reality where this thing happened.
00:13:43
Speaker
And then if you keep phoning and pretending that everything is fine, then you kind of ignore that. But it's not it's not actually helpful. you're just You're doing mental labor for somebody else to have somebody else not be offended or not feel bad.
00:13:58
Speaker
They should feel bad. They should. And if all of the sex is you ignoring their stare, awesome. I like this point. This is such a valid point. ah You know, if I could have a parallel example that I want to give, it's not sexual assault related, but it is related to like, you know, I have a, I have a family member, a brother who's always been very abusive to me physically and otherwise.
00:14:25
Speaker
And i think the last event that we got to as a family member, you know, at first, I fell into the the role. I fell into the script and I was amiable and greeted him politely and was congenial And as the event went on and he continued to be his usual asshole boorish self, I got angrier and angrier and angrier. And this was healthy. Like therapy was helping me embrace that anger.
00:14:51
Speaker
course. And by the end of the day, i had i had cut him directly to his face. I had stopped responding to him and his insults. I refused to say goodbye or look him at look at him at all as he left. And that was the last I ever talked to him.
00:15:06
Speaker
Wow, that's pretty dramatic, but it's also a perfect example. Right? Yeah, it's a perfect example. You don't owe it to anybody to be kind or to be nice.
00:15:16
Speaker
This is a bad part of our socialization as women that benefits the patriarchy because then if we're always expected to be nice and then if we're not nice, we're kind of like bad people.
00:15:28
Speaker
You're not a bad person. If you're acting out of your own self-interest and are not trying hard to make somebody else feel better, that actively made you feel bad.
00:15:38
Speaker
You don't owe it to anybody else to make them feel comfortable. You don't. Exactly. And it was like, at first I was like, oh, I'm going to, I'm going to be polite. It was, it was at a actually it was at a funeral for my godmother.
00:15:52
Speaker
And I was like, oh, it's her funeral. The respectful thing is to like, you know, play along and do, do the, do the pretty, as we say in English. And he was still such an asshole, even in spite of me being decent to him. And I was like, what's the fucking point I'm over this. Like I i changed my, I changed up mid
Anger as Protective Response
00:16:11
Speaker
conversation among the group we were in with him.
00:16:13
Speaker
And I know he noticed because then when he tried to say, you know, goodbye later and I ignored him, I could just tell how furious he was. And I was like, yeah, I want to, I want you to have a little taste of this.
00:16:25
Speaker
The rules of engagement have changed. Yeah. if you continually rebuff advances to be civil and polite at the bare minimum, you no longer deserve to be acknowledged.
00:16:38
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Because a lot of the times... men kind of fall back and count on you or other women being, making an effort to be nice. Cause otherwise you would be the wrong one, right? You would be like not acting according to societal norms or bitchy.
00:16:59
Speaker
Yep. Yep. Exactly. Exactly. And I mean, and it was obvious that he noted it because I've never been, I mean, I can try.
00:17:10
Speaker
it takes a lot for me to be bitchy. It's almost impossible, to be honest. Like, yeah it's it's kind of a joke amongst the people that know me. They're just like, oh you couldn't be bitch if you tried. I'm like, I'm trying, I'm trying. But it we really have to get me to such a level of fury. And that's honestly what most of these men who transgress against us, that's what you have to learn how to embrace. I know it feels scary.
00:17:33
Speaker
i know it feels, you know, antithetical to your nature because society and culture and religion, et cetera, have all conspired to keep us away from that very powerful, very potent anger that is a protector of us.
00:17:46
Speaker
Oftentimes, if you're angry, it's for a goddamn good reason. And there's no reason on earth that you should have to shelter and protect others from that fury that they have rightfully earned.
00:17:57
Speaker
you know Well said. Thank you. Yes. I really, when you've been wronged enough, I think, either you Either you just buckle down and you give in and you and you become a shell of yourself or you learn to expand and fill up and really take ownership of the fact that like you're a full human being with the full range of human emotions. None of them have a moral value.
00:18:19
Speaker
They're in response to situations and stimuli that create that response within you. This is nothing that you should feel ashamed of feeling. You know, again, this is a lot of therapy, Patricia, like like a decade.
00:18:31
Speaker
um So please, listeners, if you're not there yet, again, this isn't a reason for you to beat yourself up. But I want you to start to understand that like these are protective mechanisms for your own safety, for your own benefit, for your own health and well-being. I mean, a lot of a lot of us what that push down the hurt and the anger and the sorrow, these become...
00:18:51
Speaker
chronic health issues. They become autoimmune issues. i think some of it turns into cancer. Like so cannot convince me that these aren't diseases that are visited upon us because we're not allowed the full breadth of our human experience. Well, true. isn't Unpleasant for others.
