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Real Hot Nerd Shorts: Heated Rivalry with Tommy
28 Plays18 days ago
Oh look, a bonus short episode about Heated Rivalry! Join Ryan and our special guest Hot Nerd, Tommy, as they talk about the impact of the hit gay hockey show and how it paralleled their own young love story.
Follow the show on Instagram @realhotnerdpod and follow our hosts on BlueSky and Threads at @hellinpastels and @intuitiveblerd.
Opinions shared by the hosts and/or guests of Real Hot Nerd Shit are their own and do not represent any workplace or organization with whom they may or may not be affiliated now or in the future.
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Transcript
Introduction to Real Hot Nerd Shorts
00:00:01
Ryan
Welcome to Real Hot Nerd Shorts, some bite-sized hot takes from your favorite hot nerds. I'm your host,
Heated Rivalry: A Canadian Gem?
00:00:09
Ryan
Ryan. Today, we're here to talk about the greatest the greatest Canadian export since Celine Dion, Heated Rivalry.
00:00:18
Ryan
And my special guest hot nerd is um one of my best friends of like 20 years, 10 of those, I hated you. um Everybody welcome Tommy.
00:00:31
Ryan
Hi, Tommy.
00:00:31
Tommy Marzella
Hi, you Ryan.
Nerdy Banter: Toad and Toys
00:00:35
Ryan
Yes, bitch, I have ah an applause sound.
00:00:38
Tommy Marzella
i love clips.
00:00:39
Ryan
Okay.
00:00:40
Tommy Marzella
like audio clips
00:00:42
Ryan
So, um of course, as soon as we start recording, Toad starts chewing on a squeak toy. um We were joking before i pressed record that um you're not particularly nerdy about anything. Like you don't really have like a hyper fixation on anything.
First Impressions of Charmed
00:00:59
Ryan
um However, you did just start watching Charmed for the first time.
00:01:03
Ryan
Where are you? What has your general thought been?
00:01:07
Tommy Marzella
um I love it. So first of all, like, I like totally forgot that episodes used to be like 60 minutes and like seasons were like 25 episodes.
00:01:19
Tommy Marzella
So that's pretty incredible.
00:01:19
Ryan
correct
00:01:21
Tommy Marzella
um
00:01:21
Ryan
Yeah.
00:01:21
Tommy Marzella
I just finished season one you know, so I feel like now I know like, you know, you know, Piper and Prue and the other, who's the other one, help me out.
00:01:31
Ryan
I was going to say, can you keep their names straight yet?
00:01:34
Tommy Marzella
Not totally. I feel like we've got Piper, we've got Prue. know their last name's Hollywell, and there's another one in that movie.
00:01:40
Ryan
Phoebe is the is the middle sister, played by Liz Milano.
00:01:43
Tommy Marzella
Yeah. And i don't i mean, I like
Charmed: Dynamic Episodes Discussion
00:01:45
Tommy Marzella
it, right? It's it's interesting because it's I feel like every, as as we have talked about before, every episode sort of follows this like same dynamic, but you can just kind of like start it and pick it up everywhere. But then there's kind of these like ongoing themes, and then you know one character just got killed off at the first the end of the first season.
00:02:04
Tommy Marzella
can i
00:02:04
Ryan
RIP Andy.
00:02:05
Tommy Marzella
Can I spoil that or am I like 20 years too late?
00:02:08
Ryan
Well, babe, it's like, yeah, it's like you're like over 25 years late. The first episode aired in like 1999. Yeah. Yeah.
00:02:14
Tommy Marzella
Oh, wow, really? So anyways, that's been great. I'm watching it on TV.
00:02:17
Ryan
yeah Who's your favorite and which power would you have? I already know the answer,
Power Preferences and Character Identification
00:02:22
Ryan
but for the record.
00:02:24
Tommy Marzella
i I mean, i feel like, I actually really feel like i love, oh my God, Piper, is that the one?
00:02:35
Ryan
one that can freeze time.
00:02:36
Tommy Marzella
I love Piper, but I don't know that I would want her. Her power is really cool, but I feel like I would actually want the premonition power just because it's it's kind of fun. 100%.
00:02:47
Ryan
That's kind of what I had a feeling you would say specifically about premonition, but I feel like you would most personality identify with Prue, especially because she's the oldest of three siblings.
00:02:52
Tommy Marzella
I mean,
00:02:59
Tommy Marzella
ah one hundred percent yeah i mean I like that
00:03:01
Ryan
And you're a cold hearted bitch.
00:03:03
Tommy Marzella
I like that fast forward where she owns like, she's like, you know, they went 10 years into the future and she's like, you know, Buckwell's but or Buckland's and every like, every time.
00:03:08
Ryan
Yes.
00:03:11
Ryan
Yes. Good job.
00:03:13
Tommy Marzella
So I'm like, yeah, great. Fantastic. Way to go.
00:03:16
Ryan
um she also the gag of that all is that that like flash forward was like the year 2008 so that's what they thought 2008 was gonna be like
00:03:27
Tommy Marzella
I was hearing and she owns tons of them.
00:03:32
Ryan
uh she's actually dead shannon doherty died
00:03:35
Tommy Marzella
I did hear about that and now you make me feel mad.
00:03:40
Ryan
I need to look up her sign, but I feel like the character of Prue is absolutely a Scorpio. um However, what do you know about the future of Charmed? Like, what do you
Heated Rivalry: Audience Connection
00:03:49
Ryan
know? do Do you know anything?
00:03:51
Tommy Marzella
I mean, i I know that like there was some beef between um Shannon Doherty and Melissa Milano. Did I? Yeah, right.
00:03:59
Ryan
Yes, correct.
00:03:59
Tommy Marzella
and So I think that like some characters swap out or whatever. And so that's gonna I feel like that's kind of going to be a bummer to me. But I don't really know anything.
00:04:09
Ryan
Yeah.
00:04:10
Tommy Marzella
I mean, I know it went on for like eight or nine seasons. And so I feel like I've got a long time ahead of me. But I've kind of been watching an episode of it.
