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Talk With Her An Essential Guide to Raising Daughters - Book Discussion
283 Plays1 year ago
Welcome back to another episode of The Therapy4Dads Podcast! I'm your host, Travis Goodman, and today we have a special episode dedicated to a book discussion on raising daughters. Joining me are our guests, Kimberly Wolf, Jason Linton, Shaun Frey, and Nate Feathers, as we delve into the essential guide of "Talk With Her: An Essential Guide to Raising Daughters."
Throughout the episode, our speakers emphasize the significance of supporting their daughter's transition from girlhood to womanhood, tackling issues of body positivity and self-doubt. They acknowledge that we may say the wrong things at times, but believe that being involved and supportive is more important than being perfect.
In addition to discussing their personal experiences, our guests share insights from the book that have had a profound impact on their parenting journey. We'll explore topics such as creating open dialogues, instilling self-value in daughters, and addressing the challenges of raising teenage girls. Along the way, we'll gain valuable advice on how to navigate the unique journey of being a father to a daughter.
So grab a cup of coffee, sit back, and join us as we dive into "Talk With Her: An Essential Guide to Raising Daughters" and explore the joys and challenges of raising strong, confident, and empowered young women. Let's get started on this enlightening and meaningful conversation.
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Transcript
Introduction to Therapy for Dads Podcast
00:00:08
Speaker
This is a Therapy for Dads podcast. I am your host. My name is Travis. I'm a therapist, a dad, a husband. Here at Therapy for Dads, we provide content around the integration of holistic mental health, well-researched evidence-based education, and parenthood. Welcome.
00:00:28
Speaker
Welcome everybody.
Live Discussion on 'Talk with Her'
00:00:29
Speaker
We're so excited to have you all and tonight we are doing the live discussion Q&A and roundtable discussion on the book, Talk with Her by author Kimberly Wolf and with some special guests, some friends of mine, Sean, Nate and Jason, other girl dads who are going to be part of the conversation, all talking about this book.
00:00:50
Speaker
answering some questions for them and also answering your questions so I can't wait to hear what you have for us and what you bring in and what you want to ask us whether it's asking Kimmy or myself or the other dads but so excited for tonight so excited to have these guests here and be able to talk about this really really important field guide essentially for dads on helping and guiding
00:01:16
Speaker
and raising daughters. So without further ado, I just want to welcome the rest of the team here.
Kimberly Wolf's Motivation for Writing
00:01:23
Speaker
And I'm going to have kind of Kimmy kind of share first and foremost, kind of why she wrote this book. Like what was the idea behind this? What brought her to thinking about this? Like why do we need this book in this world?
00:01:39
Speaker
So there's a lot I could say, obviously, but growing up in Los Angeles, I was just very aware from a young age of the multitude of questions and challenges facing girls as we grew up. And I was really interested in the impact of the media and how we were learning about ourselves and our bodies and what we needed to know.
00:02:01
Speaker
studied the topic in college at Brown and in grad school at Harvard, and I have built my career around girls' wellbeing, particularly with regard to girls' wellness media and wellness education.
00:02:17
Speaker
And I was, I'm a little bit of an unlikely fatherhood expert, I realize. But what happened a little, you know, about 15 years into my career is that I was launching a girls health platform and I started talking to a lot of men, investors, advisors, educators, and a lot of them turned out to be fathers of daughters. And so the conversations quickly turned to
00:02:40
Speaker
me offering personal advice and answer to questions that I was honored to be asked, the first of which was, I just got divorced. Can I start dating again? Or will that hurt my daughter? Other questions followed in all of my meetings. And so my focus turned towards the father-daughter relationship because I was talking to all of these men who I would have thought just had all of the answers. But even though they felt like they had all the answers in all areas of their life or seem to
00:03:08
Speaker
they didn't seem to have all the answers when it came to daughters. And so that got me down this path of looking at the research around the father-daughter relationship and how essential and important it is.
Evolving Father-Daughter Roles
00:03:22
Speaker
And as a gender studies major myself and a scholar of gender, I became really interested in those dynamics. And I shortly thereafter called my own father and said, dad,
00:03:34
Speaker
Was I really that much harder to raise than my brother? And he said, Oh yeah, absolutely without question. And that really inspired me. And I thought this has to be a bigger conversation. We have to talk about this more. Men need answers, not just for themselves, but for the betterment of our girls and the next generations for everybody's wellbeing. And, uh,
00:04:00
Speaker
Everything you just said about why you wrote the book and the passion behind it and kind of what you're hearing in kind of the business world and the men you're working with and realizing that we needed this guide, I think, you know, I've read the book a couple times actually now, not every single middle part of the book, but I've definitely skimmed each and every one of the questions multiple times prepping for this.
00:04:22
Speaker
That's okay. We say you can jump around. Yes, you can. And I do jump around. And reading it from the get-go, I immediately felt invited in as a dad. We've had a separate recording specifically with you on this book, on the podcast, and I got to share a bit more about my experience.
Fathers Introduce Themselves
00:04:41
Speaker
Before we jump into kind of some other questions, I just wanted to welcome the other guys, Jason, Nate, and Sean, other girl dads. Can you guys just say hi real quick and do a quick intro of who you are and kind of what you do and kind of how many kids you got, how many girls? Sean, you go first, Sean. All right, I'll go first. Sure. So yeah, my name's Sean.
00:05:05
Speaker
I am the lone Canadian over here. And I have two girls. So my first daughter Zoe, who is just about three, going on 10. And then my newest daughter, her name is Olivia, she is just over three weeks old. So I'm a little sleep deprived. But yeah,
00:05:27
Speaker
go ahead. Jason, he said you had the wow. So go ahead. Yeah, I've been there. Um, my name is Jason Linton. I live in Oklahoma. I have two girls. One is eight years old, just turned eight. And the other one is 14. And, um, yeah, I saw a lot of my situations in the book. And so I definitely am
00:05:54
Speaker
armed to the teeth with allegories for our discussion. I'm Nate. I'm just outside of Nashville. I am a father of five with one on the way. But two are girls, and we don't know about this next one. My wife says she feels like it's a girl. So we could be three and three by the time it's all said and done. But my oldest girl is 16. So there's a lot in the book that I was like, OK, I really need to talk about this.
00:06:23
Speaker
like the social media. I'm sure we'll get there. But like the Snapchat thing is like in my face right now. I mean, she's constantly wanting it and I keep pushing it off. And then I also have a three year old and she is like you said three. But like, yeah, going on 10, maybe 30, whatever.
00:06:43
Speaker
And for those that don't know, I'm Travis. I have three kids, two boys, and my youngest is a daughter who will be two years old this December. And so I think where I'm at is kind of prep work. I'm getting ahead of the curve, so to speak, to prep for having kind of an elementary school daughter, teenage daughter, and learning from obviously this book along from some of the dads that have older daughters like Jason and Nate.
00:07:08
Speaker
Um, so, you know, I kinda, I'm going to turn to them as the veterans when I have questions. Uh, and, uh, thankfully we have a working relationship that I can text them and ask, what do I do? Jason and Nate, when it comes to this or Kimmy, Hey, Kimmy, you're a girl. Please help me with this. Yeah.
00:07:27
Speaker
And so I'm very excited to have this with all these other dads and with Kimmy to have this conversation just kind of raw and open.
Significance of 'Talk with Her' for Fathers
00:07:34
Speaker
And as you're joining, those who are going to be watching live begin, you can start dropping questions anytime in and we will have really the second half of this conversation is going to be just asking questions and answering questions. So that's what this is about. We're not going to go over everything in this book. So go buy the book and get the book.
00:07:57
Speaker
I also have an episode on my podcast, Therapy for Dads, which me and Kimmy kind of talk a little more in depth about the book. But tonight's really about answering your questions and kind of getting feedback from these other dads on their experience reading the book and kind of what stood out for them. And so that's what we're going tonight just to kind of give you a slight roadmap. And yeah, so with that said, I'm wondering as guys, you read the book,
00:08:26
Speaker
What was the most profound thing that stood out to you as you were flipping through the pages and absorbing the information as girl dads? I think so. Everything covered in the book, it's a little ahead in my future here.
00:08:49
Speaker
Uh, but that was like the key as I was like reading slash my wife makes fun of me because I listened to a lot of books and I call it reading. But anyways, as I was reading and listening to the book, I was like every anxiety and stress I have about having daughters and like being present and being a good dad and how to help them. Everything that I've been stressing about for three years is covered in the book. So like, there's not one specific thing. It was just the whole book. I was like,
00:09:18
Speaker
I think it was just a sigh of relief. I was like, okay, like this stuff is normal and it's okay to be stressed about it. And like, there's somebody that's walking me through it. So that was it for me as I was just like, it felt like a immense weight was lifted off my shoulders, but I was reading the book. That was it for me. Thanks, Sean. I think for me, it was,
00:09:45
Speaker
I guess when you were talking about guys asking you the questions about what to do with their daughters, and I'm like, wait, so everybody else is clueless just like me? Seriously, I went to school for like, I did psychology, some of the stuff I know what my daughter's going to say before she says it.
00:10:08
Speaker
there comes some times where it's like, wham, like, I'll just sit there dumbstruck. And I'm like, I'm like, I have the comprehension of a five year old right now. And she's towering over me intellectually.
00:10:23
Speaker
And it was to know that other people that were powerful and successful, they were also brought down to bear like, oh wow, I really don't know what I'm doing. But also the book puts it in context that
00:10:39
Speaker
It's okay to feel like that. And the book is there not to make me feel intimidated, but to empower me to get into it with those situations and not to feel like I'm going to always feel like this.
00:10:55
Speaker
or that you were behind the ball ever. Because I think that is where a lot of people, because of all of the myths and the anxiety around father-daughter relationships, which starts as soon as people find out they're having a daughter, which is like, we'll just wait.
00:11:12
Speaker
And that's like such a big message. It's so damaging. And so everybody is just like, okay, my daughter's coming, I better not mess it up. Yes, yes. Like I'm looking around the corner like, is it now? Is the thing now? Yeah. I'm glad that spoke to you because it's true. That was really a big focus of mine in writing the book.
00:11:41
Speaker
You know, I am very close with a lot of men in my life.
