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Framed and Filtered: Exposing Inequality in Film with Sarah from Lainey Gossip
65 Plays6 months ago
Rose is joined by Sarah from Lainey Gossip to dissect the deeply embedded inequalities in the filmmaking and film criticism industries.
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Transcript
Introduction: Meet the Hosts and Guest
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Female Dating Strategy, the meanest female-only website on the internet.
00:00:06
Speaker
I am your host, Rose, and today I am sans Diana, who's not doing well, so let's wish her a quick and healthy return to hail and heartiness.
00:00:16
Speaker
But I'm especially excited, in fact, I'm almost a little even more excited that I get to do this alone because we are with one of my longtime favorite writers about media, Sarah from Lainey Gossip.
00:00:26
Speaker
Sarah, welcome!
00:00:28
Speaker
Hi, thanks for having me.
00:00:29
Speaker
So Sarah is a deputy editor and senior film critic at Lainey Gossip.
00:00:34
Speaker
Even more importantly, she is a movie and pop culture expert.
00:00:38
Speaker
Now, as someone who also considers herself a pop culture expert...
00:00:43
Speaker
I don't think people really understand how important it is because we were talking about this in the pre-show.
00:00:48
Speaker
There's a lot of media literacy that goes into actually becoming a pop culture expert.
00:00:52
Speaker
And we're going to get more into that in a minute.
00:00:54
Speaker
OK, Sarah?
00:00:55
Speaker
OK.
00:00:55
Speaker
But first, for our listeners, I want to quote to you a little bit of one of Sarah's most recent movie reviews.
00:01:04
Speaker
It's a little bit of a lengthy quote, but I think it really goes to show Sarah's like unique and scintillating voice and the way she's able to cut through sort of the noise and just encapsulate and distill movies down to their most pure element.
00:01:22
Speaker
Are you ready, Sarah?
00:01:23
Speaker
Okay.
00:01:24
Speaker
Here we go.
00:01:25
Speaker
Quote,
00:01:26
Speaker
Everything about Another Simple Favor is cunty, from the performances to the dialogue to the clothes to the camera pans.
00:01:34
Speaker
Another Simple Favor is an instant classic of cunt cinema, a genre which includes the work of John Waters, Jennifer's Body, The Craft, Romy and Michelle's High School Reunion, Death Becomes Her, and the parlor stroll scene from Pride and Prejudice of 2005.
00:01:52
Speaker
Another simple favor is about looks and cunt.
00:01:55
Speaker
Emily, queen cunt.
00:01:56
Speaker
Stephanie, mother cunt.
00:01:58
Speaker
Allison Janney, auntie cunt.
00:02:00
Speaker
Elizabeth Perkins, mother cunt by way of a Lifetime Movie of the Week.
00:02:04
Speaker
Nikki, pint-sized cunt.
00:02:06
Speaker
Portia Versano, Dante's Intimidating Mother.
00:02:08
Speaker
Mama Figa, the fashion.
00:02:11
Speaker
Fantasy vacation cut vibes.
00:02:13
Speaker
The men of Another Simple Favor are not serving, though.
00:02:16
Speaker
They have negative energy.
00:02:17
Speaker
They are drips and exist solely to be drippy and advance plot lines so that the women can indulge in Italian country.
00:02:24
Speaker
The forward character Momentum means that Stephanie is no longer the apologetic muffin mom she was in the first film.
00:02:30
Speaker
She squares up to Emily from minute one.
00:02:33
Speaker
And the two women throw so much shade, they're on the dark side of the moon.
00:02:37
Speaker
In a very dark and twisted way, another simple favor shows supportive female friendship, as Emily helps Stephanie rediscover her baddest self so that she can be her best self.
00:02:47
Speaker
But one thing Stephanie never stops being is a total cunt.
00:02:51
Speaker
She is throwing suspicion and side eye from minute one.
00:02:54
Speaker
Fans of A Simple Favor, fans of cunch cinema, and people who like it when women are a little bit mean to them, will like Another Simple Favor for its twists, turns, ludicrous visuals in costumes, and frothy take on revenge thrillers.
00:03:07
Speaker
Sticks in the mud who don't like abracadabra or drag shows will be confused and say the film is bad.
00:03:14
Speaker
But what they mean is that they feel certain that this film is not for them.
00:03:18
Speaker
Because it isn't.
00:03:19
Speaker
Another simple favor is for the cunts, the ones who prize style and expression and comebacks so sharp they leave claw marks.
00:03:27
Speaker
It's for bitches who don't apologize and witches who curse their enemies and sapphics who wish Hitchcock movies had more fucking.
00:03:34
Speaker
But most of all, another simple favor is for cunts who, like their country, served with a side of chilled revenge.
00:03:41
Speaker
Because if revenge isn't cunty, it's just sparkling payback.
00:03:44
Speaker
End quote.
00:03:47
Speaker
That was a good one, too.
00:03:51
Speaker
It is so good.
00:03:53
Speaker
I just hope this gives listeners like the motivation to go and read your reviews because each one is a delight.
00:03:58
Speaker
Okay.
00:03:59
Speaker
This one took it to the next level.
00:04:00
Speaker
I have to say.
00:04:02
Speaker
I especially love that because of Revenge is in Cunty.
00:04:05
Speaker
It's just sparkling payback.
00:04:06
Speaker
But like from start to finish this one, I was in it.
00:04:09
Speaker
You couldn't tear me away.
00:04:10
Speaker
I think I came back and read it several times because it brought me such deep joy, Sarah.
Sarah's Journey in Film Criticism
00:04:14
Speaker
Well, I'm glad.
00:04:15
Speaker
It's like you take a movie and then you turn it into, you know, just like how filmmaking is sort of like our modern day mythology.
00:04:24
Speaker
Would you agree with that statement?
00:04:26
Speaker
It's part of the myth making machine for sure.
00:04:29
Speaker
Well, it's part of the myth-making machines.
00:04:32
Speaker
I feel like the way you write about the myth-making machine...
00:04:37
Speaker
is like an excellent English literature analysis of a text.
00:04:43
Speaker
So you're applying like textual analysis to a meta text in a way, right?
00:04:49
Speaker
Because the visual language that we then have to translate to like the language of emotions, the language of thought, the language of the human experience.
00:04:58
Speaker
And I feel like that's where you just, you really excel, Sarah.
00:05:01
Speaker
And it's so wonderful to read you every week.
00:05:03
Speaker
Well, thank you.
00:05:04
Speaker
Though you mentioned that one of your favorite most recent reviews was for Sinners.
00:05:09
Speaker
Oh, yeah.
00:05:09
Speaker
I mean, sometimes I write things and I'm like, I don't know, we'll see how it goes.
00:05:13
Speaker
But that one I finished and I went back and reread it.
00:05:16
Speaker
And I was like, yeah, that's a pretty good review.
00:05:17
Speaker
I feel like that's some pretty good writing in there.
00:05:19
Speaker
So that one I felt was pretty strong.
00:05:22
Speaker
But another simple favor, I was making myself laugh while writing it.
00:05:26
Speaker
So that's always a sign that I'm on to something too.
00:05:29
Speaker
I wondered because it's like, this is high level comedy.
00:05:32
Speaker
Like, I love that you mentioned the parlor stroll scene from Pride and Prejudice as part of the genre.
00:05:40
Speaker
Oh, my God.
00:05:40
Speaker
And the Mama Figa.
00:05:42
Speaker
Oh, my God.
00:05:42
Speaker
It was operating on another level.
00:05:44
Speaker
And I think you mentioned that this is something you've been doing now for 15 years.
00:05:47
Speaker
Would you take us back to how you actually started at Lainey Gossip?
00:05:51
Speaker
Well, I started my own site called Cinesnark.com, which still exists and it has some really old, not very good reviews archived on it.
00:06:00
Speaker
It mostly exists as an electronic business card these days.
00:06:04
Speaker
And then just a few months after I started my own site, Lainey was going to cover the Cannes Film Festival and she had a little contest on her site for people to submit to get to write for the site while she was busy doing red carpets and things at Cannes.
00:06:19
Speaker
And I submitted and did not get chosen.
00:06:21
Speaker
But then she emailed me after the fest and invited me to contribute regularly to the site.
00:06:25
Speaker
And I've just been contributing ever since.
00:06:28
Speaker
And yeah, it's 15 years this month, May 2025.
00:06:31
Speaker
So that's a long time.
00:06:32
Speaker
Do you see this as something you're ever going to quit?
00:06:34
Speaker
Like, is there anything that would stop you from this sanctified role you've carved out for yourself?
00:06:39
Speaker
I have stated most, like several times online, if I had a billion dollars, I would just go away and no one would ever hear from me again.
00:06:47
Speaker
So if I ever get a billion dollars, I am now legally obligated to go away and no one would ever hear from me again.
00:06:57
Speaker
Anything less than a billion and we still got you.
00:07:00
Speaker
Yeah, pretty much.
00:07:02
Speaker
I mean, because honestly, you know, this is something I say on our website, like I would pay you to be able to be a host at female dating strategy.
00:07:12
Speaker
Like I live for this shit.
00:07:14
Speaker
Like this is my meat and potatoes.
00:07:16
Speaker
This is my bread and water.
00:07:17
Speaker
It's like I live and breathe for this shit because it's like gender politics is politics.
00:07:23
Speaker
Right.
00:07:24
Speaker
Like, I hate that we have to qualify it as a gender politics.
00:07:27
Speaker
You know, men just get to have politics.
00:07:29
Speaker
Why is it that women have to have gender politics?
00:07:31
Speaker
It's bullshit.
00:07:32
Speaker
I get why we have to do that, but it's also bullshit.
00:07:35
Speaker
So like, of course, I love talking about politics.
00:07:37
Speaker
Like it's the state of the world today.
The Political Commentary of Andor
00:07:39
Speaker
Who doesn't like talking about that?
00:07:41
Speaker
But one thing I think I enjoy about movies is that it lets us take commentary and illustrate it for people in a way that maybe lands in a way that cuts through the noise of politics.
00:07:52
Speaker
I don't know.
00:07:53
Speaker
What do you think?
00:07:54
Speaker
Sarah?
00:07:54
Speaker
Well, I think Andor is a really good example of a piece of media where there's been a lot of conversations about its politics.
00:08:01
Speaker
And it's interesting the people who do and don't want to engage with that.
00:08:05
Speaker
And the sheer number of people, sort of the stereotypical Star Wars fan, if you will, the ones who really bitched about The Last Jedi and Rey is a Mary Sue and all of that, really struggling with Andor because I think it is...
00:08:21
Speaker
running against what their politics might be.
00:08:24
Speaker
And it's supporting a worldview that they maybe don't agree with.