00:19:08
Speaker
Yeah, or because we exist in a society that applies some kind of norms, more so on women in terms of like behavior and repercussions for behavior. But exactly as you said, Rose, we are like feminism in its...
00:19:24
Speaker
depth is just recognizing that a woman is a full human. If you are a full human, you shouldn't be subjected or like bound in a prison of a certain behavior.
00:19:35
Speaker
And yes, if somebody is not nice to you, if somebody is imposing on you or maybe your friend, has some kind of sexual expectations or wants you to give him some kind of special attention,
00:19:46
Speaker
why you are totally based in a walking away as you said rose walking away is such a power move generally like here in fds the deep truth that we're conveying is that a woman's presence is valuable and as soon as you understand that fully fully and feel it in your being how just sharing your presence your energy in the space is so valuable you'll also understand at the same time that withdrawing that withdrawing your attention withdrawing your presence that is <unk> power move that is the bitch boss power move yes yes yes
00:20:36
Speaker
those I just love it, Patricia. I love it so much because i mean, it's just taken me so long. And I, I mean, here I am 45, I turned 45 in March and life has never been better.
00:20:52
Speaker
I've never had more power, more self-determination, more luxury and blessings. You know, I've just, it's just been like a win after win after win, knock on wood, knock on wood. But, um,
00:21:07
Speaker
I think it's because I finally started to internalize these lessons and like live by
Embracing Strength & Boundaries
00:21:12
Speaker
them. And I want our listeners to understand that like at any moment, at any time you can pivot, even if that's been your whole life that you've been the pleaser, the people pleaser, which I was like the mega boss of people pleasing. Um,
00:21:28
Speaker
you you can In mid-stride, you can pivot and walk away from that behavior. And it will be ah it's an atrophied muscle, but it's still there. And the more you use it, the stronger it gets.
00:21:39
Speaker
you know I mean, your life gets so much better. and This can happen at any point at any time in your life. It's never too late. Never. So true. And i i want to illustrate even further the point of the more you practice it, like every time that you stand up for yourself, even if it's like a small one, you see like at first, the first time you do it, you're like really tense and clenched and you're like worried that the reciprocant of your boundary would be like, oh what the hell are you even talking about? Right? This is always like our negative fantasy.
00:22:15
Speaker
And then like time passes, you get the text back saying, oh yeah, that's fair. And then this is now you live in a world where you have set a boundary and it was okay, it was received.
00:22:31
Speaker
And now you are existing in that world. You know what I mean? And then it's it's like an iterative process that every time you do it, you not only build that muscle, you become the person who does that.
00:22:44
Speaker
You become the person who is that. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm. That's such, I like that. It's an iterative process. Yeah. It's like, it's, what is it? A tautology? You are because it is.
00:23:00
Speaker
What does that mean? it You become the thing. it becomes the thing that you say is the thing. So if you're like, I am,
00:23:12
Speaker
someone who meets injustice with righteous fury but by saying that you become that it it's like it's a self-fulfilling statement and it's this it's the same with an action by doing the thing you are the thing if you're somebody who stands up to injustice That's who you are.
00:23:35
Speaker
And ah it sounds overly simplistic. I oftentimes think like humans have a hard time. We all have a hard time with things that are simple actually being true. We're like, no, it has to be much more complicated. There has to be like. No, actually the truth is always very simple and you know it. means Yes. Yes. um So I think that's something that ah is such a good point where it's just like by doing the thing, by by this iterative act, you become that thing.
00:24:04
Speaker
It's so powerful, but it is so simple and it can be the smallest thing. Like I think I've told this example before, ah Patricia, remember the kid in Chile who like littered on the ground and I went over to him and I was like, the garbage is over there.
00:24:20
Speaker
and then I pointed at the garbage and I stared at him until he picked it up and put it in the garbage. That's some, that's some pretty intense stuff. That's like a dance level. It's not for great stuff, you know? No, it's not. It's not. Like ah the the rose from from five years prior could never, would never.
00:24:39
Speaker
But, and especially ah in another language, no less, that wasn't my native language, you know? But like, I hate, i hate with a passion littering. I just, it brings me to an elemental rage. It's like, you know, when you go super Saiyan and like the flames start shooting from your head?
00:24:57
Speaker
but like That's like what happens to be what I see littering. And I almost can't stop myself. I've actually had to learn how to stop myself a little bit in Chicago because people get really rowdy.
00:25:09
Speaker
If you're like, hey, that that that's not a trash can. You know, people can get real, real offended by that. So I've had to be a and I'm a white lady, so I've had to temper that a little bit depending on where I'm at.
00:25:20
Speaker
But ah these are things that like the more you practice it or like the other day I was at this really nice restaurant, like, like, you know, $400 a meal restaurant. My friends were treating me out for my birthday. This was a really special occasion. And this kid, this, these, this family with kids there at a very upscale, elegant restaurant, this kid was screaming and shouting.
