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14: What's Your Fantasy - Lord of the Rings with Christine
35 Plays4 months ago
Get in loser, we're going to Mordor!
Our special guest Christine (@Ordinerdy_) joins us to talk about one of the most pivotal entries into the fantasy genre, the Lord of the Rings.
Opinions shared by the hosts and/or guests of Real Hot Nerd Shit are their own and do not represent any workplace or organization with whom they may or may not be affiliated.
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest
00:00:33
Ryan
Why won't it stop?
00:00:37
Ryan
Welcome to Real Hot Nerd Shit, a pop culture podcast where real hot nerds talk about real nerd shit. I'm your host, Ryan.
00:00:44
Shauna (she/her)
And I'm your co-host Shana.
00:00:46
Ryan
And on this episode of Real Hot Nerd Shit, we are talking about the Lord of the Rings franchise, specifically the two towers in our theme of what's your fantasy.
00:00:57
Shauna (she/her)
And to that, we have our special guest hot nerd for this episode, Christine. So welcome to our podcast.
00:01:03
Christine
Hi,
Nerd Identities Discussion
00:01:03
Christine
thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited. this is My whole life has led to this moment, actually.
00:01:10
Ryan
coincidentally enough, same. um I can't wait to talk about the Lord of the Rings, like, just experience ah that that we all had. I can't wait to find the similarities, but before we do that, you know, we we realize that we all have multiple nerd identities, right? So, like, you know, we could be nerdy about fashion, about Lord of the Rings, all these things.
00:01:33
Ryan
but we think of a nerd as someone who is weirdly knowledgeable and passionate about something that people sometimes find uncool. So, Christine, what are you a nerd about?
00:01:46
Christine
Pretty much um everything that nerd culture embraces, so ah Star Wars, the MCU, old school Pokemon, ah so many things, Lord of the Rings, obviously. um And then more generally, I just love movie trivia, ah movies and TV. I memorize actors' names and faces, like it's my job and it's really weird sometimes for people, I think.
00:02:14
Christine
um So many things of books lately is I've been trying to like as an adult get more into books. um I used to be like in reading Olympics and all of that stuff, but as an adult completely fell off.
Podcast Origins and Community
00:02:26
Christine
ah So trying to get more into books too. So yeah, that's the general overview.
00:02:31
Ryan
I love it. Okay, great. You're in great company. We're gonna get along Famously
00:02:36
Shauna (she/her)
yeah
Dodgeball Camaraderie
00:02:36
Shauna (she/her)
So as you were saying that this is actually what kind of brought our podcast together was this kind of same shared interest and you know where we realized we had so many different overlapping you know intersections of nerdery and we should talk about it because we love talking to each other about it and so now here we are talking to you talking to all of you. Whomest ever made me out there.
00:03:00
Ryan
What I just found out, Christine, that I don't think I knew is that the connection between the two of you is dodgeball.
00:03:07
Christine
It is yes, I've known Shauna for a long time through dodgeball.
00:03:08
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah.
00:03:10
Christine
I only started playing a couple years ago, but I've seen Shauna play and dominate for years now.
00:03:16
Ryan
Yeah, hell yeah. where um And you're, where are you located again? West Coast?
00:03:20
Christine
yeah ah East Coast right outside of Philly.
00:03:22
Ryan
Oh, nice. Okay. um And are you on competitive teams? Do you play in a league?
00:03:27
Christine
Uh, yes, I do. I, um, we are competitive. We keep it light though. Uh, we're just more of a fun vibes team and we're competitive as well, but, uh,
00:03:37
Ryan
Yeah.
00:03:37
Shauna (she/her)
You could arguably say that you know you're just happy to be there. and the
00:03:40
Christine
and right. We are often just happy to be there. And so that's my team name, just happy to be here. So that gives you an idea of the vibe.
00:03:47
Ryan
Oh I love that.
00:03:50
Ryan
Coincidentally enough, I'm wearing the Christmas present that Shawna got me that is the inspiration for our dodgeball team name. It says down the witch's road from obviously Agatha all along, and our team name is Dodge the Witch's Throw, and we are premiering this Sunday, which I'm so excited about.
00:04:10
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah.
00:04:11
Christine
That's amazing.
00:04:11
Ryan
We finally get to get back into the courts.
00:04:12
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah. Our little local Stonewall Sports League.
00:04:14
Christine
and
00:04:16
Shauna (she/her)
And, you know, it's always a fun time. And like, you know, it's also that same kind of just like light, you know, happy just to like, well, just it but like, honestly, because it's just fun to be playing a game with your friends.
00:04:28
Shauna (she/her)
And like, I always love that perspective that you like in your team bring, because I think it's so important to remember we are adults playing a game and it should be fun.
00:04:40
Christine
that's right
00:04:40
Shauna (she/her)
And I think that is, I love that personally and it's kind of that same energy that I always want to bring.
00:04:40
Ryan
Back.
00:04:42
Christine
That's right.
00:04:44
Shauna (she/her)
And so I was like, yes, I'm always like very here for that kind of perspective. And, you know, I think there always needs to be more of that. So, yeah.
00:04:54
Christine
Yeah, I feel like it brings us together and there's a lot of camaraderie when we do when we think about it like that. And at the end of the day, we're just a bunch of friends who like to play dodgeball together. So putting it into perspective is nice.
00:05:07
Ryan
always and like you know the competitiveness you can you can still be in community with people and also competitive like you know you don't have to be actively trying to cause harm to be competitive like i just want to win and i want to win with my friends but i don't think i need to you know terrify the opponents like with threats of physical violence in order to you know get that accomplished but
00:05:07
Shauna (she/her)
Absolutely.
00:05:34
Ryan
dodgeball is dodgeball is a really tricky sport to hold those two truths simultaneously because of the nature of how competition comes out in all of us.
00:05:42
Christine
yeah
00:05:46
Ryan
Like it does have a tendency to bring out some of our least favorable characteristics.
00:05:50
Shauna (she/her)
one especially with dodgeball being such an honesty based sport that there's such that kind of personal like you know ethics that whether you realize it or not in a moment we're like oh like all of those kinds of things it really kind of helps you know bring that to you like so yeah i think that's such a fun part of it but i think that's fun too is that like i always say that honesty is a skill and it's a skill you can practice every time you step on the court
00:06:06
Christine
Yeah. Yeah.
00:06:09
Christine
You're so right.
00:06:09
Ryan
Totally.
00:06:18
Ryan
Yeah.
00:06:19
Christine
hundred percent.
00:06:19
Ryan
That's why Sean is the captain.
00:06:21
Christine
That's
00:06:23
Ryan
So it's our first dodgeball season or it's our first dodge ballll game of 2025 this Sunday. um This is also our first recording session of 2025. Happy New Year. We made it. We still have a couple more weeks before the world ends. But um speaking of the world ending, i let's talk about some just current events things.
Casting Debates: X-Men's Storm
00:06:47
Ryan
And I'm actually very excited, but um Christine, to hear your perspective because Shawna and I have already talked about this.
00:06:53
Ryan
um I am a big Storm fan from the X-Men. Aurora Monroe is my numero uno X-Men number one character in all of Marvel Universe. I have a huge tattoo of her on my thigh. I have a small collection of different Storm figures on my display. And people are now talking about this clip that went viral of Cynthia Rivo, the Broadway star, and now
00:07:27
Ryan
star of Wicked as Elphaba saying that her next dream role is Storm. I'm going to hold my thoughts, but i'm I'm curious, Christine, what's what's what's your first take on it? Have you have you seen this?
00:07:41
Christine
Uh, so when you were chatting about it, um, before the show it was the first time I had actually heard it, which is weird because I'm pretty online, so I can't believe I missed this, but, uh, I love Cynthia Arevo. I think what she did with Elphaba was incredible. Obviously I've been very wicked pilled, uh, lately. So.
00:07:58
Christine
I'm fully into it. But um yeah, I think just storm in general, I think in the live action films, especially has never had a chance to really shine as much as she should.
00:08:10
Christine
And I just want that for her. So the more hype this gets, and the like, the more we put our faith in somebody who I think can bring the power behind storm, which I think Cynthia Rebo can, the better, in my opinion, I'm super excited.
00:08:24
Christine
I just want to know more and support it as much as possible.
00:08:26
Ryan
Yeah.
00:08:28
Ryan
That's fair. I don't think I really thought about the power that we've seen Cynthia Rivo display and how that could translate really well to Storm.
00:08:41
Ryan
I am of the mindset right now. I want all new people. I want no-name actors and actresses to to take up the mantle.
00:08:49
Shauna (she/her)
Mmm.
00:08:52
Ryan
I don't want to compare. I don't want to, you know, I just, I would like something fresh. And i I think there are a couple of like existing actors or just people in general, Jodie Turner Smith, who is just like, you know, this absolutely stunning woman who I think has the regality of Storm, but I don't know anything about her chops. Like if she acts or whatever, I just know her name.
00:09:20
Ryan
But it just feels very like, you know, Cynthia is on everyone's lips as she deserves to be, rightfully so. Everyone should be talking about her. I just, it feels a little like, and lazy is the wrong word, but I just think there's another person who is perhaps Kenyan in origin that might be a little more on, um you know, kind of just something, a different perspective.
00:09:49
Ryan
I'm cool with Cynthia, um but I would really...
00:09:50
Shauna (she/her)
um like if it happens you'd be like okay this is this you know what you could do a heck of a lot worse like because I think I hadn't thought of that from the like she really does have that kind of commanding you know and I see this in a it takes a certain kind of sense of self to be at that level and at that stage but I think that you know Cynthia Riveau has a bit of a
00:09:58
Ryan
You could do a heck of a lot worse.
00:10:19
Shauna (she/her)
lack of a better term, diva-ness to her. Like there's a very, like I've heard that she's a very, it's not difficult, like difficult to work, but like very exacting. She's very particular.
00:10:30
Shauna (she/her)
She's very, she knows what she wants and she is, and expects that. And I think that attitude that she herself has is so important to Storm as a character that I think was something that you were saying it was really missing in some previous iterations.
00:10:45
Shauna (she/her)
And so I think in that regard, I think she could do it really well.
00:10:48
Christine
Yeah. And no shade to Halle Berry who played Storm in the like original live action.
00:10:49
Ryan
great.
00:10:51
Shauna (she/her)
No. No.
00:10:52
Christine
She was wonderful. I just think that it's, those movies don't get remembered for anything relating to her, which is such a shame. They, especially the later ones get remembered for, you know, kind of falling off a little bit.
00:11:04
Christine
Um, so it would be really nice to see more, more of that character.
00:11:04
Shauna (she/her)
No.
00:11:09
Ryan
Agreed.
00:11:09
Shauna (she/her)
I just don't want Ariana Grande as Jean Grey.
00:11:10
Ryan
Agreed.
00:11:11
Shauna (she/her)
I think that one's the mistake.
00:11:12
Ryan
Like, come on.
00:11:13
Christine
Yeah.
00:11:13
Shauna (she/her)
that like That was like, I think that now that is, that one's lazy.
00:11:17
Christine
yeah
00:11:17
Ryan
That's super lazy.
00:11:17
Shauna (she/her)
That's a little like, okay, like, well, no, but if we put Cindy or Evo, then clearly we, I was like.
00:11:22
Ryan
Right. Super lazy. And though the actor from Stranger Things that plays the new, ah the newish girl from the last couple of seasons, she has red hair.
00:11:31
Christine
Baby sink.
00:11:36
Ryan
Yes. What do you, what do you thought people have been, have been fan casting her? What are our thoughts?
00:11:41
Christine
So she hasn't really proven her acting chops to me yet, other than, I mean, in Stranger Things, she was great. And then she was in The Whale, which was like an Oscar movie from a couple years ago.
00:11:52
Ryan
Oh yeah.
00:11:54
Shauna (she/her)
Oh, yeah.
00:11:54
Christine
And she kind of plays the same character so far to me, which is kind of like Angry Teenager. um So I don't really see it yet, but I mean, she could surprise me.
