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20: The View Askewniverse - Chasing Amy with Dara
16 Plays8 days ago
THUNDERBOLTS* SPOILER WARNING: We do start talking about Thunderbolts* / The New Avengers around 12:00. I didn't think I'd need to put that since the movie is like 2 months old but I found out after we recorded that Dara had NOT in fact seen Thunderbolts yet and I absolutely spoiled it for them. So SPOILER ALERT!
Hey True Believers - after a brief hiatus, we've returned with our 20th episode! Join us with our special guest Hot Nerd, Dara, as we discuss the Queer Nerd classic "Chasing Amy."
Follow the show on Instagram at @realhotnerdpod and our hosts on BlueSky at @hellinpastels and @intuitiveblerd.
Opinions shared by the hosts and/or guests of Real Hot Nerd Shit are their own and do not represent any workplace or organization with whom they may or may not be affiliated.
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Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Theme
00:00:00
Ryan
Thank you.
00:00:07
Dara
Thank you.
00:00:28
Ryan
Welcome back to Real Hot Nerd Shit, a pop culture podcast where real hot nerds talk about real nerd shit. I'm your host, Ryan.
00:00:37
Shauna (she/her)
And I'm your host, Shauna.
Episode Focus: Chasing Amy
00:00:39
Ryan
And on this episode of Real Hot Nerd Shit, we are finally wrapping up the View Askewniverse with the queer, a nerd, genius, beautiful film, Chasing Amy.
00:00:56
Shauna (she/her)
oh And to do this, we have my amazing and wonderful spouse, Dara. Welcome to the show.
Defining 'Nerd' and Personal Interests
00:01:03
Dara
Hello.
00:01:04
Ryan
oh
00:01:04
Dara
Hello.
00:01:05
Ryan
Wait.
00:01:07
Ryan
Yes, yes, yes. Filmed in front of a live studio audience. um Welcome, Dara. How are you? How's it going? How are you surviving hurtling towards fascism? Mm-hmm.
00:01:18
Dara
um You know, dealing with the dumpster fire daily, balancing that with ah good nerd shit, quite honestly.
00:01:25
Ryan
ah Look, that's all we really can do is just continue to try our hardest um and, ah you know, throw bricks. um
00:01:35
Dara
Yeah.
00:01:36
Ryan
So this is your first, we haven't had you on yet, right?
00:01:40
Dara
no No,
00:01:41
Ryan
Great, great, great, great.
00:01:42
Dara
Shocking way.
00:01:43
Ryan
So now we get to learn more about you. so You know, we define a nerd as someone who is like weirdly knowledgeable, but also passionate about something.
Dara's Childhood and Pop Culture Reflections
00:01:55
Ryan
And sometimes people find that thing uncool, um but who gives a fuck?
00:01:59
Dara
yeah
00:02:00
Ryan
So what are you a nerd about, Daraa?
00:02:04
Dara
I definitely a nerd about a lot of things. um I think specifically Godzilla stuff, cosplay, niche portions of queer media, not necessarily the entirety of a show's universe, but like definitely all the ships.
00:02:19
Dara
um you know That kind of thing. Gossels. That's
00:02:24
Ryan
so So a lover boy at heart, not interested in the plot, just interested in the ships. um I do have two follow-up questions.
00:02:31
Dara
what it is. Yeah.
00:02:33
Ryan
Godzilla stuff? I don't think I knew that.
00:02:36
Dara
Yeah, I mean, there's there's a giant Godzilla in our living room for a reason. um
00:02:41
Ryan
Is it real?
00:02:41
Dara
When... No. I mean, how could it be real? Godzilla is fake.
00:02:46
Ryan
i don't know.
00:02:46
Dara
Yeah.
00:02:46
Ryan
I don't know, Dara. It's a complicated household.
00:02:50
Dara
Yeah, I didn't have cable growing up, but I did have access to a lot of Godzilla movies from the library. um So I have watched an extremely large quantity of really bad Godzilla movies.
00:03:01
Ryan
And is the is the relationship between Godzilla and fossils, is there a connection there or just?
00:03:02
Dara
Repping Biolante.
00:03:13
Dara
I'm... I mean, intellectually, maybe. um Never really thought about it like that. I think I was just one of those kids that wanted to be a paleontologist. So there's probably a been diagram in there somewhere, but I've never actually thought about it like that.
00:03:25
Ryan
Yeah, so you mean ah kid with autism when you say?
00:03:28
Shauna (she/her)
You and that reptile shirt as a kid, like, I just think of that. Like, you had this the very
00:03:31
Dara
Oh yeah. our Peak me at like 11 was I had a black t-shirt, one of those ones that had the guana ripping on it.
00:03:40
Ryan
Oh, yes.
00:03:40
Dara
um Yeah, that was like my favorite shirt for all my tween years.
00:03:46
Ryan
a I absolutely love it. um And you should get like us a tattoo of it with it like ripping through your flesh like those, you know, really cool tattoos.
00:03:57
Dara
Oh no, that's...
00:03:57
Ryan
Just for the memory of it
00:04:00
Dara
That's so not my tattoo taste, but it is very tempting for the amusement factor.
00:04:04
Ryan
it. Right on your growing bicep too.
00:04:08
Dara
No.
00:04:08
Ryan
But you you have to keep you have to keep the trash stash. It can't. It has to stay just like that with your iguana ripping through tattoo. And you can only wear cutoffs regardless of the time of year. Period. End of story.
00:04:20
Ryan
Right?
Life Updates and Pop Culture Events
00:04:21
Shauna (she/her)
Well, that one's done, taken care of.
00:04:22
Dara
I mean, I do own a lot of cutoffs.
00:04:24
Ryan
Right? Right. I mean, this one this one came pre-sleeveless, so, but it's hot as fuck and ah I'm only in sleeveless.
00:04:34
Dara
Yeah.
00:04:37
Ryan
but If I'm not in a meeting, I'm wearing a sleeveless t-shirt. And even when I'm in meetings, sometimes I have this little sweater and that just looks like I'm not wearing a sleeveless t-shirt because versatility at its best.
00:04:40
Dara
Yeah.
00:04:47
Dara
Right. Yeah.
00:04:50
Shauna (she/her)
So now that you're sleeveless in Seattle,
00:04:50
Ryan
So,
00:04:53
Ryan
shut up, Shauna.
00:04:54
Shauna (she/her)
i
00:04:56
Ryan
They're sleeveless in Northeast Ohio, just like the rest of of the queers. um So it's been a little minute. ah Life happened. I turned 36.
00:05:08
Ryan
We have a ah new reigning queen of RuPaul's Drag Race.
00:05:14
Dara
You you
00:05:14
Ryan
um Pride happened. I live in Chicago now. things of Things have changed quite a bit since our last recording.
Queer Representation in Media
00:05:23
Ryan
um Let's get caught up, starting with um the upcoming James Gunn Superman film. We've started to get some...
00:05:34
Ryan
um glimpses into how cleveland will be utilized um shauna first thoughts on seeing kalah kalal no um seeing kalal fly around ah you know the guardians and fucking key tower and shit what do you think yeah
00:05:52
Shauna (she/her)
I think it's cool as heck. Like, I think they're doing a really great job of utilizing Cleveland as this movie-making space. I love that I can see so many wonderful, like, like the beautiful shot of the arcade, and i just i think they're really taking advantage of how beautiful our city is, and I love seeing it.
00:06:12
Ryan
Yeah. Dara, have you watched the trailer yet? Did Shauna make you watch it?
00:06:14
Dara
Yeah, yeah, I i think it's
00:06:15
Ryan
i don't know if I...
00:06:17
Dara
taking much better advantage of it than how the Avengers use Cleveland. Like, I feel like Avengers dress Cleveland up really hard to make it look as little like Cleveland as possible.
00:06:27
Ryan
Sure.
00:06:27
Dara
um feel like they're really embracing it in a different kind of way, which is cool.
00:06:31
Ryan
Yeah, that's a great point. And they didn't really use any like Cleveland, like um skyline, like they used like the Shoreway Bridge and then like in front of Tower City and then some parking structures like he is flying around Cleveland sky.
00:06:38
Dara
No. No.
00:06:47
Shauna (she/her)
Well, we are also Germany.
00:06:48
Ryan
Yeah.
00:06:51
Shauna (she/her)
When Loki is inside and they first are confronting him, that is in the Justice Center.
00:06:53
Dara
Yeah.
00:06:57
Dara
Yeah.
00:06:58
Shauna (she/her)
And, like, I've walked up and down those stairwells that staircase.
00:06:58
Dara
Yeah.
00:07:00
Ryan
I mean, same. i Wow, I don't think I really remember that.
00:07:05
Shauna (she/her)
Oh, yeah.
00:07:05
Ryan
Great.
00:07:05
Shauna (she/her)
that So when they're in that kind of big ballroom, that's actually our courthouse. So that's kind of cool.
00:07:10
Ryan
my My least favorite place in Cleveland is the Justice Center.
00:07:10
Shauna (she/her)
um
00:07:13
Ryan
It's literally the most depressing fucking place in the entire world.
00:07:14
Shauna (she/her)
That's fair.
00:07:17
Ryan
The only thing more depressing, the Juvenile Justice Center.
00:07:17
Dara
Yeah.
00:07:19
Ryan
Like, way worse.
00:07:21
Dara
Yeah.
00:07:21
Shauna (she/her)
That's fair.
00:07:23
Dara
Yeah.
00:07:23
Ryan
um But hard pivot away from juvenile justice. Let's talk about how gay the ad campaign is between ah Superman and Lex. Have have we seen, have you have you all seen these images of them posed them?
00:07:38
Shauna (she/her)
Oh, yeah.
00:07:38
Dara
Wait, no, have to look that up quick.
00:07:38
Shauna (she/her)
There...
00:07:40
Shauna (she/her)
I do love that that's a thing. i love the, like, I mean, that was always one of my favorite parts was the interplay between um what's Tom Welling and ah what was Michael Rosenbaum on Smallville.
00:07:51
Dara
Oh, yeah.
00:07:53
Ryan
Yeah, that guy.
00:07:54
Shauna (she/her)
Like, they had such great chemistry together and their friendship turned allies.
00:07:54
Ryan
Yeah.
00:07:59
Shauna (she/her)
But also, and and there's even the the element of Lena Luthor and Supergirl had their connections in the CW-verse, where, yeah, they called him Supercore, was the ship name.
00:08:08
Ryan
Oh.
00:08:09
Dara
Sure.
00:08:13
Shauna (she/her)
Mm-hmm.
00:08:14
Ryan
Supercore. Oh, like Lexcore.
00:08:17
Dara
Yeah.
00:08:18
Ryan
Got it. I just got caught up on... um the Harley Quinn cartoon, which I know probably, I think it wrapped the season months ago and Lena Luthor is the, yeah.
00:08:26
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah, we still haven't watched it either, that's saying for no...
00:08:29
Dara
No. um shit, we should do that.
00:08:31
Ryan
Lena is just a prominent character.
00:08:32
Dara
Hmm.
00:08:33
Ryan
It's not pretty, like, I don't know if maybe it has lost its zeal as a show, but, or maybe it's because I like took a break in the middle of it, but i don't know.
00:08:41
Dara
Mm-hmm.
00:08:44
Ryan
It just didn't, it didn't, it didn't stick for me this time, the season of Harley Quinn.
00:08:50
Shauna (she/her)
Well, and i think that maybe it's it's one of those things where they've had to keep changing it so much every season, where, like, the last one that we watched was like, and now she's in the Bat family, because why not?
00:09:03
Shauna (she/her)
And, like, yeah just to give a, like, artificial, like, you know, some sort of conflict between her and Poison Ivy, which I appreciate, but also, like, it's very sitcomical.
00:09:04
Ryan
Wild. So weird. And I hated a crosshair too.
00:09:13
Ryan
Sure.
00:09:14
Dara
Yeah.
00:09:16
Shauna (she/her)
And I'm glad that a show can be, can have an okay feeling fourth or fifth season because frankly not enough shows get the luxury of getting to the point of a mediocre fourth season for like however long it is
00:09:23
Dara
Yeah.
00:09:28
Ryan
Agreed.
00:09:29
Dara
That's real. And a queer show getting a fourth season, like even if it's not fantastic.
00:09:34
Ryan
And like super queer.
00:09:35
Dara
I'll take that right now. Oh, yeah.
00:09:38
Ryan
Like they be fucking on camera. Well, I mean, it's animated, but you know.
00:09:42
Dara
It's yeah.
Thunderbolts: Diversity and Themes Analysis
00:09:44
Ryan
um was somewhat related in terms of new hero media um we have seen thunderbolts as we now know it is the new avengers this is back in may we're recording in june um and i personally I'm having a hard time pulling apart the discourse of how people talked about it as a film, but then also like um acknowledge it's like one of the first like predominantly white casts and like a lot of these deviations from what Marvel has put in front of us that is not
00:10:19
Shauna (she/her)
Mm-hmm.
00:10:19
Dara
Mm-hmm.
00:10:29
Ryan
that is not as diverse as the rest of the the slate has been. Like this is, I mean, obviously Daredevil and Deadpool and Wolverine, um which again, are also the ones that have been the most positively critically reviewed.
00:10:41
Ryan
um But I can't help but wonder the connection between how much energy and attention they put into it versus how people actually receive the media.
00:10:51
Shauna (she/her)
That's a really great question. Because, you know, and that's something that, like, when you say it, I was like, oh my gosh, it absolutely is. And and i think it is such a good point to remember that the who they put on these teams does not have, they can pick and choose.
00:11:07
Shauna (she/her)
They get to choose what parts of the canon they want to use, accept, embrace. And so the fact that they went with the cast that they did in and of itself a statement.
00:11:17
Ryan
Very true.
00:11:17
Dara
And a particular statement in this moment in time too. Like nothing can be unintentional right now.
00:11:21
Ryan
Yeah.
00:11:25
Ryan
And Ghost being, i mean, I'm pretty sure Ghost is is played by a person of color. i You know, they were vaguely ethnic.
00:11:30
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah.
00:11:32
Ryan
um But you know, probably the least used character in the Thunderbolts themselves. um But I mean, at the end of the day, if the nerds watching it consumed it and actually took in the message of like loneliness as the male epidemic, um go to therapy, talk to your friends,
00:11:58
Shauna (she/her)
Go to therapy. Like, at least talk to your friends about your shit.
00:12:04
Ryan
Like, please God, let some of them have even remotely, because as a person who works really hard on my mental health and works really hard at trying to build up my community, I was like sobbing during that point.
00:12:05
Dara
Yeah. Yeah.
00:12:20
Ryan
Like at the end, this is a spoiler. I'll try to remember to put a a spoiler um warning on
00:12:22
Shauna (she/her)
ah
00:12:26
Ryan
on the episode, but it's like the middle of June and this movie came out like six weeks ago.
00:12:30
Dara
yeah
00:12:30
Ryan
So I can't imagine you listened to this podcast and also haven't seen Thunderbolt slash the new Avengers. But if you haven't spoiler um at the end of it, when, uh,
00:12:37
Shauna (she/her)
Thank you.
00:12:42
Ryan
Bob, the sentry, is being taken over by the void.
00:12:44
Dara
Thank you.
00:12:46
Ryan
um There's this moment where he's like fighting himself. He's fighting the void and the void is like slowly taking over. And then Yelena runs up behind him and just puts her arms around him.
00:12:58
Ryan
And like then the rest of the team runs in and puts their arms around them. I could not help but like look to my left and my right at my little freaky fucking friends that are my Thunderbolts.
00:13:11
Ryan
And, you know, the the move was coming up. And as Shauna can attest, anything that had any emotional weight to it took me down for like the last six to eight weeks of me living in Cleveland.
