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17: Bonus! The People's Joker with Jaclyn Moore
30 Plays3 months ago
You know it's so good to watch trans-led films, especially during Oscars season. Oh wait, not that shitty one with the racist lady. This episode, we're talking about The People's Joker which our special guest Hot Nerd, Jaclyn Moore, rated as "10 estrogen pills up!"
Follow us on Instagram at @realhotnerdpod!
Opinions shared by the hosts and/or guests of Real Hot Nerd Shit are their own and do not represent any workplace or organization with whom they may or may not be affiliated.
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Transcript
Introduction & Focus on 'The People's Joker'
00:00:26
Ryan
to Real Hot Nerd Shit, a pop culture podcast where real hot nerds talk about real nerd shit. I'm your host, Ryan.
00:00:35
Shauna (she/her)
And I'm your co-host, Shauna.
00:00:36
Ryan
And on this episode of Real Hot Nerd Shit, we'll be talking about the movie ah The People's Joker in our theme.
00:00:43
Shauna (she/her)
Wait, I thought we were talking about the really important trans movie that's coming out and that's up for all these awards. And that's, wait, that's not The People's Joker?
00:00:53
Ryan
It should be, is what the answer is.
00:00:54
Shauna (she/her)
Okay. Because I was like, what other, what else could it be?
00:00:56
Ryan
Yeah.
00:00:57
Shauna (she/her)
Oh, oh, it's I Saw the TV Glow.
00:00:58
Ryan
No.
00:01:00
Shauna (she/her)
That's what it is.
00:01:00
Ryan
Yes. I like, I, my note is, no, it's not that one either.
00:01:03
Shauna (she/her)
And not that one either?
00:01:05
Ryan
Um, in my, in my little script, it says, um, we'll be talking about the people's Joker in our theme of movies that are better than that shitty Oscar awarded one. Did it win? I didn't even, okay. Anyway, sorry.
00:01:17
Ryan
Pause. Interviews
Guest Introduction: Jacqueline Moore
00:01:18
Ryan
are guests. Yeah.
00:01:20
Shauna (she/her)
No, right into it. So on this guest, we have a very special guest, Jacqueline Moore, who is a friend of mine who we had found out that we had a very funny thing in common a few years ago.
00:01:34
Jaclyn
Hello, hello.
00:01:34
Shauna (she/her)
So we both ended up Yes, hello, welcome first, hello, welcome.
00:01:34
Ryan
What's the funny thing in common?
00:01:35
Jaclyn
We did.
00:01:39
Jaclyn
Hello, hello. We did find out something fun in common.
00:01:42
Ryan
Jeez, I can only imagine.
00:01:43
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah.
00:01:43
Ryan
Okay.
00:01:44
Shauna (she/her)
So... you know, I'm at a party at a friend's house and all of a sudden, ah you know, the my high school came up and I went to a purportedly all boys high school in that is a Catholic school.
00:01:56
Ryan
Allegedly.
00:01:58
Shauna (she/her)
And so i was, you know, I love and telling my favorite joke, which is, well, cause our, you know, one of like our tagline is like in like the, the motto, the theme song of the school is we're all Ignatius men forever.
00:01:58
Ryan
Yeah.
00:02:14
Shauna (she/her)
and I'm like, well, we're not, All men forever. And so I just, it always makes me giggle. You know, i was really, you know, I was being a man for others back then.
00:02:24
Shauna (she/her)
That was, let's go, I'm going to hit all these, if you know, you know.
00:02:24
Ryan
Yes.
00:02:27
Ryan
For the people, if you will, yeah.
00:02:27
Jaclyn
I love it. I love all the flashbacks.
00:02:29
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah, for the I'm sure there's one Ignatian grad somewhere in there. But when I made that joke, they're like, well, wait, do you know Jacqueline Moore? And I was like, actually, And I'm like, yeah, well, she was, you know, a couple years before you And I was
Jacqueline's Career Journey
00:02:43
Shauna (she/her)
like, oh, my God. Like, that's such a small world that we would both have this experience at the same school. Like, I was like, you know, it was like, you know, like I knew other queer kids, but I didn't know another trans person. but And having...
00:02:57
Shauna (she/her)
And I was like, oh my gosh, this trans woman. So I looked her up on Twitter and I was like, hey, by the way. And so like being in each other's Twitter DMs was how our friendship started.
00:03:08
Ryan
Yay!
00:03:08
Jaclyn
It is. Although I would like the clipt to clarify, I believe you were a couple years before me. Not to put you on glass.
00:03:14
Shauna (she/her)
no no, no. I'm the older one.
00:03:15
Ryan
No, wait.
00:03:16
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah.
00:03:16
Ryan
yeah yeah, yeah, you were.
00:03:18
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah, yeah.
00:03:18
Jaclyn
Yeah.
00:03:18
Shauna (she/her)
I'm the older one. Whichever one whichever way is the way that I'm the older one.
00:03:20
Jaclyn
yeah
00:03:22
Ryan
Yes.
00:03:22
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah.
00:03:22
Jaclyn
Yes, yes, yes.
00:03:23
Shauna (she/her)
As I'm 30 or 40 years old. Yeah.
00:03:25
Ryan
Correct. While Jacqueline and I are just hanging out in our mid-30s indefinitely.
00:03:29
Shauna (she/her)
Mm-hmm.
00:03:32
Jaclyn
Yeah, exactly. I've been in my mid-30s for a few years now, and I look forward to the next decade or so of it, and it's going to be great.
00:03:37
Ryan
It's a beautiful time. It's a beautiful time. So um I am just thrilled because I don't, this sounds so corny, but like I don't know lot of people in the biz, um but it is a fascinating world that I um would love to hear like a snippet of like how you got into media and like anything prize projects that people should know you for or check out or et cetera?
00:04:09
Jaclyn
Yeah. Um, well, I, the things you might know me, my work from is I was a writer, producer, and eventually co-showrunner of Dear White People on Netflix.
00:04:23
Jaclyn
Um, I was hired to be a writer and producer for the first three years that show, was promoted each year, and then Justin Simeon, who created that show, and is a very good friend of mine who we met doing that show.
00:04:23
Ryan
think
00:04:36
Jaclyn
Um, asked me if I would run the final season with him, which was amazing. um And then I show ran the reboot of Queer as Folk, which is currently unavailable to watch on any streaming service, but it has been removed from streaming services, but you can still buy it on iTunes and probably find it on the high seas.
00:04:50
Shauna (she/her)
Is it really?
00:04:59
Jaclyn
It's pretty good. There's actually a plot point in the movie that we are going to watch that
00:05:02
Shauna (she/her)
I enjoyed it.
00:05:06
Jaclyn
is very similar to a plot point in the kind of, seminal episode of that version of Queer as Folk, I would say. ah Certainly the trans episode of that version of Queer as Folk.
00:05:18
Jaclyn
um And then most recently, I've been show running, co-show running and writing and producing um the Peacock Show based on a true story starring Kaylee Cuoco and Chris Messina, which is a very fun, and Melissa Fumero, Amy from Brooklyn Nine-Nine.
00:05:36
Jaclyn
It's a very fun sort of, uh, Coen brothers-y two suburbanites in over their heads with murderers and crime. And it's a very fun show. So give that a watch, uh, so that we can get a third season and I can keep, um, having a job cause that's nice.
00:05:54
Jaclyn
Um, and I broke in randomly.
00:05:55
Ryan
Okay, so yeah.
00:05:57
Jaclyn
Um, I broke into the business totally randomly.
Themes in 'Queer as Folk'
00:06:01
Jaclyn
I went to NYU for playwriting and, um, uh, just knew I wanted to write scripts, write movies, write TV, write theater.
00:06:09
Jaclyn
And I wrote a bunch of stuff. Uh, nobody read any of it. Um, and I put up plays off, off, off to the power of a hundred Broadway. and,
00:06:21
Jaclyn
And nobody saw them. And I did stand-up comedy. And people did come see me do stand-up. I did stand-up for a number of years in New York. um And then i had fallen into working in the media. I was hired at BuzzFeed in its early days. I worked at GQ.
00:06:37
Jaclyn
um But it was actually a Twitter account that I created with a comedian friend of mine, Josh Gondelman, who was one of the writers on John Oliver for many years and was the showrunner on Desus and Miro eventually.
00:06:46
Ryan
yeah yeah
00:06:51
Jaclyn
um We created a Twitter account back when Twitter was fun called ah seinfeld Modern Seinfeld, Seinfeld Today. And it was basically what Seinfeld episodes would be um if they were today. Like what would modern plots of that show look like?
00:07:06
Jaclyn
And that led us both to getting signed with agents and getting Hollywood careers because we had a bunch of scripts that nobody would read and suddenly people would read them. And for the last decade or so, I've been writing TV and movies and trying to just stay in the business.
00:07:23
Jaclyn
And I was able to transition during that time and they didn't kick me out. So hopefully that means I get to keep being a a Hollywood writer, a fancy pants Hollywood writer.
00:07:35
Ryan
I'm like, obviously, um
00:07:38
Ryan
Dear White People is a favorite. ah This just is a reminder that I need to go back and watch the last couple of seasons because now I feel even more compelled. i just stopped watching just you know out of that thing that happens.
00:07:51
Jaclyn
Nothing that happens.
00:07:53
Ryan
And Queer as Folk, I've talked to Shauna about this. i she She has another thing that she has... encouraged me strongly to do or consider. i was so I worked at the LGBT Center of Greater Cleveland during the Pulse nightclub shooting and knowing that that was what centered, like that was kind of one of the pivotal parts of like the very first episode. I was like, I don't know if I can handle that, but i feel again, even more compelled just to
00:08:25
Ryan
one now talking to a showrunner of the show, but Shauna and other people have like really said you kind of have to get through it because it's, you know, a, yeah.
00:08:33
Jaclyn
you know It's a show I'm really proud of, and it's a show that is starts with a tragedy, or at least like, i mean, it doesn't start with a tragedy, but the pilot episode is built around a Pulse nightclub-like shooting.
00:08:40
Ryan
Yeah.
00:08:47
Ryan
Mm-hmm.
00:08:47
Jaclyn
And that is obviously a very tough thing and a very hard thing. But like one of the things that I'm really proud of about the show is that it's actually not about the tragedy.
00:08:58
Ryan
Sure.
00:08:58
Jaclyn
He uses the tragedy to explore queer joy in the face of pain and in the face of um hatred. And it's actually something that I think especially now feels pretty resonant.
00:09:13
Jaclyn
Oh, hello.
00:09:13
Ryan
Oh my God.
00:09:13
Jaclyn
My cat has joined.
00:09:14
Ryan
Hi.
00:09:15
Jaclyn
um
00:09:15
Ryan
Who's that?
00:09:17
Jaclyn
That's Estelle. Hi, Estelle. Whenever work is being done, she decides she has to go on the computer. um But it's a show about about community coming together in the face of of tragedy. and i um It is available to purchase on iTunes. I don't think it's that expensive.
00:09:33
Jaclyn
I recommend people do that. Or, again, whatever. Find a way to watch it.
00:09:38
Jaclyn
It's really good.
00:09:38
Ryan
Yeah, we're all we're all we're all of a certain age that, you know, we have and criminal records related to the Internet.
00:09:40
Shauna (she/her)
No,
00:09:41
Jaclyn
Avoid marinating.
00:09:46
Ryan
But.
00:09:47
Shauna (she/her)
no but honestly, i really was, and you hit it, I think that it is actually very appropriate to watch at this moment in a way that, like, because everything is such a
00:09:48
Jaclyn
Yes.
00:09:59
Shauna (she/her)
fucking nightmare that it's very it is nice to kind of have something that is about a different nightmare that you can then find your own sense of joy about as we are doing that with such as being here today talking with you all like and it's those ways of trying to find the joy through it and the perseverance that our community is so incredibly known for because we've unfortunately had to be and so
00:10:09
Ryan
Right. Right.
00:10:27
Shauna (she/her)
i Yeah, cant I would highly recommend it. And, you know, i felt very connected to, you know, the trans character, obviously, in it, who also went to a purportedly all-boys school run by the Jesuits.
00:10:41
Jaclyn
It was maybe a very autobiographical episode about Shauna and my high school experience.
00:10:41
Shauna (she/her)
So...
00:10:46
Ryan
Oh, I can't wait.
00:10:46
Jaclyn
Not together, but separately. Yeah.
00:10:49
Ryan
Yeah.
00:10:50
Shauna (she/her)
yeah Yeah, separately but together in the, like, yeah. Because I was a senior when you were a freshman.
00:10:54
Ryan
And it is not.
00:10:56
Shauna (she/her)
So we did overlap. we did overlap
00:10:58
Jaclyn
Oh my God. That makes so, the fact that you were a senior when I was a freshman makes, makes our DMs feel so much more charged.
00:10:59
Shauna (she/her)
If but briefly.
00:11:04
Ryan
Oh my God.
00:11:05
Shauna (she/her)
know, right?
00:11:06
Ryan
You sluts. You nasty little sluts. um So we, before we jump into, we already kind of, yeah.
00:11:13
Shauna (she/her)
That's the tagline. That's the...
00:11:15
Jaclyn
Yes, two nasty little sluts.
00:11:17
Ryan
You nasty little sluts. um Yeah. before we jump into the general banter per portion, ah one of the things that we always ask, you know, so this podcast is about being a nerd and you can be a nerd about all sorts of things. So if a nerd is someone who is weirdly knowledgeable and passionate about something that some people might find uncool, Jacqueline, what are you a nerd about?