00:11:59
Shauna (she/her)
o
00:12:03
Christine
I just would want to see her in something else to kind of like, for me personally, to be on board fully.
00:12:11
Ryan
Yeah, weird.
00:12:11
Christine
Because Jean Grey is a nuanced character, so.
00:12:13
Ryan
Hello.
00:12:14
Shauna (she/her)
o
00:12:14
Ryan
And also, she's like... Shauna often says like 1A and 1B. That's, they're my 1A and 1B. Like Jean Grey is of you not necessarily equal importance, but like the magnitude of, I always loved Jean Grey just as much.
00:12:24
Christine
Yeah.
00:12:29
Ryan
Like, and then to see them come together as sisters for real in X-Men 97 was like such, like, I want to get that that image of them, like, you know, and on the plane together, like tattooed over my heart.
00:12:30
Christine
Yes.
00:12:40
Ryan
It's just, it's just too good. Too good. Another strange, well, actually, speaking of Storm, are you a gamer, Christine?
00:12:50
Christine
I used to be and then I kind of fell off once I got more into books again. It's really like it's hard to balance all of these hobbies that I want to have.
00:12:56
Ryan
It is. It is.
00:12:59
Shauna (she/her)
Isn't that the truth?
00:13:00
Christine
Yeah.
00:13:01
Ryan
And we've talked about that before. like For the longest time, games were the first thing to go on my priority list. like If I had a more interesting book or I wanted to get caught up on comics, like it was always games that would drop off. But this past year, 2024, we started doing a lot more online gaming within our group of friends. And all of a sudden, you know books are piling up. I haven't read you know any of the new X-books over the past couple of months. However, we have been playing Marvel Rivals, which dropped at the beginning of December. And season one just officially started yesterday, which included
00:13:39
Ryan
Mr. Fantastic and the Invisible Woman as new playable characters. And then they did a bunch of like nerfing and buffing to existing characters, one of whom is Storm. And toads to all.
00:13:54
Ryan
one of whom is Storm, and I'm still dissatisfied, I'm sorry. She has one, she has two offensive attacks. Her L, she doesn't even have like, you know, L2 and L1 for PlayStation is just ascend and descend.
00:14:09
Ryan
Like, come the fuck on.
00:14:11
Christine
Yeah.
00:14:11
Ryan
She is an Omega level mutant. Give that bitch some power. She should be able to tear that shit up.
00:14:16
Christine
Yeah, this is what I mean.
00:14:17
Ryan
No thoughts.
00:14:18
Christine
She doesn't get the respect that she deserves in a lot of this media.
00:14:20
Ryan
It's no joke. So true.
00:14:23
Shauna (she/her)
Absolutely.
00:14:23
Ryan
Are you reading any of the X-books?
00:14:25
Christine
No, not yet, but i I always kind of do this thing where I wait for like a ton of them to pile up and then I just go at them.
00:14:30
Ryan
Yeah.
00:14:32
Christine
So that's where I'm at right now.
00:14:32
Ryan
Yeah.
00:14:33
Shauna (she/her)
o
00:14:35
Ryan
Same, same, same, same. um Have you introduced um comics to your your child yet, Shauna?
00:14:43
Shauna (she/her)
So yes and no, he has very like child level comics, like which I really love that there's a lot of like young reader based comics that aren't necessarily like superhero, but there are like, you know, it's like
00:14:50
Ryan
Yeah.
00:14:58
Shauna (she/her)
this like cat it cat adventures book that he really loves reading about these cats that's really cute or there's this book called narwhal and jelly about these two characters and i really appreciate that they're neither of the characters are they never use pronouns for their characters because they're always in dialogue with each other and so it's really nice so we could be like oh anyone can reading it can kind of self insert and see themselves in it and see like which i really like that kind of accessibility and it's very is he's starting to read so we can take turns and like one of us will be one character and the other will be the other
00:15:16
Ryan
Yeah.
00:15:32
Shauna (she/her)
and so we can kind of read it back and forth with each other so it's been so he definitely has like is appreciating like the panel art style that is comic books but isn't necessarily like you know like I'm sure there's like going to be like a little kid spider-man because like he loves spider-man like our speaking of which we just got a new cat that's like our other big thing this little sweetkin and this kitten is black and white so he had to be named Venom
00:15:55
Ryan
Of
00:16:00
Shauna (she/her)
And so this little, this little Venom, and he is absolutely a Venom, has just been such a sweetheart, jumping, running, snuggling, like could not ask for a better kitten for our family.
00:16:00
Ryan
course.
00:16:13
Shauna (she/her)
So it's been really wonderful. But yeah, he loves Spider-Man, and I'm sure that's going to be like, like, I'm really excited for that upcoming show that they're putting out. That's very much a, his level, the one that comes out at the end of January.
00:16:25
Ryan
Oh, yeah, Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man on Disney+.
00:16:28
Christine
yeah
00:16:28
Ryan
plot Yeah.
00:16:28
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah, cause he's, starting to get a little out of Spidey and his amazing friends just because it's more based for preschool level and now that he's in like first grade it's kind of he's starting to be just on the edge of that and like wants more like i there's this show called uh sesame street and mecha builders where all of these sesame street characters have these like giant mechs so like there's a giant cookie monster mech
00:16:53
Ryan
Thicc!
00:16:54
Shauna (she/her)
and the other day right like it's very cool and he asked us the other day he's like so where did these mechs come from who built them and i was like okay and i didn't know how to say sweetheart that you're asking for the deep lore of sesame street mecha builders is probably why maybe we're ready to move forward and
00:16:55
Ryan
good
00:17:13
Shauna (she/her)
the media you consume but that was my thought of like okay you want more and more depth and you love knowing all of these things like you know like one of the Christmas books I got him was one of those like do you ever have those like almost encyclopedia-esque books that were like the white books where they would be like all of the X-Men and it would give like a little bio page for everyone and so I got him one on the Spider-Verse characters that he really loved and so
00:17:16
Ryan
yeah
00:17:20
Ryan
Yeah.
00:17:34
Ryan
yeah
00:17:40
Ryan
Very cute.
00:17:41
Shauna (she/her)
i didn't Yeah, so that's been a really fun, but yeah, so definitely going to be, he's very nerdy, so I'm sure comic books will be in the future and I'm sure I'll have to dig out my collection from wherever it is in my house.
00:17:49
Ryan
Yeah.
00:17:57
Shauna (she/her)
and
00:17:57
Ryan
And he's got a bunch of gay, nerdy aunties and and auntie adjacents that are more than happy to lend him again from our personal libraries.
00:18:07
Shauna (she/her)
He has a lot of great aunties, uncles, and everywhere between who are more than willing to share their knowledge and well and information and collections with him, and um I can't wait for that.
00:18:21
Ryan
last sort of you know pop culture nerdy moment. So Will Smith the other day, who many of us know was originally cast as Neo in The Matrix,
00:18:36
Ryan
um had posted something on his instagram that was you know styled a la the original matrix with like the type and font and whatever i did notice that it was red instead of green which was what the original you know matrix type was um but it said something about how he was going to be Neo and then like that was it. It just said like ah the next chapter something is coming. I don't even really remember what the post was, but obviously he's alluding to something with him and the Matrix. What are our thoughts?
00:19:10
Christine
Well, first I want to say that when I learned originally that ah he was supposed to be Neo, I was kind of like, um, I learned this, I don't know, a couple of years ago. So I didn't know the deep lore of the casting for the matrix originally, but it's funny because looking back, we just rewatched the matrix during COVID.
00:19:27
Christine
And I was like, I don't know.
00:19:28
Ryan
yeah
00:19:29
Christine
I feel like Will Smith is too charismatic to be Neo. He kind of worked as right.
00:19:32
Shauna (she/her)
Hmm.
00:19:33
Christine
Like Keanu Reeves kind of worked as this kind of deadpan, very low key dude who then is. like ramps up to being the one and all of that. um So it's funny that we're back to this conversation with Will Smith now.
00:19:47
Christine
ah But I think is the word on the street that it's like a music video or a new album that he's coming out with now?
00:19:51
Ryan
Yeah.
00:19:55
Ryan
Oh I haven't heard that.
00:19:55
Shauna (she/her)
Oh, I would like that would be interesting.
00:19:57
Christine
I I was deep in the Reddit threads and the Reddit threads were saying that they think it's it's his for his return to music in some way.
00:19:59
Ryan
Yeah.
00:20:06
Christine
And that's like the way that he's getting hype for it. And I don't know if that's true, but that's like what I've the most pervasive theory that I've been seeing. So we'll
00:20:15
Ryan
Well, thank you for doing that legwork because I hadn't heard any of it.
00:20:15
Shauna (she/her)
Alright.
00:20:20
Ryan
I like For as nerdy as I am, I'm just now really starting to utilize Reddit as like a tool. um So I never would have come across those things. So I'm fascinated.
00:20:31
Ryan
I would be down with that.
00:20:33
Christine
Yeah, that's and that's fair, right? It's very overwhelming, um but to to get started with.
00:20:36
Ryan
I'm confusing and weird and lots of weird shits on there.
00:20:37
Shauna (she/her)
But especially as like the the internet's breaking so much more and like everything just works less and like when I want to search for an answer for something I Immediately go to the what does reddit say about it because I feel like I'm much more likely to get an actual person Posing an actual question answered by actual people unlike the top five Google searches which are all AI generated slop and so or sponsored yeah same thing but like
00:20:38
Christine
and
00:20:50
Ryan
Right.
00:21:00
Ryan
sponsored or sponsored.
00:21:06
Shauna (she/her)
no one No one has any actual care, it's all algorithm-based and often is like irrelevant and it's so irritating
00:21:08
Ryan
Yeah.
Internet and Information Access
00:21:13
Shauna (she/her)
to me.
00:21:14
Shauna (she/her)
is like ah Having grown up on a different internet and now seeing you know the way it's truly degraded in quality and quantity. Both quality and quantity. But...
00:21:25
Christine
I can blame it.
00:21:25
Ryan
Yeah, I'm
00:21:26
Shauna (she/her)
ouch.
00:21:27
Ryan
I really like that theory, although there is a part of me that would be kind of disappointed to find out if it's like just music or just something, you know, not directly tied to The Matrix.
00:21:39
Christine
you
00:21:40
Ryan
I think because I know how nerds are and I know how fandoms are, like there's a part of me. I love Will Smith. I've always loved Will Smith.
00:21:50
Ryan
Obviously he's like a pivotal part of growing up, but then also as you know the the black kid growing up that kind of subverted expectations or whatever, Will Smith was very, um he was a different type of black talent that was like rising to rising through um Hollywood. And it was really it was really exciting to see someone that more closely aligned with how I saw myself in the world um as like a black person specifically. And so I feel very protective of him. And I like perished the thought for how, you know, the the toxic fans will just absolutely lose their minds if we dare touch, you know, a single hair and Neo's head.
00:22:41
Ryan
meanwhile they're all still struggling to see it as like a trans allegory written by two trans women and you know they still think it's all about you know this white man who's well he's not white but you know this man who's gonna save us all like it's right there
00:22:56
Ryan
So let's jump into our topic du jour. We'll be talking about, you know, the Lord of the Rings in general, but more specifically, we just rewatched the two towers.
00:23:08
Ryan
Shauna and I watched it together. Christine, it sounds like you did not have to rewatch it. Did you rewatch it just for fun?
00:23:13
Christine
ah Yes, but you know, I did I definitely didn't have to but I just like to
00:23:15
Ryan
Okay.
00:23:17
Ryan
Yeah, so um what's your origin story with Lord of the Rings? How did it come to be something that you, you know, cared so much about?
00:23:26
Christine
Uh, it was actually kind of crazy because I didn't read the books as a kid. I had no really, uh, touchpoint to the Lord of the Rings series as a child. But in, I want to say the year 2002, which is when two towers came out, my dad decided to, he's a big movie guy and he decided to rent fellowship of the ring from blockbuster.
00:23:47
Christine
And literally, yes, I know relic, uh, relic of the past.
00:23:50
Ryan
yes Just rent from Blockbuster sent me.
