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Navigating Spousal Loss and Solo Parenting with Samina Bari
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Samina Bari is a corporate leader, 2x best-selling author, and advocate whose life and work explores how we navigate loss with courage and grace. A trusted advisor to CEOs and boards with over $40 billion in M&A transactions to her credit, she brings the same clarity and strength that defines her corporate career to her deeply personal mission of helping others rebuild after loss.
After losing her husband suddenly in 2023, she began speaking and writing openly about the life-altering impact of spousal loss and the process of rebuilding after it. Her second book, Don’t Call Me Widow, offers a first-hand guide for supporting those who’ve lost a spouse, and her podcast After Life continues that mission, helping others show up with compassion in life’s hardest moments. This follows her first book, I Can, I Will, & I Did: Lessons on Life, Love, and Leadership, which shares her insights on perseverance and renewal.
Through both her professional and personal journeys, Samina brings rare depth to conversations about grief, growth, and human resilience.
Contact Kendra Rinaldi https://www.griefgratitudeandthegrayinbetween.com/
Episode themes:
- The Power of a Curated Community: Samina discusses the importance of having a reliable support system after the sudden loss of her husband, Doug, and how her friends naturally coordinated tasks—from writing the obituary to helping in the kitchen—so she could simply grieve.
- Practical Grief Support: Samina shares the inspiration behind her book, Don't Call Me a Widow, which serves as a firsthand guide for people who want to support grieving loved ones but don't know what to say or do. She advises against vague offers like "Is there anything I can do for you?" and suggests specific, thoughtful gestures like bringing tea, checking the mail, or just sitting in silence.
- The Problem with the Word "Widow": Samina explains her visceral reaction to being called a widow, noting the word's ancient origins implying someone who is useless or lacks purpose. She shares how she reframes her identity, emphasizing that she is still a wife and her husband is still her husband, he just died.
- Solo Parenting vs. Single Parenting: Samina clarifies the crucial distinction between single parenting (which is often by choice or circumstance, such as divorce) and solo parenting, where a surviving spouse bears 100% of the emotional burden and decision-making for their children without a sounding board.
- Children Are Not "Resilient" to Trauma: Samina debunks the common societal myth that grieving children are naturally resilient, highlighting that children lack the emotional maturity to process such massive loss and often manifest grief through anger, nightmares, or behavioral changes. She also shares a heartbreaking example of "parentification," where her seven-year-old daughter tried to suppress her own grief to take care of the household.
- Why Year Two is Harder: Samina notes that while support is heavy in the first year as you navigate administrative tasks and the initial shock, the second year can often feel more difficult because the reality sets in that the loss is forever.
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Transcript
Introduction to Podcast and Themes
00:00:00
Speaker
But we have to be careful, right? Because that's a child who will grow up too soon, mature too soon, and miss out on the joy of childhood. Now, there is, you know, it's they don't have the most joyful childhood. They have a childhood.
00:00:13
Speaker
The little moments of joy are what we try to find. And they're always tainted with, oh, you know, if if I think to myself, oh, if he could see them now. Oh, he would be so proud. And I make sure i tell them he would be so proud. And here's why he would be so proud.
00:00:29
Speaker
because I can't just say it as a blanket statement, because part of it is that positive reinforcement of who they are and how he wanted them to progress in life.
00:00:42
Speaker
Welcome Grief, Gratitude, and the Gray-in-Between podcast. I'm your host, Kendra Rinaldi. This is a space to explore the full spectrum of grief, from the kind that comes with death to the kind that shows up in life's many transitions.
00:00:59
Speaker
Through stories and conversations, we remind each other that we're not alone. Your journey matters, and here we're figuring it out together. Let's dive right in to today's episode.
00:01:19
Speaker
Let's start with a quick disclaimer. This podcast includes personal stories and perspectives on topics like grief, health, and mental wellness. The views expressed by guests are their own and may reflect individual experiences that are not meant as medical advice.
00:01:36
Speaker
As the host, I hold space for diverse voices, but that does not mean I endorse every viewpoint shared. Please listen with care and take what resonates with you.
00:01:48
Speaker
Thank you for joining us
Samina's Background and NYU Journey
00:01:50
Speaker
today. Today i have the honor of welcoming Samina Bari. She is an author, a best-selling author and the creator of Don't Call Me a Widow, which is a first hand guide to help support someone who's lost their spouse. And it is ah an amazing resource and a different way of also looking at something that we really sometimes don't talk about as much of the spousal support ah spouse spousal loss and just that journey.
00:02:23
Speaker
Welcome, Samina. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me, Kendra. Thank you for being here. we We had started chatting before we started recording regarding of where I live. I want to know where you live now and where did you grow up and just a little bit of that family dynamics and also how you met your husband, Doug. So want to go into that journey. um Well, I'll say I'm first generation. My parents had immigrated from India and Pakistan and I grew up in a really conservative background. in New York, New York City, a place called Staten Island.
00:03:00
Speaker
And um as for as long as I can remember, I was the only one like me. I grew up in a very white Catholic, either Italian Catholic or Irish Catholic community. So I always had this feeling of not quite belonging And so when i set my sights on college, I wanted to go somewhere different and be immersed in lots of cultures. So I went to New York University, which really is a beautiful place for diversity and you know different ah people with different backgrounds, different cultures. And lived in New York for a number of years through my formative ah young professional years until I met my husband, Doug, through work.
Life in Northern California and Raising Twins
00:03:46
Speaker
I happened to work on an agency at an agency and he was my client and he walked in one day as a new client and, you know, it really was love at first sight.
00:03:58
Speaker
ah Did you have to sign any release of, of like client, ah you know, like yeah you think you know, it was one of those things that truly it was, I think, love at first sight for both of us. And so we dated,
00:04:13
Speaker
you know basically went from our first date to proper boyfriend, girlfriend within eight days. And I then went to my management and I took myself off of the account because of course it is a conflict of interest. um You know, and we were on the East Coast for a number of years. We lived because we both worked in pharmaceuticals. We lived in Bucks County, Pennsylvania for a number of years. And then both just kind of got tired of the East Coast. and the cold, cold winters and the snow we were just talking about. So we moved to ah Northern California and um we've been here since on and off since 2014. We had a few years that we went and lived in Austin for a little bit and just came back. And so the Bay Area is home and it's where I'm raising our ah young twin daughters who are going to be turning 10 in March.