00:25:43
Speaker
And finally, at a certain point, the school teacher in me came out and I shushed him loudly. um
00:25:53
Speaker
My friends were like, Rose, you can't do that. I'm like, I literally just did it. So it's done.
00:26:00
Speaker
They're oh, my gosh, I can't believe you did that. And of course, like the kid's mom turned around and glared at me because God forbid she actually, you know, parent her child. No, better to better to glare at the disturbed customer who's paying hundreds of dollars to eat at this fine establishment who is disturbed by her child who's screaming. And this is a kid who's like 12. It's not like he's a little baby. You know, it's not a fine dining vibe to bring your chatting kids.
00:26:24
Speaker
That's what I'm saying. You know, it's like, this is not, this is not a Chili's or an Applebee's or a McDonald's. This is a really, this is a special occasion restaurant that people go to because they want to dress up. They want to put on their, you know, their makeup. They want to look their best. People are taking pictures for like the Instagram. I mean, it's a whole thing, you know? And so I was just like, no, this is unacceptable.
00:26:45
Speaker
But my girlfriends were all just like, oh my gosh, I can't believe you did that Rose. And I'm like, I will be the one that does it. And I will never stop being that person because I built that muscle up, you know? and You know, I've talked before about like when people need to be shamed, I'm the one who's like, I can't wait. I'm happy to shame them. It's a hobby for me. My kink is shaming. There's so much shame worthy behavior happening now in this world. I'm like, why is everybody behaving so shamelessly? Well, because at some point we somehow convince women that they shouldn't shame others. We used to be the shaming brigade. That was like one of the few powers that were allocated to us.
00:27:20
Speaker
back when we were like supposed to be in the home and out of sight of the public. like Our job was to shame people who stepped out of line. At some point, we were like, no, women can't do that anymore. Don't be a Karen. And now look at the world. It's gone to shit. know what? I was thinking about exactly that from the episode that we did a few weeks back.
00:27:39
Speaker
ah Please do go ahead and listen to it. It's one of my favorites. It's called My King is Shaming. And indeed, we were talking about how... Back then, if we take that as an example of a more gendered, structured time where women had only specific roles that they can fill, they indeed imposed repercussions for behaviors that they disliked by, if you think about it, they also withdrew attention, right? Because if somebody was acting wrong, they would talk about it and then all of them would not say hi to him.
00:28:15
Speaker
They would not invite him. And this is low-key, but it it is tormenting. like You know that it tormented that person, but on its face, it's a very subtle.
00:28:28
Speaker
And it's very feminine, also because it's kind of like coy and low-key, but it's also it's not costing you anything. In the same way that men try to do things that they can get away with because they know that they're under the threshold of discovery.
00:28:43
Speaker
Stuff like that. Like ignoring somebody, staring at somebody like with a blank face, um passing something around and not not addressing him. You know, these like small disses that you can't be called out on, but you know that they stay in
00:29:06
Speaker
Yes. I like your parallel example. Like, you know, so many men do gross things like look us up and down and purse their lips or like, you know, make noises at us when we're just walking down. It's like, there's so many things. I don't have to go into the examples. You all know what I'm talking about.
00:29:22
Speaker
And it's a level of plausible deniability that we really can't call it out. Although I would, because again, that's just me. But you don't have to, and it's too exhausting to have to go through the world and call out all of you know the gross misbehavior that is directed at us because we're just women.
00:29:38
Speaker
But similarly, like Patricia's talking about, we have our own tools of the trade. to call them out and to ah be un... irreproachable in our behavior. Just impose your precautions. This is like something so substantial that I learned from FDS that the best way to impose a precaution on a man is to withdraw your attention.
Repercussions for Wrongdoing
00:30:04
Speaker
Like, yes once I let that seep in fully, that it's like a game changer, really. And sometimes even like, i don't know, there was a guy that I was dating, I was upset with him, and I was...
00:30:16
Speaker
About to write him a long message about how it's not okay that he invited me, but then they didn't give me the date. And then, you know what I did? i did not send that message, of course.
00:30:28
Speaker
And then I proceeded to ignore him for the next months until he was like begging me. He was like, I miss you so much. are you not talking to me?
00:30:39
Speaker
You know, because he needed to suffer. And this is the way to make him suffer. The way to make him suffer is not send him a long message saying, dadadadada I'm offended. yeah If you're offended, that is based.
00:30:51
Speaker
You are based and you're being offended. And the way to impose repercussions for being wronged is to withdraw your attention, withdraw your texting back, withdraw your talking to him, withdraw your interest in him, withdraw meeting him.