00:08:27
Speaker
And they're really, really struggling to just deal with it.
00:08:30
Speaker
They're trying to take it at face value.
00:08:32
Speaker
But I mean, the show is so blatant in season two that they just can't, you know, they can't handle it.
00:08:39
Speaker
There's been a lot of really interesting takes about Andor from people that are clearly just
00:08:43
Speaker
They just don't want to say, I love this show and I don't agree with the politics.
00:08:49
Speaker
Like they can't reconcile those things.
00:08:53
Speaker
Or I think I forget the dude's name and I don't want to put him on blast because I really feel like he might have been going through something with this.
00:08:58
Speaker
He was doing a video essay on Andor and I kind of saw the light bulb click halfway through where I think he had the moment where he was like, I'm an anti-fascist.
00:09:10
Speaker
I am Antifa.
00:09:13
Speaker
Antifa is me.
00:09:15
Speaker
I think he came online in that moment.
00:09:20
Speaker
Wow.
00:09:21
Speaker
It's so interesting.
00:09:21
Speaker
Like, how could anybody be anti-Antifa?
00:09:25
Speaker
Well, it's been so co-opted.
00:09:27
Speaker
It really has.
00:09:28
Speaker
Just like the term woke.
00:09:29
Speaker
Like, oh, you're awake.
00:09:30
Speaker
That's a bad thing.
00:09:31
Speaker
Oh, my God.
00:09:31
Speaker
Like, George Orwell come to life, I swear.
00:09:34
Speaker
Or come back from the dead, I should say.
00:09:36
Speaker
You know, was it in one of your recent critiques where you stated that Andor might be the best
00:09:41
Speaker
Star Wars since the original?
00:09:44
Speaker
Oh, I think it's hands down.
00:09:46
Speaker
I don't think there's even, it's not might or arguable.
00:09:48
Speaker
I think Andor is the best piece of Star Wars media since Empire Strikes Back.
00:09:54
Speaker
What is arguable is I would say Andor has transcended the original trilogy.
00:09:59
Speaker
I would say it is the best piece of Star Wars media.
00:10:02
Speaker
And I say this to someone, the Empire Strikes Back is like a top five movie.
00:10:05
Speaker
That's one of my favorite movies of all time.
00:10:07
Speaker
But I think Andor is extraordinary.
00:10:10
Speaker
And
00:10:11
Speaker
The only reason I think you have to put it second on the list is because it wouldn't exist without the original trilogy.
00:10:17
Speaker
But it is so, so good.
00:10:19
Speaker
I mean, the first season was great.
00:10:22
Speaker
But this second season was just a barn burner of storytelling and just taking such a great... I've always said Star Wars should be big.
00:10:32
Speaker
It should be a big, big story.
00:10:34
Speaker
And they've just made it so small by insisting that everything has to be Skywalkers and Jedi.
00:10:41
Speaker
And just being unable to get away from that.
00:10:44
Speaker
And Andorra said, no, no Skywalkers, no Jedi, no lightsabers.
00:10:48
Speaker
There's only one mention of the Force, and it's at the end of season two.
00:10:52
Speaker
And it's so subtle and well done that it's like it feels completely seamless and not distracting.
00:11:00
Speaker
It's just finally somebody told a story in this universe without space wizards and their light sticks.
00:11:06
Speaker
and prove you can tell a compelling, engaging, entertaining story without those factors.
00:11:14
Speaker
I mean, it's supposed to be a space opera.
00:11:17
Speaker
Operatic is in the title.
00:11:19
Speaker
Okay.
00:11:20
Speaker
And I love that you talk about spacewalkers and their magic sticks because, okay, so I'll confess to you.
00:11:27
Speaker
I love the originals.
00:11:28
Speaker
I still remember like how magical it was seeing the scrolling text at the beginning.
00:11:33
Speaker
Quick aside, it's also why I love and actually own a copy to this day of Spaceballs.
00:11:40
Speaker
Yes.
00:11:42
Speaker
It's so good.
00:11:43
Speaker
Oh, my God.
00:11:45
Speaker
One of Melbrook's best.
00:11:46
Speaker
Yes, one of his best.
00:11:48
Speaker
And so I feel like both were really instrumental.
00:11:50
Speaker
But between both the story of, you know, this mythological story, this tale of the Star Wars, and then also the sort of satirical send up and making light of it.
00:12:00
Speaker
with Spaceballs was such a great sort of twin sides of the coin for me as a youth.
00:12:06
Speaker
But then I'll never forget when they did like the quote unquote prequels.
00:12:10
Speaker
And I went to the prequels and I was like, I was beyond disappointed, right?
00:12:14
Speaker
Like maybe I was at the age where being disillusioned was necessary, but it really kind of turned me off to any more Star Wars.
00:12:21
Speaker
So after that, I refused to engage with any more Star Wars media.
00:12:26
Speaker
In fact, to this day, I haven't watched any of the shows that you've mentioned.
00:12:29
Speaker
Like, I think your most recent review of Andor might have convinced me to give it a try because the way you talked about it, it was like, yes, this is the kind of storytelling I want from this world.
00:12:39
Speaker
Like, these are the sort of stories that need to be told and can reach people in a way that, you know, like the big battle scenes and sort of the high drama of the Jedi isn't necessarily always the only way to tell the story, right?
00:12:54
Speaker
Yeah, well, and especially if you've stayed out of the newer stuff, like Andor is a good entry point because you don't need to know anything except the original trilogy.
00:13:02
Speaker
You don't even need to know Rogue One.
00:13:04
Speaker
I think if you do know Rogue One, there are some things that will hit harder because you know the ultimate ending of everything, which is just makes the tragedy like extra tragic.
00:13:15
Speaker
But I think if you only know the original trilogy, that's fine because Andor starts about five or six years before Star Wars.
00:13:22
Speaker
And it just covers like that period of a few years leading up to the first movie.
00:13:28
Speaker
I mean, there are a couple of characters who are in the prequels like Mon Mothma and Bail Organa, but you will get the context of who they are just from Andor.
00:13:36
Speaker
It does a great job of reestablishing those characters in that time and place away from the prequels.
00:13:42
Speaker
And I will say something very controversial, which is that I think Benjamin Bratt's performance as Bail Organa was better than Jimmy Smith's.
00:13:51
Speaker
Is this a real controversy by saying this?
00:13:53
Speaker
Well, Jimmy Smith has been playing that character since the prequels.
00:13:56
Speaker
And I think he was doing fine, but then he wasn't available for filming of season two of Andor.
00:14:00
Speaker
So they got Benjamin Bratt and he came in and I was immediately like, oh, OK, this is a different taste of who Bail Organa is.
00:14:10
Speaker
And for the first time,
00:14:12
Speaker
I found myself, like, the last glimpse I got of Bail Organa because Benjamin Bratt had this very... He had a more, like, earthiness to him.
00:14:21
Speaker
Like, he played Bail as much more closer to the ground, I think.
00:14:25
Speaker
And the last shot I had of him, I immediately thought, this man is going to be dead within a year.
00:14:30
Speaker
And that is...
00:14:32
Speaker
a tragic loss for the galaxy.
00:14:33
Speaker
The galaxy will be worse off because he is not there when the Rebellion wins.
00:14:39
Speaker
I really felt it.
00:14:40
Speaker
I really felt, oh, now I see how the First Order rises after, you know, the Rebellion wins.
00:14:46
Speaker
They win in Star Wars, they defeat the Empire, and then we come back, you know, 20 whatever, 30 years later, and we're just doing it all over again.
00:14:54
Speaker
Now there's the First Order and they have to form a resistance.
00:14:57
Speaker
And everyone's like, how did this happen?
00:14:58
Speaker
Why didn't it stick?
00:15:00
Speaker
And it's like, well, look at all the,
00:15:02
Speaker
you know, political movements that fail in the real world.
00:15:05
Speaker
But also, I really, really felt at the end of Andor, I'm like, it's because people like Bail Organa died to get there and they weren't there
00:15:16
Speaker
for the rebuilding and kind of only the worst people survive.
00:15:21
Speaker
Like you look at the last shot of Andor at the people who are literally around the table for the sort of what is going to be the start of Star Wars.
00:15:32
Speaker
And there's these two characters.
00:15:34
Speaker
There's a woman and a man.
00:15:35
Speaker
And the man is played by the British actor who played the annoying forensics tech on Sherlock.
00:15:41
Speaker
I can't think of his name.
00:15:42
Speaker
They show up in the new sequel trilogy.
00:15:45
Speaker
They're sort of minor characters who are in those kind of rebellion scenes.
00:15:49
Speaker
But they show up in Rogue One as being established as part of the council of people making decisions with Mon Mothma and stuff.
00:15:55
Speaker
And everyone's like, oh, those two suck.
00:15:58
Speaker
They're always arguing against doing anything and blah, blah, blah.
00:16:01
Speaker
And it's like, well, yeah, but they're centrists and they're trying to appease.
00:16:04
Speaker
They don't want to rock the boat too much.
00:16:07
Speaker
You know, they don't really like where the empire is going.
00:16:10
Speaker
You know, maybe there's a big weapon.
00:16:11
Speaker
They don't like that.
00:16:12
Speaker
But at the same time, they're kind of OK with the status quo.
00:16:17
Speaker
And so it's like, and again, look at our real world politics.
00:16:20
Speaker
How many people?
00:16:23
Speaker
Wait, are you talking about Star Wars still?
00:16:25
Speaker
Yeah, but you kind of look at that shot at the end of Andor and you look around that table and it's like, yeah, those are the people who survived.
00:16:33
Speaker
People like Bail Organa, people who took a side, didn't make it.
Hollywood's Eccentric Actors
00:16:37
Speaker
And I kind of thought walking away from Andor, I'm like, he is why they targeted Alderaan.
00:16:42
Speaker
You know, it's because he was helping, like, I really believe, like, it wasn't random.
00:16:47
Speaker
This is why it happened.
00:16:48
Speaker
It happened because Bael was helping Mon Mothma, because he was very politically powerful.
00:16:54
Speaker
He was very well-liked by the people.
00:16:56
Speaker
He is someone who could emerge as a viable leader after the Empire, and so they had to...
00:17:03
Speaker
not only end him, but make an example of everyone around him.
00:17:08
Speaker
You know, like, it just was like, yeah, of course this is what, and Benjamin Bratt made me believe all of that.
00:17:12
Speaker
Like, he was so good that I was like, I see exactly what the galaxy lost when you died.
00:17:18
Speaker
See, I loved it.
00:17:20
Speaker
I've always felt like Benjamin Bratt has kind of been criminally underserved.
00:17:23
Speaker
Like, because he's so stunningly handsome, they just can't believe him as a character actor.