00:11:44
Jaclyn
I'm an odd nerd in that I'm like equal parts obsessive about sports. And like, I'm a watch every single I've watched every single Cleveland Cavaliers game for the last 20 years, 25 years.
00:11:59
Jaclyn
um But I also have a Stephen Sondheim knuckle tattoo. So I'm like, I'm
Interests in Sports & Theater
00:12:06
Jaclyn
a musical theater faggot, but also a, you know, a,
00:12:08
Ryan
She contains multitudes.
00:12:12
Jaclyn
um a sports queer so i'm i'm very deep into um yeah into musical theater but i also like literally i have a cassette deck sitting next to my computer right now because i've gotten very nerdy about making old-fashioned mixtapes like this is like a phoebe bridgers this a phoebe bridgers ethel kane like live only mixtape that i've been playing lately which has been really good um which is also just like
00:12:28
Ryan
Honey.
00:12:28
Shauna (she/her)
I love that.
00:12:28
Ryan
me
00:12:36
Shauna (she/her)
Amazing.
00:12:38
Ryan
Okay, so do you just like hold a tape recorder to your like speaker?
00:12:43
Jaclyn
never No, it is ah it is currently... It hooks up to my computer. And so I can go find great like YouTube bootlegs and recordings of different performers and put together mixtapes. If you actually look behind me, you will see a shelf of just cassette tapes.
00:13:01
Jaclyn
You'll also see a bunch of typewriters.
00:13:01
Ryan
Oh my God.
00:13:04
Jaclyn
The cat is currently sitting on another typewriter. um i am a real nerd in like so many ways.
00:13:10
Jaclyn
um i You know, i definitely have an ADHD diagnosis that I've very much earned um and i have lots of special interests.
00:13:10
Ryan
Yeah.
00:13:21
Shauna (she/her)
Thank you.
00:13:22
Ryan
For several of those reasons, um you and my ex-husband would have a blast together um He is also ah obsessed with Stephen Sondheim, like did one of the last shows he did um in Cleveland, because now he lives in DC, was a show called Sondheim on Sondheim.
00:13:40
Jaclyn
I love Sondheim on Sondheim.
00:13:40
Ryan
And yeah, I obviously saw it, you know, multiple times because he was in it.
00:13:45
Ryan
And I never really thought of myself as a Stephen Sondheim fan. And then I was like, okay, because I am a musical theater homosexual. i It's through and through. um My first tattoo was almost the comedy and tragedy masks.
00:14:00
Ryan
And I know my mom was like, you can get whatever you want, but I'm telling you, don't get that.
00:14:01
Jaclyn
Incredible.
00:14:01
Shauna (she/her)
Hmm.
00:14:01
Shauna (she/her)
Hmm.
00:14:09
Ryan
Like...
00:14:10
Jaclyn
Though it would be fitting for this episode.
00:14:12
Ryan
Correct.
00:14:13
Shauna (she/her)
o
00:14:14
Ryan
I'm so excited to talk about this episode. So before we jump into
Cleveland's Potential in Women's Sports
00:14:17
Ryan
it, um let's get caught up on what's happening in the world. First and foremost, um to Shauna's absolute delight and arguably something that she has um predicted and and perhaps spoken into fruition, as it sounds like perhaps Jacqueline has as well,
00:14:39
Ryan
ah Guess who's back in the house? It's the Cleveland Rockers, our very own WNBA team. Shauna, tell us everything that we need to know.
00:14:49
Shauna (she/her)
So I'm so excited. WNBA, women's sports is booming, and the WNBA especially. So they recently just added another franchise in Golden State, the Golden State Valkyries. And they're like, all right, we want to add one more with another potential too.
00:15:06
Shauna (she/her)
And we went through all the cities, and about a month or two ago, we'd seen a report that some trademarks had been renewed by the WNBA, the Cleveland Rockers being one of them.
00:15:17
Shauna (she/her)
And sure enough, it came out. Dan Gilbert, boatload of money, loves putting it into the things that he does. And so he's like, all right, I'm just going to build another new fancy practice facility for the Cavs closer to their arena.
00:15:30
Shauna (she/her)
And then the already state-of-the-art practice facility that they already have in Independence, that can be for the WNBA. And it's perfect because having that space, having the fan base,
00:15:37
Ryan
Yeah.
00:15:41
Shauna (she/her)
We were this close. We finished second in the and NWSL soccer bid. We were very close to having a pro soccer team.
00:15:46
Jaclyn
It is Oh, it's hot.
00:15:49
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah, and so when we didn't get a women's soccer team, I was like, all right. I'm really hoping that it's like, okay, y'all can support one women's team. And I was like, please be the Cavs, because I don't care about soccer.
00:16:02
Shauna (she/her)
I wish I cared about soccer. I want to like soccer so bad.
00:16:03
Ryan
yeah It's so hot.
00:16:05
Shauna (she/her)
in... and
00:16:06
Ryan
Soccer is a really sexy sport.
00:16:06
Jaclyn
this
00:16:08
Ryan
At least I think so.
00:16:08
Shauna (she/her)
It is. No, absolutely. And it's a very gay spore, at least it was for a goodly portion.
00:16:12
Ryan
Yeah.
00:16:14
Jaclyn
ah with
00:16:15
Shauna (she/her)
okay.
00:16:15
Ryan
Mia Hamm taking her shirt off with that sports bra changed a lot of people's lives.
00:16:17
Shauna (she/her)
the
00:16:21
Jaclyn
I mean, I am a season ticket holder to the Angel City FC, which is the women's soccer team in L.A.
00:16:26
Shauna (she/her)
okay okay
00:16:29
Jaclyn
And it is great. And I love i love those girls. I mean, they were terrible this season, but they're it's the I mean, the joke is they literally sell merch that says L.A.' 's biggest lesbian bar is Angel City FC.
00:16:42
Jaclyn
um
00:16:42
Shauna (she/her)
Amazing.
00:16:43
Jaclyn
So it's great. That said, i am so excited the Rockers are coming back. It's taking everything in my power to not run to my closet and grab all of my vintage Cleveland Rockers jerseys that I have bought off eBay.
00:16:54
Ryan
it Why? Why? What? Why? Go, let me see something. I want to see something.
00:16:57
Shauna (she/her)
Amazing.
00:16:59
Jaclyn
I have so much vintage Cleveland Rockers gear that I've gotten over the years.
00:17:00
Shauna (she/her)
I'm
00:17:04
Jaclyn
Let me see if I can find any.
00:17:05
Shauna (she/her)
um so excited.
00:17:06
Ryan
Me too, because I was literally just thinking about, first of all, how bad I want Cleveland Rockers gear. Second of all, I'm certain that I have some lesbian friends that have, like, classic Cleveland Rockers merch.
00:17:12
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah.
00:17:19
Jaclyn
Oh, no.
00:17:20
Shauna (she/her)
Oh, I'm sure.
00:17:20
Jaclyn
you You know, i can't find the shirt I can't find the jerseys easily, but I do have a vintage Cleveland Rockers Eastern Conference champions, which actually didn't, you know, like,
00:17:22
Ryan
What a perfect interview.
00:17:31
Shauna (she/her)
sure. um
00:17:39
Ryan
When did they leave? when did when What's the appropriate term? When did they break up?
00:17:44
Shauna (she/her)
It was in 2001.
00:17:44
Jaclyn
When did they break up? It would have been I was going to say early two thousand s they they left because Gordon Gunn folded them because it was not making any money.
00:17:54
Ryan
yeah
00:17:56
Jaclyn
And really, the WNBA has only started becoming more profitable. I mean, they're not profitable yet, but they've started to show a path towards profitability in the last like five
00:18:01
Ryan
right
00:18:04
Jaclyn
So it feels like a big moment.
00:18:05
Shauna (she/her)
Which is not uncommon. like The NBA had a very similar situation when they were created.
00:18:07
Ryan
Yeah.
00:18:10
Ryan
The MNBA, please.
00:18:10
Jaclyn
Yes.
00:18:12
Shauna (she/her)
Yes, sir I'm sorry, the MNBA.
00:18:13
Ryan
The MNBA. Thank you.
00:18:15
Jaclyn
Yes.
00:18:15
Shauna (she/her)
Very important.
00:18:15
Ryan
Let's get it started properly.
00:18:15
Jaclyn
Yeah.
00:18:17
Shauna (she/her)
me
00:18:17
Jaclyn
The MNBA. No, it's true. Leagues take a long time towards profitability. I think it's often thrown in the W's face that it's like, oh, you didn't like they're there on like the dole from the NBA, but actually it's like, no, it's an investment as all leagues are until they blow up. And the NBA almost folded like multiple times early in its existence. So this is a very exciting time. I cannot wait.
00:18:42
Ryan
We also absolutely need to have Jacqueline on when we finally figure out a way to do the women's sports episode. um Cause that I'm sure that would be a wild conversation.
00:18:51
Jaclyn
I'm very down.
00:18:53
Ryan
Very down. So um what's like, I don't know. i literally don't even know what, what's the timeline. When, like when, when, when will I be excited to see them?
00:19:03
Shauna (she/her)
So reportedly 2028 the year is going to be our first year.
00:19:06
Ryan
Too far.
00:19:07
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah.
00:19:08
Ryan
Too far. don't like it.
00:19:08
Shauna (she/her)
And then I know it's yeah. But.
00:19:12
Jaclyn
Because there are two new teams that are or two new or one new team starting next year.
00:19:16
Shauna (she/her)
It's going to be Golden State this year and then Toronto next year, i think.
00:19:19
Jaclyn
The Valkyries. Yes. Yeah, that sounds right.
00:19:22
Ryan
I had question. I was in strategic planning for the last two days, so I genuinely am, like, raising my hand because it's just, like, been re-burned into me in terms of behavioral change.
00:19:24
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah.
00:19:32
Ryan
um The fact that it's Golden State and ah there was, you know, Golden State, what was it, Lost in Three or whatever, I don't remember, whatever everyone used to say to me.
00:19:42
Shauna (she/her)
yeah Blue at three.
00:19:43
Jaclyn
Blue a 3-1 lead.
00:19:45
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah.
00:19:45
Ryan
Yeah, they blew a three-point lead. Yes, yes. um So, i don't know I feel like there's a joke there. I feel like there's a joke there, and I just don't know what it is yet, but someone will find it.
00:19:55
Jaclyn
We're just expanding the rivalry.
00:19:57
Ryan
Exactly.
00:19:58
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah.
00:19:58
Ryan
Exactly.
00:19:59
Shauna (she/her)
And it is unfortunate, though, because the Valkyries have a very amazing... I love their color scheme. It's like... It's really good.
00:20:06
Jaclyn
The name is awesome.
00:20:06
Ryan
I need to see it because that's such a good name.
00:20:07
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah.
00:20:08
Jaclyn
the Yeah, everything about it is so good.
00:20:12
Shauna (she/her)
I mean, yeah, shout out to ah my friend, is loved.
00:20:15
Ryan
So good. Oh, and it looks like a fucking vagina.
00:20:19
Shauna (she/her)
She's so excited for it. Yeah, it was very Yannick.
00:20:21
Ryan
That's a pointy ass vagina.
00:20:23
Jaclyn
Oh, yeah, that's pretty great.
00:20:23
Ryan
Yeah.
00:20:24
Jaclyn
That's pretty great.
00:20:25
Ryan
Yeah. Wow. Sickening. Absolutely fucking sickening. God, everything is better for girls. Well, except for like, you know, a lived experience, but their shit's cooler.
00:20:38
Shauna (she/her)
Other than that.
Tribute to Michelle Trachtenberg
00:20:40
Ryan
other Other than that, you know.
00:20:40
Jaclyn
Yeah.
00:20:42
Ryan
um And then in, you know, perhaps sadder news, um we ah learned that Michelle Trachtenberg died today.
00:20:54
Jaclyn
R.I.P.
00:20:55
Ryan
man she was 39.
00:20:55
Shauna (she/her)
the
00:20:56
Ryan
Yes. thirty nine
00:20:58
Shauna (she/her)
Literally, like, grew up with her. Like, she's, you know, this about the same age as me.
00:21:01
Ryan
yeah
00:21:03
Shauna (she/her)
And, like, I remember seeing her on P&P. And then, like, that was, like, where I'm like, oh, my, like, she was a peer.
00:21:06
Ryan
yeah
00:21:09
Ryan
Harriet the Spy.
00:21:11
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah, Harriet the Spy, Dawn and Buffy, of course.
00:21:11
Ryan
Yeah, yeah.
00:21:12
Jaclyn
I
00:21:15
Ryan
We'll come back to her in one second. Did either of you watch Gossip Girl?
00:21:19
Jaclyn
i was not a gospel girl person.
00:21:19
Shauna (she/her)
Mm-mm.
00:21:21
Ryan
Yeah, no, same.
00:21:21
Shauna (she/her)
Mm-mm.
00:21:22
Ryan
Yes.
00:21:22
Jaclyn
A Euro trip meant a lot to me.
00:21:22
Ryan
shana but yeah
00:21:25
Shauna (she/her)
I loved Eurotrip. She was so good in Eurotrip.
00:21:27
Jaclyn
She was so good in Euro trip.
00:21:27
Shauna (she/her)
Okay, and it is such a Absolutely worth a rewatch. Like, I want to go back and see it. Like, again... Like, although...