00:31:08
Speaker
This is the heaviest repercussions that you can employ. employee And then when you see his text and when you see that he's trying to see you, That's a great moment.
00:31:19
Speaker
Because then you know that he's suffering. It's just, I love it. but I do too, because you know what? You know what? It involves zero of your time, attention, or energy.
00:31:31
Speaker
No, it does take energy. It does take energy, but it's a mindset shift. It still takes energy because you're you're like, you employ this, like, Let's get back to what we were talking about in this episode. Like if you're wronged by somebody in in like a sexual misconduct, like somebody that you think is your friend or a friend of a friend is trying to rape you or trying to like caress you in a way that is sexual when there is not the thing between you, it does cost energy.
00:32:01
Speaker
Whether you fawn or you freeze or like first of all, I'm sorry if that happens to you, but it costs energy because it's something that's done to you that is at its base wrong.
00:32:13
Speaker
That is wrong. What I'm saying is that the the more powerful tool is that. The more powerful tool is to ignore and to make them feel like they're insignificant, disgusting. You don't want anything to do with them because you don't.
00:32:29
Speaker
And by the way, if you feel like going and shouting at him and telling him that he's a piece of shit, go ahead. I'm just saying better to ignore than to pretend on something then that nothing happened.
00:32:44
Speaker
But if you have it in you, to call him out and to tell him you should be ashamed of yourself, then of course, go for it. Yeah, it's like they're like degrees of difficulty, right? if If the greatest degree of difficulty for you is simply withholding your smiling niceness because that's your default, work on that. That's where you're at right now. There's nothing wrong with that. That's already a powerful sto tool. okay that's already a powerful step to be taking for your own development, right? very true Because you're honoring your own purpose.
00:33:15
Speaker
truth of the situation, not the truth of the situation, you're honoring the fact that he is not worthy of any social niceties, okay? He's had it revoked through his own misbehavior. Yeah, exactly. You're not doing anything out of the ordinary. You're just honoring your own emotions and your own instincts. That's all. That's all there is to it. It's just subtracting this thing that we were imposed on by our socialization, which is trying to be nice, thinking about other people's feelings. It's only subtracting that falseness. Yeah.
00:33:43
Speaker
Yeah. I'm going to give you another example that's maybe a little more relatable. One of my good friends here in the city, i met her through the university. She was working in admin and helped me get some really great scholarships and We just really hit it off and we become friends ever since. So over a 10 year friendship, she's from the the area. She's from Chicagoland. So of course she has family and friends that date back decades, right? Whereas I'm a transplant, I'm much newer.
00:34:08
Speaker
So she's invited me into her home, into her family, into her community, and has been very gracious in helping me make new friendships with really wonderful people. But there's this one guy in her circle that And, you know, when you go to these events, you're all kind of sitting around a table or like somebody's moving in the living room, somebody else is in the kitchen and you have like little small clusters of conversations, right? It's like maybe two, or three, four people in a cluster. Yeah.
00:34:34
Speaker
And every time I'd be talking to my girlfriend, he'd come up and want to talk to her and only talk to her. And for years and years, I tried to be a part of the conversation, to include him in the conversation that we were already having, to include him and make him feel like a part of whatever little circle he was joining.
00:34:55
Speaker
But this man never once looked me in the eye. As far as he was concerned, I did not exist. For the longest time, I was like, what am I doing wrong?
00:35:06
Speaker
Am I, you know, does he just think, do I smell? Like, you know, yeah all this self insecurity would come through. Right. And I was like, I just have to try harder. Oh, honey. That was pre that was pre therapy. Okay. Yeah.
00:35:20
Speaker
Finally, it it came through to me like for whatever reason, i don't care what. He didn't like me. I disgusted him. I wasn't pretty enough. You know, there are those guys who only ever want to talk to pretty girls, even if it's like they they they think that they're in a friend zone. They're still going to give their attention to the pretty girl and nobody else exists. And I think that's what the situation was.
00:35:39
Speaker
In any case, finally, a couple years back, I started to actively ignore him. And when he tried to join the conversation, i my body, I wouldn't acknowledge him. i wouldn't respond to him. i also kept having the conversation with my friends that we were already having. He was the one interrupting.
00:35:56
Speaker
And boy, when I tell you the look on his face, when I started to, when I stopped extending that the social niceties and the graces that I yeah understood it in a heartbeat and boy, did his tune change Patricia. Yeah. How did it change?
00:36:10
Speaker
Well, now now he's trying to talk to me. Now he's trying to include me. Now he's looking to me. yeah hu Oh, my God. These people are so insecure. They feel so unsure about their place in the pecking order that they need to create this like elaborate scheme in their mind.