00:17:28
Speaker
But I feel like that's maybe where he's meant to be.
00:17:30
Speaker
There's this real thing where, like, there are these actors who...
00:17:35
Speaker
aging is the best thing that can happen to them.
00:17:38
Speaker
Like Hugh Grant, and he had a great leading man era.
00:17:41
Speaker
I mean, he was one of the great, you know, especially comedic leading men of like the 90s.
00:17:46
Speaker
But I think he's doing so much richer and interesting work now that he's in his like 50s and he's aged.
00:17:53
Speaker
And I still think he's a very handsome man.
00:17:55
Speaker
He just looks his age.
00:17:57
Speaker
Yeah.
00:17:59
Speaker
But that has opened up a slew of roles that I don't think he would get if he was, you know, if he was coming up as a 20-something now, he wouldn't get work like that.
00:18:08
Speaker
Benjamin Bratt also, like, let's acknowledge he's a brown man and he came up in an era when there weren't as many opportunities.
00:18:14
Speaker
If he was coming up now, he would be Pedro Pascal.
00:18:17
Speaker
That's such a good point.
00:18:19
Speaker
Shit.
00:18:19
Speaker
I mean, you're making me think about how like Jimmy Smith's was the one like Hispanic or Latino.
00:18:25
Speaker
And then also who was a Meg Ryan and let's give him something to talk about.
00:18:31
Speaker
No, wait, that was a different movie.
00:18:32
Speaker
Do you remember when Meg Ryan played an alcoholic?
00:18:34
Speaker
Oh, yeah.
00:18:35
Speaker
What was that movie?
00:18:36
Speaker
Nobody liked her in dramatic roles.
00:18:38
Speaker
And now I can't think of the name of that movie.
00:18:41
Speaker
But I was thinking of, okay, I'm sorry, Sarah, give me a minute.
00:18:43
Speaker
I have to look this up.
00:18:44
Speaker
Okay.
00:18:44
Speaker
Oh, when a man loves a woman.
00:18:47
Speaker
And that was with Andy Garcia.
00:18:49
Speaker
That's the name I was looking for.
00:18:50
Speaker
So Andy Garcia and Jimmy Smith's were like the two brown men that were permitted in Hollywood in the 90s.
00:18:56
Speaker
Well, also, I would say Edward James Olmos.
00:18:59
Speaker
Edward James Olmos.
00:19:00
Speaker
How did I forget about him?
00:19:02
Speaker
Yes.
00:19:03
Speaker
And then Lou Diamond Phillips is your wild card who could play everything from a Latino to a Native American.
00:19:11
Speaker
And these are, by the way, these are all great actors and they've all had really good careers.
00:19:15
Speaker
And Benjamin Bratt has had a good career.
00:19:17
Speaker
Like he's been on huge popular TV shows.
00:19:20
Speaker
He's been in popular movies.
00:19:22
Speaker
I mean, he was promoting Andor and people are bringing up Miss Congeniality because of how much they love that movie.
00:19:26
Speaker
And, you know, it's like he's had a great career.
00:19:28
Speaker
I'm not saying he hasn't had a good career, but I think we can look back and we can acknowledge there are actors who would have been way bigger deals if they got to come up now versus then.
00:19:41
Speaker
That's such a good point.
00:19:42
Speaker
And I like that you're talking about Pedro.
00:19:44
Speaker
Is it Pedro Pascal?
00:19:46
Speaker
Pascal.
00:19:46
Speaker
I thought it was Pascal because he's Chilean, right?
00:19:49
Speaker
Yeah.
00:19:50
Speaker
Yeah.
00:19:50
Speaker
So it's Pedro Pascal.
00:19:52
Speaker
Okay, let's actually pivot a little bit here because I was loving your extemporaneous monologue about Andor.
Cultural Shifts in American Cinema
00:19:59
Speaker
Because again, when I read your reviews, that's what it feels like as well, where I'm like, she's taking me on a journey.
00:20:03
Speaker
I don't even know who she's talking about.
00:20:05
Speaker
But she's breaking it down and making it all legible for me.
00:20:08
Speaker
And I'm here for it.
00:20:09
Speaker
So I would like to ask you a similar question about Pedro Pascal and The Last of Us.
00:20:14
Speaker
I don't think you've reviewed it.
00:20:15
Speaker
Have you?
00:20:16
Speaker
No, I played the video games.
00:20:17
Speaker
And when that show was coming out, I told Lainey, I'm like, I'm not going to be able to do it.
00:20:20
Speaker
I've played the games.
00:20:21
Speaker
I know where it's going.
00:20:22
Speaker
It's so heartbreaking.
00:20:24
Speaker
It's so upsetting.
00:20:25
Speaker
And the fans are so fucking awful.
00:20:28
Speaker
I just can't subject myself to that piece of media.
00:20:31
Speaker
I have seen the show.
00:20:33
Speaker
I have been watching it, but I watch it in my own time.
00:20:35
Speaker
I'm not trying to keep up with it.
00:20:37
Speaker
And I'm not covering.
00:20:38
Speaker
Okay, so you're making me think about how on Reddit, I don't know if you're familiar.
00:20:43
Speaker
I know you know Reddit, but I was gonna say I don't know if you know are familiar with like the Last of Us show subreddit, because it's like a huge it's sort of like this epic blue versus gray with like the players who want the show to be absolutely faithful.
00:20:58
Speaker
to the game and the people who are like, just let the show be a show, like take it on its own merits, take it as its own artistic project.
00:21:05
Speaker
But you're making me think about how like the fans of the video game are like they're diehard, hardcore, almost obsessive, I would argue.
00:21:14
Speaker
But apparently it was a really impactful video game story that people are very loyal to.
00:21:20
Speaker
It's a video game that really, it's on the very short list of games that kind of push that whole form into an art space.
00:21:30
Speaker
Years ago, Roger Ebert, when he was still alive, sort of got into hot water because he said video games can never be art.
00:21:36
Speaker
And people argued with him.
00:21:37
Speaker
And he finally kind of came around to, they can be, a lot of them aren't, but they can reach that level.
00:21:43
Speaker
And The Last of Us is like the storytelling in that game is really good.
00:21:49
Speaker
And the way that they integrate gameplay into the storytelling is very good, quite unique for the era.
00:21:55
Speaker
I think now there are games coming out that are learning lessons from Last of Us.
00:21:59
Speaker
So I do think like, I see why they would be so loyal to it, but I also have zero patience for that kind of argument because video games is one media and TV shows are another and they're never going to be the same.
00:22:11
Speaker
It's like book readers who are like, the movie isn't exactly like the book.
00:22:14
Speaker
It's like, who gives a shit?
00:22:16
Speaker
A movie is a different thing.
00:22:18
Speaker
Like it tells a story in a different way.
00:22:20
Speaker
It's going to have to adapt in different ways.
00:22:23
Speaker
So people just kind of have to grow up and let things live in their own space.
00:22:27
Speaker
Okay.
00:22:27
Speaker
As everybody hearing this, I think this is a really key point.
00:22:30
Speaker
Like everybody has to let things be their own thing.
00:22:34
Speaker
Well, and the game is the game.
00:22:35
Speaker
The game exists.
00:22:36
Speaker
The game has gone nowhere.
00:22:38
Speaker
It's still there.
00:22:39
Speaker
If that's the story that you love, it still exists.
00:22:41
Speaker
That's like when comic book readers flip out about movies not being exactly like the comics.
00:22:46
Speaker
It's like, okay, but the comic still exists.
00:22:48
Speaker
They didn't take it away.
00:22:50
Speaker
You can still go enjoy that version of the story.
00:22:54
Speaker
Here, here, I agree.
00:22:55
Speaker
I get a little tired of like this, like fealty.
00:22:57
Speaker
Maybe it's like the constitutionalists who are like, I only want to take the Constitution literally.
00:23:02
Speaker
And if that means that women are still slaves, then that's what the founders meant.
00:23:07
Speaker
You know what I mean?
00:23:08
Speaker
I'm really curious to ask you, Sarah, like, so you came to write about film.
00:23:13
Speaker
But as we were talking about in the pre-show, like, I think, did I get this correct?
00:23:17
Speaker
You're also a liberal arts background person?
00:23:19
Speaker
Yeah.
00:23:20
Speaker
Yeah, I studied English and art in college.
00:23:22
Speaker
I used to joke that my degree was in useless and worthless.
00:23:27
Speaker
But at this point, I make as much money writing about movies and stuff as I do in my day job.
00:23:34
Speaker
So I can no longer say it's useless and worthless.
00:23:39
Speaker
Like I'm making a good living because of this.
00:23:42
Speaker
The same thing happened to me, Sarah.
00:23:44
Speaker
I did English Lit and piano.
00:23:46
Speaker
And I was harassed and heckled for decades about that.
00:23:50
Speaker
And now I'm making more than almost everybody I grew up with.
00:23:53
Speaker
So again, who's laughing now, folks?
00:23:56
Speaker
Like, I'm so grateful for the liberal arts and the humanities, because I think that's what's actually missing from...
00:24:01
Speaker
the modern conversation.
00:24:03
Speaker
I think it's like, when we're like, why aren't people connecting?
00:24:05
Speaker
And why does it seem like we're at cross communications and la la la la?
00:24:09
Speaker
I'm like, because nobody has this like common ground, you know, but so tell me how you came from English and art.
00:24:18
Speaker
How did you decide on that?
00:24:19
Speaker
And then how did you remain true to that?
00:24:24
Speaker
I don't really know how I decided on it.
00:24:26
Speaker
I actually went into college with international relations as my major.
00:24:29
Speaker
And then September 11th happened.
00:24:31
Speaker
And I noped out of that so fast.
00:24:34
Speaker
I was like, oh, I literally had a professor who the day of we had to go to class and I had a seminar that day.
00:24:40
Speaker
And he said, if you do not have the stomach, he said, think about this seriously.
00:24:45
Speaker
Like, I know a lot of you are 18, 19 years old, but think about this seriously.
00:24:50
Speaker
Do you have a stomach to someday be an aide to a war crimes tribunal at The Hague?
00:24:57
Speaker
Could you sift through the images and the data and the information you would have to intake to distill it for a lawyer or a politician who needs to understand the
00:25:12
Speaker
you know, the genocide that just happened or something that's gone on in the world that's horrible.
00:25:16
Speaker
And he gave us a case study from the nineties, which was Sobrenica, which was part of the Balkan Wars.
00:25:23
Speaker
And there was a, a mass murder and that was uncovered.
00:25:26
Speaker
And there was a trial at the Hague and we had to study that.
00:25:29
Speaker
And he's like, if you don't have the stomach, you know,
00:25:33
Speaker
For this, you are not going to have the stomach for the next 20 to 30 years of American politics.
