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The Waves of Grief with Rev. Kate J. Meyer
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Rev. Kate J. Meyer, LPC, is an ordained minister and licensed professional counselor who has worked in both private practice and hospice care. She is passionate about bringing grief into the light so that all grievers know how to move forward in a healthy, life-giving manner. Kate is the author of the newly published Navigating the Waves of Grief and its predecessor Faith Doesn’t Erase Grief, along with The Red Couch and The Yellow Dress, the first two novels in her fiction series Lake Harbor Chronicles. Kate is a dog mom living with her husband in Western Michigan.
Facebook: @katejmeyer1 Instagram: @kate.j.meyer.author TikTok:@katejmeyerauthor www.katejmeyer.com
Show Highlights
• Finding the "Soul Spot": Reverend Kate Meyer shares how her path led her through youth ministry and seminary to healthcare chaplaincy and hospice, finally landing in bereavement care, which she recognizes as her "soul spot" where she feels truly energized.
• Faith Doesn't Erase Grief: Meyer discusses her book, Faith Doesn't Erase Grief, which addresses the guilt and conflict experienced by believers who feel they are "supposed to simply rejoice that my person is in heaven" instead of feeling sorrow. She emphasizes that grief is a "whole being experience" that must address physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual aspects.
• Spirituality vs. Religion: The interview explores the difference between religion and spirituality, noting that grief significantly impacts spiritual topics like connection, meaning, purpose, and identity, regardless of religious affiliation.
• Grief is Non-Linear: Discussing her most recent book, Navigating the Waves of Grief, Meyer offers an active, non-linear framework structured by the broad themes of Connection, Emotions, Identity, and "Through". She cautions against using prescriptive models like the stages of grief, which were written for the dying, not the grievers.
• The "Both and" of Loss: Meyer explains that grief is a "both and" experience, meaning it is natural and okay to move forward, find happiness, and still miss the person who "was supposed to be at that event".
• Advice for Helpers: Meyer offers concrete advice for those supporting grievers, urging them to name the deceased person, avoid using the word "still," and make concrete offers of help, as the "grieving brain just can't handle" vague offers.
Get in touch with Kendra Rinaldi https://www.griefgratitudeandthegrayinbetween.com/
Follow on Instagram and send me a message about what takeaways you had from listening to this episode.
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Transcript
Understanding Grief
00:00:00
Speaker
So now at every event they were supposed to be at, we're going to remember them and we're going to miss them. And it doesn't mean you're not moving forward. It doesn't mean you're not healing. It doesn't mean you're doing something wrong.
00:00:13
Speaker
It's very natural. The only time I get concerned is if you are truly locked in the past and you can't engage in the present and you can't even begin to dream about the future.
00:00:27
Speaker
And if that's where you find yourself, then I i i very sincerely encourage you to to find find a therapist um who is trained in grief.
Podcast Introduction
00:00:41
Speaker
Welcome to Grief, Gratitude, and the Gray in Between podcast. I'm your host, Kendra Rinaldi. This is a space to explore the full spectrum of grief, from the kind that comes with death to the kind that shows up in life's many transitions.
00:00:58
Speaker
Through stories and conversations, we remind each other that we're not alone. Your journey matters, and here we're figuring it out together. Let's dive right in to today's episode.
Purpose and Audience
00:01:18
Speaker
Let's start with a quick disclaimer. This podcast includes personal stories and perspectives on topics like grief, health, and mental wellness. The views expressed by guests are their own and may reflect individual experiences that are not meant as medical advice.
00:01:36
Speaker
As the host, I hold space for diverse voices, but that does not mean I endorse every viewpoint shared. Please listen with care and take what resonates with you.
00:01:47
Speaker
Thank you for tuning in and listening to today.
Meet Reverend Kate Meyer
00:01:51
Speaker
Today I have Reverend Kate Meyer. She is an ordained minister. She's a licensed professional counselor, and she is an author Her most recent book is called Navigating the Waves of Grief, and her other books are Faith Doesn't Erase Grief. The other one is titled The Red Couch and The Yellow Dress. Are those are those not are those two novels? Those two are novels, right? The Red Couch and The Yellow Dress are novels?
00:02:23
Speaker
Yes, and then the other ones are nonfiction. So welcome, Kate. Thank you. I'm happy to be here. Thanks for having me. Well, thank you. know, I didn't ask. do i Do I call you Kate? Do I call you Reverend Kate? Absolutely. No. Okay. Okay.
00:02:38
Speaker
yeah Okay, just making sure I'm not like stepping any boundaries or anything like that. It's like, you know, when you're when I'm interviewing somebody that's a doctor or things like that, I'm like, do you want me to call you doctor for this purposes? Or can I call you by your first name or last? What do you choose? So anyway, well, welcome, Kate. So tell us about your life. where This is how I like to start conversations because this is the easiest way for me in general is like,
00:03:04
Speaker
Where did you grow up and where do you live now? And then we'll go from there. Yeah, yeah. I grew up in Wisconsin and i moved all the way across the lake um and live in Michigan now.