00:04:16
Ryan
You do. So, um yeah, I think that's a fair summation and and and ah a good point that there are a lot of episodes. I will tell you there are quite a few stinkers. There's a lot of filler. um In my opinion, they don't really find their footing until, like, the middle of season two. Like, I thought it was interesting that you said there's, like, through lines because there's, there's like, no real through lines. Like, every episode is self-contained, which is what Aaron Spelling wanted it to be.
00:04:48
Ryan
um and I think I maybe said this to you, but like, he was so neurotic about um people being able to pick up the show at any given point and find out what's going on that he would not let them change their hair.
00:05:04
Ryan
So that's why like every episode of season one, their hair looks exactly the same, but they do start, except in the future.
00:05:10
Tommy Marzella
except in the future when her hair is blonde and she's got some curls and Piper has some curls and Phoebe's just sitting there waiting to be executed.
00:05:13
Ryan
Yes.
00:05:16
Ryan
Yes. sir
00:05:19
Ryan
With really greasy hair.
00:05:21
Tommy Marzella
Yeah.
00:05:21
Ryan
um Okay, so before we get down that rabbit hole, let's, well, I, or rather, I'm excited that you are joining the Charmed family. Maybe one day you will watch all of Buffy and ah you'll you'll join me in the in the favored view.
00:05:36
Tommy Marzella
That's like the vampire one.
00:05:38
Ryan
Shut up, you're so annoying. So um we're here to talk about Heated Rivalry. um How did you hear about Heated Rivalry and what has been your overall response to it?
00:05:50
Tommy Marzella
I think I heard about it just, I mean, probably through social media and friends, if I'm being honest. And so I was like, immediately like, I have to, you know, pick up on this. And I think my immediate response is, I love this show and I love it right now.
00:06:05
Tommy Marzella
i Because I, ah you know, i think probably the last like gay thing that I watched was Boots, which was canceled. And, you know, then my my thought process is like,
00:06:13
Ryan
Yes. true
00:06:17
Tommy Marzella
I just love everything that's gay and queer. And I love like how it starts out and how it's it's basically like extremely gay, right? Like you're watching
Inclusivity in Heated Rivalry
00:06:26
Tommy Marzella
like pretty pretty sexual moments in the beginning.
00:06:30
Ryan
It's softcore gay porn.
00:06:31
Tommy Marzella
yeah.
00:06:32
Ryan
It's like Skidamax HBO style what we grew up
00:06:32
Tommy Marzella
yeah
00:06:36
Tommy Marzella
Yeah, and and so i'm I'm here kind of like, this is fantastic at a time when it feels like the world is falling apart around us. And i love love that it's not only like being so well received by the queer community, but like so many people in the straight community as well, particularly straight women.
00:06:55
Ryan
Yeah, I mean, who cares about straight people? um But it's my podcast, I'm allowed to say that. um Yeah, i admittedly am a Taurus boots the house down.
00:07:08
Ryan
um And so as soon as my first response was like, I'm not watching that
Overcoming Skepticism of Heated Rivalry
00:07:11
Ryan
white people bullshit, if we're being completely honest. It looked like white gay nonsense. And I was like, oh my God, attractive white men having sex and people losing their mind.
00:07:20
Ryan
How groundbreaking. ah So i was ah i was a hater for a minute. And then people started like telling me I needed to watch it. And that is the number one way to get me to not do something. like Do not tell me what to what to do, especially when it comes to media. like I just don't.
00:07:40
Ryan
it It makes me dig my heels in. it's a It's a personality trait of mine that is perhaps unbecoming, but I don't particularly care. um And then over the holiday break, I was staying with Ooxie and we were like sitting on the couch having coffee on Saturday morning or Sunday morning or something. And we, he told me that the actress that plays Shauna Shipman in ah Yellow Jackets was in it. And I was like, now wait a fucking minute. That's a different story. I love that actor.
00:08:12
Ryan
And so I was like, fine, put it on. And Oxy really broke me down. Like it was, it was not very hard to get me to watch it, but like the peer pressure of it all is exhausting.
00:08:23
Ryan
um
00:08:24
Tommy Marzella
It's everywhere.
00:08:24
Ryan
So it's everywhere.
00:08:24
Tommy Marzella
I mean, it's not every meme, it's everywhere.
00:08:28
Ryan
i and i also now understand the mass psychosis of it all, but like, I watched the first episode and was like, I was immediately sold in five minutes.
00:08:39
Ryan
Like it did not take long. And it really wasn't even the the sex. Like, yeah, that's a great add in. But I was like compelled. There was something about them that I found interesting, which is kind of like drawing me to the next point, like the overall discussion.
00:08:56
Ryan
about why it's sticking with people so much. And I'll share my perspective on it, but like why do you think it's
Varsity Sports and Heated Rivalry
00:09:03
Ryan
sticking so much? Why do you think everyone is talking about it?
00:09:06
Tommy Marzella
I mean, honestly, it just reminds me of when I was on a varsity sports league at my high school. Okay,
00:09:12
Ryan
You mean the swim team, Tommy? That was like, yeah, Tommy was, Tommy did letter.
00:09:15
Tommy Marzella
I lettered.
00:09:18
Ryan
He also lettered in choir So do with that what you will.
00:09:22
Tommy Marzella
I mean, I think it's sticking because... First of all, I mean, I am not like I took like one film class in college and I can't speak like much to cinematography, but I do feel like there is some type of like
Cinematography and Storytelling in Heated Rivalry
00:09:36
Tommy Marzella
elements in there. Like it it plays well, like the angles, the way that the just the way it's filmed is like done very beautifully.
00:09:44
Tommy Marzella
And I really like that. um i'm I'm also... again, like I feel like in this sort of moment, you know, we have this like very oppressive government, this regime at this moment, and everything kind of feels like shit on the outside world. And we're looking at this like I don't know, really like beautiful story that is sort of complicated and it's got all of the elements, right? Like you do have these like steamy moments, but you also have these moments of like what it's like to come out and and sort of hyper focused on what it's like to come out within like a sports, you know? And then that's, again, that's not really something I know anything about, but the story is is is good to me because you start to like,
00:10:32
Tommy Marzella
The way that, I guess really to kind of put it into a sentence or two, it's, I love the way that they like hone in to these people have these like big sort of celebrity lives as it like NHL players, but it feels like very intimate. And I think the the director does a really nice job conveying that.