00:36:28
Speaker
And then once you start ignoring him, then you're above him in the pecking order. So he's trying to make nice to you. It was so, it was just like, wow, this is, this is all I had to be doing this whole time. But again, it took so long for the penny to drop. It was like, there was no way in hell a couple years prior I could have ever even attempted that mentality shift. It just, it wouldn't have computed, but this was, this was after FDS. I had found FDS.
00:36:54
Speaker
And it heard and started to internalize some of FDS tenets. And so at the next gathering, i we were at her birthday party and it was a karaoke birthday party. And I always kill a karaoke. I mean, I'm a professional musician. Like it's nice nothing noteworthy. Right. But but so I was getting faded. Right. Like everybody, I was getting fangirls from people because of my awesome karaoke skills. And he wanted to come in and join that and like, you know, relish in the in the glow. And I was just like, he didn't exist to me. And boy, did his tune change. And it was just like, oh, okay. FDS was right. How did you feel? The whole time.
00:37:30
Speaker
How did you feel? You know, it felt freeing. Actually, it felt really liberating because instead of all that energy and all that concern about what was I doing wrong? Why didn't he like me? How should i try to you know, a ingratiate or endear myself to him? It was just like, nope, this is a, this is a dead end. And I'm, and I refuse to sit here anymore.
00:37:54
Speaker
That's super nice. I love that story. i also wonder, um, did it like when you were doing your rationalization about it and figuring out your new route, which is indeed more, um energy effective, energy efficient.
00:38:09
Speaker
Did you also think about how this person is acting like that because he has very low self-esteem?
00:38:18
Speaker
Well, I, you know, I wondered, and and a part of me actually even wondered later on if he was secretly attracted to me and had some feelings about that because he's a very conventionally attractive, tall, blonde, blue eyed white man.
00:38:33
Speaker
who I think is relatively successful in his life. And I think he's used to being fawned over. um And so I wouldn't be surprised if there is, because of course being a man is also like to always feel like you're never at the
Analyzing Harmful Behavior
00:38:45
Speaker
top of things. You're always battling to be at the top because you think it's a zero sum game.
00:38:49
Speaker
Um, but then a part of me was also like, you know what, what if he actually, he thinks I'm really attractive and he can't handle it. And he has feelings about that. And that's just, and that none of it has to do anything with me whatsoever.
00:39:00
Speaker
That could also be a real possibility, you know, but I don't know. And I don't fucking care if you can't treat me with common decency. I don't care anymore. It doesn't matter. You're like, you're, you no longer your persona non grata.
00:39:12
Speaker
Yeah, of course. I mean, the motives behind somebody's behaviors are a very, very small part of your considerations. They should be like 10%. 90% of your considerations is what somebody's behavior, how somebody's behavior is affecting you.
00:39:28
Speaker
And that may be 10%, like, he acting in malice? Is he actually just confused, misguided, whatever. It's a very, very small part of the story. I would say, like, maybe we have it in a way reverse.
00:39:42
Speaker
in our society. We're very very like obsessed with people's motives and we don't stop to say, like oh, but how does it make me feel? like I don't like this behavior.
00:39:55
Speaker
And it doesn't really matter where it's coming from. Absolutely right. We need to flip it on its head. And I think, again, that was where FDS was very effective for me because I was somebody who was always doing like the therapizing of other people, including my own family members. Like, why is this brother like this? Maybe if I just do that, finally, it was like, listen, for whatever reason, he despises me and I don't need to know why. i don't need to know why, because all I need to know is that it makes me feel like the lowest of the low. And there is no acceptable excuse for any family member to make me feel this way ever.
00:40:27
Speaker
Yeah. And that's what completely changed my behavior ultimately. Yeah. But MDS really stresses that. Do not therapize. It doesn't actually matter. The only thing that matters is what it does to you and how it makes you feel and what it does for your life.
00:40:42
Speaker
Yeah, I would say that it's sometimes an interesting, like, I don't know, intellectual exercise after you've figured out that somebody's behavior is affecting you in a negative way, it is unacceptable to you and you don't want that in your life, then you can also have some space for like,
00:41:00
Speaker
ah like let's say a relationship like a ah relationship that I had that ended badly, i know with time that he had a Madonna horror complex and it's not my fault that, like it's not my fault anyways that he couldn't love me, but he actually couldn't.
00:41:18
Speaker
He was actually messed up in the head. So understanding that, was kind of like a nice finishing but the 90 important percent was that i was like okay I'm done I'm breaking up with this person because he does he makes me feel like shit yeah yeah o that's such a good point yeah because listen let's be real like we're humans we're gonna want to try and understand things it's in our nature um And that's all well and good, but save it like for the postmortem when they're no longer in your lives and you've got some more emotional distance, right? That might also provide some clarity.
00:41:53
Speaker
And that's totally fine. That is true because we're when we're in emotional turmoil, trying to understand the other person's motives might feel like we're understanding ourselves, but we're actually not.