00:03:18
Speaker
Did you row? Did you paddleboard across? How did you do that? just swam right across. um Yeah, I moved for college and then just never left. um Met my husband who had zero desire to ever leave the area. And I said, okay. um So, you know, I still, Wisconsin will always be home. That's just the way that it is.
00:03:40
Speaker
um But here I am. So yeah yeah I'm married. we have a We have a chocolate lab that rules our hearts and our home. and yeah That's your baby child, your fur baby. I have two fur babies. I have two to ah children and then I have two dogs. And now that my kids are pretty much adults, one's 18, the other one's almost 18. It's the attention. Most of my my my phone is all pictures of the two fur babies, which are right here. They're both right here next to us. Is your dog near you too?
00:04:15
Speaker
He is not. Oh, he's not. Okay. Okay. Mine, mine usually hang out wherever I'm at. Well, Kate, what led you to become
Journey to Chaplaincy
00:04:23
Speaker
a reverend? What was that story like? Like how did you, how did your path of faith lead you to become an ordained reverend? Yeah. Yeah.
00:04:32
Speaker
um It was a lot of push and pull. i I didn't see that for myself. I was not planning on that. I didn't have any desire to work in a church. And so, you know, growing up, it was like, well, what else does an ordained person do? So what was the point?
00:04:52
Speaker
um When I went to college, my thought was maybe youth ministry. ah And that, you know, that was all right for a while, but By, would say by junior year, I was like, no, I don't want to do that either. So I don't know what I'm going to do, but it's not going to be that either.
00:05:11
Speaker
And meanwhile, i had minored in English literature and just studied. You know, this thus began, I would say, this merging of faith and reading and writing that continued throughout seminary where I went kind of pushing, pushing and screaming.
00:05:32
Speaker
um But I went because I felt like that's what I was supposed to do. So I did. um And fell into health care chaplaincy.
Bereavement Care Insights
00:05:44
Speaker
Which I really love walking with people. In those kind of challenging moments, um I've worked in hospitals and a variety of extended care facilities and eventually found my way into hospice care.
00:05:59
Speaker
And that's led me to bereavement care within hospice care. And that is where I had this moment of kind of this, I call it my soul spot.
00:06:14
Speaker
Bereavement care is my soul spot where I went, oh, this is why i have the degrees that I have, the the experiences I've had to this point, why I went through the education I went through,
00:06:30
Speaker
um Now I get it. Now I see. This is why I'm here. um and and it yeah it' be I love that because it's when you end up landing and in those soul spots, as you said, in life, it really is because you've kind of walked along life and it just leads you in a direction like we really sometimes don't know. But as long as we're treading forward, it ah treading eventually we end up.
00:07:02
Speaker
landing. And then there's these kind of confirmations to these little things that come in or validations of what we're doing. So what were some of those for you when you started then doing bereavement care?
00:07:17
Speaker
What were some of these things that you're like the aha kind of yeah revelations per se that you're like, I am in my sweet spot kind of of where I'm supposed to be?
00:07:28
Speaker
Yeah, I, for me, it's a pattern of when I feel energized by something that quote unquote should be draining, right? That, that for a lot of people maybe would be exhausting.
00:07:42
Speaker
um and And other forms of therapy had been exhausting. When I would do other types of therapy for a solid day, it would be tiring, but bereavement care was energizing for me.
00:07:55
Speaker
um And also then just kind of seeing how much spirituality was a natural part of the grief process that I had never really considered before.
00:08:09
Speaker
And so then having this series of clients who needed to talk about those things um and had a desire to do so From with someone who had training in that area, instead of just kind of, you know, their own, their own beliefs.
00:08:30
Speaker
um Those were the moments I said, Oh, this is, this is great. I can see how this all comes together now. can relate so much to what you said about feeling energized because that's usually people aren't like, aren't you drained after you, you know, either record podcasts or after you do quote, I'm a grief coach. And so those type of accompaniments for other people, it could be draining. And for some, it is not. And that's pretty much like one of the ways that I figured I'm like, Oh no, this is the right This is the right space for me too. With with that, with the when you were doing then hospice care, because I want to lead into what led you then to write your books.
00:09:15
Speaker
and And then you can talk about the first one too, if you don't mind. When you're accompanying someone in that in those moments, for some then having someone that is faith-based and can lead them in that path because they are themselves as either they're the ones being faced with their death or accompanying them, the families, that's helpful. Have you also...
Spirituality vs Religion in Grief
00:09:38
Speaker
encountered situations in which it is not the case, like especially like in hospital type of care, there are you know a lot of times people that may not have a belief system about what happens as a spiritual you know ah belief about what happens after they die or anything like that. And how do you navigate those encounters as well? Because it's it's, I think it's something very unique in each kind of way and respecting what the person that's, bere you know, going through bereavement is going through and relating to that.