00:13:24
Ryan
But watching this like literal foretelling of like it is really my community and specifically my chosen family that have
00:13:31
Shauna (she/her)
Thank
00:13:33
Ryan
fought off the fucking void in my life it just was it it was so beautiful to see and i don't even really remember the scent i i read the century storyline with the void and don't really remember how it ends but however it ends the movie was better like that was it was just as it was so beautiful
00:13:48
Dara
Yeah.
Sabrina Carpenter's Feminism and Music Comparisons
00:13:54
Shauna (she/her)
Gosh, it really was. Like, honestly, it was one of my favorite Marvel movies of late. Like, I really enjoyed it. I thought it had a really, great like you said, it had great heart. I thought most of the characters were really engaging.
00:14:04
Shauna (she/her)
And frankly, anytime I get more of Yelena, I just want it because she is fantastic.
00:14:09
Dara
yeah yeah
00:14:11
Ryan
yeah
00:14:11
Shauna (she/her)
I still need to watch Black Widow. And it's one of those, like, yeah, I know.
00:14:14
Dara
who
00:14:15
Shauna (she/her)
like Like, I figured out, like, the Black Widow.
00:14:16
Dara
Not intentional.
00:14:18
Shauna (she/her)
Well, like it was at first because I was like, why do I want a Black Widow movie now at the point that it came out? But that's like, but now I'm like, I know that it like is different after I saw Hawkeye.
00:14:23
Ryan
Right, it was great point.
00:14:27
Shauna (she/her)
And i was like, all right, so I do actually need to see this that I just haven't had a chance to like, sit down and watch it. But it's on my list of things to do.
00:14:34
Dara
yeah
00:14:35
Ryan
It is a really fun movie that would have made me cared about Black Widow a lot longer, but ah a long time ago.
00:14:46
Ryan
um Cause I mean, I've said it a million times, I never really cared about the Avengers. It was always the X-Men for me.
00:14:53
Dara
Oh yeah.
00:14:53
Ryan
And so when the Avengers came out, I was like, okay, so the girl, the only girl I have to root for is Scarlett Johansson as a spy, like, with no,
00:15:02
Shauna (she/her)
With no powers, with no, like, or like all right.
00:15:04
Ryan
with no
00:15:04
Shauna (she/her)
Okay.
00:15:06
Ryan
And a bad wig.
00:15:06
Dara
Stereotypical sexism, seduction, energy, like.
00:15:09
Ryan
Exactly. Exactly. my oh my god, I cannot wait. Because there is a joke that starts in Black Widow that has continued to run about the superhero pose. um Yelena absolutely clocks Natasha doing the superhero landing.
00:15:24
Dara
Yes.
00:15:27
Ryan
She's like, why did... I wish, and it's even funnier in the accent. She's like, why every time do you land, do you have to do that stupid pose? Like, can't you just land on your feet?
00:15:34
Dara
I love that.
00:15:36
Ryan
It's so funny. It's so funny. um And speaking of hot blondes, Yelena, Sabrina Carpenter discourse, which was that a typo when you sent disc horse to me, Shauna, or, okay.
00:15:48
Shauna (she/her)
No, it was not. it was it was there was a... i just couldn't like call it discourse because I was like, it's so just like a bunch of people talking on the internet, as with so many things.
00:15:55
Ryan
It's a headache. Yeah.
00:15:58
Shauna (she/her)
and i And I think it really spoke to like where i stand on it.
00:16:01
Dara
Thank you.
00:16:02
Shauna (she/her)
So in case you're unaware, she recently put out an album cover that said...
00:16:03
Ryan
Sure.
00:16:07
Shauna (she/her)
that was called Man's Best Friend, and it had a masculine person in a suit holding her hair as she looks up down on her knees. And everyone was either up in arms or being like, you know, Yaz Queen slay feminist, i hashtag feminist icon.
00:16:27
Shauna (she/her)
And there was like very little between the two, even though I actually feel like I'm actually pretty between the two, because I think there's good arguments to be made for both of like, because I think not everything has to be ah thing.
00:16:34
Ryan
Same.
00:16:34
Dara
Thank you.
00:16:38
Shauna (she/her)
Like she can just exist as popcorn, you know, sexually charged porn.
00:16:39
Ryan
Sure.
00:16:45
Shauna (she/her)
you know, imagery affairs, like, because it is what it is. Like, it's, and her music really isn't even that, like, scandalous, at least, like, from...
00:16:49
Ryan
Yeah.
00:16:56
Ryan
I'm not goingnna im sorry I sorry didn't mean to sigh so loudly i just do have really strong thoughts, but I want you to I want you to finish your your your intro please.
00:16:58
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah.
00:17:02
Shauna (she/her)
Oh, yeah. And, like, you can, and I know you have strong thoughts on Sabrina Carpenter, but I'm, like, I think I'm mostly just very, like, whatever. She is who she is. Like, I think she's just, like,
00:17:15
Shauna (she/her)
She doesn't do it for me, but also I'm probably not the target audience, let's be honest, at the end of the day.
00:17:20
Dara
Yeah.
00:17:20
Shauna (she/her)
and so like but But she's fine. like I like doing the espresso dance in Fortnite, and that's good enough for me. like
00:17:29
Dara
Yeah, you do.
00:17:29
Ryan
So before I jump onto my fucking soapbox, Dara, are you invested at all in the world of Sabrina Carpenter?
00:17:38
Dara
Not even a little, truthfully.
00:17:40
Ryan
Got it.
00:17:40
Dara
I'm like, I have seen the discourse. um I know what the discourse meme is that looks like a disc on horse.
00:17:42
Ryan
Sure.
00:17:47
Dara
But that's all i got.
00:17:47
Ryan
Yeah.
00:17:48
Dara
Yeah.
00:17:49
Ryan
so I am a Sabrina Carpenter fan. I wouldn't say I'm like a super fan. um She had a couple of singles.
00:17:59
Shauna (she/her)
do Do our superfans have names? Is there like a term?
00:18:02
Ryan
god Sluts. I don't know. I feel like the people, they would just call themselves sluts. Like something, i don't know. Savvy, savvy cats, something fucking Gen Z and stupid.
00:18:12
Shauna (she/her)
For nails, for the carpenter, or something like...
00:18:15
Ryan
Jesuses. They're all, they're all messiahs. They're the messiahs, the followers of Carpenter. they are the messiahs oh no they would be the apostles sabrina carpenter's apostles um so i really like sabrina carpenter i have had this sort of feeling ever since espresso went really big and her styling changed from from what i've
00:18:21
Dara
Yeah.
00:18:24
Dara
yeah
00:18:24
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah.
00:18:26
Shauna (she/her)
There we go.
00:18:41
Ryan
very little that I knew, just like a regular pop girl to this sort of like va-va-voom, 60s, big hair, big tits, but still kind of conservative in their bathing suit.
00:18:54
Ryan
Like there is this sort of, exactly.
00:18:57
Shauna (she/her)
A one piece that shows off the tits.
00:19:01
Ryan
There is this sort of like progressive, regressive, contemporary trad wife nature about her
00:19:01
Dara
Yeah.
00:19:07
Ryan
because everything about her is supposed to be subversive. Like it's supposed to be shocking that she talks so openly about sex. And she also, you know, is in charge of of her her, she has autonomy, it seems in in a lot of ways and it's fun and it's flirty.
00:19:27
Ryan
um But then you have these other things like, you know, again, the kind of the pseudo conservative way that she is styled um and she has the song Juno which is literally about like letting a man lock you down by pregnancy like the song is a fucking bop until you listen to the lyrics and it's like I might let you lock me down for life like it's it gives very trad wife like I'm
00:19:56
Shauna (she/her)
Hmm.
00:19:58
Ryan
i I love my man and, but I want to fuck him for my pleasure, not his type shit. Like I'm subservient, which is why that, um, uh, the man's best friend album cover has this weird tinge to it because she is not portraying like powerhouse.
00:20:17
Ryan
I'm, uh, the boss. Like it gives very like, someone, someone described her as like her boop, no, someone described her as like, you who boys kind of vibe.
00:20:32
Shauna (she/her)
a
00:20:32
Ryan
And like, you like it gives very, very that.
00:20:33
Dara
Thank
00:20:37
Ryan
um
00:20:38
Dara
you.
00:20:38
Ryan
And that is why i'm I'm, I'm kind of torn about it. But then I also had this deeply head ass, like stoner realization to which I have made several people like listen.
00:20:50
Ryan
um But in this era, and I think last summer was really kind of like the peak of Sabrina Chappell and Charlie XCX being the Powerpuff Girls of pop music, but s Sabrina Carpenter feels very much so like a response to Chappell-Rhone.
00:21:00
Dara
Oh, yeah.
00:21:03
Shauna (she/her)
you
00:21:09
Ryan
Like, we know that the waves of feminism and even just like progress, there's always a response to it. So Donald Trump was the response to us electing our first Black president. Like,
00:21:22
Ryan
The way that Chapel Rhone has situated herself as a queer woman who is a queer artist performing for queer people, specifically queer women, like Chapel Rhone is accessible to everyone, but she makes her shit for queer women.
00:21:39
Dara
Yeah.
00:21:41
Ryan
And Sabrina Carpenter being sort of like the counter to that, like, you don't want to be gay. Ew, girls, they're so cute and pretty and feminine, but I need pee-pees. Like, it gives very, you can't have chapel rown without a Sabrina Carpenter being formed at the exact same time.
00:22:02
Ryan
Which, in the case of pop music, is not bad. But how they are used is what is frustrating.
00:22:09
Shauna (she/her)
And I think that's a really fair, and yeah, no, we go on, Dara.
00:22:09
Dara
Well, and it's...
00:22:13
Dara
No, as I say, it's funny because I wasn't even thinking of there as being like a straight girl, all you know, counter to Chapel. I've always thought of Orville Peck as the the counter just because we we saw them kind of back to back.
00:22:27
Dara
So I'm like, oh yeah, here's the girl version, here's the guy version. This is great as a genderqueer person, like here for all the gay music.
00:22:30
Ryan
Right. Right.
00:22:33
Dara
And like, oh yeah, of course there's great answers to it.
00:22:33
Ryan
Right.
00:22:35
Dara
Like...
00:22:36
Ryan
Always. Always.
Simone Biles and Trans Athlete Support
00:22:40
Ryan
um the The next item on the the general banter is Simone Biles flies too close to the sun. um Shauna, can you prompt us?
00:22:50
Shauna (she/her)
so recently, you know, Olympian gold medalist Simone Biles came out and said is a big, like she came out what felt like very much in support of like trans high school athletes who are being attacked by riley Gaines, who is famous for finishing in was a fifth place tying with Leah Thomas.
00:23:09
Dara
Yeah. Yeah.
00:23:11
Shauna (she/her)
And so she's now made it her life mission to destroy trans women generally as you do.
00:23:11
Dara
yeah
00:23:15
Ryan
Right.
00:23:16
Shauna (she/her)
And so, Like, you know, talk about like your best years of her life for college. You're like, I'm going to live in this moment forever. So she's decided to do that. And she's just a real shithead about it all. She's just a terrible.
00:23:30
Shauna (she/her)
And Simone Biles was very cutting and being like, you're picking on high school kids. Like, I don't know what the answer is, but like, you know, hey, back down. And then she made this kind of like snide comment about how like, if anyone looks like like a man, like pick on someone your own size, it would be ah guy because she's a very broad-shouldered woman because she's a swimmer.
00:23:45
Ryan
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:23:51
Shauna (she/her)
And if you look at it and I think that is the thing is if you look at these swimmers, The majority all have these like very broad shoulders because that is what you're exercising. And it just like, i was like, you could transvestigate so many of them up to it including like there are countless times where people think that Riley Gaines is the trans one, which is very funny to me online.
00:24:10
Shauna (she/her)
But like, but, but it's more, but at the end of the day, it doesn't serve anyone to do. And it was a unnecessary take. And so she decided to apologize because, you know, which I get, like, I don't want to stoop this low in how I engage.
00:24:25
Shauna (she/her)
That would be fair. But in doing so, she also made sure to say, well, you know what, like, you're right. Fairness is very important. And that's, literally the number one talking point is well you can't ignore have inclusion at the sake of fairness as though those are the two sides one only wants inclusion and one only wants fairness as though the little argument for trans inclusion is that is both fair and inclusive because that is i think
00:24:38
Ryan
Mm-hmm.
00:24:39
Dara
Yeah.
00:24:43
Ryan
Mm-hmm.
00:24:55
Dara
yeah
00:24:57
Shauna (she/her)
part of the crux that often gets ignored because nuance gets lost in all of this but by ceding that ground she then just only opened herself up for both more talking points like literally in riley gaine's pregnancy announcement she made a crack at s simone biles because that is just the world that she exists in that nothing can just be everything has to be part of the culture war even her own fucking pregnancy because Everything's terrible.
00:25:24
Shauna (she/her)
So, and don't, I think honestly, the way that s Simone Biles apologized, the way that she seeded those kind of talking points and even said like, well, don't know if we need to have a separate league in her first post, which was like immediately everyone's like ears went up because if you ever hear the argument, there should be a separate league for trans people.
00:25:24
Dara
That's just sad.
00:25:43
Shauna (she/her)
Just know that i playing in multiple queer leagues,
00:25:44
Ryan
Yeah.
00:25:48
Shauna (she/her)
you know at both national and local levels, don't even think I could form a team for any sport with the other trans athletes, both trans men and trans women in them.
00:26:00
Dara
yeah
00:26:00
Shauna (she/her)
Couldn't even do that, let alone a whole league.
00:26:14
Shauna (she/her)
And it is so frustrating to me when that is made as an argument.
00:26:15
Ryan
so
00:26:18
Ryan
did So was Simone's comment, say like I i gotta to be honest, I only read like up to the part where she shaded her. I don't even think I knew she apologized. um So I guess my first thought is like, how do we feel about her being shady? Like obviously she stooped to someone else's level, but I mean, Simone is not a, what what what were your what what are your thoughts on just her taking that final dig to begin with.
00:26:46
Shauna (she/her)
I mean, I'm... Look, I think that stooping to a certain kind of... Like, mocking people for their gendered appearance is, you know, like... You know, it's the, like, Batman breaking... Like, this is the tool of the enemy, kind of, like... And I kind of generally feel that way about it.
00:27:05
Shauna (she/her)
That, like, yes, it's like, okay, hee hee.
00:27:05
Ryan
Sure.
00:27:08
Shauna (she/her)
And, like... But, like, I think... And I think there is something to be said for acknowledging the wide breadth of ways that all women look. And that there are very clocky cis women who are just as valid.
00:27:23
Shauna (she/her)
And I think that in many ways...
00:27:23
Ryan
Right. Yeah.
00:27:27
Shauna (she/her)
And I think acknowledging that is one thing, but that wasn't really what Simone was doing. She was just trying to be shady and like, but whatever.
00:27:30
Ryan
right
00:27:33
Shauna (she/her)
She's allowed to be frustrated by everything because it's a very frustrating situation. And at the end of the day, her initial point, you're being cruel to children, is the part that got lost in it all. And I think that's what's frustrating most.
00:27:43
Ryan
yeah
00:27:45
Dara
And I would add to you that, like in this moment, we need allies across all movement spaces. And not all those allies are going to be perfect.
00:27:54
Ryan
Right.
00:27:54
Dara
Like... at the At the end of the day, you know, Simone Biles is the most decorated gymnast in history. Not just female gymnast, but, like, gymnast in general.
00:28:02
Shauna (she/her)
Hmm.
