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My Kink is Shaming
1.3k Plays7 days ago
In this episode, Patricia & Rose examine shame as a tool that shapes social norms and etiquette, and its usefulness in particular situations, often those involving men and male entitlement. Do we need to bring back shame as a social consequence? Is a Shame Renaissance on the horizon? Can or should FDS Queens embrace shame as a necessary behavioral corrective in dating and courtship?
Share your thoughts in the comments below!
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Transcript
Introduction and Theme: Is Shaming Men the Right Approach?
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome back to the Female Dating Strategy, the meanest female-only podcast on the internet, or it was last time we checked. I'm your host, Rose. And I'm Patricia. I'm not sure that we're the meanest anymore, but yeah, there are a lot of other mean ones out there right now. Yeah, i was thinking about it, like, are we still as unapologetic as the OGs? I don't know. But today we're going to be meaner than usual because we're going to talk about basically shaming men.
Incidents of Discomfort and Shaming Men: Personal Stories
00:00:29
Speaker
for the For the good that of society. Yeah, it's for the good of society. it's for the It's for the greater good. Okay. And it's also for our good. So shaming is a useful tool and we should use it to impose social norms. And this came about because last time... um Well, for those who haven't listened, I had like an unpleasant incident while taking a flight that the guy next to me did like a whole charade to look at my boob and made me uncomfortable in like all kinds of like micro ways. And then at the end, what I was sharing with Rose offline is that eventually, like when there was not a long time left for the flight and I was like really already...
00:01:14
Speaker
pissed off and everything that I told myself about, like, don't fall into his game. You're better than that. I did not feel better than that. And what did I do? I just looked at him.
00:01:25
Speaker
I looked at him for like a whole second and a half. And mind you, he's sitting right next to me. So it was like a very invasive look. He did not look at me. He was like pretending to read his book, but I definitely made him very uncomfortable.
00:01:39
Speaker
And as a retort, he let out of a very silent but deadly fart. push It smelled awful. i immediately got up and I told him, you, sir, have no class.
00:01:54
Speaker
And I basically didn't go back to my seat. Amazing. All caps clap right there. Like, and when told me this, I went off with joy. i like went off like a sparkling candle because one of my secret weapons in life that has really behooves me in many social situations is my subtle, but...
00:02:18
Speaker
us It's subtle, it's stealthy, but it's also deadly use of shame. I
The Role of Shaming in Society and Civility
00:02:25
Speaker
absolutely endorse and believe in the power, the redemptive power of shaming. In fact, I think a lot of what's going wrong with society right now is the utter shamelessness that's happened, especially with like the rise of social media. Oh, sure.
00:02:38
Speaker
wanting to be a reality star or a TikToker or an influencer. All of it is about this really sort of shameless behavior being rewarded. and it has led to the deterioration of civility. And I'm over it. Okay. Because I absolutely see it in populist so politics nowadays, like in many, many places. Yeah.
00:02:57
Speaker
100%. It's all there, right? like Like the orange man is the most shameless person ever, right? And everybody's taking their cues from him. But I don't know ah you know. I've talked about this before, Patricia, how I came from a very abusive household and that was not fun. At the same time, you do learn some important things, which was like the power of shaming is a very real power. And um I'm going to give you an example. I'm going to give you an example.
Confronting Inappropriate Behavior: Techniques and Personal Experiences
00:03:21
Speaker
How did you know? Yep. but So here's an example. When I was ah teaching in Chile, i was going out to all these different schools and countrysides and rural places. um And one time I got off the bus stop and there was this group of like younger teenage boys all hanging around the park on their bikes.
00:03:43
Speaker
and I saw this young man take the beverage he had and he just threw it on the ground. He just threw the can on the ground. And I looked and there was literally a garbage can like three feet away.
00:03:56
Speaker
and I went over to him and I said, young man, the garbage can is over there. And I pointed at it. can't believe you did that. That's right. I did. And I pointed to the garbage can and I stared at him in silent censure until he picked it up and threw it away properly.
00:04:11
Speaker
oh my God. Teacher vibes. I totally went into teacher mode. I really did. Because I mean, think about it. It wasn't even my first language. Like I was still mastering Spanish, but I was like, you know what? This cannot stand. Like I hate...
00:04:27
Speaker
litterers I absolutely hate people who litter. It just, it's like a number one pet peeve, especially when they're garbage cans, like provided for you. You know, here in Chicago, we basically have like no garbage cans anywhere. I get why people litter, you know, but like still most people are driving, keep it in your car until you have a trash can. It's fine. But in any any case, that's, that really triggered me. And I was like very calm. I was not yelling.
00:04:52
Speaker
I was not threatening in any way, but I was stone cold shaming him. And i remember like I had such heart palpitations and like an adrenaline rush afterwards because I mean, I kind of surprised even myself at that time, Patricia. I was a little younger. um But, you know, since that time, I've really embraced like if I'm on a plane, if I'm on a train, if I'm on a bus, here's another example. I was on a bus in Chicago on the South Side.
00:05:19
Speaker
which is which is historically impoverished black community. So I was one of the few white people on this bus. there was an ah He had to have been mentally disturbed. He was not in his right mind.
00:05:32
Speaker
We were just getting onto a highway. So it was gonna be a long ride. There was no like off ramp for about 15 minutes, 10 minutes. And this gentleman in the back of the bus started just harassing and yelling at these two. I could tell they were like young students from the local university.
00:05:48
Speaker
And he was just harassing them and giving them a hard time and like amping up his efforts when he saw that they were like
Moral Authority and Women Standing Up
00:05:55
Speaker
too scared to do anything. And I was sitting maybe a couple of seats in front of them.
00:06:00
Speaker
And so I went to the back and think about this. He was like leaning over their back seats, trying to get in their faces, trying to physically intimidate them. my God. It was really quite scary. And ah I said to him, sir, would you prefer seating in my seat up front since these individuals, since they're such a bother for you, I insist, please take my seat up front. He was like, no, ma'am. I was like, sir, I insist. It is time for you to move yourself up to the front where my seat was. Thank you. Thank you, sir.