00:10:54
Ryan
Wow, that is a perspective that I had not, it is extremely intimate and it makes you feel connected to it instead of like you are observing it as a viewer. Like you, it makes you feel more like you are almost like a fly on the wall of their love story.
Relatability of Heated Rivalry's Love Story
00:11:09
Ryan
And I wanna share a quote from um my friend David because it really resonated with me and why I think, why it stuck with me so much.
00:11:21
Ryan
He said, it mirrored my it mirrored my experience from my youth with his now husband. He said, if you remove the celebrity aspect and shrink the timeline from 10 years to six to 12 months, I remember those sweet moments of touching feet when no one was looking or the fear that someone would find out, secret rendezvous, raw emotion and self-discovery, nostalgia, and some of the most important moments of my life, a true gay experience on screen that actually felt like something I lived.
00:11:48
Ryan
Like, that is exactly why it landed with me. Like, I agree on all the things that you're saying. And in fact, I'll i'll kind of ah use my favorite word of the last two weeks, which is yearning. The yearning that is portrayed, that is something that ah that is experienced by people of any sexual orientation, any gender, but to be a person who is socialized as a man and have an attraction to another man
00:12:18
Ryan
which already flies against, you know, sort of the most dominant social norm. And then you add the layer that like affection between men is never even appropriate.
00:12:31
Ryan
And then for them specifically, not necessarily for us, but for them, the next layer of competitive sports, which have like this new layer of hyper-masculinity. And so that is a very unique experience that many of us had,
00:12:47
Ryan
it it The reason I asked you to be on was because it felt, I felt so connected to them from what our experience was coming out. And obviously like, you know, ah you're in a beautiful, happy relationship and I am divorced. ah But, you know, those things don't impact what we experienced
Nostalgia and Youthful Love
00:13:06
Ryan
as young people. Like, even though, yes,
00:13:10
Ryan
it got messy as it probably will for Ilya and Shane, like for the moment that for the time period that we were like figuring it out, all of it, like our own experience and then how we were experiencing each other. it is just so sugarcoated in my mind. it was, it's like, i I remember that there was sad stuff, but like who gets to, you know, to fall in love with your best friend and then have this life experience where you come out together is like,
00:13:40
Ryan
I don't know like when he kissed him on the ice and when, you know, when Ilias is going to the couch, there's like a sixty forty chance I'll cry while we're talking. But um it just was so beautiful. and then, of course, you you know, as ah as a viewer, the fact that you're always waiting for the other shoe to fall, especially because it's queer characters, and it doesn't.
00:14:04
Ryan
And you just get these two men driving home together, looking at each other in love is like...
00:14:13
Ryan
it just it It was so remarkable. And so, like, I kind of wanted to just reminisce with you for a little bit about, like, what you remember. It feels... it's I think this is, like, 20 years since we came out. Didn't we agree? It was, like, 2006. Yeah.
00:14:28
Tommy Marzella
I think that, I mean, 2000, yeah, 2006 sounds about right.
00:14:34
Ryan
Because we, ah it was the summer after sophomore year, which would have been 2005, was when we like, you know, felt when when when the trysts started. and then, maybe so maybe it was 2005. I don't remember. It doesn't matter.
00:14:52
Ryan
um But it is fucking crazy that it's been that long and that we are still in each other's lives. um So... when it comes to the parallels, um true or false, we did not like each other.
00:15:09
Tommy Marzella
I think in middle school, we did not like each other, but I don't know really why. I think I just thought you were like very popular and very cool and I wasn't going to be that way.
00:15:20
Tommy Marzella
And so therefore, i yeah I wasn't going to be liked or something.
00:15:20
Ryan
Well, you're still not wrong.
00:15:24
Tommy Marzella
I don't know. ah But yeah, I don't think we actually.
00:15:26
Ryan
You know, i have... Yeah, you know, my theory is like, ah it's almost like a, it's not my theory, actually, I'm pretty sure it's like Freudian or Jungian, it's like a defense mechanism, like, I see something in you that I don't like about myself, so I am responding to you as if you are the problem.
00:15:45
Ryan
um Which was the case for us and a lot of queer people, I feel like, in our school, like, anyway, so, you know, there was this tension of like, I don't really particularly remember liking you. We did have, oh my God, do you remember when we went on like a double date with those two girls to see Orange County when we were in like seventh grade? I'm so sorry. Do you remember that?
00:16:04
Tommy Marzella
Very vaguely. Yeah, I mean, kind of.
00:16:06
Ryan
Okay, it doesn't matter. um So yeah, we,
00:16:09
Tommy Marzella
You've always had better memory than I do, though, to recall these things. And I feel like you kept a lot more ah journals, diaries, and notes.
00:16:14
Ryan
correct.
00:16:19
Ryan
That is true. I still have my journal from senior year, which includes a specific story regarding throw up that we won't talk about on this podcast. um So the scene where it moves into actual tension, where they are riding the bikes and like clearly competing with each other. um The way that they go about, I mean, essentially they're cruising, you know, they, you know,
00:16:47
Ryan
they are cruising one another, but that wasn't our experience, but it was this like slow, you and I both, I think shared with each other over the years, like creeping through each other's, you know, computers and, and definitely having this like suspicion about each other.
00:17:07
Ryan
And then one day the tension was just kind of like cracked essentially.
00:17:14
Tommy Marzella
Yeah, I mean, yes.
00:17:14
Ryan
Is that how you remember it?
00:17:16
Tommy Marzella
And real quick tangent, because I have to, when you brought that scene up, it's so funny that
Personal Coming Out Stories
00:17:20
Tommy Marzella
you were bringing that up. I was in my, like my hit workout this morning and I'm working out with my fellow gay friend.
00:17:27
Tommy Marzella
And while we were doing our, like, like our, our skiing machine or whatever, there are two guys over who were going so fast on the elliptical side by side.