Societal Expectations of Fathers
00:11:45
Speaker
And I have a lot of male mentors. It was men who shepherded me through my early career. I got very lucky in Hollywood. I worked with the best men in Hollywood early on. And I, you know, for me, I was just like, oh, my goodness, this is this is this is awful. Like, we can't have everybody be so concerned about this, because in fact, you know, what we say is this book is not about everything that you have to do right. It's about what you're already doing right.
00:12:15
Speaker
I think I have the oldest daughter in the group of guys, I think. And it validated a lot of stuff where I was like, what is happening? Like, it helped me kind of feel not crazy because there were points in which, like, I think you even said it at one point, it's like, yeah, you're going to like lose arguments. And I don't. Oh, I don't lose arguments. You know what I mean? Like, yes, you do. And then I'm like, that's it. Yeah, exactly. Like, oh.
00:12:42
Speaker
Yeah, and usually it was like a storm off, like, I didn't storm off, but she would like storm off. At one point, she was on the stairs at point, turn around, I was like, I hate you. And I'm like, man, that, that cuts, that cuts, like, my boy's destroying my stuff. You're destroying my heart. Like, what is this? I think at one point, and honestly, it really did validate a lot of stuff where we've had pretty honest conversation. We're pretty raw in my house. And so, like, when we, when we feel that we say it kind of thing as much as we can, and we try to
00:13:10
Speaker
exemplify that for our kids. And so I remember being like, what happened to the daughter that wanted to curl up in my lap and hang out? Like, where did that go? Because now you're like, you're an idiot, and I don't want to be around you. And I'm like, I'm the same guy. What just happened? My dad jokes just start dropping. What is the story there? They're not landed. Yeah, they were not. She's got that look. She's got a look that'll just is like,
00:13:38
Speaker
You're dumb." I was like, awesome. That's fun. We were cool before and now we're not. There was a ton of validation going, all right, I'm not crazy. This is actually part of the growth side of things. I know what you're saying. People are like, oh, just wait. They're cuddly and all that and then they're just going to bring out the fangs. I hate that because you're right. I feel like it's really damaging to how we're just waiting for the shoe to drop. But there is a change and if you're not ready for it,
00:14:08
Speaker
It can feel like that. I mean, that's what it felt for me for a good minute. Yeah. It's also so I have found with all of the interviews that I've done in the hundreds of personal conversations I had just in the writing of this book.
00:14:24
Speaker
I mean, there's so many moments where it just, it also makes men feel really sad. It's like really sad, those moments. I mean, I talked to one guy and he goes, she just doesn't want to hold my hand anymore when we go to school. And then I talked to more guys who were like, she doesn't want to hold my hand anymore when you go to school. You know, it's really, those things are real. And you do feel very shut down. And on the validation point, it's like, if you feel like a loser, you're a winner.
00:14:50
Speaker
Because if you're there to catch the attitude and the negativity, like, you're still a winner. Because if you're not catching attitude, and she's not, you know, shutting you down, and you're not your dad jokes aren't falling flat, that means that you're not present. Like if you're present, then you're getting a lot of negative feedback. Right. One thing you said that is such a, this sums up kind of what I was thinking. So like,
00:15:19
Speaker
I'm not a big self-help book type person. I don't know. Some people are and that's fine. I'm not. And this is not that. Like you said, it's not like, here's the steps of what you need to do to get this result. It's like, here's the situations. And here's what you're probably already doing. Here's some insights. It's not, I don't know the word. It's not preachy. It's just pure knowledge that, yeah.
00:15:50
Speaker
I can't imagine not having this book and this is going to be by my bedside table like every six months and being like, Oh, here we go. Here we go. Then like, like Nate and Jason said before, I think before we started, it's like, this is just going to be like a go to guide when, when something comes up. It's just like, all right, what chapter is that? Well, thank you. I'm so glad the, you know,
00:16:13
Speaker
So the book, people have referenced this middle chapter where there are each scenario. There's a chapter in the middle of the book which includes briefs on 19 key topics. And the inspiration for the design of the book comes straight out of the business world. All of these conversations with men started in business meetings. I've been an educator and a parent educator and a kid educator for a long time. But I also came up in my career supporting a lot of men
00:16:44
Speaker
and as an executive assistant, a creative director in different ways. And I love self-help, but I love business books because it's just a framework and helping you navigate what you need to navigate. These briefs are on topics like body positivity, mental health, college, social media, sex and love, breakups, college admissions, financial aid, everything.
00:17:11
Speaker
And they're just meant to help you look, you know, here's some background because all of these topics I found, and also this came, I was a school counselor for a time.
00:17:21
Speaker
And I found that so many people just didn't know where to start. Social media is a perfect example.
Men's Role in Parenting Movements
00:17:27
Speaker
And even for those of us who work in social media, I would argue the kids are ahead of us on it in a lot of ways. They're catching a lot of stuff before we are. It's built for that. How many meetings are like, OK, well, if we can make this go viral with kids, how do we do that? However, unethical. And so that's really how the book is written. So I'm so glad, Sean, that it resonated with you in that way.
00:17:52
Speaker
because it isn't written like a self-help book in a traditional way. It's not a traditional parenting book. It's really more, it's more comes out of the business frameworks that we're familiar with. Yeah. No, it's great. And I love the, um, how you said the stage two with like, was it 25? Was it 28, 29?
00:18:13
Speaker
30, 30, you know, 30 things that kind of just prep and they're real quick and short and sweet and simple, but I think getting to the point of our kind of call as dads with daughters. And you said something earlier, Kimmy, about kind of in a way that part of society has already set us up to fail, kind of like, oh, get ready, kind of it's this fear tactic. So what can you speak on that, Kimmy, quickly? And then guys, what do you think about that from having being a girl dad?
00:18:42
Speaker
Yeah, I'll speak quickly because I'm so interested to hear what everybody has to say. But this is kind of my soapbox, especially in the writing and the publishing of this book. You know, right now we're talking a lot about girls empowerment. We're talking a lot about girls' well-being. We're talking a lot about kids' well-being. We're coming out of the pandemic. It's especially precarious for young girls. And
00:19:10
Speaker
men are still not, in my opinion, as valued members of the so-called feminist movement as I think we should be. People are still like, somebody was like, isn't this book about fathers of daughters really niche?
00:19:29
Speaker
And I'm like, you know, that kind of got me, right? I mean, I said, well, it's just it's for fathers of daughters all across the globe. I think that's like a pretty big group of people. And then somebody was like, yeah, but it's it's fathers of daughters who also care about parenting stuff.
00:19:50
Speaker
I think that's really problematic. And so I think that all of this, and I think that we're just getting there. I don't fault people. I think we're stuck in some old paradigms, even with the
00:20:05
Speaker
you know, really amazing fatherhood parenting movement that's out there. It's still going to take time to, you know, for everybody to kind of get it, that this is so important. And if we want, you know, and even if it was just girls, but it's not just girls, people read this book and they know that it's for everybody. But you know, even if it
00:20:25
Speaker
if it was just girls, fathers are an integral part and father figures. And that's not to say that, you know, this isn't to be exclusive of people who don't, aren't close with their fathers or don't have immediate father figures, but for girls who have father figures, it can be incredibly integral to their development and wellbeing. And I think one thing that you, you spoke to in the book that really got to me is as a, as a dad, um,
00:20:54
Speaker
when we're getting older, we kind of get to this place where we feel like we're this sage and we have all this knowledge and we want to impart it to our kid, especially our girls, because we don't want anybody to run game on them and we want to do all this stuff. And we forget, we don't really take into thought the tone that we bring it across. And it's like, we can be here and we're like, I'm giving you good stuff. And our kid is like,
00:21:23
Speaker
Whatever and it's and I think when you said To speak to your child as if they're an adult like speak to them with that type of respect like he would appear Um, but it's not like you're letting them run their own Show, but you're speaking to them as if they're appear and as if they can understand what you're saying to them and giving them that respect and I was like
00:21:47
Speaker
Am I, am I guilty of coming over the top and being like, Hey, I'm Gen X. We were cool. We did this before you, like we get caught up in those type of culture little things. And because we don't want to be ashamed of who we are, like generationally, right? And Gen X is clearly the coolest, but, but when, but when
00:22:11
Speaker
But if I'm imparting that knowledge or just sharing the ideas with my kid, they may not want to, like, subscribe to them. And in your book, it's like telling me, hey, she might not go at what you're saying, and you've got to hold your game face and be OK with that, because it's part of individuation. Like, she's walking into herself. And I'm like, OK.
00:22:38
Speaker
I need to change up the way that I speak because I really thought that what I had to say was quite grand and it should be received as such. I would say that what you have to say probably is quite grand and, you know, developmentally, the more often that you repeat yourself within reason and you have these sound bites, you know, I always say they may not listen to you, but they can hear you. And when,
00:23:04
Speaker
we repeat ourselves. And when we talk about our values and the things that are important to us with our girls, with our children, the more likely they are to return to those beliefs and integrate those beliefs into their own lives when their brains stop are fully developed in their 20s.
Being a Consistent Parent
00:23:21
Speaker
And so it's a really important groundwork. You know, what's important is not to get stopped up and not to stop talking just because she's not responding the way that you would like. You can call my own dad, talk to him about this. He's an expert. And real quick, I want to speak to what Kimme said is that, you know, I think meeting you guys, you dads, and a bunch of other dads through this journey on this podcast,
00:23:47
Speaker
And I know that's not even close to how many dads are really involved with parenting. But I think we still live in this kind of conception that there's still so much, I feel like, gap in distance between what we see on social media and what's talked about. We talk about more about, it's the old tropes of what uninvolved fathers that are just not helping, not helping with mental load, just that don't care, that are just a better,
00:24:13
Speaker
stuck in like the patriarchy and things like that. And while that does exist, yes, it does. I think what gets missed is all the dads that really truly are involved, engaged, trying to change things that how they're parented and trying to really be involved and to help and to be engaged and to help their partner and to really balance things out. And I think
00:24:39
Speaker
That's what gets missed. I think why this book is so relevant and important is because it really is inviting men in and not shaming them, not beating them down. It's not like an I gotcha book. But it's really just, dad, you guys matter. Here's why you matter. Here's the research. Here's the importance that you play. And here's how you can be better.