00:10:12
Speaker
Could you talk about how you accompany someone that may have that perspective? Yeah, so this work is how I really came to understand in a new and deeper way the difference between religion and spirituality.
00:10:29
Speaker
And that there is a spiritual component to self that
00:10:37
Speaker
people have that is, you know, that requires zero religious connection at all, right? um Zero religious familiarity at all.
00:10:49
Speaker
And that's any religion, any religious system whatsoever. um And that's, you know, it's it's things like connection and meaning and purpose and identity, right? These are all spiritual topics that are impacted significantly by grief, um by grievers, and then, you know, by by people trying to reconcile their own end of life, they're also coming to a point where they're dealing with things like forgiveness and reconciliation and um what has my purpose been and what is my purpose in these final months, weeks, days?
00:11:32
Speaker
um What is left resolved and unresolved, right? So um really helping people shift away from what What is beyond the religion? And if I can do that for you, I can help walk you through the religious parts of it, if that's important to you.
00:11:53
Speaker
ah We can also call in your people, right? If you have people that that are, whether it's a pastor or elders or whomever, we can bring those people in. But these other things that also include those bigger questions of
00:12:11
Speaker
Perhaps this is something I've professed a belief about my whole life, and now I'm face to face with it. And i don't know if I believe it. um
00:12:25
Speaker
That's a big one, right? a and And same for the griever. I've professed my whole life a belief in heaven and Throughout their dying process, I believed my loved one was going to be in heaven. And now that they've died, I don't i don't know what that means to me anymore. i don't I don't really know that that's comforting to me anymore.
00:12:47
Speaker
um And then what does that do? Because now that's taken a foundation that has given them hope and strength and comfort, and it is shaken and maybe even cracked.
00:12:59
Speaker
And so these are parts of grief that I think A lot of people don't either consider or have time to consider. and unfortunately, a lot of people don't know about until they're in it.
00:13:15
Speaker
And then once you're in it, it's time to face it.
The Nature of Grief
00:13:20
Speaker
No, i I love what you just said regarding even just our faith being either question yeah put into question in those moments of hardship or in other cases, people that end up diving deep into faith in those moments in which they might have not believed in something or whatever, right? It's like you do not know until you live it. And you do not know even how, even if you've gone through grief before, you don't even know how you're going to
00:13:50
Speaker
how are you going to live the next grief experience either? It is very, even because we are constantly evolving as well. And then the relationship or the, whatever it is that happens, because grief can happen in other situations in life, not just around death. So therefore in these other dynamics, we don't know how we're going to react to that. I always say we're, we really can't be experts even in our own grief because we do not know how we're going to be.
00:14:18
Speaker
Right. So it's a very, very unique. Now for you, Kate, have you experienced grief yourself and share with us a little bit about that experience?
00:14:33
Speaker
Yeah, was very blessed to have all four of my grandparents well into my 20s, which was very unique, I was finding.
00:14:45
Speaker
um You know, to me, it was very normal because that was my experience, right? And then that's college. I'm like, oh, this is not everybody's experience. And then it was it was kind of a rapid succession. You know, every...
00:15:01
Speaker
a year to two years, um I lost them in that kind of quick succession. um And what that was, you know, just kind of that disorienting
00:15:17
Speaker
process of, but then also as as a caregiver, um, you know Trying to take care of it Both grandpas died first, so kind of walking alongside the grandmas and watching them um and of navigate their worlds after a grandpa died and then you know alongside my my parents as they navigate their you know, all of that.
00:15:44
Speaker
But then also dealing with and of my own grief as that changed. And I had different relationships with each of the four grandparents. And oh, that plays a huge part, right? The relationship to each person and how you get. Yes. Yes. And for different phases of life, you know, one set, one set I saw more just naturally because of geography um up until college and the other set I saw college and beyond.
00:16:13
Speaker
So they knew very different parts of me. And so I had very different relationships with them. So. um Yeah, it. And then ah a friend.
00:16:25
Speaker
um of the family um who I babysat for when he was little um died very suddenly very tragically in a hiking accident and it
00:16:43
Speaker
rocked me, still does apparently, um because it catches me off guard like this, but his name is Justin and he, um his, his death was the one that made me go, you know, no matter how much you learn, no matter how much you know, no matter how much you teach, write, it just is so, it's such a complicated, messy, unpredictable,
00:17:14
Speaker
beast of a thing. um that sometimes it doesn't make sense. Sometimes it, you know, it it was a combination for Justin. It was a combination of things because um I didn't, it's not like I had this ongoing continued connection with him, but I had an ongoing continued connection with his mom and his sister and had seen him just a few months before and, you know, could feel their pain and all of those things.
00:17:44
Speaker
But also just the sense of, um, watching his journey of all that he had overcome and then, you know, life ending too soon and all of those horrific things.
