Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Gaslight, Deflect, Repeat: The Logical Fallacies Used to Derail Women’s Standards
45 Plays7 months ago
Originally a bonus episode for our Patreon Queens, this deep dive is now unlocked for the public! In this episode, the Bonus Queens break down the most common logical fallacies men and society at large use to dismiss women’s boundaries, dodge accountability, and manipulate the dating narrative in their favour.
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/
Download the FDS Handbook for free here: https://pdfcoffee.com/fds-handbook-v135-pdf-free.html
Paypal: https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/femdatstrat
Follow us!
Weekly Bonus Content on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/TheFemaleDatingStrategy
Website: https://www.thefemaledatingstrategy.com
Twitter: https://twitter.com/femdatstrat
@femdatstrat
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/_thefemaledatingstrategy/
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Logical Fallacies and Dating
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to the bonus content, queens.
00:00:03
Speaker
Welcome.
00:00:04
Speaker
Welcome back.
00:00:05
Speaker
Welcome back.
00:00:06
Speaker
Welcome back.
00:00:07
Speaker
So today we have a more philosophical episode.
00:00:12
Speaker
And this will be broken down into two parts because I am personally really interested in philosophy.
Deceptive Fallacies in Dating
00:00:18
Speaker
It is a, yeah, it's a pastime of mine.
00:00:20
Speaker
Just seeing how, you know, words and meanings and semantics and arguments are constructed.
00:00:26
Speaker
And I have always been a fan of the logical fallacies.
00:00:30
Speaker
And I wanted to do a couple of episodes on how the logical fallacies are basically used to trick women into settling for less in dating because they are used an awful, awful lot.
00:00:43
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's a really cool subject.
00:00:45
Speaker
I'm really glad you're bringing this up.
00:00:47
Speaker
Also, I think philosophy is usually perceived as a male field.
00:00:51
Speaker
I think it's extra cool, giving
Philosophical Perspectives on Women
00:00:53
Speaker
it a twist.
00:00:53
Speaker
Yes, especially when a lot of the male philosophers, they have like really, really dodgy and problematic views about women.
00:01:00
Speaker
So Jean-Jacques Rousseau basically said that women should be in the kitchen and that's it.
00:01:05
Speaker
It was anti-women's education.
00:01:07
Speaker
How was he the one who said that?
00:01:10
Speaker
Yeah, it was him.
00:01:10
Speaker
Yeah, he wrote like, was it a whole book or something?
00:01:14
Speaker
But he wrote extensively about how women should basically just stay in the kitchen and shouldn't be in education.
00:01:19
Speaker
A lot of the famous philosophers have very problematic lives.
00:01:22
Speaker
And it's intertwined, like their personal lives and their philosophy.
00:01:25
Speaker
But a lot of the times, it is taught separately, like in a clean container.
00:01:30
Speaker
Yeah.
00:01:31
Speaker
Indeed.
Fallacies in Dating Arguments
00:01:32
Speaker
Indeed.
00:01:32
Speaker
So the purpose of this episode is to essentially see how the logical fallacies are constantly used against women, because essentially what a logical fallacy is, it's an argument that is based on very, very faulty reasoning.
00:01:47
Speaker
And as we go through the examples, you'll see what I mean in that a logical fallacy is used in place of actually arguing against the point that is being made.
00:01:58
Speaker
And that can happen for a number of reasons.
00:01:59
Speaker
So it could be that
00:02:01
Speaker
The person trying to argue against your point, they may not be able to articulate themselves very well.
00:02:06
Speaker
It could be intellectual laziness and it can just be manipulation, especially when it comes to women in dating.
00:02:12
Speaker
I think that's the most common one is people tend to resort to these logical fallacies out of manipulation and a way to silence women.
00:02:20
Speaker
Yeah, thinking a lot of things, just looking at some of the things that you presented as fallacies.
00:02:24
Speaker
I mean, a lot of the time these fallacies, their tool to captivating the consciousness is that it's plucking on the strings of fear, the fear of being alone, for instance.
00:02:35
Speaker
And then because it has an effective way of triggering that fear, then indeed you can look away from how it doesn't hold water, if that makes sense.
00:02:46
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:02:47
Speaker
And I think that once you're aware of the logical fallacies, you'll see them everywhere.
00:02:51
Speaker
It's not just in dating, but politicians use them a lot as well.
00:02:55
Speaker
And you just see them in every day-to-day discourse.
00:02:57
Speaker
And one of my favorite pastimes is calling out when people have used a logical fallacy because people don't know what it is.
00:03:03
Speaker
But when I explain what it is, they sort of think like, oh, okay, yeah.
00:03:07
Speaker
So my argument wasn't as sound as I thought because it doesn't address the points of the argument made.
00:03:12
Speaker
It's talking about something else entirely.
00:03:15
Speaker
I'm not going to lie, that sounds like a lot of fun to be able to do that and to prove somebody wrong with, like, sound logic.
00:03:23
Speaker
And especially when men love to say that they're the logical gender, but a lot of their arguments, as we'll go through when it comes to women and dating, they commit a lot of the logical fallacies here.
00:03:33
Speaker
A lot.
00:03:34
Speaker
So it's like, really?
00:03:36
Speaker
Really?
The False Dilemma in Relationships
00:03:38
Speaker
Okay, let's get into it.
00:03:39
Speaker
So the first one is called the false dilemma.
00:03:43
Speaker
And so it's black and white thinking.
00:03:45
Speaker
So what this logical fallacy essentially is, is that it presents two options as being the only option.
00:03:53
Speaker
And this applies to dating in the context of, you know, let's say a woman says that she wants to date a man she's attracted to who earns good money.
00:04:02
Speaker
It will often be positioned as, oh, well, if you date an attractive guy, he's going to cheat on you.