00:21:34
Ryan
I'll do it because I don't think I've ever actually seen it all the way through because i bought it as a a bootleg DVD in New York City.
00:21:45
Ryan
um
00:21:45
Jaclyn
Oh my God. I love.
00:21:46
Ryan
and it pretty it Was it the same year? but Anyways, it was a really shitty quality bootleg. It was like someone literally holding a handy cam in a movie theater. never made through.
00:21:55
Shauna (she/her)
Oh my god. Those are the days.
00:21:56
Ryan
Yeah, right? oh yeah right um so there's an interesting conversation, um that Shauna and I have had that I'm just noting for now is just like the way that each of us approached femininity growing up and like what we shit did, like where I chose to engage because of, you know, my perceived ish, cis, cis, cis ishness, um, that like,
00:22:30
Shauna (she/her)
Sissiness.
00:22:31
Ryan
Yeah, exactly. that But the sissy is filled with a C in this instance, yeah.
00:22:32
Shauna (she/her)
I believe that's the technical term. Yeah. Yeah.
00:22:36
Ryan
Actually, I'm very comfortable with that as a perhaps a new moniker for my gender identity as it continues to evolve and change.
00:22:36
Shauna (she/her)
have to see.
00:22:42
Ryan
I am a sissy, but with a Because Gossip Girl was for the girl-la-za.
00:22:45
Jaclyn
I mean, then there.
00:22:45
Shauna (she/her)
and to say
00:22:51
Ryan
I just didn't like it because i i don't like i don't I don't particularly like... I call it white girl television. Like I like white women television. I like, you know, give me a big little lies.
00:23:01
Shauna (she/her)
Hmm.
00:23:02
Ryan
Give me a, you know, if I need them to be walking, if, if the main characters aren't walking around holding goblets of Chardonnay, I'm not interested.
00:23:11
Jaclyn
You need Nicole Kidman and a hairstyle.
00:23:11
Ryan
um
00:23:14
Ryan
Thank you. Thank you so much for understanding me.
00:23:15
Jaclyn
Yeah. Yeah.
00:23:18
Ryan
um So anyways, ah Michelle Trachtenberg, just gone way too soon and i'm very glad that in more public forums people are starting to realize that in the entirety of the buffy universe in characters that were introduced and kind of disliked by the public dawn is the most redeemed in terms of like yeah she was annoying she was a 14 year old girl duh
00:23:43
Shauna (she/her)
Hmm.
00:23:46
Ryan
and then you watch her growth over season six and seven, which I'm doing right now. And I just watched po potential. Are you um Buffy person, Jacqueline?
00:23:54
Jaclyn
I am not a huge Buffy person. I have seen a few seasons of it, but it's not my, there are just people in my life who would be mad about it the fact that I am not a Buffy person.
00:23:58
Ryan
Okay. Just.
00:24:04
Jaclyn
It's
00:24:04
Ryan
Yeah, no, like you're talking to two of them right now because I, when I, when I tell you it just dipped down a little bit, like I really was kind of, I was really hoping that you were going to say yes, but whatever.
00:24:06
Shauna (she/her)
Is one of the...
00:24:11
Jaclyn
there.
00:24:15
Jaclyn
I know. I know.
00:24:15
Ryan
Um, I didn't watch all of your shows, so that kind of feels fair that you broke my heart.
00:24:19
Jaclyn
There you go. It's a trade-off.
00:24:21
Ryan
There's like a balance there.
00:24:22
Jaclyn
It's true.
00:24:23
Ryan
um
00:24:23
Jaclyn
It's a real trade-off.
00:24:24
Ryan
and um Dawn was never that annoying. eve like that she was you know She was tough to to adjust to because there was no teen presence, really. like Even when they were teens, they were always you know aged up in terms of like their style and their like level of emotional intelligence and general maturity.
00:24:46
Ryan
But, like, Dawn was a teenager. And teenagers are fucking annoying.
00:24:50
Shauna (she/her)
Hmm.
00:24:52
Ryan
So, if anything, she did her job too well. And then, oh, I just watched Potential. That's what I was saying. um Which is an episode where Dawn thinks that she might be a potential vampire slayer.
00:25:04
Ryan
And it she has this whole, like... you know sort of coming to her understanding of like what her, her role in the Slayer world is. And like, spoiler alert, she is not a potential Slayer and she like gives up the power so quickly anyways. And the very last scene, it's also one of the only scenes that I ever really am like, fuck, I do love Xander sometimes.
00:25:30
Ryan
Um, He, Xander and Dawn have this conversation about being the norm, like the two normal people amongst these super powered individuals.
00:25:31
Shauna (she/her)
Mmm.
00:25:39
Ryan
And it's just fucking beautiful. And Michelle Trachtenberg acts her ass off in that episode, specifically that scene to like, it, it's, it's a standout moment in that it makes me like Xander.
00:25:54
Ryan
It's like, at this point in my life, that's saying something that it makes me be like, Xander.
00:25:54
Shauna (she/her)
Mmm.
00:25:58
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah.
00:26:00
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah, shout out to all the cishet straight people in our lives.
00:26:04
Ryan
Yeah.
00:26:04
Shauna (she/her)
That's the same thing. like
00:26:10
Jaclyn
Yeah, I know I
00:26:10
Ryan
Hey, Anthony, by the way, he texted me when he was listening to the last episode and said, obligatory podcast reference text. So here's the next one, homie.
00:26:18
Shauna (she/her)
um
00:26:19
Ryan
I swear it's coming up completely naturally. Um, so everyone pour one out for Michelle Trachtenberg. Uh, you know, why can't fucking Joss Whedon be the one that died already?
00:26:27
Jaclyn
do.
00:26:30
Ryan
Like, it's not fair that we lost Michelle before him. Also, quick question. Did she, I, my recollection ah of her role in the, um, sort of exposing of the toxicity of who that man is.
00:26:46
Ryan
Like she never actually said anything other than like there was a rule about Joss couldn't be alone in a room with her.
00:26:55
Shauna (she/her)
Right, I think almost in many ways, like, her handlers or her, like, the people on set were, things um hopefully i hopefully prevented that from being anything because of how he was.
00:26:55
Ryan
Am I
00:26:55
Jaclyn
Oh, really? Yeah.
00:27:09
Ryan
The fact that there were adult friends on the team.
00:27:10
Shauna (she/her)
Which is in in its own way damning, but also, thankfully...
00:27:14
Ryan
Yeah. Yeah.
00:27:14
Jaclyn
Whoa. Yeah, that's a bad, i can't tell you, I feel like it's something that
00:27:16
Ryan
yeah
00:27:21
Jaclyn
it's really weird for a showrunner to not be able to talk to an actor by themselves. So like the fact that that, whenever you hear someone's like, oh, they just weren't a lot like the Nickelodeon guy when it's like, oh, he wasn't allowed on set anymore.
00:27:35
Ryan
Yeah.
00:27:36
Shauna (she/her)
Oh.
00:27:38
Jaclyn
Oh, you know, he wasn't allowed to talk to, if Joss wasn't allowed to talk to Michelle Trachtenberg by himself, it's like, that's unusual. That's not like, oh, I don't know how Hollywood works.
00:27:38
Ryan
Yeah.
00:27:47
Ryan
Yeah.
00:27:49
Jaclyn
Like, no, no, that's,
00:27:50
Ryan
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's pretty cut and dry.
00:27:51
Jaclyn
crazy.
00:27:52
Ryan
Yeah.
00:27:53
Jaclyn
That's crazy.
00:27:53
Ryan
yeah
00:27:54
Jaclyn
Like so much of my job is talking to the actors. And so much of my job is like answering questions they have. And, oh, if they don't like a scene, like working it through with them and figuring out whether, you know, there's a way to clarify it or there's a way to like make them more excited about it or to express to them,
00:28:14
Jaclyn
the intent of the scene in a way that maybe they didn't get upon first reading, like whatever it is, that's a huge part of the job. And so to just have part of that job cut off where it's like, Oh, they can't be alone together. Like that's very damning.
00:28:28
Ryan
Yeah. And like, again, and I'm pretty sure that if I recall correctly, that's like the only thing she spoke out, like several of the other actors gave like much more detailed accounts and granted she was only on it for three years, but so was, cordi um, charisma carpenter, but she was also on angel. So that was a separate thing. But, um,
00:28:48
Ryan
Yeah, I still to this am, you know, I hope that Sarah Michelle Gellar gets the freedom to be able to talk freely about what her experience was like.
00:28:59
Ryan
um But I'm hoping so.
00:29:00
Jaclyn
she's going to get to with this reboot.
00:29:03
Ryan
I'm...
00:29:03
Jaclyn
That press, that's a press tour. I'm excited about is Sarah Michelle Gellar's press tour around the eventual reboot coming out.
00:29:07
Ryan
Oh my God.
00:29:12
Ryan
I totally forgot about that, Jacqueline.
00:29:12
Jaclyn
That's,
00:29:14
Ryan
Thank you.
00:29:15
Jaclyn
Yeah.
00:29:16
Ryan
Oh.
00:29:16
Jaclyn
I just can't imagine that won't be the thing.
00:29:17
Shauna (she/her)
And we're back. like
00:29:19
Ryan
so...
00:29:21
Jaclyn
Like if she if you're promoting a new version of Buffy, that's like a sequel series or whatever it is.
00:29:26
Ryan
Yeah.
00:29:27
Jaclyn
Like there's no way that the press tour is not going to be all questions or at least many questions about how is this different than last time?
00:29:31
Ryan
Yes. With a lot of nerves. Yes.
Discussion on 'The People's Joker'
00:29:37
Ryan
Yes. And i I think one of the things that I'm excited about obviously, like my...
00:29:45
Ryan
i like my blood pressure just went up like 30 fucking clicks or however it's measured. But, um you know, fans have so much more access and like the Buffyverse was always very kind of like out loud with the fact that like they checked the forums, they like read what the fans wrote and now to have such a greater connection, like she's going to have to say it one time and she's just going to have to say something clear enough that everyone knows that this conversation does not need to keep happening.
00:30:01
Jaclyn
yeah
00:30:16
Ryan
It only needs to talk about once and that's that. But whatever it is, i bet she'll be, bo she's, she's already started working on it because I'm certain people have already started asking.
00:30:28
Jaclyn
cool. Very cool.
00:30:29
Ryan
Okay. So let's jump into our media of the episode, the people's Joker. So, um, Shauna, you were the one that turned me onto this film. Jacqueline also shared, i don't remember if we were recording or not, that,
00:30:46
Ryan
you know, she's like in love with it as well. So what's, what are your all's connection or backstory to it?
00:30:53
Shauna (she/her)
Well, I had seen it originally that it was rumored to be coming out, but they were having a lot of issues with copyright and trademark and whether it was a fair use of likeness for parody.
00:31:08
Shauna (she/her)
And if you watch this movie, you'll be like, oh, ah no one's going to watch the movie and think, gosh, I think this is the real Joker, Harlequin, Batman, Penguin, like and Lorne Michaels.
00:31:10
Ryan
Yeah.
00:31:20
Shauna (she/her)
like No one's like, this is a very serious thing.
00:31:20
Ryan
Yes, exactly.
00:31:23
Ryan
Yes.
00:31:24
Shauna (she/her)
yeah Like, no one's going be in confused. And I'm, you know, it got like, you know, it was at like different film festivals and it was pulled suddenly. And i was very excited to see it.
00:31:32
Ryan
Yeah.
00:31:35
Shauna (she/her)
And then thankfully it aired at like a small art house theater near me. And adored it. It was so weird and so good.
00:31:40
Ryan
Where did you see it?
00:31:43
Shauna (she/her)
it was um the Case Western Reserve Theater that's there.
00:31:48
Ryan
Oh, I don't even know that they did movies.
00:31:50
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah, somewhere. like there was like some something right around there. I'd have to look it up, but yeah.
00:31:54
Ryan
Okay, got it. Yeah.
00:31:56
Jaclyn
Cool.
00:31:56
Ryan
Cool.
00:31:56
Jaclyn
I love this movie. I like, I also just heard the buzz about it. Vera and I are like friendly on the internet, but like I've never met in person.
00:32:06
Shauna (she/her)
and I was gonna say, I'm like, I feel like I'm like, this is like one of those, like, so Jacqueline's great for me being like a degree of separation from like, pretty much any famous trans person in the world. And I love that.
00:32:16
Shauna (she/her)
Like, I'm like or maybe two at most. And that's, I love that for me.
00:32:20
Jaclyn
Yeah, so I don't know. I've never met Vera in person, but we've DM'd and talked ah a decent amount.
00:32:23
Shauna (she/her)
Okay, okay.
00:32:27
Jaclyn
um
00:32:27
Ryan
Yeah.
00:32:28
Jaclyn
I really like was looking forward to this movie. um I actually missed it in theaters. It was showing at a ah theater near me, and I i didn't wasn't able to get there. I actually bought a ticket and then like was sick or something.
00:32:43
Jaclyn
Um, so I bought a, like, I bought it on VOD when it came out and I bought the Blu-ray just to like support. um cause there was that, well, whatever. There was a whole thing about like piracy around this movie, um, that I think Vera got unfairly, um,
00:32:56
Shauna (she/her)
I,
00:33:01
Jaclyn
I think people were being kind of unfair to her because she financed a lot of this movie herself and was in great debt ah because of this movie. And in legal you know jeopardy at times of like having this thing repossessed, it seemed.