00:17:57
Speaker
um
00:18:00
Speaker
So trying to sit with What it is to be a grief educator and a grief author and a grief therapist and then have this massive, like, it just, it just knocks you down, right? You can, when you do what we do, it's easy to
00:18:25
Speaker
kind of fool ourselves for a little bit and think we got it. And then no, no, we don't. that That's it. It does. And that's the thing. And that is the, honestly, also the beauty of it too. Yes, it is Grief is this big beast of of an emotion, like you said, but it is also it's,
00:18:48
Speaker
And again, it's so unpredictable. One, because we do not know when it's going to hit. And like even just the name of your book, Navigating the Waves of Grief, it is like a wave. You really cannot even be as prepared. i had ah a rabbi and author also on the on the podcast, and he kind of called it like going into the... ocean, you're going to go surfing, you've got all your stuff, right? But you even as prepared as you may be to go onto those waves, you do not know when a riptide is going to be coming in and from underneath, right? You really do not. We have the tools, we have all these things, and it's good to
00:19:25
Speaker
Be informed, have tools, have books, have things that you normally do when you grieve, whether it's walking, writing, whatever it is, talking, whatever, praying, whatever that is.
00:19:38
Speaker
But again, you do not know
00:19:43
Speaker
ah the the weather conditions when the wave hits and how you are going to be in that exact moment as to how you're going to navigate it. So I i find it fascinating as well as surprising to see that that is something we all go through. I just think it's a...
00:20:07
Speaker
Yeah, I don't i don't know. i i I don't, I don't feel, I have my relationship with grief is not that of like, as an enemy, because it is so much part in in our life that I don't see it as an enemy, just part of another emotion that we go through. So, but still like, I mean, it's a heavy one, it's a kid it's good but it does crack you open. Thank you for sharing that about Justin. How old was Justin at the time of his passing, of his death?
00:20:36
Speaker
I always get this wrong. I think 32. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. yeah So these are your personal experiences with it, seeing aging grandparents die, then somebody young and that also hitting close to home because you'd also babysat him. So it's like helped raise this young man pretty much, you know, and then not raised, but you know what I mean, they influenced in some shape or form.
00:21:02
Speaker
in in that and that that hit differently. So when you started to write and you your first book, tell us what prompted you to start writing about the the faith in the grieving process? Yeah.
00:21:21
Speaker
Yeah.
Writing 'Faith Doesn't Erase Grief'
00:21:22
Speaker
so Faith Doesn't Erase Grief came out of this series of clients that I was seeing that would come in and kind of hang their head as they acknowledged their grief. And so as I explored that this theme would reveal itself of, I feel that as a Christian believer, I'm supposed to simply rejoice that my person is in heaven.
00:21:50
Speaker
And I thought, what's happening? I don't, how did we get here? How did we get to this place? Um, So and then simultaneously, I would have other believers who would say, I know that that's not right, but I can't find anything that helps me walk through it.
00:22:10
Speaker
um So, you know, then I started to kind of do a deep dive into what was out there. And um I saw a lot of resources that kind of helped get people to that place, resolving people to heaven, just just focus on heaven.
00:22:28
Speaker
um And that just skips so much. um It just skips too much. And so i could relate again, because it's kind of almost like invalid. It's not that you even if you believe that, that's fine. But what happened? It's about the griever in that moment to validating what they're feeling. Yes, you can't. And then that guilt that can happen to. But wait, if I'm supposed to feel this way, because this is what what whatever scripture or whatever belief religious beliefs I have about what happens after. We die, say about the people like, yes, it's OK, like to feel that way. But your emotions are also in a feeling that you miss them. Right. And so it's like we dismiss this part sometimes when we come from this faith informed way of viewing death as well. Right. Yeah.
00:23:16
Speaker
Yeah. And I, um one of my clients just came to mind who was so, his guilt was centered around the fact that he was longing for heaven more to see his wife again than to meet Jesus. And walking with him through that to just normalize, like, yeah, uh-huh.
00:23:39
Speaker
Because you know her and you love her and you've never actually met him. So, you know. That's okay. That makes sense. And I guarantee God's grace is big enough for all of this. You will get back there.
00:23:53
Speaker
But right now, you you are trying to move through a time when the person you lived life with every day for 30 plus years is no longer physically present.
00:24:06
Speaker
And you have to take the time to move through that. And do so in a way that is that is honest and true to yourself and true to your experience.
00:24:21
Speaker
So faith doesn't erase grief is this very intentional intersection of faith and, you know, current grief psychology as current as possible, right? It's always changing and growing and evolving um because there are truths that we have.
00:24:40
Speaker
Psychology is a very real thing. And that's another piece of it. There are branches of religions that dismiss faith. that, right? Science is real. There's a reason that phrase is out there.
00:24:54
Speaker
ah So it's ah it's a very intentional pairing of the two where we take this often ignored spiritual aspect of self and say, grief is a whole being experience, physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual.