00:04:06
Speaker
You know, you should basically lower your standards and set up a somebody you don't find as attractive or somebody who doesn't make as much money.
00:04:12
Speaker
it presents two options as being the only options when actually, you know, there are often a lot more options.
Stereotypes and Attractiveness
00:04:19
Speaker
So it is possible to find a guy you're attracted to who earns a lot of money and who treats you well, for example.
00:04:26
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:04:27
Speaker
It sounds like it's based on scarcity mindset, this kind of argument.
00:04:32
Speaker
It can allow for a reality where all these things exist.
00:04:35
Speaker
Yeah.
00:04:35
Speaker
Yeah, sort of.
00:04:36
Speaker
Yeah.
00:04:38
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:04:40
Speaker
And I've always said this, like, you know how, like, incels say, like, Chad, if a guy's attractive, he's a Chad, he's almost definitely going to cheat on you.
00:04:48
Speaker
And it's like, in my experience, the most, the least conventionally attractive men I've been around have often treated me the worst.
00:04:56
Speaker
I can't say I've been treated awfully by a man who was conventionally attractive.
00:05:00
Speaker
And again, it's just that sort of false dichotomy, then basically saying, well, if you want an attractive guy, he's going to cheat on you because he's got options.
00:05:07
Speaker
But also it ignores the fact that less conventionally attractive men, broke men, unemployed men, they also cheat and treat women badly as well.
00:05:15
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:05:16
Speaker
I mean, if incels are saying that, or men who are down on their luck with women, they're saying that to make themselves the more attractive option.
00:05:23
Speaker
Yes, 100%.
00:05:25
Speaker
They're basically saying, I will give you emotional security, whereas somebody who's more attractive than me will not.
00:05:30
Speaker
I mean, attractive people have their own problems.
00:05:32
Speaker
Some may be emotionally stunted.
00:05:34
Speaker
Of course, of course.
00:05:36
Speaker
I don't think it's like a direct correlation.
00:05:38
Speaker
Although sometimes I call it the, I don't know, the Tel Avivian hot guy syndrome.
00:05:46
Speaker
Are there hot guys in Tel Aviv?
00:05:48
Speaker
Tell us more.
00:05:48
Speaker
Tell us more.
00:05:49
Speaker
Of course there are.
00:05:50
Speaker
But that's like, you know, it can be any major city, but basically it's a syndrome.
00:05:54
Speaker
I coined it.
00:05:54
Speaker
So, yeah.
00:05:55
Speaker
All the...
00:05:57
Speaker
Explain what the syndrome is.
00:05:58
Speaker
Explain what the syndrome is.
00:05:59
Speaker
Okay, so it goes like this.
00:06:01
Speaker
Basically, guys who are super hot somehow sometimes have like a block with life in the sense of everything is going too easy for them.
00:06:11
Speaker
Like it's really easy for them to get girls.
00:06:13
Speaker
Girls will come up to them, engage with them.
00:06:15
Speaker
They can treat them quite poorly and still get away with it.
00:06:19
Speaker
And then it kind of breaks their brain.
00:06:21
Speaker
I mean, they, like everybody else, but men, I think more, need to...
00:06:25
Speaker
exert effort to get what they need.
00:06:27
Speaker
And then when that equation breaks, that equation that every human experiences that like, oh, I need to exert effort to get things that I want, that equation breaks.
00:06:35
Speaker
And then these guys are kind of like untethered in life, walking around, like floating around through life, not knowing what they want, exclamation point.
00:06:43
Speaker
They never know what they want.
00:06:44
Speaker
And it's also unsatisfying for them.
00:06:47
Speaker
They actually do want somebody who is going to make them work hard.
00:06:51
Speaker
And a lot of the times that's the person they're going to end up with.
00:06:53
Speaker
This is not to say like, if a person is treating you like that, then like if you meet a guy who's suffering from the Tel Avivian hot guy syndrome, it doesn't mean that you need to play hard to get him.
00:07:04
Speaker
Like it's not going to help if he's not into you.
00:07:07
Speaker
But yeah, it was just like a little tiny bit of a story.
00:07:11
Speaker
I met with new friends last weekend.
00:07:14
Speaker
And like, there was a really, really beautiful couple.
00:07:17
Speaker
Like the girl looks like she's an angel sent from goth heaven.
00:07:20
Speaker
And the guy's also like a really attractive kind of like a Labrador energy.
00:07:25
Speaker
Yeah.
00:07:26
Speaker
like blonde hair very very cute very funny and yeah I just had a conversation with him asking how they met and he said they met through a dating app and they were talking for a while and after like two weeks of you know intense texting and very long messages she was waiting for him to ask her out for a while and finally finally he was like oh well if we meet you know and she was like I thought you'd never ask so this guy was telling me about how
00:07:52
Speaker
quote unquote, because he's Dutch, also kind of a fallacy that I disproved while we were talking, because he's Dutch, he's used to girls coming up to him, asking him out, making the moves.
00:08:04
Speaker
He never had to ask.
00:08:06
Speaker
And then I talked to him a little bit more about that.
00:08:09
Speaker
And it turns out through questions, it's not because he's Dutch.
00:08:13
Speaker
It's because he knows he's attractive.
00:08:15
Speaker
So he never had to ask.
00:08:17
Speaker
do that.
00:08:18
Speaker
So at first he was saying, well, you know, because I'm Dutch, we don't want to impose.
00:08:22
Speaker
I don't have, never want to make anybody feel uncomfortable.
00:08:25
Speaker
So if we're talking,
00:08:27
Speaker
I wouldn't want to ask her out because then, you know, maybe that's casting a shadow on the interaction and she will feel uncomfortable.
00:08:35
Speaker
But then, you know, upon further inquisition, this person that he's talking to came up to him at a bar.
00:08:42
Speaker
So, you know, it's pretty obvious that she's interested.