00:05:11
Speaker
that turning Yeah, you have ah your hands full. And we'll talk about that too with two at the same age. yeah Wait till the teenage years. I mean, wait till that. Everyone's telling me and I'm already stressed out about it. Yeah, I hope your doors don't sound very loud when they shut. well They have started slamming already. One of them.
00:05:35
Speaker
One of them just slammer, yes. I know, the the hormones, it's like a whole whole other ballgame of what happens right in in in our minds. Thank you for sharing that and then your your journey of where you started, where you ended. And this part of belonging, the this word of belonging,
Community Support and Belonging After Loss
00:05:54
Speaker
I am curious even with that now, and we can go it we can tie it in to now the aspect of belonging even now as you are navigating life as a solo parent too and the in these different group settings. So I don't want to forget that because you mentioned you growing up in a place where you didn't really quite fit in. And I am curious if that emotion of belonging has showed up even now in your life.
00:06:23
Speaker
three years of doing solo parenting and the different family dynamics that and people around you, or you could answer that now. yeah Yeah. You know, I think that's really interesting. You know, when I grew up, I was conscious of it, but, um, I'm not sure if other people are conscious of it, right. Because, um, in my estimation, people didn't treat me any differently, but for some reason I felt different because I look different and I was different. I was unusual. I was what they called exotic years ago. Um,
00:06:53
Speaker
And I just kind of tried not to think about it a lot and just fit in and did everything to fit in. So, for example, my parents spoke their their ah language to me, Urdu, but I answered back in English. um And as a result, unfortunately, I'm not i'm not quite literate in Urdu, but i and I understand it. I just can't speak it. But um I don't think I saw it that way. And I don't think anyone ever called it out that way. Now today is very different unfortunately, isn't it? um So I'm a little more sensitive to it, but it's something you carry, right? It's something, um again, I don't think anyone treated me any differently, but I always felt like I had to prove more in order to fit in.
00:07:37
Speaker
And I know that when we did a short stint in the Austin area, we lived in a beautiful ah kind of bedroom community called Dripping Springs. and my children had just started preschool. And I saw a class of 30 blonde, blue-eyed children. And one of my children looks very much like my husband, who was white. So she's got very light eyes, very fair skin.
00:08:04
Speaker
you know she She doesn't look like she's a mixed race. My other daughter looks like me, so she's got darker hair and olive skin. And she always stuck out you know among the little head of little blonde kids.
00:08:17
Speaker
And i realized in that moment, I didn't want her to feel other. I wanted her to just fit in. And that was part of the reason why we moved back to the Bay Area because of the cultural diversity.
00:08:30
Speaker
um And you know you're right, when you lose your person, you all of a sudden are not, you're not single and you're not married. And the couple friends you have represent you in a different dynamic.
00:08:45
Speaker
And I have to say, Because of my experiences growing up and because I didn't have a strong family structure in that, I don't mean structure. My parents were responsible parents. um I just didn't fit with them. So I chose the people who I surrounded myself with very carefully.
00:09:06
Speaker
To me, it was never about being popular or having the most friends. It was having people who truly mattered in my life. So as a result, the friendships that I've had from childhood are the still are ah the same friendships I have. My closest friends are the ones I've had for more than 30 years.
00:09:25
Speaker
It's the people i can count on the fingers of two hands. And what I did, and maybe unintentionally, but because of you know what I bring forward in my life, my husband and I curated and cultivated a really dear group of friends, even where we live now.
00:09:43
Speaker
And um they were very close to both of us. But what they said to me when I lost him, and they lost him too, was that you are enough. You are not, you know, you yes, it was you and Doug, but you are you and we love you. And the community that I've created has not forgotten me.
00:10:06
Speaker
And I am included in things. And I don't let it bother me. I know there are nights where you know they go out as couples and that doesn't bother me. um But most often I am included.
00:10:17
Speaker
And I've created a chosen family for myself and my children that um you know the men step in to help with the with my girls. They're all girls' uncles. Everyone is an auntie. And they they have permission to parent my children the way I parent my children and vice versa.
00:10:39
Speaker
So I have to say, you know, community is such an important aspect of this stage in life because we're social creatures. We're not meant to hide away and be shut or be shunned. um And it it makes me so sad when I hear that from other women, especially who say that the couple friends they once socialized with are not co included and not including them anymore.
00:11:04
Speaker
Samina, thank you for sharing that. It's so... So meaningful what you said, because you you use the word that you and your husband curated really carefully, the type of friendships that you made. I love that word. I had never heard of it in that way of really...
00:11:23
Speaker
putting that effort that it goes into creating these friendships and community around you. And the fact that the one that you built is still there to support you. Because so many times when there are changes like this in life, and I see it more often, I've interviewed I've been doing this for six years, so I've interviewed a lot of different people in different s stages of life. And when somebody has lost a spouse, a lot of times they feel very isolated from what used to be their community.
00:11:55
Speaker
but the fact that you've been able to maintain, but also what you had been able to work within you to not feel like you're being excluded when they're going out on their own or something like that. It's not about you and that's it in that moment. It's just that they just happen to be going on something that is two for two. And it they're not, yeah. So I appreciate you sharing your perspective and in that and and that it's still been supportive and that the the dads had also stepped in, that you know your male friends have stepped in also to support the girls and be that for them too. So thank you for sharing.
00:12:34
Speaker
Let's go into chatting about the timeline a little bit. you Doug died December,
Sudden Loss of Husband and Immediate Community Support
00:12:42
Speaker
not, don't know, the month, in 2023. Yes, in April. Okay. April of 2020. Oh, it's coming up. In 2023,
00:12:46
Speaker
yes in april okay april of twenty twenty oh it's good coming up in twenty twenty three And the girls were at that time seven. just turned seven a week and a half or higher.