00:28:03
Dara
Like, she's fucking awesome. And if she wants to weigh in on the trans sports debate and be like, don't hurt children, like, I'm going to take her in whatever other thing she didn't say perfectly. Like, yes, thank you for your support.
00:28:16
Dara
Like, we can come at you for better wording in the future. Like...
00:28:20
Ryan
right
00:28:20
Shauna (she/her)
Well, and I do wish that her team had reached out to Atheed Ally, had reached out to a lot of these orgs who hadn't gotten the information because it is there.
00:28:25
Dara
Okay.
00:28:30
Shauna (she/her)
And if she really wanted to come out in support, but and I think that's where I think a lot of people were frustrated because it's, you're right. Like I'm, so I'm, I, and I think that there was, I think there absolutely was too harsh criticism afterwards of Simone Biles' post-apology.
00:28:46
Shauna (she/her)
And with that being said, i also think that we've seen the carpet pulled out from us enough times as we think that you know where you know we think we have an ally who just pulls the football away.
00:28:58
Shauna (she/her)
like And I think that is the fear that she's like, oh maybe she did her own research, which is to say that the right wing people with a lot more money...
00:28:59
Dara
Yeah. Yeah.
00:29:07
Shauna (she/her)
came in at her and ended up now like I think there is that worry that she's ultimately going to advocate for our exclusion because at the end of the day your your argument is you should exclude us but nicely that's not really being an ally
00:29:23
Dara
yeah
00:29:25
Ryan
I do and i I think the point that Dara made is kind of where I was landing because I giggled when I saw her her comment um and you know I think because I want to see her i want i have a lot of bias for in her favor i just consumed it as the thing that I think we were talking about which is like it's not a point to be lost that this bitch that has a lot of nerve to talk about who can and should be participating in what sports also does not fit the standard typical definition of the body type that a cis woman is quote supposed to have.
00:30:06
Ryan
So like, shouldn't you be arguing the other side girl? Shouldn't you be like fighting for the other cause? But that's not what Simone said.
00:30:13
Dara
Yeah.
00:30:14
Ryan
And that is um disappointing. yeah,
00:30:19
Ryan
Black women specifically always get a couple of like bonus points for me in terms of the grace that I will extend because they often start at a deficit in terms of how quickly people will critique them.
00:30:22
Dara
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
00:30:29
Dara
Yeah.
00:30:32
Ryan
um And so, you know, that's one of those moments where I'm like, oh man, and I wish I had a number. I would just like send her a quick text, be like, hey, I have a better way that you could have said that and we can probably turn it into something even shadier.
00:30:43
Ryan
um But like, great job, you are on the right side.
00:30:44
Shauna (she/her)
Right, because apologizing to this woman only gives her more credibility at the end of the day.
00:30:49
Ryan
Right. Right.
00:30:49
Dara
Yeah.
00:30:49
Shauna (she/her)
And I know that wasn't the point, but she doesn't deserve your apology because any mean thing you said to her, even if it's not what you would want to say as like a person, it pales in comparison to the cruelty that she does on a daily basis.
00:30:54
Dara
No.
00:31:04
Shauna (she/her)
And you know what i'm not in unfair like i don't I'm not a big, like we should be cruel to people, but like again, people are going to do what they're going to do.
00:31:12
Ryan
right
00:31:13
Shauna (she/her)
But I just really, she did not deserve the legitimacy of even of backing down off of her point. And I feel like that's where I wish she had just stuck to it Because I think then, even if it was a little shaky in the air, that would have helped her stick the landing.
00:31:19
Dara
no
00:31:29
Ryan
Come on gymnast, gymnast references. um
00:31:33
Ryan
the
RuPaul's Drag Race and Trans Visibility
00:31:33
Ryan
final the final um general banter talking point is um your little family is getting caught up on old seasons of drag race because I'm going to say it.
00:31:45
Ryan
Me, Oxy and Ryan fucking put those hooks in Shauna for drag race and just like dragged her behind us.
00:31:50
Dara
Oh yeah, super hard.
00:31:52
Ryan
Let's go, bitch.
00:31:53
Ryan
So tell, tell me how much you love drag race, please.
00:31:54
Shauna (she/her)
really, really dead.
00:31:56
Ryan
I love it.
00:31:57
Shauna (she/her)
No, i do. I've really grown to appreciate and enjoy it.
00:31:59
Dara
Yeah.
00:32:01
Shauna (she/her)
like the art And I've always loved the art of it, and I've always found the entertainment aspect, especially when it's funny.
00:32:04
Ryan
course.
00:32:07
Shauna (she/her)
like comedy like Comedy queens and kings have long been favorites of mine, personally. And so seeing them get to shine like Jinx Monsoon and like seeing the evolution there as it's gone forward.
00:32:14
Dara
Yeah.
00:32:21
Shauna (she/her)
So we started at season three, and i am now on season nine.
00:32:25
Ryan
Perfectly reasonable.
00:32:26
Shauna (she/her)
So like, and like, ah like I've just been running through watched All Stars 1 and it is so fascinating.
00:32:30
Dara
Yeah. and
00:32:33
Shauna (she/her)
And I love that like we're now seeing the people who are on this most current season of All Stars. Like, and what I think is most fascinating for me in this journey, as you know, as we are two trans people watching this is seeing how the evolution of transness on Drag Race has gone because it went from being very like,
00:32:51
Ryan
Yeah.
00:32:53
Shauna (she/her)
we are the men's and we are not, we are just impersonators. We are just this, like, you know, again, like this real, like we're to, and it's so like thinking back, cause like I came out over a decade ago and like back when I came out, which is back in season three, cause like literally like when Carmen Carrera was an egg on drag race, talking about how she doesn't like boogers, like,
00:33:01
Dara
Yeah. Yeah.
00:33:16
Ryan
yeah
00:33:17
Dara
yeah
00:33:17
Shauna (she/her)
which I still think the like no booger shirt is a really funny thing. Like, but also like, I don't I feel like there's like, there is like, again, there's like a meanness to it that I'm like, I don't love, but also there's something kind of funny about it too.
00:33:26
Ryan
Yeah. Yeah.
00:33:29
Shauna (she/her)
Just the same.
00:33:29
Dara
know
00:33:30
Shauna (she/her)
And that like, But, you know, who because again, she was kind of the the winners were all heels. And again, because it goes back to that one thing that I showed you from Dropout where like how drag race is a lot like pro wrestling and seeing that interplay is so fascinating.
00:33:37
Ryan
Right.
00:33:44
Ryan
Oh, yeah.
00:33:44
Dara
Yeah.
00:33:46
Shauna (she/her)
But so looking at the like how the transness of it all has evolved from like the, you know, the you've got male segment that worse worse And like, like between like the use of that and calling RuPaul said the word ladyboy lot, a lot.
00:34:07
Ryan
A lot.
00:34:07
Shauna (she/her)
a lot
00:34:08
Ryan
She has a song.
00:34:09
Dara
yeah
00:34:10
Ryan
Her album
00:34:10
Dara
Horrifying quantity.
00:34:12
Ryan
Her album, she had that album in particular, um i would have to look, it has a couple of bangers on it, like Click Clack. And like, it was like her reintroduction as a recording artist.
00:34:20
Dara
yeah
00:34:24
Ryan
um But it has that song. And it also has a song called Tea Chaser, but with the slur. And it is absolutely wild that we were all just like, whew.
00:34:39
Shauna (she/her)
And I'm sure she had no idea. No, like, and again, like, there was even, like, the joke from, like, a few seasons ago like, what's the difference between a drag queen and a trans person is, like, surgery.
00:34:51
Shauna (she/her)
And, like, and I was, like, again, like, just so nuts.
00:34:53
Dara
Fucking medicalist garbage.
00:34:56
Shauna (she/her)
Right. Well, that's not even medicalist. It's just not getting it. It's literally just like, this is like, if you get SRS, like that is the, like, the difference is, and it's just so un-understanding.
00:34:59
Dara
Well, that too.
00:34:59
Ryan
Yeah. Yep.
00:35:00
Dara
Yeah. yeah
00:35:06
Shauna (she/her)
And I know that like, he's grown a lot, like, but also like just the seeing that evolution and the, like, like the one, the very famous, like, is this a drag queen or is this a, um, cis woman?
00:35:10
Ryan
yeah
00:35:21
Shauna (she/her)
Like is not, was not a part of, it doesn't air on Paramount. They pulled it.
00:35:25
Ryan
yeah yeah
00:35:27
Shauna (she/her)
So, and that was like where it finally was like, they were like, okay, we need to change this. And I think that was where, but seeing so many eggy trans women and like, I'll be honest, like part of it is like being like, okay, she trans?
00:35:40
Dara
So many.
00:35:43
Shauna (she/her)
And like, cause you know what? Like i will watch it. I'll say like, and sure enough, I'll look up and like, oh yeah, so she's so totally transitioned. to Okay, cool, cool.
00:35:51
Ryan
Yeah.
00:35:51
Shauna (she/her)
Love that for her.
00:35:53
Dara
you
00:35:53
Shauna (she/her)
Like,
00:35:53
Dara
A body queen who doesn't want a pad. Yeah.
00:35:56
Ryan
Right.
00:35:57
Dara
like yeah
00:35:57
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah, it's almost always this like, oh, you just look like a very pretty woman and you always love your body in a way that is like the importance of the natural body versus the importance of giving the figure.
00:36:09
Shauna (she/her)
And I'm like, that is absolutely what gives it away for me.
00:36:09
Dara
yeah
00:36:12
Ryan
So before, i want to hear Dara's response too, but a couple of things.
00:36:12
Dara
yeah
00:36:16
Ryan
um There's a Cleveland queen that was notoriously a does not pad queen who has since come out and is now, you know, out as a trans woman. um But Shauna, you used Eggie.
00:36:29
Ryan
um And ah I was hanging out at the beach with my friend Ryan the other day and he was, we were
00:36:34
Dara
You
00:36:36
Ryan
I don't remember what we were talking about. Oh, he he's a therapist and um was talking about how, you know, he learns a lot of slang from younger queer people. And he was like, yeah, i just learned this expression to get your egg cracked. And I was like, huh, I already know what that means. So, Shano, um what does eggy mean? And what is getting your egg cracked? Or or Dara, either of you.
00:36:56
Ryan
What does it mean to to to have your egg cracked or to be eggy?
00:37:00
Dara
and you can add that.
00:37:01
Shauna (she/her)
Well, to be to have your egg cracked is the realization that, oh, maybe I'm actually trans. And thus to be eggy is to be in this pre-transition sense of self where you see the glimpses, where you see like, oh there's something going on here that's not quite cisgender about you.
00:37:20
Dara
Yep.
00:37:22
Shauna (she/her)
Because so many, and like, and again, that's the other, is the way that the language is very like, ah right man all men, all right, we're going to be the best women we can be, men. Men, men, men.
00:37:33
Ryan
Mm-hmm.
00:37:33
Shauna (she/her)
and like, it's so fascinating, like, because that just wasn't there in this most recent season. And and I'm very curious as I continue my watch through when that change happens. Because um you you really are starting to see it in the way that they do different challenges.
00:37:47
Shauna (she/her)
and But there's still so much of that real, like, this is what we do. Like, oh, you your parents don't know you're a drag queen. like And it's so, like, and, like, as we're dealing with, like, that era of, you know, of where we were in trans culture, where it was really, again, this is, like, mainstream gay media.
00:37:55
Ryan
Right.
00:38:00
Dara
Yeah.
00:38:07
Shauna (she/her)
And there was still that much, like,
00:38:08
Ryan
Right.
00:38:10
Shauna (she/her)
and i see I say ignorance not as a pejorative, but just literally like just in the unawareness of how trans people might be participating in their shows.
00:38:16
Ryan
Yeah.
00:38:24
Shauna (she/her)
and Even as someone literally came out on their show.
00:38:28
Ryan
Right.
00:38:28
Shauna (she/her)
and you know Obviously, Carmen Carrera very then famously transitioned and then kind of got you know like was on the exile list for it, and many or for speaking up about
00:38:36
Ryan
Right.
00:38:39
Shauna (she/her)
Rue's treatment of transness and how co-opting a lot of transness in terms of ideas.
00:38:41
Dara
Oh, yeah.
00:38:45
Shauna (she/her)
You know, and like the way that like Misal Vashaz talks about padding all the time and like you really need to pad out your figure.
00:38:49
Ryan
Right. right
00:38:51
Shauna (she/her)
You can't be showing up looking like a boy. But also hormones are age are performance enhancing drugs.
00:38:54
Ryan
right
00:38:58
Ryan
right yep daryl what's your what's your your take oh totally like you go ahead
00:38:58
Shauna (she/her)
Padding is okay. Can't take estrogen. Which is just fascinating. But also so many people could get plastic surgery too.
00:39:07
Dara
oh yeah No, I'm like, it's, it's also interesting because in addition to the number of queens that have, you know, come out after the show as binary trans women, it's also interesting how many are also non-binary people too.
00:39:22
Ryan
yeah
00:39:23
Dara
And the different ways that that's reflected in their drag, both what they did on the show versus what their drag looks like now, if you creep on their socials and it just, it's, it's a very interesting like community snapshot through time for sure.
00:39:38
Dara
Um,
00:39:39
Ryan
Yeah.
00:39:39
Shauna (she/her)
Like, Jinx Monsoon is a great example.
00:39:40
Dara
I see.
00:39:41
Shauna (she/her)
like
00:39:41
Dara
Oh my gosh. Yeah.
00:39:43
Shauna (she/her)
Like, really like saw herself as this like funny little clown, like and didn't really take herself seriously, and now is you know an actor, has been on Broadway.
00:39:56
Shauna (she/her)
And i also, i funny enough, met Jinx Monsoon well before I knew who she was. and so I thought that was neat, because she gave the medals out at the Gay Games in Cleveland.
00:40:04
Ryan
yeah
00:40:06
Shauna (she/her)
had no idea.
00:40:06
Dara
Yeah.
00:40:08
Shauna (she/her)
It is how I spoiled that Bianca Del Rio would win the next season too, looking that up.
00:40:08
Ryan
There's,
00:40:11
Ryan
oh.
00:40:11
Shauna (she/her)
But that's neither here nor there.
00:40:13
Ryan
And, you know, it's some of these things, it's like you just, ah you you, like you said, you knew Bob was going to win even before you saw Bob's season and knowing that Bob was the winner because like Bob is arguably one of the most prominent figures from Drag Race that like has used their platform in very interesting ways.
00:40:19
Dara
Yeah.
00:40:29
Dara
Oh, yeah.
00:40:35
Ryan
um There's a couple of things.
00:40:36
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah, because if she is like Bob didn't win, I would be like, what are we doing here? was just so clearly...
00:40:40
Dara
Yeah.
00:40:40
Ryan
Yeah.
00:40:42
Shauna (she/her)
like But I mean, honestly, the same way with Bianca Del Rio. It was like, oh, you are just so clearly head and shoulders above everyone else around you because you are just that much funnier.
00:40:44
Ryan
Sure.
00:40:51
Shauna (she/her)
And...
00:40:51
Dara
I mean, Anya too, for that matter, in terms of standouts throughout the season.
00:40:51
Shauna (she/her)
it was
00:40:54
Ryan
Totally. And Saphira Cristal, which you haven't gotten to yet, but that's a...
00:40:54
Shauna (she/her)
Absolutely.
00:40:58
Ryan
that's a There's, so there's a couple of things that I wanted to point out. You skipped season two, which has the winner, Tyra Sanchez, but you will never see her or hear about her because she is actually an exiled queen.
00:41:09
Shauna (she/her)
Good.