00:23:55
Christine
Yup, yup, then we watched it on a little VHS. Anyway, um so we watched it and I was 12 and I remember just being so taken in and maybe that's part of ah the the age that I was and it's like a very impressionable age.
00:24:12
Christine
um And I hadn't really found anything to get super into at that point yet. It was kind of like you're still finding your personality like you're still figuring everything out. So after we watched that movie, I remember just turning to my dad and just being like, I need to see the next one because it kind of leaves off on a cliffhanger. And I knew I'd seen like trailers on TV for the second one. And I was like,
00:24:36
Christine
we need to see it. I need to see it right now. And it was actually out of theaters, most of the theaters except for there was like a $5 theater an hour away that was still doing like midnight showings of it just at like once a week or something.
00:24:51
Christine
And my dad was like, All right, like this weekend we're going like we're just gonna go see this thing.
00:24:55
Shauna (she/her)
But.
00:24:56
Christine
So I we caught one of the last showings of the two towers i ever. And then after that I was hooked like I was fully in I read the books I did all of the my dad was printing me IMDB pages of like movie trivia facts, which is maybe why I love me movie trivia so much.
00:25:15
Christine
ah So yeah,
00:25:16
Ryan
Yeah. So but just like general, and like a curiosity question. So did your dad or like your family, were they very like, did they inspire some of this nerd stuff?
00:25:27
Ryan
Like you said, your dad was a big movie guy and it seems like you're a big movie person.
00:25:29
Christine
yeah Yeah, my dad is a big movie guy mostly to be like up to date on pop culture, I feel. um And he I don't think he anticipated the level of nerdiness that would like nerdy obsession that would come out of this. I think he was just like, this is a big movie. ah You should see it just for you know, to understand the culture around it.
00:25:50
Christine
And when he saw how into it I was, he did kind of feed that a little. Like I said, he was printing IMDB pages full of movie trivia and stuff for me because he saw how much I loved it.
00:25:57
Ryan
Right.
00:26:00
Christine
And we would go and like buy posters at the mall and stuff for Lord of the Rings. um But overall, I think where it went after that was just like my dad was like, I can't compete with you on this level.
00:26:12
Christine
like I support you, but you go do your own thing kind of kind of thing.
00:26:17
Ryan
The students are past the master. Like, all right, nerd.
00:26:18
Christine
That's great.
00:26:21
Ryan
Shauna, what's your origin story with Lord of the Rings?
Shana's Lord of the Rings Journey
00:26:24
Shauna (she/her)
So I had the childhood reading experience. So back at my grade school, we had what was called this accelerated reader program, accelerated reader tests, where we had to take these like computer tests that was like, ask you like comprehension questions, make sure like plot questions, make sure you understood different things, themes, like, you know, and it was like a little trivia.
00:26:29
Ryan
Mm.
00:26:46
Shauna (she/her)
It was it was book trivia was what it really was in practice. And so me being the very nerdy child I was really loved it. And So these books, these big Lord of the Rings books, were worth a lot of points.
00:26:58
Shauna (she/her)
And so I realized I could get like all of my points in by reading these giant books.
00:27:02
Christine
yes
00:27:04
Shauna (she/her)
And so I started in the fourth grade reading The Hobbit. And I was then hooked. I loved it. um My favorite, you know, middle school teacher was my English teacher and so very much encouraged me like she's actually um because she had passed when I was in high school and she's actually the reason why my middle name is Maureen was in honor of my English teacher.
00:27:29
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah, Mrs. Irwin. And so I had this real love of reading and it really, I would then read one every year. So I was like, fellowship in the fifth grade, and then two towers, sixth grade, and then seventh grade was Return of the King. And I tried to read the Silmarillion, but I was like, and it's not as good. And so I then ended up skipping it. And it was like, but so I had to find other books to read, I guess, but.
00:27:51
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah, so I ended up, that was really where my childhood love came in was starting really early and then obviously the movies came out and it was huge and I've always just kind of been really, you know, like I've always kind of found a lot of myself in like a certain kind of like elven, you know, like we had kind of talked while we were watching how I think there's a certain
00:28:09
Ryan
Yeah.
00:28:12
Shauna (she/her)
elegance and almost a like even like all of like the like the men aren't very like masculine like compared to like the other like humans and dwarves when so I always kind of appreciated that like liveness and a certain element there yeah oh my gosh so many
00:28:26
Ryan
It's laughing. Yeah.
00:28:30
Christine
There's so many forehead smooches in Lord of the Rings. It's my favorite part. Between men, between besties. It's so sweet.
00:28:38
Ryan
Yeah, i um you know I feel like I was much more along the lines of Christine where it was just like it was not even really in my um and my consciousness, but some of my gamer friends that I've talked about before, that that group of of guy friends that were sort of like my my basement nerd friends, like We you know played video games together, like we started 7th, 8th grade um into 9th and 10th grade and and that was right around when the Lord of the Rings series started coming out and my friend Jared was like ah obsessed with it. I don't know if he had read the books or anything but he was already like very, very into Lord of the Rings.
00:29:19
Ryan
And so it became this like part of our friend group that I'm pretty sure I saw Two Towers in theaters and maybe Return of the King um just because my friend wanted to. And then we would have like these two-day two-day sleepovers in the summer where we would watch the and we would marathon the entire 10 hours or whatever of those movies. No, what is it? Yeah, I mean, I guess it's probably 10-ish hours. I can only imagine. but um Secretly, I never cared for them. First of all, I don't i don't like period pieces. like I know it's like not real, but like you know I don't like that sort of like middle English, like whatever. that
00:30:03
Ryan
that genre. I've never really liked period pieces. That is the realm of fantasy that is where my sort of nerd dumb deviates. Like, I see it, I get it. It's just not necessarily for me. um I think a lot of it is because like, first of all, there's no girls. Where are all the girls? Why is it only boys? I hate this. I prefer women led anything. So like,
00:30:30
Ryan
all of my friends were getting into Lord of the Rings, and I was like, there's this show Charmed. Have you seen this show Charmed? Because it's just three women doing high kicks and rhyming
Perspectives on Fantasy and Environmentalism
00:30:38
Ryan
spells. Like, that's my shit. um So i never really it never really stuck with me, but because of the friends that I had, it was always just, like, in my consciousness. And so, you know, when we were emailing back and forth, like, I was I'm able to recall that I always really liked the two towers.
00:30:57
Ryan
I thought it was the one that I liked the most out of the three, but also probably because it's the one that I watched the most.
00:31:01
Christine
Thank you.
00:31:04
Ryan
um But Shauna and I watched it together yesterday, most of it, because, you know, it's like a commitment and we're in our 30s and 40s. So like three hours for a movie, please. So long.
00:31:15
Ryan
um And I was, you know, reinvigorated. Like, I was like, okay, this is interesting again. But, you know, it it wears off. It wears off kind of quickly, at least in for me.
00:31:26
Ryan
So I don't see myself picking it back up and like, Oh, now I got watch Return. I'm cool. Like, it was fun to rewatch. But um do you have like specific?
00:31:35
Shauna (she/her)
Not gonna get into War of the Ring like and like you didn't watch Game of Thrones either like
00:31:37
Ryan
No, I'm not gonna watch The Hobbit. Never. Not a second of the Game of Thrones. I'm not going to watch the Rings of Power. like it's It's really no shade to the genre.
00:31:48
Ryan
Part of it is shade to the genre because like one thing that we realized yesterday watching it is it doesn't pass the Bechdel test.
00:31:55
Christine
Mm hmm.
00:31:55
Ryan
There's not a person above the shade of like sickeningly pale, it's just super white, super male, and that just never, neither of those resonated with me, but it resonated with people I cared about.
00:32:00
Christine
No.
00:32:10
Ryan
So I was like, sure, I'll watch this.
00:32:14
Ryan
Christine, do you have any like key memories or anything that you're like, when I think of Lord of the Rings, I think of blank?
00:32:22
Christine
So I feel like obviously the, um I was really into all of the actors and actresses in it.
00:32:24
Ryan
but
00:32:29
Christine
Like I i had a huge crush on Orlando Bloom. I wanted to be Liv Tyler. yeah I wanted to get like Miranda Otto was like, I was like, I want to believe in myself as much as her character does.
00:32:33
Ryan
Yeah.
00:32:40
Christine
um But I think for me a big theme in Lord of the Rings that I don't know gets talked about as much with the movies maybe, but it's, um the theme of the like the environmentalism aspect of it where it's like we're we're turning so much to industry and stuff and burning down all the trees and and things like that and then everything works together to fight back.
00:32:52
Shauna (she/her)
Hmm. Hmm.
00:33:03
Christine
It's like tale as old as time kind of story of course but I love I always love that aspect of it and how Lord of the Rings tells that story but not without making it like a really primary um plot point like you're so focused on the battles and the characters and the lore
00:33:05
Ryan
Sure.
00:33:18
Ryan
Yeah. We like to bloom.
00:33:21
Christine
Yes, um which I love, so yeah.
00:33:23
Shauna (she/her)
it is almost like a hopeful religiousness to it. And I think, you know, something else that I was thinking about in terms of like a childhood, like I was raised Catholic and so J.R.R.
00:33:33
Shauna (she/her)
Tolkien was famously very Catholic and he actually helped convert a contemporary of his, C.S. Lewis, who wrote the Chronicles of Narnia, to become religious. And I remember like being a kid, like that was like for a very long time, my like my historical, if you could be a fly on the wall and hear any conversation,
00:33:52
Shauna (she/her)
I always wanted to hear like the conversations in English pubs between C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien. I always thought that would be such a fascinating like timepiece and like I always thought like but I like that kind of there is a hopefulness to it that I feel like is so much of modern religiousness doesn't tends to be so much harsher so much more austere in a different way and those kinds of themes of saving the world maintaining you know a certain degree of goodness is really kind of lost in a lot of that.
00:34:22
Shauna (she/her)
that you don't find that and there's a disconnect there.
00:34:22
Ryan
yeah
00:34:26
Ryan
What about you, Shana? Do you have any like key memories When, uh, when someone says like, Oh, Lord of the Rings, like what jumps to mind?
00:34:34
Shauna (she/her)
just honestly just bringing me back to that kind of teenage-ness because like you know i was like a junior in high school and two towers came out like that was very much like that era like i remember like playing like playing the two towers xbox game with my cousin because he had just moved yeah he just moved in with me and like you could like play as you know like the different the three main characters and like do like the battle of homes deep and it was like very great graphics for the time it was very cool and like you know like my cousin collected because he was that nerdy white guy who he collected swords and so like he had you know like the giant sword of um like
00:35:03
Ryan
Yes.
00:35:04
Christine
Yeah.
00:35:17
Shauna (she/her)
I think he had Aragorn sword and like I had this like really pretty statue and like of course like thinking back like oh of course the statue I had was of the um the broken Narsil and in front of it like it it was so pretty and like I always liked that like it all like little metal pieces were all broken up and I wonder where that is.
00:35:37
Ryan
when the sword, oh no.
00:35:38
Shauna (she/her)
I'm sure I have a have so many things. Yeah
00:35:42
Ryan
So what is the thing you're talking about though? What is it? You said the seal.
00:35:45
Shauna (she/her)
It's the the the shards of Narsil and Narsil being the sword, like, yeah.
00:35:51
Christine
so It was like the sword that was used to take off Sauron's ring like the ring from Sauron's hand in like the very first battle of the first movie and the the sword broke and they like kept it and it was the Oh my gosh, what is his name?
00:36:08
Christine
Elendial sword. So yeah, I don't know the lore that well of Lord of the Rings I'm more of a movie Lord of the Rings fan, but I know that much at least but then in
00:36:16
Shauna (she/her)
You know the, yeah.
00:36:17
Christine
Yes, the general outlines. And then in the third movie, ah Elrond uses those shards to make a new sword for Aragorn, which is Andoril, the Flame of the West. And that's like the lore of that sword becoming a different sword and then using it to be like or fight in that last battle in the third movie.
00:36:35
Ryan
Nothing. I got nothing. You're like, you know, I don't really know the lore that well. And then, you know, um there was...