00:06:32
Speaker
Thank you. And I just kept thanking him until he moved. Well, but that is that is way beyond just shaming. That's like really taking both of these stories that you told. That's like really taking a proactive stance in correcting wrongs around you. That's super brave, I think.
00:06:50
Speaker
Especially the second story. Well, thank you. I mean, honestly, again, i think this stems from having felt so wronged. i felt I felt the injustice so acutely as a child, but I was powerless in that household. And so when I got out into the grander world, I was like, I will never be silent again. I will never stand by silently and just let things happen. Not when I have a voice, right? That is super brave and super powerful.
00:07:16
Speaker
ah Thank you. I mean, I've talked to you before about how hard it was and how how hard I've worked to own my own voice and to speak up. And so I considered that was like part of my sort of social praxis. I was like, I want to be i want to be a contributing member of society. I want to be somebody who's like contributing to the betterment of the environment I'm in. And I don't just want to be you know a passive scared spectator like so many people are and I understand why it is very scary to do these things.
00:07:46
Speaker
It's not like I don't have... It's brave. i wanted to share something that happened yesterday, but like that was along the same vein. oh And i felt like it was very powerful. it's it's not It's not in the same region as what you just told.
00:08:02
Speaker
but basically It could be large to small. That's the thing. It doesn't have to be a huge thing. It could be the smallest thing. So please, yes, share. and It's not exactly confrontational, but basically like the person who's whatever, lifeguard or something at the pool ah yesterday, just like...
00:08:18
Speaker
When he was walking by, I felt naked. Like I checked if my bathing suit is still on. I didn't look at him, but I just felt like, yeah, I felt naked.
00:08:29
Speaker
And then the second
Historical and Modern Perspectives on Shaming
00:08:31
Speaker
time that happened, um I kind of like felt like something is happening because like I go to like the the part of the pool that's mostly occupied by old people. I should say it like that because I'm working on my rehabilitation. So like the two old ladies that were in my area of the pool, they were like, they kind of were looking at my, in my area too.
00:08:52
Speaker
Kind of like, I don't know. I felt like something is off. And then when he completed his round around the pool, just like whatever lifeguard or something, I just looked at him.
00:09:03
Speaker
I looked at him for a long time, like four or five seconds. That's a long time. and With a blank stare, no expression. But it was kind of like, first of all, to make him understand that I do understand that he exists.
00:09:18
Speaker
The fact that I'm not looking at him doesn't mean that I don't see that he exists. And second, to make him, to give him a slice of what it feels like to be looked at for a long time.
00:09:29
Speaker
And basically to say, like, I don't appreciate being stared at. Yeah. um You know, and I think that's like, it's very micro. yeah Like, because, you know, virtually I did nothing.
00:09:44
Speaker
I just looked at somebody. But like, we're very adept to notice how long people look at you, what they look at. And so if somebody stares at you for like a few full seconds.
00:09:55
Speaker
Yeah. That's pretty intense. It is. And I felt pretty powerful in that moment. I felt like that was a good way for me to take power, even though like I'm in a vulnerable position because like I'm naked in the pool. Basically, I'm in a bathing suit and he's fully clothed.
00:10:11
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, I think that's an amazing example, Patricia, i wrote because I think that's more manageable for more women, okay? I am bonkers. I fully accept that. Also, can I just say I'm man-sized. I'm very tall. I'm very large in that like I come from Midwestern German stock. we are like i only find I remember back before there were before there was public internet shopping, the only place I could go to that actually had boots and clothing in my size was the Netherlands, right?
00:10:42
Speaker
but I buy in the kids' store here. Like, I buy kids' shoes. You understand what I'm saying with that, Patricia, right? Like, clothing sizes are so tall. Yeah, they're so tall. They're just, they're taller, bigger people. So, honestly, I'm the size of, like, an average man in the U.S. If you look up those stats, that's those are my stats, essentially. So, I think also I kind of have this, like,
00:11:04
Speaker
sense of equality among men that a lot of women don't because they're so much smaller often, you know, like all my besties are the most petite women ever. And I'm just so protective of them. um they They are so cute, but yeah, but i've I think I've used like my powers for good because again, it's like,
00:11:22
Speaker
when I'm out in public, if I see something that's going sideways, so just to finish up the story I was telling you about the bus, you know, everybody on the bus tries to just avoid looking and he's not bothering them. So they don't want to bother, be bothered. But when I went and helped these kids out afterwards,
Trusting Personal Morals in a Changing Society
00:11:37
Speaker
And they turned around, they like, thank you so much. We didn't know what to do. Like, we just moved here. i i did I didn't know. And I was like, ah I understand. I've been there. And, you know, when when we can help one another out, we got to help one another out. Don't worry about it. And then I got a tap from behind me.
00:11:53
Speaker
Right? I got a tap from behind me and I turned around. This woman was like, i'm I just moved here from Italy. I'm a graduate student. Is this normal? Like, do I have to...
00:12:06
Speaker
I was like, yes, you should be prepared for anything on the Chicago. That is funny. We casual friends, casual acquaintances, you know, over the... She was not prepared. She was not. She's like, what is happening? i have She's like, in Italy, this would never happen. And I was like, yeah, I i know wouldn't, but... Is she from the north or the south?
00:12:28
Speaker
I'm just kidding. She was from the south. She was from the south. um But she was just like, so take it. She's like, I just wasn't prepared for this level public, you know, public menace. And I'm like, yeah, this is, it's, it's not unusual. It doesn't happen all the time, but it can happen and it will.
00:12:46
Speaker
um and You know, but like, again, i have been, when I lived in South America, I was robbed 13 times. I was robbed at gunpoint.
00:12:58
Speaker
Shit. There were knives at other times. Once I was attacked with a belt, like I had so many. Oh my God. Yeah, yeah. I had some really serious incidents to happen. And...
00:13:10
Speaker
Um, it's not that I don't get scared. Like, please understand and believe, trust and believe that like my heart rate, like it's, my heart is racing. I break out into like a cold adrenaline sweat. My hands are shaking. Sometimes even my voice shakes because I'm so distressed, but yeah.
00:13:27
Speaker
Again, like I refuse to be silenced when there is an injustice, when you are doing a wrong, like I'm going to call you out on it. And i have to, you know, what really bothered me about the most recent rise of like the Karen myth, the myth of the Karen, like...