00:41:14
Ryan
um RuPaul does not acknowledge her. I think the only time we have ever seen her back in connection to Drag Race was when they did like ah for season 10, they showed like all the winners like through from one up until 10. Yeah.
00:41:31
Ryan
um And that was like the last time I think she was probably even on like connected to RuPaul.
00:41:37
Dara
Yeah.
00:41:37
Ryan
But Tyra Sanchez is kind of a shitty person. and she said a lot of shitty things, ah both against RuPaul, but then also just kind of like I think about the franchise. um But the other thing, i can't wait till you get to the All-Stars season um that is All-Stars All Winners and Jinx is on it.
00:41:59
Ryan
And they're these are not spoilers because you know she wins.
00:42:02
Dara
yeah
00:42:02
Ryan
um But they during their Snatch Game, there's a very funny moment where Jinx references the old um the old theme song that ends with, me the best drag queen or May the best woman win. whatever Whatever the old one is.
00:42:21
Ryan
And another contestant corrects her and says, they changed it to drag queen. And it's really, really funny. And i you have to text me the second you watch it because it will take you down.
00:42:30
Shauna (she/her)
and Very true. Okay.
Deep Dive into Chasing Amy
00:42:32
Ryan
It will take you down.
00:42:32
Dara
no
00:42:33
Shauna (she/her)
like I can't, I cannot wait. Like, and that's where, ah I'm so excited for that.
00:42:35
Ryan
It's a great season.
00:42:38
Shauna (she/her)
But like, that's just it is like, yeah, I noticed Tyra doesn't show up and like the stops, I think maybe like, we're like, and they to like, and here's all of the winners to come congratulate you.
00:42:47
Ryan
Right.
00:42:48
Shauna (she/her)
And now it's like,
00:42:48
Ryan
Yeah, they won't be on a stage anymore, that's why.
00:42:51
Shauna (she/her)
right. Like, well, and I mean, I know like Sharon, like I didn't watch season four because I also know Sharon Needle sucks.
00:42:55
Ryan
god. Yeah, she sucks a lot.
00:42:56
Shauna (she/her)
And so, yeah.
00:42:57
Dara
She's racist as shit.
00:42:58
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah.
00:42:59
Ryan
Mm-hmm. Out loud. So um let's jump into our topic du jour, Chasing Amy.
00:43:08
Ryan
So Dara, Shauna and I have done a couple of episodes now talking about our connection to Kevin Smith films, but what is yours?
00:43:16
Dara
ah
00:43:17
Ryan
How did you come to like Chasing Amy, but you know, Kevin Smith's films in general?
00:43:24
Dara
Yeah, I mean, that's all Shauna's fault. um
00:43:29
Shauna (she/her)
So for backstory, Derek and I have been dating since we were 16.
00:43:29
Dara
Great. Yeah.
00:43:30
Ryan
A memoir.
00:43:34
Shauna (she/her)
And so...
00:43:34
Dara
Yeah.
00:43:34
Ryan
And you are now 30 40 years old.
00:43:37
Dara
30 or 40 years old.
00:43:37
Shauna (she/her)
Correct.
00:43:38
Dara
um
00:43:38
Ryan
Mm-hmm.
00:43:39
Dara
But yes, so I'm not sure if Chasing Amy was the first Kevin Smith film that we watched together. I feel like it was. I remember being, ah sitting in a uncomfortable rocking chair that was wood at my parents house watching chasing amy on a small television um as my first i remember it as the first kevin smith film um and she was just so pumped for us to watch this um and it was uh definitely a iconic experience for and who we were in that moment in time um
00:44:17
Shauna (she/her)
Well, especially, I think, given the backstory of who we, know, are you know who we were from the outside at the time as well, because this is very obviously pre-transition for both of us.
00:44:25
Ryan
R. Yeah.
00:44:28
Dara
Yeah.
00:44:32
Ryan
Very eggy of you.
00:44:32
Shauna (she/her)
And yes, and so i you know like looking at me as I started dating this out lesbian who was then literally not unlike the movie, shunned from their friends for dating me.
00:44:50
Dara
Yeah.
00:44:52
Shauna (she/her)
And so literally the plot of the movie happened in their life.
00:44:56
Dara
yeah
00:44:56
Shauna (she/her)
And it was...
00:44:57
Ryan
when you When you all first got together?
00:44:57
Dara
One of whom came out as trans also years later. but
00:45:01
Ryan
Wait, we talked at the same time.
00:45:01
Shauna (she/her)
It's true.
00:45:02
Ryan
What did you say, Darren?
00:45:03
Dara
Oh, I was like, one of said ah lesbian friends who also came out as trans masculine years later.
00:45:10
Ryan
Yeah. So, what Dara, were you out as a lesbian?
00:45:11
Dara
As you do.
00:45:14
Dara
Oh, yeah, I came...
00:45:15
Ryan
Okay. Okay.
00:45:16
Dara
When did it? Yeah. I'm like, I came out as a lesbian two years before restarting, three years before restarting, something like that.
00:45:23
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah, so probably, what, eighth grade?
00:45:24
Ryan
Huh.
00:45:26
Dara
Yeah. Yeah.
00:45:28
Shauna (she/her)
And so, yeah, so when I met you, i used to say, i used to think I was the exception, but it turns out I was the rule.
00:45:34
Ryan
Yeah.
00:45:34
Shauna (she/her)
And so, yeah.
00:45:36
Dara
Yeah.
00:45:36
Shauna (she/her)
And so the very, like...
00:45:38
Ryan
Except is it really a rule if that's no longer the word that we would use to describe the connection between the two of you? Like it was the rule at the time, maybe.
00:45:49
Dara
Oh, yeah. I mean, she's just making this joke for a couple decades now.
00:45:49
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah, exactly, yeah.
00:45:53
Ryan
Yeah, it's pretty solid too.
00:45:54
Shauna (she/her)
Absolutely. oh yeah, no, I've got it like, you know, because we've been together for over, yeah, being together for over 20 years and four genders.
00:45:55
Dara
Yeah.
00:45:55
Ryan
It's pretty solid.
00:45:57
Dara
And now she's moved on to, go on, make your joke.
00:46:03
Ryan
Yeah.
00:46:03
Shauna (she/her)
So...
00:46:03
Ryan
Oh ah my God.
00:46:07
Dara
Which I will make us a cross stitch at some point.
00:46:09
Ryan
That is truly so fucking gay. And um the cross stitch, once you said cross stitch too, I actually kind of lost whatever I was going to say.
00:46:15
Dara
Yeah.
00:46:20
Ryan
And I was like, God, it just got gayer.
00:46:21
Dara
I'm sorry.
00:46:23
Ryan
Like somehow it got gayer by you saying that.
00:46:26
Dara
Yeah.
00:46:26
Ryan
Um, But yeah, this, I think I've heard you say that, Shauna, that um like it ran kind of parallel to your life experiences. But I don't think I really like remembered that while I was watching it.
00:46:40
Ryan
And now like, okay, we should just get into it because i that scene in particular with Alyssa and her friends is really, really, really
00:46:44
Dara
yeah
00:46:50
Ryan
really
00:46:52
Dara
yeah
00:46:53
Ryan
Interesting. like i'm I'm not a lesbian, so don't, i havet I have thoughts on it, but I don't have opinions on it. So, Shauna, kick us off with the first the first intro.
00:47:05
Shauna (she/her)
Okay, so, um and, ah you know, honestly, I'm just going to go off with my kind of, so this movie stars, is about two comic book, you know, writers and artists.
00:47:17
Shauna (she/her)
um You've got Holden McNeil and Banky Edwards. And so Banky Edwards, played by Jason Lee, and Holden is played by Ben Affleck.
00:47:22
Dara
It's definitely not.
00:47:26
Shauna (she/her)
Because when I think of who is going to turn a lesbian into someone who wants to date a man, it's Ben Affleck.
00:47:32
Ryan
hundred percent
00:47:32
Shauna (she/her)
And so, yeah.
00:47:32
Dara
definitely not
00:47:35
Shauna (she/her)
And then, like, so they go, you know, and they're at this comic book. but So let's start off with they're at a comic book convention is where this movie starts. And you kind of get, yeah, I'm sure you do.
00:47:45
Ryan
I already have notes there.
00:47:48
Shauna (she/her)
And so we go and are, you know, get to see this kind of really like look into like ninety s nerddom, which is so where Kevin Smith is really steeped in this like late 90s, you know, and it's really like shows his like love of the genre, love of that kind of niche film.
00:47:57
Dara
Yeah.
00:48:03
Shauna (she/her)
fandom that really has come to define both the fans of like his movies and just the properties that exist within them. And so they write Bluntman and Chronic, the tale of and Silent Bob, but what if they were more than Jay and Silent Bob?
00:48:18
Shauna (she/her)
And so now you meet Alyssa Edwards, who is on a panel with Hooper X.
00:48:18
Ryan
Yeah.
00:48:23
Ryan
Wait, her name is not Alyssa Edwards. Is it really?
00:48:26
Shauna (she/her)
Oh, I'm sorry. No, it's Alyssa Jones. Alyssa Jones.
00:48:27
Ryan
Okay.
00:48:28
Dara
Yeah, tell us it, Jones.
00:48:28
Ryan
I was like, Shauna, what? There's that, there's that drag race fucking ah programming.
00:48:30
Shauna (she/her)
Or, yeah. Oh my god. i did just dr oh my God not digging ah
00:48:35
Dara
It's earwormed.
00:48:36
Ryan
You're welcome. You're welcome.
00:48:41
Ryan
um So a couple of things before we like kind of get into ah of the real meat of it, because the introduction, the comic, blah, blah, blah, the um Comic-Con is is just kind of fun.
00:48:53
Ryan
like Once they hit the gay bar scene, it's kind of off and running in terms of the plot. But um a couple of my notes.
00:48:58
Dara
Yeah. Yeah.
00:49:00
Ryan
One, someone's wearing a shirt that says Marvel can suck my cock during Comic-Con. And that was really funny. And I kind of lost it.
00:49:09
Shauna (she/her)
And so very... like The Big Two had so much like antagonism towards them.
00:49:14
Ryan
Yeah.
00:49:15
Shauna (she/her)
you know Because like that is like the time of like Image Comics, where like Spawn came from, McFarlane, Dark Horse, like where those there was a lot...
00:49:15
Ryan
Yeah.
00:49:18
Ryan
Yep. Dark Horse.
00:49:22
Dara
yeah
00:49:24
Shauna (she/her)
like The indie comic books were seen as like the meat. And you know it was like almost like sellouts for writing for like the Big Two in some ways.
00:49:27
Ryan
Yeah.
00:49:32
Ryan
Yeah.
00:49:33
Shauna (she/her)
And an interesting... like where Because you know this is obviously well before the MCU. This is well before... um Tobey Maguire's Spider-Man in terms of like the era you know that it came out in.
00:49:41
Ryan
Yep.
00:49:41
Dara
yeah
00:49:46
Ryan
Yeah. um I also never understood the designation between pencils and ink. like on when I would read the um ah credits in the beginning of the comic books, I just only recently started trying to pay attention to like who my favorite artists are.
00:50:04
Ryan
um But the part where he's calling Banky a tracer, um i first of all, I think I just like seeing um Jason Lee get bullied because he's such a prick.
00:50:17
Ryan
um But it was really, really funny to watch it But the, like, I almost, like, had to pause the fucking movie when they have a minority panel with um Alyssa and um I know I wrote his
00:50:36
Dara
Cooper. Yeah.
00:50:36
Ryan
the character's name in here somewhere hooper x yes um and hooper x is like giving this really impassioned um pro-black separatist fuck the man speech and then it gets like really weirdly violent and uh i wrote oh god this scene with the black com comic artist i can't tell if i hate it or if it's dot dot dot
00:50:37
Shauna (she/her)
Cooper? Yeah.
00:50:40
Shauna (she/her)
yeah
00:50:40
Dara
yeah
00:51:01
Ryan
Nope, it got to the black rage part and it's only 3% funny. um Until I realized this man is a sissy. This is a homosexual. And it completely turned my like feeling about that character in that moment 100% around
00:51:14
Dara
Yep.
00:51:20
Ryan
and I think Banky makes a joke about him sounding like Minister Farrakhan on stage, but the King of Poth off stage. You can't make that joke, Banky. But it was kind of funny.
00:51:32
Ryan
Those are my notes for that first first couple of scenes.
00:51:32
Shauna (she/her)
It was pretty... That's fair. Yeah, it was like, the what's a Nubian is a, like, yeah.
00:51:38
Ryan
yeah Oh my God. God, that was a really wild scene. It was definitely, it's super dated, super dated.
00:51:43
Dara
Yeah.
00:51:45
Shauna (she/her)
Oh, absolutely. It's very dated, but also, but I think there's something to be said for the way of needing how gay people back in the ninety s really needed to hide themselves, how needing to wear this mask of hyper-masculinity to fit in and sell your comics.
00:51:46
Dara
Oh, so did it.
00:52:02
Shauna (she/her)
Well, because...
00:52:03
Ryan
And especially as a, you know, being sort of portrayed as a Black activist, like like Black women don't get recognition in progressive movements.
00:52:08
Shauna (she/her)
Mm-hmm.
00:52:13
Ryan
To be a queer Black person, or especially a queer Black man that didn't fit the sort of hyper-masculine archetype, um there there was no there was no alternative.
00:52:13
Dara
Yeah.
00:52:24
Ryan
um But yeah, that's how we get introduced to Alyssa ah and they're talking and, and,
00:52:25
Shauna (she/her)
Absolutely.
00:52:32
Ryan
Holden, someone says something like, oh, how how come I've never seen you before? And her joke is like, well, she's like, you're a a white guy. So it like lose one one of those two and maybe we can be on the same panel or something. And I was like, LOL, okay, that's solid.
00:52:48
Ryan
um But we get this introduction to Alyssa, which leads us to the gay bar scene. Shauna, can you give us a, tell us about it?
00:52:57
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah. Well, ill first I'll say they're old they're from the same hometown. which So you find that they're actually connected to the rest of the Viewersk universe in a way that you didn't necessarily know because everyone went to the same little area.
00:53:05
Ryan
right
00:53:11
Shauna (she/her)
They all know the characters of Mallrats. And actually, Alyssa Jones is the sister of the girl who wrote the book in Mallrats of the sex book. So she's actually her like older sister.
00:53:24
Ryan
no wonder she's such a little slut
00:53:25
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah.
00:53:25
Dara
Yeah. Yeah.
00:53:26
Shauna (she/her)
they even made a comment like you went home to visit your sister. The one with the book deal is like a line in there.
00:53:32
Dara
yeah
00:53:33
Ryan
Your 15 year old sister that's being backed by a publishing house for her research on statutory essay. Oh, yeah.
00:53:42
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah. And one of whom who did that was then also played by Ben Affleck. Coincidentally.
00:53:47
Ryan
Wild.
00:53:48
Shauna (she/her)
yeah but so Yeah.
00:53:49
Ryan
So we get to this gay bar.
00:53:50
Shauna (she/her)
So we go to the gay bar as you know they're invited out because they all hit it off in a way that was kind of nice.
00:53:50
Dara
yeah
00:53:56
Shauna (she/her)
And they're there and Holden thinks he is just absolutely like, this girl is very into me. She invited me out. And then Alyssa sings this.
00:54:07
Shauna (she/her)
absolutely beautiful song that is still like in like I just I love the solo she's saying it's the best she is feeling it she is so hot up there and actually she's singing it to the girl in front and actually it is a somehow a lesbian bar in New York City
00:54:11
Dara
Oh, it's the best. Yeah.
00:54:23
Ryan
he Which,
00:54:28
Ryan
yes, so as a person who had never seen this but knew the premise, like, it's pretty clear right away that it's a gay bar to anyone that has ever been in a gay bar or anyone that is good at subtlety.