00:36:40
Christine
yes yeah
00:36:42
Shauna (she/her)
That is something you would do though, like, about Marvel, like, oh I'm not familiar with this character, I just know these five imported backstory points and then those that brought branch off.
00:36:44
Ryan
Oh, 100%.
00:36:51
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah.
00:36:52
Ryan
absolutely yeah i
00:36:53
Shauna (she/her)
And like thinking about how it's all based on D and&D, like so much of d and like modern D and&D is like I play as I'm going to be playing D and&D later this afternoon actually. And like so much of it, like when we were our friend Ryan, who also goes by Snax, was also with us and like pointed out like, oh, that ranger ability of Aragorn's. But like thinking about how so much of our modern, when we think about the fantasy genre, those foundations were all set in the Lord of the Rings books and movies.
00:37:22
Shauna (she/her)
and it's so foundational and it's very much like you don't realize that it's that all so much what you're seeing is not like that it's that all of that it almost feels trite when you're watching the Lord of the Rings because it has been done and copied so many times that you don't even realize the ways in which it's permeated the collective conscience of our culture I think that's such a just it's everlasting impact in when I think of Lord of the Rings and like the memory is just everything
00:37:52
Ryan
Yeah, coincidentally enough, like the, you know, again, I barely remember, you know, I remember the main character's names. I remember the general plot. What I remember the most is, so I was in gifted language arts, and that when you said accelerated reading test, I was like, that sounds so familiar.
00:38:12
Ryan
And perhaps maybe i I took that as well.
00:38:12
Christine
Me too.
00:38:12
Shauna (she/her)
I.
00:38:15
Ryan
But, you know, the the the gifted programs for what they for what they were, they definitely allowed for kids to explore creativity. and um you know create things in a different way that like wasn't necessarily always encouraged in in um in standard immersion class or whatever the the right name is but.
00:38:36
Ryan
um My friend Jared, who was like the most creative out of all of us, who often used his powers for evil, unfortunately, but um we would have, you know, these sleepovers and just be total nerds. Like in one sleepover, I remember we downloaded the Power Rangers episode forever read, because that's always been my, like one of my core nerd identities is loving Power Rangers.
00:39:01
Ryan
But we filmed an entire like trailer for a parody movie called Lord of the Hats that was using characters from books that we had read throughout the years in English class. So if anyone remembers the the book The Giver, the main character Jonas, um Jonas was our protagonist. He was Frodo.
00:39:26
Ryan
We made a felt character of him. um The main villain was Fishman, ah and he was the pilot like who was flying the plane that crashes in the book Hatchet. And Brian like goes to try to like swim and see what he can find for like um supplies, and he sees this man's face being like eaten by fish or whatever because he's decomposing.
00:39:54
Ryan
um I don't, and like those are the two main things that I remember. um There was this, oh my God, instead of... going invisible, I just remembered this. Instead of going invisible when he put the hat on, um it turned into this dancing panda scene where it was like, we had a we had a literal song, like it's a dancing panda scene and it has nothing to do with the plot. Like it was it was so fucking obscure and creative that like when I think of Lord of the Rings, I actually think of ah Lord of the Heart.
00:40:28
Ryan
ah
00:40:28
Christine
That's actually beautiful. What are the odds that we could get this on the internet at this point in time?
00:40:33
Ryan
no I have no idea because it was filmed on a Handycam, to be clear, like our friend John's dad's Handycam.
00:40:38
Christine
right
00:40:39
Shauna (she/her)
first Of course it was.
00:40:42
Ryan
So it's probably on one of those old, you remember when they tried to like start slimming things down, they made the tiny VHSs that went in the bigger VHS tapes. So first we would need all of those things, including a VCR.
00:40:55
Ryan
um However, ah my friend Anthony, who does listen to this and who is familiar with this and still friends with Jared, Anthony, I might make you see if Jared can can figure that out because like we printed out ah a bunch of sheets of paper, of pictures of orcs, and then just like cut them up and flip them up like um ah like guess who almost died. And we tied string to it and just like set up the camera and pulled the um the the pictures of the orcs so it looked like they were marching to the Battle of Helms Deep like it was so involved and I have no idea what we did with it.
00:41:30
Christine
yeah
00:41:40
Ryan
We showed it in class and everyone was like obsessed with it but we did nothing with it.
00:41:44
Christine
that The level of filmmaking here just feels really high, so.
00:41:49
Ryan
Right, right. And then you know simultaneously we're also like pirating um Forever Red on like Kazaa or LimeWire or whatever peer-to-peer service we were using. um And just like it reignited my love for Power Rangers. So, you know, what ah what a nerdy memory. um But in general, so is fantasy your bag? Christine, like are you into the whole realm?
00:42:15
Christine
I am so I love Lord of the Rings and I love Game of Thrones. Actually, my dog is here with me and her name is Joan Snow. um She is sleeping on the bed right now, but she's a big white dog named Joan Snow.
00:42:24
Ryan
Oh.
00:42:28
Christine
um And just so it's like, yes.
00:42:29
Ryan
Joan Snow? Like Jon Snow?
00:42:32
Shauna (she/her)
I love it.
00:42:33
Christine
Yes, exactly.
00:42:37
Christine
And it was fully because the rescue that we got her from had named her Snow White. And we were like, she responded to snow already. So we were like, how can we make this nerdy?
00:42:45
Shauna (she/her)
oh
00:42:46
Ryan
Yeah.
00:42:47
Christine
And that's how, but um a lot of the time I am drawn to like that kind of old timey like medieval style fantasy. Like um I know that you guys just talked about the Dungeons and Dragons movie.
00:42:59
Christine
um And that was kind of that in that style.
00:42:59
Ryan
Yeah.
00:43:01
Christine
And I really liked that movie maybe because of that and also because of all the other great things about it.
00:43:07
Ryan
yeah
00:43:07
Christine
um But I would say, yeah, yes, it was so much fun.
00:43:08
Shauna (she/her)
Really fun.
00:43:11
Christine
um I would watch more of those if they made them for sure. um but yeah as far as like fantasy goes i i'm open-minded i love uh a lot of other things as well i'm definitely not only into fantasy and i definitely don't know fantasy as deeply as other people do but lord of the rings the movies specifically are like my forever love
00:43:35
Ryan
Yeah, what about you trying to fantasy in general what's arriving Yeah
00:43:39
Shauna (she/her)
I've always been a big fan, like I loved, like I was very into Game of Thrones, like I read all the books, I thought there were gonna be more, maybe, who knows, time will tell. Whatever George RR MR is doing right now, it's not writing, but that's okay.
00:43:54
Ryan
yeah it just um
00:43:54
Shauna (she/her)
But i like I love them so much. They were very like they're very engrossing. like We used to have like watch parties with some of our friends and we used to go through and like it was very much... I love the when media is such a zeitgeist that it's like everybody's in on it, you know?
00:44:13
Shauna (she/her)
It was not only watching with like my nerdy friends on Sunday night, but then going and talking about it with my coworkers the next day in the office. It was though that kind of where it's so, you know, across demographics. And I really, I think that's something where fantasy has always kind of been really an arm's length away from that. And I kind of love seeing that. like But no, I've always, I really like, you know, the Dragon Age games. I think they're very fun. like i Fantasy's cool.
00:44:41
Shauna (she/her)
I think I like space sometimes more, like but also like I feel like I get deeper into like nerdier fantasy than I do like space stuff.
00:44:54
Shauna (she/her)
like If it's like really like big science fiction, like I feel like I get a little more bored actually than I do with fantasy.
00:44:54
Ryan
Sure.
00:45:01
Ryan
Sure. Yeah, um and also a shout out to my friend Anthony, whose dog's name is Hodor. And he's like arguably one of my favorite dogs of all time. He's a giant pity with this huge head and this huge beam.
00:45:14
Ryan
um Yeah, I, you know, like I kind of already said it, but like, fantasy just, it never stuck for me. Like, you know, it was never the thing that would pull my focus. um I, again, I would watch things kind of to be part of the conversation, but then there just came a certain point in time where I just was like, I have other things to watch that will make me happy. So like,
00:45:37
Ryan
You know, when Game of Thrones started and everyone was like being pushy about it, you know, they're like, oh, you love, you know, sci-fi, you like nerd stuff. You would love this. Like, no, my I wouldn't. And then it became like a point of contention where too many people were telling me that I should watch it. And I went full Taurus and like dug my heels and was like, oop well, I'm never going to watch a second of this program because of the fact that everyone's telling me.
00:46:04
Christine
that's That's fair.
00:46:04
Shauna (she/her)
Well, and I think that there's something that we've kind of talked ah about and around, but I can't help but ignore the fact that fantasy is often, especially historically,
00:46:18
Shauna (she/her)
very straight, very white, very male-focused and oriented, in a way that I feel like space and future properties tend to be more expansive, like you can be anything and everything, it's a lot easier to kind of retrofit a certain kind of modern you know aesthetic and sensibility in all the different ways, whereas people throw such a shit fit if you put a person of color in a fictional fantasy world.
Diversity in Fantasy Genres
00:46:44
Shauna (she/her)
and like you saw it in Game of Thrones like in the most recent one where they had the family that you know were so gosh darn cool like i love that they had like the Targaryen white like hair like i thought of it was yeah i thought it was such a cool like but also like but that just really doesn't exist and like you know when like one of the moments when we were watching it like
00:46:44
Ryan
Yeah.
00:46:56
Ryan
yeah.
00:47:08
Shauna (she/her)
the you know Gandalf appears you know with his new name change though really unoriginal just going from Gandalf the Great of Gandalf he's like actually I don't go by Gandalf the Great anymore my name's different it's Gandalf the White and I'm like okay honey you didn't even you could just do a little like change a little something up but you know right you know and then show you know is literally blinds the party blinded by the white and then shows his white horse shadow facts
00:47:20
Ryan
Right. Right. Gone golf or something.
00:47:36
Shauna (she/her)
and you know then and now on the other scene well here we are the black gate of Mordor the land of evil and you know that's historical use of black versus white that black is evil white is good and i think that
00:47:42
Ryan
Right.
00:47:42
Christine
yes
00:47:43
Ryan
Right.
00:47:49
Ryan
Yeah.
00:47:53
Shauna (she/her)
that is so subconsciously informed a lot of nerd culture and why i think there's so much you know prejudice that is even if it's not and it often is on these like very you know surface level there's still that kind of subconscious passive level to it that it feels like you are a usurper if you are anything other than what they're used to.
00:48:13
Ryan
Yeah. Yeah.
00:48:16
Shauna (she/her)
And i I think that's something that, you know, is worth discussing, you know, that I can see where, it you know, it might have had a subconscious effect on you and your enjoyment and love of the genre.
00:48:28
Ryan
Yeah.
00:48:29
Christine
absolutely And this is why I don't like saying I'm a fantasy die-hard person because there's so many implications with that with the fact that there are no women usually and like historically rather and people of color is that's like a huge thing like when Rings of Power came out and there was a black elf and everybody lost their minds and it's the same thing as like Game of Thrones when they were the the or the Valarians, the Black family that were Targaryen blood and all of that. So I just feel like there's a lot of um deep problematic things that can ah be pervasive in fantasy as well.
00:49:06
Ryan
which is kind of what part of the purpose of like this podcast is, is to remind people that like We have a right to these properties. We have a right to enjoy these things and take up the space. like you know We try to be really intentional with you know who we bring on and how we talk about these things because left to their own devices, nerd culture will stay as is. like you know You mentioned like space is a little more expansive, but like people through the exact same fucking hissy fit when John Boyega
00:49:39
Ryan
appeared on screen in Star Wars, like it was the same sentiment. So, you know, I guess maybe before we jump into some of the key points of the Ubi, how do we navigate this as fans? Or maybe since Sean and I have ah talked about this on previous episodes, Christine, how do you how do you navigate it? How do you still find joy when people are seemingly so committed to taking it from you?
