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Starsky and Hutch/Sherlock Holmes
8 Plays1 day ago
TV and book spoilers abound! We’re watching Season 1 Episode 21 of Starsky and Hutch “A Coffin for Starsky” and reading the first Sherlock Holmes novella “A Study in Scarlet”. What is Psych if not a crime fighting duo?! We take a look at some of the original duos and discuss their partnerships and friendships. Who knows, without these duos, would Shawn and Gus exist??? We’re talking masculinity, friendship, detective tropes, and more! So, grab your favorite pantyhose and join Kylie and Skyler on this new episode of Phsysics 101!
Want to keep up with us and new episode drops? Join us on Instagram and Tumblr @phsysics101podcast.
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Transcript
00:00:20
Speaker
All
Introduction to Versace 6101 and 'Psych'
00:00:21
Speaker
right. everyone, and welcome to Versace 6101, where we discuss everything about the world of psych and the antics of Sean and Gus in Sunny Santa Barbara. I'm Skylar, and this is my partner, Huggy Bear Brown. And today we'll be talking about Starsky and Hutch, season one, I believe episode
Exploring 'A Coffin for Starsky' Episode
00:00:39
Speaker
21. Is that the one we decided? I think that's right.
00:00:41
Speaker
And A Study in Scarlet, the original Sherlock Holmes novel. Yes. Yeah. what was What was the name of the episode? like um the Death of Starsky or the murder of Starsky? A coffin for Starsky? A coffin. Yes, I think you're right. Yeah, it's kind of interesting just dropping into this show. Yes. With no background. But I do feel like I didn't have trouble really. I mean, other than just not knowing the cast of characters. And I was curious if like that scientist lady, like, like is she always here? or is this Yeah. Is she just here because her dad is involved in this? Yeah. took me a second, even in the beginning to be like, okay, which one's Starsky? Which one's Hodge? Because they weren't. Now that you say that, well, I guess Starsky was the one who was yeah with the attempted murder, but i like I wouldn't, had that not been in the title, I probably wouldn't. Correct. No, I agree. Okay.
00:01:39
Speaker
You don't need to know. It's true. They are a package deal. Yeah. It was fun. I do think, and I don't, again, not having watched any of the rest of it, but it being early, like an earlier procedural, I wonder if it was more episodic because I think the serialization of television in general came kind of gradually. Yeah. So I could see that, you know, where you could just turn on the TV and if it, you know, whatever was on, you could just kind of tune into. Yeah. Without needing to know a whole story.
00:02:12
Speaker
Right. Yeah.
Setting and Authenticity of 'Starsky and Hutch'
00:02:14
Speaker
It was really fun. So if you've never seen Starsky and Hutch, detective show, two detectives, hence detective show, um like partners in the seventies the Were they in New York City? Where were they? no I actually looked into this and I believe they never say. Okay. In the city. and There's no like specific place that they're in.
00:02:38
Speaker
Okay. They're in a town. the oh they're in the fictional Bay City. All right. Hang on. Now the I just have a Wikipedia page. Momentary pause.
00:02:49
Speaker
Okay, yeah I guess the fictional Bay City, California. Much of it was shot on location in Los Angeles Beach community of San Pedro. Oh, that's fun. Yeah. Yeah, I like the idea of things actually being shot in a legitimate place. I feel like it doesn't happen all that often anymore. And i feel like you miss a lot of like the real texture of life when everything starts turning into like green screens and or blue screens or whatever color they use now.
00:03:20
Speaker
Yeah. Practical effects. Oh, is that what they're called? Just like everyday things? Practical effects? That's not, no. Practical effects are just like when they do it, like like if for an effect, like and just not doing it like the Siege yet. Oh, when they do it for real.
00:03:37
Speaker
Yeah. Or like in Star Wars, you know how they had a lot of miniatures and stuff? ah Yes, yes, yes. Like that would be like practical effects. Okay. So it wasn't wasn't done with a computer. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
00:03:48
Speaker
But I feel like that's a similar similar feeling about that. like it ah feel like you know it I feel like it looks better when they do do it stuff practically. I agree.