Cross-Cultural Dating Norms
00:08:44
Speaker
But he had the privilege of being lazy.
00:08:48
Speaker
He doesn't need to ask girls out because he knows that he's good looking and he knows that they will ask him out.
00:08:55
Speaker
But you know what?
00:08:56
Speaker
His current wife,
00:08:57
Speaker
She wasn't playing that because she was sitting on her pedestal and she knows that she's, you know, not waiting, but she will not initiate the first date.
00:09:07
Speaker
She will let the man work hard for it.
00:09:08
Speaker
And you know what?
00:09:10
Speaker
She's the one he's married to.
00:09:12
Speaker
That's such an interesting theory.
00:09:13
Speaker
Thank you so much for sharing that, Patricia.
00:09:14
Speaker
And I think it goes back to sort of saying, ultimately as well, this is an aside, but, you know, when you see an attractive guy or a wealthy guy, just treat them like...
00:09:24
Speaker
a guy like don't put them on a pedestal just because they're more commercially attractive or you know they've got more money because that will actually make you stand out because a lot of women either subconsciously or consciously they put on almost like a show when they're in the presence of an attractive man or a wealthy man and they're all used to that I'm not saying you should be standoffish but if you treat them just like another man you know that will make you stand out
00:09:49
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:09:50
Speaker
And I would say even further, it has to do with your standards.
00:09:53
Speaker
Standards are not custom made per person.
00:09:55
Speaker
Standards are your standards.
00:09:58
Speaker
Well said.
00:09:59
Speaker
If you know that you don't ask a guy on the first date, I mean, you can if you choose to.
00:10:04
Speaker
I, for my FDS values, believe that since men find it easier to acquiesce, they find it easier to go with the flow than women do.
00:10:12
Speaker
I would wait for a guy to show that he's interested.
00:10:15
Speaker
And also for him to show effort.
00:10:17
Speaker
Exactly.
00:10:18
Speaker
Exactly.
00:10:18
Speaker
Because most guys, because most guys, it's actually shocking.
00:10:21
Speaker
Like when I speak to my old acquaintances, like most guys will, especially if it's like sex, like casual sex, they will say yes to anything, even if they don't find the woman attractive, which is just wild to me.
00:10:32
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:10:33
Speaker
I had a roommate that told me about a girl that he was dating that he was unattracted to.
00:10:38
Speaker
Unattracted to because, well, he's a big leftist, but she had body hair and he had an issue with that.
00:10:44
Speaker
Valid.
00:10:45
Speaker
He was not attracted to her, but he still dated her for a while because like the novelty kind of overpowered the ick.
00:10:52
Speaker
True story.
00:10:53
Speaker
But what's wrong with having body hair on a woman?
00:10:55
Speaker
I mean, was he hair free?
00:10:57
Speaker
It's not wrong.
00:10:58
Speaker
I don't judge him for it.
00:10:59
Speaker
It's a preference.
00:11:00
Speaker
But within that preference, just to say he was not attracted.
00:11:04
Speaker
But still, he could, you know, hit that.
00:11:07
Speaker
Sorry for the language.
00:11:09
Speaker
Because for a time, the novelty overpowered the ick.
00:11:12
Speaker
It is true.
00:11:13
Speaker
Men's like a lower threshold of discuss is true.
00:11:17
Speaker
And just to wrap it all up, your standards, if for instance, that is your standard, which we have FDS support that you ask, like you expect the guy to initiate the first date.
00:11:26
Speaker
And if he doesn't, there's just not going to be a first date.
00:11:29
Speaker
That standard doesn't change, you know, depending on who you're talking to.
00:11:33
Speaker
That is your standard.
00:11:34
Speaker
That's
Challenging High Standards
00:11:35
Speaker
it.
00:11:35
Speaker
very very well said oh so yeah to wrap up this particular logical fallacy the trap is it makes men believe that they have to lower their standards because if you go for the guy that you actually want then you're going to suffer because he's going to treat you badly say no to that that's not true that is absolutely not true yeah like that your standards are kind of like a fantasy or something like that they're not valid healthy standards
00:12:01
Speaker
It's almost like, do you know when, you know, somebody asks on the internet or Reddit, like, you know, how can people afford all these brand new cars and these holidays?
00:12:09
Speaker
And everybody instantly say, oh, they're in debt.
00:12:12
Speaker
They must be in debt.
00:12:13
Speaker
And it's like, that's not the only option.
00:12:15
Speaker
Some people just have more money.
00:12:17
Speaker
The phrase keeping up with the Joneses exists because some people are the Joneses.
00:12:22
Speaker
People just have more money than you.
00:12:24
Speaker
Of course, some people finance these things through debt, but there are a lot of people who never go on holiday who drive a 30-year-old car who are also up to their neck in debt.
00:12:33
Speaker
Do you see what I mean?
00:12:34
Speaker
People do it all the time.
00:12:35
Speaker
And honestly, it's just cope, some of it.
00:12:38
Speaker
It's just cope.
00:12:39
Speaker
Yeah, I guess like in the example that you're giving, the person asking is like, why do I see every regular bloke going on vacation and I am not?
00:12:47
Speaker
And of course, some people are genuinely up to their neck in debt and are living irresponsibly.
00:12:52
Speaker
But also some people just have more money than you all.
00:12:54
Speaker
They they spend their money in different ways.
00:12:56
Speaker
They don't have kids, so they have the money to finance new cars and go on holiday, you know, like every three months.
00:13:03
Speaker
Yeah, I think this fallacy can also, I mean, of course, when we're talking about society trying to impose lower standards on women, we're talking both about men and women trying to impose those standards.
00:13:13
Speaker
And I think this is like a very usual example that we're giving about the woman who has compromised.
00:13:21
Speaker
she will also try to impose on you lower standards.