00:50:04
Christine
Yeah, I think what you said about reclaiming it and kind of saying that I deserve to be a fan of this and I deserve to also see myself represented, see other people that I love represented in these spaces. And that's not a, um that doesn't mean it's like woke or whatever the the terminology that people use to describe these things is. um That's called progress and that's called bringing fantasy into the modern age. So I think that, yeah, that that's pretty much my my take on it.
00:50:34
Christine
So when they make these moves of like, even if it does seem kind of um like
00:50:39
Ryan
force.
00:50:40
Christine
Yes. Like if they're, if they're making these moves, I'm like, you know what? I support it. That's great. And we'll keep supporting it and we'll keep watching it when they make progress, like, you know, decisions to make progress like this.
00:50:44
Ryan
like
00:50:51
Christine
And I'll just keep, you know, having online battles with people who are making fun of it or pretending like it's not real and it's not canon or something.
00:51:01
Ryan
Yeah.
00:51:01
Shauna (she/her)
Well, you see the biological makeup of elves is very important because they're very real and have a biology to them, despite being fictional characters.
00:51:02
Ryan
Yeah. And I use.
00:51:06
Ryan
Right.
00:51:09
Ryan
Exactly my and ah you know, I say forced like and perhaps that's like maybe a bit of like internalized, you know anti whatever but There are sometimes when it's definitely like Where did these black people come from like all these people are white now right now but they were like there were all those black people back that but like I think that's how the Game of Thrones things is thing is right like the black family is they are What's the opposite of descendants?
00:51:38
Ryan
They came before the modern day Targaryens, right? They're their ancestors.
00:51:42
Shauna (she/her)
yeah because there was like the other the like they came from like the other continent basically and so that was where the Targaryens also came from was then they came over and conquered Westeros absolutely oh most definitely
00:51:42
Christine
Yeah.
00:51:48
Ryan
Got it.
00:51:51
Ryan
Got it.
00:51:51
Christine
Two bloodlines.
00:51:55
Ryan
Oh, so there was some colonization happening, even in fantasy terms.
00:51:58
Christine
Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah, colonization is a huge aspect. Yeah.
00:52:02
Ryan
Yeah, so um let's jump into just like you know kind of and ah talking through maybe the the key points of the two towers.
00:52:10
Christine
Yeah. Actually, can I say a thing just about about representation and like as much as I love the original Lord of the Rings trilogy that came out in the early 2000s.
00:52:12
Ryan
Please.
00:52:13
Shauna (she/her)
Please.
00:52:20
Christine
I think that the way the success that it gained um also paved the way for kind of like that new era of fantasy still being kind of gate kept by white straight men and and I think those decisions were made very intentionally by like Peter Jackson and that whole team who I love because they're so creative and they did such a good job but they made it a point to only cast indigenous or black people as the urukai or the orcs or people yeah that's the only time you see people of color is when they're like the bad guys and the elves could only be like blonde or like
00:52:49
Ryan
Yeah.
00:52:58
Christine
it it was It just set the tone, I think. um And they're trying to undo it now, I think. But i back then, it was there was an opportunity to do more. And I don't think they did that.
00:53:09
Shauna (she/her)
It was very unexamined back then, and because i ah you could absolutely argue those were not intentional decisions.
00:53:16
Ryan
i'll say I'll say it was unexamined by by us because I think there have always been cultural critics who have seen it and been like, yo, what the fuck are you doing?
00:53:17
Shauna (she/her)
why
00:53:25
Christine
Right.
00:53:25
Shauna (she/her)
Well, I'm saying unexamined by the the creators. Like I bet Peter Jackson didn't, this never, these conversations were nowhere on their radar.
00:53:29
Ryan
Oh, sure, sure, sure.
00:53:34
Shauna (she/her)
I would literally like to think because, you know, 20 years ago, it was a different time.
00:53:36
Ryan
Yeah.
00:53:39
Shauna (she/her)
And these questions weren't being, if they were being asked, but they were not being asked with a voice and a microphone to get them heard in the same way as that they are today.
00:53:49
Christine
Thank you.
00:53:52
Shauna (she/her)
And I think that is part of where that change came because the internet and the way that it's really grown has let, you know, Twitter's popularity, where you could actually talk to the creators and voice your perspective and opinion is so much more prevalent now than it was back then. You know, and I think that's such a important part. So even giving, but giving him the benefit of the doubt that still doesn't excuse the fact that it still happens. And I think that's an important part too, but you're right. The very much the
00:54:23
Shauna (she/her)
it really just reinforced itself and then you know a certain kind of you know straight white boy thought oh this is for me what do you mean it's for you how dare you and i think that's how dare you try to take this from me as though you know having you know a black elf in 2024 changes the fact that if you want only white elves
00:54:33
Ryan
Mm-hmm. Right.
00:54:40
Christine
Right.
00:54:49
Shauna (she/her)
this trilogy still exists for you you can just go pop in your dvd stream it on the internet and still watch this it doesn't change your memory and i think that's something i always think about when people get upset at other changes to like moderate like you know like i was a big ninja turtle fan and like people like got really upset that they changed april o'neill like and i was like which is so ridiculous because again
00:54:49
Ryan
Mm-hmm.
00:55:13
Ryan
or when they introduced Venus de Milo.
00:55:16
Shauna (she/her)
rush right? and i was like if you just want like you know do i have a preference for classic yellow jumpsuit april sure she was mine but the fact that that is not the april that my child grew up with does not bother me why would that irk me at all like he doesn't he now enjoys his april who is much cooler and gets to do things and goes on adventures with a slime girl and it's much more fun and like has more to do he has he absolutely has a better apronial and i love that for him like you know he thinks it's weird when he sees dr doc oc from spider-man be a boy with a weird bullcud because his doc oc is a girl with a side shave and i'm like cool love that
00:55:59
Ryan
Yeah. Yeah.
00:56:04
Ryan
Well, I'm also kind of reminded how like, you know, and not even to be like, um, But actually, but like I think about, you know, Tim Burton, who has like explicitly said he just doesn't think you know you know black or brown people fit into the aesthetic of his, his film world.
00:56:25
Ryan
and Honestly, there are so many parts of me I'm like, I'd rather you just say that. i' rather youd I'd rather you just be like, fine, then I don't need to watch Tim Burton movies. I don't need to buy into Tim Burton's, you know, universe. But as the rest of culture continues to evolve and realizes that the fans, and first of all, that the aesthetic is made up,
00:56:46
Ryan
and that there is a huge array of people who very much so will fit that aesthetic. You're just fucking lazy and want to cast a rapist like Johnny Depp and you know keep him up and not anyone else, which you know whole other conversation.
00:57:04
Shauna (she/her)
the definition of prejudice he literally prejudged every single person who is like as being not fitting and like it's such an inherently limited worldview and it's obvious and i think such a he it's so much worse off for it and the fact of the matter is that being able to find yourself even when you don't see yourself represented is so much harder but also makes it
00:57:08
Ryan
Yeah. Yeah.
00:57:12
Christine
Mm hmm.
00:57:21
Ryan
Yeah.
00:57:30
Shauna (she/her)
there is a kind of passion that comes with that I think too because you like you said you had to fight for your phantom in many ways and I think that is wonderful and and terrible but also like there is but the but that's why focusing on you know The only, we've talked about this with problematic media and with problematic, you know, franchises, figureheads, actors, etc.
00:57:55
Shauna (she/her)
I think the only wrong answer is to not think about it at all.
00:58:01
Christine
Mm hmm.
00:58:01
Shauna (she/her)
And to go into it with your head in the sand because it's, we all consume things that are, you know, less that are made.
00:58:09
Ryan
Nothing is applicable under the sun.
00:58:12
Shauna (she/her)
Right, exactly. Everything is questionable. But that isn't a reason to ignore it either.
00:58:19
Ryan
Yeah,
Conversational Focus and Humor
00:58:20
Ryan
so picking back up, instead of talking about the plot, let's just talk about, because it's a three hour movie and there's a lot of plot, um let's just talk about you know some key moments that really stuck out to us.
00:58:33
Ryan
The first of which being that Sean and I like couldn't stop making like dead name jokes about Gandalf the Grey and Gandalf the White, like stop like put some respect on his name.
00:58:43
Ryan
He has told you he wants to be Gandalf the White.
00:58:43
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah.
00:58:46
Shauna (she/her)
Like Grima Wormtong immediately, like if you weren't sure that with a name like Grima Wormtong, he was evil, ah immediately dead names Gandalf to Theoden. And I think that like he's really showing to his audience.
Character Analysis: Villains and Heroes
00:58:57
Shauna (she/her)
That's clearly that was clearly what the directors were intending, I think, clearly.
00:58:57
Christine
Yes.
00:59:00
Christine
And also being, Grahama Wormtongue immediately just being super creepy with women.
00:59:01
Ryan
Yeah.
00:59:04
Christine
Like when, the way he is around Aowin, just like really like the lingering stares and she's obviously uncomfortable. So bad guy all around, you can tell.
00:59:13
Ryan
bad guy all around and also he looks so sickly like obviously again but you know these are like kind of things we know as adults that are used to sort of like evoke imagery like a name like worm tongue is intentional to convey like what type of person this is but it's also just like so gross like you look gross bro like
00:59:13
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah.
00:59:33
Christine
Yeah.
00:59:34
Ryan
you know Everyone's so mad about there being black people in like fantasy. like Be mad that people aren't bathing. Be mad that his hair is greasy. There's much more important things to worry about.
00:59:43
Christine
Yes.
00:59:44
Ryan
Period.
00:59:45
Christine
That man hasn't seen the sun in years. No idea.
00:59:49
Shauna (she/her)
Well, that's all there is to do.
00:59:49
Ryan
Right, right.
00:59:50
Shauna (she/her)
Like, what else are you doing? Just walk outside.
00:59:52
Ryan
like
00:59:53
Christine
Right.
00:59:53
Shauna (she/her)
It's cool.
00:59:53
Ryan
Go outside. um Who are your favorite um characters in the fellowship? Well, who's your favorite fellowship characters and then who's your favorite non-fellowship characters?
01:00:03
Christine
Um, I mean, my favorite fellowship character, it's really tough because I like them all, but As a kid, when I first watched it, Legolas was like my end, like my dream.
01:00:15
Christine
I loved him. I was a 13 year old girl just fully just entranced by everything about him. um As an adult rewatching, Aragorn, incredible.
01:00:22
Ryan
Yeah.
01:00:25
Christine
He's sensitive. He talks about his, his insecurities. He's um doesn't want power, which is always, you know, a green flag. ah um He wants to like run away from responsibility because he thinks it'll corrupt him and he's like so so he's self-aware and also like obviously has the traits of being a great fighter protects all of his loved ones and his friends.
01:00:34
Ryan
Yeah.
01:00:47
Christine
um Also Carl Urban, Aomare, really hot. It didn't like really hit me until I was like an older teenager and then I was like oh wow I like never saw like I was so busy looking at Legolas that I didn't see this other beautiful man.
01:01:01
Christine
um
01:01:01
Shauna (she/her)
I felt about Giles and Buffy. I get it.
01:01:03
Ryan
Oh, please.
01:01:03
Shauna (she/her)
and Yeah.
01:01:04
Christine
It's you, late.
01:01:06
Shauna (she/her)
Mm-hmm.
01:01:06
Ryan
Yeah.
01:01:07
Christine
ah
01:01:07
Ryan
Oh, Carl Urban plays um ah Mother's Milk in... Not Mother's Milk. um What's his name mean?
01:01:12
Christine
ah What is his name? I can't think of his name right now.
01:01:15
Shauna (she/her)
Judge Dredd?
01:01:17
Christine
No, in in The Boys, ah he plays.
01:01:17
Ryan
No. In The Boys.
01:01:19
Shauna (she/her)
Oh. Oh, yes. He's, um... Butcher.
01:01:23
Christine
Yes, Butcher.
01:01:23
Ryan
The buter behind that buter Butcher.
01:01:24
Christine
like Yeah.
01:01:24
Shauna (she/her)
Mm.
01:01:25
Ryan
but Yeah, Butcher, Butcher. Yeah.