00:33:16
Jaclyn
I don't know that from her. That's just like from the like the news reports about it.
00:33:20
Ryan
Commentary. Yeah.
00:33:21
Jaclyn
Um, and, um, people were like, well, we should be allowed to see it and we should but pirate it. And, and she was just like, I'm in great debt for this movie. Can you please support trans artists?
00:33:31
Ryan
Please don't.
00:33:33
Jaclyn
And, um, so I did, I wanted to, I've, I bought this movie three different times. If you include going a ticket to going to see it that I missed. Um, but it was, it's, it's incredible.
00:33:40
Ryan
Love that.
00:33:44
Jaclyn
It's just like such a, it's It's such a like punk rock, primal scream, kind of like, shouldn't work.
00:33:56
Jaclyn
It's like a miracle of a movie. like This movie should not work.
00:33:58
Ryan
Yeah.
00:34:00
Jaclyn
ah you know It's like very... um DIY aesthetic. It's, it's like, you know, randomly will be video game graphics for a scene.
00:34:11
Jaclyn
It'll randomly like, it's just one of those movies.
00:34:13
Shauna (she/her)
It art.
00:34:14
Jaclyn
That's like, it is bootstrapped. However is possible to get it done. And like, it's very self-aware about that and like makes really good jokes about that as it goes. I love this movie sense of humor about both itself.
00:34:25
Shauna (she/her)
is it is art
00:34:27
Ryan
It is.
00:34:27
Jaclyn
It's art.
00:34:28
Ryan
It really is.
00:34:28
Jaclyn
It reminds me a lot of watching early John Waters movies.
00:34:32
Ryan
Sure.
00:34:32
Jaclyn
Um, Like I just saw Multiple Maniacs, which is like a very early John Waters movie um at a ah local art house cinema this past weekend. And like this movie feels very of a piece, but actually like way more ambitious in a lot of ways.
00:34:48
Jaclyn
And I think I'm just, I was so excited to see it. And and when it first started, I was a little like, okay, this is, i don't know about what's this going to be. And then it just,
00:35:00
Jaclyn
truly makes me cry. I've watched it so many times since the election. um
00:35:06
Shauna (she/her)
It's so funny.
00:35:07
Ryan
It is really funny.
00:35:08
Jaclyn
i have such an allergy trans work sometimes, ah self-hating transphobia.
00:35:08
Shauna (she/her)
It's so funny and poignant. ah
00:35:13
Jaclyn
ah
00:35:14
Jaclyn
Like I just have such an allergy to like, and I've made some trans work that I'm sure other people have an allergy to towards like people talking about their transness in art.
00:35:14
Shauna (she/her)
o
00:35:21
Ryan
An allergy. I love that.
00:35:24
Jaclyn
And this movie
00:35:25
Shauna (she/her)
With a great mirror scene, like doing her makeup, like, like with dramatic slowness over the lipstick.
00:35:28
Jaclyn
yeah i yeah but this i know and yet this movie like everything that i usually don't like about trans art made by trans people and by the way for the record i love trans art made by trans people but it's just like that thing when it's your story sometimes it sometimes feels like oh this is like the 101 stuff like
00:35:33
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah.
00:35:45
Ryan
Yes. Yes.
00:35:52
Ryan
Yeah.
00:35:53
Shauna (she/her)
We're not the audience.
00:35:54
Jaclyn
We're not the audience.
00:35:55
Ryan
Yes.
00:35:55
Jaclyn
But this movie, I feel is I am so the audience for this movie.
00:36:00
Ryan
Yes.
00:36:01
Jaclyn
And it it like just feels like Vera is like speaking my soul into existence. And I just, it feels like a magic trick. I love this movie so much. A hundred estrogen pills up.
00:36:13
Jaclyn
um You know, like, yeah, truly
00:36:15
Shauna (she/her)
Maybe a whole batch swan dove into.
00:36:15
Ryan
So.
00:36:17
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah.
00:36:17
Ryan
One dive into it.
00:36:18
Shauna (she/her)
yeah
00:36:19
Ryan
So I put it in like, if you look at the comments, Shauna, if you want to like walk us through those, because it's kind of, you know, plot driven.
00:36:24
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah.
00:36:28
Ryan
And it'll give us time to point out maybe like particular things that we liked. First and foremost being um that the movie is dedicated to to her mom and Joel Schumacher.
00:36:42
Ryan
And ah for those that don't know, Joel Schumacher is the director of the campiest Batman movies, which I just thought was so... I think I said before, like...
00:36:54
Ryan
This, like, I'm sold right away. I saw a Joel Schumacher Out Loud reference, and I was like, cool, I'm into it.
00:37:01
Jaclyn
I mean, it's textual in the movie, even like we see a recreation of that version of Batman with um Nicole Kidman's infamous character, Chase Meridian, I believe is the real is the character.
00:37:07
Ryan
Yes, yes.
00:37:15
Jaclyn
I think they they give her a different name. I think Vera gives her a different name in the in the movie because of copyright stuff. But in the movie, I've always loved that her character name is Chase Meridian.
00:37:26
Jaclyn
i But the nipple the nipple sex scene is iconic.
00:37:27
Ryan
and
00:37:30
Ryan
And they also, um there is a specific line when um Poison Ivy, the Poison Ivy character is um describing what happened. and She says something about, she she uses the exact words of Batman and Robin. She says, filled my lips with venom.
00:37:49
Ryan
And i was like, what a weird attention to detail that only the girls will get?
00:37:50
Jaclyn
yes Oh.
00:37:56
Ryan
Because as I was like, there's no way they're about to. And i like said it along with her, like at the same exact time. I was like, only that only the girls remember these lines. As I told Lady Freeze when I pulled her plug, this is a one woman show.
00:38:10
Ryan
All right, get us started, John.
00:38:12
Jaclyn
It's so good.
00:38:14
Shauna (she/her)
Oh, good. Okay, okay, okay. So, the protagonist who was originally, and I love, and this is something that you did as well, I love well like bleep yeah um i love the bleeping of the dead name.
00:38:22
Ryan
Feel free to self edit by the way. Me
00:38:27
Shauna (she/her)
i think that's a really great touch, and that ah one that I'm a big fan of, because it's not important.
00:38:28
Ryan
too. Yes.
00:38:34
Shauna (she/her)
and like But yet, like you still need to have it um story-wise.
00:38:34
Ryan
yes
00:38:37
Jaclyn
something that was also done really wonderfully in a, ah a little show called Queer as Folk.
00:38:43
Shauna (she/her)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:38:43
Jaclyn
And also had, had, I will say has the same powerful moment that I think is played very well here of the first moment you don't hear the name bleeped.
00:38:44
Shauna (she/her)
Mm-hmm.
00:38:53
Jaclyn
So I, shouts to Vera Drew.
00:38:53
Ryan
Yes.
00:38:55
Shauna (she/her)
o
00:38:56
Jaclyn
i think great minds think alike.
00:38:59
Shauna (she/her)
And so, growing up, ah ah feeling out of place in a conservative home with an overrearing mother. And so, she finds solace in comedy while struggling with her gender identity. And I mean, really, i think that's why there's so many, like, funny trans women. Because there's, like, a lot... Like, you know, like, you really have to learn to, like, laugh at yourself and everything in life at points. Because it's such a... so Like, it's all, like, surreal at times.
00:39:21
Shauna (she/her)
Like...
00:39:22
Ryan
Or I can understand.
00:39:22
Shauna (she/her)
And so, I just really appreciated that. And so...
00:39:24
Ryan
Yeah.
00:39:26
Shauna (she/her)
She then escapes to Gotham City, hoping to become a comedian in a world where comedy is tightly controlled by the of corporate monopoly run by UCB, the United Clown Bureau.
00:39:33
Ryan
Okay.
00:39:35
Jaclyn
Dead.
00:39:35
Ryan
Dead.
00:39:36
Jaclyn
Dead.
00:39:36
Ryan
The first time, and like, they didn't even have to say UCB, like, when they said whatever the fake name was, I was like, she's swinging at UCB.
00:39:47
Ryan
Like, damn, what an indictment.
00:39:48
Shauna (she/her)
Mm-hmm.
00:39:50
Jaclyn
It's so spot on, too. I mean, UCB satire is the most well-earned satire, I think, in some ways.
00:39:57
Ryan
Mm-hmm.
00:39:58
Jaclyn
I mean, that's not true, not in the world. But it's just, I think of this and I think of Bojack Horseman, which both have great UCB.
00:39:58
Shauna (she/her)
Mm.
00:40:04
Shauna (she/her)
o
00:40:05
Jaclyn
You know, in Bojack Horseman, it's like a Scientology um situation. And here, it's just... so accurate. And so the scene at UCB where pre-transition, asks her name.
00:40:21
Jaclyn
It asks one other thing I forget, but then it like measures her dong and it's like, Oh, you're white man. You're good to go. You get a career in comedy.
00:40:32
Jaclyn
And it's like, yep, that is how it feels.
00:40:33
Ryan
Yeah. yeah
00:40:36
Ryan
There was a... ah I don't remember what the other part was, but the next note that I have is about the relationship with her mom. And, like, she says, do you know how crying makes your mother feel?
00:40:49
Ryan
When I, like, threw myself onto the ground, i was like, but man!
00:40:50
Shauna (she/her)
Oh
00:40:56
Ryan
Vera... if If somehow by way of internet communication you hear about and choose to listen to this podcast, like what a fucking genius you are. Because those those scenes with her mother were quite tough in how like real and grounded they felt.
00:41:19
Ryan
Like you have a mentally ill mother too. Like got it. Okay. Got it.
00:41:23
Shauna (she/her)
o
00:41:24
Jaclyn
it it's so incredible. And I mean, I'm i'm sorry, Shauna, you're trying so hard to just get through the plot and I'm like jumping around.
00:41:30
Shauna (she/her)
No, no, but this is what we do.
00:41:32
Ryan
Yeah, this is how we do it.
00:41:32
Shauna (she/her)
Like, this is part of, like, it's the jumping off point for these because it'll make us think of it.
00:41:32
Jaclyn
But like,
00:41:37
Jaclyn
of the things about vera of Vera's work here is like also the, so you know Vera's character um becomes, you know in this world, there are joke man that you're either a joke man or you're a Harlequin.
00:41:53
Jaclyn
And so like the girls are Harlequins and they don't get to be funny, they just get to be sexy. And the boys are joke men and she's becoming Joker the Harlequin. That's like how she what she transitions into.
00:42:05
Jaclyn
And part of that process and that coming alive and discovering oneself and all of that, or accepting oneself she knows from a young age, is in dating Mr. j who is a version of Jared Leto's Joker, um who is a trans...
00:42:22
Ryan
Which I feel like this is more spot on to Joker than fucking Jared Leto's.
00:42:27
Shauna (she/her)
Yes.
00:42:27
Ryan
Like, much better done this this guy.
00:42:27
Jaclyn
Yeah, a true. True. But the, the um but is done, is played by a trans man. and like, one of the things that I responded strongly Deeply to in this movie is the idea of like, you really see the cycles of abuse that I think so many of us in the queer community deal with and don't know how to talk about, which is like the abusive mother, you know, in this sort of mentally ill gaslighting, you make me sad, you're crying hurts me like that thing.
00:42:56
Ryan
Yeah.
00:43:00
Jaclyn
But then the T on T, the queer on queer abuse is like so fucking real.
00:43:04
Ryan
Yeah.
00:43:07
Ryan
yeah
00:43:10
Jaclyn
And the way that that abuse is like kind of set up by her relationship with her mother and that like it almost she's primed for a narcissistic abuser.
00:43:21
Jaclyn
And it's such a... Just such a powerful and like profound... This movie makes me cry 600 places. is in the scene... one of them is in the seen It's ah all around the time where, where Vera's character is explaining the signs that you're dating a narcissist signs of narcissistic abuse.
00:43:44
Jaclyn
um And she's, I always forget the exact line, but she says something about like, you were the first person that saw me and I hate that. I have to give you that like, and that feels like so in conversation with the way her mother doesn't see her and the way that those, abuse the abuse, these two characters are,
00:44:05
Jaclyn
kind of rain on her feels like two sides of the same coin.
Exploration of Film Themes & Identity
00:44:10
Jaclyn
It's just, this movie is so fucking good.
00:44:11
Ryan
It's beautiful.
00:44:13
Jaclyn
It's so fucking good.
00:44:13
Ryan
Yeah.
00:44:15
Jaclyn
I just am, I am in awe of how brilliant she is.
00:44:19
Ryan
So... the relationship with Mr. J. um There were a couple of moments that um really fucked me up in that same regard.
00:44:35
Ryan
um You know tiny backstory. So I'm transracially adopted. but My whole family is white. I had the
00:44:47
Ryan
I received a lot of anti-Black messaging from the people that were supposed to be the closest to me. And it did a lot of damage to my ability to develop as a human being. And so i don't, ah identify as non-binary and I recognize that that is different than the experience of trans people in a lot of ways. But that idea of literally like having this like spark inside of you that is just continuously like deadened and, and harmed is relatable in a lot of ways across that. And also fuck Rachel Dolezal for you trying to use transracial as a real thing while I'm sitting here talking about like the trauma of like actual,
00:45:35
Ryan
transracial adoption but one of the things that I don't remember what Mr. J's prompting line was but uh Vera's character said I had no idea i wasn't even sure I existed and like I just wrote that line out of context I didn't put anything else around it and so it took me a second to remember and then it like when it clicked back in what it was talking about it like hit me again of like I have in the last few years really started to understand that my experience of like not knowing what I want to be when I grow up with giant air quotes around it was not the same as what everyone else's experience was in that I just never pictured myself as an adult.