Portrayal of Masculinity in the 70s
00:04:02
Speaker
Yeah. There was a lot in this that I feel like we, or a lot of this was very much in line with some of the things that we've talked about, like the meandering. There were some shots of just like zoom ins on the two men's face or them like hugging and clutching each other or like that fight scene outside the the ah video set. And they're like,
00:04:25
Speaker
literally just flying through the air and like kicking each other and throwing someone into a trash can and I was like oh I love this just like long shots of something instead of immediate back and forth yeah yeah yeah you mentioned them like hugging each other I feel like the most interesting take away for me also from looking at the wikipedia page i'm just gonna read this whole section do it says in contrast to police characters on ustv in prior years starsky and hutch were open with physical gestures of friendly slash brotherly affection toward one another often declaring that they trusted each other in an us against the world type sense
00:05:04
Speaker
While likely, quote, normal by American social standards since the 90s, such body language conflicted with 70s norms of emotionally restrained masculinity. Hmm.
00:05:17
Speaker
In a show documentary tape made during the show's run that can be found on YouTube, the narrator intones that some Hollywood industry types referred to the characters as, quote, French kissing primetime homos. what yeah and so i thought that was like really interesting yeah like how a show like this could be sort of radical in how it portrays masculinity for like the kind of hyper masculine characters of right like cops detectives like that kind of thing which was very familiar audiences but the this
00:05:51
Speaker
allowing them to be close and touch each other and stuff, that being really revolutionary is is very
Emotional Impact of Crime on Protagonists
00:05:58
Speaker
interesting. And I feel like that, you know, maybe without Starsky and Hutch, we wouldn't have the intimacy of Sean and Gus. This is very true. Yeah. So I thought i was very, very interesting ah point of their legacy. Yeah.
00:06:16
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, it's it's interesting to think about like what's a appropriate in like quote unquote what's ah appropriate in one setting might not be like appropriate in another setting. Like for example, I'm sure if you if you are a police officer and you have a partner similar to like Lassie and Jules, after you've worked together for a really long time, like you are just bonded. You are just very close. You are just like, you know, family in a way. So I'm sure after a long time working with someone,
00:06:47
Speaker
you do maybe hug them or like, you know, protect them from things. Like I'm sure that is a typical life action for people. You know what i mean? But showing it on TV, like, oh no, that like, we can't do that. Cause then that's like condoning people being able to like,
00:07:07
Speaker
hug each other can't have that well and at this time too like you probably didn't see a lot of like you wouldn't even see elassian jewels because right you wouldn't see a woman in that position of course not so like to see men having that kind of intimacy m would be like the trigger your homophobia i guess i guess um
00:07:35
Speaker
I mean even even now, you know, obviously, there's very rigid, guess, experiences of masculinity. Although i feel like we get more, oh yeah get a little more variation. Hmm.
00:07:53
Speaker
it was i i really liked it i don't know yeah it was fun i also wonder if like these kinds of personal stakes were as common um like looking at like a character like colombo which we watched in last foundations i don't know maybe you know because you have actually watched some of it but like is he ever like threatened like Or is he always sort of this more observer? mm um I haven't seen the whole Columbo. haven't every single episode. But in the ones that I've seen, he's usually coming in as it like an outsider. And I feel like that allows like a more detached...
00:08:35
Speaker
like emotional relationship with what's going on in the show. But like this episode, which we chose this episode because we looked at a list of like the 10 best Starsky and Hutch episodes. And this, I think, was the number one. um and Which makes sense because people love stakes, you know? that's very true And i feel like when the danger comes to your door, these characters' door,
00:09:04
Speaker
That also creates like what you were talking about, like an inevitable emotional like stakes and intimacy with each other. Like I'm thinking like when you were talking about Lassie and Jules, my...
00:09:19
Speaker
like the image that came to mind is them after the clock tower. Oh, me too. That's what I thought too. The clock tower. Yeah. in The clock tower. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. When Lassie's like, and this music is playing over this, you can't hear what they're saying, but you can kind of read their lips and he's like talking to her like, you don't have to be fine. and she's like losing it. And then they just, he just like holds her. And I mean, that,
00:09:50
Speaker
yo She almost died. and She was almost murdered. Yes. In a very um intense, yeah scary way. and yes I wonder if
Theatrical Acting in 70s TV
00:10:05
Speaker
how common it would have been at this time in the 70s to see your protagonist affected by um the crime that they're investigating or whatever. like like We're actively watching... starsky die in this episode right and hutch is like you know you can see how hard that is for him like yes he's kind of more um more transparent about how difficult that is for him than starsky is like um
00:10:40
Speaker
And maybe that's like a human behavior thing. Like if you're on, maybe you could joke about it more if it was happening to you. But like Hutch is like, we've got to, we've got to resolve this. Where's the antidote? Come on. yeah Pick up the pace. Go back to the hospital. I know.