00:42:04
Speaker
You've got to kind of pay attention to how warm your thoughts are. Like, is the pace of your thoughts very, very fast? Yeah. and very intense. Are you very reactive?
00:42:15
Speaker
Are you reaching for your phone? Are you like going to the fridge and trying to see what there is to eat, although you're you're not feeling hungry? Like try to see if you're, are you now triggered?
00:42:26
Speaker
If you're now triggered, don't make any big decisions. Wait, sit with your feelings, try to relax, try to maybe do something else. um Because I'm going to quote my favorite Buddhist monk, favorite Buddhist monk.
00:42:41
Speaker
Some problems don't need to be resolved. They need to be dissolved. And when you're in a very intense emotional state, you just need to sit with it for a while and then you can make decisions.
00:42:56
Speaker
This is why I love the Buddhist. Who's your favorite monk? Ajahn Sona. He's so wise. It's Canadian, actually. Oh, my gosh. I'm going to pick this up because I was just listening to Thich Nhat Hanh over the weekend um talking about ah what do you do with hungry ghosts?
00:43:15
Speaker
Hungry ghosts? Please share. Yeah. Yeah. Well, he talked about, he's like, you might meet many hungry ghosts in your lifetime. He's like, I met this young woman who was a hungry ghost who had never been loved in a way that she needed. She had never been understood or supported.
00:43:30
Speaker
And she went through life trying to find something, anything to make her feel real. Wow. Wow. Right. And then he just, then his whole topic goes into, you know, what do you do with hungry ghosts? Because that's just a part of being in the world.
00:43:51
Speaker
um And it was so beautiful and just had me sort of like, it just had my compassion increasing for the world. You know, there's just, there are so many hungry ghosts and,
00:44:02
Speaker
No one can save them. Like it's up to them to, to become real to themselves and to seek, you know, their own self-actualization. But what can you do as a, as like a a loving non-attachment?
00:44:15
Speaker
And so he went into that. Um, and I think, especially with men, you know, instead of calling them low value men, you know, we can just call them hungry ghosts because they look to women for, for warmth and love and nourishment. And, but it doesn't matter because if you're a hungry ghost, you'll never be filled. Cause what he talked about was you might pour all of your love and energy and affection and, and reassurance into them, but they have a very small throat and So they can't receive what you give them. They can only receive a very small drops of what you actually are pouring into them.
00:44:56
Speaker
And in the meantime, you're bankrupting your own self, right? So again, these are just, um I can always include this in the in the show notes, but I'd love that you bring it up because I'm just like, yeah, I was just like, I was just doing some meditating on that this weekend. You know, I love YouTube because it has such great lectures and tutorials that you don't otherwise never have access to, you know?
00:45:14
Speaker
That's super interesting. And I'd like to like bring us into a full circle. And then um maybe you can share the article did you that was published ah a couple of months ago. yeah Yeah.
00:45:26
Speaker
So touching on what you said about compassion, i also try to practice that in my life. And if somebody acts in the wrong way about me or so does something that doesn't please me, for instance,
00:45:37
Speaker
Even like more than that, ah like I'll give a concrete example. I was walking down the street when I was on crutches and maybe I wasn't on crutches, but I was in so much pain that I might as well have been. And somebody was trying to like,
00:45:52
Speaker
you know, crossed, like, continue on the path while, continue on the street while I was crossing. And he was, like, honking. And then when he passed by, he, like, shouted, like, took down his window and shouted.
00:46:04
Speaker
And this is, I got so pissed off. I got so upset. I was like, I can't believe how people are behaving.
00:46:14
Speaker
And I started feeling like this like huge locomotive engine in my brain started exploding. Now I remembered what I learned in my Buddhism podcast that is... um I can understand where this person is coming from.
00:46:31
Speaker
Like he wanted to get my attention. He wanted to feel like a man. So this is how he did it. But, and this is the important part. I am now at a place in my life where I feel like the most, like a very advanced spiritual place to be in is on the one hand, acknowledge that what was done to you was wrong.
00:46:56
Speaker
wrong, unacceptable. And at the same time, you can understand why the person did it and you understand that it's not personal, it doesn't have anything to do with you. And like in a way, it's not exactly forgiving because it's not, maybe it's forget, forgive, but not forget. I'm not really sure, but it's like you can hold these two things at the time.
00:47:18
Speaker
You can say this was wrong, I also understand why the person did it because he's a flawed human. For instance, in the context of this episode, I understand why this person tried to caress my boob while I was passed out at a party, something that happened to my friend.
00:47:36
Speaker
And I understand that he didn't do it because he wanted to hurt me. He did it because he was also looking for company. I know he's attracted to me, but he's not he knows that nothing can ever happen between us.