00:13:42
Speaker
Okay, that's just somebody being racist usually, okay? But I notice how it's only applied to the women because again, anytime we dare to speak up, we're nags, we're hysterical, we're overreacting, we're too sensitive. I mean, we hear everything, but oftentimes if you're in a troubled situation, who's who do you turn to for help? Often it's going to be a woman who comes to your help.
00:14:04
Speaker
who comes to your age. Yeah, that true. That is true. um I would like to make like a differentiation between behaviors that are overt and covert. Oh, yes. but and hey We were also talking about it last time. i don't remember if it was online or offline, but like a lot of the times Men know exactly what they're doing and they know what the actual rules are.
00:14:29
Speaker
and so they're being sly. They're acting under the threshold of whatever legality or rules. Patricia, we call that plausible deniability. Yeah, basically, they're only they're okay with making you uncomfortable.
00:14:47
Speaker
yeah Because they kind of know that they're you're not going to do anything about it or what are you going to do about it because they're not breaking any rules. Like for instance, the guy the pool that was like checking me out intensely. I don't know if that's against their rules, but it's definitely against like, you know, society
Impact of Culture on Morality and Community Traditions
00:15:04
Speaker
noise or how he should act.
00:15:06
Speaker
And I think in these cases, because it's maybe you can put it under like microaggressions or micro whatever. yeah I think in these cases, it's interesting to think about things that you can do that are quite small, but still impactful. And one thing like that that I learned after I discovered FDS is walking away.
00:15:28
Speaker
That's like a really, really powerful move because, of course, uh the thing that men value most is our presence just our presence is so valuable so if somebody like i had this happen shortly after i discovered fds like somebody that i worked with we had like an i don't know holiday get together whatever and he said like a sexist joke and I just walked away.
00:15:53
Speaker
Like, you know, we were standing like three, four people. He said this so thing. We were having some kind of like delicacy and he said like, yeah, I tried all of them. You know, I sampled them like like chicks, like girls.
00:16:05
Speaker
And I just turned around, walked away. That is so impactful. Just walking away is really, really impactful. You don't even have to make a face or anything. They get the message.
00:16:17
Speaker
They're like, oh, this is lame. She's not entertained. She finds this disgusting. And next time, if I want to keep her around, I shouldn't act like that. And everybody around it also saw that you just left.
00:16:30
Speaker
So that's also a funnel shaming, I would say. That's fantastic. I love that. So, and again, so the overt versus covert. Men know the societal rules. They know staring is rude. Like all of that, they know it. I hate when we're like, they maybe they don't know any better. They fucking know, but they really don't.
00:16:47
Speaker
Yes, they thrive on being able to do whatever and get just skate by under the, you know, the plausible deniability. And this makes me think about how sometimes just as simple as things, one is walking away 100%. If you have a hard time speaking up and you just can't even imagine saying anything, work on just simply absenting yourself.
00:17:09
Speaker
from a situation. So powerful. It is so powerful. It so powerful. When I learned that I can do that if I'm talking to somebody and they even annoy me.
00:17:19
Speaker
And I'm not friends with this person. I'm just at a party. I can yeah get my sweet ass up and walk away to a different place where that annoying person does not exist. That's all. You
Media Influence on Relationships and Morality
00:17:32
Speaker
you don't owe that person anything.
00:17:35
Speaker
It's so fun. you Exactly. And it's liberating. And the more you start to do things like that, I think the more you start to believe in your power to actually affect situations that where where you should feel empowered to object to behavior, to poor behavior. So another thing you can practice is um literally saying things like,
00:18:01
Speaker
you should be ashamed of yourself, okay? Just practice. You should be ashamed. of Or and here's another one, shame on you. Wow.
00:18:11
Speaker
When you say this to people, and I That's a lot. Like I'm a pretty brave and outspoken person, but I cannot see myself, not at the moment. It's hard for me to see myself saying something like that.
00:18:23
Speaker
Here's another example. you give me an example? oh yeah, you still have no class. You still class, okay? Yeah. That's a fantastic one, Patricia, because that maybe feels a little um milder, but maybe it feels more manageable for you to say to somebody. right Yeah, because class is something like, I feel like I'm always trying to be a classy person, even if like, I think there's something like spiritual about it, like being, i don't know, class also has to do with like being reserved or being like ah regulated in a way. And yeah, I think that that's a claim that I can make to tell somebody that he doesn't have class.
00:19:01
Speaker
um Exactly. Here's another one. But it is a moral, it
Public Figures and Missed Opportunities for Shaming
00:19:05
Speaker
is a moral judgment. It is a moral judgment and we should be unafraid to make moral judgments. I would argue that we need a lot more moral judgment. Give me more. Being inactive and imposed. Here's another one.
00:19:15
Speaker
For shame. For shame. Simply just for shame. Or even shorter, shame. What a shame. All of this. I'm telling you, if you use these, and I don't pull these out of nowhere. It's not like I'm just like wandering around handing these out. Okay.
00:19:33
Speaker
like These are like, these are like, what is it when you're playing in in football and you like pull out a ah card? What is it? Yellow card, orange card. Foul on the play. Like
Encouragement for Women to Speak Up
00:19:45
Speaker
I'm only pulling these out when there's an egregious foul. Can you me an example when you told somebody shame on you?
00:19:51
Speaker
um Let's see here. Yes, actually I can. So ah the last place that I rented from, thank God, i I know I'm an owner, which is amazing. But the last place I rented was a very, very low income.
00:20:04
Speaker
place. And the lady who was the caretaker, um you know, I'm still good friends with her. i still see her at least every month. um But she's getting really old and she's very disabled and she's very impoverished. And so things are harder and harder for her. And this lady, this other lady moved in a few years ago and has slowly like created her own little gang, like her own little clique. And And she is so rude to to that caretaker lady. And so when I was moving out, she came up to me and she was like, oh, I see you're leaving, blah, blah, blah, blah. blah What's your little friend, Ms. So-and-so gonna do? Because the whole building knew that I was friends with the caretaker.