00:13:00
Speaker
Before. Right. And it was a sudden unexpected death. And so what type of resources that you and the girls have then in order to help you in your grief journey at that starting stage of grief? Of course, it continues. But in those early days and weeks of grief, what were some of these support systems you had?
00:13:24
Speaker
I would have to say probably, again, the community. My community was probably my greatest source of um strength and assistance and care. um So I should back up and say that Because I'm from the East Coast, many of my friends are on the East Coast, and i actually have one friend in London. And as soon as as soon as it happened, I had one dear, dear friend.
00:13:52
Speaker
I called her in the morning, and she was there at my house that afternoon from New York. She flew right away. And everybody just kind of came. They coordinated among who was coming so that I wouldn't be overwhelmed, and then everyone leaves at the same time. So they, too, were quite aware of that. And, you know, they were the ones who I think really picked me up in those early days. I was very concerned about my kids, um as I think, you know, any any parent is, what's going to happen with the girls. And something that's really important to note is my husband and I had a reverse professional relationship, you know marriage, in that I worked and traveled a lot.
00:14:32
Speaker
He had taken care of the children full time from day one. So for them, it was an incredible relationship. devastating loss. more you know More so than I think if your parents are working and you see them at night because he was there everything. He did everything with them and spent all of his time with them. um And so because I was so concerned about the kids, my friends found counselors for me, grief-specific counselors. And I got my children into grief therapy two weeks after he died.
00:15:06
Speaker
Um, because I, but my background is in healthcare. care I do recognize the importance of early intervention, especially in trauma, even if child is not willing to talk about it, but it was very important for me to find certified, uh, grief therapists who focused on children because techniques in children are very different because, you know, children don't have the emotional maturity or capacity to talk through therapy. Um, so that was one of the first things I did.
00:15:34
Speaker
And, um, you know, what I did was like I leaned on my on my circle of friends. So, you know, they took over almost intuitively because they know, again, we talk about curating friendships. I knew exactly the kind of friends I had. So amongst themselves, they coordinated based on their strengths. Who could write an obituary? Who could set up a website? Who could ah help in the kitchen and coordinate? Who could um you know, organize the memorial service. And they took it upon themselves to lean into their areas of strength and formed their own text group.
00:16:18
Speaker
And they took care of so much of it so that I could just be and grieve and fall apart as I needed to. That is so important what you just shared, that they showed up in a way of being themselves. And it's something in your book too. It's like that part of when you're supporting someone, show up with who you are and the the traits that you have and the skills that you have show up in that way for the person that is grieving and the fact that they were able to
00:16:50
Speaker
manage all these different logistical things and supportive things towards you know for you and the girls during that time. That is just beautiful that they showed up that way for you.
00:17:02
Speaker
Let's talk about your book and the process of you starting to write and how that helped you and has helped you in your
Writing 'Don't Call Me Widow' as a Therapeutic Exercise
00:17:14
Speaker
journey.
00:17:14
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. So one of the additional source resources that my friends found for my girls was a lovely nonprofit group called CARA, and they focus on children and grief.
00:17:28
Speaker
And it's a ah meeting that happens twice ah twice a month. And my girls, one of my daughters still attends the group. And their while the parents drop their children off, there's a group for parent those parents because they too are grieving the loss of their spouse. And I would sit there first, you know, crying in complete and utter disbelief that, oh my gosh, how am I sitting in a grief group to, you know, we would all talk about things and there were some common themes that came across that honestly we would just, you know, complain about. How could so-and-so be so insensitive? How could someone say something like this? They don't know. They don't understand what we're going through. And we very jokingly said, gosh, we should write a book about this. And because I am ah kind of a thought, you know, an idea to impact person and my background is writing, I did it. I actually basically created a list and I created it out of anger at first, very important to know. of all of the things that had wronged us collectively as a group.
00:18:41
Speaker
And I let it sit, of course, because, you know, you you shouldn't do anything in anger, but I had to get it out of me because to me, writing is therapeutic. And I let it sit there for for a while.
00:18:53
Speaker
And um I prioritized, I had been writing a memoir for a few years before my husband died. And the night that he died, I was actually proofing it to give it to him for his first read.
00:19:06
Speaker
So he never got to read my memoir. So what I did was I first um focused on writing, rewriting the end of my chapter, my my book to reflect his loss. And that's my first book. I can, I will. And I did. And that was about my experiences as being other and overcoming them in a world where it seemed like everyone was, you know, everything was fighting against me and the the universe was against me. So I finished that. And then that was a feeling of accomplishment. And so then A year later, i was able to tackle, what do I want to do with this? And it dawned upon me through time and clarity that, my gosh, no one meant to hurt us.
00:19:47
Speaker
that And I just really struggled to think about what's the common thread? Why is does this happen? And I realized it's because we have a curtain between those of us who experience loss and those of us who haven't. and those of us who haven't have no idea what it's like. It's it's unimaginable.
00:20:04
Speaker
It's a loss like no other. And the loss of a sibling or an elderly parent, that does not compare to the loss of your spouse, your person, your other half, because that's a loss. That's a loss of yourself and your identity in the world. um So I realized that, but then I also realized it's society's profound discomfort with the thought of death, their own mortality.
00:20:27
Speaker
And it's the discomfort that drives so many people to say, oh, I can't include them anymore because you know she's not she's not part of a couple. Or you know I'll just send a casserole and be done with it. I did my part. or you know send the obligatory flowers and you're done.
00:20:45
Speaker
And then you forget about it and you go on with the rest of your life because your life is perfect and normal. And so I really had to dig deep to understand what what it was that was driving this pervasive human behavior and its discomfort. um And it's the You know, it's like people say, God forbid if I die.