01:01:26
Christine
He's great in that too. um And then my last one I have to say is Sam because Sam Wise is, he's like the reason that the whole story was able to come together. He saves Frodo so many times because Frodo has that thing where he's like so innocent and like corruptible and all that.
01:01:41
Christine
And Sam is like his his protector, the person who gets him out of trouble a million times throughout the trilogy.
01:01:45
Ryan
Yeah. Yeah.
01:01:48
Shauna (she/her)
And definitely the like post like homoerotic like there's definitely like the subtext there of like Mr.
01:01:49
Ryan
So then is... Yes.
01:01:53
Christine
Oh yeah.
01:01:54
Shauna (she/her)
Frodo of the like as they have this you know very right like this house is like I'm the gardener but like that like caretaker of his garden Yeah Absolutely
01:01:55
Ryan
So he's the sub.
01:01:58
Christine
Yes.
01:02:04
Ryan
The gardener.
01:02:05
Christine
it Which is beautiful. We love seeing that.
01:02:07
Ryan
Yeah. Love that. So then is Carl Urban's character, I already forgot, Aomir?
01:02:13
Christine
Yes.
01:02:14
Ryan
Is that your favorite non-fellowship character or just the hottest?
01:02:18
Christine
Just the hottest.
01:02:18
Ryan
Because we will come back to that.
01:02:20
Christine
Yeah, just the hottest.
01:02:20
Ryan
We will come back to that.
01:02:20
Christine
We don't learn enough about him in the movies to like really get into his person, and his character, but
01:02:23
Shauna (she/her)
Mm.
01:02:26
Ryan
That's one of the things that I actually said to Shauna when we were watching it. I was like, there's too many people in here. I can't keep track of all of these. There's too many people. And you know she kind of made this the point that like that's what people say about the MCU, except the difference is the MCU is over 20 years. And I'm expect to know all of these people whose names all sound the same. They all look alike. And they're all in one three-hour movie.
01:02:55
Ryan
like
01:02:55
Christine
Yes.
01:02:56
Ryan
Too much. Too much.
01:02:57
Christine
Yeah.
01:02:57
Ryan
I'm overwhelmed. I can't. It's too many people.
01:03:00
Christine
That's totally fair. And like the MCU has the breakouts where everybody has their own franchise or everybody has their own backstory that you can look into if you're interested or you don't know people.
01:03:05
Ryan
Yeah. Exactly. What about you, Shauna? Who's your favorite fellowship, non-fellowship?
01:03:14
Shauna (she/her)
It was also legless. Both the historical, like i was like obviously just an attractive like character, very skilled. i like And i find the I really always find in it the endearing relationship between him and Gimli, where they have this like who like this one-upmanship that is clearly based both in their own internal competitiveness and in their like but like their belief in themselves, but also their belief in their friend.
01:03:43
Shauna (she/her)
and like
01:03:44
Ryan
Mm
01:03:44
Shauna (she/her)
I always think of our friend snacks, but I think of that because i he is always someone who's always very good at things also. And so whenever we are playing either against or with each other, I feel like when we're playing the aforementioned Marvel Rivals, he always comments whenever I win MVP, because there was this period, especially where I was winning MVP a lot when we won.
01:04:07
Shauna (she/her)
And so he was always like, oh, I guess you got it again.
01:04:08
Ryan
-hmm.
01:04:10
Shauna (she/her)
And I was like, I know. you like but you know i feel the same way when we play borg no he doesn't no but I feel the same way when we play board games together because he almost always comes out on top of those.
01:04:13
Ryan
He hates it. No, he doesn't hate it, just name it.
01:04:21
Ryan
Yeah.
01:04:21
Shauna (she/her)
And I always like think I do well in board games, but usually finish second to him frequently.
01:04:26
Ryan
Sure.
01:04:26
Shauna (she/her)
So I always i have a very similar, like but like it's based on respect, but also that element of like, oh, I do want to win.
01:04:34
Ryan
Yeah, yeah.
01:04:34
Shauna (she/her)
And I just i love that kind of you know relationship, and I think it's really fun.
01:04:35
Christine
Uh-huh.
01:04:40
Ryan
So who's your favorite non-fellowship person?
01:04:41
Shauna (she/her)
woo I think ah the witch king of Angler. No, I don't know the the Yeah, it's like the deep cut. No, um I love I always appreciated the ends fun fact based on the Catholic Church because they were a very powerful is supposed to be an an allegory because they were a powerful force that is very slow to change or move or to adapt to the times. And so that was where they were based on that. So I always thought that was kind of neat. And the but I always think that's cool. Like, gosh. Probably. Yeah, I definitely think the wizard. I always want the Wizards Council to get kind of more because like with like the Astari and all that, like, I think that was such a cool
01:05:21
Shauna (she/her)
yeah i think i like an was always like it's hard not to you know
01:05:27
Ryan
Yeah.
01:05:27
Shauna (she/her)
lived liv tyler
01:05:29
Ryan
Sure.
01:05:29
Shauna (she/her)
ah ah well It's hard. Yeah.
01:05:31
Ryan
Yeah.
01:05:32
Shauna (she/her)
No, I like it.
01:05:33
Ryan
I.
01:05:33
Shauna (she/her)
But again, like the fact that like the two women are like, no, I do like these, but like, but that's kind of where it was easy to find the fandom through those characters in many ways.
01:05:41
Ryan
Sure.
01:05:43
Shauna (she/her)
And that because there often isn't a lot of like diversity in that regard. It's like, well, do you, Gladriel is just kind of there and Liv Tyler at least gets to do something.
01:05:53
Shauna (she/her)
Same with Eowyn and like, that's the list.
01:05:58
Ryan
Yeah. I think my favorite fellowship character, again, growing up was probably Orlando Bloom ah because he was cute. And I do love an archer. I've always liked kind of that skill set. And even in games, like I love a projectile fighter. um So I did always like Legolas.
01:06:21
Ryan
um watching it and watching it yesterday and also this morning, because I had to finish it this morning. um you know i The relationship between Sam and Frodo is is definitely endearing. They're arguably from a um
01:06:38
Ryan
general watching perspective like their part is kind of just like oh look at all this walking that they're doing like it's not these huge battles and like you know so they're but like you were saying the nature of their relationship and how definitely gay they are probably I was like that's really sweet it's like it's easy to find the um perhaps the relatable humanity in them
01:06:44
Christine
this
01:07:00
Ryan
Um, because they're both, you know, Frodo's whole thing is this, you know, fight against corruption and also his sort of like willingness at times to give in into it versus, you know, Sam, who is sort of, you know, the moral alignment.
01:07:13
Ryan
Although my favorite non-fellowship character and, um, for the rest of time, I think I'm going to have like emotional feelings is about Smeagol and Gollum.
01:07:20
Christine
Yeah.
01:07:23
Ryan
um watching Frodo betray him and sell him out, I was literally like, don't remember any of these.
01:07:29
Christine
Yeah.
01:07:32
Christine
I know.
01:07:32
Ryan
How could you do that to him? He didn't murder you, you sleep, you tricksy fucking hobbitses. He broke my goddamn heart.
01:07:44
Ryan
I don't really remember what happens next. That's the only, maybe ah I need to find like a supercut of just what happens with Gollum, because I'm invested in him. um I don't think it's good based on the faces he posted.
01:07:56
Christine
right? No, it's it's I can tell you right now he makes like Gollum gets captured and while he's like holding a little fish in his mouth.
01:08:00
Ryan
Please.
01:08:05
Christine
He's so trusting of Frodo.
01:08:05
Ryan
I remember that.
01:08:06
Christine
It's so heartbreaking. It's like a pet like that you're like it's just so sad.
01:08:10
Ryan
Yeah. Yes.
01:08:11
Christine
um And then yeah, the um the men of Gondor take him and beat him up basically ah for information about the ring.
01:08:16
Ryan
Yeah.
01:08:17
Shauna (she/her)
Mm.
01:08:18
Christine
Yeah, it's really bad.
01:08:19
Ryan
Well, so I remember that.
01:08:20
Christine
Yeah. yeah
01:08:21
Ryan
And then Two Towers ends with him, you know, clearly like he's breaking again.
01:08:27
Christine
yes
01:08:27
Ryan
The Gollum personality is is emerging and they're kind of like fighting back and forth about whether or not they're going to hurt him and Smeagol is slowly giving in.
01:08:28
Christine
Yes.
01:08:39
Ryan
And then they say like, we could let her do it. We could let her kill them. Who are they talking about? I don't remember.
01:08:44
Christine
Oh, yeah, we forgot a huge female character in the in the movies. She love the giant spider. That's that's what you're talking about. the The giant spider that lives in the caves above Mordor.
01:08:57
Ryan
I do remember that, I do remember that.
01:08:59
Christine
yeah
01:08:59
Ryan
Female representation is so important.
01:09:02
Christine
Beautiful, so much diversity.
01:09:03
Ryan
I'm so glad.
01:09:04
Christine
yeah
01:09:04
Ryan
Yeah, such diversity, such diversity. um Yeah, something that I actually took note of was like, I am a big animal lover.
01:09:15
Ryan
like a you know I and don't think that's like a wildly You know interesting thing to say about yourself, but like I am the person that's like don't fucking shoot those horses like I watched John Wick ah for the first time and got like three minutes in and had to go to does the dog die dot com only to find out that like the entire fucking premise of the movie is based on this guy's dog getting killed which made it more relatable because when I tell you if anyone if I ever find my dogs like right here um if I ever find the motherfucker that made him so skittish and
01:09:34
Christine
Yeah.
01:09:53
Ryan
Like, you know, whoever hurt him, I'll go, John, where? Oh, swords, guns, my bare hands, taking that motherfucker out. um
01:10:02
Shauna (she/her)
Tosto Fiona deserves everything.
01:10:04
Ryan
Toadstool Fiona, yeah. His full name is Toadstool. ah My former partner's name is Mario, so our first dog was Bowser, and then we got Toad together, and then we split. um I'm always proud of his namesake and his middle name is Fiona because he literally looks like the hippo Fiona from the Cincinnati Zoo. um And perhaps if he decides to stand up, he's laying at my feet, but um which is actually kind of related to what one of the things that I took note of, um, I, when they harm animals in, in, even if they are not real or real looking like an ollie font, like it's clearly supposed to be an elephant, but I'm like, don't hurt them.
01:10:41
Ryan
They didn't do anything. They don't know that they're at war with you guys. Like the bad guys are right up there. Shoot higher, stop shooting at the elephants.
01:10:47
Christine
Yep.
01:10:50
Ryan
And then that also sort of like relates to, you know, Gollum and how he's clearly like in the care of Frodo and he calls him master and like, I know that someone hurt my dog and so like this watching him betray Smeagol I was like really getting choked up because I was like he trusted you and that's very much so how I feel about my relationship with my dog which is like I know that he trusts me and anytime I feel like I've even remotely sort of like done something to scare him or like startle him or whatever I'm like no no no
01:11:11
Christine
yeah
01:11:26
Ryan
Keep trusting me. Like, I promise. I got your back. I love you so much.
01:11:29
Christine
Right.
01:11:29
Ryan
The best. Yeah. Um, and it also reminded me of Buffy because there's the, uh, were you a buff? Are you a Buffy person, Christine?
01:11:37
Christine
Uh, no, I actually kind of missed out on that. I came up a little later after it and I need to go back and kind of rewatch because I want to know and I want to be a Buffy fan.
01:11:47
Ryan
It's never too late. Um, if you want to jump on.
01:11:48
Shauna (she/her)
There's like five, ah four episodes from season one and then just skip right to season two is what I will always say.
01:11:53
Christine
Perfect.
01:11:53
Ryan
No. Okay.
01:11:54
Christine
yeah
01:11:54
Ryan
Hot take. I am rewatching the entire series for the first time, so Buffy is my number one fandom. Like, you know, Buffy and X-Men, but um Buffy is and what actually kind of...anyways, doesn't matter. but um I'm rewatching the whole series for the first time in, I don't even know how long. Like I've always just watched like comfort episodes and bits and pieces or whatever. So I'm rewatching the whole series. Season one, when you're an adult and can like look at it and be like, Oh, this is so campy and silly and stupid. It's like way easier to watch if you don't take it seriously. And you're just like, there's a whole episode where Willow meets an online predator.