00:46:21
Ryan
I just had no, I like, I had no frame of reference. Like, When I got married, I promise you, I had never thought about my wedding other than the idea of dancing with another man.
00:46:35
Ryan
Like everything else around it did not, didn didn't, you know, exist. And so i that there's a lot of really fucking poignant lines about that trauma, that she goes through with her mother and again, just absolute fucking kudos, um, in general.
00:46:59
Ryan
Um, however, one of the things to pivot into more of the humor of the movie, cause it is also a very fucking funny movie. Um, so they kept talking about comedy legends. And then of course, because most of those comedy legends are fucking disgusting humans, they would have to like add in like, you know, like, um,
00:47:21
Ryan
I don't know if they, I don't remember if they actually did say Bill Cosby, but like, you know, but Bill Cosby, but before any of the drama or like, you know, before we knew any of the bad things that he did, like they use that as kind of like a a recurring punchline every single time I was like, Ooh, Oh, like, okay, good.
00:47:36
Ryan
Like, well, yeah.
00:47:37
Jaclyn
It's so funny.
00:47:38
Shauna (she/her)
No, no, no, of course before. Yeah, like...
00:47:40
Jaclyn
Yes, of course, of course, of course.
00:47:40
Ryan
Yeah. And then like we all agree. Obviously that's what we're talking about. Yeah, exactly.
00:47:43
Jaclyn
Yeah. Yeah, Bill Cosby, Woody Allen, Louis C.K., I think maybe another, but yeah, it's always...
00:47:49
Ryan
Yes.
00:47:49
Jaclyn
It's always before the, I think it's before the before the unfortunate. and um And then it's like, oh yes, of course, of course, of course.
00:47:59
Ryan
Of course, course, of course, of
00:48:01
Jaclyn
It's so funny. God, this movie is sad. I feel like Chris Farley, on ah not to cite one of the objects of satire of this movie, SNL, which by the way, there is a brutal, there are a couple brutal Colin Jost burns ah in this movie.
00:48:12
Ryan
course. Yes.
00:48:20
Jaclyn
um
00:48:20
Ryan
I do kind of remember, but I don't remember what they are.
00:48:23
Jaclyn
There's one where I believe... yeah there's at least one where he's directly compared to a Nazi. um And that Michael Che is also directly compared to a a Nazi.
00:48:35
Ryan
I do kind of remember them coming for Michael J too.
00:48:38
Jaclyn
But um ah I just feel like I'm Chris Farley and the Chris Farley show in this, where it's just like everything about this movie, I just love.
00:48:45
Ryan
Yeah, it's really cool.
00:48:45
Jaclyn
um But it's just so, it's so, earnest And I think like from ah one of the things I'm really interested about in this movie is the way that it uses adaptation and the way that it uses
00:48:52
Ryan
hmm.
00:49:00
Jaclyn
It's like why this movie is actually a great use of a great example of fair use, which I know is like part of, you know, it's literally the disclaimer at the beginning of the movie. um
00:49:08
Ryan
Rare.
00:49:09
Jaclyn
But it's such a great use of adaptation to recontextualize and to like make meaning out of a trans experience for, I think, a pretty wide audience, even though i think as a result, it speaks almost more deeply because it's asking you to like put...
00:49:28
Jaclyn
Transness in these archetypes, these heroic archetypes or villainous in this case, archetypes that I think is not an accident to either. The idea that transness is only seen through like a villainous lens in this is like...
00:49:43
Jaclyn
just like that fact alone. Like if I made a movie where I just directly talked about the trans experience and directly did all of the things. And I made a show where we directly talked about the trans experience in some ways, but even that was about like, okay, how do I bury this in like the hyper specifics of my, my youth?
00:50:01
Jaclyn
How do I bury this in like, so it doesn't feel like it's universal experience. It feels like I'm talking about a very specific experience for this to take in a lot of ways, like a very like,
00:50:12
Jaclyn
broad experience of trans, a broad version of the trans experience that I know is, I think, true to Vera's experience in a lot of ways, as it's true to many of ours. But like, by pairing that sort of like almost universal trans kind of experience in some ways with this language that we all share, these characters that we all know and putting those in conversation with one another, suddenly these connections occur in the material that wouldn't otherwise be there.
00:50:42
Jaclyn
For instance, the villainous, the idea that like transness is experienced through a villainous nature, the idea that like, um or like that you are cast as the villain in society.
00:50:48
Ryan
Yeah,
00:50:52
Ryan
yeah it's a deviance in general.
00:50:53
Jaclyn
The, you Yeah, it's deviance. It's and also by like doing it, it just as a result, this movie is like so hard on its sleeve, directly earnest in a way that like, I actually feel like it's very hard for a movie to do without At least in my experience, in my case, feeling this is maybe my own bullshit that I need to work through, where I sometimes will get a little eye-rolly about stuff.
00:51:18
Jaclyn
And I don't eye-roll about this because it's like, oh, it's like so earnest. It like shoots the moon. It's like so earnest, but then like put through these like archetypal characters in this way that it takes on new meaning.
00:51:31
Jaclyn
And it contextualizes transness in part of an American story that we tell ourselves. These are our myths.
00:51:37
Jaclyn
DC comic books, all these stuff are our mythology.
00:51:37
Ryan
Yeah.
00:51:39
Ryan
Yes.
00:51:41
Jaclyn
And Vera has that speech. I'm just giving a speech now, I guess. I'm sorry.
00:51:44
Ryan
yeah And it's very compelling.
00:51:44
Jaclyn
like But Vera has that monologue where she talks about life isn't a comic book, but like these, it should be. And it's like, I think part of what that's about is like, these are,
00:51:55
Jaclyn
Like, these are as much our archetypal stories that we tell ourselves and tell, like, like Joan Didion's, like, we tell ourselves stories in order to live. Like, society tells itself stories in order to, like, propagate and continue itself.
00:52:10
Jaclyn
And, like, superheroes are the modern version of that oral tradition. And before that, it was, like, gods and, you know, the fucking, like, Greek pantheon.
00:52:18
Ryan
Right.
00:52:21
Jaclyn
And, you know, between those times, it was...
00:52:21
Ryan
Right.
00:52:25
Jaclyn
the Western hero or the, you know, all these like genre things by putting it in this context, it makes meaning of these things. And I just like, I don't know.
00:52:35
Jaclyn
it just blew it. Like it bowls me over every time I like, well, why, if you are listening to this and you have not watched the movie, you have to go see this movie.
00:52:40
Ryan
I think the.
00:52:44
Ryan
Very, very hard to agree. I think one of the things that, you know, you also you kind of touched on it, like, in its earnestness, it's also, or like, in the um the meaning making of it, there are some parts that are just, like, bashing you over the head, like, saying, you know, these are signs of a narcissist, which is a classic...
00:53:06
Ryan
ah part of the relationship between Joker and Harley, like that the the original DC characters. He manipulates her. However, in the ways that he manipulates her, which obviously there's a lot of um ah commentary about that ah for, you know, the... the the controller in a relationship, even if we don't want to say the narcissist, you know, the one that maybe holds a little bit more positional power.
00:53:31
Ryan
Um, she finds herself and similarly, like Mr. J he's a monster. Like it's inexcusable, but also, you know, you mentioned it earlier, like you were the first person that really fucking saw me.
00:53:45
Ryan
You saw you in me. And that was a me that I never even imagined. And holy shit. It's just like, if you can't pick out.
00:53:53
Shauna (she/her)
That is Harley and Joker.
00:53:55
Ryan
Exactly.
00:53:55
Shauna (she/her)
like
00:53:56
Ryan
Exactly. Because, and again, to to even, you know, uh, double down on like how easy it is to to buy into these things when we want to, like, if you want to, you can see yourself in this movie, regardless of your gender identity or not. Like if you are trans,
00:54:14
Ryan
non-binary, cis, whatever your gender identity is, like, you can see yourself in this movie because we always see ourselves in other media such that we shipped um Joker and Poison, or i'm sorry, harlequin Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy into existence.
00:54:32
Ryan
Like, that was just queer, perhaps headcanon, but like it was, you know, and they definitely picked up on it and then added more subtext and now they're just fully fucking gay. And you know what?
00:54:44
Ryan
That's the power of homosexual thinking. And I didn't even remember that they are on your shirt. And that feels even more telling ah for just how connected we psychically connected we are.
00:54:52
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah.
00:54:57
Ryan
OK, so um let's keep the plot going. But there was one thing I did want to ask. In like all of these summaries, it talks about her struggling with her gender identity and like, you know, outside of the obvious like questions, I never really viewed it as struggling. I just saw it as a, ah ah that's kind of what a self discovery process is. Like, what what what did you all, is do you feel like that's a fair word?
00:55:29
Shauna (she/her)
Well, I mean, I definitely like i feel like especially with like the Smilax gas and like the like concealed don't feel.
00:55:33
Ryan
Mm-hmm.
00:55:34
Shauna (she/her)
It's why like when you know I was first like coming out, like I always thought of like Elsa and like when concealed don't feel. like That felt very akin to transness and how we were often taught, if not overly,
00:55:48
Shauna (she/her)
like subconsciously to treat our senses of selves that we it's better to hide it away it's better to not show it it's gonna make our moms cry so let's just keep it away and I think that is absolutely something that I felt very like that struggle where like when you know even if you whether you know whether you don't know whether you're trying to figure out it really prevents that dialogue even from happening before it even happens
00:56:14
Jaclyn
Yeah, and I think that I would say it's a struggle. I mean, in real life, it was definitely a struggle for me. ah
00:56:20
Ryan
Right,
00:56:21
Jaclyn
But I think Shauna is so spot on with like, the struggle is less about, I mean, some of it's self-discovery. Yeah, some of it's a process of self-discovery. um But like one, that process is like very struggle filled.
00:56:35
Jaclyn
You know, as a child asking your mom, ah am I born in the wrong body? And your mom being offended and like realizing, oh, no, I'm not allowed to ask certain questions. And like the struggle with that.
00:56:46
Ryan
right yeah
00:56:47
Jaclyn
and even But then it's like the struggle against society as you start to realize you are seen as villainous in these ways and you are, you know, um, yeah, I don't know.
00:56:59
Jaclyn
I think struggle, it's funny cause it's not a traditional struggle. It's not like a, it's not like a, I'm torn between these two things.
00:57:03
Ryan
Yeah.
00:57:05
Shauna (she/her)
but it's But it's not fitting the mold.
00:57:06
Jaclyn
It's more, um,
00:57:08
Shauna (she/her)
Seeing the mold in front of you, knowing you're supposed to step in, knowing, oh my gosh, look at me. i get to be a comedian. This should make me happy. And like, but it doesn't.
00:57:15
Ryan
Yes.
00:57:17
Shauna (she/her)
there is That is where that struggle comes in.
00:57:17
Ryan
Yes.
00:57:20
Shauna (she/her)
When you see that that disconnect, that every even when everything's going right, it still feels wrong.
00:57:26
Ryan
And it's, i I think what you both sort of like illuminated for me in talking about, I'm an external processor.
00:57:26
Jaclyn
Yeah. it
00:57:32
Ryan
Sometimes I just have to talk about stuff because when, yeah, exactly.
00:57:34
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah.
00:57:34
Jaclyn
No, that's great.
00:57:35
Shauna (she/her)
Podcasts are great for that.
00:57:38
Ryan
um Hearing struggle, I automatically think of um just how overused that word is when it comes to the queer and trans experience. Like it's not all a struggle to figure out who you are. it is often,
00:57:56
Ryan
the external pressures that make it a struggle. Like in an ideal world, the process of understanding that you are trans or the process of understanding your racial identity amidst no one with your shared racial identity, like it would be a lot smoother, but that's not what the fucking world is.
00:57:59
Jaclyn
Yes.
00:58:15
Ryan
And like, that's what the struggle is. And so i think the, the use of it and how I usually internalize it as being kind of eye rolly, like, Oh, a cis straight person wrote this line.
00:58:27
Ryan
Like read, like, I feel like any time a story is centered around identity development, struggle is always used. And it's like, I just don't know that I always see the struggle, but i I am absolutely hearing it in, you know, the individual relationships of it all.
Cultural Impact & Storytelling
00:58:43
Ryan
And the, you know, the,
00:58:44
Jaclyn
you
00:58:46
Ryan
cognitive dissonance of getting all the things you want and not feeling happy. i hear that for sure.
00:58:52
Jaclyn
I mean, that's, I think what you've hit the nail on the head where it's like, there is a struggle often in the discovery. There's a struggle in figuring it out. And that struggle often comes with the state because of the stakes that society puts on you.
00:59:07
Jaclyn
Like, Oh, it's not just, I can try out being a girl for a little bit. It's if I do this, I lose a bunch of stuff.
00:59:12
Ryan
right
00:59:14
Jaclyn
I'm like perceived differently. I like this, this, Figuring this out comes at cost. But even when there's not a struggle in like the answer to who am i there's a struggle.
00:59:30
Jaclyn
Once you see, like, it's kind of like figuring out who you are is finding the mountain, becoming who you are is climbing it.