00:25:11
Speaker
And in order to move forward and move through We have to address all of those things. you know We have to make sure that our doctor knows what we're going through so that we can, if there are are places where we're at risk or if something new develops, our doctor knows this might be and expression of our grief.
00:25:34
Speaker
If we're taking an antidepressant, we need make if we're taking an antidepressant we need to make sure the prescriber is aware that we're in a grief cycle because something might need to be temporarily adjusted, right? theyre These are just very natural things that we do.
00:25:48
Speaker
And the same needs to go for our spirituality because our relationship with God might change. It might change for a short term. It might change for a long term.
00:26:03
Speaker
And we need to have the space for that to happen. And so i wanted people to have this the place to go where if they couldn't talk to their own pastor elder whomever that they could go somewhere to say it's all right it's okay if you're doubting it's okay if you're angry at god it's okay if you're wondering if all of this is just a made-up
00:26:40
Speaker
fable right it like all of it is okay um because in order to release it you have to let yourself say it and think it because the longer you try to hold it back the bigger it's going to get and the longer it's going to last so you to find a way to express it that you feel okay about Yes, because then not only when you are grieving and you're already dealing with those emotions and how they can affect your, like you even just your health, your mental health, your physical health, but then also aside from that, holding on to the this other turmoil that you might be feeling of this juxtaposition of your beliefs and you don't have a way of also sharing that, that in itself can also add more strain and stress to your body because you're not allowing it out.
00:27:33
Speaker
Yeah. So it's like a big, big combination. Yeah. So with, with that book, when did you write that one, by the way, when did you write? That was published in 2021. Yeah.
00:27:45
Speaker
one Okay. And, and then that's terrible. I feel like it's just okay. No, no, it's okay. It's like, it's like, it's somewhere around that time is somewhere within the pandemic style. When we were like during that time, a lot of times things are like a blur in our, I, I feel time is a blur at times with certain yeah things, but
00:28:11
Speaker
Hi, I just wanted to take a quick pause and ask that if this episode is speaking to you, I'd love for you to subscribe to my newsletter. Just go to my web website, Grief, Gratitude, and the Gray in Between, and you will be receiving some of my newsletters I send every probably couple of weeks.
00:28:33
Speaker
Also, if someone has popped into your mind and you feel that this is something that would resonate with, please send them this episode right now because it may just be what they needed to hear.
00:28:49
Speaker
Now let's get back to the show.
New Book: 'Navigating the Waves of Grief'
00:28:54
Speaker
And then your most recent book, then tell us about that. And it's, it's written in a way that there's also like a work workbook type of elements within it too. So tell take us into the structure then of the navigating the waves of grief, healing prompts and reflections to move you forward Yeah, so I think of um faith doesn't erase grief as the kind of the passive approach and navigating the ways of grief as the active approach because we need both.
00:29:29
Speaker
um And so navigating the waves of grief is structured into broad stream themes of connection, emotions, identity, and then something that I call through.
00:29:43
Speaker
um And because those those themes, I think, kind of capture the main things that grievers encounter.
00:29:54
Speaker
um You know, connection to self, the divine and others. Emotions, obviously, right. all We're kind of all over the map and adults just typically aren't good at emotions.
00:30:08
Speaker
um
00:30:11
Speaker
when we When we are told to stop having tantrums, we tend to internalize that as emotions are bad and then we just stop. We just kind of stop. So um we have to relearn what our emotions are and how we process them and release them.
00:30:27
Speaker
And identity. are Our identity is changed inevitably in grief. ay So we have to take time to explore that.
00:30:40
Speaker
And purpose is tied into that. And then through is this idea of what does it mean to know that we're in this dark place?
00:30:51
Speaker
We're in this challenging place. But there is there is ah place we're going to. We're we're getting through it. So we're not not moving on. We're not leaving behind, right? Because that that would suggest that you just forget the person or stop loving the person or somehow are unchanged by all of this.
00:31:14
Speaker
But that along the way, you're learning how to take with you the pieces of them that you want to. Leave behind the pieces of the story that are painful or were harmful or don't serve you anymore.
00:31:31
Speaker
um And that on the other side of through, you have learned to re-engage in life, um have figured out who you are now and um how this version of you continues on and um hopefully are a little better prepared for the next round, whatever, as you indicated, right? Whether that's human death or death.
00:32:00
Speaker
something else, another kind of death or retirement or divorce or moving of these changes. that That is so valuable. And I love that it's in these broad, broad type of sections per there. And, and also not in a linear, there's, it's there's not that linear thing that we see And can you can you share, as as I'm saying linear, how this idea that we're all very familiar with Elizabeth Kubler-Ross's book of the stages of grief, and and you brought as many of us know, it's written more for the person that's confronted with death, not for the grievers.