00:20:46
Speaker
And I said to her, you know what? Shame on you. Shame on you for your shameful treatment of her. She is a lovely lady. She's done nothing wrong to you. You should be ashamed of yourself. Yeah. When I tell you the look on her face, like, it's actually really funny when you do say this to people because you can tell they've never heard it in their lives. They are so taken aback. They are so flummoxed. Like...
00:21:09
Speaker
It's like people go speechless and then you kind of see a bit of shame creep into their countenance because they know they've been acting shamefully. They know it, but they were relying on nobody ever calling them to accounts.
00:21:20
Speaker
And so i have really got deep about that because basically when you allow yourself to say that you're acting out of conviction that you know right from wrong, because yeah basically like sometimes like I can speak for myself. I know what's right and wrong for me. I know my morality. And I also believe that for every person, his sense of right and wrong is beyond philosophizing. It's something that you feel in your heart and you know what's right and what's wrong.
00:21:49
Speaker
But I don't find that
Conclusion: Personal Reflection and Call to Action
00:21:52
Speaker
I have the authority to make that claim for somebody else. But at the same time, why not? Like if I know in my heart that something is wrong, who says that I cannot say it out loud?
00:22:03
Speaker
That's very powerful. Yes. I think that's the thing is I think women feel disempowered. I feel like we think we're not the authorities. And if you think about how many mediocre men have declared themselves authorities for how many millennia, like I want you to start understanding that who more than you should be the authority?
00:22:24
Speaker
Why are you ceding authorship of public morality and public good? who Who does more to uphold the public good than women? We're courteous. We greet each other. We hold doors open for each other. If somebody has a crying toddler who's thrown their toy on the ground and the mom's arms are full trying to juggle this tantruming toddler, we're the first ones to pick up the toy and hand it back. Are we not? true yeah we We are the ones upholding this social contract right now. um And in fact, I would argue governments are relying on that, but that's a whole other conversation. The point is, we know, right? We know that we are the ones who tend to care the most about our fellow humans, our fellow mankind and womankind. And so...
00:23:07
Speaker
You know, do I like being the authority? No. I believe I have the right and that I am right. I wouldn't act this way if I was like, maybe I don't know, maybe. And oftentimes if I'm like ready to go off, which is very rare, but before I let myself say anything, I'm like, well, am I just in a bad mood? Am I hangry? Like, is something bothering me from earlier this week that this is, I'm just like projecting and redirecting my energy in a in a unnecessary fashion you know I do check myself you're not throwing you should be ashamed of yourselves around easily heavy heavy weapon it's a very heavy weapon but I think it's really one that we need to start issuing once again like damn you know what this is so this is like actually a lot more thought invoking than I thought because it makes me think about like moments where actually that's what I should have
00:23:58
Speaker
said, like in situations where I know, i know that what the person did is wrong or or what the person is doing is wrong, but it's not against the law.
00:24:12
Speaker
You know what I mean? do know. To make this moral claim, that is so powerful. ah hair but killing hair Actually, like one of the people that I had a really, really bad experience with, it was a pretty bad time in my life when I moved here. I had a lot of stress because the landlord that I had was a real piece of work. I don't throw this word out easily, but he is a misogynist.
00:24:36
Speaker
he or he like He essentially hates women. There's something about women that he does not see as full humans. He can either sexualize or vilify women. I really, really know that.
00:24:50
Speaker
And he decided quite early that he doesn't want me to live in the building. And the fact that we live in a fucking European country where there are laws that protect me as Senate did not interest him.
00:25:03
Speaker
He just made sure to make my life insufferable. He put a camera Right next to my house, right next to my apartment with a really bright light, like a UFO light that shines every time I come back home.
00:25:17
Speaker
And then like I leave the house, I look up and I see him looking down. Like he knows that I'm coming down the stairs. And at this particular day like that that happened, I looked up at him and I told him like, is it interesting for you to watch me?
00:25:34
Speaker
And you know what he told me? ah have no idea what you're talking about. Are you crazy? and and And this really made me think about um another really, really impactful FDS episode where I can't remember the speaker name. I'll try to include it in the show notes. But basically, she was saying how specifically she had experience in the court systems and she was sharing how she saw in many, many cases how when women have mental health issues, it is put against them.
00:26:05
Speaker
whether ah Whereas where men have mental health issues, it is put in favor for them. Like, oh, he suffered a very abusive childhood, so he was traumatized, so this is why he's violent.
00:26:18
Speaker
Versus, oh she suffered an abusive childhood, so she's off the handle and she cannot be trusted or something like that. yeah And I was just like, oh my God, this is textbook. Like, he's trying to drive me crazy.
00:26:32
Speaker
and And literally gaslighting me. Like, this is also a word that I don't use lightly. And in that moment, now that you're saying all of this, I'm thinking like in that moment, like I just i just walked away, right?
00:26:46
Speaker
But if I would have told him, you should be ashamed of yourself. It wouldn't change anything. But basically what I'm like, the the penny that drops for me now is that like basically that is the thing. Like I have a moral judgment and yeah we don't really say that.
00:27:02
Speaker
We don't really make moral judgments in our society today. i'm not sure why. I think we should interrogate why, because that used to be how we kept, that used to be how we kept people in check, okay? Men in particular. That is how we used to keep men in check. It's a soft power, but it is powerful.
00:27:23
Speaker
yeah And I think it's very interesting that one of the few tools that women had at their disposal to have any kind of power in society has somehow magically evaporated.
00:27:34
Speaker
Don't you find that real curious? First give me like illustrate how that used to be used as a power. So it used used as a power, for example, with gossip.
00:27:45
Speaker
When you had a man in your local community who was ah drunk or a wife beater or a molester, women would stop greeting him in public.
00:28:01
Speaker
Women would give him the cut direct. Women would give him the cold shoulder. All of these small but powerful actions made it clear to him that he was persona non grata amongst civilized company.
00:28:20
Speaker
He had repercussions. He got repercussions for his actions. He had consequences. Consequences, yes. Thank you. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Repercussions is a great word too. But these were these were silent weapons that women yielded for a very long time back when we had no power, at least none in the public sphere, right? But that was exercised judiciously when a man was acting beyond the pale, right?