00:25:04
Speaker
here's how you can kind of take what you already know that you're already doing and here's how I can give you some more tools and more skills and then give you roadmap to these conversations because you know reading these things even looking at this for myself like as a trained therapist I'm like I don't these are this is great I don't know I have no idea what I would say to my daughter on some of these topics and I'm reading I'm like this is good I'm using it like I'm gonna come in and use this book because
00:25:31
Speaker
But I want to say that you guys are really amazing fathers and men. And there's so many of the dads out there. So I want people to hear that. There's really a lot of amazing men that are doing things differently. And I think we need to see more of that. I think we need to talk more about that versus just the classic like...
00:25:51
Speaker
All the stuff that we hear that is so anti and against and kind of pointing the finger still, which I don't—it doesn't help the conversation. It doesn't make a difference. It just continues to divide rather than, okay, sure, now what? And I think this book is kind of like the now what? Like, okay, let's actually deal with it and here's how we make it better. Here's how we—if we equip dads to become better and more engaged, well, then we're going to change everything else, right?
00:26:16
Speaker
So I wanted to just comment on what Kimmy said prior to what Jason mentioned.
00:26:25
Speaker
yeah I just I'm so honored by you guys because you guys really are doing doing the work at different stages and really you know knowing you personally outside of this and hearing what you guys are doing like really are doing the work as fathers not only with your daughters but with your with your with your other kids although for Shawn you just got daughters but for Nate and Jason with your other kids and with your and with your spouses and your partners like yeah you guys really are and so
00:26:53
Speaker
I think the world needs to see more of these types of stories and in a book like this that really is saying, hey, let's really celebrate this. Let's celebrate who men are in relationship to their daughters and their lives and spread the good news rather than just kind of constant negativity. So I really am thankful for this and yeah, you guys in that sense.
00:27:15
Speaker
I think the book kind of lets a lot of men know, hey, it's still okay to learn because a lot of us, the general consensus is that once you get to a certain age, you're supposed to have everything figured out. And so I think when we get into the whole patriarchy thing,
00:27:36
Speaker
That's why some men or some dads operate in a concrete way. This is the way that I've known to do it. And it works for me. And they don't know, hey, buddy, you can still learn. And I didn't know how much I had to grow until the world got open to me. I did some psychology courses. And I was like, wait, critical thinking?
00:28:01
Speaker
Wait, what? Like, all of this stuff until the point, like, even the other day, um, like I'd said something insensitive to my wife. I was like, um, at nighttime, you're always like upset or something like that. When we were like trying to get things, uh, and she was like kind of snipping at me and I'm like, you're upset at night.
Continuous Learning in Fatherhood
00:28:24
Speaker
And.
00:28:26
Speaker
And it made the whole situation worse. Open mouth, insert foot. And then I really like, I employed the critical thinking and I sat down and I was like, I beat myself up first, negative self-talk, always faithful. Then I stopped and I was like, wait.
00:28:44
Speaker
In our entire marriage, I fit into one sense of a role. And she took up the slack on a lot of different stuff where I was not present to help her. And here, if she's asking me to pick up, hey, Jay, can you pick up those shoes? And she's asked me about five times. And I said, hey, give it a minute.
00:29:06
Speaker
And she goes and trips over that shoe two hours later, and she's upset. Now I'm telling her, despite you asking or requiring all of this help, now, when I don't give it to you, you must be nice. And I sat there, and I really applied this thing to myself, and I'm like,
00:29:27
Speaker
This is going to be an expensive apology, but I'm going to apologize because she deserves it. And not only will I apologize after continue this thinking into learning a different way to be supportive and to be present, even me that people say, oh, he's such a great man.
00:29:43
Speaker
Every day I'm learning so many new things and that's one of the things that I think we might be burdened as dads that we need to have everything figured out. We can still learn and that takes a lot of the sting out of the stumbling.
00:30:00
Speaker
that we make as fathers because you stumble it doesn't mean you absolutely failed it means hey you just learned that there's a wrong way to do this and there's resources thanks to Kimberly that we have these resources to be like wait what's it say in this chapter
00:30:16
Speaker
And we can get it figured out. And I think the more that we make that appealing to more fathers through stuff like this that we're doing right now, they'll be less scared to crack open a book and be looked at as not having it figured out. No, I'm still learning. Don't worry. I'm not screwing up. I'm just learning.
00:30:35
Speaker
I think that actually that goes to how you interact with your kids, like boys or girls, but like specifically with your daughters in this instance is like, I don't know everything. And the hardest part I think for guys is saying that, is being okay with that.
Involvement in Daughters' Lives
00:30:53
Speaker
There's so many of the ego sits there like, I'm dad, I'm right, I know what's going on.
00:30:58
Speaker
And you know what? The truth is, you don't with your daughter because you're not a girl. So like you don't get to say that. And distinct disadvantage. Yeah, exactly. Like when you're coming in. But the thing that I what I liked about it is it's it's almost like I almost felt like the book itself is like this is when she starts to become a woman is when most guys start to bow out, right? We start to like that. I'd be like, Oh, you got to go to your mom for that. Because
00:31:26
Speaker
Honestly, I don't know period stuff. I don't know. I don't know what's going on there. And I'm one of those guys that I'm totally okay with talking about it. It doesn't bother me. But I also don't want to embarrass the snot on my daughter either. So it's kind of like, hey, I know about it. So if you need to talk and you don't have your mom, for this instance, for my world, it's like, if you don't have your mom or your bonus mom, then
00:31:51
Speaker
I can talk about it, you know, like it's okay. But the thing that I think a lot of dads do, and I know I did too, was I would like push her towards the woman in her life because I don't know any of this stuff. And I didn't grow up with girls. So it was just me and my brother. It's all complete dude over here. Like I have no idea. And so it was like one of those things where I was like, yeah, you should probably not come to me for that.
00:32:15
Speaker
But the book really is like telling us, don't do that. Get in there and be okay with fumbling and falling and looking stupid or feeling stupid. You said it, it's like if you're getting all the eye rolls and all that, then you're winning. And I get that because as that's happening, I'm going, she just knows I'm here. And that's really, that's all our kids need is to know we're here.
00:32:40
Speaker
And as she's becoming a woman, transitioning from just being a girl to becoming a woman, and there's lots of
00:32:50
Speaker
self doubt or just like you're talking about like body positivity, like it just being able to have like, all of those things. I'm just here for it. Like I'm your I'm your dad. So I'm here for it. I'm like, I'm in your corner. I think I've even said that I'm like, I'm on your team. We're team you or your team feathers. This is how it works. We're with you. But like just stepping in instead of stepping back.
00:33:16
Speaker
And I love that. It's, you know, obviously you're going to really, you're going to step in it too. Like you said, it's going to do that all the time. But if I'm doing that, then I'm in the right place. Cause, uh, cause I'm at least in, I'm in the game. Absolutely. I think to that, you know, with regard to what you're talking about, about still learning, you know, it's only in
00:33:40
Speaker
the recent last four decades or so, five decades, that men's roles have transitioned, where society has just greater respect for, there's greater opportunity for men to interact.
Resources for Evolving Father Roles
00:33:54
Speaker
There's more expectation as well, right, for especially men of our generation to step in and be perfect and know everything.
00:34:04
Speaker
but there hasn't been a roadmap. So it's like, well, we have all this expectation and men should just know this, but we can't take anything for granted. That's what I learned when I was in all these meetings. I'm like, wait, everybody in town wants a meeting with you. And it's two o'clock on a Tuesday and you want to ask me how to handle it if you think her shorts are too short before she leaves. Like, of course, like this is like, actually I can help you with this, but like, I'm really, you know, that was a lot of us.
00:34:31
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. We could talk about clothing especially. Yeah, for sure. It's one of my favorite chapters. Help. Yeah, don't worry about it as much as you do. It's not quite as loaded as you think it is. But yeah, I think that that's, you know, and with regard to, you know, I think so I think we're crossing a chasm right now. And I certainly think, you know, men like yourselves who are speaking about it so publicly,
00:35:00
Speaker
are kind of building that bridge. We're helping get this conversation out there. I think a big part of the broader conversation right now is not about men and men's needs as part of the broader cultural well-being conversation. It's kind of about everybody else.
00:35:21
Speaker
more. But men and fathers are such an important pillar, obviously. And there's still this expectation that you know everything or that you don't ask questions or that you keep it together because it's so hard for everybody else too. And so it's really important that actually everybody has tools and information and support.
00:35:41
Speaker
especially, you know, for instance, like with periods, that's really unchartered water. And the only thing that people were talking about for years is that, you know, the only thing that dads could possibly come up with that, you know, anybody could fathom would be like, well, are you on your period? Like, don't talk to me, you know, and that's, you know, instead of like, okay, if you ever want to talk to me about this, actually, I can, you know, your female caregivers, your parents might have
00:36:05
Speaker
your mom might have a better sense of the mechanics of that. But I understand that like, you know, you may need a manicure on a Tuesday, or, you know, your favorite snacks or whatever, like I can be there for you on that, you know? Yeah.
00:36:19
Speaker
I feel like there's a lot of grace that's out there if you show graciousness because I remember the first time going to the Walmart and I had my daughter with me. It was the fantastic day and we were going to get the products.
00:36:40
Speaker
And I smiled with it because she actually came to me, like, because I was working at the same school and she came to me. I was like, you didn't want to call mom. She's like, no, I was like, I was like, OK. So that's a trophy moment. That's if I handed out badges for this, you'd get that one.
00:37:00
Speaker
Oh, I was so proud. And so we went to Walmart and I realized that my pride was mistaken because I stepped into the pharmacy area. And I never had all of my security and my wisdom removed from me so quickly, as in that moment when I stepped into the aisle and I saw all of the different things.
00:37:24
Speaker
But like my thing is like, I'm not scared to ask a question. So I went and I asked the question and before you know it, there were like three or four ladies that were chuckling at me, but they were being so supportive. And then before you know it, I went home with way too much money's worth of products, but I wasn't going to go home with the wrong one because I knew that the right one was in there somewhere. But they were so helpful.
00:37:48
Speaker
And we came back and there was no traumatic thing there. And with me, it's a little unique because my oldest daughter, I wasn't in her life for her whole entire life. My kids, all of them are adopted, but she was adopted at the age of six.