00:10:59
Speaker
Yeah, it was it was very intense. I mean, from from the jump, like the first thing that we see is this guy with like pantyhose over his face. That was terrifying. Terrifying.
00:11:13
Speaker
my God, so scary. And again, walking into this show... No concept of anything or anybody. who was just like, what? I know. It was really scary. It was giving me kind of like twin peaks-y, creepy energy. um And then, yeah, he... Subtle. Like, what a simple thing.
00:11:34
Speaker
You know, what a simple disguise. Yes. And so effective. So effective. So effective. Yeah, and he, like, stabs him with the poison and...
00:11:47
Speaker
starsky like half wakes up like yeah well i was also confused a little bit by that like why he was so out of it and then later we find out he had been drugged before the poison was administered so it was just like it was all just yeah very eerie that opening scene and like the creepy laughter the creepy laughter ah the creepy laughter yeah so bad And then he like so I mean so dramatic.
00:12:15
Speaker
I like sometimes I forget that like acting in the 70s is kind of like different than acting now. Like acting now they go for like real realism. And you know decades ago they went for more like theatrical. But he like fall falls on the ground reaching for the cord.
00:12:30
Speaker
Falls the cord and he's like hutch. Help. I'm like ah. Oh my god. I let know. same I mean talk about effective like Again, having no relationship with these two as a as a duo too and as a yeah as a relationship. And like, yeah, they convey so much about how close they are with moments like that. Yeah.
00:13:00
Speaker
I know.
00:13:02
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Yeah. it was i I would definitely watch another episode of it. I almost, because I think it was, i think this was the second to last episode of season one. I was very close to being like, if this was the penultimate, like, what was the season finale? Like, what happened after this? Because this was intense. So I was very close to watching the next one. But then I think I fell asleep. I was late at night. Yeah.
00:13:34
Speaker
Yeah, it is kind of funny. Like, it's fun to sort of tourist our way through these and just like catch an episode of this. But it's also, i am curious.
00:13:47
Speaker
um and Maybe as true scholars, one day we will have to just really watch them all. Yeah. And we also picked... Come back around. Yeah. Yeah. I think we said with Moonlighting too we wanted to watch the whole thing. That was a fun one.
00:14:04
Speaker
But yeah, I mean this is like just a classic detective show. um And then also in the Psychologists are in Tim talked about how
00:14:21
Speaker
their like their car is in the drive-in. Yes. In the finale. Yeah. um With Yang. So. Yeah, that's why we did this. i'm Just throwing that out. There was a reference in there somewhere. Yeah. And. um We had touched on it in that episode, but it's referenced a bit in Earthwind and... wait we know That's the other one. oh yeah That's the actual fire one. Disco didn't die, it was murdered. i was going to say something about Disco or Boogie. Yeah, because the Pookie, the
00:15:04
Speaker
informant that they have in that episode is based on Huggy Bear who we did meet I was curious if Huggy Bear like when I read that that was a reference I was curious if it was like a one-off character but Huggy Bear is like part of the main cast one of the characters one of the gang yeah So that was kind of fun. I thought, speaking of Augie Bear, the last scene was very cute. Augie Bear, like, working in a travel agency. Yeah.
00:15:33
Speaker
And calling about Starsky's vacation that he's going to try to get away with. He should. He should take a long vacation after this. Yeah. I mean, fair enough. Yes.
00:15:45
Speaker
Yeah, I loved one of the other things that really stood out to me in the episode was the like the costume design or just the clothing in general. Like I loved, I felt like we had very distinct characters just based on their clothing.
00:16:01
Speaker
Like Starsky was very clearly like the... you know, down to earth, like blue collar man wearing the jeans. And then Hutch was clearly a little bit more polished. And then Huggy Bear had like very street style, like lots of nice fun colors. It was, yeah, it was fun to watch and see like all the- People look great in the 70s. Me too. I miss that fashion, especially for men.
00:16:26
Speaker
The high-waisted pants and like as trimmer cuts to like sweaters and stuff. Yeah. It's good stuff. Agreed. I also liked Hutch's hair. Oh, yes.
00:16:39
Speaker
I feel like I'm not. Nice hair. Oh, I don't always love blonde on a man, but I feel like it really, maybe it's a 70s cut. It really yeah worked.
Influences of 'Starsky and Hutch' on Sean
00:16:49
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah.