00:47:47
Speaker
And he was kind of using this gray zone but he didn't intend to hurt me. You can understand. You can understand the motives of the person and kind of have compassion for it.
00:48:04
Speaker
And at the same time, you can also say, this was wrong. This was not okay. This is unacceptable. And those two things can exist at the same time.
00:48:18
Speaker
So well said. That's absolutely true. And I think that's actually one of the things that the Buddha has said is like the hallmark of an enlightened mind is that this can be true and that can be true all at the same time.
00:48:31
Speaker
Right. You can hold those two truths, even if you could hold two conflicting truths together at the same time.
Balancing Conflicting Truths
00:48:38
Speaker
Let's all aspire to that as the Buddha would have us. Yeah. If you're up for it. Okay. The article that she's mentioning, I was saying to her, I'm so glad we were talking about this today because I just read this article.
00:48:49
Speaker
Let me pull it up in front of me. It's from the journal of interpersonal violence. We're going to include the link in the, in the show notes. And the title is isolate, inebriate, intimidate, repeat.
00:49:04
Speaker
High rates of sexual force against women are reported when young men given anonymous surveys. Can you just, before you jump into the information, ah translate each one of the words because they're quite like high vocabulary.
00:49:18
Speaker
Okay. Isolate. Get you alone. Yeah. Mm-hmm. inebriate the classic let's go out for a drink for a date which fds is vehemently opposed to for this very reason intimidate uh whether through ah words or physical force making it clear that if you say no bad things will happen that's the intimidate yeah and repeat to do any of these enough times until they're able to accomplish what they want against your will
00:49:53
Speaker
What's I'm just going to read this abstract if that's yeah with you. Now, um, few studies survey men who have remained undetected after engaging in acts of sexual aggression against women.
00:50:07
Speaker
Most survey women who were targets of sexual aggression or else survey men who consent to being identified Using anonymous surveys of 2,689 U.S.
Prevalence of Sexual Aggression
00:50:21
Speaker
and Canadian men between the ages to eighteen to thirty four we aimed to assess rates of self-reported sexual aggression reports of strategy effectiveness at forcing known reluctant women into sex. they knew They knew these women were reluctant and still wanted to compel them regardless. This is fascinating. Also like a really big research group, right? Like over two and a half thousand people. Yeah, almost 3000 people. Yeah, I know some people will be like, that's a really small survey group. Well, good luck. Okay, good luck getting survey results. If you've ever tried to do that, you know how very difficult it is.
00:50:59
Speaker
um and men's views of the circumstances, motivations, and positive and negative outcomes. Men reported occasions where they tried to get a woman to engage in sex who they knew she did not want and to which she had not consented.
00:51:15
Speaker
The women were individuals with whom the men shared no prior romantic or sexual history. Overall,
00:51:25
Speaker
95.1% reported having used at least one, excuse me, at least one of the strategies to get a woman to have sex who they knew did not want sex and had not consented.
00:51:39
Speaker
Most of these occasions, 65% resulted in successfully forcing the woman into sex. All of the 36 strategies generated from formative work were reported by at least some men. The average number ever used was 8.94. In other words, most men used at least nine of these 36 strategies that the research had had identified. This is sort fascinating. like Right? Troubling AF, but fascinating.
00:52:09
Speaker
Exactly. this was um This was just published in April of 2026. So this is a very new study. Consistent physical pressure and verbal coercion were common. Overt force, including physical restraint and use of pain, was less common, but not uncommon.
00:52:26
Speaker
Men who viewed themselves as better than same-aged male peers, quote, at getting what they want sexually from women, end quote, used more forceful strategies. Wait, can you repeat that? Men who perceive themselves as what?
00:52:41
Speaker
As better than same-age male peers, then better than their male peers at getting what they want from women. So they were more likely to use force, physical force.
00:52:53
Speaker
Exactly right. um They reported many positive outcomes from these interactions. In other words, they reported getting the sexual satisfaction that they wanted from willingly from knowing women who are unwilling.
00:53:09
Speaker
Most perceived no negative outcomes.
00:53:14
Speaker
Um, I'm not going to go into this. It's quite a long article and there's a lot to digest. I'm already traumatized. I know. I know. do you know what actually brought, um, one of the things that really scared me about this article was how many women men used as friends to pressure, coerce, and to isolate their intended victims. Oh, can you tell me more about that?
00:53:39
Speaker
I'm going to, I'm going to, reference the article i want you to go read the article because i don't think i'm going to do it justice but in many of the cases you know they talked about 36 strategies that they that they identified yeah at least four or five of them were like getting their women friends to either get a date with the woman they wanted to have sex with or to like get her alone into their room is this i'm i'm is this like mostly college and stuff like that It said men 18 to 34 years. Yeah. 34 is not college.