00:17:37
Tommy Marzella
And i was like, it's really giving heated rivalry over there this morning, isn't it? But yeah, I mean,
00:17:41
Ryan
it's giving they're gonna get together in the sauna
00:17:44
Tommy Marzella
And so you know I think like how i remember it is you know there's like this, it's complicated because there's sort of this like, who am I?
00:17:54
Tommy Marzella
Like moment, like, am I gay? Am I, what am I? I'm sort of starting to feel these feelings. I'm feeling these feelings about myself, feeling these feelings about you, trying to figure out like, what does this all mean?
00:18:06
Tommy Marzella
And it's so exciting and it's terrifying.
00:18:10
Ryan
Mm-hmm.
00:18:10
Tommy Marzella
and Obviously, although you were the cool kid, like we are not celebrities, but you know to parallel a little bit to the show, like it probably feels that way at times.
00:18:16
Ryan
Right.
00:18:21
Tommy Marzella
like i I kind of very vividly like remember your your phone going off with your, like since you've been gone ringtone, and you're like, I'm gonna hide this.
00:18:22
Ryan
Totally.
00:18:30
Ryan
That you did that. You did that to get me in trouble, you raggedy bitch.
00:18:35
Tommy Marzella
I texted you something in class and, you know, probably something adorable and cute or whatever, if I had to guess.
00:18:41
Ryan
Sure, for sure, sure.
00:18:42
Tommy Marzella
And, you know, ah but like, you know, there are these moments of like, will I get caught like within our our school, right?
00:18:43
Ryan
Yeah.
00:18:49
Ryan
Mm-hmm.
00:18:49
Tommy Marzella
Like our school is not like the and NHL, but our school is like, know, we had 450 some people in our class.
00:18:50
Ryan
Yes. Right, right, exactly.
00:18:57
Tommy Marzella
And so i guess it just, it felt like a slow burn of like, who am i What are we? you know I've certainly got my own like religious trauma at the time I was trying to like figure out what that meant.
00:19:10
Tommy Marzella
um But it also felt like really exciting because i was like called to it. And I was like, this is who I am and who I want to be.
00:19:16
Ryan
Yeah.
00:19:18
Tommy Marzella
And I remember like sleepovers and like you know like you had like that door in your parents' basement and like kind of like walking down.
00:19:26
Ryan
my God, yes.
00:19:28
Tommy Marzella
Like that is like so vivid standing out to me. but But then these like cute moments of like, let's like relax your hair or like let's like, I thought there was, a lot I thought, i mean, we died, I thought there was relaxing as well.
00:19:36
Ryan
Oh my God. First of all, it was dying my hair. Don't, it was dying both of our hair. My hair was relaxed, yes.
00:19:44
Tommy Marzella
And so it was like, we like dyed our hair together.
00:19:45
Ryan
Yes.
00:19:47
Tommy Marzella
And like, there are these moments that like, let's just like lay in each other's arms and watch a movie in the basement because we could lock the door and and not be caught by our parents, you know?
00:19:47
Ryan
Yes.
00:19:52
Ryan
Yes.
00:19:55
Ryan
Right.
00:19:58
Ryan
Yeah. Yeah, it was... The secret of it all was so fun. Like... you know, when they were like sexting or whatever, um and like before a game and like, again, not to, we were teenagers, so of the same age. So it's weird to talk about it in hindsight, but like, you know, a similar sort of experience of like,
00:20:21
Ryan
it was just about sex, if we're being honest. It was, we were sure, like all the other stuff was there, but in that same way as Ilya and Shane, we were doing our own internal negotiations and negotiations between each other around what it meant. Like, we wouldn't say I love you. We wouldn't kiss for the you know beginning part of it. That was your bag. And I would remember just being like yeah, no, totally. We're not gonna kiss. um But, you know, all of those negotiations that they have to have, it was like, oh, my God, I remember. And because, you know, even like, yeah, sure, the breakup was traumatic. Like, thankfully, neither of us really experienced a lot of trauma around coming out.
00:21:08
Ryan
It was, you know, we did OK, comparatively speaking, especially what we know now as adult queer professionals. Yeah.
00:21:16
Tommy Marzella
Could have been a lot worse.
00:21:16
Ryan
But you it could have been a lot worse. And, you know, the the the beauty of it and the the negotiation of it, um how fun it was.
00:21:29
Ryan
And then it did become clear that you and I had feelings for each other. And we moved into this place of, like, really acknowledging it and the... It went from being like, oh, my best friend that I'm, you know, hooking up with and he's doing sweet things for me to i am in love with this person. And it is the reason I am sharing that. Like the day that I...
00:21:54
Ryan
The day that I came out, which does bring us to our our next point, but like, um you know, no, it was not kissing on the rink of, you know, after winning the fucking Stanley Cup. Um,
00:22:11
Ryan
It's close though. The day that i came out was the the dance marathon
Ryan's Dramatic Coming Out Moment
00:22:16
Ryan
ah that was a a fundraiser for a high school theater program to raise money for new curtains, which is just like the gayest fucking
00:22:25
Tommy Marzella
You could almost like not believe it that you were gay. yeah
00:22:28
Ryan
It's like, well, you really can't. Like, what do you mean? Yeah. I woke up and I said, mom, I have to go to the dance marathon to raise money for our high school program. Like our high school theater program should have been like, oh, you're gay is what you're saying. But instead what woke, what happened was my mom woke me up because the night before me and you and another mutual friend had gotten into a really big fight because the, the women that you were tricking, ah I did not have the same problem, but yeah, You had some complicated relationships happening. um And when it did not go like it did with Rose or with Svetlana. Was that her name? Is that her name? Svetlana, his best friend?
00:23:08
Ryan
Ilya's girlfriend person? Is it Svetlana?
00:23:12
Tommy Marzella
um ah I mean, you obviously know how bad I am with names based on my earlier, like, charms to choose one.
00:23:15
Ryan
I'm pretty sure it is.