00:21:05
Speaker
That's what they say, if I die. Well, it's it's yeah when, right? It is when you And it's not God forbid, it will happen. and You mentioned that that you had found a book that said like something, like a handbook of being and if I die. You're like, wait, why isn't it called when I die? Because we have found discomfort with it. So I wrote this book, not for those of us who are going through it,
00:21:30
Speaker
But for those of us around those of us who are going through it or who will go through it, if there is a sickness in the family or, you know, if there has been a loss and it's very simply written, it's really meant to be a firsthand guide that says here, here's what we we're really feeling.
00:21:47
Speaker
And, you know, you probably don't realize this when you say this, this is what we're thinking. When you do this, this is how we react. but We don't have, we're not going to tell you because we're too polite. When you say, how are you? You want us to say, fine, we're fine.
00:22:05
Speaker
So that's what we say, but we're not fine. But we know that's what you want to hear. So it's meant to really pull back the curtain on it and be very um directive in, please don't say this, instead say this. Please don't do this, instead do this. And it's meant to be almost like that format of, there was a a diet book, eat this, not this. it's It's basically that. And I did it, I wrote it very intentionally. I wrote it to be brief, to be non-confrontational, to be easy to follow, easy to index, and um succinct because no one wants to read about it. So if I could make it palatable and somewhat engaging and real, and my hope was that people will read it. And I end it with some checklists of things that people who want help don't realize how to help.
00:23:00
Speaker
um and you know because I think everyone will need it at some point in their life. Now, what would you say to someone as they're reading it and they are looking at the sections that say, don't do this, do this, and you realize, oh my goodness, I've done everything in the don't list when I've supported someone that's been going through the loss of a spouse or something.
00:23:24
Speaker
What would you say to someone as they're reading this when they look in hindsight of what they might've done and theyre what would you be your suggestion for those emotions that show You know, I would say thank you for reading, you know, because thank that the fact that you're even reading it and taking the time to understand it is great. And don't worry about it. I mean, I was guilty of some of those things too. And it's really not until you're in this position that you understand it.
00:23:55
Speaker
And it's never too late. um You know, you can you can apologize. You can say, I didn't realize. You can apologize. You can let it go. You can be the friend who hasn't checked in a while. And, you know, through the book, it says, just check in every once in a while. Just say you're thinking of them. Even if you didn't reach out, you it's okay. People just want to know that they're not forgotten.
00:24:16
Speaker
People want to know that they matter. You know, whatever side of this story that you're sitting on, there's a need for connection. And, you know, hopefully the people in your life, you know, give you grace. Like, you know, those are the moments not to hold grudges. And nothing like a loss like this reframes your look your outlook on life.
00:24:37
Speaker
Yeah, having grace with yourself, and but also hoping that the person that is grieving also has a little bit of grace with you and knowing that even as you were trying to support, you might have said the wrong thing, but you were trying to show up in the best way you could. Right, and that's the acknowledgement. It's just the acknowledgement. That's a huge step.
00:24:58
Speaker
You know, just trying to be better at it, taking the time to educate yourself to be a better supporter. Right. That's half the battle.
Practical Advice for Supporting Those in Grief
00:25:06
Speaker
It's confronting it, right? Yes. And let's go into some of these. Like one of the main things a lot of times we say is like,
00:25:15
Speaker
Do you need anything? Can I, you know, we we make these very, and i I'm in the space, I've grieved myself, not the spouse and not a spouse, but I've grieved in other situations and I walk alongside people as they're grieving. And yet I tend to myself say the wrong things, even in those situations, even when I know. Okay.
00:25:37
Speaker
So there's times in which you might check in on someone and say this very broad question of like, is there anything I can do for you? Right? Like this very open-ended one. let's ah what would Let's go into this example, for example. What is the rephrasing of that very broad question that you would suggest to our listeners? Yeah. So let me tell you why I put that in there. Because you know when you're in the depths of grief, you don't know what you want. And we do not want to ask for help. And we can't think. So the fact is, we feel like it's another burden. you want me to think about what you can do? Like it's, it's almost like, are you kidding me?
00:26:17
Speaker
um So as I, as I lay out my book, do little things that are thoughtful. um Ask when was the last time you ate? Let me make you a cup of tea. Would you, um give me the keys to your mailbox if that's the case. Like let me go through your mail. Are your bills all paid if you're, you know, ah if you're a close enough person?
00:26:35
Speaker
What are the plans? Take the garbage out. Find out what the other person is missing in their lives and show up in that way. And don't forget, you know, there's, you know, especially with the spouse, you've lost the one person who takes took care of you.
00:26:50
Speaker
There's no one who takes care of me anymore. I take care of myself. So even the the slightest gesture of, you know, coming by and, you know, bringing, you know, a bottle of wine or making a cup of tea and sitting with them, just in silence,
00:27:05
Speaker
means so much because as you said earlier, um grief is isolating. Even when you're surrounded by people, you feel all alone. And i think, you know, my my one thing, and I said this to all of my community, all my friends, is you will continue to say Doug's name.
00:27:24
Speaker
We will continue to talk about and We will continue to remember him. You don't erase that person. And it's now become normal. people You know, Doug's name comes up every single week in my life by other people.
00:27:39
Speaker
And for good things, because he, you know, he made an impact or, you know, when we go places, oh, Doug would have loved this thing or, you know, and they say it. And that makes me so happy because it helps us move forward in our grief and it makes it not, um not so heavy, but it makes it more of, you know, okay, this is now normal. It's it's normalizing it. And for children, that's very, very important. You cannot erase a parent.
00:28:07
Speaker
Yeah, it's because it's all of a sudden when people have this fear of talking about it, it's not like you got divorced, which is like, some right? it's Which is very different that you're like, oh, don't know, should I talk about her ex? You know, those this is This is your person. You still were in love. You had been married for 21 years. This was who you were with. you know it's It's a huge part of your life and your identity. Identity.
00:28:37
Speaker
Hi, I just had to come on and just kind of interrupt right now this episode that you're hearing. Thank you so much. I'm so grateful that you guys are listening to this conversation. And every single time i hear a guest, there's something new that I learn and something else that ends up showing up within me that I realize I still have to work on.