00:28:44
Speaker
And now that we have our own bank accounts and can buy our own homes and, you know, work in the public sector, I find it really curious how shaming has like magically disappeared. I just can't help but think that there's something related there. Maybe I need a sociologist who's listening who who has explored shaming to to chime in here, please. I would love to hear what you've got to say. But this is something I've been looking for.
00:29:08
Speaker
A couple decades to be, it's a personal, it's a personal topic that I'm sort of obsessed with, to be honest, because. That's super interesting. I never thought of it. Like what comes to mind and maybe you can, ah we can, maybe we can have a friendly argument, but like. Yeah.
00:29:21
Speaker
What comes to mind is maybe how we used to have at least presumably a very, kind of like monolithic structure of society. And then if you fall out, like there's more clear rules and if you fall out, you get the repercussions, consequences. Whereas today there's like a, well, not today, but like, don't know.
00:29:42
Speaker
last 50 years, there's a pro proliferation of lifestyles, choices, and then it's kind of like, like I live in Amsterdam, right? Like, who am I to judge what somebody else is doing?
00:29:53
Speaker
Right? And this stems to that like, it comes back to the same thing that basically, I can tell to myself, this is wrong, but who am i to say publicly, so to speak, to the world, this is wrong?
00:30:08
Speaker
Who am I to say if something is wrong or right, you know? Yeah, that's that's absolutely what most people think and I understand it, but I always like to flip that question on its head. Who are you not to
00:30:21
Speaker
Why can it not, of all the people in the world, why can it not be you? Who else can you speak for if not for yourself? Yeah. But again, these are really radical thoughts. These are like, these are questions and and interrogations that we're not having in this day and age. So I'm really happy. When you told me we could talk about this today, I was like, oh yes, please. Oh my God, it's one of my hobbies. Because, you know, and another thing I think about is like, back when women were in the were're only in the private sphere, at at least in the Western world, um speaking from like that Western perspective of women as property, women as, you know,
00:30:55
Speaker
women as chattel. um You know, one of the things that men used to do was they would sort of placate us with telling us, but we're the moral authority. And like without women's civilizing influence, you know, men would descend into barbarism. And so they gave us this sort of false sense of entitlement and I think elevated moral superiority that was a lie because they were going around raping and stealing and killing and, you know, doing whatever they wanted. But like they kept us placated with this like But you're the moral authority. This is where you this is where you're the true authority. How is that placating? That sounds like something that's like, if I put myself in that woman's position, that sounds like something that limits my freedom.
00:31:34
Speaker
Like I'm not a full individual that also has unhealthy urges that I'm working to rein in. It's not like I'm naturally more moral. No, I agree with you. But I mean, this is part of the sort of weird, twisted psychology of Western civilization. You know, there's some things where you like, what the hell were they thinking? I don't know. But I think this was a real thing that was ongoing. And once we were removed, once we demanded our rightful place in the public sector,
00:32:01
Speaker
you know, maybe this was one of the, um maybe this was one of the concessions that men were no longer willing to grant us. And maybe that's now why women find themselves asking like, well, who am I to judge? And what, you know, ah what kind of, what kind of moral authority do I have? And I understand that, but I think because we have seeded are or our position as moral arbiters, we're really seeing results in the political sphere and in our societal sphere. I don't think any of us can argue that we haven't seen a total deterioration of like the social contract over the last 20, 30, 40 years. Would you agree? That is super interesting.
00:32:38
Speaker
And ah like all the negative points that I'm bringing up is just because that's what my brain is bringing up. But actually what you're saying is... really making me think about that's the nicest compliment you know something seriously it's like you could not be praising me more highly right now one something that somebody said to me the other week at work because they were like you were right and I was like oh my three favorite words like some people are always like I love you the in Three words. I'm like, no, mine are like, you are right. You were right. Like, oh, it's orgasmic. It's like, oh my God, thank you. at last, because here I am just like going about minding my business, trying to live, you know, a morally correct life. I'm not a prude. I'm not a Puritan by any means. I mean, I'm, Puritans are like,
00:33:27
Speaker
half of the reason why this country is ah locked in religious extremism and in this like death cult right now. So I'm certainly not coming at it from that perspective. If anything, being brought up very Catholic, um my mom brought me up in this sort of liberation theology strain of Catholicism, which was like, we're here on this earth to do good works, to be good stewards of the earth and to be, you know, true and loving to our fellow man. Like, I think that's as simple as it gets. I cannot agree more. Like that is how I live my life. And it's how I go to bed at night with like a clear conscience, you know?
00:34:04
Speaker
That's beautiful. Yeah, I'm also super secular. My my morality comes from having a clean conscience. And like I said, like sometimes people try to, it doesn't happen often, but sometimes people try to have like moral arguments, philosophical arguments, and i really think that that's...
00:34:21
Speaker
Like once you get cerebral about it, you lose the point because it's something that you feel. You really, you you know it. It's like a first mind kind of thing. And the thought invoking thing that you're suggesting here is that this is also a facet that I can empower myself in.
00:34:41
Speaker
Because i'm I'm a pretty outspoken person, like I speak my mind, I don't have troubles like expressing myself. And also to myself, sometimes if somebody did me wrong, I think it's important.
00:34:53
Speaker
For me, I feel that it's important to tell to myself, yes, that was wrong. What they did was wrong. I think that's important, you know, to not try to wash it away for yourself, at least.
00:35:06
Speaker
and But like what you're suggesting is really taking it a step forward, like to tell somebody that they should be ashamed or to make a moral judgment about somebody. And I kind of feel like maybe what you're illustrating about losing that It kind of reminds me of um kind of like liberal libfem discourse, liberal feminism discourse.
00:35:27
Speaker
And what we so I mean, I don't see it. I mostly heard about it in like OG FDS bonus content where they're like, oh, let's dissect this glamour magazine that I don't know, says that I don't even want to say, but like pretty disgusting things that are obviously are not empowering.
00:35:49
Speaker
Like Let's bring a current example, like that porn is fine. Porn is not fine. Nope. It is not fine. And then like, yeah, making that moral judgment is like a bit, it's a bit sticky, I would say.