00:38:07
Speaker
So there's stuff that has happened that I don't know about. There's developmental markers that I missed out on. So when we do have a developmental marker that's now in the teens, it's very, very important to me to know what to do. That's why like this type of resource, like I'm gobbling it up because you kind of
00:38:27
Speaker
I'm reading and I'm like, oh, there's me. Like I see, I see there's me. So it's okay for me to ask the question and it's okay. Like I have a social media presence and people, you know, log me as a really good dad on there. And so sometimes people ask me for advice and I can say.
00:38:45
Speaker
I don't know. I'm learning just like you every single day.
Long-term Impact of Father-Daughter Relationships
00:38:50
Speaker
And reading even just the intro of your book when you're talking about going and hiking with your dad. And I'm like, oh, and then you go, because I'm 30. And I'm like, what?
00:39:03
Speaker
I'm thinking it's a throw up. Like I literally, I'm watching this like a movie in my head, like, Oh man, she's like 14 years old and she's still kind of into her dad and it's going great. And I'm 30. And I'm like, wow. Like, like it hit me like, okay. So these sentiments and these moments that we're making right now, they're really, really, really important going down into, and, and I'm for sure like her dad's a good dad.
00:39:29
Speaker
but he could not have been perfect, right? And she's good. Like, look at her. She's doing quite well for herself. I'm like, okay. And she still likes him? She's 30. I'm like, okay, I have hope. Like, I don't have to, like, throw myself in the, um, what is that movie where, um, the giraffe, like, he goes and puts himself in the death pit because he's like, I'm sick. I'm in the death pit. Matt again.
00:39:55
Speaker
I'm like, I don't have to be like that. I don't have to put myself in the death pit because, you know, things are bumpy right now. No, I'm always careful to, you know, I, because there.
00:40:08
Speaker
You know, my dad is featured prominently in the book. I'm really close with him. When I started to actually look at the research around fathers and daughters, he was way ahead of his time. He was really willing to have these conversations. He did a lot right with regard to body positivity with some of these conversations around love and sexual well-being, especially from the beginning, guiding me on college stuff. I mean, he really stuck the landing on a lot of stuff.
00:40:33
Speaker
But he didn't stick the landing on everything. And, you know, I'm always careful. I'm like, it wasn't perfect. Sometimes it's still not perfect. And sometimes he'll still, I laugh because, you know, it's like, sometimes she'll shut you down. I'm like, call my dad. Like, I just turned 40. And, you know, he might have gone, you know, I might shut him down sometimes still. Like, we're, you know, we are our adolescent selves in a lot of ways.
00:40:55
Speaker
But you know it's like that's the other thing is like life isn't about perfection and our relationships aren't about perfection there about communication and they're about growing over time and trying and finding ways to relate to each other and learning from each other and taking those moments. Like this hike with my dad when I was thirty in matching outfits.
00:41:17
Speaker
and keeping it going that way. So yes, your daughter's gonna be good. I'm good, your daughter's gonna be good. It's like if you show up and you love your kids in the best way that you can, regardless of if you live in the house with them or if you're far away and you're doing it by FaceTime or if you're deployed or if you live out of state or if there's been a divorce or if you fell ill. As long as you're a consistent presence, that is what matters most.
00:41:44
Speaker
There's obviously providing, and there's all sorts of things that matter. But I think when it comes to, there's so much pressure, especially on men, to keep it all together, to be everything now. And there's a lot of pressure on moms, too, to do that, obviously. But that same pressure is on men.
Father's Presence on Mental Health
00:42:05
Speaker
You know, it's about just showing up consistently and talking with them and letting them know that you're there in the best ways that you can with the resources that you have at any given time.
00:42:15
Speaker
And I think that the consistency thing too is, is so important that that's really what most, you know, when I work with in a therapeutic sense and I'm working with like a teenage girl or a adolescent girl or late, a lesson young adult girl. Um, and even boys too, it's like boy or girl, it comes under the same thing. You know, when my parents there, were they present? Were they consistent? Not perfect. Um, but were they consistent? Did they show up? And that's something that.
00:42:43
Speaker
you know i either hear yeah they were or no they weren't um and both have consequences positive and negative on on on that impact especially when we think of what you know your dad and i think that's such a thing that i tend to hear when people in my office struggle with some level of
00:43:00
Speaker
mental health issues or difficulty is, now not all, but I say a good majority that is like, okay, unless you're like your father and it tends to be quite conflicted or conflictual, some pain there, some hurt there or some distance there. And so, you know, I think that that consistency is really, if we could just do that, be present imperfectly and be willing to ask questions like Nate said earlier or even Jason said or Sean's like,
00:43:28
Speaker
asking questions that we're learning as we go like I'm still learning we're all still learning and that's okay and almost like learning being willing to learn together and put the ego down and say it's okay to not have anything figured out and now for a short break
00:43:42
Speaker
So if you're looking for ways to support the show and my YouTube channel, head on over to buy me a copy.com forward slash therapy for dads. There you can make a one time donation or join the monthly subscription service to support all that I'm doing at the intersection of fatherhood and mental health.
00:43:58
Speaker
and all the proceeds go right back into all the work that I'm doing, into production, into continuing to grow the show to bring on new guests. So again, head on over to buymeacoffee.com forward slash therapy for dads. Thanks and let's get back to the show.
00:44:14
Speaker
And I think that is such a, such a challenging call for men to say, it's okay. Like just put the ego down and ask questions. Cause you know, like Jason, you could be, you know, in the middle of a, you know, tampon aisle or pad aisle and be like, Hey, I need help.
Humor in Learning and Fatherhood
00:44:28
Speaker
And, and that's okay. And that doesn't make you weak. It doesn't make you, you know, like an idiot. Um, now you might feel that. It makes you absorb it.
00:44:40
Speaker
That's good. And we'll end the show. You laid it out. Sean, any thoughts? Um, so again, I'm not going through a lot of this, but a lot that's, I guess, kind of parallel to this is, um,
00:45:07
Speaker
Travis, I think I said it to you when we talked the first time, there's just there's not a lot of resources for dads in general, like at all. And, you know, just, I guess, it's kind of nice in one sense is it's not nice, but so little is expected of dads. Like I take my
00:45:31
Speaker
daughter to like anywhere and there's like people come up to me like oh you're such a great I'm like you don't know me like thank you like you don't know you don't know I'm a good dad I'm just like grocery shopping with my daughter but no one says like you're such a great mom to my wife you know what I mean like it's like oh you're just doing what you should be but like it's kind of like this double-edged thing where there's
00:45:52
Speaker
There's no, the very little resources for, for dads and fathers. Um, so like podcast the book, this stuff is amazing. Um, but the, and the bar can be set pretty low. There's a kind of nice sweet spot in there where I watch my wife, who's an amazing mother try and navigate talking in like group settings about being a mom.
00:46:17
Speaker
and just gets hammered with negativity, just judgment. It's just brutal. And talking to other dads, like, I've never experienced that. So it's like, there's, I don't know if it's just because everything's growing, kind of like Kimmy said, like we're, it's building up as like, we're starting to get some resources. Men are starting to open up that like, Hey, I don't know what I'm doing. Like, like Jason said, and
00:46:44
Speaker
we somehow are in this nice place where there's minimal, if any, judgment. And it's just like, hey, like do the best you can, ask the questions, figure it out. So, I mean, it's not directly what we're talking about, but it's like the biggest takeaway I've noticed since becoming a dad and like being online and stuff like that and having this book and just more resources for dads come out.
Supportive Spaces for Fathers
00:47:10
Speaker
It's just so important to me. And with that, my wife has started reading the book because
00:47:15
Speaker
I was like, a lot of the things that Kimmy talks about in here, I'm like, you experienced in like a not great way, like her dad's great, but you know, he's from a different generation. And I'm like, you need to read this because like, you got some trauma that like, you're going to understand more. And she started reading it. So like, this should, this book is for everybody, not just dad's, but all that to say,
00:47:41
Speaker
the resources are coming and we're in a great spot as dads and fathers where we don't have a super judgmental approach or like view on everything from everyone else where we can be open and we have that opportunity to learn and be better.
00:48:02
Speaker
I think that's really sharp of you to even highlight that dichotomy because a lot of guys
00:48:13
Speaker
in social media are seen as, um, they can kind of mentally check out by being asked to do something. If they do it in the most, my son does this, he does it in the most incompetent way possible so that I don't ever ask him to do it again. Right. Yeah. And so I'm like,
00:48:35
Speaker
I thought about in my own journey, like I was I was a 29 year old man that didn't have to fold the clothes after the laundry was done because I didn't know how to do fold the clothes right. Did I really? Was I incapable? Like I built computers from scratch at that time and I was a music producer. Was I really incapable of folding a shirt the right way that would not irritate my wife?
00:49:03
Speaker
Yeah, I was capable of doing it. And she had a method that she wanted to be done. But I went ahead and checked out. And for a lot of times in society, when a guy is clueless, it's cute. When a mom is clueless, it's, how come you don't know how to do that? Oh my god. And the more men that are aware cognitively of that, the more that we can make a safe space
00:49:33
Speaker
for our mothers that are out there in general. And that's being a better dad as well. Being a better dad is not just being a better dad to your kids, but also creating a safe space for the moms that are out there that are trying.
Cultural Differences in Parenting
00:49:48
Speaker
Because I remember my wife learning how to do my daughter's hair. My wife is Caucasian. My daughter is an African-American, the oldest one.
00:49:58
Speaker
Initially, she got so many negative things said to her, like, oh, you don't know how to do her hair. Do you know how to braid? Do you know how to do this? And even people that were helping were very judgmental. And me, I'm putting sunscreen on Lillian, on my youngest, who's Caucasian. And oh my god, you're such a good dad. Like, never mind, I just rubbed the whole thumbful in her eyeball.
00:50:27
Speaker
Yay me. So like, Sean, being aware of that, it's just good to be seen. So when somebody else is in pain or they're being hurt by society, the fact that you see that, that's incredible. And I think that that is something that is very appreciated by anybody that's around you. And it's not so much being a dad, but it's very useful and helpful.
00:50:56
Speaker
It's getting away from the us versus them mentality that our world is so enthralled with, left, right, us, them. No, it's a team. It's about lifting everybody up. It's acknowledging mom's dad, all of everyone doing, hey, in fact, my wife had a story.