00:28:57
Speaker
And if by chance, as you're listening to this conversation, you're feeling the same, that there's parts of you that are being stirred up and you are navigating a life transition right now that feels just heavy and stressful and just layered with grief. I want you to know that you do not have to do it alone.
00:29:15
Speaker
I invite you to connect with me for a free 15 minute discovery call and we'll explore what's coming up for you and see if working together feels like the right fit.
00:29:26
Speaker
Just check the show notes below for my email and reach out for details. I'd really love to support you in integrating these transitions with more ease and clarity.
00:29:39
Speaker
Can't wait to hear back from you. Okay, let's keep on listening to the episode.
Identity Challenge After Losing a Spouse
00:29:46
Speaker
And now let's talk about that part of identity because your book itself is called Don't Call Me a Widow. So I want to know that part of the identity as a spouse and then with this word of widow and how it feels when you hear it.
00:30:06
Speaker
ah Well, yet the the title is actually Don't Call Me Widow. but Oh, Don't Call Me Widow. Sorry. Thank you. Thank you. um So the the word, I've never liked the word widow. I don't know. It's just ah an emotional reaction. And the first time someone introduced me as Doug's widow, I had a visceral reaction. I flinched.
00:30:27
Speaker
I thought, I'm not a widow. And of course, because my background does communications, i I looked it up. What is the definition of widow? And it's a very old, old term. goes back to Sanskrit and Old English.
00:30:39
Speaker
And it essentially means someone who has ah someone who's useless and has no purpose left in life and ah horrible, horrible things. I cite it in the book, but look it up. It's not it's not a flattering image, but it's basically someone who's done, done with life.
00:30:54
Speaker
And I thought, well, that's not me. Of course not. So I do not say i really have ah an aversion to the word and I'm not alone. um But that's the only word we have in this society. So I still say, you know, my husband, he's not my ex-husband.
00:31:11
Speaker
And I don't even like saying late husband. I say he's my husband and he died. um And so that is, that's one part of me. But you're right, you know, you lose that person and you've lost part of your identity.
00:31:23
Speaker
And I'm figuring out who I am again, you know, without him, because, you know, when you're with someone for that long, you become almost the same person because, you know, you've you've matured together, you've grown together and you've become the person you are in large part with and because of that person you're with. So it's about reframing yourself. So I still wear my engagement and wedding rings. I wear, you know, an initial for him. I'm very much his wife and he is very much my husband.
00:31:56
Speaker
He died and that's all it is. That's all I say. But I still talk about him as my husband. I love that. Yeah. I love it. be i When when i read the title of your book,
00:32:08
Speaker
It ah reminded me that one of the books that I was given when my mom died was Motherless Daughters. And it was like memories. And I'm like, I still have a mother. like it was so It felt so odd. I'm like, I don't like to call myself a motherless daughter. i am not motherless. I have my mother. And I still have a wife. and My not here. right?
00:32:36
Speaker
Yes, that's kind of – so I can – that is that. It's that part of – yeah, it feels so odd. So I don't – I can see it in ah that by that lens how that for you would be that case as it was for me with the motherless. I'm like, no, I haven't. Well, you know, yeah I have to say I haven't read that book. Yeah.
00:32:57
Speaker
But, you know, I think that brings up a really important point, which is what I put in my preface. There are so many books out there that are written by esteemed experts who have degrees in this and that and and and professional and clinical experience in this and that.
00:33:13
Speaker
But they're not written from a first person point of view. They are experts in name and paper only, not in lived experience, because I think I don't know who the author is of that. It was different little, it was like vignettes of different women that had, their mother had died type of thing. Whoever wrote it and titled it, I'm not sure if that person had gone through it.
00:33:37
Speaker
oh Because if she had, she probably would have had the same reaction. It could have been. But at the same time, what I've realized too is that everybody's perception of things is different. and their own Grief is so unique to the person going through it. So i could I could even see that because we get so caught up. And like you were mentioning language, and we get kind of we we we adopt what is already being said very likely, like nonchalant, without thinking of it, right? So very, you know, like I would call my dad, he's a widower, right? Even though I did not know the meaning of that word. My dad's a widower. His now wife was also a widow when they met. I would use that word nonchalantly because it's what colloquial, you know, what is used. Yeah, exactly. It becomes the standard default language. yeah you know and And you're right. It is grief is very individualized and my book doesn't, uh,
00:34:35
Speaker
doesn't mean to speak to everyone, but it is um ah it is largely my experience and also the experience of others. So it's really- in that group setting. Yeah. It's group setting, but I also had members of the group who lost their spouses in different ways read the book before I published it.
00:34:54
Speaker
And part of why I wanted, because I wanted to give them voice too. I wrote it to give us all a voice and some agency in this this ah position that we find ourselves in and to let everyone know this is what we feel. So I took notes, you know, I i i incorporated some of their stories. I took all of their notes. I had other people who had had experienced this type of a loss read it and give me feedback. So it doesn't it doesn't ah speak for everybody, certainly, but it speaks in large part for what we go through. And I'm also a member of grief groups on Facebook. And so These are all very common issues. And that was kind of why I felt compelled to write this because I thought, well, again, the grief groups are us speaking in ah in an echo chamber because we're only complaining to each other. but it's so important to outside sees it
00:35:50
Speaker
yes But it's so important to have these type of groups and communities that do have the similar type of loss because the part of the comparison in grief, which we've talked about here, I kind of was saying my perspective as the motherless daughter, right? With you, it is ah not, it's, it's apples to word, very different experience. It's not apples to apples. It's a whole other situation just because you've lived one type of grief does not relate to the other.
00:36:21
Speaker
Can you talk about that part of really being with peers? Like you said, people that really can see you in the same way of your grief, like really see your grief.
00:36:33
Speaker
Yeah, you know, I do think that's a really important distinction. And one of the things that I do write in the book is don't compare losses. Now, I'm sorry you lost your mother. I don't know when you lost your mother. um But there, you know, there's a cycle, a circle of life. You know, you're you're supposed to get married and have kids and then see hopefully grandchildren live a long life and then you pass away and hopefully...