00:13:24
Speaker
So I think that's also where this false dichotomy can come into play because this person, let's say, I'm just drawing a picture for the vividness, right?
00:13:32
Speaker
Let's say a person has settled and settled down with a person that she's not actually that into, but he is stable.
00:13:40
Speaker
So when you talk to her and you tell her, well, you know, I'm dating, but nobody's really interesting.
00:13:44
Speaker
I don't feel like people are like, let's say, intellectually stimulating for me.
00:13:49
Speaker
She could say, well, you know, it's either or.
00:13:52
Speaker
You can either be with somebody who is stable, wants to settle down and have a family and will be there for you.
00:13:59
Speaker
Or you can be with somebody who is stimulating for you, but he's not going to be safe.
00:14:04
Speaker
Because that might showcase her experiences.
00:14:08
Speaker
Like the way that we perceive the world and what we say and think is so reliant on the information that we experienced.
00:14:15
Speaker
Like we're so limited in our ability to imagine or think of something that is foreign to us, really.
00:14:21
Speaker
So yeah, I think that's important to think about.
00:14:25
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:14:25
Speaker
And I think it ties in nicely with the, I think we've spoken about this before, Patricia, but when we say that some women, they see other women's high standards as a judgment on their own choices because they know they've settled and they will try to then get other women to lower their standards.
00:14:42
Speaker
And it's quite apparent because you don't see men policing down other men's standards in the same way.
00:14:48
Speaker
For example, if a man says, you know, I want to date a supermodel,
00:14:52
Speaker
A man might say, well, you know, get yourself to the gym and earn more money, but they'll never say, oh, well, you should essentially sell for a woman that you don't find as attractive because that's all you can get.
00:15:01
Speaker
Do you see what I mean?
00:15:03
Speaker
He's not going to tell them the truth, like, dude, look in the mirror.
00:15:05
Speaker
Well, no, they won't.
00:15:07
Speaker
And also, you know, they might say you might need to change this about yourself, but they'll never basically tell them that you can't get what you want.
00:15:13
Speaker
Yeah, men are quite good about being delusional.
00:15:16
Speaker
We should be more delusional too.
00:15:17
Speaker
We should be more delusional, 100%.
00:15:20
Speaker
Intentionally delusional.
00:15:22
Speaker
Intentional delusion.
00:15:23
Speaker
Delulu is a salulu, as Diana rightfully says sometimes.
00:15:26
Speaker
And it's better than settling.
00:15:27
Speaker
So there's that.
The Straw Man in Dating
00:15:29
Speaker
So the next one is the straw man fallacy.
00:15:32
Speaker
So the most poignant example I can give of this is the straw man fallacy is basically when you misrepresent an argument to make it easier to attack.
00:15:43
Speaker
So you change the content of the person's argument and what they're saying into something that makes sense to you so you can attack it.
00:15:50
Speaker
So basically what they're trying to do is they're trying to argue against the point that you never made.
00:15:55
Speaker
And I always call people out for this.
00:15:56
Speaker
I would always say like, you're actually arguing against the point that I never made.
00:16:00
Speaker
A classic example of this in dating is when men believe that, you know, we're all women want the six, six, six standard.
00:16:06
Speaker
So, you know, six inches, six figures, six,
00:16:09
Speaker
and over six feet in height.
00:16:11
Speaker
And I always say, if you just step outside into the wild, right, just observe for even five minutes the couples that you see, how many men meet those standards?
00:16:21
Speaker
That sounds like insult math.
00:16:23
Speaker
I feel like we're going into insult math.
00:16:27
Speaker
Did you know this?
00:16:28
Speaker
Well, actually, they actually made a female delusion calculator.
00:16:32
Speaker
So basically they have a calculator where you basically, women can put in their preferences for men.
00:16:37
Speaker
So like their height, their salary they earn, and they will come back with a statistic in quotation marks about how delusional the woman is.
00:16:46
Speaker
And to think in so that she went to all that trouble to make...
00:16:50
Speaker
To make such a, it's just, yeah.
00:16:52
Speaker
Anyway.
00:16:52
Speaker
What else is he going to do?
00:16:54
Speaker
He has a lot of free time on his hands.
00:16:57
Speaker
I'm realizing more and more that I need to put emphasis on the things that I actually care about.
00:17:03
Speaker
Like when I envision the relationship that I want to be in and that I'm going to be in, what are the actual values that come into play there?
00:17:10
Speaker
And then focusing on that while I'm going about dating.
00:17:15
Speaker
like holding that energy with me.
00:17:16
Speaker
So what I'm focusing on is, is the person trustworthy?
00:17:20
Speaker
Is he the kind of person that I can see myself having a lot of conversations with?
00:17:23
Speaker
Because basically that's somebody, if you're in a relationship, you're spending loads of time with that person.
00:17:28
Speaker
You're just having a lot of conversations with them.
00:17:30
Speaker
And do I feel safe with them?
00:17:33
Speaker
Does he take care of me?
00:17:34
Speaker
Does he, is he a good communicator?
00:17:36
Speaker
And yes, do I like look at his face and do I feel like kissing him?
00:17:39
Speaker
And can I see myself sleeping with him?
00:17:41
Speaker
But really a six pack, I don't think is that important.
00:17:44
Speaker
And I think,
00:17:45
Speaker
yeah, this kind of society where we focus too much on the superficial is also not healthy, but it is important and it is totally valid.
00:17:54
Speaker
And it is, you know, we have to be attracted to the person that we with.
00:17:58
Speaker
It can't be another way.
00:17:59
Speaker
We deserve that.
00:18:00
Speaker
Just like a caveat about the 666.
00:18:03
Speaker
Yeah, agreed.
00:18:03
Speaker
Agreed.
00:18:04
Speaker
And I will never say a woman shouldn't have that standard if she wants to.