00:25:40
Speaker
And by the end of the semester, I was like, I'm out.
00:25:43
Speaker
I'm going to study creative writing and photography.
00:25:48
Speaker
I'm impressed.
00:25:48
Speaker
You know what?
00:25:49
Speaker
Kudos to that professor.
00:25:51
Speaker
No, he knew.
00:25:51
Speaker
He knew exactly where it was going.
00:25:53
Speaker
The day of, he was like, it's going to get very dark.
00:25:56
Speaker
He's like, we're going to give up huge personal and civil liberties in the name of safety that really won't accomplish anything except creating an even stronger surveillance state, which is exactly what happened with the Patriot Act.
00:26:07
Speaker
And, you know, he was like, it's just going to be really bad from here on out.
00:26:12
Speaker
I wish the young I wish the youngsters and the youth could understand how two things have really changed the trajectory who have brought us to this current timeline.
00:26:22
Speaker
The Patriot Act is one and Citizens United is the other.
00:26:27
Speaker
Oh, yeah.
00:26:28
Speaker
Yeah.
00:26:28
Speaker
I feel like with those two, it was sort of like the death knell of of the the project of democracy that we had been on a path to.
00:26:37
Speaker
Right.
00:26:37
Speaker
It completely rerouted us.
00:26:39
Speaker
And now now here we are in the worst timeline.
00:26:42
Speaker
And your professor absolutely called
Sarah's Academic Transition
00:26:44
Speaker
it.
00:26:44
Speaker
You know why?
00:26:44
Speaker
Because he knew his history.
00:26:46
Speaker
Well, yeah, he was also like a diplomatist and was a literal world-renowned expert in diplomacy and international relations.
00:26:56
Speaker
And he was like, yeah, I know where this is going.
00:26:58
Speaker
This is not going to be good.
00:27:00
Speaker
I called it.
00:27:00
Speaker
I called it.
00:27:01
Speaker
And he did call it.
00:27:03
Speaker
It sounds like he did it in a very humane and respectful way so that students wouldn't feel like a failure if they were like, I'm honestly grappling and realizing this isn't for me.
00:27:12
Speaker
You know, it'd be very easy to shame and like be sort of patronizing as a world expert on that sort of thing.
00:27:19
Speaker
But it sounds like he was very humble about it.
00:27:22
Speaker
Yeah, he was a great professor.
00:27:25
Speaker
Even though I'd ended up not pursuing that major, he was one that was one of the best classes I took my entire college career.
00:27:31
Speaker
But I think I going back to your original question, like I went to the University of Southern California, which has, you know, the top film school in the world.
00:27:40
Speaker
I think they kind of jockey for position with AFI and UCLA.
00:27:43
Speaker
But, you know, they're kind of right up there.
00:27:45
Speaker
And
00:27:46
Speaker
And even not being a cinema major, I still ended up taking cinema classes.
00:27:51
Speaker
You know, there's just so many crossover points, especially with something like literature that, you know, I took classes in, uh,
00:27:59
Speaker
Italian neorealism and French new wave cinema.
00:28:01
Speaker
I took classes in feminist cinema.
00:28:04
Speaker
And so I took several cinema classes just through the course of my English major.
00:28:09
Speaker
But I'd always loved movies.
00:28:10
Speaker
You know, I just even as a kid, like I would stay up late, watch the Oscars as a kid, you know, like I loved movies and and watched a lot of movies and
00:28:20
Speaker
Then there was just one New Year's Eve.
00:28:22
Speaker
I was like, you know what?
00:28:22
Speaker
I'm going to start a movie blog.
00:28:24
Speaker
I'm going to do that.
00:28:25
Speaker
And literally on January 1st, 2010, I started my own site.
00:28:28
Speaker
And within six months, I was contributing to Laney Gossip.
00:28:32
Speaker
Unreal.
00:28:33
Speaker
Oh my gosh, that's such a wonderful story.
00:28:35
Speaker
I love that because, you know, I think we often think it's like we have to have some big sort of come to Jesus moment.
00:28:41
Speaker
Like the kids call it a Canada event where you're like, this is absolutely what I must do.
00:28:46
Speaker
And like, you know, it's clearly demarcated from decision A to result B. But I think a lot of times it's much quieter than that.
00:28:54
Speaker
And your story sort of illustrates that.
00:28:56
Speaker
Like, you know, little by little, the things we like that interest us, that have impacted us,
00:29:01
Speaker
They matter.
00:29:02
Speaker
And we need to we need to engage with that.
Women in Film Criticism
00:29:05
Speaker
That's so neat that what you actually had that thought.
00:29:07
Speaker
And then six months later, like all of this started because I've been following I don't even know how I you know, I do know how I found lady gossip.
00:29:16
Speaker
And I've been with her not since the newsletter, but when she went online, she was brought to the attention of the Fug Girls, the Go Fug Yourself.
00:29:24
Speaker
Oh, yeah.
00:29:25
Speaker
Heather and Jessica.
00:29:26
Speaker
And like on every Friday, they have a collection of links that they want to share with their readers.
00:29:33
Speaker
And one of them was a Laney Gossip article.
00:29:35
Speaker
And I clicked on it and I was like, huh.
00:29:38
Speaker
And then I started to read the other articles.
00:29:39
Speaker
Yeah.
00:29:40
Speaker
And I haven't stopped since then.
00:29:42
Speaker
Like I, it's still one of my daily sites that I go to.
00:29:46
Speaker
So I still remember very clearly when you came on, I was like, yeah, what a great idea.
00:29:49
Speaker
Because I mean, the whole world of film is basically, you know, it's a bedrock to this whole pop culture and myth-making machine, right?
00:30:03
Speaker
That occupies all of our, most people's bandwidth is caught up with movies and TVs.
00:30:09
Speaker
Right.
00:30:10
Speaker
And yet I don't know if we really engage, I don't know if we really engage with what that means for us as a, as humanity.
00:30:17
Speaker
Does that make sense?
00:30:19
Speaker
Yeah.
00:30:19
Speaker
I don't know that we have to engage with that all the time.
00:30:26
Speaker
I do think it's okay just to watch things and be entertained.
00:30:28
Speaker
It's okay to watch things and as escapism, like we all have our comfort shows.
00:30:33
Speaker
Um, yeah.
00:30:34
Speaker
But I actually just recently restarted one of mine.
00:30:37
Speaker
I started my bones, my semi-annual bones rewatch.
00:30:42
Speaker
Oh my God.
00:30:42
Speaker
I love bones.
00:30:43
Speaker
You know, I don't actually, so Sarah, I'm a bit of a Luddite in that I don't have a TV.
00:30:48
Speaker
I bet she never owned a TV.
00:30:50
Speaker
But if you have a computer, that doesn't count anymore.
00:30:52
Speaker
Thank you.
00:30:53
Speaker
Exactly.
00:30:53
Speaker
I have a computer and like all my friends have given me like their Netflix and their HBO and the Amazon Prime accounts.
00:31:01
Speaker
So I'll never forget when I actually, one of my roommates was like watching Bones while she cooked.
00:31:06
Speaker
And I was like, what's this?
00:31:07
Speaker
And she's like, oh my God, it's just the best show ever.
00:31:09
Speaker
And I was really bored and I was like, all right, I'll give it a try.
00:31:11
Speaker
And then I proceeded to like sit in my bedroom for three or four days straight and just binge watch the whole thing because it's,
00:31:18
Speaker
It's addictive.
00:31:19
Speaker
Oh, yeah.
00:31:20
Speaker
Well, it's that procedural format, man.
00:31:23
Speaker
It just gets its hooks in.
00:31:26
Speaker
And that's a show that like there's obviously some things in it that don't hold up super great because it launched in 2005.
00:31:31
Speaker
And it sounds sort of cheap to say it was a different time, but it literally
Storytelling's Role in Media
00:31:36
Speaker
was.
00:31:36
Speaker
Like literally it was 20 years ago.
00:31:39
Speaker
And I think there well, I think one thing that doesn't get credited enough is how fast things changed in the 2010s.
00:31:47
Speaker
And I think part of the political moment we're living through right now is a backlash to how fast things changed in the 2010s.
00:31:53
Speaker
Yeah.
00:31:56
Speaker
When we started that decade, people were like, okay, the Marvel movies got really big in the 2010s, right?
00:32:02
Speaker
And people were like, after the Avengers, they were like, oh, maybe a Black Widow movie?
00:32:07
Speaker
Because Scarlett Johansson was already a big popular movie star in 2012.
00:32:11
Speaker
When the Avengers came out, she and Robert Downey Jr. were like the marquee names.
00:32:17
Speaker
And Mark Ruffalo and Jeremy Renner were there for a little bit of, you know, cinematic cred.
00:32:23
Speaker
But, you know, people were like, maybe a Black Widow movie.
00:32:26
Speaker
And then comic book fans were like, well, there's actually another character called Captain Marvel who's way more powerful and like kind of has these big storylines.
00:32:35
Speaker
And then there's also this guy, Black Panther.
00:32:38
Speaker
He's really cool.
00:32:39
Speaker
People were calling for those movies and
00:32:42
Speaker
And it was two or three years before Marvel greenlit them.
00:32:45
Speaker
And some of that was like the guy who ran Marvel at the time was sort of notorious.
00:32:49
Speaker
Like he's Ike Perlmutter.
00:32:51
Speaker
He's a buddy of Trump's and famously said, like people wouldn't go see superhero movies starring women, basing that on the fact that boys don't buy girl action figurines, even though in the 80s, toy companies were allowed to not manufacture action figurines with girl characters.
00:33:07
Speaker
What?!
00:33:08
Speaker
Yeah, there was like, everything bad goes back to Reagan.
00:33:11
Speaker
It was part of his big deregulation.
00:33:14
Speaker
There used to be actual, like, rules.
00:33:17
Speaker
There were industry regulations that toy companies could not manufacture toys that were distinct boy-girls.
00:33:24
Speaker
So, like...
00:33:25
Speaker
If you sold a ball, you would sell a red ball or a yellow ball because the boys and girls are gonna buy the same ball.
00:33:32
Speaker
But then that all got deregulated and now there's a pink ball and a blue ball.
00:33:36
Speaker
And if you have a boy and a girl at home, you have to buy both balls.
00:33:39
Speaker
They can't share a red ball.
00:33:40
Speaker
They each have to have their own color coded ball
00:33:43
Speaker
All of that started in the 80s and it's you can actually see it happen in real time with Star Wars toys because the first movie came out in 1977.
00:33:51
Speaker
The second movie came out in 1980 and the third movie didn't come out until like it was at 1985 Return of the Jedi.
00:33:58
Speaker
And between 1980 and 1985 the regulation took place and look at how many Leia toys are produced in 77 and 80 verse 85.