00:23:19
Ryan
Right. Right. Right. It doesn't matter either way, but like you didn't have as good of it. It eventually worked out. Hey, Jenny, shout out. Eventually it all worked out, but like that was a really difficult emotional time. And it made, i mean, I think it brought us closer, but it did add this confusion around like not wanting to hurt these other people when we were so in love with each other. And I think I had also started dating a girl around that point too, um maybe, or that was later, but I had cried at the dinner table and excused myself because we had gotten into a big fight on AOL in a group chat.
00:23:57
Ryan
And my mom woke me up the next morning and said, like, you're not getting out of bed until you tell me what's going on. And I just like cried into my pillow and said, like, I'm in love with Tommy and, you know, all this other mess that was happening.
00:24:13
Ryan
And my mom said she knew it um or she thought that our friend was pregnant. But That day i showed up to the dance marathon just emotionally. I'm sure I cannot imagine how dramatic I was being about all of it.
00:24:30
Ryan
um But like a good boyfriend and like Ilya does, you went to my house to talk to my mom. what do you what What do you remember about that conversation?
00:24:43
Tommy Marzella
I like, don't remember. I mean, I like remember, like you are, you have such a good memory. Like, I feel like I, I mean, I feel like I remember this now that you've said it, but I mean, i am just going to speculate.
00:24:50
Ryan
Which is wild.
00:24:55
Ryan
yeah
00:24:57
Tommy Marzella
Like if I had to guess, I probably, you know, was just talking about our relationship, the things that we were holding in and, and probably like,
00:25:10
Tommy Marzella
not wanting to hurt you and being confused myself, if I had to guess. And and she probably talked about how her biggest thing was making sure you're okay.
00:25:19
Ryan
Yeah. Well, um I can't, I'm like devastated that you don't remember this, but I hope me saying, you said you would convert to Judaism, ah which was, which is like, I mean, you it it was almost like you had a premonition, but it was about the wrong relationship, Phoebe.
00:25:28
Tommy Marzella
I am now dating a Jewish guy, so there that may still be...
00:25:38
Ryan
um So yeah you, you, ah you kind of like went and like, not asked my parents for permission, but like,
00:25:49
Ryan
I don't know. I'm i'm so curious. i i don't know that I ever asked like what compelled you to do that. And i it's I can't imagine that you remember at this moment, but that was like such a wild place because you did not tell me until after.
00:26:03
Ryan
and I was still at the dance marathon and you went and came back. This all I this I remember like it was yesterday, like it's insane. um But do you remember what compelled you to go?
00:26:17
Tommy Marzella
I mean, I probably,
00:26:19
Tommy Marzella
i don't know. I mean, based on like everything you're saying, like AOL conversation the night before leading into this, if if i'm if memory serves well, I probably was just like,
00:26:30
Tommy Marzella
feeling a way, a bad way about everything and wanting to like make amends and being like, this is a huge mess.
00:26:36
Ryan
Sure, yeah.
00:26:37
Tommy Marzella
But also there's, you know, but despite like the the drama and the mess that we had, like, I'm guessing that you're coming out felt even more significant than like the Mishigas that we, we had in the moment.
00:26:50
Tommy Marzella
Right. And then,
00:26:52
Ryan
sure yeah
00:26:54
Tommy Marzella
I don't know I mean, I think it's a big moment. And I think I, I mean, if I had to speculate, I probably just wanted to make sure that your parents were okay with you being gay and that it was gonna be okay.
00:27:08
Ryan
Okay, so what do you remember what do you remember about your coming out? Because I don't remember which one of us did it first, but wasn't it almost very, you know, um it wasn't I'm coming to the cottage, but it was like I came out and you came out pretty shortly thereafter.
Tommy's Coming Out Stories
00:27:22
Tommy Marzella
I just remember I came out to my parents separately. i was watching Desperate Housewives with my mom and I thought, I have something to tell you. and she said, as long as you're not gay, honey.
00:27:34
Tommy Marzella
And obviously I was gay.
00:27:36
Ryan
Sure.
00:27:37
Tommy Marzella
And that's how that went with my mom. And then I think with my dad, um i was like, hey, my parents owned a restaurant. And so I like pulled them aside to the back booth and was like, I have something to tell you.
00:27:50
Tommy Marzella
um i'm I'm gay. And he was like, his first question was basically like, had I ever like, you know, been with a woman before as though like that would sort of solve this.
00:28:02
Tommy Marzella
And after he sort of processed that, then he was like, okay, no more sleepovers with your with your guy friends, right?
00:28:08
Ryan
Oh my god. And then he still let us have sleepovers.
00:28:12
Tommy Marzella
I think he still let us have sleepovers. um And so
00:28:15
Ryan
And obviously your mom, like, came around.
00:28:19
Tommy Marzella
Yeah. I mean, i think for a while she still, you know, said things like your friend or, you know, whatever, but, and it was very interesting.
00:28:25
Ryan
Mm-hmm.
00:28:26
Tommy Marzella
Like for a while, I didn't talk to my dad, like the first few months when I went to college. And I later found out like many, many years later, he went to like four or five therapy sessions, um which shocked me.
00:28:38
Tommy Marzella
And so the last therapy session, the woman was finally like, you didn't do anything wrong. This is just how your son is and you have to accept it. And that's life.
00:28:47
Ryan
Yeah.
00:28:47
Tommy Marzella
mean,
00:28:49
Ryan
Wow, I don't think I knew that. I don't think you ever told me that. Big ups, big time.
00:28:52
Tommy Marzella
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, i and that's, you know, I don't know. And it's like, i'm I'm like, you know, probably another time in another place, but just reflective of like the stuff we've gone through, like both of the parents we're talking about are no longer with us anymore, which is like another, another thing that we've gone through, like, ill albeit separately, but, you know, still there for each other.
00:29:08
Ryan
Right.
00:29:13
Ryan
Yeah.
00:29:17
Ryan
Well, and I think that like I use the expression word bonded at the soul. like You don't go through that kind of thing with someone at such an early, such an impactful thing with someone.
00:29:29
Ryan
like If we were straight, we probably would have like had a kid and been you know angry 20 something. you know if If we were straight and one of us was the appropriate gender, um we would have followed, I think, a very traditional suburban high school sweetheart because there's a couple of high school people that are still together. um But all of that is to say, like, it was why it felt so good, why it feels so good to, like, reflect on it in the context of Heated Rivalry is because, like, I mean, for me, at least, it re-crapped open the fact that I am, like, a super hopeless romantic.