00:54:39
Dara
yeah
00:54:43
Ryan
um Because it's like exclusively women and women of varying sort of presentations. um and But one of the things that I immediately thought of was ah bunch of them are drinking Wicked Ale, that um hard cider, that hard apple juice, that I don't know if it exists anymore, but I swear to God, the the only other time i saw Wicked Ale was at Bounce.
00:55:01
Shauna (she/her)
god Oh, I hope not, because it was gross.
00:55:05
Dara
don't remember that.
00:55:08
Dara
don't remember that.
00:55:12
Ryan
So, like, is is it just...
00:55:14
Shauna (she/her)
That's fair. I think I have had a wicked ale at balance. I'm not even going to kid myself here.
00:55:18
Ryan
Like, is it just a gay people drink? What if it, what if a cultural phenomenon?
00:55:21
Shauna (she/her)
i think it must be.
00:55:25
Shauna (she/her)
Well, and so then all of a sudden now, shit, she's gay what do we do and i think this is the first of yeah and like the sirens are going off and he looks around and he's like oh wait how did i not real like it was so in his own head and so in his own world is like the main character of the story that he doesn't even realize he's in a fucking gay bar like great job ben affleck nailed it
00:55:32
Ryan
Right. So she gets off stage and kisses this woman right away.
00:55:38
Dara
Yeah.
00:55:54
Ryan
Is that song she was singing a real song?
00:55:55
Dara
No.
00:55:55
Ryan
Okay.
00:55:57
Shauna (she/her)
I don't know if it is.
00:55:57
Dara
no
00:55:58
Shauna (she/her)
i think it was just written for...
00:55:58
Dara
It is not a real song because I have on many occasions looked to karaoke it and it does not exist. You can find it on YouTube, of course, but it is not a real song.
00:56:05
Ryan
Got it. Sure.
00:56:09
Ryan
What were you about to say, Dara? I'm sorry.
00:56:11
Dara
Oh, I was like, no, the sirens are going off for Banky and not for Holden because he immediately starts clapping enthusiastically when he makes the incredibly sexist misogynist realization of like, oh, it's lesbians. They're for my observation. yes
00:56:26
Ryan
Right, right. um
00:56:29
Shauna (she/her)
God.
00:56:30
Ryan
Apparently Joey lauren Lauren Adams wrote that song. It was originally a country song, but Kevin Smith requested they pump it up a bit.
00:56:34
Shauna (she/her)
Oh, I love that.
00:56:39
Ryan
I just looked at it on trivia.
00:56:39
Dara
Yes. um
00:56:40
Ryan
um ah the One of the other things I loved was Alyssa's sheer top black bra combo.
00:56:48
Dara
yeah
00:56:48
Ryan
so fucking cute. She looks so fucking cute.
00:56:50
Shauna (she/her)
Classic.
00:56:52
Ryan
She is just, her voice does tinge on something in my ear a little bit but I can get past it it's not like something that like takes me out of the moment um but her um oh and then they get into the booth and they start having this wild conversation between the three of them and Holden is being peak straight man realizing that he's not going to get what he wants but there are Okay, so there's a whole part where Banky talks about not eating girls out because women just don't tell you what to do.
00:57:30
Ryan
What?
00:57:31
Shauna (she/her)
but And I think it really speaks to the ultimate conclusion of the movie.
00:57:31
Ryan
What?
00:57:34
Ryan
Be more of an incel. Yes.
00:57:36
Shauna (she/her)
Well, well, be more of a fucking closeted gay man who is nowhere near able to come to terms with that fact.
00:57:38
Ryan
Yes. yeah
00:57:39
Dara
Yeah.
00:57:40
Ryan
Yes.
00:57:43
Shauna (she/her)
And also the girl that he is doing in that story, Brandy Svening, who is the one of the protagonists of Mallrats and Michael Rooker, the father, is the one who came in and injured him.
00:57:44
Ryan
So there is...
00:57:57
Ryan
Yes. um i I couldn't remember who you had say said ended up gay.
00:58:04
Ryan
And I know it's actually like in another movie where they say like, you ended up you know, um but like, it first gives incel, like, you know, putting it in 2025 context, like watching that, you're like, yeah, it's definitely the women's fault that you don't go down on women, you fucking incel.
00:58:07
Shauna (she/her)
Thank you.
00:58:09
Dara
Yeah.
00:58:16
Dara
Oh yeah.
00:58:22
Ryan
um But then, you know, like shortly into his obsession, which is, you know, we'll kind of get to it in in a moment, but his obsession with the relationship between Alyssa and Holden, it's immediately clear.
00:58:37
Dara
No.
00:58:38
Ryan
So um yeah, if you want to, oh my God, I have other notes about the um booth conversation. um but They don't, they talk about virginity, but I don't really remember
00:58:47
Shauna (she/her)
Oh yeah, please.
00:58:52
Ryan
Oh, is that is that that part? Okay, anyways. um
00:58:55
Dara
Yeah, because they're comparing scarves.
00:58:57
Ryan
Yes. And they have a conversation about like, what is sex and what isn't and
00:59:02
Shauna (she/her)
well and that's then the next, like you said, yeah, you said, fuck, you said fuck to that girl.
00:59:03
Dara
Yeah.
00:59:06
Shauna (she/her)
Like, and that was where this concept it again, this very 90, again, you know, and and here we are 30 years later and it's really easy to be like, oh, actually like I see where we've, how far we've come, but also where like,
00:59:09
Ryan
Yes.
00:59:16
Dara
Yeah.
00:59:18
Ryan
How silly of you.
00:59:20
Dara
Yeah.
00:59:21
Ryan
Right.
00:59:23
Shauna (she/her)
those questions were legitimate questions that people were asking in the nineties of like, what does sex actually mean to these two parties? And I kind of love that she was like, well, like there's all these different ways to think about it.
00:59:35
Shauna (she/her)
And, you know, like, of course then the most, are the, the, and I just like, which is just like,
00:59:40
Ryan
Like...
00:59:42
Dara
who like what yeah
00:59:44
Shauna (she/her)
the i think guys again again like where and I think it just goes to show how despite his best things, this was still a film written by a straight man. But with that being said, an interesting ally, if you will.
00:59:52
Ryan
I literally wrote in all caps in my notes
00:59:56
Dara
yeah but not just missing this thing this thing there you do a little jazz hands that's yeah yeah
00:59:56
Ryan
Is she talking about being into fisting?
01:00:00
Shauna (she/her)
Absolutely. Yeah.
01:00:04
Shauna (she/her)
Like a hand puppet. Hello, my baby. Hello, my darling.
01:00:08
Ryan
Oh, no.
01:00:08
Shauna (she/her)
I'm just fisting you.
01:00:09
Ryan
Yoo-hoo, boys!
01:00:12
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah, that's Sabrina Carpenter's actually sequel. Yeah.
01:00:16
Ryan
Right. Chasing Sabrina.
01:00:17
Shauna (she/her)
But, so yeah, so they have this great then talk because now they're like, oh, we actually need to talk about this.
01:00:18
Dara
um
01:00:18
Ryan
Um...
01:00:23
Shauna (she/her)
And so it really starts then the actual beginning of Holden's friendship with Alyssa as they kind of start to actually understand each other and to have conversations. And Holden gets his worldview expanded, which again, like going back to the high school analogy between Dara and I, Dara was very expanding to my worldview.
01:00:36
Ryan
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
01:00:43
Shauna (she/her)
and was very you know like helps me understand all sorts of things that I did not know until i met Dara. And that really helped broaden my horizons on so many levels and ways.
01:00:50
Ryan
yeah
01:00:54
Shauna (she/her)
And like, I really can appreciate that. Like, oh, I just didn't have anyone to ask these questions. I didn't have the situation that would have made me ask the question in the first place. Because you just assume, you know, again, it goes back to the standard.
01:01:07
Shauna (she/her)
And I think you see that even going into today, how many people get focused on, well, that's not the standard. As though that is the only, read you know, the reason why we do, yeah.
01:01:12
Ryan
Right.
01:01:15
Ryan
All these, all the, all the discourse around Billie Eilish is dating a man, apparently Jojo Siwa, who please don't make me come to the defense of Jojo Siwa, but like she came out as gay, but then was, has been dating this guy that she met on television.
01:01:16
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah.
01:01:26
Dara
my god, yeah.
01:01:31
Ryan
And there's a lot of other things, you know, packed into both of those conversations, but like Jesus Christ, they're also like 20 something years old.
01:01:34
Shauna (she/her)
Right. Well...
01:01:39
Ryan
Let them figure their shit out. You weirdos.
01:01:41
Shauna (she/her)
And, again, just like in those stories and in this movie, I really wish someone had ever heard of the word bisexual.
01:01:41
Dara
Yeah.
01:01:50
Ryan
Right.
01:01:50
Shauna (she/her)
Because I think if the word bisexual existed in their world-verse, it would be a much different movie. However, it's like, well, you no, you're straight or gay, you pick a side. like It's like the like Romeo and Juliet, like the...
01:02:01
Ryan
Literally.
01:02:04
Shauna (she/her)
You know, the strapulates in the month.
01:02:04
Dara
Well, but I think it's
01:02:08
Dara
the Mounticues.
01:02:10
Shauna (she/her)
There we go.
01:02:11
Dara
We got there. um No, but I think it's also, it's so different watching it now with the nostalgia that I have for it, but also through the lens of what it was then, because like it didn't feel toxic in any of the ways that it's so blatantly has all kinds of toxic issues about it, you know, even with the nostalgia that I have for it, but it's, we're looking at it through a totally different lens now.
01:02:36
Dara
You know, there wasn't, of course,
01:02:37
Ryan
Yeah.
01:02:37
Shauna (she/her)
And it's also very revolutionary too in that same way, like where it was like, oh my gosh, like it was so ahead of its time in a way that we didn't really realize at the time either.
01:02:40
Dara
Oh my gosh, yeah. That's why I'd be having nostalgia for it. Like...
01:02:46
Ryan
Yeah.
01:02:46
Shauna (she/her)
Absolutely.
01:02:47
Ryan
And I mean, one of the things that I wrote is like, first of all, she's so fucking patient in that conversation. Like, I don't know how, you know, in the the first time, and I guess that also speaks to what was required of us.
01:02:53
Dara
Mm-hmm.
01:03:01
Ryan
Like, even as a person who's been a queer trainer, like I have my limit on
01:03:05
Dara
Mm-hmm.
01:03:05
Ryan
when I will continue to investigate or like participate in conversations. And that limit is different in personal conversations.
01:03:11
Dara
Oh, yeah. Yes.
01:03:13
Ryan
Like, I don't mind going a little bit further with people who are, you know, curious and it's part of the conversation, but like, it's like interrogative the way that they are grilling her on what it means to be queer and to be a lesbian.
01:03:23
Dara
yeah
01:03:27
Ryan
And, um, We get this, so after, you know, the they meet and they hang out and blah, blah, blah, and Holden is is convinced that he is going to fuck this girl until he finds out she's a lesbian.
01:03:41
Ryan
And then they start hanging out. And we have this, like, actually kind of, like, really cute, fun montage of them being friendly, which is then ruined by Holden's profession of love in a car,
01:03:49
Dara
Yeah. Yeah.
01:03:59
Ryan
in the rain and it is so fucking pathetic i'm so sorry it is the most pathetic thing and i think at one point it was like you know it kind of gave him passion when it started but then it just got really fucking desperate and i was like whoa dude have some respect for yourself like yikes
01:04:07
Dara
yeah
01:04:22
Ryan
And I wish what would have happened, have some respect for her.
01:04:22
Shauna (she/her)
Have some respect for her.
01:04:23
Dara
Yeah.
01:04:23
Shauna (she/her)
Like... like
01:04:24
Dara
Yeah.
01:04:26
Ryan
first first yeah First and foremost, have some respect for the thing that you know to be true about her. Your feelings are not more important than her experience, which I wish more people understand, is that sometimes you can fucking hold your feelings for a little bit for the sake of the the other person.
01:04:35
Dara
Mm-hmm.
01:04:40
Ryan
And I wish what would have happened is he confessed and then she was like, I'm gay. And then the credits roll. Like that should have been the end of the fucking movie is her being like, I'm gay. And then nothing else happens.
01:04:54
Ryan
But unfortunately, well, fortunately, unfortunately.
01:04:55
Shauna (she/her)
Well, but again, and it's like, well, but actually, even though she's been only exclusively having, you know, living the life of a lesbian, and I think that's, again, there's such an interest, as very much...
01:04:58
Dara
Yeah.
01:05:10
Shauna (she/her)
I think she is the description of a bisexual lesbian, like in the like way of like, because she has both had, as we will find out, has had these past experiences before Holden. And now Holden has turned out to be the exception that is actually like, oh, I actually can love Holden.
01:05:28
Shauna (she/her)
someone like this again or find attraction in someone like this again and that despite her cult like all of her friends circle you know she lives a very queer life like now again like that difference between sexuality and like where queerness can really come in is she's living the life where her community her job it is all very much a part of herself and her so like it's all in a wrap together and so
01:05:38
Ryan
right Yeah,
01:05:40
Dara
Yeah.
01:05:55
Dara
yeah
01:05:55
Ryan
there's a couple of other things in the um profession of love that I wanted to um to to touch on. He says, i would risk this friendship to take it to the next plateau. And I just wrote, bitch, what the fuck?
01:06:09
Ryan
um One of his lines that he says is I am forever changed by who you are and what you've meant to me. This is almost an exact line in the song For Good.
01:06:22
Ryan
And I cannot wait for the two of you to see the second half of Wicked and come back to this episode and be like, oh, Christ, it's almost verbatim.
01:06:29
Shauna (she/her)
Fascinating.
01:06:30
Dara
Okay. Interesting.
01:06:32
Ryan
It is almost verbatim. um But there is a line that Alyssa says... Another critique, or okay, a critique that I've said before is that Kevin Smith's movies are a little overwritten.
01:06:44
Ryan
Like he, every scene includes at least three to four monologues.
01:06:45
Dara
Yeah. yeah
01:06:50
Ryan
And in her monologue, in response to him, she says, it's unfortunate that you are in love with me, but it's unfair that you felt the need to unburden your fucking soul to me.
01:07:01
Dara
Yeah. Yeah.
01:07:02
Ryan
Yes. Yes. You are allowed to be sad about the fact that you fell in love with me and I am a lesbian, but you did not have to fucking do this. That was really unfair.
01:07:12
Ryan
You knew that it would put me in a weird position and look what you did. well I just thought that line was great.
01:07:19
Shauna (she/her)
Well, and then in what is a surprise, after running off, she then rushes right back. They make out, go have sex.
01:07:28
Ryan
In the rain, which kind of like I was...
01:07:29
Shauna (she/her)
And then,
01:07:30
Ryan
In both, in and the romantic in me is like, oh, I love kissing in the rain.
01:07:32
Dara
contrived
01:07:35
Ryan
And then like the other part of me is like, fucking corny. Fucking corny.
01:07:41
Dara
The media user in you is like really
01:07:43
Ryan
Yes. Yeah, exactly.
01:07:45
Shauna (she/her)
Right. And so,
01:07:46
Ryan
So yeah, they go from the rain
01:07:48
Shauna (she/her)
and now they everywhere.
01:07:49
Ryan
fucking in,
01:07:49
Shauna (she/her)
yeah.
01:07:50
Ryan
Yeah.