00:36:57
Speaker
when you've passed away, you've seen your children grow up. You've seen the fruits of your labor. You've seen grandchildren, maybe great-grandchildren. And that passing is the end of a life. That is a life complete.
00:37:09
Speaker
And so I would have people say, oh, I know how you feel. My my my father just passed away and he was 90-something. You know, how dare you say that to me where my seven-year-old children have lost their father?
00:37:22
Speaker
That's an incomplete cycle, you know. so It's really important that you don't compare losses and you don't compare, you mentioned divorce earlier, someone said, oh, I know how you're feeling since my divorce, blah, blah, blah. And I would get so angry. How dare you compare the death of my husband with a divorce? That has nothing to do with one another.
00:37:43
Speaker
Your husband, ex-husband is alive and breathing and you made a conscious decision to leave. I did not have any part of this, nor did he. um So it's important to be in a group of your peers because the experiences are not the same.
00:37:58
Speaker
Now, losses are not the same either. some Many people in our group um lost their spouses to illness, to cancer. um And there was only one other person who had had a sudden sudden death, but her husband's ah death was ah he it was a congenital, an undiagnosed congenital issue, and he died in his sleep. um So there is a difference, and mine was an accident, so there was trauma.
00:38:22
Speaker
um So everybody's experience is very different, but you really cannot compare apples to oranges. A life of an elderly parent, not that it's any less painful, but is fundamentally different than losing your partner of your entire adult life. And because that's you lose your footing on yourself. You question who you are.
00:38:42
Speaker
You have no more purpose. So, you know, when I think about who I am now, I don't have any dreams anymore. I don't have a dream of retirement.
00:38:53
Speaker
i don't I can't picture myself getting older anymore. I can't even visualize what I might look like. I can't visualize being alive at 70.
00:39:06
Speaker
It's gone. it like It just doesn't exist in my memory because that part of my identity is gone. And I can only live in the minute and I can live in short-term bursts.
00:39:17
Speaker
And I travel frequently with my children because it gives me something to look forward to in the short term. But I can't think, I can think of my kids, you know, through teenage hood and getting to college, but after that I'm lost.
00:39:35
Speaker
You lose your dreams, you lose your hope, you lose your future because I've lost myself. You know, what I thought was my perfect life is gone. Yeah, the whole idea of what was going to be is no longer there. we we go through so many little Gs. There's the big G and then the the you know big grief. And then there's all these other secondary losses and other griefs that come within that, that end up encompassing also a lot of the energy and the emotions that we go through in our grief. And some of these are this, the loss of the dream, the loss of identity, the loss of future It isn't only the grieving of your husband. It all these other layers of grief. And then you wonder, why is it that I have grief brain and why am I so exhausted and why?
Mental Effects of Grief and Future Planning
00:40:36
Speaker
And it's the answer. It is real. Yeah. And I'm not the same person I was ah before he died and I never will be.
00:40:44
Speaker
And um I'm also, I still suffer from grief brain. I think it takes some time depending on the significance, that the severity, ah the trauma. Of course, I had trauma with it.
00:40:54
Speaker
But, you know, my memory is is terrible now. I can't, I still don't remember things. It took me months and months and months to get behind a wheel. I physically could not drive. And people couldn't possibly understand it and But it is real. It's a real physiological impact that it's, you know, it's your mind's way of protecting you and trying to reprogram and rewire um to to accommodate such a big loss.
00:41:19
Speaker
um But yeah, it is, it's one of those things that unless you've been in our shoes, it's on it's it's unfathomable. And that's really why I wrote that book because it really gives that look into an area that you can't imagine.
00:41:37
Speaker
And I, you know, since it's been published, I have friends who, yeah I have a particular friend who has a niece, an adult niece whose husband has an end stage condition. And she was complaining to her aunt that, oh, everyone is saying the most hurtful things. And, you know, and she was crying. So my friend ah shipped six of the books to various family members to help them understand what she's going through and how what they're saying to her hurts because they think they're being helpful and she is not seeing it that way. And she has five young children at home and, you know, she's well aware of the situation. So the last thing she needs is people seemingly thinking they're helping, but prodding and poking with intrusive questions that are laying even more on her.
00:42:31
Speaker
And again, you know, the brain and the heart can only take so much before they snap. And so, you know, if you want to be helpful, um you know, it's really important that you tread lightly and think carefully about it.
00:42:45
Speaker
A lot of times in that treading lightly, we tend to then be so scared to then not knowing that then we end up not showing up. But again, it is better to show up imperfectly for others than to not show up at all. So don't be discouraged, but at the same time with books like yours and you know as a resource and for us to really educate ourselves so that when we have friends or family members going through something like this. We have the tools to know how to support it. I love that, that your friend went ahead and just sent these books to the other family members around to help her, you know, in her niece and her journey, because that it, her niece, right? is yeah said that Yeah. Her niece and her journey. Yeah.
00:43:34
Speaker
as she's embarking to event, maybe, you know, be solo parent at one point, that it's, um it is just so important to just, again, take the reins and the control of the things that you can do, which is again, educating yourself, learning more about it, having more conversations with people that know firsthand what it is to go through something like this or reading stories firsthand, people that have gone through this, like in your, in your case,
Solo Parenting vs Single Parenting
00:44:06
Speaker
Samina. So thank you for, for bringing this up. Also as a solo parent and you make that distinction too, you mentioned like, don't compare men, that can you talk about that comparison of solo parenting versus when you're yeah a single? go Yeah. Yes. um you know and so
00:44:26
Speaker
So the term solo parenting has gotten hijacked by, ah at least on TikTok, by men. I'm solo today. I'm flying solo today. It's You know, when when men are being fathers to their children without their what with you know without their mother's mother's presence, that's not solo parenting. That is, you have your children, you're not babysitting them, you are just with your children. But it's gotten this label of being solo parenting. And there's single parenting. Single parenting is either by choice or you know by circumstance, um but it's something that you willingly have made a decision
00:45:06
Speaker
with. I'm going to choose to have children without someone in my life. I'm going to get divorced. That's single parenting. um Solo parenting is you are flying 100% solo. You bear 100% of the emotional burden and responsibility. You have no one to check with. You have no one to discuss school decisions with. You have no one to make the medical decisions for your children with. You have no sounding board. you have You've lost that other person who loves your children as only a parent can love their children.