00:30:11
Ryan
Like, not that that show was particularly, like, Heated Rivalry is the skip of it all. Scott and Kip, like, yeah, that's super romantic.
00:30:19
Tommy Marzella
horrible.
00:30:20
Ryan
Uh, Ilya and Shane are super romantic too in their own way, but, um I'm like, I want, I want to be in love again. i can't wait. This, like, that is what I want. And it made me think back to being like 17. you know, you were a, you were a sweet boyfriend for, again, for as shitty as you were eventually towards the end.
00:30:42
Ryan
You did a lot of really sweet things. And I felt loved in a I felt chosen in a way that I think we see with Kip and Scott when he calls him from the stands. Like,
00:30:55
Ryan
you went to my parents, you stood up for me when I got kicked out of choir class for screaming at the teacher. um You were always kind of that like, ah you know, I, except for when you didn't, I did often feel chosen by you. And that was like such that's such a beautiful thing to experience as a queer person at such an early age.
00:31:17
Ryan
um And i I think that also, that feeling that it brings up, I'm like, oh my God, I'm like 17 again. I i want, going to show up at my house with a really shitty happy birthday sign on a poster board with one balloon taped to each corner.
00:31:34
Tommy Marzella
Okay, my art hasn't gotten much better, but you know, it's like
00:31:37
Ryan
yeah While your sunfire idled in the fucking driveway next door.
00:31:42
Tommy Marzella
playing some Spice Girls or something. But you know, i it's, no, you go, you go.
00:31:45
Ryan
wait Okay, sorry. go ahead. Sorry. um That was another thing. The music within it. So the song, um I'll Believe Anything, that 100% would have been on an ambiguously gay duo mix, ah a lore background story when we were in high school. It was the era of burning CDs.
00:32:08
Ryan
It has always been a love language of mine to create playlists of music for people. But ah for the brief period of time when we were just kind of like, ha ha ha those guys are definitely gay together before we were actually gay together. um We referred to ourselves as the ambiguously gay duo and we started making mixes back and forth for each other that slowly but surely became these like dedications of love to each other.
00:32:36
Ryan
Oh, it was so...
00:32:36
Tommy Marzella
more volumes than now.
00:32:37
Ryan
That song... Yeah. Yes. Oh, honestly, we would have outsold now a long time ago, but... um The music, the that I'll Believe Anything feels like it belongs on an early AGD mix, like when we were teenagers.
00:32:54
Tommy Marzella
I mean, the music was great. Like, loving... I mean, the club scene.
00:32:59
Ryan
All the things she said.
00:33:01
Tommy Marzella
The club scene.
00:33:02
Ryan
Okay, that's another... that is another thing... Do you remember? There's no way that you do. Of course you don't.
00:33:09
Ryan
Senior year homecoming. um the Both of the last women that we dated were queer, which I think is like a whole other theology.
00:33:16
Tommy Marzella
Yes. There's so many parallels.
00:33:20
Ryan
There's also so several of the women that I dated are queer, which is neither here nor there, but um i I wish I could, maybe it was like you and me or something, some 2006 ass song.
00:33:32
Ryan
And I was dancing and you were dancing with someone else and we kept looking at each other. And it was like very, all the things she said, except, I mean, it could have been all the things she said.
00:33:42
Tommy Marzella
So we had our holiday, she said moment, see, and this is like, again, what was this and what, where was this at school?
00:33:43
Ryan
It was, we did.
00:33:51
Ryan
Yeah, this would have been in the gym. um i remember i I remember kind of what I was wearing just because I remember the pictures that we took like at at school, like the background. Because it was not it was not a real formal. It was like a high school formal. It wasn't like prom or anything.
00:34:08
Ryan
um But yeah, the the final...
00:34:11
Tommy Marzella
remember i remember like taking women to like like dances but then like knowing i was gonna like sleep over with you afterwards right
00:34:17
Ryan
Yes.
00:34:21
Ryan
Oh... That was like such, I really had not thought about that until you, until you said that, but yeah, that was a, that was a, I'm like actually blushing little bit.
00:34:36
Tommy Marzella
Like it was it such a secret because it's like we did not want this thing to be exposed at this time.
00:34:36
Ryan
That was, that was definitely. Yes.
00:34:42
Tommy Marzella
Like it's not, it did not feel like hopefully how it feels for young people today to be like more comfortable being out.
00:34:42
Ryan
Yes.
00:34:51
Tommy Marzella
and Obviously not everyone's experience, but it felt like,
00:34:51
Ryan
Sure.
00:34:55
Tommy Marzella
secretive for us. And so it's like, we you would kind of like, have to pass and we would take women to like, you know, in 10th grade, do our high school, 11th grade, do our high school dances and then be like, but going sleep over at Ryan's house and watch a movie all night and we'll like eat popcorn and cuddle.
00:34:56
Ryan
Yeah.
00:35:01
Ryan
Yes.
00:35:09
Ryan
Yes. Wow, that's so, you're being so sweet about it too. um Okay, so last thing you are dressed like you're coming to the cottage. um What I,
00:35:25
Ryan
There were a couple there are a couple of memories that we had that like as soon as we got the cottage episode, i was like, oh, my God, I remember that that feeling of like wanting to be able to experience what it would be like to actually be together.
Shared Experiences and Heated Rivalry Parallel
00:35:40
Ryan
And the the one that comes to mind, know like I know we toured OU together. um But when we toured Miami and you and I had our own room, I think it was actually before we came out too.
00:35:53
Ryan
um And your dad was in the conjoined room next door. And, oh no, I'm pretty sure he was like next door because there was, it was very Scott Hunter's next door um because we like had to make sure that the um conjoining door was locked.
00:35:59
Tommy Marzella
Or somewhere.
00:36:10
Tommy Marzella
I mean, i I like specifically remember like my dad being like, oh, like, why do you want a separate room? like why Like, why does that matter? Because like, it's just like, there's, you know, like you guys can get a bed, I'll get a bed.