00:36:04
Speaker
No pun intended. Women are really, that's a great pun, even if it was unintended. I think, ask yourself as a woman, why am I so reticent? Why do I feel like I should not? So what? Reticent. Why am I so unwilling to stake a claim, to have an opinion? Because then you have to stand behind Oh shit, is that right? You know what stuck out for me in that story that you said about Chile?
00:36:39
Speaker
What's that? whatsapp It's not that you only told the person to to put his can in the in the trash. You also stood there. not move it until he did.
00:36:52
Speaker
And that's the thing. You make the claim and then you stand behind it like a fucking mountain. Pardon my French. That's the impactful part because that's where your conviction comes through.
00:37:04
Speaker
It's like with my little incident yesterday, it's that when I looked at him, I didn't look at him for a second. I looked at him for like full, I don't know, five, six seconds. That's like an eternity with somebody that you don't know.
00:37:19
Speaker
Yeah. Because you're saying something with that gaze, weren't you? And that's where, you know, you know that that's where his mind starts racing. And that's where you, that's that's the thing. The thing is that if you make such a strong claim or you take a strong action, you need to stand behind it. And that's a bit scary.
00:37:40
Speaker
It is scary. It is. It absolutely is. And that's why I'm not, and that's why I'm not shaming women who feel that... who feel that they can't shame others. I understand why. and if ever you're in a situation where you wish you could, but you just feel like you can't honor that. That's your body's, um that's your survival instinct. And I'm always gonna embrace you your your ability to survive. Okay, that's more important than anything. If you are, however, it's like, I love that you were like, I went by the two old women in the pool, because that was also a level of solidarity right there. even if they weren't looking out for you, you knew they would say something or do something case something went down. i think It was more like a micro, you know, ah you gather information about what's happening. There was also like the lifeguard on the other side of the pool, ah like on the other, in the other pool, there's like a glass wall between us, but it was also looking like there was something happened there. You know, it was a moment.
00:38:36
Speaker
It was, a yeah it affected the the energy in the space. So i was like, okay, something is happening. It's not, I'm not imagining it. No, you should be proud of yourself for actually listening to your to your wisdom and the knowledge that you knew. that so many men rely on us doubting and undercutting ourselves and like second guessing. And they know women do that. Men don't do that most of the time. That's exactly, exactly. I think the most important point that this like transition between us feeling something and acting on it, and that action can be a very um very small, even almost invisible.
00:39:19
Speaker
But that is the connection that I wish would be more immediate immediate for a lot of women. Like if something wrong happens, a lot of the time it's exactly like you said, we start um basically gaslighting ourselves out of our self-reservation instincts and like minimizing it and saying like, oh, but what can I do? And oh, he didn't actually break any rules. And oh, maybe he didn't notice. But the thing is, the thing that is very important and also goes back to the format result and basically what all this podcast is about is honoring your instincts and letting them move you into action.
00:39:58
Speaker
And that action can be walking away. That action can be not greeting somebody. That action can be avoiding somebody's look or staring at them for one second too long. The action doesn't have to be a lot. You don't have to be like crows.
00:40:15
Speaker
and you don't stand up and insist for a drunk man to move out of his seat. Like, that's a lot. Not all of us can be that brave, but you can do... Even something small is impactful because really men who act like that, they rely on us freezing and doing nothing. Like i when I was younger, i took like a service cab. It's kind of like a bigger taxi. And there was a person next to me, like, like a construction worker. But he was like, every time the car was jumping,
00:40:48
Speaker
he quote-unquote accidentally touch my side boob with this elbow it sounds like my boobs are something guys I'm they look a b-cap at my boobs are perfect but men they are fucking devious like I don't and there' there's they're just i believe they just have no impulse control it's not that I have big boobs or something But basically every time the car jumped, he was accidentally touching my side but with his elbow.
00:41:17
Speaker
And like I said, in most instances, I always stand up for myself. And I don't remember if I even told him something or if I stared at him, but I made it clear with my body language that I understand what he's doing. yeah I do not think that it's accidental. And that was enough for him to be completely ashamed of himself.
00:41:35
Speaker
You don't have to tell him fully, you should be ashamed of yourself. But you should absolutely say yourself, I'm uncomfortable right now and it is my prerogative to defend myself. Even if it's with something as minute as getting up or shifting or scratching your elbow or like stretching a bit too big. You know, it doesn't have to be something big.
00:42:00
Speaker
The most important thing is that you can do something and you are, you have the power, you have the permission. It's an exercise. Okay. You have to exercise that muscle because it's going to feel very, it's atrophied. Okay. they They've ensured that we have let it atrophy because they've shamed us for shaming them.
00:42:20
Speaker
That's really what's happened, Patricia, is they shamed us so much for us shaming them rightfully so that we learned to keep quiet about it. But we do have these small weapons, whether it's just a pointed glare or a stare that goes too long or a resting bitch face that doesn't change when somebody tells you to smile. Like there are so many ways you can resist and get across your point without having to say anything. I always like...
00:42:47
Speaker
practicing saying things. Well, my therapist really trained me on like how to, how to go through scenarios and practice acting. We call it play acting. You scene act, right? She'd be like, okay, I'm going to be you and you be your sister go. And then we would have like the whole, would go through the whole kit and caboodle. Right. Because it helped me think about how I could respond in the moment ahead of time. So things like, you know, sometimes even just saying, excuse me,
00:43:12
Speaker
Yeah, that's a big one. a lot of women can use that or yeah pardon me. or you can say, excuse you. Like if somebody steps on your toes and doesn't apologize on the bus, like I really and firmly believe in learning how to say these things because it's self-advocacy ultimately.
00:43:32
Speaker
It's advocating for yourself first and foremost. And then secondly, it is contributing to the greater good. The world needs people to be acting right and to be acting better. Okay. Because it's just consequences. That's exactly it.
00:43:47
Speaker
And I can show you for sure that guy at the pool yesterday, he's going to think again before he's like x-rays another woman there, you know? Okay. Because he has this bitter taste in his mouth. And that's basically also like another thing that this does. It it is important to to apply consequences. Like we if we all walk around and say like, oh, i'm too I'm too shy or like I'm too embarrassed or like a guy hits on you in a way that is like really inappropriate, instead of ignoring and being embarrassed, tell him off.