00:59:36
Ryan
Yep.
00:59:39
Jaclyn
And this movie to me feels like a, strip feels like the struggle is about climbing the mountain.
00:59:39
Ryan
Bitch, if you don't say that,
00:59:45
Jaclyn
um And that's, yeah.
00:59:47
Ryan
I need to pause for one moment just on that sentiment because yeah, that's, that's it, isn't it? Like, because again, in a world without the external factors, like that is a smooth uphill climb.
01:00:07
Ryan
But when you think about all of the ways that Like, and even just in the setbacks that happen, like you can move stepwise forward and encounter, you know, obstacles that slow you down.
01:00:21
Ryan
And I don't like know that I meant to keep going with the rock climbing thing, but I kind of feel like committed to it now.
01:00:25
Jaclyn
You can though. Look, it works for Celeste.
01:00:26
Ryan
um
01:00:29
Ryan
and Like to be able to like recognize that there's also like missteps and sometimes you fuck up in that. And like, it actually sets you back a little bit more because, know,
01:00:40
Ryan
You know, fuck, I developed this whole sense of self, but I developed it with a narcissist. So now I have to refigure that shit out because that's a whole new thing. And like, oh, to be clear, that wasn't me being like tongue in cheek.
01:00:53
Ryan
My ex-husband is a delightful human being, not a narcissist.
01:00:57
Jaclyn
No, but that's...
01:00:58
Ryan
My mother, though, narcissistic.
01:00:58
Jaclyn
you yeah but You're right, though. Because even in this movie, right? like Part of Mr. J's backstory in this movie, which is, again, such a great piece of adaptation of Batman, is the idea that Mr. J was Carrie Kelly, who was, in the comics, is like the girl Robin.
01:00:58
Shauna (she/her)
Okay.
01:01:20
Ryan
Yeah, the red headed Robin.
01:01:20
Jaclyn
um And the red-headed Robin, who was... like in this version of the story groomed basically by Bruce Wayne and transitioned and part of the narcissism and even calling a narcissism. I mean, they're certainly behaving narcissistically, but,
01:01:41
Jaclyn
um part of what's happening is people are just doing their trauma to other people.
01:01:46
Ryan
Yes.
01:01:46
Jaclyn
And like, so you're seeing, you're taking real things from the comics, recontextualizing them as like, Oh, that is kind of creepy. Like in the same way that Joker and Harley Quinn have always had this narcissistic abuse built into their comic dynamic.
01:02:03
Jaclyn
There's always been the creepy joke or the, there's always been the fun, silly kind of jokes about the inherent creepiness of, that is Batman taking on all these teenage wards.
01:02:13
Jaclyn
And like um the way this, yeah, the way this turns it into, the way this turns it in and recontextualize it as, you know, ah grooming and abuse that then we see the effects of on that person's next relationship.
01:02:13
Ryan
Yes.
01:02:15
Shauna (she/her)
Here's your underwear to go out in public with.
01:02:17
Ryan
Oh my god!
01:02:19
Shauna (she/her)
Like...
01:02:31
Jaclyn
To me, what the magic trick of that is, is it helped like, For me as a queer and a trans person who's like had abuse in her life, like it makes me feel seen.
01:02:44
Jaclyn
It makes me feel like it gives me language.
01:02:44
Ryan
Yeah.
01:02:47
Jaclyn
It gives me new language for ways to discuss something that happened to me. But I think what's great is for someone that hasn't had that experience or who isn't queer and isn't trans It actually like takes those jokes that we've been making in society forever.
01:03:00
Jaclyn
It actually puts teeth in them and gives them something to think about around their trans and queer people in their lives in this new way where it's like, oh shit, like I maybe don't know what that is.
01:03:04
Shauna (she/her)
Mm-hmm.
01:03:15
Jaclyn
But when I think about it as Carrie and Bruce Wayne, that actually like gives me sort of As dumb as this sounds, it gives me context for an experience that I don't otherwise have.
01:03:26
Jaclyn
And that is like also a magic trick. This movie is like, what this movie is doing through adaptation is fucking brilliant. And like works on a level that I think is like people like,
01:03:27
Ryan
Yeah.
01:03:40
Jaclyn
like um underestimate this movie based on its DIY aesthetics at their peril, because what is going on is actually so much deeper and so much more nuanced than I think a lot of people might think upon first glance at, Oh, it's a movie about transness where she becomes Joker, the Harlequin.
01:03:49
Ryan
Earl.
01:04:02
Jaclyn
And like, that's how it works. Okay, cool. Like,
01:04:05
Ryan
Yeah, instead of diving into whatever white shit turns her white in, you know, her origin story, she dives into a bucket of estrogen.
01:04:14
Jaclyn
the best.
01:04:15
Ryan
Stunning. You love to see it.
01:04:16
Jaclyn
Yeah.
01:04:17
Ryan
Her skin was so fucking silky smooth when she got out that bitch. You know she was just like a fucking seals.
01:04:22
Jaclyn
Yeah, and the G's were tidying.
01:04:22
Shauna (she/her)
And it's gonna be.
01:04:27
Ryan
I said seals in terms of, like, smooth skin, but... um
01:04:31
Shauna (she/her)
but she looks kissed by a rose, so
01:04:33
Ryan
see Get the fuck out, Shauna. Boo! Do not applaud her! Boo! I...
01:04:44
Ryan
Fuck.
01:04:46
Shauna (she/her)
true
01:04:46
Ryan
Jesus Christ. Okay, so before we get to like the the conclusion of the movie, there were just a couple of other things um that I noted earlier.
01:04:47
Shauna (she/her)
i
01:04:52
Shauna (she/her)
Mm-hmm.
01:04:58
Ryan
ah that I wanted to talk about. At one point I did just write I'm Obsessed. like i just had I fully realized at a certain point that I was like in love with this movie. um There was a RuPaul fracking joke. I don't remember what it was, but we love a fracking joke.
01:05:13
Jaclyn
So just like to, catch to catch us up to like what's happening in the plot is that she hacks Batman's drones and basically gives a message because Batman is going to host Batman's running for office and Batman's going to host, or is Batman running for office?
01:05:15
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah. Yeah. Thanks.
01:05:29
Jaclyn
Maybe not. Maybe Lex Luthor's running for office, but anyway, Batman's going to host UCB live, which is a stand in for SNL.
01:05:30
Shauna (she/her)
thanks
01:05:36
Jaclyn
And, and
01:05:37
Ryan
I
01:05:38
Jaclyn
ah so the Joker, Joker, the Harlequin hacks, Batman's drones that go around the city, policing the city. And instead basically challenges, Lauren Michaels, who is played by Maria Bamford, um, which is incredible.
01:05:53
Ryan
ah screamed when I saw that.
01:05:56
Jaclyn
Um, And challenges Lorne Michaels to instead have her host, because that would be a more defiant thing to do. And so that leads to the Climactic Rebellion is sort of the buildup to her hosting UCB Live.
01:06:10
Ryan
Yes. And I think that was like a um an obvious extra kick to the ribs for when SNL had Trump posts, like, because I don't remember what the can't remember the the candidacy thing of but.
01:06:24
Ryan
Batman had essentially, like, everyone kind of knew at that point that Batman was an asshole. And, like, he did not need to have a platform as big as UCB Live.
01:06:34
Ryan
And that's obviously a very similarly shared sentiment to when they put that fucking idiot up on SNL's stage. Like, um I lost a lot of respect for a show that I have loved since I was a child.
01:06:50
Ryan
um But anyways, yeah, key let's we can keep it...
01:06:50
Jaclyn
Yeah. Lots of good SNL jokes in this movie too. I particularly like the part where Lauren Michaels says, ah we have a very talented cast and incredible writers.
01:06:54
Ryan
Very.
01:07:00
Jaclyn
It's sort of surprising that the show is just kind of uneven. um
01:07:04
Jaclyn
So she she gets brought into UCB Live where she will host an episode but also be a part of the cast going forward.
01:07:11
Jaclyn
But first, the the new and the new and not new and improved, I think, new and diverse. is Yeah, I think new and diverse cast.
01:07:11
Ryan
The diverse cast.
01:07:16
Ryan
Yes.
01:07:18
Jaclyn
But she first has to go through training with Ra's Agul, which I think is a Ra's Agul. I'm trying to remember what the non-Ra's Agul phrasing Ra's Agul
01:07:25
Ryan
Yeah.
01:07:29
Shauna (she/her)
What's Raish? Yeah, Raish, believe, is yeah race i believe is the
01:07:34
Jaclyn
is the like avoiding the lawyers version of it.
01:07:34
Shauna (she/her)
yeah
01:07:37
Ryan
Right.
01:07:37
Jaclyn
um But um so she goes through the training and then sort of upon trainings completion, where she learns about the prophecy of the people's Joker who will rise and sort of defy all these things.
01:07:49
Jaclyn
um She learns that she's hosting the show, but can't do it in drag um quote unquote, even though she points out it's not drag, it's just her clothes. ah ah But yeah,
01:07:58
Ryan
right
01:08:00
Jaclyn
she can't do it in drag because Lauren Michaels wants to get people, um, used to her situation. uh, right. Juggle's like, this is just the, man I'm just the messenger. You don't like, I'm not saying I agree with this.
01:08:12
Jaclyn
And so she decides to defy all of this and instead, uh, you know, embrace her revolutionary place as this, uh, you know, comedian, um,
01:08:26
Jaclyn
And she's also not allowed to talk about Batman. And so instead she goes on, you know, in her full situation in her, you know, beautiful, she looks also Vera just looks so hot, uh, like so hot.
01:08:39
Shauna (she/her)
Well
01:08:40
Ryan
Yeah.
01:08:41
Jaclyn
I just want it, want it to be said, um, um, So she goes on and does her running bit of the saddest story I've ever heard or the saddest day of my life.
01:08:50
Ryan
Yeah.
01:08:52
Jaclyn
um Only it's about Batman being basically like a groomer. And yeah. yeah And through that, I don't know. why What would you say happens at the end of this movie?
01:09:04
Ryan
Her mom shows up and tries to
01:09:04
Shauna (she/her)
well
01:09:07
Ryan
ah Oh, yeah, the the end of it. The film ends with a mix of triumph and uncertainty as she claims her space in a world on her own terms, knowing for the battle for creative and personal freedom is ongoing.
01:09:20
Ryan
Thanks, ChatGPT.
01:09:21
Jaclyn
But she goes to like another dimension.
01:09:22
Shauna (she/her)
but Mr. Mix-a-pickstilic.
01:09:24
Jaclyn
Yes.
01:09:25
Ryan
Yes!
01:09:25
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah, because they're in the fifth dimension.
01:09:25
Ryan
Oh, my God!
01:09:27
Jaclyn
she Yes.
01:09:27
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah.
01:09:29
Ryan
Mix Mixelplix.
01:09:29
Jaclyn
Thank you, Shana.
01:09:31
Ryan
Mix Mixelplix.
01:09:32
Shauna (she/her)
Mix-a-pickstilic. I can never say it, and I just always, like, mix-a-pickstilic. Yeah, no clue. It's that guy.
01:09:40
Jaclyn
Yeah.
01:09:40
Shauna (she/her)
The little little guy from Superman.
01:09:43
Ryan
Yeah.
01:09:43
Jaclyn
Yeah. And she gets a chance basically to be reborn as something else, which is, I think, one of the moments that makes me cry every time is this like very sincere song.
01:09:52
Shauna (she/her)
Hmm. Hmm.
01:09:55
Jaclyn
And the fact that she doesn't want to be someone else. She wants to be this person. She wants to be the person that she's but become and that she made herself into. And I,
01:10:07
Jaclyn
It's something that like makes me cry just thinking of the idea of, you know, she's like, I could be sis. I could come back as, you know, something different. And so it's like, no, I like really like the Joker that I am. I really like the person that I am. And it's something that like, to me just is like, I mean, whatever. It's like a queer, it's like such a queer, like, it just feels like a, like a real like rallying cry and like a real like defiant, like,
01:10:34
Jaclyn
Like, I mean, it's it's not to be a musical theater faggot here, but it's La Cage a Fall. Like, I am what I am. Like, and that it's just like such a triumphant moment.
01:10:44
Jaclyn
And I love it so much. And it makes me cry. And yeah.
01:10:47
Ryan
it's very that um sentiment that I think that many of us share that I've mostly just seen as like a a meme or something. But like given the chance, I would be born queer and queer every time.
01:11:03
Ryan
i I would never want to be anything other than I am, which again is essentially, you know, the same message because i it took me this long to love this person. Why would I want to do anything else.
01:11:17
Ryan
And there were a couple of lines, um, that I wrote down. so her mom comes to see her, uh, do the, the show.
01:11:29
Ryan
And it obviously, you know, it goes kind of kerfooey and her mother is like mortified and, ah she has at this point already broken up with Mr. J. So she breaks up with Mr. J. One of the other important parts of the the end of the movie.
01:11:46
Ryan
And they have a really sort of genuine conversation about how they got to, not got to where they are, but like the line that she says, um ah you, Oh, I think, I don't know which one said, who said it to who, but um you can't blame yourself for repeating the only cycle you ever knew.
01:11:57
Jaclyn
Thank you.
01:12:06
Ryan
We all want family. Like, Yeah, you you chose to be with someone who was not the right person for you, but at the end of the day, that's just, you have to forgive yourself for just trying to recreate what you thought was you were supposed to recreate to nature.