00:34:08
Speaker
Sarah, I did not realize this.
00:34:10
Speaker
Yeah, everything bad goes back to Reagan.
00:34:12
Speaker
I have one friend who has never left Minnesota and she's a dear friend, you know, like a kindergarten bestie.
00:34:22
Speaker
She is quite conservative for my taste, not to the point where she voted for Trump, but it's been concerning.
00:34:27
Speaker
And at one point, you know, I was telling her, um,
00:34:30
Speaker
about so I came to Chicago for graduate school I've had all my schooling funded I've gotten full rides for everything which I'm really appreciative of I did work hard for it but like I obviously had a lot of privileges that I got those but at one point I was telling her yeah I've got this trip that's been sponsored to Brazil and I'm getting this much of a stipend and this is covered and la la la and she's like yeah thanks to our taxpayer dollars and I was like dear friend taxpayer dollars haven't funded the arts since Reagan
00:34:59
Speaker
Yeah.
00:35:00
Speaker
I mean, literally Sesame Street was just picked up by Netflix.
00:35:05
Speaker
I saw that.
00:35:06
Speaker
Thank you, Netflix.
00:35:07
Speaker
Oh, my God.
00:35:08
Speaker
I can't believe I'm thinking Netflix for this.
00:35:10
Speaker
And they have to do.
00:35:12
Speaker
People are like, why does Sesame Street do commercials?
00:35:14
Speaker
They shouldn't be.
00:35:15
Speaker
Those characters shouldn't be selling.
00:35:17
Speaker
They shouldn't be shills.
00:35:18
Speaker
And it's like they have to.
00:35:20
Speaker
They have to because they don't get enough money to produce the high quality commercials.
00:35:24
Speaker
you know, children's entertainment that they do, that funding disappeared years ago.
00:35:30
Speaker
So yes, they have to license those characters for birthday cards and commercials and, you know, cheap shit like that so that they can keep the lights on.
00:35:39
Speaker
Fred Rogers said it, you know, to produce high quality children's entertainment is expensive.
00:35:45
Speaker
Um, so, and it's, and now there's Miss Rachel.
00:35:48
Speaker
She's like the modern Mr. Rogers.
00:35:50
Speaker
She's, she's on Netflix too, you know, like it's, it's all private equity now.
00:35:55
Speaker
So yeah, it's all, it's the capitalism has gotten its, it's claws into everything.
00:36:00
Speaker
I've just heard about Miss Rachel because apparently I don't know anything about her.
00:36:04
Speaker
I thought maybe she was a YouTuber.
00:36:06
Speaker
I just didn't know because, you know, apparently she's for children.
00:36:10
Speaker
And the reason she came to my attention was because apparently she was being interviewed by the New York Times and they were like, oh, so you support genocide or some question like that about the the Gaza Israeli issue.
00:36:23
Speaker
And apparently that was like the most ridiculous question because she just does like content for kids.
00:36:27
Speaker
And it's like, how are you how are you bringing that into and like accusing her in this type of interview format?
00:36:33
Speaker
But, you know, the New York Times has been fucked for a while.
00:36:35
Speaker
So, like, I don't know why people are surprised.
00:36:38
Speaker
Excuse me.
00:36:40
Speaker
Okay, so Sarah, once you started writing, you haven't stopped writing.
00:36:45
Speaker
Do you have any pretensions or ambitions to like having a collection of your own reviews published or even writing a book about film?
00:36:54
Speaker
Like, have you ever thought about anything like that?
00:36:56
Speaker
Not to the extent that I've tried to make anything happen.
00:36:59
Speaker
I just finished, I just turned in this last week, my second magazine article.
00:37:05
Speaker
I have been published in a book.
00:37:06
Speaker
I have an essay in a book that came out a few years ago.
00:37:10
Speaker
But I haven't like, I guess if somebody came up to me and was like, we want to publish something and you write it, I'd be like, okay, cool.
00:37:17
Speaker
But not enough to like put any effort into making it happen, mainly because I do have a day job.
00:37:26
Speaker
And I produce several thousands of words a week for Laney Gossip, which is essentially like a whole second job.
00:37:35
Speaker
I regularly, and I'm not complaining, but the reality is I am regularly working 60 to 80 hour weeks.
00:37:44
Speaker
if somebody was going to be like, write a book, I would have to, I would kind of say, you have to pay me enough to take time.
00:37:50
Speaker
Like you have to pay me enough that I can take time off of one of my two jobs to make that happen.
00:37:55
Speaker
Because I literally don't know when that would happen and sort of prove positive of that.
00:38:01
Speaker
We're recording this on a Saturday morning.
00:38:03
Speaker
We both got up earlier than we wanted to, to record this because it's the only time that I had.
00:38:09
Speaker
And I really appreciate that, Sarah.
Film's Impact on Society and Individuals
00:38:11
Speaker
I really do.
00:38:12
Speaker
Because I'm somebody who loves to sleep.
00:38:14
Speaker
And I love to sleep in and I have the most comfortable, luxurious bed.
00:38:18
Speaker
And so anything that gets me out of it, I'm always like resentful for but I wasn't for you because I've been looking forward to talking to you for quite some time.
00:38:25
Speaker
Like you were, you're one of the first people I was like, we have to interview Sarah.
00:38:28
Speaker
And Diana was like, well, what are we gonna talk about?
00:38:30
Speaker
I was like, it doesn't matter.
00:38:32
Speaker
She'll have plenty to talk about.
00:38:33
Speaker
And it's all gonna be interesting.
00:38:34
Speaker
Yeah.
00:38:35
Speaker
And here we are.
00:38:36
Speaker
Like, I actually didn't think you'd say yes, but I really pleased you did.
00:38:39
Speaker
Because I feel like, you know, I was saying to you in the pre-talk, like, you know, I've always been somebody who loves to read.
00:38:46
Speaker
Just an avid reader.
00:38:47
Speaker
And if I if I actually add up, you know, how many books I read per year.
00:38:52
Speaker
And by the way, didn't you just mention that Lainey is talking about a sub stack for a book club?
00:38:57
Speaker
We have the substat called the squawk and we will be adding like a monthly book club to it this summer.
00:39:05
Speaker
Nice.
00:39:06
Speaker
Very nice.
00:39:07
Speaker
I love the squawk.
00:39:08
Speaker
I actually don't subscribe to it because, you know, I'm like cheap, but also I own Lainey's book about her mother, the squawking chicken.
00:39:16
Speaker
And, you know, I get plenty of, of Lainey on a day to day, although I think it's worthwhile, but yeah,
00:39:22
Speaker
I was trying to calculate, you know, how many books do I read per year?
00:39:26
Speaker
And I'm going to do a humble brag, Sarah.
00:39:28
Speaker
But I think I average between.
00:39:30
Speaker
I'm somewhere between 250 and 400 books a year.
00:39:34
Speaker
Wow, that's I run about 100 books a year.
00:39:40
Speaker
Yep.
00:39:41
Speaker
Now, I would say that my advantage is I am a speed reader.
00:39:45
Speaker
Oh, yeah, I'm not.
00:39:46
Speaker
Yeah.
00:39:46
Speaker
Well, I didn't realize that was a thing until I went to college and people were like, how are you finishing?
00:39:50
Speaker
Like you're finishing in half the time the same text.
00:39:53
Speaker
And I was like, oh, I don't know.
00:39:55
Speaker
And then somebody's like, well, are you a speed reader?
00:39:57
Speaker
I was like, what's that?
00:39:59
Speaker
But I think because I just been reading for so long, it became like this.
00:40:02
Speaker
crazy, this crazy speed.
00:40:04
Speaker
And it's just like, I can't consume enough literature.
00:40:07
Speaker
But what does slow me down from only consuming literature, excuse me,
00:40:14
Speaker
are movies way more than TV shows, actually.
00:40:16
Speaker
I mean, I do watch some TV shows.
00:40:18
Speaker
Excuse me.
00:40:19
Speaker
I mentioned The Last of Us.
00:40:20
Speaker
That's what I have been watching.
00:40:22
Speaker
I need to get back to Hacks.
00:40:24
Speaker
I was really enjoying that when I watched that.
00:40:28
Speaker
But I think it's movies more than anything that actually will pull me out of the world of literature and back to sort of mass media in this day and age.
00:40:37
Speaker
In fact, I just the last two movies I went to in the theater, by the way, I love how you write about the business of
00:40:44
Speaker
of movie theaters and like how they how they're dying but it's like they're dying because they're refusing to change and and grow and offer different things like they're trying to do the same old same old and people are like yeah but I could stay home right and
00:41:00
Speaker
But the last two movies I went to in the theaters, because I do want to support movie theaters.
00:41:04
Speaker
One was Sinners, which was, you know, a barn burner of a film, literally.
00:41:09
Speaker
And that, excuse me.
00:41:13
Speaker
And then the other was Thunderbolts.
00:41:18
Speaker
And I went because a friend of mine who is a huge Marvel person, like she just went to Comic-Con in Tokyo last month.
00:41:25
Speaker
Yeah.
00:41:26
Speaker
She goes to a lot of Comic-Cons.
00:41:29
Speaker
And she's actually a USC person, too.
00:41:30
Speaker
So maybe that has something to do with it.
00:41:32
Speaker
But she keeps me up to date on the world of Marvel.
00:41:37
Speaker
If she tells me to watch... It's like you and my friend are the two people I listen to.
00:41:41
Speaker
She also told me to watch Andor.
00:41:43
Speaker
So between the two of you, I'm like, okay, well, I guess now I have to watch it, right?
00:41:46
Speaker
But...
00:41:47
Speaker
I was asking her, like, do I want to go see this movie?
00:41:49
Speaker
Like, I admit it looks, I love Florence Pugh.
00:41:52
Speaker
She's always a charismatic performer.
00:41:55
Speaker
And she was like, you've got to go see this movie.
00:41:57
Speaker
She's like, it deals with mental health in a way that I've never seen it dealt with before.
00:42:02
Speaker
And it does it in such a beautiful and humane way.
00:42:05
Speaker
And I was like, what are we talking about a Marvel movie?
00:42:08
Speaker
But I think that's the thing.
00:42:09
Speaker
It's like,
00:42:10
Speaker
Now that it's become such a big industry, they're able to bring on different kinds of storytellers and different kinds of stories and casts than we would have seen back from the day of the original Captain Marvel movie, right?
00:42:24
Speaker
Yeah.
00:42:25
Speaker
Yeah.
00:42:27
Speaker
It definitely deals with mental health in a way we haven't
Inspirations and Advice for Aspiring Critics
00:42:29
Speaker
seen in a comic book movie before.
00:42:31
Speaker
I think there are other movies that deal with mental health in better ways than Thunderbolts did.