01:12:37
Ryan
because it's the it was like the mid-90s, so like online predators were you know very
Fantasy in Modern Settings
01:12:43
Ryan
relevant. I mean, they still are, but um that is literally like a demon trapped in a computer, and like he catfishes her, and like then it's this giant computer demon, and it's just so bad and so tacky, and the way that they talk about the internet, you're like, what the fuck is this?
01:12:59
Shauna (she/her)
Well, and then like his teacher the teacher being a techno pagan.
01:13:00
Ryan
so
01:13:04
Ryan
a techno pagan, correct? Like it's just, you're you're in for a ride, so I really hope you do choose to watch it, but...
01:13:06
Shauna (she/her)
Yum.
01:13:10
Shauna (she/her)
Especially because it's so fancy. I think it's very fantasy adjacent because it has so much like and I love that kind of where fantasy creatures are put in a modern setting. And I think there's some I love like like Hellboy I feel is like very much like that where it has that kind of mythological modern mythology and majority meat and I think Buffy is a really wonderful like so much of it really does hold up I think you would really dig it honestly
01:13:32
Ryan
yeah
01:13:39
Ryan
man um The other thing, oh, Turakan. So, Orakai is the name of the, like, orc monsters. And in season seven, we're introduced to Turakan, which is, like, grotesque uber vampire. And the creator of Buffy was definitely a huge nerd, and I just put together for the first time, like, oh, I think that was probably, they were probably inspired by, you know, he was probably inspired by Lord of the Rings, too.
01:14:05
Christine
That makes sense.
01:14:06
Ryan
um Okay, other key parts that we took notes on. um Anytime I see a team ah gearing up, it is basically like the straight male version of a girls getting ready montage.
01:14:20
Ryan
And we they were like putting on their swords and I was like, ooh.
01:14:24
Christine
like Buckling their little, yeah, buckling their shields on. You're just like, yeah, I love that.
01:14:28
Ryan
Yes, girl.
01:14:29
Christine
Yes.
01:14:31
Ryan
all of a sudden Legos is like, can I borrow your foundation? like they're you know they're definitely They're definitely really printing to go to go to battle.
01:14:33
Christine
but You would do that. Yes.
01:14:40
Ryan
So like
Personal Stories and Symbolism
01:14:40
Ryan
now all this time later, um is there anything that has stuck out? like You definitely talk about the environmentalism of it all. um Are there things that have stuck out from you for you like all these years later where you're still like, that was so powerful to see it or to watch it or experience it?
01:14:59
Christine
I think when I rewatched it this most recent time, what really hit me was the Theoden's story arc which is basically where he's under a spell for decades and when he wakes up he realizes that his son has died um and that he never really got to say goodbye or have that kind of ah that kind of bond as an adult with his son and I thought it kind of hit me
01:15:09
Ryan
Mm hmm.
01:15:26
Christine
watching it that this is kind of maybe like an allegory for I don't know, like, depress like depression or something where you just like can't connect with people. And then when you finally can and you break out of it, it's too late. um And then he has that like heartbreaking line that always gets me where he says no parents have to bury their child and it just like Hits in a very human way that doesn't have anything to do with the fantasy of it all It's just like a father and his son and ah as like a like I'm not a parent But I just can like just empathize with that emotion in that scene.
01:15:44
Shauna (she/her)
Mm.
01:15:57
Christine
I think like that character becomes a lot more tragic um and Watching as an adult and with that context
01:16:04
Ryan
Yeah, um, it's it's interesting because you also you, as you were saying that it, it also sort of, I think for um those of us who are in like frayed relationships with our parents or family members where We've chosen to distance ourselves because of, you know, the actions or beliefs or whatever of the people that care for us. And I'm, you know, kind of in this point with my dad, like over the past few years, we've come much closer and like, I'm really grateful for the relationship that we have. And we had this conversation a couple of weeks ago where I finally was able to start sharing some things that I was like,
01:16:41
Ryan
yes dad how you participate in politics does impact our relationship and like literally it was i'm like making this connection of like this spell you know kind of being drawn off of him where he was really hearing me for the first time and like how that was able to.
01:16:59
Ryan
create just like the next level of our relationship and it is you know sort of like allegorical like I'm so grateful that you know I lost my mom in January of 22 and you know we never fixed our relationship really like to be able to repair that relationship and realize that he is probably just as grateful as I am to be working towards something and then seeing that from that lens of the king who like, I didn't break, I didn't get to say goodbye, I didn't get to repair or whatever, you know.
01:17:30
Ryan
um That stuck out for me in a ah different way literally just now than even when I was watching it. Thanks for thanks for sharing that, that's beautiful. What about you, Shauna?
01:17:40
Shauna (she/her)
I mean I kind of hey honestly I think that the biggest thing that stuck out for me like I the the relationship of like
01:17:40
Ryan
Anything that stuck out all these years later?
01:17:51
Shauna (she/her)
seeing Gollum and really fighting his internal demon that is like himself and like really like the desire to do better the but yet falling into bad habits and that like but yet still getting betrayed and it's still not being even though he's changed so much still feeling like it wasn't good enough and I feel like that was such a that story really hit me in a very like symbolic allegorical way that i don't know that i really like saw it in that same way in when i was first watching it and definitely now years later i see that kind of fight in a different with through a different lens
01:18:31
Ryan
Yeah, I took note of the the the scene where he's captured, or no, it's actually before he's captured, before Frodo betrays him, when, you know, Smeagol sort of wins, like the two personalities are arguing and Smeagol is successful and Gollum leaves, but he doesn't come back again until he is betrayed by Frodo and Gollum's like, told you bitch, like he's gonna betray you. That scene of them
Battle of Helm's Deep and Themes
01:18:55
Ryan
like um having conflict and then Gollum essentially being leaving and Smeagol taking control, like I don't remember it being that deep when i was when I watched it when I was a teenager. And I was watching it again sort of like some from that perspective, Trona, just like,
01:19:11
Ryan
Man, he's literally fighting his demons, like his internal demons to try to do the right thing.
01:19:15
Shauna (she/her)
Mm hmm.
01:19:16
Ryan
And it was it was really beautiful to see again. But um for me, the Battle of Helm's Deep, i i don't remember like I barely remember anything about, you know, watching the movies, like I said, like it was kind of like seeing it again for the first time.
01:19:32
Ryan
But the first time they mentioned Helm's Deep um in this movie when they were evacuating the the townspeople and they're like, hurry right up and get the Helm's Deep. it like brought this flood of memories back of like how many times we watched the Battle of Helm's Deep like over and over again and like filming the lord of the the Lord of the Hats and like you know Helm's Deep being sort of part of our cinematography with like pulling the the orc pull the orc printouts and watching my friend Jared play
01:20:04
Ryan
uh two towers on playstation 2 and the battle of helms deep i was just like oh my god you can do this in video games it's so cool like it it really was sort of this like um uh i don't know like moment of of a cinematic moment that has stuck with me all these years later that as soon as i heard that again i was like I forgot how cool this was.
01:20:29
Ryan
the battle and The Battle of Helm's Deep is really, really cool. it should That's all that Two Towers should be.
01:20:34
Christine
Yeah.
01:20:34
Ryan
Just about. Yeah.
01:20:35
Christine
And I will say that's the best battle I think in the whole trilogy in my opinion, because there's so much, this they set the stakes so well and they set the expectation of how outnumbered they are.
01:20:38
Ryan
yeah
01:20:46
Christine
Like it's just very specific. And then the way it's filmed, it's like gritty, there's rain, everybody's just like covered in blood and mud and everything.
01:20:50
Ryan
Yeah.
01:20:53
Christine
And it's just, it feels so visceral compared to the other battles in the movie, especially like in the next movie, it's just like huge epic battles, but just like,
01:21:05
Christine
I don't know. that it And obviously the stakes are still high, but it doesn't feel as like you're in the, you know, in it with them as as the old Helm Steep does.
01:21:12
Shauna (she/her)
yeah yeah
01:21:15
Shauna (she/her)
um The way that they portrayed it to where Gandalf was like, yeah, so it worked before, but that doesn't mean it's going to work now. This is a really bad idea. And like, you know, holding ourselves up here is a mistake as we're just going to be like, and I thought that was a really interesting perspective too, that like, by all accounts, it should have just been, you know, like Aragorn, like, having this conversation in Elvin, you know, so with Legolas, and then, you know, screaming the punchline in English, like, was such a, I thought, an interesting too, like, before, you know, the elves showing up fashionably late as always.
01:21:48
Christine
Of course.
01:21:52
Ryan
like Like the femmes they are. um the The one thing before we before we maybe close out is there's a the lines that kind of close out the the movie, the dialogue between Samwise and Frodo. Samwise has this quote. It's like the great stories of Mr. Frodo, the ones that really mattered, full of darkness and danger they were. And sometimes you didn't want to know the end, because how could the end be happy? How could the world go back to the way it was when so much bad has happened? But in the end, it's only a passing thing this shadow. Even darkness must pass. A new day will come, and when the sun shines, it'll shine out clearer. I know now folks in those stories had lots of chances of turning back, only they didn't. They kept going because they were holding on to something. That there's some good in this world, Mr. Frodo, and it's worth fighting for.
01:22:39
Christine
but I quote that um pretty regularly, not like in person, but like it's like a quote that I have shared a lot of times. And I always get like a little emotional during that part because it's also the montage where they're like winning the battle and like good triumphing over evil.
01:22:47
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah.
01:22:55
Christine
And it's like wrapping up the whole movie. And I think they just did it so well. And that speech really speaks to a lot. I feel like it can apply to a lot of things um and still be still be relevant to to a lot.
01:23:08
Christine
today too.
01:23:10
Ryan
I mean, I fully was like, I heard him say the first part and I was admittedly like multitasking and I was like on my phone and taking notes and blah, blah, blah. And I like had to pause it and go back and listen because it's also like, um after Sam Wise has sort of like brought Frodo back from the brink of of like almost giving in, like there's a super gay moment where he says, it's your Sam, like, okay girls, we got it, you love each other.
01:23:35
Christine
Yeah. Yeah, it's like holding his face like it's me it's your sound like that's beautiful.
01:23:40
Ryan
Right. Like kiss, kiss. But and yeah, yeah.
01:23:45
Shauna (she/her)
True loves kiss, true loves kiss, like y'all are.
01:23:46
Christine
Yeah. for me
01:23:48
Ryan
So I like rewound it and then just remember that I could go and like Google the quote, but it stuck out. I was like, that is literally, you know, that's, that's what you take from stories like this specifically.
01:23:59
Ryan
Obviously it's very like tongue in cheek that, you know, all these times the fellowship doesn't give up and specifically Frodo, like, There's there's a lot there, but then also right now, like hearing that when things feel so fucking dark and we are on you know the precipice of what we know will be you know another seemingly dark time.
01:24:21
Ryan
um
Resistance and Representation in Media
01:24:22
Ryan
As much as I want to say, like, fuck it, I'm gonna hold up with my friends and only focus on the happy, like, that's just not how we will survive. Like, you know, joy is resistance, happiness is resistance, existence is resistance, but like, we also have to, you know, be ready to go to the Battle of Helm's Deep and like kick ladders down and shit because We have to protect ourselves and you know as three people who are not represented in that movie or that franchise in any real way to also be like, yeah, I guess we're still going to fucking show up despite how much you don't want us there. We're still going to show up and we're still going to fucking win this battle. um And
Music Scores and New Zealand Anecdotes
01:25:06
Ryan
I really didn't mean for it to get so inspirational here at the end, but.
01:25:10
Ryan
It is, you know, I guess one of the beautiful parts of Lord of the Rings is like there's the score. That is the one thing that i I forgot to mention. The Lord of the Rings score is what got me into movie scores.
01:25:24
Ryan
Like the dun dun dun, like on CDs, I would burn it on CDs.
01:25:26
Christine
Yeah.