Approaches to Grief Models
00:32:48
Speaker
But what I've noticed in general, and and i it's that sometimes it's just taken seriously
00:32:56
Speaker
literally, and then people end up thinking that this is how they as a bereaver has to navigate their grief. In your accompaniment in hospice care, how how does this concept of people thinking that this is actually something they have to apply for themselves either help them or not help them in their grief, like when they feel like have a manual per se?
00:33:26
Speaker
Yeah, I think for some people, it's comforting to have what they would consider it to be a manual. um And so for those people, i do try to step in and just and give them first of all, give them that background that that it absolutely did come from studies and conversations with people dying, not with the grieving.
00:33:47
Speaker
Right. Very different. Very different experience. um But also to talk with them about, you know, if if you lock yourself in.
00:33:59
Speaker
Do those five things. um David Kessler has since added what he would call this meaning, the meaning one meaning. um If you lock yourself into those things, you might miss out or you might feel, um and don't know, I would call it kind of itchy, um uncomfortable, unsettled.
00:34:21
Speaker
um And you miss out on some growth and you might not fully be able to to get where you need to get to do all the work you need to do.
00:34:34
Speaker
I also sometimes will just tell people, you know, if if you need a model, right? So caution number one, there is no prescription to do this. You can't, there just isn't. Like there's no, any tool that you buy, if you if it is telling you this is how you do it, they're lying.
00:34:54
Speaker
So that's not what's happening. can't Yes. so you won't find that in either of my books. um These are simply ways that you can look at it.
00:35:06
Speaker
Frames, if you will. Yes. Frameworks. Frameworks. um But so then I will tell people, you know, there are a lot of models out there. um If you need a model of helping people.
00:35:20
Speaker
if it helps you to have a container or a frame put this in, I get that because grief is a time in which everything feels out of control.
00:35:31
Speaker
And so if we can give something a name, if we can figure out how I can tackle it and get some control over it, it makes me feel a little bit better. And I understand that. So, you know, but look at the other models because When something is numbered one through five or six, we tend to think that it's going to be this lovely progression where I just move through them. And then when I move from one to the next, I'm all done with the one.
00:36:02
Speaker
But you're not. um You're going to vacillate between them. You're going to cycle back. um And they're not going to be evenly spaced. Right.
00:36:13
Speaker
Uh, so some of those might not even show up to there. Yeah. You may never feel anger. Maybe not. Maybe you will never be trade, you know, trade, you know, trading, wanting to, what is it that, um, negotiating with, yeah. Bargaining, you know, stage, you, you know, you don't know. Yeah.
00:36:31
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So I, in Faith Does a New Race Grief, I throw out a phasic model, free three phases, early, middle, and lasting grief, just to kind of give, again, very broad, very, very broad parameters.
00:36:52
Speaker
um And what I have learned to explain is that even though I give kind of these broad timeframes, you know, that early grief would be from the beginning to anywhere from one month to three months um and on and on and on, is that none of it begins until you're able to begin doing the work.
00:37:20
Speaker
So if there's something that delays the ability to start doing the work, trauma, um in deaths that result in court cases, um if you're waiting for Emmy report, to be released, if you're dealing with a disenfranchised death where nobody talks about it, right, from STI or or
00:37:52
Speaker
um i don't know or or ah even death by suicide Even death by suicide at times too, because there's so much stigma that then sometimes people are not even allowed.
00:38:04
Speaker
Yes. And mass mass casualty events, right? um There too. um We talk a big, broad picture, but often those individual people kind of get lost a little bit in the shuffle. Yeah.
00:38:20
Speaker
So until you're able to get through all the calls for news interviews and all the police reports and work through, you know, when when there's a trauma component, you got to kind of start the trauma therapy before you can start the grief therapy.
00:38:37
Speaker
um So you're not constantly re-triggering retriggering yourself with the grief. so um until you can start, get through all of that, only then.
00:38:51
Speaker
can you really kind of, you know, get moving into the grief work? And so that's why it can be, i i've worked with people who have said, you know, this death happened three years ago, and I feel like I'm just now getting into early grief. Like, well, yes.
00:39:08
Speaker
Yes, because your child died, and you are a parent, and you had to parent other people. um And your body had a very significant reaction.
00:39:19
Speaker
So your health, you had a major major health health crisis. So yes. You're just starting. That's why that whole aspect of the time heals. That's not, that's a, that's a, that's a, that one I can say is not a real, that's not a real thing because just even what you just said three years later is when somebody just even is starting to grieve. Cause even if it's not traumatic, like even just that business, that all the stuff that people have to do at the beginning
00:39:51
Speaker
Like if it's a spouse that died, then dealing with all the the bit yeah all ah the administrative things that come into play. It does not give them room to start the real true grieving process because they're just dealing with the the business of death type of things, right? So yes, there is just there's so many layers. So it is not just one.
The Importance of Emotional Validation
00:40:14
Speaker
one little thing we could tie with a bow and say, here you go. This is what you could do. But like you said, for some people, it does help to have some kind of a framework, an idea of something that is quote unquote normal within grief. um i I think that that's probably the most important is validating that almost all the emotions that show up are valid because that is that person's experience and that's okay.