00:54:13
Speaker
genius Exactly. Exactly. so I'm going to be including this in the notes. But I mean, it goes to show that men are very aware and they rely on us being unaware. Really? Yeah, that's actually a really, really good point. i was like still in shock mode.
00:54:28
Speaker
But indeed, like the indeed, this shows the level of self-awareness. Right. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Exactly. and That's why this article, I was like, i had a lot of I kind of had these, i already had these inclinations and these inklings and I suspected many of this, but to have it so clearly laid out in such you know an academic way.
00:54:48
Speaker
journal and it's such a it's such a ah systematic methodology for format um was absolutely jaw-dropping. And I'm really hoping we to see more and more of these because we're always talking about women and and what it's been like to be addressed ah violated. What about the violators? Why do we know nothing?
00:55:08
Speaker
They're all around us, apparently, 95% of the survey, of the self-reported anonymous surveyed survey. Individuals. So this is a lot of information. um Again, I'm just so happy we're starting to see actual data coming out of academic articles and journals.
00:55:28
Speaker
It pays for us to be informed. And that's why whether it's fight, freeze, or fawn, however we have to deal with it to get out alive, do what we have to do, but also like forewarned is forearmed.
Strategies Against Coercion & Solidarity
00:55:43
Speaker
What does that mean? Knowing ahead of time allows you to be prepared in case of emergency. Okay. So how will that come into play in these situations, in your opinion?
00:55:54
Speaker
Because you go through and you see what the 36 strategies are that are identified. oh And you see you see what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, now I get you.
00:56:05
Speaker
Okay, cool. I'll read it too. But this is the more reason to to educate or like to proliferate this perception that we are entitled to say no. like It is our prerogative.
00:56:18
Speaker
Exactly but that's right. that's not me trying to say that like the victims of these guys didn't know that they can say no, of course. Right. And that's the thing. is like So the table two...
00:56:31
Speaker
is ah table two, strategies used by men to get unwilling and non-consenting women to have sex. And then they list 36 strategies. So go through and read them and see how familiar some of these are and be unsurprised at how much pressure and intimidation you've had to navigate as a woman who just wanted to explore her budding sexuality.
00:56:55
Speaker
You know, we should be able to explore and be safe. But a lot of times being in these situations, as you all know, ah could lead to some really unwelcome outcomes. So let's get informed. Let's spread the word. Let's keep having these conversations. I'm so glad we're alive in this time and in this era, Patricia. I'm just so happy that I got to i got to witness a time in life where women could finally start to unionize. That's what I'm always going to advocate. We need to unionize as a sex.
00:57:24
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. And another thing that jumped out when you were reading the abstract is that they didn't experience any negative outcomes, right? Correct. If maybe the only thing that we can do without ah costing it without it costing us too much is to ignore the person, ostracize them, and make them feel like shit when we see them, that's at least something.
00:57:48
Speaker
I don't know. This is very troubling. It's very troubling. And I think it just goes to, you know, we we have been um underreacting, I would say. And I understand why. But I think you're right. Any and all ways of waging war against these injustices, ah we got to we got to exploit them to the nth degree.
00:58:08
Speaker
Yeah, you're very right. Because it goes under the radar, like for each woman that experienced this, she feels bad. She tries to get over it. Like, I don't know, after a few weeks and doing other things, distracting herself, distracting herself.
00:58:24
Speaker
And then that's it. um It's kind of like an untapped potential of like everybody that's been through this. yeahp But yeah, it's not that simple, hey? because And psychology knows. Psychology knows if you've been victimized once, you're more likely to be re-victimized.
00:58:43
Speaker
um And again, that's just because there are predators and they are looking for these indicators and these tells. And they know they know the reality probably far better than we even do, right? They're the ones talking amongst each other.
00:58:54
Speaker
on these discords and talking about how to drug and record and all this shit. So yeah, again, I'm just like, let's go for it. Ladies. Let's find all the ways we can Queens to bring down our wrath upon these, these absolute degenerate deviant individuals.
00:59:15
Speaker
It's time that they feel a a scintilla of what they visited upon us. Yeah. And with that, i think that's all I got to say for today. How are you feeling? Yeah, I'm a little upset, but that's not a bad thing.
00:59:28
Speaker
Thank you for listening in, Queens. We'll see you next time. And for all i love you folks out there listening, no means no. Fuck off and die mad. Thank you. That's right. France just had a new law that came in that says only yes means yes. And I think that's the new, that's going to be the new byword from FDS. Only yes means yes. The end. Enthusiastic consent. Absolutely. That's right.
00:59:51
Speaker
That's right. Go enjoy yourselves enthusiastically. And scrotes die mad. All right. Until next time. Take care.