01:25:29
Ryan
Like I learned to drive to the Lord of the Rings, school like it was so good, thanks to the composer.
01:25:34
Christine
i Yeah, Howard Shore was the composer and he was so good. um I have a little anecdote. We went to New Zealand for the first time last year, my husband and I, and we were, I was driving, I was driving us all over the place.
01:25:43
Ryan
Apu.
01:25:47
Christine
We just like literally just drove around both of the islands. And the entire time I was driving, I insisted on only playing the Lord of the Rings soundtrack. and telling like narrating the movie basically to him and I think like he loves it and he loves me but at some point he was like there was a certain moment probably like a week in where he was like I just need to listen to something else for a second I love you so much but um I can't do this right now I was like your I believe it right
01:26:12
Shauna (she/her)
and
01:26:16
Ryan
You don't want to listen to Gollum's song? Like, you don't want to listen over and over again?
01:26:20
Shauna (she/her)
but this is where the yeah
01:26:22
Ryan
Like, come on.
01:26:23
Christine
you Right. yeah yep Yes, very much so.
01:26:25
Ryan
That's so funny. Is he, um, is your, is your husband a nerd too?
01:26:30
Christine
Yes.
01:26:30
Ryan
Got it.
01:26:31
Christine
It's one of the things we bonded over early on in our relationship and continue to.
01:26:31
Ryan
Yeah.
01:26:34
Ryan
Love it. Yeah, so um the way that we typically you know end up the show, we talk about just anything that's coming up that we're excited about related to the topic. Are there any new like fantasy media things that are exciting?
01:26:52
Christine
So I am a little bit behind like I have watched the first season of Rings of Power. I haven't watched the second season.
01:26:58
Shauna (she/her)
same oh yeah
01:26:59
Christine
Yes, I and I i didn't hate the first season. I liked the last like, I i liked two episodes out of the eight, I will say. um So I wasn't like super intrigued necessarily for the second season, but we'll see.
01:27:12
Christine
um I'm still going to catch up. um And that movie just came out, War of the Rohirrim. It was like an anime style Lord of the Rings movie.
01:27:24
Christine
I haven't watched it mostly because I'm not, I don't know. I didn't see the, I'm not a big anime fan, not that I don't like it, but I just like am not into it.
01:27:32
Ryan
and
01:27:34
Christine
So I was just kind of like, this doesn't feel like Lord of the Rings to me, um but I'll, I'm hoping to, so all of my things are just catching up on existing things that have already happened, unfortunately.
01:27:35
Ryan
same
01:27:35
Shauna (she/her)
thing.
01:27:44
Christine
I haven't really, yeah.
01:27:46
Ryan
So catch up question. Have you ever watched the X-Men anime?
01:27:51
Christine
No, I haven't. What's the X-Men anime?
01:27:54
Ryan
Oh, it's on, I think it is it might still be on Netflix. That's how I watched it.
01:27:58
Christine
Yeah.
01:27:58
Ryan
um It is, It's an X-Men cartoon series that I think was created in Japan, and it's like anime styling. um A lot of it has to do with the Dark excuse me the dark Phoenix saga. I don't remember the plot, but like there is, um Gene is like kind of a central figure as the Dark Phoenix, and I think it's like one of those jumps around in time plots. Again, I only ever watched it you know once and however many years ago. So if it's still on Netflix,
01:28:30
Ryan
It just, if I felt similarly where I was like, this isn't X-Men, this is anime with X-Men characters.
01:28:35
Christine
Yeah.
01:28:36
Ryan
um The only bonus is you get armor, the the character armor from the comics. Is that her name? Armor?
01:28:42
Shauna (she/her)
That sounds right.
01:28:43
Ryan
Her mutant ability is that she makes that big pink um body shield.
01:28:47
Shauna (she/her)
Armor.
01:28:48
Ryan
Is it?
01:28:49
Shauna (she/her)
That sounds right.
01:28:49
Ryan
Okay, um yeah.
01:28:51
Shauna (she/her)
This is why we need Ryan to be our leg.
01:28:52
Ryan
Yeah, armor, X-Men.
01:28:52
Christine
no if
01:28:55
Ryan
but Producer yeah. Yes. She is a Japanese mutant enrolled. What's her name? Hisako is her name um Okay, so Anything you want to plug anything interesting that we have coming up anything to share?
01:29:02
Christine
Okay.
01:29:12
Christine
Um, no, I just, uh, I'm on social media as order nerdy. So I thought that
Dodgeball and Nerdy Media Love
01:29:17
Christine
was funny for the title of this.
01:29:18
Ryan
Love it
01:29:19
Christine
ah Um, but no, I, I just, my whole life is just dodgeball and catching up on all of the nerdy media that's out. So I'll continue doing that.
01:29:29
Ryan
Wow, how relatable. Shauna, you're no longer on this show anymore. Christine's taking her place.
01:29:35
Christine
excuse
01:29:35
Ryan
Thanks so much. My new dodgeball nerd bestie has arrived.
01:29:39
Christine
Perfect.
01:29:39
Shauna (she/her)
right like hey there's always room for more dodgeball nerds that's the way I think of it
01:29:42
Christine
Yes.
01:29:43
Ryan
yeah Yes, yes.
01:29:44
Christine
That's so right.
01:29:46
Ryan
So the most important question of real hot nerd shit, because um as three super hot people, we are a reminder that nerds are not all you know sweaty boys in basements um and we're hot. So who is the hottest character in Lord of the Rings? And then if you have one, is there another particularly hot character in fantasy media?
01:30:14
Christine
Yeah, I'm gonna have to stick with Aragorn for my Lord of the Rings hot character because of all the things I mentioned earlier. ah And yeah, it's he's great.
01:30:22
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah.
01:30:22
Ryan
Yeah.
01:30:25
Christine
um We just we love us like a man who's in touch with his emotions, and also can acknowledge his flaws and ah is has other male friends as they like at so much there's so much to him.
01:30:37
Christine
I love him. um And Um, across fantasy. Oh, I would really have to dig deep on this one.
01:30:46
Christine
And I, I would still probably go back to Lord of the Rings.
01:30:46
Ryan
Yeah.
01:30:49
Christine
Honestly, I don't know that there's, um, another franchise that I'm like, as well versed in. So yeah, Aragorn's my answer just all around, I think.
01:31:00
Christine
Um, and also hemp specifically hemp with Arwen.
01:31:00
Ryan
What's the good name?
01:31:02
Christine
I think they're
Queer Representation and Fantasy Crushes
01:31:03
Christine
just like, but like, they make me so happy that couple and yeah, I, they're great.
01:31:06
Shauna (she/her)
you.
01:31:09
Ryan
Yeah. Shauna, who's yours?
01:31:12
Shauna (she/her)
I'm gonna stick with Legolas. I think Legolas is my- the hottest one. I think I'm gonna go with like the teenage crush like just the hot elf.
01:31:19
Ryan
Yeah, teenage Shauna is glad to be able to say it out loud.
01:31:21
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah.
01:31:22
Christine
Yeah.
01:31:23
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah.
01:31:23
Christine
And never forget to Legolas and Gimli chose to go into the Undying Lands together.
01:31:24
Shauna (she/her)
And with that-
01:31:29
Christine
They like didn't get married or do other things. They literally just were together for the rest of their lives and then sailed off into the sunset together. And I think that's beautiful.
01:31:38
Shauna (she/her)
I'm sure very heteronormatively, just as pure friends as they do.
01:31:38
Ryan
Cute.
01:31:39
Christine
Yeah.
01:31:40
Ryan
Very, yeah, yeah.
01:31:42
Christine
They were roomies.
01:31:42
Ryan
Especially after in, yeah.
01:31:43
Shauna (she/her)
They were room they forever roommates, yeah.
01:31:45
Christine
Yeah.
01:31:45
Shauna (she/her)
that is the
01:31:47
Ryan
um In the in the movie they were talking about how there's no there like people think there's no female dwarves and ah Like how even the women are like, you know bearded and people mistake them for men and it's like say it Gimli like you love the femininity of Legolas and you want to be with him I'm gonna go with Liv Tyler.
01:32:09
Ryan
I think Liv Tyler is the hottest one. That's Arwen, right?
01:32:12
Christine
Yes.
01:32:12
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah,
01:32:14
Ryan
I to me and she's definitely quick sidebar. Sean and I were talking about how sapphic Liv Tyler is. like She's gotta at least be bisexual.
01:32:22
Christine
Yeah.
01:32:22
Ryan
I need her to be a little queer because she's just too pretty.
01:32:26
Shauna (she/her)
she plays a lesbian in the show harlots if I don't know if you've ever seen it and it's a
01:32:29
Ryan
Right, right, right, right.
01:32:30
Christine
i got
01:32:31
Shauna (she/her)
Okay, so it's a show about a um a brothel in England, and it's very good. it was on It was on Hulu for a very long time, and it's like about like these rival brothel owners, and it's like a show about women in this time period.
01:32:47
Shauna (she/her)
It's very fascinating and very funny. And Liv Tyler shows up as like this like noble who's secretly gay and like has like an... It's really good.
01:32:55
Ryan
I know how Pham Kajansen shows up in How to Get Away with Murder as Annalise Keating's like, surprise, Annalise Keating used to fuck women
01:32:56
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah.
01:33:08
Christine
yeah
01:33:08
Ryan
And this is her ex-girlfriend and you're like, ah, yeah, Funka Janssen has hardcore, like, dom-saffic vibes.
01:33:14
Christine
ye
01:33:16
Ryan
Like, she's turning it out.
01:33:16
Shauna (she/her)
I said here for him
01:33:18
Christine
And I'm into it, we're into it.
01:33:18
Ryan
Yeah.
01:33:20
Christine
Also, Sean, did I cut you off when you were giving like a larger fantasy crush?
01:33:20
Ryan
We're into it.
01:33:24
Christine
I couldn't, sorry, if I didn't.
01:33:25
Ryan
Oh, yeah, sorry.
01:33:25
Shauna (she/her)
Oh, I was, oh no guys, you're fine. I had my larger fantasy crush. I would say the character Iron Bull voice voiced by Mr. Buffy himself, Freddie Prinze Jr. He's in Dragon Age Inquisition and he's this giant, the he's the they're called the Kunari and they're like large and have like these big horns and he has a goatee eye patch and he just has a great personality and is very like, his like player romance is really, it's It's wonderful.
01:33:55
Shauna (she/her)
Definitely check out Iron Bull, Dragon Age Inquisition.
01:33:58
Ryan
Yeah.
01:33:59
Shauna (she/her)
That's my, that's my guess. My vote.
01:34:02
Ryan
Yeah. um I think my larger fantasy crush would be, who's the Tiefling that I said I really liked from Baldur's Gate?
01:34:10
Shauna (she/her)
Oh, Karlok.
01:34:11
Ryan
Is that? No, the femme one that you played as.
01:34:16
Shauna (she/her)
Oh, my character, the...
01:34:18
Ryan
Maybe it maybe isn't the t the maybe it's just Tieflings in
01:34:20
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah, I think it was just my character.
Closing Remarks and Gratitude
01:34:21
Ryan
general.
01:34:22
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah, yeah.
01:34:22
Ryan
Oh, it turns out I think your character's super hot. Boy, do I have to go for you.
01:34:25
Shauna (she/her)
that's true she was very high like it was a good that was the the period where we played balderskate yeah that was a yeah ah share your social out there
01:34:27
Ryan
Yeah, and or very briefly, for me at least, not my thing. Okay, thank you Christine so much for joining us.
01:34:38
Ryan
I will make sure to put your social in the description, not your social security number, your social social media handle, both.
01:34:44
Christine
Oh.
01:34:47
Ryan
Yeah. ah And you can check us out at realhotnerdpod on Instagram and Facebook. ah And yeah, thanks for joining.
01:34:58
Ryan
We will see you next time.
01:34:59
Shauna (she/her)
ahify yeah
01:35:01
Christine
Thanks for having me.
01:35:01
Ryan
Thanks for having me.
01:35:21
Shauna (she/her)
Spotify, yeah.