00:16:52
Speaker
um I know. And for most of the episode, too, even Starsky's hair, I was just looking at it I was like, he has such a wonderful head of hair. Like, Sean would love his hair. Oh my gosh, yeah. He would just fawn over it, I'm sure. Yeah. I wonder if Sean would have watched much of Starsky and Hutch or if Henry watched it, you know, that would have it's a good question because i feel like henry would have maybe watched it because it's a detective show but I wonder if the physical intimacy would have freaked him out because he's so like anti m emotion d you know what i mean he's like a little intimidated by emotion at times
00:17:31
Speaker
yeah at least well yeah he really grows into it yes i'm just looking up when chips was on because sean oh yes like actually watching chips yes that was 77 to 83 so that was a bit later right starsky and hutch was 75 five
00:17:57
Speaker
75 to 79. Yeah. Okay, so yeah, a little bit earlier. Yeah. But if there were reruns on, like, I could see Sean having watched that.
00:18:08
Speaker
Yeah, maybe he did admire the hair there. I bet. Wanted it nice and, like, fluffed. Like, theirs were. Very nice and fluffy. Mm-hmm.
00:18:20
Speaker
We should mention we, yeah we were meant to record this, like, A week and a half, two weeks ago. So it's been a little while since we watched and read this. yes These two.
00:18:34
Speaker
But could shift into Scarlet, Study in Scarlet, and and then just go between.
Adapting 'A Study in Scarlet' in Modern Shows
00:18:42
Speaker
Dabble. Fair enough.
00:18:44
Speaker
So we also read the somewhat lengthy Study in Scarlet. I actually listened to it this time. because I listened to it also. I wonder if we listened the same one. We might have. I just listened on YouTube. Oh, okay. Because I forget that Spotify has books.
00:19:01
Speaker
I got it from my library. harm On Libby. you use Libby? Oh, no. What's that? Oh. Do you have an e-reader?
00:19:14
Speaker
i do not. i got an e-reader I guess postpartum era because it's just too hard to hold a book that's fair holding a baby I'm sure but there's like this system where you can get books from the library on your e-reader and they have also audio books on there oh nice um yeah but I did like the
00:19:47
Speaker
the voice of my guy so i'm curious if you read the same one here let me go find listen to the same one was derrick partridge dr home okay let me go look do do do tantor unabridged classics
00:20:10
Speaker
I, mine was Greg Wagland. m I liked him as well. He was also nice. He, he did accents. Like he did different voices for the different characters, which was fun. What his accent?
00:20:21
Speaker
He is British. Okay. Mine was kind similar. Yeah. And then like put on voices for the different characters, which was fun. Um, yeah. so study in Scarlet, the first like iteration of, or the first novel of Sherlock Holmes, um,
00:20:40
Speaker
introduces John Watson and Sherlock Holmes and how they come together into a partnership and then takes them on a case of eventually two men who have seemingly been murdered but we're not completely certain how in the beginning.
00:20:57
Speaker
and you know it sets up the whole fun sherlock holmes thing of you know he can make deductions from just looking at someone and you know he understands crimes like far faster than other people and sets up how john watson fits in to all of that too which is is fun yeah it was fun i feel like Well, I haven't read any original Sherlock Holmes stories, but I have seen Sherlock the show and the Robert Downey Jr. movies. Oh, those are good, too. He's great at Sherlock. Yeah, that's a fun one. um But I was like, it was it really brought back the Sherlock show to me, just because it is very similar. yeah um
00:21:42
Speaker
and Which, as it should be, but... I started watching them again after reading this because I was like, oh, now I'm nostalgic now. Yeah, I felt that too. yeah um I need to watch it again too because I was like trying to like, I was like mapping the plot points kind of my head of like, okay, and that's why. But I don't really remember.
00:22:05
Speaker
i was really... I'm not taken aback, maybe a little bit, but by the big story of the Mormons. Oh my gosh, middle crazy. i know. I remember the first time I read it. I literally thought there was a misprint the first time I read it. i thought like they put another book in between by accident. It's really interesting and like a really interesting... like like narratively because i don't think any of that's like from John Watson's perspective. No.