00:45:43
Speaker
That is true solo parenting. I have no one. And everything I do, I pray I'm doing the right decision. i I think, what would he do? What would he want me to do? And that's how I parent. This is how I feel. How would he feel? But I have no one to to bounce things off of. I have no one to have the conversation with after the children go to bed. I'm 100% alone 100% of the time when it comes to my children and their futures.
00:46:13
Speaker
And supporting them in their own grief too, in their own grief journey as well. That is also a big responsibility because you're the one that you're navigating your own grief as you're supporting them and theirs and their emotions too.
00:46:30
Speaker
Can you talk about that part of really seeing your children and their own grief and supporting them in the ways that each may need?
Support for Grieving Children
00:46:42
Speaker
Yeah, you know, since my husband died, you know, my my children are my 100% priority. So I don't work full time anymore. i can't, i you know, I need to support them. And I need to be there for them because they've lost one parent and they now realize how unpredictable life is. And so they suffer from some degree of, you know, from anxiety because, you know, they said goodnight to their dad one day and then the next day he was gone.
00:47:06
Speaker
And for them, you know, life is scary. And they live with a daily fear that something's going to happen to me and they will be alone. And so they're extra protective.
00:47:19
Speaker
And, you know, ah there iss a there's a section in my book that I talk just about children and grief. um There is this common phrase that we were talking about. People just like to say the easy thing because it's part of our culture. Oh, children are resilient.
00:47:32
Speaker
Oh, children are resilient. Don't you know don't worry. they'll They'll be fine. And I am here to say children of trauma and grief are not resilient. That is a phrase that is thrown around by people who have never experienced a child of grief or trauma.
00:47:47
Speaker
um And they need extra care. They need extra work. and they need to be seen and heard and not made to feel invisible. um And it's very deliberate work that needs to be done with these children, as I am doing with the therapy that they still go to weekly and they still go to the grief group. um And their teachers have been, um I work closely with their teachers to educate their teachers on signs of grief and their patterns because
00:48:18
Speaker
children don't have the emotional capacity or maturity to deal with grief as much as adults. I mean, adult you know, we get walloped by grief. How do you think a young child can handle it? So with children, it frequently comes out as behaviors and anger or acting out or nightmares or bedwetting or all sorts of physical manifestations because they can't get the the emotions out. um And so I've had to educate schools, the schools that my children attend, because as I've learned, most teachers will go an entire career without ever having experienced a child who's lost a parent.
00:48:58
Speaker
And they are the biggest sources of support for children. But in my case, ah what my children's school immediately after my husband died was a big source of ongoing grief for my children, who they went to a a Christian school And what I learned was that the school in its um in its kindness, but misguidedness was saying a daily prayer for our family, for my husband, for the children. So they were re-traumatizing my children and not letting my children have some respite from their grief.
00:49:38
Speaker
And um when I raised it to them, they apologized. They didn't realize because again, Society doesn't know how to talk to us as adults in grief. They certainly don't know how to deal with children in grief. But the important thing is you don't not talk to the children. You don't ignore them. You talk to them about their their parent.
00:50:01
Speaker
You share good memories. You step in when you can. You think of, just as you think of for us, what did our what did my partner do? Well, what did their daddy do that that I can be with them. And, you know, again, that's where the uncles have stepped in, taking them out to play golf or to museums or to movies or to the park, um you know, and not with their children. I've been really clear, you know, can you do it with my children alone, not with your children, so they don't see, ah that's someone else's dad.
00:50:31
Speaker
They need some, you know, focused time. And, um you know, kids are the future, right? You know, I have more I'm more yesterdays in my rearview mirror than I have tomorrow's looking ahead but they have their whole lives and if we don't get this right children who've lost us a parent early in life are more prone to addictions and depression and anxiety and suicide a suicidal ideation so we have to get this right I have to get this right for my children so they can grow out into successful adulthood And they'll always carry that loss like a tattoo on their heart. It will always be there.
00:51:11
Speaker
It's just how do we live with it? with And you you mentioned something in your book that a lot of times too, the child may not show it as much because they don't want to bring up even more grief to the parent. They're worried even about the parent, right? So they may not show their grief.
00:51:33
Speaker
in a way that it's clear for you to even see as a parent yourself, even living with them, that you wouldn't know that that is grief because they might be hiding it from you to not make you feel more sad, right, as well.
00:51:49
Speaker
Right, that's so that's parentification right there. um I have one child who just became kind of head of household. She did everything her daddy did. She wanted to cook, she wanted to clean. She said, mommy, relax. And I had to say, you know what, sweetheart,
00:52:03
Speaker
I'm a mommy. You're the child. Let me be the mommy. But she was trying to take care of me because that was a way for her to cope with her grief. She was tucking it in. She was stuffing it down. And she was being useful. And she was being a problem solver. But she wasn't dealing with it.
00:52:19
Speaker
She wasn't dealing with it. And it took her more than, ah was almost three years for her to cry. and Really cry from the depths of her soul. and she is a child who wakes up every single night with nightmares of me dying because she's so kept it down she's kept it hidden for so long and she was trying not to deal with it but we have to be careful right because that's a child who will grow up too soon mature too soon and miss out on the joy of childhood now there is you know it's they don't have the most joyful childhood they have a childhood the little moments of joy are what we
00:52:57
Speaker
try to find and they're always tainted with oh you know if I think myself oh if he could see them now oh he would be so proud and I make sure tell them he would be so proud and here's why he would be so proud because I can't just say it as a blanket statement because part of it is that positive reinforcement of who they are and how he wanted them to progress in life and you've just had to keep them on track and You know, I know so many people pay condolences when there is a loss, but the children are often ignored.