00:36:23
Tommy Marzella
I remember in the morning, I think you were like, because we obviously like slept in the same bed. And so you were like,
00:36:29
Ryan
Yeah.
00:36:30
Tommy Marzella
you know, we should like make sure the other bed looks messed up. So, you know, your dad thinks that we slept in separate beds. Like it it did feel like, I mean, this like probably like shitty hotel on Miami University's campus.
00:36:37
Ryan
Yeah.
00:36:41
Ryan
Wow.
00:36:44
Ryan
No, it was like the Miami University Inn. It was like, you know, the you remember the o u n It's like the hotel affiliated with the school. um
00:36:53
Tommy Marzella
Okay, this nice hotel.
00:36:53
Ryan
We must, yeah.
00:36:54
Tommy Marzella
It was very nice. Hotel felt, you know, felt like this sort of like moment. I mean, there did feel like this sort of like omnipresent parent thing in like ethereal around, but it did feel like once the doors were locked, like we kind of had this like vacationing moment and it was like our cottage
00:37:05
Ryan
Yeah.
00:37:12
Ryan
Yeah. It was the cottage. Yeah. um And ah the last thing I think that I feel like was a parallel was we were both also at sort of um the, like,
00:37:29
Ryan
you i feel like you knew that you were I feel like I was more aligned with Ilya, where I was just like, yeah, I still think I like women, whereas you were kind of like, you were sure you were gay. And I was not sure.
00:37:40
Ryan
And there were some moments, like, I think you wanted us to go to prom together or like a formal together, and I was like, not fucking ready for it. um I remember reading the note in study hall and I think you maybe gave me an ultimatum, um which is so dramatic in Scorpio.
00:37:55
Tommy Marzella
sound like
00:37:56
Ryan
It sounds so Scorpio. So that checks out. um So yeah, that was another parallel. And then there was one that you just added that I promise I never even considered.
00:38:07
Tommy Marzella
So, yeah, I mean, I was going to say, like, there's this really beautiful, I think one of my favorite scenes is episode five, where Leah is having this conversation in Russian to Shane, and he's talking to him, right, about for five minutes in sort of Russian, and obviously Shane doesn't understand, and he's just saying, like, here's everything on my mind, and I love you, and all this stuff, and I just...
00:38:13
Ryan
Oh, yes.
00:38:19
Ryan
Yes.
00:38:30
Tommy Marzella
And it's so beautiful. And I guess I was just kind of thinking like, for so long, you wanted to be a Spanish teacher. And like you, I feel like you would often sort of do like cute things in Spanish, you know, I don't know, like it would sort of.
00:38:44
Ryan
That does also sound like me.
00:38:46
Tommy Marzella
Yes. And I feel like, you know, i i mean, i don't I can't say how good my Spanish is anymore or was back then at that point, but
00:38:52
Ryan
It was not good back then either, babe.
00:38:55
Tommy Marzella
was probably horrible and I will spare everyone from that now. But you know, it's like, it just was like this really sort of, don't know, just something about it felt like, because it allowed him to be vulnerable, which
Vulnerability in Expressing Love
00:39:08
Tommy Marzella
don't know that he was up until that moment, but he's like, I'm going to do this because I can do it, but he won't understand it.
00:39:08
Ryan
Yes.
00:39:15
Ryan
Right.
00:39:15
Tommy Marzella
And it's just beautiful.
00:39:18
Ryan
I think being able to say what you really want to say and not worry about anyone else understanding, granted he was in Russia speaking Russian, so it would have been a different story, but like, you know, I, I, that does kind of like ill elicit a familiar feeling of like, I feel like I probably tried to out Spanish you or something and like, you know, share some feelings with you or something, not as beautiful as Ilya's monologue is, but yeah,
00:39:43
Ryan
I that the the foreign language aspect does kind of um elicit a familiar feeling. So um let's wrap it up. So we're not too too long. It's supposed to be short. But um what do you think 17 year old us would have thought about heated rivalry?
Teenage Reactions to Heated Rivalry
00:40:03
Tommy Marzella
i think I think it would have been amazing. I mean, it's it's so interesting because it came out now at a time where I do feel like we're we're way, we've moved along in the world of progress.
00:40:16
Tommy Marzella
We still have a lot of work to do, but like, I mean, back then I was looking for anything.
00:40:18
Ryan
Yeah.
00:40:20
Tommy Marzella
We had like Degrassi and I remember my mom's friend the time saying like, oh, that's so gross that they would put gay characters on it.
00:40:23
Ryan
Right.
00:40:27
Tommy Marzella
Like that's what I like heard in the background.
00:40:29
Ryan
Yeah.
00:40:29
Tommy Marzella
And now to see that, you know, like I remember getting my first box set of Queer as Folk DVDs that I would watch on my lifeguard breaks, right, on my laptop that I would carry with me.
00:40:38
Ryan
Yes.
00:40:40
Tommy Marzella
And that was groundbreaking at the time because the media wasn't there in the way that, I mean, we had we had like will and grace to some extent, but it wasn't like, it wasn't what this is.
00:40:41
Ryan
Yes.
00:40:50
Ryan
Even that.
00:40:52
Tommy Marzella
And so i think 17-year-old us would have loved it. I mean, it's just...
00:40:57
Ryan
Yeah.
00:40:57
Tommy Marzella
you can see yourself in someone else's story and that's a beautiful thing and we need more of that.
00:41:03
Ryan
Yeah. I agree. I think 17 year old us probably would have been, you know, to be frank, super horny for it. I think i like I specifically remember discussing the sex scenes in Queer as Folk as teenagers and like,
00:41:21
Ryan
you know, the the impact that it had on us. But like, I think the feeling that I had, the way that I get so emotionally invested in this, it reminds me of, or I guess a better way to say this, the strength of the emotion that comes up reminds me of when we eventually like broke up, not to be sad, but like, I remember going to IGL video, which is like,
00:41:51
Ryan
a shared psychotic, like, no, that was not real. That was not real. It couldn't have been, but it was. We went to IGL, I went to IGL video and rented Moulin Rouge by myself and watched it in my basement where we would have sleepovers and just like sobbed.