00:51:16
Speaker
I agree, like not everyone comments on mom's, but my wife had, she shared about a random lady at a grocery store came up to her and she had all three kids and trying to shop, you know, which is mayhem with a six four and like one and a half year old.
00:51:31
Speaker
It's nuts. But a sweet lady came up and just said, just kind of compliment, versus just saying, what are you doing? But it was, I think, probably another lady came up and just said, you're doing such a great job. Didn't know her at all. And she told me the story in tears. I'm like, yeah, of course you're doing an amazing job. It's just, you're right. We don't...
00:51:50
Speaker
I think we're not commenting enough on what's expected of moms versus what's expected. It's like we need to shift that and it's going to take, I think you're right, us dads doing that as well. It's a team. It's back and forth. It's not, it's working together and growing together and.
Encouraging Each Other as Parents
00:52:06
Speaker
So I even try to, you know, not being creepily, if I see mom struggling or something out, like, hey, you're doing a great job. Like, I'll just, you know, being mindful too of like, you know, my presence of like, you're doing a great, you know, great job. And just trying to like acknowledge what people are doing. And just, especially if I see, I could tell like it's been a rough day or something. I'm like, you're doing an amazing job. Like, you know, keep going, you know. And, and.
00:52:30
Speaker
And I'm wondering, you know, as I'm thinking about this, and this is a, you know, a little more open vulnerable question, but what, like, what question, you know, you think about the book or maybe it's not in the book, but what talk are you most nervous about having with your daughters?
Nervous Talks with Daughters
00:52:49
Speaker
What's the talk that you think or the question you think is like, Oh man, that, I don't know. Like I'm feeling a bit nervous. I'm on, that's the one I'm not really sure how it's going to go. Like what's that question for you guys?
00:53:03
Speaker
There's like 14 of them in that book. Thank you. I'm like, what's that one question really? The one that bubbles to the surface. The topic. Yeah. I'm sure I throw off for me too. But what's the one? It's like, oh, that one, you know, like pick one.
00:53:26
Speaker
Honestly, mine, mine is the, the, it's not the sex talk. It's just sex in general, because unfortunately, when like, and Dan Cummins is a comedian, he's extremely crass, but he's awesome. And I love him. He's very dark, but he talks about how, how men will talk about their boys going to college and what they're going to do there. And then he's like, well, we should do the same for our daughters. And the moment he says that, like every guy in the room goes, Oh, no, no, no, no, no.
00:53:53
Speaker
And I think that for me, having a daughter that's 16, she's been so kind to me, even though she does say vicious things. In this realm, I've been like, oh, I don't know how I handle that. But she's not really into boys. She's like, I don't know why these girls are so boy crazy. And I'm like, I love you so much. Just stay that way, right?
00:54:17
Speaker
But being able to look at a 19-year-old son and my 16-year-old daughter and trying to have the same actual conversation with them and not making it like, go get them, son. Hey, you should stay a virgin until you're married, daughter, because you want to wear white and you're white. It's stuff that is definite head trash from my upbringing.
00:54:43
Speaker
no matter what religious background you have, I grew up in the church, it's always going to be there. And that's the way it was for me growing up. That's the thing. And the hard part is guys who have lots of sex with lots of women are studs or however you want to put it. And girls are now sluts. And that's such a horrible way to lift this up for guys and tear this down for women. It pushes them down. And I'm not saying I want any of my kids to have
00:55:11
Speaker
multiple partners and be crazy like I don't I don't want that for them and I loved how you put this in the book because you said like the things to say or like this is something that you can like you don't have to put an age limit on it in the sense of like I mean something obviously
00:55:27
Speaker
For me, I'm going, yeah, don't do it just yet. But at the same time, being able to say, this happens in a committed relationship.
Difficulties Discussing Sex with Daughters
00:55:34
Speaker
And what I love about my wife is she's always said that. She gets crass at times. So she's like, yeah, don't kick the tires. Take it for a test drive. But she also is like, this is not something that you need to do this before you're going to just lock it down and say, this is who I'm going to be with for the rest of my life.
00:55:52
Speaker
because what if you just never know and that sometimes would like tear at my soul because I'm like, Oh, I don't know if I like that. But for me, she has enabled me to talk to my daughter more about it being more like this is a committed relationship where you are you're together. It's not just
00:56:11
Speaker
you know, hey, we got totally drunk and had one night stands and all that because I wouldn't want my sons to do that either. And so I did actually like the way you put that in the book, but that is actually the conversation that has been the hardest for me because it has nothing to do with anything other than how I viewed or how I was raised and girls are not allowed to do that. And not that boys were, but it was more okay for boys. And I'm like,
00:56:34
Speaker
Well, if boys are doing that, who are they doing it with? You know, like, how is that happening? You can have multiple partners as a boy, but as a girl, you can't like, so what is this? And I can't say I've done a great job at that. But that has been a that was the scariest one for me to have with my daughter. Because I'm like, I still don't want you to do it, though. Like, can you still not?
00:56:55
Speaker
But that was actually the major, but I loved how you put it in there. I literally, again, it was my validation for me going, okay, we're kind of on the right track here. We're not really screwing her up too bad. We're literally saying, this is something that's wonderful and great and part of a committed relationship. That's the boundaries we're gonna put on that for you is to say, that's what you want. Don't do it till you're 30.
00:57:22
Speaker
There's so much I could say about that topic. I talk about it a little bit in the book that, you know, by trade, I've been a sex educator for nearly two decades, started when I was in college. And, you know, I've seen kind of the gamut of sex ed. And I also talk to a lot of parents. I teach my curriculum is called love class. I actually am just about to launch welcome to love class on Instagram and TikTok, which is it's actually launching this weekend, which is my student focused content on this topic. And,
00:57:51
Speaker
I'm a Californian. I live in Texas. I teach at schools all across the country, and I talk to parents about this topic all across the country. And, you know, regardless of religion, regardless of upbringing, everybody wants their kids to be safe.
00:58:09
Speaker
They want their kids to be OK and in loving relationships that reach their potential. And they want as parents, they want their kids to talk to them first if something goes awry. And those are the main things. Those are the ties that bind. So regardless of where you're coming from or religion, it is so, you know, Nate, I completely understand what you're talking about. And I've talked to so many people in the same place where
00:58:37
Speaker
It's like, yeah, I don't want you to do it right now. I want you to wait. And then there's this guilt, like, well, am I in the, you know, am I in the old days if I'm doing that? Well, one of the cool things about, for me, about teaching sex ed is like, I actually teach in a variety of religious contexts across the spectrum.
Research on Committed Relationships
00:58:55
Speaker
I teach in very conservative schools. I teach in very liberal schools. By the research, when people are engaging in sexual activity,
00:59:04
Speaker
in loving, committed relationships when they are a little bit older, the satisfaction, the safety, the experience is higher and less regretful. So even by the research, you can be backed up saying that. It's not just a religious thing. So even if it's in your heart that you're like, I just can't handle my daughter doing this at a young age, you can also rest assured that the research will back you up. What we want to avoid is the shaming.
00:59:33
Speaker
Right. And any of this blood shaming. And there are, you know, it's still a double standard. We would like for it not to be. And those of us who teach it and those of us who are working with young people on romantic relationships and busting stereotypes want girls to not be bound by these old school stereotypes and power dynamics, but they exist still. And when we're talking about girl talking with girls about this topic, it's about
00:59:59
Speaker
you know, teaching, telling them the facts and helping them understand like how they can create ideal partnerships. And this is part of it. And so you can come at them with the facts and talking with them about the facts actually isn't going to make them do it sooner or more often. Yeah. Because if they have more information than they're not, I mean, this is a different podcast, but I've been teaching this for a long time and what
01:00:28
Speaker
I can really see the trends and I see the research reflected in how anonymous questions have evolved over time. What is true always is that kids
01:00:39
Speaker
are very impacted by broader culture and media. And if we, as the most caring adults in their worlds, are not upfront with them about the real stuff as we know it, they're only going to take it in from culture. So we need to be, we need to be a grounding sound board there, sounding board.
01:00:59
Speaker
I apologize. Sorry that Jason, I was actually going to say too, that part of, part of that from our, like in our house is also trying to, I know it's about fathers and daughters is about trying to look at boys, my boys and going, this is not what we, like, we don't just run around and do this. Like, I know that culture is going to tell you that's okay. And there's plenty of guys are gonna be like, yeah, what's your list? Or you're like, like for body count, I'm like, seriously?
01:01:26
Speaker
That is not responsible manhood either. So guys that do that, they're acting like boys. And if you want to be a man, then you don't do that either. You are loving and respectful and kind and committed as well. And that makes it safe for
01:01:45
Speaker
for you and for her. And so like, yeah, definitely trying to trying to like level it up for women not saying, Oh, yeah, just go out and be crazy. But looking at boys and saying, don't do that. That's not respectful either. That's not how we want to live. Because it tears the way I told my oldest is it tears at your soul. The more you Yeah, the more you do that, it tears at your soul. Don't do that to yourself. You know, that kind of thing. I so I that one of the things and I could go on about this movie short here, but
01:02:13
Speaker
One of the sound bites that I find to be very effective and that often like, you know, all the guys are like, you know, I'm like, look, because I get a lot of anonymous questions like, how do you do this? And how do you do that? And how do you make this happen? And how do you please her? And I'm like, well, this is not a how to class, not that kind of teacher. That's not what I do here. But I'm going to tell you.
01:02:34
Speaker
that for people who are good at this, people who want to be good in this area of life, the way people actually get good is by being in strong communication with loving reciprocal partners.
01:02:47
Speaker
And that's how you figure out what feels good to you and what feels good to other people. And that's what this is really about because, you know, there are a lot of forces that be, you know, kids are using porn, boys, especially for sex ed, the total nightmare. It's a huge worry. Experts across the board are like, you want to know what to worry about? Worry about that for all of our kids. That's very scary. And so it's just like when we flip it and we're more positive, I'm like, you want this to be a great part of your life? This is how that actually works.
01:03:17
Speaker
Um, and then it's like, Oh wow. It's like, no, actually like we aren't trying to ruin your fun. We actually want this to be a wonderful part of your life when the time is right. Um, and this is what we know, but it's really hard to articulate because when this topic comes up, everyone's like.