01:12:22
Jaclyn
And which is so devastating. And I love that that exists in a movie that also has a joke about it's a queer coming of age story. Of course, it's about Chosen family, which I think is so funny, like such a good meta joke.
01:12:31
Ryan
Yes. hope did yeah
01:12:35
Jaclyn
um This movie just like contains multitudes of deep sincerity and then just like deep taking the piss out of all of it.
01:12:39
Ryan
Yes.
01:12:43
Jaclyn
And I love both parts of it.
01:12:44
Ryan
Yes.
01:12:45
Shauna (she/her)
it it gets it It gets us. And I think it really, like, you couldn't write it without that lived experience because it just, there wouldn't those that teeth wouldn't exist.
01:12:56
Shauna (she/her)
And I think that's always why the funniest comedy comes from the self and it comes from experience.
01:12:57
Ryan
Yes.
01:13:02
Ryan
And from the people with the most trauma. um
Personal Experiences & Cultural Observations
01:13:05
Jaclyn
Yeah, just ask Sean about going to a concert with me and my friends as we made an Uber driver very uncomfortable as we were all dressed to the fucking so slutty and so femme and we're just all talking about what boys we are.
01:13:05
Shauna (she/her)
the A lot of experiences.
01:13:23
Jaclyn
like Just a boys night out Just night out with the boys.
01:13:27
Shauna (she/her)
It was the funniest thing. And so like I had, and so just to set the stage, so like I was going, I was staying with Jacqueline and then we all of a sudden, you know, like your partner and some friends and all like, everyone like all came over and like, so we're all getting ready. It's like a really cute like scene. And so like the four of us, you know, we, we put the doll on dolled up and we're all ready to head out And we go into this Uber and, you know, it's this guy and then just, you know, like, oh, yeah, just boys night out, you know, and guys being dudes as we do.
01:13:49
Ryan
Yeah. and
01:13:58
Jaclyn
It's fully out.
01:13:58
Shauna (she/her)
and like theyre just like it it's like 10 to 15 minutes all the way just like kept going.
01:13:59
Jaclyn
It's like hardly covered.
01:14:05
Shauna (she/her)
And I have just... dying laughing at this and it was just such a surreal thing and like such an l LA experience for my very like Midwest ones ass that I would like I would never dare but I love that at this we're like no no this is the like taking the piss out of it all as and also another element of that I very rarely get the experience of being the shortest woman in a group and I loved standing in the circle of all of us at the concert and I was like oh
01:14:09
Ryan
thats
01:14:14
Ryan
yeah
01:14:21
Ryan
Yeah.
01:14:35
Jaclyn
Yeah, I'm a tall girl.
01:14:35
Shauna (she/her)
Oh, this is what my career is.
01:14:37
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah, i was like, I'm not...
01:14:38
Jaclyn
It was a 100 Gex show too, just to make it even trans.
01:14:38
Shauna (she/her)
yeah you ah Yes. So that is a very... Okay, yeah, exactly. It is a very... It is what I tell to the 20-something trans people I meet that I saw at the 100 Gex in l LA.
01:14:53
Shauna (she/her)
It like gives me a lot of cool trans cred for being an older trans. And so I love that for me. And so that is like...
01:14:59
Ryan
Interesting being an older tram.
01:15:00
Shauna (she/her)
no That is true, yes.
01:15:02
Jaclyn
Yes.
01:15:03
Ryan
oh
01:15:03
Shauna (she/her)
That is what I
01:15:03
Ryan
Oh, okay.
01:15:03
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah. Yeah.
01:15:05
Ryan
I don't know if I'm allowed to say that.
01:15:05
Shauna (she/her)
Like, no, no, i'm not i'm not a regular millennial.
01:15:07
Ryan
and
01:15:09
Shauna (she/her)
I'm a cool millennial. Like, yeah.
01:15:11
Ryan
Yeah, very bad.
01:15:12
Shauna (she/her)
but
01:15:13
Ryan
I know i know what's happening.
01:15:15
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah, I...
01:15:15
Ryan
go ahead. sorry go ahead
01:15:18
Shauna (she/her)
No, no, just, but that was a very, yeah. So like seeing like a hundred Gekshon, I'd never heard of them. And I was like, oh my gosh. And then like literally, of course, then for the next like year after that, i was like, oh, I saw a moment that I did not realize I was seeing.
01:15:32
Shauna (she/her)
And also this sweetheart, I will never forget her finding me ah yeah like noise canceling earbuds because it was the loudest show of my life. And just like absolutely say the day, my hero, like she was, it was the best.
01:15:46
Ryan
ah
01:15:48
Jaclyn
Very mom-coded sometimes.
01:15:48
Shauna (she/her)
yeah That's true.
01:15:49
Ryan
um the ah Same. ah But i don't know if you said Dom coded or mom coded, but either way,
01:15:57
Jaclyn
Truly both. Truly both.
01:15:58
Ryan
both yeah um
01:16:01
Jaclyn
Ask Shauna about either.
01:16:07
Ryan
you
01:16:08
Shauna (she/her)
so
01:16:08
Ryan
Speed of ah side comments, I almost said, I almost interrupted your story ah several times as one does, but um you said like I witnessed a moment of, um that I didn't know was a moment.
01:16:15
Shauna (she/her)
No, please.
01:16:21
Ryan
And I almost said, kind of like when I saw Dua Lipa open for Troye Sivan at the Lakewood Civic Auditorium.
01:16:28
Jaclyn
Whoa, good goal.
01:16:28
Shauna (she/her)
Yes.
01:16:29
Ryan
Yeah, I like, I don't think Dua, I mean, I was, Troye Sivan was the the headliner
01:16:29
Jaclyn
That's great.
01:16:35
Ryan
at Lakewood civic auditorium. Um, and, uh, do a leap. I like, didn't really know her. I had heard her name a couple of times, but now she's fucking do the peep. Um,
01:16:47
Shauna (she/her)
Look, when I saw, and this was, she was already in the process of blowing up, but when I saw Chapel Roan here in Cleveland, I said that that day, this is how I know we can support a WNBA team. Because seeing the absolute line all around the flats of all of these femmes in pink and camo, because that was the theme, I was like, this crowd is showing up like this.
01:17:07
Ryan
yeah
01:17:10
Shauna (she/her)
Like, we we can support this.
01:17:11
Ryan
We're good. We're good.
01:17:13
Jaclyn
I love it. I love it.
01:17:14
Shauna (she/her)
And now we're getting a women's sports bar. Did you hear about that? We're getting a women's sports bar too.
01:17:18
Jaclyn
No, but I have to come back.
01:17:19
Ryan
Is it going to be cleverly named? That's
01:17:21
Shauna (she/her)
It's the W.
01:17:23
Jaclyn
Oh, that's good.
01:17:23
Shauna (she/her)
So I think it's cute.
01:17:24
Ryan
fine.
01:17:25
Shauna (she/her)
No, it's cute. Like, and it's going to be like, it's going to be right there in like Gordon Square.
01:17:26
Ryan
it's cute.
01:17:29
Shauna (she/her)
Like it's, so it's got it, like it's got a real
01:17:30
Ryan
Cute. I don't know. Okay, I had this idea. I'm so annoyed. I really wanted to, the place that is now Cozumel on Lee Road, um it was available for a while. and It was a great space, great patio.
01:17:47
Ryan
And ah I really thought it should be like a ah lesbian-owned women's sports bar. But during the day, it's just like a cafe so that it can also be a fucking sober hangout for people that want to go to queer spaces.
01:17:58
Jaclyn
or
01:18:02
Ryan
And now look at that. I knew I should have tried to find some seed money or something.
01:18:05
Shauna (she/her)
and see And now one of the owners of Brew Nuts is opening and women's sports bar. Yeah.
01:18:11
Ryan
Oh, work, Bruna.
01:18:11
Shauna (she/her)
So that is the funny. Yeah. Right. Well, because they hosted a lot of different like women's sports events.
01:18:15
Ryan
Yes.
01:18:16
Shauna (she/her)
like I went and watched like a WNBA playoff game with my like girlfriend, and it was a lot of fun. It was so much fun, actually. And like it was it was so cool to be in like this really space. I'm so excited for this opening.
01:18:26
Shauna (she/her)
like It's going to be so cool.
01:18:27
Jaclyn
Oh, I have to come visit.
01:18:28
Shauna (she/her)
cleveland Cleveland's a little fucking gem.
01:18:29
Ryan
When is that?
01:18:31
Shauna (she/her)
Cleveland's a gem. And I will always say, like it's got things you would not expect.
01:18:32
Ryan
Yeah.
01:18:32
Jaclyn
Right? I mean, you're preaching to the choir?
01:18:36
Ryan
When, um when is it open?
01:18:38
Shauna (she/her)
i think some i think ah i hope I think this summer? thank
01:18:42
Ryan
Okay.
01:18:43
Shauna (she/her)
yeah spring summer
01:18:45
Ryan
The, the last couple of things that I thought were worth noting, um the, at the end of the movie, the mom looks at the boyfriend and like yells at him,
01:18:59
Ryan
ah for it being his fault, how how she
Parallels Between Film & Personal Experiences
01:19:01
Ryan
changed. um you know like it's It's Mr. J's fault that she became Joker the Harley Quinn.
01:19:04
Jaclyn
Oof.
01:19:06
Ryan
And um it just, there was that one of the next lines was, you should be thankful Batman hasn't swooped down from the sky. and um it reminded me of um a comment that my family, member a family member and made when I was working at the center and I got acrylic nails for the first time and I showed up to Thanksgiving and this person said, you're lucky you work where you work.
01:19:33
Ryan
And I was like, that like, so I should be grateful that no one's going to fucking murder me.
01:19:34
Jaclyn
oh
01:19:41
Ryan
Anyways, on a happier note.
01:19:42
Shauna (she/her)
No.
01:19:43
Ryan
Oh, sorry. Go ahead. Please, please, please.
01:19:45
Shauna (she/her)
I was going to say, but I, but that was something like my father, when I came out to him, he blamed my spouse for it.
01:19:53
Ryan
yeah
01:19:54
Shauna (she/her)
And it was like that. It was all their fault that I turned out this way.
01:19:58
Jaclyn
But that's true.
01:19:59
Shauna (she/her)
and like, and yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:20:00
Ryan
Happy, you mean?
01:20:00
Jaclyn
Like in this case, that's true.
01:20:02
Shauna (she/her)
You know what? Okay. He got that right. But
01:20:04
Jaclyn
Yeah, yeah. No, but in this case, in this case, that's...
01:20:05
Ryan
Yeah, Yeah, he maybe knew some things.
01:20:06
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah. ah
01:20:08
Ryan
Yeah.
01:20:08
Shauna (she/her)
yeah Yeah, they definitely were doing the long con, and then it was all in the then ultimate service of their own transitioning, then ah decade after me.
01:20:09
Jaclyn
I'm just kidding.
01:20:12
Ryan
Yes.
01:20:15
Jaclyn
Yes, exactly.
01:20:17
Shauna (she/her)
Like, that was all. It was real, like, yeah, the seeds were planted. it was layers.
01:20:22
Ryan
yeah Excellent.
01:20:24
Shauna (she/her)
layers
01:20:25
Jaclyn
Yes, I'm just kidding to people listening to this who don't know that I'm i'm just a little stinker.
01:20:29
Ryan
Exactly. Yeah. Mind your business. Mind your business.
01:20:32
Shauna (she/her)
yeah
01:20:32
Ryan
That's what I say to the people.
01:20:33
Jaclyn
i'm I'm assigned little, syct I was assigned a little stinker at birth.
01:20:37
Ryan
Oh, uh, one of the like final lines that I thought was really beautiful and did kind of, uh, um, damn it.
01:20:43
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah,
01:20:50
Shauna (she/her)
so
01:20:52
Ryan
ah Will L. Sabs, that he said.
01:20:56
Shauna (she/her)
Assignment of Sinker Birth.
01:20:58
Ryan
Yeah.
01:20:58
Shauna (she/her)
but
01:20:59
Ryan
ah But one of the things that Joker the Harlequin says to Mr. J is, you were my happy beginning and I think I needed more. i think I needed that more right now.
01:21:11
Ryan
And that really, really, you know, you don't realize how fucked up you' your roots are until you see a healthy fucking leaf or something like that.
01:21:21
Ryan
i don't know if that's a good...
01:21:22
Shauna (she/her)
No. Yeah.
01:21:23
Ryan
like you know
01:21:24
Jaclyn
so real
01:21:24
Ryan
eight But that's what it very much so feels like in that line.
01:21:26
Shauna (she/her)
no
01:21:29
Ryan
Again, Vera, if you ever come across this podcast, wonderful, just a masterful piece of work that you...
01:21:35
Jaclyn
what a genius
01:21:40
Ryan
have probably changed so many lives and will change so many lives just by the the ease of storytelling that you somehow access.
01:21:47
Shauna (she/her)
yeah
01:21:49
Ryan
And I loved the mixed media of it all, like the random animation parts and the ran and like how, again, kind of like and unpolished is a word that like came to mind, but like how raw it feels, just fucking gorgeous.
01:22:02
Shauna (she/her)
Right? You couldn't crack more eggs if you drove a Cybertruck by.
01:22:07
Ryan
Bye.
01:22:10
Ryan
Damn it, Shawna. ah Also, Shawna taught me what that expression was.