01:07:51
Shauna (she/her)
everywhere and yeah
01:07:53
Ryan
So the the thing that I was going to get at is, you know, after they they kiss in the rain, like it the next scene is them um having sex and um they wake up the next morning and Banky comes into the apartment and literally he sees them in bed together and drops his coffee and runs out. And it's so fucking faggy.
01:08:20
Ryan
it is so, oh no, I thought my best friend that was maybe also sort of in love with me is actually still straight. Oh no. Like, yeah, girl, we all been there.
01:08:31
Ryan
We all been there.
01:08:32
Dara
fine.
01:08:32
Ryan
And then they they have this growth. Okay. Sorry. i don't remember I don't, I don't, haven't looked at the, um,
01:08:36
Shauna (she/her)
Oh yeah.
01:08:37
Dara
now you're fine
01:08:38
Shauna (she/her)
Well, and so then they're going and it's all going well, but J, but Binky, very jealous of this. And he's been jealous of their friendship for a while. And so now obviously is only that much more and does some digging, goes to the quick stop and finds out that, Oh,
01:08:57
Shauna (she/her)
This girl from our hometown actually does have a past and finds that she has the nickname Finger Cuffs.
01:09:02
Ryan
yeah which we'll get to the explanation here shortly, but couple of things in, um and I don't even know how important it is, but there is a line when they're talking outside of the apartment after he catches them, catches them, after he sees them in bed together.
01:09:13
Shauna (she/her)
No, no.
01:09:21
Dara
Yeah.
01:09:21
Ryan
um First and foremost, where the fuck are they in whatever city, New York City, I'm assuming, because they're from Jersey.
01:09:28
Shauna (she/her)
They're in New Jersey.
01:09:28
Dara
Yeah. They're in New Jersey.
01:09:30
Shauna (she/her)
No, they're in Jersey.
01:09:30
Ryan
They're in New Jersey.
01:09:31
Shauna (she/her)
They have to go back because they make a comment they have to go back through the tunnel.
01:09:31
Ryan
Okay, got it.
01:09:35
Ryan
Got it. Oh, right, or right, right. But they're out in the morning and like no one is on the street. and' like, what the fuck? how A coffee shop is open, but no one is on the street doing anything. Okay, got it. um But...
01:09:47
Ryan
Another nod to him definitely being queer is how he like has to make a weird comment about the Catholic school girls that are waiting for their bus and they're definitely teenagers and he's definitely full grown adult.
01:09:54
Dara
Mm-hmm.
01:10:00
Ryan
um But when he's he's kind of posing this. idea that he that um banky is looking out for holden and he says something like um to ensure like to ensure all the years we spent building together aren't a waste and then holden kind of responds assuming he's talking about the comic and banky says i'm not talking about the comic bro i'm gonna hold your hands when i say this you want your best friend to fuck you and that's okay
01:10:28
Dara
Yeah. yeah
01:10:35
Ryan
That's okay. You're gay.
01:10:36
Shauna (she/her)
in
01:10:37
Ryan
Or at least this new term that some of us are learning bisexual.
01:10:38
Dara
Yeah.
01:10:42
Dara
Cool. And it's awesome.
01:10:43
Shauna (she/her)
I don't think that exists. and
01:10:45
Dara
It's also weird watching ah film that is so queer, but time period queer where everything was genital essentialist and very cisgender.
01:10:56
Ryan
Yeah.
01:10:57
Dara
And I think of both the bar conversation, the conversation about this thing with jazz hands on the swing, any number of the ways that like they actually have you know sex ultimately.
01:11:09
Dara
It's also like, yeah, dykes can want some dick. Like, gay guys can also be down for eating someone out. Like, there is a range of genders and genitals that intersect. Like,
Exploring Sexual Identity Without Labels
01:11:20
Shauna (she/her)
And it doesn't make you, yeah, and one-off whatever off does not change one's, you know, orientation either, and that you do not need to define yourself by the entirety of the breadth of experiences you've had or will have.
01:11:20
Dara
but...
01:11:20
Ryan
yeah
01:11:30
Dara
Yeah.
01:11:35
Dara
Yeah.
01:11:37
Ryan
We're looking at you faggots that still call yourselves gold star. Like it doesn't matter that you've never had sex with a woman.
01:11:41
Dara
Hmm. Toxic.
01:11:44
Ryan
Like who cares? You're not any, I promise you, i have had i've i've I've explored the spectrum of ah genders and genitals, and I'm not any less, quote, gay than anybody else that's just touched cis wieners.
01:12:00
Ryan
Like, honey.
01:12:01
Shauna (she/her)
a
01:12:02
Ryan
Actually, I think I'm way gayer because I've i' i danced along the spectrum of people to fuck. um
01:12:13
Shauna (she/her)
Well, it isn't that in many ways exactly the argument that I think then like Alyssa makes about it all is like, I've been through this and I know like, oh, like,
01:12:13
Ryan
So in my...
01:12:23
Ryan
Yeah. Yes, she does point that out too.
01:12:25
Dara
Ciao.
01:12:27
Ryan
Like, this is not, you know, a, a,
01:12:32
Ryan
I don't even remember what she says, but like that exact point that like, I do know who I am. Well, you thought you did, which again, should also be a comment to everyone in terms of their own exploration of their sexual identity is like, you've only had the experiences you've had until you have a new experience.
01:12:40
Shauna (she/her)
Mm-hmm.
01:12:51
Ryan
And just because you haven't had it doesn't mean that it might not be of interest, but The next sort of sequential part is the scene where she's talking to her friends and they kind of call her out because she's been missing.
01:13:06
Ryan
Like she hasn't been around with the gang in a while and she is trying to
01:13:10
Dara
Yeah.
01:13:14
Ryan
avoid identifying that she is dating a man. And so she keeps saying like, that I think she uses like gender neutral pronouns and says this person and it's very, very something.
01:13:23
Dara
Yeah.
01:13:27
Ryan
And one of the the friends in the circle says, why are you playing the pronoun game? And I wanna be like, 2025, this is meta commentary.
01:13:36
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah.
01:13:36
Ryan
This is meta commentary in some kind of way.
01:13:36
Dara
yeah
01:13:37
Shauna (she/her)
You might not get this now, but your kids are going to love it.
01:13:40
Ryan
yeah.
01:13:41
Dara
Oh,
01:13:44
Ryan
And all of those women, you cannot style straight women as queer as well as the women the women in that scene or the people in that scene were styled. Those are all lesbians.
01:13:57
Ryan
Every single person in that scene is a lesbian.
01:13:59
Shauna (she/her)
Actually, a great backstory that we found out during a wonderful documentary called Chasing Chasing Amy is that the lesbians in that scene are from a similar 1990s black and white comedy that aired at the same time as Clerks that was in the same indie scene circle.
01:14:07
Ryan
mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
01:14:19
Dara
Yeah.
01:14:21
Shauna (she/her)
And so they were all like lesbian filmmakers from that era, like or two like some at least some of those women were.
01:14:25
Dara
Yeah. They were connected to the the other film, yeah.
01:14:28
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah.
Kevin Smith's Inspiration and Authenticity
01:14:30
Shauna (she/her)
And so they were like friends with and helped inform the story and why Kevin Smith had these kinds of experiences and knowledge base to write this story, because this is a story based on him and his relationship with Joey Lauren Adams, the titular Alyssa Jones.
01:14:30
Ryan
I love that.
01:14:46
Ryan
Okay, so quick timeout. What? And second of all, um, the what you were saying about the the the realism of the these scenes when one of them says another one bites the dust in reference to um elicidating a man like that is very very real um my proximity to women loving women circles lesbian circles and even just as a ah ah queer person like who is
01:14:58
Shauna (she/her)
Mm-hmm.
01:15:02
Shauna (she/her)
to
01:15:04
Dara
Yeah. Yeah.
01:15:12
Dara
yeah
01:15:17
Ryan
aligned with the gay male community like there is this almost idea of betrayal it's a lot different for cis gay men because their shit is much more toxic um but i think for cis lesbians that idea of like and i don't know this is my own maybe i don't know if it's my um my place to to observe, but I think an observation that I have is like the way that women are often required to protect each other, especially in queer spaces, like this idea, not that we like lost a lesbian, but that we kind of like lost a member of this like protective sacred community that, um you know,
01:16:02
Shauna (she/her)
The sisterhood.
01:16:03
Ryan
The
01:16:18
Shauna (she/her)
and
01:16:19
Ryan
So wait, Kevin Smith and Joey Lauren Adams dated? What is this?
01:16:24
Shauna (she/her)
Oh yeah, absolutely.
01:16:26
Dara
And he was very insecure about how well-traveled she was.
01:16:26
Shauna (she/her)
so they,
01:16:29
Ryan
Oh.
01:16:30
Shauna (she/her)
yeah And so it was based off of, was Affleck in this and he was definitely the person who wrote, who lost, you know, this really great love.
01:16:34
Ryan
Uh-huh.
01:16:39
Shauna (she/her)
And so, and was in the process of dealing with that while they were filming Chasing Amy together. And so all of that is and is in that movie.
01:16:46
Ryan
Ooh.
01:16:50
Ryan
I really got to watch Chasing Chasing Amy, I'm sure.
01:16:51
Dara
Yeah.
01:16:52
Ryan
That's more, yeah.
01:16:52
Shauna (she/her)
You really do.
01:16:53
Dara
It's very good.
01:16:53
Shauna (she/her)
It's so good, especially seeing like the two of them talk about it and how like naive he was and how foolish he was.
01:16:54
Ryan
Yeah.
01:16:59
Shauna (she/her)
and they come Because at the end of the day, he like he was not right. And the movie is written that Ben Affleck pulled in is not right, just as he Kevin Smith wasn't right.
01:17:09
Dara
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
01:17:09
Shauna (she/her)
And...
01:17:09
Ryan
yeah
01:17:11
Shauna (she/her)
There's definitely that element. And oh, also speaking of that betrayal and that way that lesbian circles, like, you know, and going back to the experience that Dara and I had when they were in high school and we were we were in high school.
Portrayal of Smoking and Relationship Dynamics
01:17:22
Shauna (she/her)
And also the way that you see that same kind of betrayal is how trans men are often treated.
01:17:30
Shauna (she/her)
And I think it really informs a lot of that same, that's the same elements of betrayal. Like we are you know, trans women are treated as these usurpers, but like there's a, like almost feels like you're turning your back on the sisterhood and you are leaving us for the world of men is very similar in the same exact like ways.
01:17:47
Ryan
I
01:17:51
Ryan
ah hear that totally.
01:17:52
Dara
yeah
01:17:53
Ryan
ah couple of other things. um Everybody loves smoking in this movie and in just cool 90s movies in general. And God, it made me miss smoking cigarettes for like 13 seconds. Like, I know that it's bad and ah the the talking points were always that smoking is not cool, but I looked cool smoking cigarettes.
01:18:14
Ryan
people can look cool smoking cigarettes cigarettes can make you look cool i don't give a fuck what anyone says so uh it did make me smoke a bunch of weed I literally wrote in all caps everybody loves smoking and it makes me miss smoking kinda so I'll just smoke weed and that's what I did um
01:18:29
Dara
Yeah. Yeah.
01:18:30
Shauna (she/her)
That's fair. That's why I like joints.
01:18:32
Ryan
But then they, yeah, exactly. It hits the same fix.
01:18:34
Dara
yeah
01:18:36
Ryan
But um in one of the post-coitus scenes, there's this blue lighting. It's very fucking, like, again, figuring out Kevin Smith's directorial style and, like, perhaps leaning a little too much into certain styles or tropes or whatever.
01:18:52
Ryan
But um she has this
01:18:53
Dara
yeah
01:18:56
Ryan
she kind of reveals how she got to the point where she is comfortable, you know, sort of dating Holden. And she talks about, i think this may be what we were referencing earlier, like she came to it in her own terms, um but it was one of the monologues and I wrote, I can't tell if it was overwritten or overacted, like.
01:19:09
Shauna (she/her)
Hmm.
01:19:28
Ryan
Yeah.
01:19:28
Dara
That she is saying it from a place of regret in a way that I think is kind of shitty.
01:19:34
Ryan
Or lament maybe.
01:19:36
Dara
regret, lament, like, I did this and I am still okay and valid.
01:19:36
Shauna (she/her)
o
01:19:38
Ryan
Yeah.
01:19:41
Dara
And least she's almost trying to convince herself.
01:19:42
Ryan
Right.
01:19:44
Shauna (she/her)
Oh, well, that's the different that's the next one. That's after he confronts her at the hockey game, which again, ah real what it is with him and fucking bringing up emotional shit and real fucking shit times and places, because my god.
01:19:47
Dara
Oh, okay.
01:19:51
Ryan
Oh.
01:19:55
Dara
Toxic.
01:19:57
Ryan
Yes. So before we get to that um parking lot scene and the hockey scene, we have this great interaction with Hooper X and um Banky.
01:20:09
Ryan
And first and foremost, he clocks Banky being in love with Holden. And...
01:20:16
Shauna (she/her)
Of course he does.
01:20:17
Dara
Yeah.
01:20:18
Ryan
Banky does not have a reaction.
01:20:19
Dara
Of course he does.
01:20:20
Ryan
Like there's no moment where he's like, man, don't say that. I'm not gay. I'm not in love with him. He just like, kind of just like, no, that can't be true. And then just like, lets it slide.
01:20:28
Dara
Yeah.
01:20:29
Ryan
Like, what are you talking about? A gay man telling you a straight man that you are definitely gay would create much more of a response than what happened there unless, and even if you were actually gay, would probably be worse.
01:20:42
Dara
Unless you know. Yeah.
01:20:44
Ryan
Yeah, exactly.
01:20:44
Shauna (she/her)
Unless he's come just far enough to the truth that he to give any air to it, even in opposition, would be too much.
01:20:51
Dara
Yeah.
01:20:53
Ryan
Yeah.
01:20:53
Shauna (she/her)
It would combust.
01:20:54
Ryan
um So other notes just about Hooper X, because what a I really hadn't, I didn't know that character because I don't think he exists in any of the other, in any of the other movies.
01:20:59
Dara
Yeah.
01:21:05
Shauna (she/her)
Well, he does. He is in at the end of Jay and Sal Bob Strike Back.
01:21:06
Dara
Yeah. Samiel.
01:21:09
Ryan
When?
01:21:09
Dara
With Benke.
01:21:11
Shauna (she/her)
but when they're all watching the movie and him and Banky are there together as a couple.
01:21:17
Dara
Yeah.
01:21:17
Ryan
I do remember that. I do remember that. i Now I need to like go back and watch it.
01:21:20
Dara
But beyond that, Chameo now.
01:21:20
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah. And that's what, yeah, I don't know that they think, well, maybe in like, but, but yeah, that is where the, you know, it ultimately goes is that he actually does come to terms with his own sexuality and finds his own love interest, which is Hooper.
01:21:23
Ryan
Yeah.
01:21:28
Dara
Yeah.
01:21:37
Shauna (she/her)
And they are now comic book writers together.
01:21:38
Ryan
Right.
01:21:40
Ryan
So, um There's like this little interaction between Hooper X and a young black kid um where he's clearly like indoctrinating him into this sort of radical mentality.
01:21:52
Ryan
And i don't know if it's supposed to, I don't know what, I don't know what it is supposed to be ah inspire in in, in the viewer.
01:21:53
Dara
Yeah.
01:22:00
Ryan
But for me, I was like, fuck yeah. Like fuck the man
01:22:04
Dara
Yeah.
01:22:05
Ryan
Don't talk to white people as I'm talking to two of my favorite whites.
01:22:06
Shauna (she/her)
yeah
01:22:08
Ryan
ah But obviously the thing that I like about Hooper X is that a lot of his um conversations or comments were actually kind of mirroring my it own internal monologue out as I was watching it, like, you know, almost in, in real time. um But he does do this gross anti-lesbian rant that I was like, all right, and here's where the similarities stop.