00:42:34
Speaker
But for a comic book movie, that was like a very nuanced take on depression.
00:42:40
Speaker
Yeah.
00:42:41
Speaker
Yes, exactly.
00:42:42
Speaker
Like, of course, yes, it's for a comic book movie.
00:42:45
Speaker
But like, that's an audience that typically that sort of story is not told to.
00:42:49
Speaker
Right.
00:42:50
Speaker
And so in many ways, it's sort of like the fact that it's a Marvel movie is a bit of a Trojan horse as far as like allowing them to be exposed to themes of mental health and just like the power of friendship.
00:43:02
Speaker
I'm such a sucker.
00:43:03
Speaker
What can I say?
00:43:05
Speaker
But so this is something that I really think is.
00:43:08
Speaker
brings us back again and again to humanity is like sharing, going to movies.
00:43:12
Speaker
So like when I went to see Sinners in the movie theater, I specifically went to a black neighborhood.
00:43:19
Speaker
I'm here on the South side in Chicago.
00:43:21
Speaker
And I was like, you know what?
00:43:22
Speaker
I don't want to be surrounded by white people in like river East.
00:43:25
Speaker
I want to go to a black theater.
00:43:27
Speaker
And I was, I think one of two white people, it was sold out.
00:43:31
Speaker
Every seat was crowded.
00:43:34
Speaker
And it was the most, I also did this with black Panther.
00:43:36
Speaker
I also went to a black movie theater for that because I'm like, this, these are the audiences who are thirstiest for these kinds of movies who have never been served these sorts of stories.
00:43:45
Speaker
And,
00:43:45
Speaker
And I want to be among them.
00:43:46
Speaker
It's almost like a historical moment when you get to see how electrified the audience gets in the midst of such storytelling that's designed for them and their own particular culture.
00:43:59
Speaker
Is that something you've ever sought out when you're going to see movies in movie theaters?
00:44:03
Speaker
Oh, sure.
00:44:04
Speaker
I went to see Top Gun Maverick at a 11 a.m.
00:44:08
Speaker
matinee on a weekday.
00:44:10
Speaker
So it was just me and all the retired boomer dads.
00:44:13
Speaker
Oh.
00:44:15
Speaker
And was it amazing?
00:44:17
Speaker
It was.
00:44:17
Speaker
They were so into it.
00:44:21
Speaker
That is such a, I mean, let's be real.
00:44:23
Speaker
Was it the DP of that movie?
00:44:25
Speaker
Insane cinematography.
00:44:28
Speaker
Yeah.
00:44:28
Speaker
I mean, I think you hook a camera to a fighter jet and you're going to get something interesting out of it.
00:44:34
Speaker
I would actually, I mean, I don't want to downplay the contribution of...
00:44:39
Speaker
the cinematographer of that film, but the editor, Eddie Hamilton, literally had to go through something like 800 hours of flight footage.
00:44:47
Speaker
to cut together those scenes, much of which had puke in shot because people were throwing up.
00:44:56
Speaker
Oh my God.
00:44:57
Speaker
I did really 800 hours.
00:44:59
Speaker
Oh my.
00:44:59
Speaker
Yeah.
00:44:59
Speaker
They had an insane amount of flight hours recorded and between editing for time and editing around puke and managing to build in story and character beats and
00:45:11
Speaker
The only the only cut I disagree with is there was a moment of Glenn Powell singing hot for teacher when he was dogfighting with Maverick.
00:45:20
Speaker
And I'm like, they should have left that in.
00:45:22
Speaker
Why did they take that out?
00:45:24
Speaker
Because at this point, they are extremely consciously aware of the gay following of Top Gun.
00:45:31
Speaker
And Val Kilmer always leaned in.
00:45:35
Speaker
He was always proud of that.
00:45:37
Speaker
You know, he was always supportive of the fact that Top Gun was embraced by the queer community.
00:45:41
Speaker
And I think the younger cast also were aware and leaning into it for sure.
00:45:47
Speaker
But I think Tom Cruise and some of the other people involved were like, no, no.
00:45:53
Speaker
lame fucking lame that could have elevated it to like a never-before-seen level of camp that we rarely see from like hero fight films come on i think it would have been a brilliant inclusion but at the same time even without that scene the fanfic for top gun maverick is off the charts horny and queer so
00:46:16
Speaker
I might have to seek that out because that just that does sound really fun oh my god I was so sad to see that Val Kilmer passed away but didn't he just die this last year he did just a few months ago um after you know he'd had a very public sort of battle with cancer and it's a loss he was a very uh brilliant actor difficult to work with but a brilliant actor
00:46:39
Speaker
I remember reading his autobiography and I think the, the, the section I liked best was when he talked about Cher, because, you know, we often hear Cher is such a quotable, she's had so many quips, right.
00:46:50
Speaker
Where she's like, you know, a man is a necessity.
00:46:53
Speaker
A man is a luxury like dessert.
00:46:56
Speaker
Or the mom, I am a rich man story.
00:46:59
Speaker
Like, there's just so many you could quote from Cher.
00:47:01
Speaker
But like, rarely do you ever hear men talk about Cher, which I guess is a testament to like her goddess status.
00:47:09
Speaker
So they're just like, I'm not even going to dare.
00:47:10
Speaker
But in his chapter on Cher and his autobiography, like a more laudatory, respectful, like genuine,
00:47:18
Speaker
Testament to her.
00:47:20
Speaker
I've never read before or since.
00:47:21
Speaker
So if you're interested in share people, go check out Val Kilmer's autobiography because there's a really nice chapter in there about that.
00:47:27
Speaker
Well, he was also just like a wildly entertaining person.
00:47:32
Speaker
So the whole book is and there's a documentary.
00:47:34
Speaker
I think it's on Amazon Prime.
00:47:36
Speaker
That's called Val.
00:47:39
Speaker
And he's just like a wildly entertaining.
00:47:43
Speaker
Cannot stress enough that he could be difficult to work with.
00:47:46
Speaker
Not every co-star loved him.
00:47:48
Speaker
Um, but he, not every director loved him either.
00:47:52
Speaker
He could be difficult, but genuinely a brilliant actor and just a wildly entertaining person.
00:47:59
Speaker
And I have to just shout out Val Kilmer for one.
00:48:03
Speaker
He was right out of Juilliard when he made top secret, which is one of the great comedies of the eighties.
00:48:09
Speaker
And he went back to back to back top secret, real genius, top gun.
00:48:15
Speaker
If he never made another movie, that would have been a King run.
00:48:19
Speaker
Like, yeah,
00:48:20
Speaker
And then he took like a year off and then it was Willow.
00:48:22
Speaker
I mean, just banger after banger.
00:48:26
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it was incredible.
00:48:28
Speaker
And just going, those performances are all great.
00:48:33
Speaker
But he opened the door for handsome weirdos like Ryan Gosling and Jake Gyllenhaal.
00:48:40
Speaker
We have a generation of eccentric actors, proudly eccentric leading men because of Val Kilmer.
00:48:48
Speaker
Like he blew that door down.
00:48:49
Speaker
They didn't really know what to do with him in the 80s.
00:48:52
Speaker
I think the fact that he's making silly comedies and movies like Top Gun and then Willow and then Tombstone, like people just didn't really know where to put him because he was so fucking handsome and so charismatic.
00:49:07
Speaker
Yeah.
00:49:07
Speaker
but also had a real cerebral quality in his performances that I think at a time when things were a lot simpler, it was, they just didn't know what slot to put him in.
00:49:21
Speaker
Like he was a comedian for a minute.
00:49:23
Speaker
He's an action star.
00:49:24
Speaker
We're going to try him in drama.
00:49:26
Speaker
He's great at that.
00:49:27
Speaker
I mean, like, you know, that obviously I think was probably the best thing, but maybe romantic, maybe a romantic leading man.
00:49:34
Speaker
Now we're going to try action again.
00:49:35
Speaker
You know, they just never really found the place because he was just so multi-talented.
00:49:41
Speaker
But yeah, and so eccentric.
00:49:43
Speaker
Like he was eccentric at a time when Hollywood did not want to sell eccentricity.
00:49:48
Speaker
Yeah, I'm thinking about I'll Never Forget the Stories from the set of The Island of Dr. Moreau.
00:49:55
Speaker
Do you remember those tales?
00:49:56
Speaker
Yes.
00:49:57
Speaker
And again, there is a documentary about the making of the Island of Dr. Moreau, which I would strongly recommend because it was just a cuckoo bananas process.
00:50:08
Speaker
And Rob Moreau, who was like at the peak of his Northern exposure fame, was supposed to play the role that David Thewlis ended up playing.
00:50:17
Speaker
And he was like literally in tears calling his agent from the set saying, please get me out of here.
00:50:25
Speaker
It's just, if you watch The Making of Island of Dr. Moreau and then Tropic Thunder, I know there are also, like, watch Heart of Darkness 2, The Making of Apocalypse Now, because that's another Cuckoo Bananas film shoot.
00:50:40
Speaker
But there's a lot of Dr. Moreau in Tropic Thunder.
00:50:44
Speaker
Like, clearly Ben Stiller and his friends were hearing those stories.
00:50:50
Speaker
So...
00:50:51
Speaker
That makes a lot of sense.
00:50:53
Speaker
That does make a lot of sense.
00:50:54
Speaker
Oh my gosh.
00:50:55
Speaker
I feel like, you know what?
00:50:57
Speaker
We're almost to the end of our time, which makes me sad because we were talking before we were like, Hey, let's, I said, we normally do an outline.
The Essence of Criticism
00:51:04
Speaker
So it was like, I'll do my best, but like I go on a lot of tangents and I was like, you've got the galaxy brain.
00:51:09
Speaker
I'm here for it.
00:51:11
Speaker
And it hasn't been such a blast because this is the kind of conversation.
00:51:15
Speaker
I love a free flowing conversation.
00:51:17
Speaker
I, of course we have so many cultural touchstones, but,
00:51:20
Speaker
Well, this is something that I want to bring it back to before we end.
00:51:23
Speaker
So oftentimes in female dating strategy, people are like, why don't you talk more about dating?
00:51:28
Speaker
And that's something, you know, we're always open to that critique.
00:51:30
Speaker
And we're always happy to get back to like the handbook and go through some of the things that, you know, our, our wise superiors have, have compiled for us.
00:51:38
Speaker
But
00:51:39
Speaker
I guess one of the things I want our listeners to understand is like part of being a healthy person is having interests and passions and hobbies and things that just like bring you to these tangents that you just never want to end.
00:51:53
Speaker
You know, I think if you if you cultivate that kind of character, if and when you meet somebody, you're going to be a person.