01:22:15
Shauna (she/her)
That's, that's, that... Okay.
01:22:17
Ryan
So that feels like a nice callback to me now understanding, you know, the the lingo.
01:22:18
Jaclyn
Oh, my goodness.
01:22:23
Ryan
um Okay, so at the end of ah every episode, we have to answer the seminal question, who is the hottest character in the People's Joker?
01:22:38
Jaclyn
Oh, it's Vera.
01:22:38
Ryan
Jacqueline.
01:22:39
Shauna (she/her)
Lorne Michaels.
01:22:40
Ryan
is Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:22:40
Shauna (she/her)
Oh, yeah, Vera. Yeah, that's true.
01:22:42
Jaclyn
it's it's It's end of the movie Joker Harlequin is so hot.
01:22:44
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah.
01:22:46
Ryan
End of the movie, Vera.
01:22:48
Jaclyn
I mean, like, God damn, is she so hot.
01:22:49
Shauna (she/her)
I
01:22:50
Ryan
Yeah.
01:22:52
Jaclyn
And yes, Lauren Michaels.
01:22:52
Ryan
Yeah, she looks
01:22:52
Shauna (she/her)
mean, who doesn't love a funny girl? But, like,
01:22:56
Jaclyn
No, it's she's so hot and she's so funny and she's just like.
01:22:57
Ryan
I'm not doing it.
01:22:57
Shauna (she/her)
hot as hell.
01:23:01
Jaclyn
Oh, so fucking good.
01:23:02
Shauna (she/her)
Gorgeous.
01:23:02
Jaclyn
Smooth. And that outfit at the end, the corset and the, oh.
01:23:04
Ryan
Also...
01:23:07
Ryan
And the tits, specifically?
01:23:09
Jaclyn
I didn't say that, but yes.
01:23:09
Shauna (she/her)
All the tips.
01:23:10
Ryan
did. I'm saying it. um Also, what does it say about me that um my actual answer that I wrote down was Mr. J? Because he was kind of hot.
01:23:19
Shauna (she/her)
o
01:23:20
Jaclyn
Oh, I get it.
01:23:21
Ryan
He was super hot.
01:23:22
Jaclyn
Who doesn't like a toxic trans mask person?
01:23:23
Shauna (she/her)
that
01:23:24
Jaclyn
Come on.
01:23:25
Ryan
Hello!
01:23:25
Jaclyn
and Fellas, slide into my DMs, please.
01:23:26
Ryan
The... We...
01:23:29
Shauna (she/her)
a
01:23:29
Ryan
Same.
01:23:30
Jaclyn
Gaslight me.
01:23:30
Ryan
Same, same, same. Please. Please. Please. please um Okay, so, ah I mean, first and foremost, Jacqueline, thank you so much for joining us.
Upcoming Projects & Criticisms
01:23:42
Ryan
um
01:23:42
Jaclyn
Thank you for having me.
01:23:42
Ryan
Thanks for your genius insight and your just ah fantastic presence. And um is there anything that you want to plug, anything that you want to share? Yeah.
01:23:57
Jaclyn
Yeah. um Watch Based on a True Story on Peacock, currently streaming. Watch, um I don't know when it's coming out, but um Nine Perfect Strangers season two, I wrote and produced and that's coming out. Yeah.
01:24:16
Ryan
That
01:24:17
Jaclyn
sometime later this year. um It's very fun. We have a really great cast for the season. Nicole is obviously back, Miss Kidman herself, but a new nine strangers that are really wonderful.
01:24:25
Ryan
that bitch.
01:24:29
Jaclyn
I think I, I think I can say who's in it. I think it's been announced. Murray Bartlett, Annie Murphy, Christine Baranski, and a whole host of other brilliant, brilliant
01:24:39
Shauna (she/her)
Christine, oh my gosh, I love Christine Baranski. And Annie Murphy, but like, oh my gosh.
01:24:42
Jaclyn
It's a great, they play mother daughter.
01:24:42
Ryan
love Christine Bransky.
01:24:44
Ryan
Um, Murray Bartlett?
01:24:47
Jaclyn
Yeah.
01:24:48
Ryan
Murray Bartlett can do whatever he wants to me.
01:24:54
Jaclyn
Oh, I mean, girl, I am
01:24:57
Jaclyn
But, yes, so season two coming sometime soon to Hulu.
01:25:00
Shauna (she/her)
Oh, this is exciting.
01:25:00
Ryan
So second sort of-ish question. um
01:25:07
Ryan
One of the, again, the reason for the sort of like scheduling of this movie or of this episode was because we wanted to try to put it out before the awful, yeah, the the wretched, wretched whatever film.
01:25:20
Jaclyn
oscars
01:25:27
Jaclyn
Here's my hot take. I don't think that movie is as bad as people say it is, but I also don't think it's any good at all.
01:25:31
Shauna (she/her)
who
01:25:32
Jaclyn
So, like, it's, like, it's a movie that's, like, super boring and, like, like kind of okay.
01:25:32
Ryan
ah Yeah. Yeah.
01:25:33
Shauna (she/her)
Okay.
01:25:38
Jaclyn
There are parts of it I don't hate, but I mostly hate it because it is really...
01:25:41
Shauna (she/her)
is it Is it the song the song with about
01:25:44
Jaclyn
Yeah, this it's a bad musical, which is a bummer when you're making a musical.
01:25:47
Ryan
Yeah.
01:25:49
Jaclyn
um
01:25:49
Ryan
Yeah.
01:25:49
Jaclyn
I don't think it's a very good movie, and i really but the biggest thing is like I resent it ah because it's made...
01:25:56
Ryan
Yeah.
01:25:56
Jaclyn
I'm so sick of European... european like dudes being like, I'm going to make a movie about transness. I don't really want to engage with transness at all. And then of course she, up until about a month ago, I was like, well, you know, let's support our girl.
01:26:06
Ryan
Right.
01:26:12
Jaclyn
Like I want, but then ah turns out she's the worst tweeter in that.
01:26:12
Ryan
Nope.
01:26:15
Ryan
Get that bitch out of here.
01:26:18
Jaclyn
You know, it's always a good reminder that you can hate trans people too. Like trans people can hate trans people too.
01:26:21
Ryan
Yes. Yes.
01:26:24
Jaclyn
Like we, some of us are bad and,
01:26:24
Ryan
Yes.
01:26:27
Ryan
So there are a lot of people who just happen, who a lot of bad people who just happen to be trans, and that bitch is one of them.
01:26:27
Shauna (she/her)
I was just saying...
01:26:33
Shauna (she/her)
right
01:26:33
Jaclyn
Yeah.
01:26:34
Shauna (she/her)
Look, you know, the best way to change hearts and minds is by knowing trans people. And unfortunately, that works and in inverse. The Republicans only knew Caitlyn Jenner, and that sucks. But, you know, like...
01:26:43
Jaclyn
Yeah. It's so true.
01:26:44
Ryan
Yeah. I've switched to the roof.
01:26:46
Shauna (she/her)
Unfortunately...
01:26:46
Ryan
I just...
01:26:46
Shauna (she/her)
You know what? If that was the only trans person I know, I hate us too. Fuck, man.
01:26:50
Jaclyn
For real.
01:26:50
Ryan
Yeah, true.
01:26:50
Shauna (she/her)
Like...
01:26:51
Jaclyn
For real.
01:26:52
Ryan
But at the same time, she's also espousing a lot of the same values as the Republicans. You know, she want brown people there.
01:26:56
Shauna (she/her)
Well, that's... Which, again, just shows that it doesn't matter that...
01:26:57
Ryan
she could She could be their diversity hire if they hadn't canceled all of their diversity programs.
01:27:02
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah.
01:27:02
Jaclyn
There you go.
01:27:04
Ryan
um Okay, so anyways, we...
01:27:06
Shauna (she/her)
She's actually going to come full circle and get hired under her dead name. It's real unfortunate. like They're going to be like...
01:27:11
Ryan
Yikes, yikes, yikes.
01:27:14
Shauna (she/her)
They're like, no we're no, we're actually your core again because we just don't... Pretending this last decade didn't count.
01:27:20
Jaclyn
Yeah. Oh yeah. No, those tweets actually got her hired.
01:27:21
Ryan
Exactly.
01:27:23
Jaclyn
She's going to be director of the FBI now. That's those tweets.
01:27:26
Ryan
yeah I heard that.
01:27:26
Shauna (she/her)
um
01:27:27
Ryan
I did hear that.
01:27:28
Jaclyn
Those tweets are really popular.
01:27:28
Ryan
And she'll be hosting SNL next season.
01:27:29
Shauna (she/her)
She's like,
01:27:30
Jaclyn
Yeah. Those tweets are really popular inside the white house.
01:27:33
Ryan
Yeah. um So we wanted to promote and like encourage people to watch trans-led, trans-created films that actually center transness and like you said, engage with transness.
01:27:48
Ryan
So any other media that you would suggest, Jacqueline, like perhaps the specific episode that you um are.
01:27:55
Jaclyn
Episode six of Queer as Folk, uh, of the reboot of Queer as Folk is a good one.
01:27:58
Ryan
Mm hmm.
01:28:02
Jaclyn
If you're only going to buy one off iTunes, you could probably get away with just watching that one. Um, but some others, just like shouting out some other trans folks that I just love. And like, um, there's a movie called national anthem from last year that, uh, my friend Eve Lindley is one of the stars of, um, wonderful, beautiful trans actress.
01:28:22
Jaclyn
And she is incredible in it. Um, There's a great band called Jasmine Forti. don't know if that's the name of the band or if that's just her music name and she has a band.
01:28:35
Ryan
Yeah.
01:28:38
Jaclyn
that's with But she's awesome. Her album is um it just came out and is really good. And she's going on tour with Lucy Dacus. So the lesbians will be seeing her. um And yeah, I saw the TV glow, I guess.
01:28:52
Jaclyn
Yeah, it's also
01:28:52
Ryan
yeah We wanted to do another one, but we, i mean, we we can still absolutely do another one, but ah the point was trying to get them out before the Oscars, just as a reminder that there's already great transmedia that you can go ahead and watch instead of that one.
01:29:03
Shauna (she/her)
Like, the best.
01:29:07
Jaclyn
Yeah, absolutely.
01:29:08
Shauna (she/her)
Heck, even Chasing Chasing Amy. Because we were talking, we were doing Kevin Smith.
01:29:11
Jaclyn
Yes, Stav! Chasing Chasing Amy, yes.
01:29:14
Shauna (she/her)
I loved it so much.
01:29:15
Ryan
That's coming soon.
01:29:16
Shauna (she/her)
It's, that is a, yeah, we're good. Because we were, we' we were just, we just did Clerks and we're going to go through Viewers universe. Because I love those movies.
01:29:25
Jaclyn
It's
01:29:25
Shauna (she/her)
Like, there's so, again, like just nerdy love letters to all of this.
01:29:30
Jaclyn
true. I love it.
01:29:31
Ryan
So, um, state.
01:29:32
Shauna (she/her)
and such an ah And Kevin Smith's an ally, and I love that so much. And I'm like, it's such like...
01:29:36
Jaclyn
Yes.
01:29:36
Ryan
We'd love to see an actual one full circle, not Joss Whedon piece shit.
01:29:39
Shauna (she/her)
Yeah. The...
01:29:40
Ryan
Actually, I can't believe i said his name. Fuck him. Bummer.
Closing & Next Episode Teaser
01:29:44
Ryan
Yay. Kevin s Smith. Um, but actually, so that's a great plug for our next episode, which is likely going to be, uh, Jane silent, Bob strike back slash mall rats featuring,
01:29:55
Ryan
the elusive aforementioned heterosexual cisgender best friend of mine. And I can't wait to have that diversity higher on here. um You know, it's great. its
01:30:06
Shauna (she/her)
I do like that we went from the two trans women episode that are like, alright, now we gotta get like the cis white straight guy in.
01:30:06
Ryan
We're still plugging.
01:30:11
Ryan
does yeah
01:30:12
Shauna (she/her)
Like, really just like...
01:30:14
Ryan
He knows his role because he is the only one that has made it all time.
01:30:15
Shauna (she/her)
It
01:30:19
Ryan
you know, several iterations of this person, but also just imagine me welcoming a cis straight white man into my life, like willingly at this point.
01:30:28
Shauna (she/her)
but says a lot. Yeah.
01:30:29
Ryan
There's a lot. um So yeah, there's
01:30:31
Shauna (she/her)
There's room for two at most. Like...
01:30:33
Ryan
yeah
01:30:35
Ryan
ah the, so wait, you know, check us out on Instagram at realhotnerdpod.com. um You can follow our socials at intuitive blurred on Instagram at Helen pastels on Instagram at Helen pastels on blue sky at intuitive blurred on X because i'm a piece of shit and i haven't jumped ship yet.
01:30:53
Ryan
actually did jump ship, but I just don't use it. um But yeah, thanks for, um know I'll do my part.
01:30:56
Shauna (she/her)
You need to. It's got contribute to it being better.
01:31:02
Ryan
It's like when someone finally like directly said to me, you have to stop going to target.
01:31:02
Jaclyn
Thank you.
01:31:06
Ryan
I was like, Oh, I know. Thanks for calling me out. God damn it. I know, I have to switch to a loose guy. God damn it, won't get there. Okay, thanks for listening. We'll catch you all next time.
01:31:17
Ryan
hot, smooches. Bye.