00:42:08
Ryan
And, this show, the way that it can bring emotion out of me, like Buffy does that to me, I'll be honest, but not a lot of shows can really get me just like to the nerve. And so I think back then I would have had a similar response too. don't know that I would have been able to emotionally handle all of that. I would have like wanted you to confess your love for me, like in the middle of fucking Royal Harmony or something. But um do you have any hopes for season two? Shut up, put that down. Oh my God, i didn't know that it would do that. That's so funny.
00:42:42
Tommy Marzella
Always the eternally good boyfriend, right?
00:42:42
Ryan
um
00:42:45
Tommy Marzella
um
00:42:45
Ryan
Exactly.
00:42:47
Tommy Marzella
Do I have any hopes for season two? I mean, I love this.
00:42:50
Ryan
Have you read the books?
00:42:51
Tommy Marzella
No, I haven't read the books and I feel like they're sold out everywhere from what I heard.
00:42:54
Ryan
Okay. Totally.
00:42:57
Tommy Marzella
Um, I just don't, I don't know that they anticipated it would be like this big.
Hopes for Heated Rivalry Season Two
00:43:00
Tommy Marzella
And so anyways, you define the books.
00:43:01
Ryan
Right.
00:43:03
Tommy Marzella
Um, I really love the, like the, like Kip and Scott story. And I feel like I, I mean, I would like love more to that. I don't really know.
00:43:14
Tommy Marzella
i feel like it seems like some years passed in between there.
00:43:14
Ryan
Yeah.
00:43:18
Tommy Marzella
I mean, I'm like the time always confused me. Like, I feel like we're hopping. So it would be cool to get more of that story. um would be like one thing that's interesting to me.
00:43:29
Tommy Marzella
I'm curious how, you know, in season two, if it's going to be more about like coming out and like reception to coming out and what that's like, but I just really like these kind of intimate moments that this creates. And so even though there's like big celebrities within their, their sports world,
00:43:48
Tommy Marzella
they still like do a really nice job, like just kind of like honing in into the two of them. And i want to continue to see that because I think it's sort of, it it helps change hearts and minds.
00:44:01
Tommy Marzella
And I think we need that right now. It's not, it does. I mean, I know, I mean, it's not just, but it does.
00:44:06
Ryan
Obviously, yes. Totally.
00:44:08
Tommy Marzella
And and
00:44:08
Ryan
i'm I'm only rolling my eyes because it's such a talking point, and it is correct. There are also a lot of things that need to be addressed about the show, and, like, if I see another cis white gay boy talk about the importance of representation, like, bitch, that's not representation, that is visibility. There are two different things happening there.
00:44:28
Ryan
Visibility is important, too, but that is not representative of queer people's experiences. Like, what actually like if I were to be for real about some of the stuff under the emotions it's like after I watched the first five episodes in one sitting with Uxie and the high wore off the feelings that came out were like oh I haven't felt that way since I was young but like I don't look like those guys I don't get i don't get treated like that like you know I'm I'm
00:44:53
Tommy Marzella
Thank you.
00:45:00
Ryan
grateful to have had a beautiful 11 year relationship, but like it brought out a lot of feelings of insecurity. Like my body does not look like that. It's, you know, the the other stuff that is inherently kind of problematic about the show that is substantially less important than the good things about the show, which not all queer media, not all queer media media that centers cis white gayness can say that.
00:45:28
Ryan
And so i think, My hopes for season two, I'm really curious to see, you know, what the actual um fall but fall, not fallout, because I don't want to assume it's bad, but like what the repercussions of them choosing each other come out. Like I loved,
00:45:50
Ryan
Shane's I've got a plan, you know, here's how we can be together. That also felt very familiar, but, you know, was like, no girl, let's get these sponsorships, which took me down. Incredible.
00:46:03
Tommy Marzella
I was going to say my hope is that he gets every brand sponsorship with his mom.
00:46:03
Ryan
Absolutely.
00:46:07
Ryan
Like, absolutely.
00:46:08
Tommy Marzella
It's like, hey, we're going to call it.
00:46:09
Ryan
Yuna has it on lock.
00:46:11
Tommy Marzella
Yeah.
00:46:12
Ryan
Yuna has it on lock. I promise. um But yeah, that I, I think, uh, that's a great place to to wrap it up. um Thanks for, for agreeing to do this and for the trip down memory lane. ah it you know, if anything, it just, it makes me feel really lucky that I watched that show and I was like, my first queer experience was like that.
00:46:38
Ryan
It was amazing. safe and beautiful and intense and life-changing. So, you know, thanks T Jam. Love you for that.
00:46:51
Tommy Marzella
I'm really glad you invited me to do this. I don't really get to do a lot of podcasts, honestly. And so, you know, and it's it's, I don't know. I don't, I feel like we're just, for me personally, I spend a lot of time just like thinking about the future and I don't spend a lot of time thinking about the past always.
00:47:06
Tommy Marzella
And so it's it's really like nice to like,
00:47:06
Ryan
Yeah.
00:47:10
Tommy Marzella
take a step back and be like, okay, what was it? What was coming out? Like, what was it like coming out with the best friend who was my boyfriend who I love, you know, and and love today? Right. And so it just, it's beautiful. I don't know. It's a really special thing.
00:47:25
Ryan
Yeah, you are also low-key giving Scott Hunter vibes with the beard and hair, so that's working for you. um But yeah, ah thanks a bunch.
00:47:34
Tommy Marzella
We all deserve some time.
00:47:37
Ryan
What'd you say?
00:47:37
Tommy Marzella
We all deserve some time.
00:47:38
Ryan
oh don't! You bitch, don't! How are you gonna do me like that? I just said that should have been on like one of our Confessions of Love album, and you're gonna be like, you do some sunshine. Okay, thanks for listening.
00:47:50
Ryan
um okay thanks for listening
00:47:52
Tommy Marzella
I just got to go get a smoothie right now.
00:47:54
Ryan
Yeah, shut up. Go to your cute boyfriend with the great butt. Anyways, love ya.
00:47:59
Tommy Marzella
Love you. Thanks.