01:03:33
Speaker
My wife is so, like, my wife is so good at that. Like, when we had to talk to our oldest about it, and I was kind of like, huh, because I came under. Like, I mean, if you could raise a kid in a chastity belt, that was me. Like, my mom and my mom was an evangelist. My dad was a pastor. It was
01:03:53
Speaker
Like, I would celebrate until my wedding day. Like, my dad would preach and say that I would celebrate from the altar. Like, I'd be studying that. And all the ladies in church would be like, dad, stop. And so we had a very different approach. And I had so much learning to do when it came to the cultural aspect of this topic. And I've learned a lot. And my wife is.
Teaching Consent and Respect
01:04:22
Speaker
She's like, this is one of the most beautiful things that you will ever experience in your life. And then she goes ahead and gives the context. And the way that I can have the conversation, I'll say, like, everything's connected. I'm like, everything is connected. So we'll be sitting down. And we'll, since the egg has been cracked already with my wife, we'll sit down and we'll be watching a movie. And there'll be a scene in which a guy is treating a young lady a certain way.
01:04:51
Speaker
or you'll hear something in a dialogue and my daughter will go, and I'll be like, let's talk about that. What gives you the ache about that? And so we'll have a conversation and I see like.
01:05:04
Speaker
Um, being safe and being respected as a person is that's what I want to bring out of the whole thing. It's not just this utility of body parts that are doing whatever, what have you. This, this is a whole entire person that has a whole life, a whole history that you're connecting with in this very intimate way.
01:05:27
Speaker
And you need to be sure that you're safe in that situation, that you see this guy, like, he's driving behind this young lady after one day and he's following. That's not safe. Did he give some red flags earlier? And so we have these conversations so that I know that she'll have that sensibility, almost like that spider sense when she's out there and she's talking to somebody just in a platonic way. She'll know, like, from that
01:05:55
Speaker
You know, I kind of like this guy. I saw the way he talked to another young lady, or I saw that a young lady's dress was coming up and he kind of put his coat over it.
01:06:06
Speaker
Well, I'm not looking for a saint, whatever. But if it's somebody that's looking for consent that respects a woman's whole personhood, that's what I'm trying to bring across to my daughter. That's important. And sometimes there's some certain religious tenets that don't reaffirm that. They don't affirm a woman's personhood.
01:06:30
Speaker
And it's very jarring for a lot of religious people. And I'm willing to step right into the middle of it and say, yeah, that's that's jacked up. What do you do about it? Because how are you going to how are you going to speak to this young lady's agency of herself? But you're telling her that she doesn't have it in this area. So it's so important to be able to have those conversations. And in the way that you you lay it out in the book, like it's not
01:06:59
Speaker
it shouldn't be scary even though you might go into it like as a guy I get it Nate because that's that's our reflex it's people like no
01:07:14
Speaker
Offline, I could tell you a lot of stories dads told me in interviewing about my book where they really went wrong, but they're not for YouTube, they're for coffee. And I try to be mindful in my own self as to not paint all these boys. They're all dirtbags because they're not. They're really not.
01:07:35
Speaker
And some of them are just as dumb as I was when I was their age. At the beginning of the book, you talk about reading Cosmo and Seventeen and stuff. This is where I went. I wanted to know how girls thought. So I would read these things, and I'd know what embarrassed them. I'd know what thing. Oh, that's mortifying? I thought that was a joke. No, it's not. So now I'm a dad, I know that she's not going to take that the way how I think, oh, I'm going to throw this joke about.
01:08:04
Speaker
You gaining weight. No, no, no, no, we're not going to touch it. Yeah. It's the same with clothes. Like people are there's certain topics where people are like, well, what do I say? What do I don't say? And I'm like, OK, so whatever you're thinking.
01:08:20
Speaker
don't say that thing. Whatever that thing is, just don't say that thing. At least not right away. Like definitely shock that comment with the other like caregivers in your life before you come back and say it. So that's a really good rule of thumb is like when it comes to clothing or sex or anything, if there's anything where you're like, I don't know, this is what I'm
Understanding Daughters' Perspectives
01:08:40
Speaker
thinking. Yeah, not that thing.
01:08:42
Speaker
Let's get a flow chart. What you said about clothes, too. It's like, I'm like, why is it that this is honestly back in the day or like just being like raised with just boys? It was never a thought like, oh, yeah, well, girl, they shouldn't have like short whatever this or that. And I went to Christian school and like the guys we played shirts and skins and I'm saying that girls should just take their clothes off either. But at the same time, I felt like like the the.
01:09:09
Speaker
uh the dress codes are so skewed to make girls feel like they're not allowed to do stuff because boys are going to think things like they're responsible like we got a responsibility to teach our sons that like what you do and like how you think and what you do is
01:09:25
Speaker
That's on you man like you don't get to blame her like blame her for that. I had this conversation with my wife today I was like hey when you were younger did you do this thinking boys will like this or did you just be like oh that's cute and she's like no I was like this is cute I like the way I look in it.
01:09:42
Speaker
We still do that. Yeah. And as a guy, I had no idea. I'm like, oh my gosh, she looks so hot. And like that was what I thought. That was so wrong. Like it wasn't it's not like it's not for you, dude. She liked it. Like she wanted to wear it. And being a dad trying to be like, yeah.
01:09:59
Speaker
not so psycho about what she's wearing. And just knowing that if I see a guy looking there like that, I'd be like, hey, I'm her dad and I will kill you. It's okay to feel that in your heart, Nate. Oh, yeah. It's funny, because I'll say this, I mean, like, there's so much love for my daughter, specifically, like, love and safety, followed by so much violence.
01:10:23
Speaker
The flow chart, don't say that thing. Right, exactly. It's followed by so much violence, it's like, I will put everyone around you. I don't know what to do, but I try to hold that back. I love you so much, and then just shut up, you know?
01:10:37
Speaker
But it's the same as if you're Sean, your daughter is going to draw a picture, and somebody's going to be like, ew, that's ugly. It's the same reaction. Don't you dare. How did his head get bounced off the desk? Sean, go ahead, Sean. Yeah, that section came on clothing. Because again, like I said at the start, these are all things that as soon as I found out I was having girls, I was super excited. And then I was like,
01:11:06
Speaker
Oh, man. What do I do about all this stuff? And then that's why I said like this book was just like, it just like got rid of anxiety. But the part that like, I remember I was running because I was I was running and listening and it's like,
01:11:22
Speaker
they don't dress that way for the reason you think they do. They're not dressing that way, like Nate said, for the boy at school most often. They're dressing that way because they like how it looks, or they're watching a TV show that their favorite character dresses like this, and it makes them feel great. And then going into how to talk to them about it, which is like the blow chart of being like, why you dress like that? That's crazy.
01:11:51
Speaker
to being like, Oh, like, what do you like about this outfit? And like, understanding what things they like and why they like them and truly understanding it so that you're looking at what they're wearing through more their perspective than yours. And I was like, Oh, yeah, this makes so much more sense. Like,
01:12:12
Speaker
Yeah. And again, that was like a perfect example of where I was like, oh, deep breath. Well, also, you know, Shawn, your daughters are younger. What's interesting, I always say this book is for fathers of teenage and soon to be teenage daughters, because so much of the mindset starts early, you know, especially clothing is a good one, right? Like clothing for girls and clothing for boys is different. Like, you know, are the bathing suits more revealing? And, you know, for one. And it's true, it's just
01:12:42
Speaker
But I think we can all take a deep breath. One thing I think is really interesting in this conversation is, yes, we need to teach boys how to treat women better. That is our generation's responsibility.
01:12:56
Speaker
We're not there yet. So with that being said, like, this is an unpopular opinion in my field sometimes, but I'm like, I think you can also be real with girls. It's like, okay, you can wear that. But like, just know you might get this kind of attention and this is how you have to deal with it and give her a tool and be like, you don't have to take it. Or if you feel unsafe or, you know, you're beautiful, you look amazing.
01:13:19
Speaker
look over your shoulder, just keep looking over your shoulder. It's about situational awareness. And I think that we, it's not about slut shaming. It's not about like, this is too revealing. And you know, you can also, and I say, you know, you workshop this approach with the other adults in your life because fathers tend to panic about clothing a lot and overly.
01:13:38
Speaker
Um, so you have to workshop your approach a little bit before you go for it because I have seen it happen. Um, I did go to a, you know, I actually happened to be Jewish, but I went to Catholic school growing up.
01:13:51
Speaker
and definitely a number of religious Christian schools growing up. And I definitely saw people leaving their house and they're like, bye mom and dad. And the door would close and people would literally strip off like layers of clothing before they got in the car. Like you want to be realistic. Like we need to be realistic about like what people are going to do. And we want them to talk to us. We have to be realistic. If we're not, then they're not going to talk to us and they're going to do it anyway.
01:14:19
Speaker
Um, but yeah, the clothing thing is super interesting and it is about taking it off of them. You know, our own fear. Um, you know, I'm talking like I'm a father, but you know, as a parent, um, you know, it's like our own fear of what, what they're wearing. It's not as loaded for them. They're just like, I feel awesome. I want to wear this. And also like, this is what's being marketed to me and this is what I think is flattering. Um,
01:14:45
Speaker
But you can definitely, yeah, you just, it's, it's manageable, but it's definitely a panic button. I've actually, I've actually said like, look, all of this stuff that I do comes from this. I want to keep you safe. So don't, don't view what I'm saying is I'm trying to control you or I'm trying to push down your personality or any of that stuff. Just understand that when I, like, when I see it, my, my initial knee jerk response is.
01:15:11
Speaker
OK, like you said, there's going to be this outfit. You feel great in it and it's revealing whatever. But like this is going to draw attention. That's what I'm trying to keep you safe from because those guys that are going to give you that attention that way, in my mind or problem.
01:15:27
Speaker
And so as a dad, I'm going, I'm just trying to keep you safe. And I'm just trying to like, but the same thing is all it ends up doing. And I mean, I've had that conversation, but doing that by like saying, no, you can't wear that or all that. Like you said, one of my closest friends in high school, that's exactly what she would do. Her parents were so strict and she'd come, she'd come out, like she'd get to school, go to the bathroom and totally change into something that they didn't want her to wear. And that's the last thing I want. So I'd rather just be able to have that conversation and say, look, I'm just trying to keep you safe.