00:51:58
Speaker
you're actually going to have a foundation to build a proper relationship on it.
00:52:02
Speaker
If you're somebody who's just waiting to be picked, if you're somebody who's just like all of your energy and focus goes toward finding the man of your dreams, I think you've all but guaranteed yourself tragedy and sadness and heartbreak, right?
00:52:16
Speaker
Like you need to become a fully fledged human before you can even dream of having a healthy relationship.
00:52:22
Speaker
And I think what this conversation shows, Sarah, is like,
00:52:26
Speaker
When you can have these kind of conversations, they have nothing to do with dating men.
00:52:31
Speaker
Yeah, although I will say being a film critic does not help me on the dating scene.
00:52:37
Speaker
Dudes find out and I don't lead with it.
00:52:40
Speaker
I learned very early on not to because dudes find out and then there can be a weird competitive edge where they have to like prove that they know more about movies than me.
00:52:50
Speaker
And I'm like, I mean, you might.
00:52:51
Speaker
Like there's a lot of movies.
00:52:53
Speaker
I haven't seen every movie in the world.
00:52:56
Speaker
Why does everything have to be a competition?
00:52:58
Speaker
Can't they just like enjoy somebody with a similar passion?
00:53:01
Speaker
You know what I mean?
00:53:02
Speaker
No, can straight men enjoy anything?
00:53:05
Speaker
You're right.
00:53:05
Speaker
I'm saying this as a musician who like, you know, yeah, men always want to see like, can they play better than me?
00:53:10
Speaker
And I'm like, maybe, but it's doubtful, you know, but like, I can't lead with that.
00:53:14
Speaker
You know what I'm saying?
00:53:15
Speaker
It's like, oh, that's wonderful that you've been playing guitar for two years.
00:53:18
Speaker
Like, isn't it so fun?
00:53:19
Speaker
I've just been playing piano for 35, but maybe we're similar.
00:53:23
Speaker
Sure.
00:53:24
Speaker
But, but the whole point is like, if you have a full life of your own, if, and when you do start to make the kind of relationship moves that you want to make,
00:53:33
Speaker
You've got a foundation to build upon.
00:53:35
Speaker
And this is the last thing I want to bring it to, Sarah, was, you know what?
00:53:39
Speaker
I realized earlier I was mistaken.
00:53:41
Speaker
It wasn't, I don't think, the Gene Siskel movie reviews that I was reading.
00:53:44
Speaker
It was the Roger Ebert.
00:53:45
Speaker
He wrote fantastic movie reviews.
00:53:47
Speaker
So let me correct myself there.
00:53:50
Speaker
But one of the reasons why I think I was drawn to your writing, not just because, let me just be clear, your writing style is amazing, okay?
00:53:57
Speaker
As somebody who obsessively reads books,
00:54:00
Speaker
who consumes, you know, like tens of thousands of pages of text every year.
00:54:08
Speaker
You have a phenomenal writing style.
00:54:10
Speaker
It is peerless.
00:54:12
Speaker
I have not seen anything to come close to it.
00:54:15
Speaker
I also read like, is it Dustin from Pajiba?
00:54:18
Speaker
Pajiba, yeah.
00:54:18
Speaker
Pajiba, okay.
00:54:20
Speaker
So that's another one that I read.
00:54:21
Speaker
But like, I just, at this point, I'm like, I know who I like to read.
00:54:24
Speaker
There was, I think, was it Nathan Rubin from the AV Club for a long time?
00:54:30
Speaker
But again, like, you know, as they've kind of oh, and also Heather Haverleski from her salon days.
00:54:37
Speaker
I don't know if you ever read her, but she was priceless.
00:54:40
Speaker
Right.
00:54:41
Speaker
These are the these are the people I've actually read for like media in the last 10, 15 years.
00:54:46
Speaker
But you've like you just you've withstood the test of time and you've only grown.
00:54:51
Speaker
And so when I think about, you know, the fact that I like to read film criticism, I like to read people's reviews and to see, you know, what others think.
00:54:58
Speaker
How has it been being a woman in this very male centric space?
00:55:04
Speaker
Um, generally like my, my day to day is fine.
00:55:08
Speaker
I do have super aggressive filters on my social media accounts.
00:55:13
Speaker
I have, and I'm honestly, since Twitter imploded, I'm way less on social media than I used to be, which is better.
00:55:21
Speaker
Um, and, uh, uh, I have super aggressive filters on my email.
00:55:26
Speaker
So there's a lot of stuff I probably don't see because I learned really early to just start filtering some of that stuff out.
00:55:32
Speaker
Um,
00:55:34
Speaker
And, you know, but I have a lot of very supportive dudes.
00:55:40
Speaker
Like, I have really good support from men in my community that I appreciate a great deal.
00:55:49
Speaker
I really don't catch friction from other critics.
00:55:52
Speaker
Like, it's not within the critical community.
00:55:54
Speaker
I don't think it's really that...
00:55:56
Speaker
bad, I think, especially over the last 10, 15 years that as I, as I came up, like I speaking of like, oh, you sort of benefit from the time that you get to come up in.
00:56:07
Speaker
I came up in a time when people were becoming more conscientious of supporting other voices of supporting women and people of color and women of color in the arts media criticism space.
00:56:20
Speaker
So that has been good.
00:56:21
Speaker
I, the worst is just when you write a review, like,
00:56:25
Speaker
Some emails have broken containment from my recent Mission Impossible review, which was not 100% glowing.
00:56:34
Speaker
And some Tom Cruise fans are taking that personally, which I'm a little bit like, Xenu, is that you?
00:56:42
Speaker
Probably you, the Scientology bots.
00:56:44
Speaker
They've got a whole army, I'm sure.
00:56:46
Speaker
But sometimes it's things like that.
00:56:49
Speaker
Somebody might...
00:56:51
Speaker
some of that stuff comes in, but not a lot of it.
00:56:54
Speaker
Because again, I learned very early, just get really aggressive with your filters on your keywords.
00:57:00
Speaker
And that probably means that there are some nice things that I don't see because maybe somebody uses a word in there, especially like if they're quoting my own, another simple favor review back to me, the word cunt is on my filter list.
00:57:12
Speaker
So maybe I didn't see complimentary emails about that because I just, I'm like, I can't
00:57:18
Speaker
get another email that's just 500 cunts in a row from some dude that I'm never going to see in my life.
00:57:25
Speaker
You know, like I just can't do that.
00:57:27
Speaker
But that helps.
00:57:28
Speaker
I mean, it just kind of protecting your space in that way definitely helps.
00:57:31
Speaker
But in terms of fellow critics, I think the support has generally been really good.
00:57:36
Speaker
People have been very encouraging, have, you know, shared opportunities with me that have been really great.
00:57:42
Speaker
And so it hasn't really, from the critic side, and when he was alive, Roger Ebert was, I'm here in Chicago, so I'm a member of the Chicago Film Critics Association, and I got to go to screenings with him for many years, and he was always very encouraging and very supportive.
00:57:57
Speaker
And things like that have really mattered and made a difference.
00:58:02
Speaker
But that is the benefit of getting to come up in the 2010s was it was the time when people were becoming more aware of the
00:58:10
Speaker
the sort of inherent inequality.
00:58:13
Speaker
And we actually need to make an effort to promote these voices and to share opportunities and to be supportive of new and emerging writers.
00:58:21
Speaker
And I would add a critic to your list, actually, in the spirit of that.
00:58:25
Speaker
I mean, he writes the New York Times.
00:58:26
Speaker
I'm not sure he really needs my shout out, but Robert Daniels is a brilliant critic.
00:58:30
Speaker
If you're looking for really astute,
00:58:33
Speaker
interesting film criticism.
00:58:35
Speaker
Robert Daniels is incredible.
00:58:38
Speaker
He just published a piece on Spike Lee's new movie that premiered at Cannes.
00:58:41
Speaker
It was like, I try not to read a lot of reviews about movies I haven't seen yet, so I don't get any preconceived notions.
00:58:47
Speaker
But when Robert publishes something, I'm like, I can't, I have to read it right away.
00:58:51
Speaker
I can't not know what he has to say about it.
00:58:55
Speaker
So, I mean, he's such a good, interesting writer and critic.
00:59:00
Speaker
Bookmarking it.
00:59:02
Speaker
Yeah, he's great.
00:59:04
Speaker
So yeah, I mean, I don't want to downplay that there are sometimes problems, that there are sometimes unpleasant things, but it almost never comes from a fellow critic.
00:59:15
Speaker
I think one time a YouTuber got mad at me and I was like, I don't even watch your shit.
00:59:20
Speaker
So I don't care.
00:59:24
Speaker
Which is not to downplay YouTube.
00:59:25
Speaker
There are great critics on YouTube.
00:59:27
Speaker
But just one time somebody was like arguing with me and I'm like, I just I just don't care.
00:59:31
Speaker
Like, I don't care that we have a difference of opinion.
00:59:33
Speaker
I don't care about changing your mind.
00:59:35
Speaker
And I don't care to have my mind changed.
00:59:37
Speaker
It's a movie.
00:59:38
Speaker
It doesn't matter.
00:59:41
Speaker
I wondered if, you know, so often we're talking about like, the youth wanting to be influencers and things of that nature.
00:59:49
Speaker
But like, let's say we've got a youth listening who really wants to be a film critic or a popular pop culture and gossip critic.
00:59:57
Speaker
Like, what kind of path does that even look like in this day and age?
01:00:01
Speaker
I truly don't fucking know.
01:00:03
Speaker
Whatever path you want.
01:00:06
Speaker
But I would say if you're going to get into any kind of criticism, and I don't care what it's criticism of or what the media, primary media format is, read.
01:00:15
Speaker
Read everything.
01:00:17
Speaker
Read all the time.
01:00:18
Speaker
Read anything you can get your hands on.
01:00:19
Speaker
Read things you disagree with.
01:00:23
Speaker
You have to read.
01:00:25
Speaker
Um, and then if you are going to be like a film or TV critic, you have to watch, you have to watch a lot.
01:00:30
Speaker
You have to watch things.
01:00:31
Speaker
Even if you're like, oh, that's not exactly appealing to me.
01:00:34
Speaker
I can't tell you how many boring films I've sat through because I'm like, it's going to be good.
01:00:39
Speaker
It's eating broccoli.
01:00:40
Speaker
It's good for me to know this.
01:00:42
Speaker
Like, it's good for me to have this film in, in the bank, you know, like it's good for me to have this somewhere in my brain floating around the next time I need to pull out a reference.
01:00:52
Speaker
Um, so yeah, you have to consume, you have to read a lot, you have to consume a lot and you have to think, you have to learn how to think.
01:01:02
Speaker
And I don't know how you do that, except I went to college and spent four years learning how to think.