00:53:29
Speaker
And my own child said to me, every i i said, look, all these people are here for us. And she said, no, they're all here for you. No one's here for us. And that was, you know, that was just seven at seven years old, at seven years old to have that verbiage. I'm like, my, my heart was breaking. Think when you just said that she was like trying to take care of just imagine this seven year old doing all this roles of thinking she's going to step into daddy's shoes and now take care of you. It was just like, Oh, it's heartbreaking. Right. and And other people will dismiss it as, Oh, aren't you a good girl? Aren't you a big girl helping mommy? That's actually not a good thing. You don't reinforce that.
00:54:10
Speaker
You say, thank you. I appreciate it But that's not your job. That's my job. Oh, gosh. Yeah, that is just so, yeah, these little images of these children that get in my head, just like I'm like, my heart's breaking for me i your daughter. It is heartbreaking to, you know, when you can't help them with their own heartbreak. But they have to say they're going through it. And all you can do is be there with them and let them know it's okay to feel it.
00:54:37
Speaker
Yes, and that's the part too, acknowledging that we don't have to fix that emotion.
Acknowledging Emotions in Grief
00:54:42
Speaker
It's okay for that emotion to come out of grief. It's okay for the sadness to come out. Of course. Yeah. And then by us doing that with the children, your friends doing it with you as they're there to support you, not trying to fix you. It is just so important. Just being there, holding space for the other person as they grieving is in itself one of the best ways you can show up for someone else.
00:55:08
Speaker
Right. Because, you know, people want, ah people are uncomfortable with it for themselves. So they want it to be okay. So they say, it'll be okay. You'll be fine. Just, you know, and that they want to see seem like they're doing something because they want to fix it, but they can't fix this and they shouldn't be trying to fix it. It's not fixable. You have to move through it at your own pace. You can't stuff it down. And it's like the, you know, how are you? I'm fine. They because people want you to say, I'm fine.
00:55:38
Speaker
For themselves, not for us. Yes, yes, yes, yeah. Because it's... it's Because it makes them uncomfortable. Yeah, we yeah we're it's were we're constantly... And this is for everything. We're just in this society of everything's fine, I'm fine. that I don't know if you ever watch at Ross, right? Friends, I remember that, fine, I'm fine. There was like one of these episodes, was like, ooh, then it really comes out.
00:56:01
Speaker
But I'm not okay. And that is really the reality. We're always trying to... minimize our emotions just to make everybody else around us be okay rather than acknowledging our own pain. Exactly, exactly. And it's okay to say, you know, I'm having a rough day. I'm having a down, I still say I'm having a down day.
00:56:22
Speaker
I'm, you know, and I tell my friends, but I also have friends who just check in randomly. Like, how are you just thinking of you? And, you know, years later, I mean, this is what matters because I think also when people hit that one year mark and that one year anniversary, everyone's like, oh, good, I'm done. And, you know, often year two is harder because all of the shock and um kind of the fractured nature of that first year of trying to figure things out and put order to everything is over. And they think, okay, we're done. But after that, you're like, oh God, this is forever.
Challenges of the Second Year of Grief
00:57:00
Speaker
This is not like, I don't have any more things to do you know, ah like I've done it. Yeah. Logistic, all the business. yeah yeah All the business of all the administrative stuff. You've already set the bank account. You've already set that first year. You're probably busy just even doing that.
00:57:17
Speaker
You're yeah doing it. The next year is. Yeah. Yeah. Because then that's like, oh, this is it. This is forever. Yeah. I, you know, I, I find particularly, I find New Year's ah very difficult because I think that's another year without him. And every new year going to have is going to without him. Hmm.
00:57:34
Speaker
Yeah, it's a reminder of that. Yeah. samina it's been a beautiful conversation and your book is beautiful and again it's a very easy read and how you've been able to develop it with the chapters if somebody just wants to jump into a chapter of Definitely lead read the introduction so that you can get to know more of Samina's story and why she wrote this book. Of course, you're hearing it now. And then you can even jump to the different chapters if there's something specific that you want to know as you're accompanying someone else that is grieving the loss of a spouse. You'll be able to have some of these tools that you've so beautifully and eloquently been able to share with us today, a few of those. So thank you, Samina. Samina, I will be sharing your website and the show notes. Is there anything else regarding how people can reach you that we should say as well? Yes, have a contact. Where they can buy the book.
00:58:30
Speaker
Yeah, I have a contact form within my website, www.saminaberry.com. And there are links to the books, but both of my books right there, but they're both available on Amazon.
00:58:43
Speaker
Perfect. Perfect.
Resources and Encouragement for Community Support
00:58:44
Speaker
Thank you. And before we finish, is there something else you want to say to the listeners before we wrap up that I have not asked you? Yeah, you know, I would just say um the death is going to touch us all in one way or another. um And we can't always have our head in the sand. And for those who um are going through something or know someone who's going through something, I encourage you to just, you know, enter with an open heart and recognize that We're social creatures and we all need some sense of community and support. And um you know just take those steps to be present for one another because in the end, it's it's the presence of matters, that the presence that matters and it's the legacy you leave and the impact you make on the people in your life.
00:59:36
Speaker
Thank you. Thank you again, Samina Berry here with us today. Thank you.
00:59:46
Speaker
Thank you again so much for choosing to listen today. I hope that you can take away a few nuggets from today's episode that can bring you comfort in your times of grief.
00:59:59
Speaker
If so, it would mean so much to me if you would rate and comment on this episode. And if you feel inspired in some way to share it with someone who may need to hear this, please do so.
01:00:15
Speaker
Also, if you or someone you know has a story of grief and gratitude that should be shared so that others can be inspired as well, please reach out to me.
01:00:28
Speaker
And thanks once again for tuning in to Grief, Gratitude, and the Gray In Between podcast. Have a beautiful day.