00:40:44
Speaker
If it shows up, it's valid. Exactly. Exactly. but Let's talk about then the workbook framework. So tell us about the elements that are there in these aspects. There's some interactive elements within that. And what are these elements that the that the person reading then the book would go through?
00:41:06
Speaker
Yeah, so um within each of the themes, ah each each of the four sections is filled with a kind of random, as far as the amounts are concerned, um grouping of reflections and toolkits. And so the reflections are, i i take, you know, just a very small quote from the first book.
00:41:31
Speaker
and And zero in on it and just kind of dive deep into it. Give a little reflection on it. And then every reflection includes an action challenge where I'm asking people to do either their own deeper dive or um something that might be, it can be an immediate action.
00:41:57
Speaker
i think there's, i don't think there is one. At least one where it's, you know, put a calendar reminder somewhere in your phone to come back to this one in a month and see where things have gone, see how things have changed.
00:42:15
Speaker
um And ah that some of them also have kind of next level challenges where it's for those who are feeling strong and courageous, they can go the next level.
00:42:28
Speaker
um There are some that do have some scripture. Um, but I would say for navigating the waves of grief and really for, um, faith doesn't erase grief as well.
00:42:41
Speaker
It is, you know, I'm, I'm ordained in a Christian tradition. So, um, that's, you know, that's, that's the framework of your writing. Cause that's who you are as a writer. Right. Yeah.
00:42:53
Speaker
Yeah. I don't like using that word cause it's so, don't like what it means these days, but, um, But i I do think it's very broadly applicable um across perspectives. So um then so there's that's the reflections. And then there's also these toolkit pages that really are intentional creative actions. And I say in the introduction,
00:43:21
Speaker
to to quell any anxiety that I could feel even as I was writing the introduction. Fear not, those of you who are not artists, because I am not an artist.
00:43:33
Speaker
Anytime I mention drawing, you may write, you may cut things out of a magazine. You may, you know, I don't care how you do it.
00:43:44
Speaker
Make it your own, right? um But also write all over the book. um You know, years ago, there was that journal that came out that was like, don't know, Destroy This Journal or something.
00:43:56
Speaker
I know. That was the title of it. That's so cool. Yeah. write in this book. That's what it's for. um Use it. And ah so those toolkits range from, those are those are very focused on the individual theme that you're in. And I, you know, i do, and talking about nonlinear, right? I encourage readers to jump wherever.
00:44:24
Speaker
so um go at whatever pace you want to go at. So are you going to do it every day? Are you going to do it once a week? Are you going to, what works for you?
00:44:35
Speaker
um Do you want to do a whole section a And you have to change, and you might start that way. You might start with a section and then the next week you feel like just doing a page ah a week and that's okay. That's okay. And if you open to a page and start to read it and go, no,
00:44:53
Speaker
Nope, that's okay. Either close it or flip to a different page, right? There are a few that will say, um if you've already done this, you know, this month, don't do this yet.
00:45:11
Speaker
There's one that says, this is your absolute last one. Don't do this right now unless this is your last page. um But other than that,
00:45:22
Speaker
jump around has a big like, do not enter until you've already fully, ah you've already completed of the arrest. Well, it's a good safe warning, because if somebody does open to that, and then they feel like, oh, wait a minute, this is a little overwhelming, but it you so you're giving them a safe warning that that particular chapter is when you've kind of already seasoned your way through doing some of the other challenges. ah versus say Don't jump into the last Okay. That is so good. That's so practical. It's practical and it's good to have these tools again, not only for ourselves, but having them handy in your home. Like even if you are not going, the the person listening right now is not going through something this moment, having something handy that you can give to someone else in that moment that they're going through, it's so
00:46:14
Speaker
helpful because a lot of times we feel, even for myself, I'm like, I have a lot of grief books, right? But then even when, i mean, because I've interviewed a lot of people, but when someone goes through something, I'm like, do I give them a book? Even that, do I give it, do I send them a podcast that they want to listen to? Do I give them a book? Do I get, send them a quote? Do I give them a call? Like, it's so hard to know sometimes i where people are in their grief to know even how to approach the the tool that you present. So it's so important to, if you're supporting someone, first listen to them and see what they need before you offer something. At least that's helpful for me. I don't, do you find that?
00:47:02
Speaker
Yes. And when you offer offer something concrete, right? the The let me know if there's anything I can do for you is just too vague for a griever. The grieving brain just can't handle that. They're never going to call you because it's too overwhelming.
00:47:20
Speaker
um You know, so if you have something concrete to offer, i have this book that worked really well for me. it tapped into, this is why I liked it, right?
00:47:31
Speaker
A, B, and C. you Would you like to see it? um I would love to set up a meal train for you. Can I do that? I, you know, can I come fold your laundry? and Whatever.