01:01:08
Speaker
Um, and that's, you know,
01:01:11
Speaker
That's kind of the challenge now is how do you learn how to think?
01:01:14
Speaker
And I think, but I think a good place to start is read a lot, read everything you can get your hands on, even if it's not something that's immediately appealing, even if it's something you might disagree with, read it anyway, and then think hard about why you disagree with it.
01:01:31
Speaker
And, you know, and just consider, kind of consider everything.
01:01:36
Speaker
Oh, this makes me so happy to hear.
01:01:38
Speaker
One thing we talked about was Sarah lives just down the street from a newly opened bookshop.
01:01:44
Speaker
And she was saying how dangerous it is, how quickly it adds up and how much money you don't realize you are spending.
01:01:50
Speaker
So for those of you who love to read, please, yes, support your local bookstores, but also always remember your local libraries.
01:01:58
Speaker
Okay.
01:01:59
Speaker
Here in Chicago, we have an amazing library system.
01:02:01
Speaker
And you'll note that like ever since COVID, a lot of these places, I know New York, I think LA as well, they're now willing to give you like an electronic membership so that you can access all of their books online.
01:02:14
Speaker
Even if you don't live in that city, they've widened the scope to allow others to access those materials as well.
01:02:20
Speaker
So like don't give up hope if you don't live in one of these major cities, but use any and everything you can to get your hands on
01:02:28
Speaker
reading materials, nothing can replace that time spent.
01:02:31
Speaker
I like that you call it eating broccoli.
01:02:34
Speaker
Sometimes you just got to eat your vegetables and drink your water, you know?
01:02:39
Speaker
And don't be afraid to ask why and to acknowledge when you just don't know.
01:02:44
Speaker
I think that's another really big thing.
01:02:46
Speaker
Like, as I've gotten older, yes, I'm extremely well read.
01:02:49
Speaker
I'm well traveled.
01:02:49
Speaker
I speak multiple languages.
01:02:51
Speaker
I've lived in places all over the world.
01:02:53
Speaker
But of course, I don't know everything.
01:02:54
Speaker
I wouldn't want to know everything.
01:02:55
Speaker
But what's left to discover and enjoy in the world if I know everything?
01:02:58
Speaker
But I think having that sort of attitude of like, I'm always here to learn.
01:03:02
Speaker
I'm always going to be curious to learn more.
01:03:04
Speaker
I think that's another area where if you're a youngster, don't be afraid to be really genuine and earnest in your quest and in your curiosity.
01:03:13
Speaker
Yeah, we live in a society that does not prize sincerity.
01:03:18
Speaker
But if you're trying to get into the space of criticism, again, for anything, not just movies, but you will have to eventually expose yourself to be sincere.
01:03:31
Speaker
You will eventually have to be sincere about something that you're writing or talking about.
01:03:36
Speaker
But I will make a couple book recs for people who are big time readers, but interested in gossip or film.
01:03:42
Speaker
Please.
01:03:44
Speaker
The Kid Stays in the Picture, Robert Evans, autobiography.
01:03:47
Speaker
It's wildly entertaining.
01:03:48
Speaker
He lived a big life.
01:03:51
Speaker
A Short History of Celebrity.
01:03:54
Speaker
by Fred Inglis.
01:03:56
Speaker
It's a really great book that literally sort of traces how a modern celebrity came to be.
01:04:02
Speaker
And The Castle on Sunset, which came out in 2020, I cannot think of the author's name off the top of my head, but it is a history of the Chateau Marmont in Los Angeles, the famous...
01:04:14
Speaker
a celebrity driven hotel.
01:04:17
Speaker
And that is an interesting cross section of architectural history, the history of Los Angeles, celebrity history, gossip history, film history.
01:04:27
Speaker
It's the Chateau Marmont is just the nexus of so many cultural forces.
01:04:31
Speaker
And so the Castle on Sunset is a great read, too.
01:04:34
Speaker
Oh, I think I'm going to have to put that into my local library because that sounds fascinating.
01:04:37
Speaker
I mean, how many times have we read Chateau Marmont when when you're reading Lady Gossip?
01:04:42
Speaker
Like that thing pops up all the time.
01:04:44
Speaker
Oh, yeah.
01:04:45
Speaker
It's it's still a big celebrity hangout because they don't allow photos.
01:04:48
Speaker
So celebrities can go, although it's that's the interesting thing about the book, because it was published in 2020.
01:04:54
Speaker
And the more recent iteration of the Chateau is a lot flatter than it used to be.
01:04:59
Speaker
When I was at USC in the early 2000s, I got to go a few times.
01:05:04
Speaker
I got invited to events that were there and it still had a feeling of decadence and anything can happen.
01:05:12
Speaker
And you might see, you know, big, huge celebrities doing wild shit in the bathroom.
01:05:19
Speaker
It really sort of felt like kind of a...
01:05:21
Speaker
a bacchanalia sort of place.
01:05:23
Speaker
Like it still had a little seediness to it.
01:05:25
Speaker
That is all gone.
01:05:27
Speaker
I was there in 2019, just before the pandemic, and I was actually depressed.
01:05:33
Speaker
at how flat the Chateau seemed.
01:05:37
Speaker
I was just like, oh, it's been corporatized.
01:05:40
Speaker
Well, they say the Chateau's did it.
01:05:42
Speaker
No.
01:05:43
Speaker
Yeah, and there is a generation of like Gen X celebrity that still hangs out there.
01:05:47
Speaker
Like Keanu Reeves is a regular.
01:05:50
Speaker
But they all kind of admit that it's like nostalgia, that it's like, oh no, I still have a lot of fondness for the place because I don't think the younger stars are driven there as much as they used to be.
01:06:01
Speaker
Especially because now there's more private clubs on the west side of LA and stuff.
01:06:04
Speaker
So there's other no photo places they can go.
01:06:06
Speaker
But yeah, The Castle on Sunset is a great book.
01:06:10
Speaker
Sarah, if anything else occurs to you after the after we hang up here, I'm always happy to receive any other recommendations that occur to you, even if it's websites or things like that.
01:06:18
Speaker
But I love that you had three books off of the top of your head to give us.
01:06:21
Speaker
I have been wanting to read The Kid Stays in the Picture for a long time because I think I remember either when you or Laney wrote about it when it came out.
01:06:28
Speaker
Right.
01:06:28
Speaker
Because he was he was a major media mogul back in the day.
01:06:32
Speaker
He ran Paramount in the 70s.
01:06:35
Speaker
He was a producer.
01:06:36
Speaker
He tried to be an actor, got into producing.
01:06:38
Speaker
And then he ran Paramount in the 70s when they went on their incredible, arguably peerless run when they had like he was greenlighting The Godfather, Chinatown.
01:06:49
Speaker
Like it was just an insane revitalization.
01:06:53
Speaker
In the 70s.
01:06:54
Speaker
And then he was involved in a murder trial and a cocaine bust and things in the 80s went a little haywire.
01:07:00
Speaker
Real Hollywood people.
01:07:02
Speaker
He really lived a life.
01:07:03
Speaker
But, you know, in terms of people getting into things and speaking to maybe a younger audience, when I myself was a young person, I got to meet Robert Evans.
01:07:14
Speaker
And he was just, I think, maybe one of the great American eccentrics.
01:07:20
Speaker
We're not a country that produces a lot of eccentrics.
01:07:25
Speaker
And it's because we're all so fucking weird.
01:07:28
Speaker
Yeah.
01:07:30
Speaker
It wasn't until I really started traveling that I was like, oh, we don't have a lot of like famous eccentrics because we are all deeply weird people.
01:07:42
Speaker
We're a nation of eccentrics.
01:07:44
Speaker
America encourages that kind of individualism.
01:07:48
Speaker
So we don't notice it unless it's like super amplified.
01:07:51
Speaker
And in Robert Evans, it was super amplified.
01:07:55
Speaker
But I got to meet him and I was working for someone and I got to go to his house and
01:07:59
Speaker
He'd had a stroke a few years before and, you know, was maybe no longer exactly what he was before, but he had rebounded quite well, I think.
01:08:10
Speaker
We went to his house, which I'm very afraid he had this incredible Hollywood Regency estate and David Zaslav is renovating it.
01:08:17
Speaker
And I'm like, oh, what David Zaslav who hates movies?
01:08:21
Speaker
Yeah.
01:08:22
Speaker
A man with famously no taste.
01:08:24
Speaker
Yeah.
01:08:27
Speaker
By the way, quick aside, I love your hatred and disdain for David Zaslav.
01:08:32
Speaker
Like, every coin you write about him, I just... I just want to point out, the Knicks have not won an Eastern Conference final game that he has been in attendance to.
01:08:41
Speaker
So the Madison Square Garden security guards should keep him out, and maybe you can salvage your run, because David Zaslav is going to fucking tank it for the Knicks.
01:08:53
Speaker
to black hole he's even tanking it for basketball teams i truly but he is renovating robert evans estate and i'm like oh i'm not worried about that at all but yeah he was a very uh he walked with a cane like a very dapper he was in a dressing gown and an ascot and sunglasses inside and he had beautiful silver hair and did not he did not look at me once he had zero interest in me i was a piece of furniture um
01:09:22
Speaker
But just before we were leaving, my boss at the time was like, oh, this is Sarah.
01:09:28
Speaker
She's just getting started.
01:09:29
Speaker
And, you know, all the new things are happening to her.
01:09:34
Speaker
And he looked at me and even through the sunglasses, you could feel the weight of that consideration.
01:09:40
Speaker
And he said, always bet on yourself, kid.
01:09:42
Speaker
And that is truly the best advice I've ever gotten.
01:09:46
Speaker
I mean, deciding to start my own movie blog, taking a shot to write for Laney, you know, any opportunity I've gotten, I've always leapt at because it's like, just bet on myself, just bet that I can do it.
01:10:01
Speaker
Sarah, that's a power.
01:10:02
Speaker
I love that.
01:10:02
Speaker
That's your anecdote.
01:10:03
Speaker
That's an amazing anecdote.
01:10:05
Speaker
And I think we can close with that because you know what, if there's one lesson in life that all of us really do need to learn, it's that we should be betting on ourselves.
01:10:13
Speaker
And with that, Sarah, thank you so much for your time.
01:10:17
Speaker
I cannot stress enough how excited I was to have you on the show.
01:10:20
Speaker
And in fact, you know what, maybe we're going to have to have you on the show again, because this is a, this is a never ending journey with media and, and
01:10:27
Speaker
media literacy which is something we really preach on about at this at the show um but i just want to thank you again and i want to close by saying to all those people who ever wrote the word cunt to sarah in a non-competitive way to die fucking mad who gives a shit about that person die mad and we'll see you next week