01:22:30
Dara
Thank you.
01:22:32
Ryan
It was just, um it was just gross. But then we get to the
01:22:40
Ryan
hockey scene where the Sean if you want to prep like primus or whatever.
01:22:46
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah. So Holden has been now grappling with this, like, oh there's this like yearbook comment, you know, this guy, Rick Darius, who's again, in the beginning, he's in Clerks. He's the guy who Caitlin Brie is potentially, is on and off, like had flings with in high school and is like ah real, you know, jerk of a slut kind of in the way that he, in that very nineties guy way.
01:23:07
Ryan
yeah
01:23:09
Shauna (she/her)
And so they were talking about him and Coey and Coey London. That was the other guy's name. just like Alyssa, it took me a sec to come to. And so they're going and Holden, as you do when you're out in public, starts talking about this clearly very potentially emotional situation.
01:23:19
Ryan
Yes, and
01:23:27
Shauna (she/her)
Because again, if this whole thing is not, like if there's more to it, why are you having this conversation in a fucking public stadium? And so...
01:23:35
Dara
Yeah.
01:23:36
Shauna (she/her)
And there's a literal fight happening. And i and again, i love this is where Kevin Smith's filmmaking I really love. And going back to like how that was in the bar scene, where the fight is echoing the like the way the ebbs and flows of their conversation.
01:23:44
Ryan
yes and
01:23:47
Dara
yeah
01:23:50
Shauna (she/her)
And it's so well done.
01:23:52
Ryan
It is also a little heavy-handed. Like, it it is well done.
01:23:55
Shauna (she/her)
Absolutely. Absolutely.
01:23:56
Ryan
i like it. But I'm just like, okay, we get it. The fight is escalating and the fight is escalating.
01:24:00
Shauna (she/her)
i mean But that is Kevin smith's that is kevin Smith. it is you got It's three lines of dialogue too much.
01:24:02
Ryan
Sure.
01:24:05
Shauna (she/her)
It's a little more heavy-handed in its imagery to make sure you really got there because at the end of the day, have you seen these fucking nerds?
01:24:06
Ryan
Yeah. Yeah.
01:24:09
Dara
Yeah.
01:24:11
Shauna (she/her)
They need the extra hand.
01:24:12
Ryan
That is true. That is true.
01:24:14
Shauna (she/her)
Just saying.
01:24:16
Ryan
So it goes into a full-blown fight and then they go into the parking lot and basically break up, but there's a bunch of good shit that happens in between.
01:24:29
Ryan
um i actually started my own little like paragraph indent ah under the parking lot breakup scene.
01:24:31
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah.
01:24:33
Dara
Yeah.
01:24:35
Ryan
um So I didn't feel the one thing that i one of the things that i um didn't particularly, i struggled with is
01:24:45
Ryan
ah Ben Affleck is not a great actor. um
01:24:48
Dara
No.
01:24:49
Ryan
Joey Lauren Adams is acting a little too much and their energies are not matched. So Alyssa is fully spiraling out and Holden's just like, what the heck?
01:24:56
Dara
No.
01:25:03
Ryan
Which is like not inaccurate, I guess, as to how
01:25:06
Dara
No.
01:25:07
Shauna (she/her)
If anything, actually, that's probably one of Ben Affleck's best acting jobs, because that is exactly how a cis-white straight man would act in this situation. Like, don't understand.
01:25:15
Ryan
Correct, correct.
01:25:16
Dara
I don't know why my saying this traumatizing thing in a public place would cause this reaction.
01:25:16
Ryan
it's So he's...
01:25:20
Dara
Yeah.
01:25:21
Ryan
So I said, i this this scene where she's telling him about her sex stories, I don't like that she's losing her
Consent, Autonomy, and Gender Narratives
01:25:28
Ryan
shit. And he's just like, I'm mad the acting talent is not matched. And he's not in the same moment as her, which I mean, she also clearly has a lot of trauma um that is all spilling out.
01:25:33
Dara
yeah
01:25:38
Dara
yeah
01:25:39
Ryan
But I wasn't kind of wild where she you know she's talking about all these sexual exploits. And she says something at a certain point of like, do you think I would have let that happen if I didn't want them to?
01:25:52
Ryan
And I didn't like that a lot, because it does, there is there is a narrative to be had about the experiences that Alyssa talks about that I think are related to, um
01:25:56
Dara
Yeah. Yeah.
01:25:57
Shauna (she/her)
That's fair.
01:26:08
Ryan
pressure on young girls and how like young women are, are, you know, pressured into sex and, and, and often pressured into thinking that they are enjoying something, but it's really for the enjoyment of the man.
01:26:21
Dara
yeah
01:26:21
Ryan
um
01:26:22
Ryan
And there's also this um commentary on sort of like,
01:26:31
Ryan
this is This is maybe ah a far leap, but in a world where corrective sexual assault, where people think you can fix a queer person by having sex with them against their will, um or that they will eventually come to enjoy it.
01:26:40
Dara
Yeah. Yeah.
01:26:45
Ryan
Like, it felt a little um baked in there, but not the, like, the the the surface level text.
01:26:51
Dara
yeah
01:26:51
Ryan
like To me, it was just, it was bringing up these, like, uncomfortable feelings of, like, We are talking about sex and consent along the gender and sexuality spectrum in a way that makes it not, again, it doesn't have the nuance that I wish that it would have in 2025.
01:27:08
Ryan
In 1990, whenever, when this comes out, yeah, is kind of progressive that this young woman is fucking whoever she wants and has fucked whoever she wants.
01:27:08
Dara
yeah
01:27:09
Shauna (she/her)
Absolutely. Well,
01:27:18
Ryan
And now she knows what she wants, cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
01:27:22
Shauna (she/her)
And I think that there's something to be said for her very, like, so you know, absolute disagreement that she was the victim and in it. And I think there that is fair, because at the end of the day, I think that, is you know, if that was her takeaway of like, actually, it was not cool, and it was not on the up and up, that is a fair and valid reaction.
01:27:32
Ryan
Sure.
01:27:42
Shauna (she/her)
And I can see that story. And like, and I don't want to take away from those very real life situations that happen, because that is a real situation.
01:27:49
Ryan
Right.
01:27:51
Shauna (she/her)
but at least in this fictional story, she is very much at least like, this was like what I wanted because I was, know, you know, this you know you know, kinky perverted teenager who wanted to engage promiscuous, you know like more promiscuous than, for you know, like perverted and not a negative way, but like, and they like, just like, I want to do all the like crazy things cause I want to do them.
01:28:01
Ryan
Curious.
01:28:15
Shauna (she/her)
And like, how dare you tell me that I was taken advantage of if anything, like they helped, you know, they, they fulfilled my, what I like, you know, co-opting that narrative of her just being this like girl who's taken advantage of is I think there's something fair to say,
01:28:16
Ryan
Yeah.
01:28:19
Dara
Yeah.
01:28:29
Shauna (she/her)
and if anything really speaks to Alyssa's story generally of like, whether it's choosing to be a lesbian and live amongst other queer women, whether it's choosing to then be withholden despite that, these are all her choices and the important, God, we really wrote it all right back to her Sabrina Carpenter.
01:28:51
Ryan
right Right. I was thinking the same thing.
01:28:52
Shauna (she/her)
Damn it.
01:28:53
Dara
Yeah. Yeah.
01:28:54
Ryan
I was thinking the same thing when I was talking about, like, this young blonde woman, you know, who is the archetype for purity and, yeah full circle.
01:29:00
Shauna (she/her)
Full circle. Mm-hmm.
01:29:02
Dara
yeah
01:29:03
Ryan
um I don't remember what it is in reference to, but at the end of that scene, I have a note that says the way that Banky came out, like, fucking next morning bottom. Like, I don't remember...
01:29:15
Ryan
what the scene is but i think he like comes out of his bedroom or something and he just looks like a bottom that got railed and and comes out the next morning like oh because he's so satisfied because they broke up that's what it was um but then we have this diner scene with jay and silent bob uh it's the cameo of jay and silent bob it gives us a um uh
01:29:21
Dara
Oh, yeah.
01:29:26
Dara
oh yeah
01:29:39
Ryan
insight into where the title of the movie comes from chasing Amy because Kevin Smith as silent Bob delivers a monologue about how he was in this exact same situation which is now wild to know that he was actually in that exact same situation and then wrote that he was in that exact same situation in a movie about the exact same situation that he wrote like
01:30:02
Shauna (she/her)
where where the character will ultimately write a work of art about the situation that he was in.
01:30:03
Dara
Yeah. Yeah.
01:30:08
Dara
yeah
01:30:09
Ryan
correct correct um just a couple of other notes about everyone's favorite stoners um i love how jay uses nooch as an emphasis like he does a lot new kind of drawn out one um but the casual use of faggot by jay feels so much less like internalized homophobia than when banky says
01:30:10
Dara
yeah
01:30:10
Shauna (she/her)
yeah but...
Comic Relief and Generational Attitudes in Chasing Amy
01:30:37
Ryan
like
01:30:37
Dara
Yeah. Yeah.
01:30:37
Ryan
like
01:30:39
Ryan
Jay saying faggot, I was like, shut up, Jay. Like, yeah, you made your point. was kind of funny, but like, you know, you're not supposed to say that. Like, don't say that.
01:30:47
Shauna (she/her)
I
01:30:47
Ryan
Fanky saying it makes you want to hem him up by his fucking throat and be like, you need to love yourself.
01:30:51
Shauna (she/her)
think he's saying it was so many of my friends in my twenties saying it when they would get angry in video games.
01:30:52
Dara
yeah
01:30:55
Ryan
Yes.
01:30:58
Ryan
Yes.
01:30:58
Shauna (she/her)
And I would be, you know, even like they're saying it at the other team who can't hear them, or maybe even sometimes can, you know, or typing it out at them in that way.
01:31:04
Ryan
Right. Right.
01:31:07
Shauna (she/her)
And like how much I experienced that, like, absolutely.
01:31:11
Dara
and people, of course, ship Jay and Silent Bob, too.
01:31:11
Shauna (she/her)
Like i have,
01:31:14
Ryan
Sure. Oh, I still do.
01:31:16
Dara
Yeah.
01:31:17
Ryan
They're perfect together.
01:31:18
Dara
Yeah.
01:31:19
Ryan
um And then we get to the couch conversation um between incredible
01:31:25
Shauna (she/her)
Which is, why was that the option? Is like, when I think of, this is the perfect example of why so many times in movies, but why was that the option?
01:31:36
Shauna (she/her)
And...
01:31:37
Ryan
Sean, I wish you could see my notes. um
01:31:42
Shauna (she/her)
Because did you think that that was where it was going?
01:31:42
Ryan
It's... i I was like, they just need to have a three-way. Like, I promise you, that's what I was thinking. And then it happening, my notes are in all caps. So, like, my first notes are um when Banky makes a comment about Alyssa being, like, a slut or whatever.
01:32:02
Ryan
Holden says, like... you need to shut the fuck up and you can never talk about her that way ever again. um that actually, i was like, Ooh, hold it.
01:32:12
Ryan
Okay.
01:32:12
Shauna (she/her)
but That's, you know...
01:32:12
Ryan
That was kind of hot. Like work. You should have had that energy a long fucking time ago, but here we are.
01:32:19
Dara
Yeah.
01:32:20
Ryan
um But the fact that he does it and he's, I, I, all caps, oh my God, he's giving the you're in love with me speech. And then, oh my God, they're talking about a three-way.
01:32:31
Ryan
Oh my God, this three-way needs to happen. Like, sure.
01:32:34
Dara
Yeah.
01:32:35
Ryan
Why was that the option? But Shauna, why wouldn't it be the option if what we're, if we're being honest, sometimes you just gotta to fuck your friends.
01:32:42
Dara
yeah
01:32:42
Shauna (she/her)
That's fair.
01:32:45
Shauna (she/her)
Okay, I guess maybe the... Why was it at the option at that point?
01:32:49
Ryan
Right, like right.
01:32:49
Shauna (she/her)
Perhaps the after...
01:32:50
Dara
Why?
01:32:51
Shauna (she/her)
After being like, the like, oh, I just need to get on your level. And I was like, okay, but like, why? Like, maybe, but like, I get where you feel very...
01:33:00
Dara
Go slut around town to get on level. Like if you need to.
01:33:05
Ryan
Right, right. Go fuck a bunch of random people.
01:33:08
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah.
01:33:08
Ryan
Go have unique sexual experiences.
01:33:09
Shauna (she/her)
Like, is one threesome really going to fix you? Because I don't know that it is. Like, if that's really, like, well, sure, you've had x um x y and Z experiences, but this one threesome will be...
01:33:15
Dara
right.
01:33:20
Shauna (she/her)
Like, that's not how it's going to work, man.
01:33:23
Ryan
Yeah, i someone should have said that to me at 17.
01:33:23
Shauna (she/her)
Like, it is not going to be enough, and...
01:33:25
Ryan
You think this one threesome is going to be so...
01:33:25
Dara
and like And also like continuing the proposition, not paying any attention to her face either. Because like Alyssa is like making the like, oh my, no, no, this is the worst thing ever, like holding her face during, and he's still just going on.
01:33:35
Ryan
Right, right.
01:33:43
Dara
He's like, yeah, I've got this plan.
01:33:45
Shauna (she/her)
And also that she would want to have sex with this very homophobic friend of like, who's been nothing but shitty to her.
01:33:51
Ryan
This very homophobic friend that's been a piece of shit.
01:33:51
Dara
that.
01:33:53
Ryan
Right, exactly. um i do really love, i see i I said the way that she's quietly responding to this is much more appropriately acted than anything else.
01:33:54
Dara
Yeah.
01:34:02
Ryan
Like the calmness about her when she says, no, I'm not going to do it after Banky, like the homosexual that he is automatically agrees to it.
01:34:06
Dara
Yeah. Hmm.
01:34:11
Dara
yeah
01:34:13
Ryan
um But i so I like her speech, except that it's kind of conservative in a weird way. Like, oh, once you meet the right man, it'll all go away.
01:34:19
Shauna (she/her)
o
01:34:22
Ryan
But I don't know. i don't remember what that was in reference to.
01:34:26
Shauna (she/her)
Well, it was like, I don't need to do these things anymore. Like, I was like, maybe you don't need to.
01:34:29
Ryan
Right.
01:34:30
Shauna (she/her)
Like, ah yeah, but I was like, it was like a little one. Again, like, it just was like, none of this was really the, like.
01:34:35
Ryan
Right. But I am obsessed with everyone knowing that Banky is gay. Like, Alyssa being like, yeah, you're fucking gay, by the way. Like, you know who knows people are gay?
01:34:43
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah, you win. He's yours.
01:34:45
Ryan
Oh, that was so... Good.
01:34:49
Shauna (she/her)
So shady, so perfectly just like...
01:34:50
Ryan
Such a good line.
01:34:53
Ryan
Yeah.
01:34:53
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah, God.
Nostalgia and Queer Representation in Media
01:34:55
Ryan
um Okay, so the final scene, um the elevator kid, I don't remember what that is in reference to. is there an Is there another escalator kid stuck in the escalator joke at the end of it?
01:35:07
Shauna (she/her)
Oh, well, I mean, um um no, this is a sailboat kit, because Ethan Su plays in at the end.
01:35:10
Dara
yeah
01:35:13
Ryan
what is What is the the elevator kit? don't remember what that means.
01:35:18
Shauna (she/her)
I don't know what Elvader kid is.