00:18:07
Speaker
But it's clear that not every woman that has that standard or wants a perfect man in quotation marks.
00:18:12
Speaker
A lot of women just want a man who treats them well, and they find physically attractive.
00:18:17
Speaker
Bearing in mind, finding a man physically attractive doesn't mean that he's conventionally attractive.
00:18:21
Speaker
They're not always the same thing.
00:18:23
Speaker
For example, like, for me, you know, Chris Hemsworth and The Rock are conventionally attractive men.
00:18:28
Speaker
I personally don't find them attractive.
00:18:30
Speaker
But that doesn't mean that they're not attractive, if that
00:18:33
Speaker
make sense yeah it's not my thing the rock also i mean i do want the perfect man i want the man who's perfect for me yeah well said that's so sweet so that's a straw man fallacy so yeah so yeah don't get sucked into that either because it's quite a blatant misrepresentation of what women are actually saying a lot of women aren't saying that they want to date you know male models and you know billionaires i mean they're not actually saying that at all
00:18:58
Speaker
Yeah, I guess like to tie it all together, and I now understand we didn't really address that directly in the former logical fallacy.
00:19:06
Speaker
Basically, as you said at the top of this one, if somebody does address you with this kind of fallacy, what you can do is directly address the fact that he's exaggerating or they are exaggerating what you actually said, right?
00:19:20
Speaker
Don't get sucked into, well, why can't I have a man who's da-da-da-da-da, but say...
00:19:26
Speaker
Or like the way to solve this fallacy is to say, I actually didn't say those things.
00:19:31
Speaker
This is an exaggeration of some things and an omittance of other things that I said.
00:19:36
Speaker
So this is not, I don't know, a good faith argument kind of, right?
00:19:40
Speaker
Exactly.
00:19:40
Speaker
Yeah.
00:19:41
Speaker
And also if I try to tie that with the former one, you also said that if somebody is presenting two seemingly mutually exclusive options,
00:19:53
Speaker
The way to tackle that is to say, well, actually, it's not only two options.
00:19:57
Speaker
There are more options.
00:19:59
Speaker
There is like a variety of options that exist there and not only these two mutually exclusive ones, right?
00:20:04
Speaker
Exactly.
00:20:05
Speaker
It's sort of like they're all sort of interconnected, really, as well.
00:20:09
Speaker
Once you see one, you can't stop seeing them all.
00:20:10
Speaker
Yeah, it's a really cool way to address, I think, discussions, to look at the things that are unstated, how they make you tick.
00:20:18
Speaker
And then instead of ticking, addressing the gaps.
00:20:22
Speaker
That's really cool.
00:20:23
Speaker
I like that a lot.
Character Attacks in Dating
00:20:24
Speaker
Okay, on to the next one.
00:20:25
Speaker
So the most common one is ad hominem.
00:20:28
Speaker
So when you attack the person instead of their argument, this is common in the dating world because, you know, women who say that, you know, women should have standards are often dismissed as bitter, single, fat, ugly, old, or whatever.
00:20:43
Speaker
And the simple response to this is that it doesn't actually insulting the person.
00:20:49
Speaker
It doesn't actually A, address their argument and B, it doesn't change the truth of their argument as well.
00:20:55
Speaker
And we see this a lot sometimes when people who are single or, you know, they're told, oh, you know, for example, what would they know about being in a relationship?
00:21:04
Speaker
Right.
00:21:05
Speaker
But it's like, well, I mean, to some degree, I'd say that that might like hold some water.
00:21:10
Speaker
But at the same time, it's like there are plenty of people in committed relationships who give awful advice as well.
00:21:17
Speaker
If that's some of the worst relationship advice I've been given has come from people in relationships.
00:21:22
Speaker
That's quite funny.
00:21:23
Speaker
True and funny.
00:21:24
Speaker
So it's quite a straightforward one, this one.
00:21:27
Speaker
So if they are attacking you as a person or your relationship status, it just goes to show that they don't have an argument against what you're saying.
00:21:35
Speaker
And again, you can just fall back to, you know, my demographic or how I look, my relationship status, it doesn't change the truth of what I've said because it doesn't.
00:21:43
Speaker
Interesting.
00:21:44
Speaker
Can you say more about that?
00:21:45
Speaker
I don't feel convinced yet.
00:21:48
Speaker
In what way?
00:21:49
Speaker
I don't know.
00:21:49
Speaker
My mind goes to a friend that I have that is now in a committed relationship, but I don't know, a few years ago she wasn't.
00:21:55
Speaker
And then when I was asking for relationship advice, I was always leaning towards getting the advice from our third friend who was in a relationship.
00:22:05
Speaker
But my friend who wasn't in our relationship back then is now in a healthy, committed relationship.
00:22:11
Speaker
So
00:22:12
Speaker
Does that make sense?
00:22:13
Speaker
Like she wasn't in a relationship at the time, but that doesn't mean that she couldn't be.
00:22:18
Speaker
Yeah, I think this argument goes back to focusing on what the person is actually saying as opposed to them.
00:22:25
Speaker
And it sort of ties into the genetic fallacy where you dismiss what somebody's saying based on where they're coming from.
00:22:32
Speaker
You have to, like the whole point around logical fallacies is to look at the merits of the actual argument made and then respond to that as opposed to what the person is about or where they're coming from or other matters.
00:22:44
Speaker
Yeah.
00:22:45
Speaker
Oh, I see what you mean.
00:22:46
Speaker
I think this, when I think about it now more deeply, it seems that this is the ultimate emotional trigger, right?
00:22:54
Speaker
Because if somebody dismisses you for you, it can be very offensive.
00:22:58
Speaker
And then it takes a lot of, I don't know, strength and holding yourself up to be like, okay, but that is besides the point, please address my argument, right?
00:23:07
Speaker
Yes, exactly.
00:23:09
Speaker
Exactly.