00:44:21
Speaker
Yes. Give him the dirtiest glare you can give him. If you're somebody who who struggles with words, practice your body language, okay? Because they know what it means. They know. And this is something that, you know how one of the things that OG FDS would often push back on with the lip fems was how lip fems were like, you can't kink shame.
00:44:44
Speaker
don't yeah she I was like, what if my kink is shaming? Yeah, I remember that. How about that logic? But, you know, it was like, you know, it's not a kink for me. It's not like I'm getting driving sexual gratification from it. course but But, you know, I think that's like where another that's another part of looking at things like why should we when things are shameful? Why shouldn't we shame them I don't understand why we wouldn't.
00:45:11
Speaker
But again, this is a conversation that has, it this is like a very non-modern conversation. This is a modern conversation that you'll never hear discussed amongst your peers. It's just, it's like shame has entirely disappeared from our vocabulary, which I find, again, very unsettling, very suspicious. I can't put my finger on it, but I can't help but feel like there's it's just It's so weird to me because shame has always been, shame, fear, and guilt have always been how we have sort of corralled the worst of our human impulses. They're useful for a reason and yet somehow we're no longer using them whatsoever. Very odd. um Which is again- It's so very interesting to think about. I'm so glad we're having this conversation. I like what i didn't i never see this anywhere.
00:45:56
Speaker
Because again, it's it's it indeed goes against this modern perception. i guess like in this it like the most holy thing in our society, and I think it has to do with consumerism, is to feel good.
00:46:09
Speaker
Shame doesn't make you feel good. So shame doesn't have a a place in the discourse because now it's all about feeling good and doing what you want. and Whatever you want, you can do it. Right? Yeah, 100%. Mm-hmm.
00:46:23
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's such that's a good tie-in, Patricia. That's a very, very clever and insightful tie-in. Yeah, consumerism is all about hedonism, unchecked.
00:46:35
Speaker
Anything that would check hedonism is anti-consumerism, and we know capitalists can't have that. So... And also I think with the decline in religion and sort of the um the rise of modern psychology, i would argue that's also a part of like why this has disappeared from public discourse and public um powers of public powers of judgment. But you know... Yeah, I mean, I think that religion is kind of like a fake constructed morality that is used to control people. I'm sorry to whoever's listening that is religious. I apologize. Absolutely correct.
00:47:14
Speaker
That's just my opinion. oh i accepted some people. i met people that have, that are religious and have a developed sense of spirituality and morality and they have, and they're intelligent and they're wise and they have their own thing going on. i accept that.
00:47:28
Speaker
But generally I think that it's kind of like a um structure through which I, like I am the religion. I tell you what is right and wrong and you can absolve yourself through me. Right? Like I gave you structure for your life.
00:47:43
Speaker
but then you don't have agency. You lose that sense of knowing in your heart what is right and what is wrong because you just do what the priest told you or what the rabbi told you.
00:47:54
Speaker
So it's, yeah, it's kind of stealing the the authenticity of knowing what's right and what's wrong. And I think it's super interesting how this concept is indeed an anti-modern um concept but we we do not have a problem with that like we in FDS we do believe in some things that are considered like part of our philosophy is considered anti-modern because we say hey you know what men and women are not the same what so yeah it feels very old it's it's very old fashioned people often say we're aggressive like asking men or believing that men should pay for dates like 100% but you know just as a quick aside
00:48:38
Speaker
um The other week I had my piano recital and it was all the students played and all their parents came and I encouraged them to invite their families and friends. And so some of their little buddies came out for the weekend and their parent had to bring them. It was the most darling event ever. And afterwards, we had a little reception with cookies and lemonade. And all the kids were thanking me. They were like, these cookies are so delicious because I had baked them myself. oh And my friend was like, Rose, you're just so old fashioned. And I mean that in a good way. And I was like, yeah, I am. There are some things that we have lost that we should never have let go.
00:49:15
Speaker
This was a social, commute it was a communal event. It was one where we were all there to uplift and to encourage the younger generation of society. It was one we were all happy to see and hear the progress of a youngster and see the work that they had put in and the accomplishments that they had to show off. It was like, it was so wholesome, Patricia.
00:49:37
Speaker
And everybody felt that. I got so many thank yous and compliments from the parents afterward. Thank Even the kids were like, that was so fun. I'm so glad we did that, you know? And they all had to dress up and they all had to wear nice shoes and none of them could wear, you know, jeans and they all had to bow. And it was just like, we need this. We need more of these sorts of things in our lives. And I don't think we necessarily, we don't know how much we miss it because it's just quietly disappeared from our lives. Right.
00:50:04
Speaker
But when you do have it, you're like, oh yeah, I, this is, I need this. I was like, you know what? We're back to two recitals a year. We're going to do spring recital and fall recital. Like this is happening. And everybody's like, yay. And I was just so overjoyed because, you know, something that I believe in strongly, so strongly that I'm the one renting out the space and staying up late baking cookies and schlepping everything over to the event.
00:50:28
Speaker
venue um It's worth it. It's absolutely worth it. And so I think to tie this in, it's absolutely worth it to hold on to a sense of personal values and belief that yes, you can and must be a moral arbiter.
00:50:44
Speaker
in your day to day because if not you then who? That is very wise and really beautiful and goes back again to like in a way traditional I don't know have if to call it traditional law I didn't grow up with it but I can think of a time where it was a known fact in society that men do not have good impulse control and that men should not be trusted off the get-go as much as women are.
00:51:12
Speaker
And that is a reality. And to pretend otherwise is ah not wise, unwise. Yes, thank you. all that's such a good point.
00:51:26
Speaker
Yeah, okay, this is why Patricia, and this is why I like our conversations. you know Ultimately, All of this, all of this comes back around to the fact that like, we have to learn how to trust and believe in ourselves. And I think that's why the dating world is topsy-turvy right now is because we've listened to so many other authorities and influences that were just flat out fucking wrong.
00:51:48
Speaker
Just a hundred percent wrong. Don't kink chase. I blame Disney and Hollywood. from my wrong perception and a lot of love songs. I now listen to love songs in such a different way.