01:15:56
Speaker
So just be aware that this is the kind of stuff that goes on and just know I'm not trying to push you down. I'm really just trying to keep you safe. And they can't argue with you on safety. That's one of the things I talk about in the book. It really lowers the temperature of some of these higher stakes and higher emotion conversations when you're just like, look, I may not get this totally right. This may feel kind of awkward. I got to talk to you about this because I'm your dad and I need to keep you safe. That's my job.
01:16:26
Speaker
And so that's where I'm coming from. I love you very much. Sorry if I stumble here. Sorry if I make us both want to disintegrate into thin air, but you know, I want to keep you safe and they can't argue with it. And that kind of goes for everything. It works, you know, and I think it's also what we were talking about at the beginning about kind of leveling with them. You know, it's just like, we just bring it to the facts. This isn't about emotion. This is just straight facts. And then we can figure out what to do with it.
01:16:54
Speaker
But so often, I mean, I'm, to be honest, I'm just obsessed with the faith based aspects of these conversations across religions, because that, especially at a time where people are talking about religion more, I feel like and have more forums to talk about religion and its impact on them and their values and their perspectives. It's like everybody, there are so many cultural forces, religion included, that make people feel like, can I say this? Can I not say it? Can I say?
01:17:20
Speaker
It's like, no, we just, you know what? It doesn't matter who you are, where you come from. Everybody wants to keep their kids safe. So let's just start there. Everybody wants their kid to be safe.
Relaxed Conversations on Sensitive Topics
01:17:30
Speaker
Everybody wants their kid to talk to them. And like, that's what I think everyone's paradigm needs to be. When I speak at schools in different geographic regions, different religions, different political affiliations or leanings, people, everybody is just like,
01:17:45
Speaker
We can all relax. I'm like, yeah, we can all relax. Like everybody just like, let's take down the tone of this. It's okay. And I'm a sex ed teacher talking to like 300 parents at a time. And everyone's like, Oh, thank goodness for you. And I'm like, who knew? You know, just like, I just want everybody to know, like, the safety thing is so important. It's the great unifier. Right.
Evolving Values in Parenting
01:18:05
Speaker
It's, it's such a, um,
01:18:08
Speaker
It's such a difficult thing to be from my generation because I'm, I'm born in 78. So I've been from like super conservative just because we're old. And then we went into like when the religion just got into super high purity, like all of this stuff. And I got marched right through it, like, okay, this is what we're doing. And then I was an adult and then I was a camp counselor.
01:18:37
Speaker
And now I got my own kid. I'm like, okay, cool. And now my kid's 14. And I'm like, so it takes so much.
01:18:48
Speaker
It takes so much purpose to have these conversations and not have them to be congealed from all of this stuff that would have been stamped into my brain from way back then. I
Accountability in the Internet Age
01:19:02
Speaker
have to like hit the brakes so many times of what I'm saying because a lot of times I won't say what I...
01:19:09
Speaker
literally like I really understand and believe it'll be because something was repeated to me so many times. And so that's the first thing that pops into my mind. I'm like, wait, nope, that's hurtful. That doesn't work now. So we've seen like, I've seen so many versions of parenting and talking to kids and educating them about this subject in particular about safety and clothing and all this stuff from modesty to now where I'm like,
01:19:36
Speaker
Oh, you don't have to be in charge of this male's libido projection. There's been a whole more than one decade where girls were taught this. You are responsible for that boy's purity.
01:19:53
Speaker
based on what you're, and if you're showing him a little like, you're making him sin or whatever the word is. Stumble. Stumble. We're making him stumble and you're looking at the youth leader and he looks like he's stumbling a little bit too, but he's 30 something. And I'm like,
01:20:10
Speaker
And now, I mean, we're at the age now where people are getting called on it because now everything's on the Internet and you can't delete anything. Like what you guys and you put it out there. So there's people say cancel, but I say high accountability. So people have to be accountable for their actions and the things that they say. But I'm
Open Conversations to Avoid Judgment
01:20:31
Speaker
here like, OK.
01:20:33
Speaker
I want you to be free just like, because I want you to be able to express yourself, but also like Nate said, like these guys are a problem. So I want you to have the tools, like Kimberly said, to know how to deal with this issue. So if there's a certain level of an issue that's coming to you of this negativity and you think you can handle it, this is what you need to do. If it gets to a breaking point that is starting to affect your mental wellbeing, that's safety now.
01:21:03
Speaker
And not saying that these guys are causing you to constrain yourself, but it's either you have to remove yourself from the situation where they're in your environment or you're going to have to safeguard yourself in another way. And it sucks because we're not there yet. Right. And they're not there yet. Yeah, we're not there yet. I think one other aspect of this conversation that
01:21:27
Speaker
You know, kids have called me on it. They're like, well, you know, we should all wait and don't know why you're saying that. I'm like, it's not, you know, I think that we, when we have these conversations with kids, we also have to leave room that like, maybe something is going on with them or maybe something has happened. And when we say, when we set like,
01:21:43
Speaker
It's important in the language to make it as open as possible so that they never feel like, okay, well, have I already disappointed them? Because kids don't want to disappoint us. And this is a big section of the disappointment attachment for kids, like this particular area. And so it's important to, I would just say, I think this is what we're all saying, it's important to keep the language as
01:22:13
Speaker
loving and open and factual and, you know, nurturing as possible just in case there's something else. So we can guide them, but we also have to control for the fact that maybe there's something else already going on. And hopefully
Listening Over Fixing Issues
01:22:26
Speaker
it's not, but sometimes it is.
01:22:31
Speaker
Yeah, this is a big one. I'm not there yet either. So I'm I think I'm with Sean just listening to you guys. And now I have had some of these conversations with again, some teens and stuff I've worked with and in my office in a therapeutic sense, but
01:22:47
Speaker
It's a it's a little easier for me to have the conversation with them I would say emotionally because I'm I'm not their parent and as I think about my my daughter who one day will be an adult, you know, I'm just Hearing from you guys is helpful to hear where you are. And definitely what I've thought I'm sure Stan's not Sean is also thought this the same thing is like oh, yeah that's gonna be a big one and how do we how do we talk about that and I think the thing that I
01:23:10
Speaker
I keep coming back to that one that Kimmy talked about in the book and that I hear time and time again and just therapeutically is it's it's about being present and connected and open and a lot of listening I think and from teens what I hear is listening first I think adults don't listen enough I think
01:23:31
Speaker
It's about listening and then also saying, okay, with the older kids, it's like, how do you want me to respond here? We were talking about this, Nate, in your comments the other day. We were in conversation Nate's social comment about how important it is to just say, okay, they don't want you to, they don't want it fixed all the time. You know, they don't necessarily, and that's a big dad thing. Dads are great at fixing, but girls especially don't want you to fix it. Why?
01:23:59
Speaker
I'm in here with that one too. Yeah, you're so
Being Emotionally Present
01:24:01
Speaker
good at that. It just doesn't apply here. Yeah, I do that with my wife. Yeah. And it's like, now we have this rule. It's like, all right, are you looking for support? Like, what are you looking for? What do you want out of this? Because that's the direction I'm going to take, because instinct is always like, fix, fix, which generally makes things so much worse. Yeah. I still, I say exactly what you say, and then I mess up every time.
01:24:34
Speaker
I think it's like, you know, you don't have to be perfect there. It's so important. The main thing is that you're talking and like I said it before. It's like they may not listen to you. They may get mad at you. They can hear you. And if they know that you're trying, that is so important. Even if you're, you know, messing up, you're still trying.
01:24:53
Speaker
My oldest did actually verbalize that just straight up to me It was something that had happened and she was crying and she was talking to me and I was sitting there and I think she could tell That I was like building the Lego of success while she was talking to me I had this it's gonna be done as soon as she says if she gives me a break I'm gonna put the piece and she goes
01:25:18
Speaker
And that sometimes I know you know how to fix everything, but sometimes I don't want you to give me a solution. I just want you to just hear me. And I was I was gobsmacked. And she was just straight as ever, like with so much conviction. And she was crying, which makes me want to buy her a pony. And I'm just like.
01:25:39
Speaker
I'm like, Oh, man, I do that. I'm like, I do that. And it's so easy to do it. It's super duper easy. And it's super hard to because you want to you want to stop the hurt. But but sometimes she just wants to share the hurt with somebody else that cares. And so when when she does that, I'm just like,
01:26:00
Speaker
I want to just cry with you then. I might not make myself cry because that might make you uncomfortable, but I'm here with you in this moment. And that's helped. And that's one of those things, Kimberly, you put in the book. Sometimes you just need to hear it over and over and over again. And me as a dad, I need to continue to hear it so that I can not try to fix it.
01:26:24
Speaker
Yeah, it's about
Sharing Wisdom vs. Advice
01:26:25
Speaker
being seen. And you can always go back. You know, it's about being seen and met where they are and that creates that, going back to the question, is it creates safety, right? If, you know, they feel safe by being seen and that kind of, and that's the same thing with our, with partners, the same thing is the fix is often listening and meeting them where they are. So that's often the solution.
01:26:44
Speaker
And when I do couples therapy, that's often, hey, that's the first thing often that I teach a lot of the men, more so is just listen, just listen to what she's saying, be present, ask her what she needs, that's the fix. Now, we may get to you fixing it differently later, but in the moment, and same thing I think with teens and daughters is the same thing, is just listen and validate and then you're gonna have the opportunity to say what you need to say, over and over and over again.
01:27:16
Speaker
Yeah, without them maybe listening to you until they're 28. But it's still really important to give the advice. Well, it's not even advice. I would say wisdom. I think it's more than advice. Wisdom. Yeah. You know, definitely wisdom. It is. I mean, I would say I wisdom comes up a lot, right? And it comes up for me with men, especially who are like, well, what do I know about this?
01:27:42
Speaker
And I'm like, you know so much about this. Like, even if you feel like love is a big one, love is my favorite topic to teach. And I talked to this, I have a course on it for parents. And I'm like, you may not feel like you have wisdom, but you totally do. Like, it's just we take all of us in all of our fields, and we take so much of our knowledge for granted. And so much of what we know and learn is applicable for our teenagers. So
01:28:11
Speaker
So you have the wisdom. They're just going to talk to you like you don't. That doesn't mean that you don't have it. They're not going to let you know that you are. You're not going to get it from them. You're going to have to just text me and be like, I still have wisdom, right? And I'm going to be
Hopes for Future Parent-Child Relationships
01:28:27
Speaker
like, yeah, I promise.