00:23:10
Speaker
And that's not to say that, you know, it isn't to say, I mean, I use the example of people who are single as an example.
00:23:15
Speaker
That doesn't mean to say people who are single always give good advice around dating relationships.
00:23:18
Speaker
They absolutely don't.
00:23:19
Speaker
But the point was to focus on what they're saying as opposed to their relationship status or other factors.
00:23:26
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, that is pretty hard, I think, in life because it's such a hard thing to navigate.
00:23:31
Speaker
And sometimes when you're seeking advice, it really does depend for you who you get it from.
00:23:36
Speaker
But I think we spoke about it in a past episode where it's like, if you're getting advice from different people, it's not like one is right and one is wrong.
00:23:44
Speaker
But like every piece of advice for me is like painted with the person who gave it to me.
00:23:48
Speaker
Kind of like if I'm reading a piece of news, I will also attach to that piece of information in my mind
00:23:54
Speaker
where I read it, if that makes sense.
00:23:56
Speaker
Because that paints the tone and that paints the values.
00:24:00
Speaker
Yes, definitely.
00:24:01
Speaker
But I think it is like normal and natural to look at what, you know, where people are coming from.
00:24:08
Speaker
But ad hominem, and we'll get onto the genetic fallacy in a bit, but the ad hominem is specifically about attacking the person.
00:24:15
Speaker
and not the argument.
00:24:16
Speaker
So just because you disagree with somebody, that doesn't mean that their person or who they are or their relationship status deserves to be attacked as a response to something unrelated that they've said.
00:24:27
Speaker
Yeah, I understand what you mean now if I think about it in like a bit shifted.
00:24:32
Speaker
example, like let's say there is a discussion about finances and you're there and you're a financially successful person and somebody else is there who's not, you both may give a piece of advice to dismiss the other person's piece of advice because he's not doing that well financially would be
00:24:49
Speaker
indeed intellectually lazy because I can put that aside maybe he does have a good idea or maybe not but if I address the idea directly then I'm actually you know engaging in reasonable conversation and like a logical discussion yeah it's a good way of putting it
00:25:06
Speaker
So yeah, that's the ad hominem fallacy.
00:25:08
Speaker
So on to the next one, the appeal to tradition.
Tradition vs. Progress in Dating Standards
00:25:12
Speaker
So we see this a lot in dating when people, you know, you think back to the 1950s or the 1940s or prior to that, when their grandparents had such long lasting, stable relationships that nobody ever left.
00:25:25
Speaker
And they were together for 70 years up until they both died.
00:25:28
Speaker
Right.
00:25:29
Speaker
So this is an appeal to tradition is when you argue for something because you
00:25:35
Speaker
It's always been done that way.
00:25:37
Speaker
And that's just the way it is.
00:25:39
Speaker
And it's often used, again, I mean, quite prominently in the sex work argument.
00:25:44
Speaker
So when people say, well, sex work is the oldest profession, like firstly, it's unlikely to be true.
00:25:49
Speaker
Secondly, it's the oldest form of exploitation because I severely doubt that, you know, prostitutes in the 1400s
00:25:57
Speaker
you know, are actually making any decent money if they were not controlled by a pimp.
00:26:01
Speaker
And thirdly, most importantly, just because something is old, that doesn't mean that it's a good, it's a good thing.
00:26:06
Speaker
Case in point, slavery.
00:26:07
Speaker
Oh my God.
00:26:08
Speaker
Like slavery's been around for centuries, probably since humans, you know, began to walk the earth and started amassing resources.
00:26:14
Speaker
But that's not a reason to have slavery around because it's always been there.
00:26:19
Speaker
Damn, mic drop.
00:26:20
Speaker
That's a very good argument.
00:26:21
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, always been around is also very limited because what do we know about history?
00:26:26
Speaker
It's just a glimpse.
00:26:27
Speaker
Exactly.
00:26:29
Speaker
Exactly.
00:26:30
Speaker
Especially when people think like, I don't know.
00:26:32
Speaker
I mean, my mind, I mean, I do enjoy history, but anything prior to 1800 is just a bit too far back for my mind to fathom in terms of, you know, what life could have been like.
00:26:42
Speaker
But yeah, there's still a lot about human history and human behavior that we just don't know because it was so long ago.
00:26:48
Speaker
I mean, literally for the majority of the human race, we were hunters gatherers.
00:26:53
Speaker
And who said that women weren't doing majority of the hunting in the gathering?
00:26:56
Speaker
Who said that maybe men were maybe the caregivers who sat at home because they were the ones who could protect the offspring?
00:27:02
Speaker
From the very little that I know, I mean, it's hypothesized because literally, like, we don't know what happened there because there was no writing.
00:27:10
Speaker
That's why history starts at a certain point.
00:27:13
Speaker
But I think that there was just a big variety, like a lot of different social structures.
00:27:19
Speaker
And indeed, in some of them, like women had a lot of power.
00:27:22
Speaker
I imagine some were matriarchal.
00:27:24
Speaker
Yeah.
00:27:25
Speaker
And that's literally the majority of our human race and all of our biology and evolutionary psychology.
00:27:30
Speaker
All of that has evolved during that time.
00:27:32
Speaker
So, yeah.
00:27:34
Speaker
Exactly.
00:27:34
Speaker
So appeal to tradition.
00:27:36
Speaker
Don't fall for it.
00:27:37
Speaker
Because again, just because something is old, that doesn't mean it's good.
00:27:40
Speaker
At the same time, it was, again, another example, it was, you know, it was the norm for children to be sent to work down the mines.
00:27:49
Speaker
Again, that's not a practice we condone nowadays, because we realise that that is not acceptable.
00:27:53
Speaker
And we still campaign to this day for child labour to end.
00:27:56
Speaker
So...