00:52:01
Speaker
i used to listen to love songs and say like, oh my God, this is so beautiful. This is the kind of love that I want to have. And now I listen to love songs where like the man is like, so I was listening, I'll just give a common example because this is probably a song that everybody knows. I was listening to Mirrors, Justin Turbolike. I was just working in the lab and listening to fun music.
00:52:21
Speaker
And listening to the song, what went from my mind is like, he wrote her a love song probably after he took her for granted. And now he feels a lot of things, but it sounds like before that he was taking her for granted and just assuming that she's always going to be there.
00:52:35
Speaker
And like, how bad did he hurt her that now he's writing her a love song? And this is what I think for every love song that I hear now. I'm like, oh, he cheated on her. Now he wants her back.
00:52:50
Speaker
That's all I hear. Oh my gosh. That is such a good point, Patricia. Did you hear about during the Olympics? I want to say it was, was it a a Danish or a Belgium like skier, a downhill skier who just won gold? And like in his after ski interview, he's like, I had cheated on my girlfriend and I just feel so bad about it. And I wish she would take me back and la la la. And it was like,
00:53:15
Speaker
What the hell is going on? Why are you talking about this? You just want go. Is that not while was ah receiving the Olympic medal? Not while he was receiving the Olympic medal. He had just won his race. He had just won first place. And of course, the first place winner has, you know, the media outlets coming tough to interview him. And that was the first thing he brought up in his interview was how he was so sad that he's his girlfriend that he cheated on wasn't there to be with him.
00:53:42
Speaker
And I was just like, this is so, all my God, like this man should have been shamed right then and there. Like shame on you. Yes, he should be ashamed of himself. Yes, yes. He literally shamed his country. He was there to represent his country. He won world for his country. And then he was a total fuck boy in the interview right after. and it was just like...
00:54:03
Speaker
That's so hilarious. And actually one of the news, they tracked her down and she remained anonymous. She was like, i do not appreciate being a part of his narrative. And it was like, oh, see, she was shaming him in her response.
00:54:15
Speaker
queen but
00:54:20
Speaker
That is quite bad. I gotta say that is quite bad. And we're, we're dealing with that every day, all day long. And I think that's another reason why women are so tired is because they're tired of holding their tongues. They're biting their tongues all the time. Oh, who am I?
00:54:34
Speaker
If not you, then who, if there's anything that you take away from today's discussion, I want you to start asking yourself, if not you, then who? I mean, i would say that's beautiful, but for me that feels a little advanced.
00:54:48
Speaker
Okay. Fair. Not but. And for me, it feels a little advanced. And i I would like to say that the least that you can do, like you have to stand up for yourself. To our listeners, I would say, if something wrong is done to you, i think you have to stand up.
00:55:06
Speaker
If you are able to also stand up for others, I think that's like amazing and really impactful. And I will try to think of instances where I don't take, don't give myself the permission to be convicted in my moral judgment.
00:55:23
Speaker
yay I will fear upon it. But i I would like to invite everybody to, anybody and everybody who's listening to stand up for yourself. That's for sure. yeah And think about the advanced stuff too.
00:55:37
Speaker
I don't know, maybe you also are like um a brave warrior like Crows. Tell us in the Spotify comments. Yeah. Yes, please. I would love to hear your comments to this conversation because a lot of my friends are always like, Rose, I can't believe you did that. I can't believe you said that. And I'm like, in the moment, I kind of go into a fugue state and it's all I can do. I couldn't stop myself if I tried, you know, but again, this is, we're talking decades of me being,
00:56:04
Speaker
building up this muscle and really learning how to embrace fearlessness, you know, and I just don't know any other way to live at this point. But again, we all have our own journeys. We all have our own challenges. If anything, yes, learning how to stick up for yourself is a great starting point. And it's one that we should all encourage ourselves to to start practicing in our day-to-day. think we've covered everything we should for today. What do you say, Patricia? Patricia?
00:56:32
Speaker
Yeah, I was on a really positive vibe. And then I remembered that I did freeze. There was a moment in my adult life where I did freeze. I was in a, like kind of a convention for like, and I was looking for a job and I met somebody that I knew. It was like older, like a lot older and connected.
00:56:48
Speaker
and then he introduced me to some people and he put his hand on the small of my back. Like it was not a professional placement for his hand. And he just left his hand there while he was introducing me.
00:57:01
Speaker
So it was very clear what he was doing. And i actually did not say anything. I did walk away, but I should have told him something. i was i I couldn't enjoy any of the event after that.
00:57:15
Speaker
That was all I was left with. The power imbalance is is is so much in that situation. And you know what, Patricia, maybe this is something that I should add as a caveat. If this is the first time you're really starting to think about these conversations and these kinds of questions, you might flash back to moments where you wish you had said something and you end up being ashamed that you didn't stand up for yourself. That's normal and that's natural, but it's not productive. Not ashamed that I didn't stand up for myself, but it it may does make me think of that because I'm usually quite good at standing up for myself. But in that moment, I did freeze, which is not common for me.
00:57:47
Speaker
Yeah. So, yeah, it's a journey. It's a journey journey. Exactly. What I want to say is like, no matter what feelings come up at that time, feel them and then let them go because you were doing the best you could with the knowledge that you had at the time. but But we have different knowledge now. and We have different skills and abilities now. Yeah.
00:58:05
Speaker
Going into those. And I think that's a really exciting prospect. After this conversation, i can do mental rehearsing, go back to that moment and tell them, tell him, you know what I'm going to say?
00:58:17
Speaker
You should be ashamed of yourself. Because he sure that he knows it. He sure that he knows it. That's right. That's exactly right. Patricia, I'm so proud of you. And I'm proud of all women who are learning how to own their voice and their authorship in this world that is constantly trying to convince us that we don't have a right to our own opinions. that nothing matters and everything is wishy-washy. But like, no, if you feel it, if you feel that it's wrong, it's wrong.
00:58:44
Speaker
Exactly. That's right. Own it, accept it, and do what you can with it. Yes. Okay. All right. On that note. Yes. Thank you for listening, queens, and for all you scrotes.
00:58:59
Speaker
Shame. Shame. Where's the shame bell? Shame. among ah Until next week.