00:47:44
Speaker
Concrete offers. um Let me pick up your groceries for you. i don't know. Yeah, and a lot of times it is. It is daunting, I think, more as someone walking alongside something that is grieving as to how to approach.
00:47:59
Speaker
It happens to me and I'm like, I feel I'm really comfortable with grief, yet ever even during that moment, I'm like, what do I do? We're always like, oh, what's the best? or it's like And we still will probably mess up. We probably will say that.
00:48:15
Speaker
Is there anything I could do? Let me know. I've said it plenty of times, even though I know myself that I'll probably never take somebody up on that offer if they say it. But yeah. So give something concrete and give something also that is natural to you in the way that you would support.
00:48:30
Speaker
someone, right? Like, like if you don't if you're not a chef, if you don't offer to cook the most amazing lasagna, if that's not your wheelhouse, you could buy from the grocery store or something like that. Yeah. So it's like, that's ah amazing. Now, Kate, is there something I have not asked you that you want to make sure that you leave with our listeners? Something regarding...
00:48:56
Speaker
this topic of grief, regret what comes up that we have not talked about that you want to make sure that you leave our listeners with.
Supporting Grievers
00:49:04
Speaker
You can, and I will do that. dad dad i won't do that. yeah You know, I think, I think for me, the biggest thing is if you are a helper, right? If you are here,
00:49:24
Speaker
Because you are helping someone through grief. Be the helper who allows the griever to take a break from their grief.
00:49:39
Speaker
Be the helper who, when you reach out to them, says, are we talking about your person today or are we not? Be the helper who says the person's name because people stop saying it.
00:49:53
Speaker
um be the helper who doesn't let the elephant in the room be the elephant in the room. Just name it for them. um We're coming up to the holiday season and grief is big no matter how long it's been during the holiday season. So be the one that normalizes that. Try to try to remove the word still from your vocabulary when you're talking to a griever.
00:50:23
Speaker
um because the person, think the best way I can explain it, why we don't ever quote unquote get over grief is because for every life event, for every holiday,
00:50:39
Speaker
The person who died was supposed to be at that event. They just were. So now at every event they were supposed to be at, we're going to remember them and we're going to miss them.
00:50:52
Speaker
And it doesn't mean you're not moving forward. It doesn't mean you're not healing. It doesn't mean you're doing something wrong. It's very natural. And the only time I get concerned is if you are truly locked in the past and you can't engage in the present and you can't even begin to dream about the future. And if that's where you find yourself, then I i i very sincerely encourage you to to find find a therapist who is trained in grief.
00:51:25
Speaker
They're not all trained in grief. Find one who is trained in grief. um Because you don't, I don't want you trapped there. You can, you can keep your person with you. I think that's usually the big fear.
00:51:38
Speaker
They still can come with you, even when you continue to live in the present and dream of the future. That was a lot of things, Kendra. Sorry. I love it. they all are love it. I love it. And that is so important because that's another part that sometimes people do feel guilty when they are feeling happy, even when they're still grieving, you know, and they're missing. They feel like, oh, wait, I shouldn't be feeling joy right now in the holidays because my person's not here or, you know, and this this conflict of emotion. No, it's it's okay to be in the present and still know that,
00:52:13
Speaker
that you could still be missing them even if you are happy. It's not one. Emotions are not one or. It's not one or. It's one and. It can be both. And that, I think, is the biggest thing I've been able to comprehend amidst my journey in my in my life.
00:52:32
Speaker
I call grief the both and. Right? grief is Grief is both and all over the place. Mm-hmm. I don't, I can't think of a time when grief is either or it's right both and.
00:52:44
Speaker
Both and I love that. Well, Kate, it was an honor having you again. This is Kate Meyer. Kate, how do people find you and find your book? And if they want to connect with you?
00:52:56
Speaker
Yes. um I would just go to Kate J. Meyer M u i E Y R.com and everything is there. the The books, the contact, it's all there.
00:53:09
Speaker
Yeah, that's perfect. Thank you so much again. And again, yeah for her two books, you will see them on her website. But again, the most recent one, Navigating the Waves of Grief, Healing Prompts and Reflections to Move You Forward. And you'll see again her links at the show notes. So thank you again, Kate.
00:53:31
Speaker
Thanks, Kendra. Thank you.
00:53:35
Speaker
thank you again so much for choosing to listen today. I hope that you can take away a few nuggets from today's episode that can bring you comfort in your times of grief.
00:53:48
Speaker
If so, it would mean so much to me if you would rate and comment on this episode. And if you feel inspired in some way to share it with someone who may need to hear this, please do so.
00:54:03
Speaker
Also, if you or someone you know has a story of grief and gratitude that should be shared so that others can be inspired as well, please reach out to me.
00:54:16
Speaker
And thanks once again for tuning in to Grief, Gratitude, and the Gray In Between podcast. Have a beautiful day.