00:27:57
Speaker
Yeah, the appeal to tradition.
00:27:59
Speaker
Yeah, definitely.
00:28:00
Speaker
I think that could be an argument that is usually made on the favor of patriarchy, right?
00:28:05
Speaker
Because basically, what does it mean?
00:28:07
Speaker
Oh, once upon a time, women didn't use to divorce their husbands.
00:28:10
Speaker
Yeah, because they didn't have social status outside of their marriage.
00:28:13
Speaker
Yeah, it wasn't an option to divorce.
00:28:15
Speaker
There's a reason why when divorce was legalized in America, the divorce rate shot up.
00:28:20
Speaker
When women could get their own money and have bank accounts and credit cards, the divorce rate shot up.
00:28:25
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely.
00:28:25
Speaker
So yeah, it's a very weird way to make something legitimate saying that it was the norm for a lot of years.
00:28:32
Speaker
But as an aside though, as an aside, I think was it maybe you or Lilith who pointed out that before women could get divorced, they would just kill their husbands.
00:28:40
Speaker
So when men want to remove like no fault divorce, I wonder if the murder rate for men will just increase because women, because they just kill them or they just murder them.
00:28:50
Speaker
That sounds like, first of all, I'm flattered that you can flay between me and Lilith.
00:28:54
Speaker
I think that's a Lilith thing.
00:28:56
Speaker
That sounds like very on brand.
00:28:59
Speaker
This isn't condoning murder, by the way.
00:29:01
Speaker
This is just, you know, women, I guess, being desperate get out of a bad marriage.
00:29:05
Speaker
Exactly.
00:29:06
Speaker
Desperation is exactly the word that I was striving for.
00:29:08
Speaker
Of course, I don't think anybody should be killed.
00:29:10
Speaker
But in a situation where you're in a cage and you have no options, and if you think about women in bad, toxic relationships right now, they end up running to a shelter where they are alone just so they can be away from the person.
00:29:26
Speaker
So, of course, if you can't run away, that makes a lot of sense to me.
00:29:29
Speaker
I mean, it's sad.
00:29:30
Speaker
It's sad for both the person that needs to kill someone
00:29:33
Speaker
a man, the woman like is also sad for her.
00:29:36
Speaker
There was actually a really big case in the UK about a woman who murdered her husband.
00:29:41
Speaker
And she either got either pardoned or a very, very reduced sentence because she was able to prove her sons like campaigned for her as well.
00:29:49
Speaker
But she was able to prove that there'd been a sustained amount of domestic and emotional and psychological abuse from her husband.
00:29:57
Speaker
So it was self-defense.
00:29:58
Speaker
Yeah.
00:29:59
Speaker
It wasn't really self-defense because she wasn't in any physical danger.
00:30:03
Speaker
It wasn't self-defense in the sense of he was about to shoot her with a gun to her head at that moment, but it was self-defense in the broader sense.
00:30:11
Speaker
Exactly.
00:30:12
Speaker
It was like sustained abuse and coercive control, and she actually got a reduced sentence.
00:30:16
Speaker
So she was sentenced to manslaughter, and she was eventually released from prison, I think in about 2019.
00:30:21
Speaker
It was a really big case.
00:30:23
Speaker
I'll link it in the show notes.
00:30:24
Speaker
And basically, her two sons campaigned heavily in her favor.
00:30:28
Speaker
because they knew the abuse she'd, you know, that she'd suffered.
00:30:32
Speaker
And yeah, you know, that was a mitigating factor in her sentencing and her release.
00:30:37
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it's awful for everybody.
00:30:39
Speaker
Like a sane human being doesn't want to have to kill somebody.
00:30:42
Speaker
Yeah.
00:30:43
Speaker
So men should be careful what they wish for if they want to get rid of no-fault divorce, because I wonder if that's... And especially nowadays, we've got more understanding of the role of domestic abuse, because back in, you know, way back when, people didn't have a concept of domestic abuse.
00:30:57
Speaker
Like, you could legally rape your wife and there'd be nothing wrong with it, right?
00:31:01
Speaker
You wouldn't call it abuse, you would just call it domestic.
00:31:04
Speaker
Exactly, just being married.
00:31:06
Speaker
Like, it's just part of being married.
00:31:07
Speaker
But now we've got a better understanding of especially complex abuse, like coercive control, where you may not be physically, like, you know, beating you, but that's still a severe form of abuse.
00:31:17
Speaker
So it may not work out well for them, ultimately.
00:31:20
Speaker
Yeah, if somebody tells you, why can't we just go back to the 20s and 30s where women didn't leave their husbands, just tell them, oh yeah, you know what the death rate was for men back then?
00:31:30
Speaker
I need to find out what that is.
00:31:31
Speaker
I'm going to look into that because it'll be interesting to know.
00:31:37
Speaker
stand at the foot of the bed.
False Equivalence in Standards
00:31:40
Speaker
So the false equivalence.
00:31:42
Speaker
So treating two unequal things as if they are the same.
00:31:46
Speaker
So I will say on the record, I have no problems with men having standards for women.
00:31:50
Speaker
In fact, I think relationships and just dating that generally, unlike Patricia's friend, is better if everybody had standards and stuck to them.
00:31:58
Speaker
So nobody's settled for them.
00:32:00
Speaker
People are happier.
00:32:00
Speaker
Men can have standards too.
00:32:02
Speaker
But a common false equivalence we see is if a woman says,
00:32:07
Speaker
But if a woman says, for example, she wants to date a man who's 6'4", and a guy then says, oh, well, I've got a weight requirement.
00:32:13
Speaker
And I'm not saying men can't have a weight requirement, but the reason why these two aren't the same is that height is objective.
00:32:18
Speaker
So a 6'4 man will look the same whether he's in Portugal, Denmark, Nigeria, US, because 6'4 is an objective measure.