01:35:18
Dara
well in mall rats there's the kids stuck in the escalator but i don't know yeah
01:35:21
Ryan
Right. I thought i thought there was...
01:35:22
Shauna (she/her)
Well, and then there's the guy who couldn't see the sailboat, who talks about the way that, like, you draw boobs, I just love them.
01:35:25
Ryan
Right.
01:35:28
Shauna (she/her)
Like, and, like, they're so realistic. like because he, like, because now Jason Lee has his own, like, comic baby Huey or some fucking shit. And, like, and he was like, the way you draw, like, those most real boobs, love it, man.
01:35:41
Shauna (she/her)
Like...
01:35:42
Ryan
Um, the So we are in this final scene that is like another convention-esque thing and Holden and Banky see each other across the room because none of them are connected anymore.
01:35:55
Ryan
Holden and Banky, we find out, have gone their separate ways.
01:35:56
Shauna (she/her)
I
01:35:58
Ryan
um And obviously Alyssa and Holden have stayed broken up. And there's this moment where Holden and Banky see each other across the room and start making like hand signals at each other.
01:36:12
Ryan
um and i didn't know if it was supposed to be weird and like right like was i was i supposed to follow what they were saying okay god got it got it
01:36:17
Dara
Yeah.
01:36:21
Shauna (she/her)
have no idea. like i i didn't follow it.
01:36:22
Dara
No, no idea.
01:36:24
Shauna (she/her)
Like, have watched that movie many a time as seen by the fact that I have not had the, like, well how this movie goes.
01:36:31
Ryan
right right first life's not for me yeah
01:36:32
Shauna (she/her)
And I'm like, oh, well, then of course we go to this scene. And then, like, because this is one of the movies that I've probably seen the most in my life is Chasing Amy.
01:36:34
Dara
Yeah.
01:36:39
Shauna (she/her)
I love this stupid movie so much.
01:36:43
Ryan
And way
01:36:43
Shauna (she/her)
Because I love you and not in a friend way, though we make very great friends.
01:36:48
Ryan
the way that
01:36:51
Ryan
They don't see each other. It's like I wrote, oh, my God, the idea of not seeing someone you dated for over a year and having no idea what's going on in their life. What a novel fucking concept.
01:37:03
Ryan
you Like, holy shit. I forgot there was ah a point in time where you just once your ex was out of your life, your ex was out of your life and then you just never saw them again or knew what happened.
01:37:05
Dara
Yeah.
01:37:13
Ryan
Like, I guess that's still true in many ways. But like, damn, that seems like a pleasant way to live.
01:37:21
Dara
Yeah, I mean,
01:37:21
Ryan
Not that I like don't want to see my
01:37:23
Dara
so That's not super weird.
01:37:24
Shauna (she/her)
Alright, no, but like, and except for the fact that he still wrote a whole comic book about it and then was like here you go i've been I've been drawing you, that's a normal thing.
01:37:30
Ryan
Yep.
01:37:35
Ryan
Right.
01:37:35
Shauna (she/her)
and it's definitely you, and it's definitely me, no artistic license here, my friend, it is us, and I'm telling everybody...
01:37:42
Dara
Your name and everything.
01:37:45
Shauna (she/her)
and was it Oh yeah, and I'm making money off of it.
01:37:45
Ryan
And it.
01:37:47
Shauna (she/her)
Not much, but i'm still like it's weird.
01:37:49
Ryan
Right. But the the final part, like my literal last note is so, you know, she's with a woman again. She's there. They have this little interaction um between Holden and Alyssa.
01:38:04
Ryan
And then i think either after Holden leaves or something, her girlfriend comes back and they, you know, they kind of established that they were dating by way of like how they talk to each other.
01:38:14
Dara
Yeah.
01:38:14
Ryan
backfriend i wrote That girlfriend sucks, and then in parentheses, at acting. like It wasn't it was great. It was really hard to believe that they were a couple, and also, ooh.
01:38:22
Dara
No.
01:38:27
Ryan
That's my last note on this movie. The new girlfriend sucks at acting. Closing thoughts.
01:38:31
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah.
01:38:32
Ryan
Closing thoughts on chasing Amy before we get to ah the most important part of the show.
01:38:38
Dara
I mean, think my closing about it is just the, there are some media that we all have really great nostalgia for. um Like, just like I think this is the movie Sean has probably seen the most, you know that I don't know that if it's the one I've seen the most, but it's definitely top five.
01:38:55
Dara
um
01:38:55
Ryan
Yeah.
01:38:56
Dara
Like, we've watched it a lot, but it's not the best queer media out there by any means. But at the time when it came out, Like, you had to go into some pretty like niche art spaces to find a film that had as much representation as it did.
01:39:06
Shauna (she/her)
It
01:39:12
Shauna (she/her)
it was probably the first gay movie I ever watched.
01:39:15
Ryan
Yeah, I, um...
01:39:16
Shauna (she/her)
Honestly. like and it was the first time really seeing gay people screen in that way.
01:39:18
Ryan
that's a great question.
01:39:22
Shauna (she/her)
like because yeah like i never watched like Will and Grace kind of stuff because that really wasn't me. like but so like getting to see that in that kind of way was very... you know i mean, what year did Ellen come out?
01:39:36
Shauna (she/her)
like
01:39:36
Ryan
Late 97?
01:39:37
Shauna (she/her)
like the Ellen episode.
01:39:37
Ryan
Yeah. yeah
01:39:39
Ryan
When did allen come out on her show?
01:39:41
Shauna (she/her)
let's say
01:39:44
Ryan
97.
01:39:44
Shauna (she/her)
Let's see. 1997, which is also the same year that Chasing Amy came out.
01:39:48
Dara
Interesting.
01:39:49
Ryan
And it's, you know, to your point around like, what I think we have talked about, like, it can't be all things to all people, but for some people raised at a certain time and a certain experience, it is a very important film in the same way to me to Wong Fu, Thanks for Everything, Love, Julie Newmar, which is probably the first gay movie that I ever saw.
01:40:15
Ryan
Like that, aside from having Stockard Channing, that had some of the most like pivotal moments of my like queer understanding.
01:40:15
Shauna (she/her)
Okay.
01:40:22
Dara
Yeah.
01:40:25
Ryan
um And that when you said that, Shauna, that maybe that's like a great question. What is the first gay movie you ever saw, Dara? Do you think it was that one?
01:40:32
Dara
But I'm a cheerleader. I saw it in ah in an art theater with my first girlfriend.
01:40:34
Ryan
Oh, work, okay.
01:40:40
Shauna (she/her)
yeah
01:40:40
Dara
Canon. Super canon.
01:40:42
Ryan
Gay.
01:40:43
Dara
Oh, so incredible.
01:40:43
Ryan
Gay supercanons.
01:40:44
Dara
So fucking gay. Saw it the year it came out.
01:40:47
Shauna (she/her)
when like thinking like Dara's parents were very surprised when I was the one like like in that kind of funny way like but also just gosh like thinking about like sit got but I mentioned earlier no but those experiences and like too long foo a I think that Patrick Swayze's character is absolutely a proto trans woman like
01:40:47
Dara
Date myself hard. ah
01:40:54
Ryan
Yeah.
01:40:57
Dara
Yeah.
01:40:59
Ryan
Yeah.
01:41:05
Ryan
Yeah.
01:41:06
Dara
Like...
01:41:15
Ryan
Sure.
01:41:15
Shauna (she/her)
in like abs like the way that they've talked about her was again and it's in that same way of the going back again to our beginning conversation in the way that drag and transness were in many ways overlapping and intersecting and to go out dressed as a woman is to be in drag versus today's modern definition which is to say it to go out and drag is to perform as a different or more exaggerated gender
01:41:16
Ryan
Totally.
01:41:16
Dara
Oh, yeah.
01:41:31
Ryan
Yeah.
01:41:40
Ryan
Right.
01:41:44
Ryan
Right. um yes perform gender right
01:41:46
Shauna (she/her)
Or I should say, yeah, it's to perform gender, not necessarily a different. It's to perform gender versus just to be like, if going to the mall is going out in drag, which is how it was in the and 2000s.
01:41:52
Dara
yeah
01:41:57
Ryan
right we all do it right so dara go ahead you look like you're gonna say something
01:41:59
Shauna (she/her)
Right. Right. right
01:42:05
Dara
No, I'm trying to pick... Because there was like a ah notorious evening where my friends and I have got every gay movie with Get Out of the Library. And I'm trying to remember what the third one was because it was Hedwig and...
01:42:20
Dara
Quills, and something else, and I can't remember what the third one was.
01:42:25
Ryan
I've never even heard of quilts before.
01:42:27
Dara
It's more BDSM than anything, and it's more queer adjacent, but...
01:42:31
Ryan
Got it. So we are at the important part of the show where we ask a couple of questions. Before we get to the pivotal question, something that came up in I don't remember if it was a previous conversation that we've had or if it was in another podcast that I've listened to,
01:42:51
Ryan
but what piece of nerd memorabilia would you steal from this movie? Like if it were real, what would you take?
01:42:57
Shauna (she/her)
Well, it's not the movie poster.
01:43:00
Ryan
The Chasing Amy movie poster?
01:43:02
Dara
It's a terrible poster. It's just, and Shawna had this on her wall.
01:43:04
Ryan
Oh.
01:43:04
Shauna (she/her)
i got a sweet gift, and it was this giant, like, four or five feet tall poster of just Joey Lauren Adams' head.
01:43:16
Ryan
Well, yeah, I remember being in Blockbuster and seeing the Chasing Amy cover, and maybe it was just, like, gay not a gay like um yeah ESP, but I always looked at it and be like, I kind of want to see that movie.
01:43:20
Dara
Hmm.
01:43:30
Ryan
Like, as a young person, I have a memory of seeing that big-ass picture of Joey Lauren Adams.
01:43:32
Dara
Yeah.
01:43:37
Shauna (she/her)
Okay, so I think I'm between couple things, though, to your actual question.
01:43:37
Ryan
What, um...
01:43:38
Dara
Hey, what are you, Chamus?
01:43:42
Ryan
Mm-hmm.
01:43:42
Shauna (she/her)
i think it's either going to be the painting that Alyssa buys for Holden, or it's the like maybe like a comic book of Bloodman and Chronic or something like that.
01:43:46
Dara
This elbow. Yeah.
01:43:53
Ryan
Yeah.
01:43:55
Shauna (she/her)
like I think that would be kind of cool to have like one of their
01:43:56
Ryan
Yeah.
01:44:00
Shauna (she/her)
Banky's hat is like a weird, like, kind of, right?
01:44:02
Ryan
Sure. His tango hat.
01:44:05
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah. Or Ben Affleck's goatee.
01:44:09
Ryan
Uh-huh.
01:44:09
Shauna (she/her)
think, no, no.
01:44:09
Ryan
Uh-huh. Important. Dara, is there one that you would take?
01:44:12
Dara
I think it's probably the sailboat from the diner for me too. um
01:44:16
Ryan
Yeah.
01:44:17
Dara
But I also just like love art from media, like paintings that are in the background of things and like making them is fun.
01:44:21
Ryan
Yeah.
01:44:25
Shauna (she/her)
Hmm.
01:44:26
Ryan
Yeah, I think I would steal like a the pack of cigarettes that Holden smokes, like, just for the sake of having those.
01:44:33
Dara
Hmm.
01:44:36
Ryan
um
01:44:37
Shauna (she/her)
Alyssa's outfit while dancing.
01:44:37
Ryan
Now the most this is what
01:44:40
Shauna (she/her)
or while singing.
01:44:41
Dara
Yeah.
01:44:41
Shauna (she/her)
Alyssa's outfit while singing.
01:44:43
Ryan
Oh yeah, that's the piece that I want.
01:44:43
Shauna (she/her)
like
01:44:44
Dara
Oh, yeah.
01:44:45
Ryan
I want Alyssa's top and bra combo.
01:44:45
Dara
Yeah.
01:44:47
Ryan
um So this is not a very hard question. um Dara, who is the hottest character in Chasing Amy?
01:44:56
Dara
Alyssa's girlfriend during the singing scene.
01:44:59
Ryan
You are both so funny.
01:45:01
Ryan
All right, I'll take it.
01:45:02
Shauna (she/her)
I was gonna say ka is a Kim.
01:45:03
Dara
Yeah.
01:45:04
Shauna (she/her)
ah he was like, fucking that short blonde hair girl in the fucking white shirt.
01:45:04
Dara
Yeah, it's Kim. It's Kim, yeah.
01:45:07
Ryan
Yeah.
01:45:08
Shauna (she/her)
Oh, she's so fucking hot.
01:45:10
Dara
got the seven of nine hair.
01:45:11
Ryan
Yeah. yeah
01:45:13
Shauna (she/her)
yeah i was like, clearly the woman, I was like, you know what? Or ben Affleck. No, you fucking go after that girl.
01:45:18
Dara
not that bad.
01:45:20
Shauna (she/her)
Obviously, all day, any day. She's so much fucking hotter.
01:45:23
Dara
Yeah.
01:45:23
Ryan
Yeah. Yeah. I think my, I mean, mine is a
01:45:25
Shauna (she/her)
and like the way that like Alyssa like fucking like scruffs up the back of her head like when they're like and' so It's Kim all day.
01:45:34
Ryan
Yeah. I think mine is Alyssa. I don't know. Like, I want to say Hooper X out of solidarity, but like, he's not, I don't find him attractive.
01:45:37
Shauna (she/her)
and the Good answer. Don't get me wrong.
01:45:42
Ryan
um I think he's my favorite, like B character.
01:45:45
Dara
He's the most attractive guy.
01:45:47
Ryan
Sure. Sure. Sure. for sure um Ben Affleck did have something in the nineties. Like I see it.
01:45:52
Shauna (she/her)
e No, no.
01:45:54
Ryan
I see.
01:45:54
Shauna (she/her)
it's a He was attractive in that movie. He was attractive in that movie. like We're giving him shit, but...
01:45:58
Ryan
I see how they wanted us to be attracted to him, but I can't say that I was. But so actually I am going to say Hooper X because I think his politics were the hottest.
01:46:07
Ryan
Like, and I'm going to be honest, if your politics suck, I don't think you're attractive.
01:46:08
Shauna (she/her)
o
01:46:09
Dara
Yeah.
01:46:11
Ryan
So it's not banky.
01:46:12
Dara
yeah
01:46:12
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah, so it's not banky.
01:46:15
Ryan
um
01:46:15
Dara
No.
01:46:15
Ryan
So we will ah wrap up our episode there. um You can follow us at realhotnerdpod on Instagram, at Helen Pastels on Blue Sky, at Intuitive Blurred on Blue Sky,
01:46:31
Ryan
um Dara, anything you want to push? You are kind of like an important queer person. So is there anything that you want to to say?
01:46:40
Dara
Uh, Yeah, I mean, i I don't use my personal socials publicly anymore.
01:46:44
Ryan
Yeah.
01:46:45
Dara
um But yeah, if people want to help some trans folks in Ohio, trans Ohio and all socials, we've got lots of good free legal services, mutual aid, and good good harm reduction going all around.
01:46:59
Ryan
Amen. Thank you for your hard work. um especially right now, because I am proximal to it or or tangential to it. And I don't know how you do it other than having wonderful people around you.
01:47:10
Dara
It is helpful to have, yeah.
01:47:10
Ryan
um yeah We will be back, I believe, our next installment. So it's we're filming this on June 17th.
01:47:20
Shauna (she/her)
Thank you.
01:47:21
Ryan
Ironheart comes out next week. And i I think that's what we should do for our next run of of of episodes is the Ironheart series. So um stay tuned for that.
01:47:31
Ryan
um But thanks for listening. And we'll see you next time. gang.