01:28:32
Speaker
And I'm wondering as we kind of come to a close for you guys, and then I'll all kind of close this out, but you know, you could, you pick question that you want to answer one either. What's the hope? You know, let's say your daughter's now 30. What are you hoping for in your relationship with her? Or you could say, how would you, how would you get this into the dad's hands? Like, how would you pitch it to a guy who you think could benefit from it?
01:29:00
Speaker
I'm literally gonna be like, bro, here. I mean, seriously, like, here. I finished it, I'm gonna need it back so you can get your own copy. Do yourself a favor. Like, that's what it really is. Do yourself a favor. As far as the hope, honestly, at 30, I've said this before and I think I've seen it in posts. I want my kids, all of them,
01:29:25
Speaker
I want them to have those moments in life where they say, like, instead of like, what will dad say? They'll say, I need to call my dad. And so for my, my daughters, like I just want them to, I want them to want to call. I want them to want to talk. Um, that's, that's really where it is. I want them to want to talk to me. I look forward to.
01:29:47
Speaker
And by the time my kids are 30, I look forward to telling them that I believe in them when they come to me with things that are going on in their life and telling them that I trust how smart they are and how much they've learned and who they are in the way that they raised their child. And I'm just going to love watching it. And yeah, I'm going to laugh at them when they do stuff. And I'll tell them about how I have to laugh at my own self. Remember when I did the same thing with you?
01:30:17
Speaker
I look forward to stuff like that. As far as this book, I think it is one of the most important books for a husband and a wife or two partners, however you frame it, to go through it together.
01:30:34
Speaker
because one
Value of Parenting Books for Couples
01:30:36
Speaker
person may be more informed on the experiences of the book while the other one is kind of getting handheld through it. So one person may only need to read it once and the other one might have to do it twice. But it gives a different voice to the experiences that we've all had and it gives a different perspective for us to even view our partners in and be like, oh,
01:31:02
Speaker
Man, I should have never said that. And yeah, it will help your marriage, everybody. It will. It will help your marriage. It totally will help your marriage. There's a section in the back called Father's Asking Questions that's largely about partner dynamics. Yeah. For me, man, 30 years. That's a long ways away from me.
01:31:27
Speaker
Yeah, I hope my relationship with my daughters is, you know, focused around them making decisions and living their lives for them and nothing to do with me other than wanting support and love, but not trying to make decisions based on what I think. And I hope that
01:31:48
Speaker
Um, just based off my journey and my relationship with my parents, I hope by that age, we have transitioned a little more into that. This is just a very, like, I'm just a very important person in their life. I'm still dad, but I'm also a friend and somebody that they can talk to about anything. And that, you know, our relationship again, is at a point where they're living their lives for themselves. And I'm just there as.
01:32:18
Speaker
just to provide wisdom when they ask it, uh, as their friend and their father. So I don't know. There's three and three weeks. So we'll see what happens in the night. Three, three. Yeah.
Supportive Parental Presence
01:32:37
Speaker
And then the book itself, um, I've already told a couple of my buddies that have daughters, the same thing. I'm like,
01:32:44
Speaker
I'm like, do you stress about all this stuff? And they're like, yeah, man, all the time. I'm like, okay, you gotta read this book, because I'm like, I know it's a long ways away, because all my buddy's kids are around the same way, just mine. And I'm like, I know this stuff we're not gonna deal with for a while, but I'm like, it's just, get it off your brain. Just know that there's ways through this, and you're gonna be good, and you don't have, it's not as big of a deal as you think it is. I'm like, just read the book. So that's my pitch.
01:33:13
Speaker
I think I'm the same. As far as the book, I steal from all you guys. I've talked about this so much just on everywhere. You need to buy this book. It's for everybody. Giving it to guys, gifting it to them. Thankfully for Amazon, it's easy to do that and they have no idea how it got there. It's just like it shows up.
01:33:33
Speaker
I should read this so definitely it's it really is I really can't cannot stop talking how much I appreciate this book and for Kimmy reaching out to me in fact she reached out to me guys she she called me she called me so and that was really cool I kind of it was you know and obviously an Instagram it goes into that you know you have to go in and it's the whatever that the request of like you know all the junk you get
01:33:59
Speaker
And I'm like, oh, okay. And then we start talking and I'm so glad that she did because it's making me a better dad already. And
Children's Self-Identity and Values
01:34:09
Speaker
I get to share this information with others and got to have you guys in on it too. Like, I mean, this is the trickle effect. And then you guys get to share it with your dad friends and mom friends and all those things. And all your following, people that follow you and look to you on the social media that we call Instagram and TikTok.
01:34:26
Speaker
Um, and, and it gets to get in the hands of hopefully even, you know, soon to be dads of like, wow, there's something out there for me, you know, and I get to read this, this book and, uh, with future daughters. And, um, so that's one thing with the book. I love it. I can't.
01:34:42
Speaker
stop talking how much I love it and then as far as my daughter when she's 30 I know she's you know only gonna be two but this is really for both all my all my kids and it's something that I hear you know there's themes I hear as a therapist all the time about what kids really needed and what they needed to hear and the shame that they feel and often that I'm working with them to kind of overcome and heal from
01:35:07
Speaker
And the thing I'm hoping that, you know, I know we're talking about daughters, but my boys, but for my daughter, is that she knows that she has value, that she's enough, that she is important, that she's loved. And that she's worth, right? That she has worth.
01:35:24
Speaker
uh and with that knowing that like that's gonna give her own self-identity that she doesn't have to find a bunch of crappy ways and try and fill that hole when she's feeling like you know versus the opposite feeling worthless or not enough or not important or not valued because i hear that so often in my office and when people are stuck in that shame they're trying to fill it with all this junk in this world and it just creates more pain and trauma and hurt for them and more confusion and so my hope is that
01:35:51
Speaker
That is nowhere
Parents as Friends and Support Systems
01:35:52
Speaker
near them that when that lie comes Because it does for all of us that they know Like in their soul deep down that no this is true and knowing because I said I tell them that Right that they know that because I've told it to him day in and day out and then I've not only told him but I've embodied it with them and that That in my hope to honestly is that by 30 that we're hanging out and having fun like I would love to see it hang out with them and and be someone that they want to hang out with versus like oh
01:36:21
Speaker
how dad's coming like, oh man, you know, like, I don't want, I don't want that. I don't want that. I'm like thinking like, okay, you know, we have to have a boundary and we have to like make sure we know we're all there for an hour and we have an exit. Like, I don't want that. Like I want the nothing. Like I want to hang out with my dad and.
01:36:39
Speaker
and go on a hike, right? Like Kimmy and her dad and laugh and be that peer, but also know that I could always be that dad for them at 30, like fill into that role if they need it at any time. But knowing that, like all the other guys said, they're still independent and a strong, you know, confident, capable, healthy daughter, woman. But I could also at any time, I'm there to kind of be that father for them and that peer. And so that's my hope and like,
01:37:08
Speaker
That's my aim, and I feel like if all my kids know that, I'm good. Like I could die a happy man, father, husband, friend. Nothing else really matters, because all the other stuff, money, yes, there's stressors and stuff, but at the end of the day, that is the most important thing, because it makes everything else manageable. You
Hopeful Shift in Generational Parenting
01:37:30
Speaker
could overcome those things, because at their core, they know that this is who I am, and I could go to my dad.
01:37:35
Speaker
So that's what I want. And that's why I'm doing all this is like, hey, if I could learn and continue growing, why not at this point? That's my call. That's my mission. So yeah, that's me. So in other words, Travis, pretty much getting that phone call like Kimmy's dad did about her conference and being like, I'll fly out.
01:37:58
Speaker
I'll be in tears. I'm sure I'll be crying and just like, I'll hang up the phone and be like done, like on the puddle of tears of joy. Just like, I made it. Yeah. And it's okay if she's like, yeah, and dad don't embarrass me.
01:38:16
Speaker
I think that's what we all want. I can't wait to see what the next generation is. If this is kind of what we're getting more dads doing now and then the shifting and learning from our fathers too. Like they're learning from their strengths and their areas that they kind of messed up and if we can take that like
01:38:34
Speaker
I'm excited to hear that maybe there'll be less, you know, daughters in therapy needing to deal with this stuff because we're making a change now. That's my hope. If we could shift
Conclusion and Thanks
01:38:43
Speaker
the tide significantly, let's do it. Like, why not? So, guys and Kimmy, thank you so much for being on the show.
01:38:54
Speaker
Anyway, all those who are listening on the playback, on the audio, or if you're watching on the playback on YouTube, in the description, there'll be links to all of their Instagram profiles, Jason, Nate, and Sean. Great dad's that fall on Instagram, different content, but all great.
01:39:09
Speaker
They all care clearly about their family and their daughters and their and their and their sons at least for Jason and they if Sean had ever has a son, he will too, but they care about their partners. They're involved. They're doing great things out there to kind of again.
01:39:25
Speaker
Share positive messages about being a father and really all the things we talked about tonight. Same with Kimmy. I'm gonna share her Instagram account. There'll be a link direct to the book as well as the Kimmy's website. Please go check it out. Gift it to, you know, a dad you know. Share it, you know. It's a great, only a great Christmas gift to get or Hanukkah or whatever you celebrate during the holiday season. To gift, to give away.
01:39:53
Speaker
Any final. And it's also available on Audible. It's available on Audible. Yes, it is. Any final closing thoughts, Kimmy, before we say goodbye? Any final encouragement for dads, I guess? Want to close us out? Oh, my goodness. I always say you are doing so much more right than it ever feels like, especially when it comes to your girls. And I'm just so honored. Thanks for having me be part of this conversation, and thanks for coming, everybody.
01:40:21
Speaker
These conversations are really what it's all about for me, really feel so strongly about the role of fathers and this chasm that we're crossing and the movement that's happening and how important it is for all of us to support each other. And so thank you for coming and thank you in advance for buying my book and sending it to everyone that you know. Thank you guys. Everyone have a great night.
01:40:46
Speaker
Thanks for joining and listening today. Please leave a comment and review the show. Dads are tough, but not tough enough to do this fatherhood thing alone.