00:32:28
Speaker
The thing with weight is that two people can weigh exactly the same and look very different.
00:32:33
Speaker
okay, but, you know, just to be nitty-gritty about it, the person can also say, I have, like, a BMI index.
00:32:39
Speaker
Or he can just say it, like, very flatly, as my brother says, like, I don't like women who are a little fat.
00:32:45
Speaker
Or he would say, like, she wasn't pretty enough.
00:32:47
Speaker
No, that's fine.
00:32:48
Speaker
I mean, I'm not saying they can't, but I'm just saying that the actual standard doesn't make sense because, you know, height is objective, but weight is, it presents differently on different people.
00:32:56
Speaker
Somebody who's got a 32 BMI, you know, they might look very different to another person who looks...
00:33:03
Speaker
a 32 bmi and from my experience men are really really bad at estimating women's weight they're very bad but yeah so the standards aren't really and you know a woman can just lie about their weight and they're likely obviously if a woman is say you know 600 pounds if i say i'm 120 then no but you can just lie it's easier to lie about weight than it is to lie about your height because you know i don't know but that's a very superficial example
00:33:27
Speaker
But just so you know, on a dating app, if you see a person, like if you see a man's height, always subtract five centimeters or two inches.
00:33:36
Speaker
That's what people have said.
00:33:37
Speaker
I mean, for me, I do prefer taller men.
00:33:40
Speaker
But my general thing is, as long as I can't see like the middle of his head, like the top of his head, he's fine.
00:33:45
Speaker
I'm not really...
00:33:46
Speaker
Like he has to be over six feet.
00:33:48
Speaker
And again, it also depends a lot on his build, on the way he carries himself.
00:33:53
Speaker
It depends a lot on the build.
00:33:56
Speaker
A lot.
00:33:56
Speaker
Because a lot of the times the short guys, not just that they're short, they're just small.
00:34:00
Speaker
That's like a little bit unattractive to me.
00:34:03
Speaker
But I want to dive deeper into this false argument that you're saying, because like, what are you actually trying to say?
00:34:09
Speaker
Because in the show notes, you gave a different example.
00:34:12
Speaker
You're saying...
00:34:13
Speaker
Women reject short men, so men rejecting single mothers is the same thing.
00:34:18
Speaker
Can you explain more what's the fallacy here, why is it wrong, and what should we do about it?
00:34:22
Speaker
I don't think it's wrong.
00:34:25
Speaker
I just think the standards are just not really equal in the sense that having a standard for single moms is very different to having a physical requirement.
00:34:35
Speaker
Like I say, I think it's a false equivalence
00:34:38
Speaker
you know, generally, because I don't think any woman is saying that men have to date women who are fat or they have to date women who are single moms.
00:34:46
Speaker
I mean, I've got my qualms with the body positivity movement generally, but what it's really about is to still treat people that you don't want to date with respect.
00:34:53
Speaker
And men struggle to do that.
00:34:55
Speaker
I mean, to be honest, single mothers are demonized, but they're not inherently bad people.
00:35:00
Speaker
And sometimes people can become a single mother through no fault of their own.
00:35:03
Speaker
Like my mom is a single mother because her husband died, but that wasn't her fault.
00:35:08
Speaker
Yeah.
00:35:08
Speaker
I don't know why are single moms demonized?
00:35:11
Speaker
I think it's more that men prefer not to date single moms because they want to procreate and have, you know, it's like a thing.
00:35:18
Speaker
But single dads don't get the same energy.
00:35:20
Speaker
And a lot of single dads will deliberately go for women without children so they can basically get a free babysitter.
00:35:27
Speaker
And the energy isn't equal.
00:35:28
Speaker
And again, I'm not saying a man has to date a single mom.
00:35:32
Speaker
But it's also about that respect.
00:35:34
Speaker
Just because you wouldn't date somebody, A, that doesn't mean that you demonize them as a whole group.
00:35:38
Speaker
Like, I'm not physically attracted to short men, but I wouldn't be like all short men are ugly or that they don't deserve love.
00:35:46
Speaker
Yeah, because people have merit besides their sexual attractiveness.
00:35:50
Speaker
Like in the context of dating, you want to be with people who are sexually attractive to you.
00:35:53
Speaker
But outside of the context of dating, which is life, a lot of people exist and they don't all have to be sexually attractive to you to get respect.
00:36:02
Speaker
Exactly.
00:36:02
Speaker
And, you know, me saying, like, I don't find short men attractive, is it me saying that all short men are ugly or that they're unattractive or don't deserve love or anything that I think at the bottom of the poll?
00:36:13
Speaker
Or that if you have a short colleague, a male short colleague, and he presents a presentation that you will be disrespectful to his presentation or something that's like besides the point.
00:36:22
Speaker
Exactly, exactly.
00:36:23
Speaker
A lot of men counter and say women can control their weight, which is true.
00:36:27
Speaker
But then I always like to counter, I'm being a bit facetious here, but I always say, well, men can also control how much money they make.
00:36:33
Speaker
So you can't really then complain if a man wants a man with more money because you can control that.
00:36:38
Speaker
It's not easy to control, just like it's not always easy for a woman to control her weight, but you know.
00:36:43
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely.
Conclusion and Listener Engagement
00:36:44
Speaker
But yeah, so that is part one of the logical fallacies.
00:36:48
Speaker
We will do the logical fallacies six to 10 in the next episode.
00:36:52
Speaker
But yeah, let us know what you think so far.
00:36:53
Speaker
If you've come across any of these logical fallacies, if you have any better examples, a way to counter them.
00:36:59
Speaker
But yeah, let us know.
00:37:00
Speaker
And we will see you next week.
00:37:02
Speaker
Yeah, let's continue the conversation.
00:37:04
Speaker
Yeah.
00:37:05
Speaker
Bye, queens.