00:22:36
Speaker
So it's kind of almost like what we were talking about, i think last time about sort of creative storytelling and like how you talked about that murder mystery that you were reading where there was like a bunch of different sources. Yes. Like it kind of felt like that because it was like, we are reading John, like John Watson's,
00:22:58
Speaker
journals or right whatever he, I mean, he, I guess he publishes them. um That is what we are reading yeah in the beginning. And then suddenly we're reading just a tale by a third, like just a traditional, um you know, third person
00:23:19
Speaker
story yeah and then we go back to john watson so it was like an interesting assembly of yes of sources you might say yes and i was i say all that because i was as i was like tracking it to the sherlock episode i was like dude i don't know if we got no all that um well certainly not that yeah story but just the I can't remember what the revenge was in
00:23:50
Speaker
I feel like it were his victim like so edge yeah his victims random in Sherlock? like that's my memory. Okay. So the thing that I love about the BBC version of Sherlock is they take the source material and they modernize it in a way that still feels very ah truthful to the original stories and the original characters. So a lot of A Study in Pink, which is the first episode of BBC Sherlock, follows the plot of A study in Scarlet. Like the first, I would say, 15 minutes are almost like a carbon copy. They both meet the same guy. The guy is like, that's so funny. I just met another person who said that they would never be able to find a roommate in London. ok we're going to go meet the guy. Oh, you Afghanistan or Iraq. And then they go to the, you know, like it's like...
00:24:40
Speaker
Very, very similar. And even the the generalized murder, I would say, is the same, right? The the end goal is that this guy has two pills that he presents to his victims and says, you take one, I take the other, and you're going to die, essentially. And the reason he's doing this is for revenge, but he's also dying in the process. In the BBC Sherlock version,
00:25:08
Speaker
because we can't tell the whole tale of the Mormons, I assume, they instead... Well, and to your point, like in terms of modernization, like it just wouldn't... I mean, you could tell the same a love story. Yes.
00:25:21
Speaker
And I mean, you could totally convey that, but but yeah, it probably wasn't time. Wasn't time. I also feel like it I think about like when the Sherlock books were being published and now like this idea of like someone coming from America to Europe would have been a much more um difficult, lengthy, timely thing than now. Like it's not abnormal for someone to pick up their entire life and go to Europe. um
00:25:59
Speaker
And I think...
00:26:03
Speaker
what Sherlock does from the very beginning is sets up this Moriarty subplot, which isn't really done in the Sherlock tales until later on Reichenbach Falls.
00:26:17
Speaker
um So, yeah, they they very nicely thread in this, you know, villain with his pills and making people choose and him also dying. um But in a way that...
00:26:32
Speaker
also makes it so moriarty can be like the mastermind behind it all he's and we still have the whole taxi driver thing you know like yeah that's i was like oh cool you know yeah yeah this like a cabbie because i do remember that uh but also the the raka thing is in study and yes so funny your revenge or is it no it's rachel that's really that's what i was like rachel and then and then in the book sherlock's like don't be stupid, it's ripping. Which, when I first saw the Sherlock, the BBC Sherlock episode, I literally laughed out loud. I was like, that, was like, if you've read it, that is so freaking funny. Like, for you, for in the book, them to be like, don't be stupid. And then on the TV show, the other way, don't be stupid. Don't be stupid, yeah. That was so funny.
00:27:21
Speaker
yeah Yeah, and I'd love... don't have to go back and forth. Yeah, you really should. It's so good. And i they try... at least in the ones that I can remember the best, what was it, like four seasons, five seasons? I feel like I remember the first two seasons best. it was four.
00:27:38
Speaker
Four. They try at least somewhat to connect each one to one of the novels, which I think is really cool. Like I just watched um the third the last episode of season one before, the great game with the...
00:27:54
Speaker
when Moriarty's like kidnapping people and Sherlock has to like find them quickly and they're calling on the phone. Is that when he says people are dying and Moriarty's like that's what people do! Yes! That's what people do! He like screams at him in the pool. He is so good. He is so good. And now he's like huge these days. I'm like so happy for him. Every time I see him I'm like aww. Have you seen um did you see Fleabag?
00:28:20
Speaker
He was so good in that too. Oh my gosh. Yeah, i only recently watched Fleabag, i can I guess probably like a year ago now or so. I was going to say, I feel like it's a show you would really like. Yeah, it's sad though. I know, it it's definitely sad. But from like a from like a TV perspective, yeah I like that it breaks a lot of like the norms of of standard tv which is fun.
00:28:41
Speaker
But yeah, so the the book is, it's fun. and i'm I'm glad that we came to the the you know original source material for Sherlock because he's really going to become kind of like the standardized detective blueprint of like someone who has a special spec special thing that they can do. most specialest person in the whole Yes, and no one else gets it and they're going to solve all the crimes and everyone else looks stupid in the process. Yeah, and in in not every...
00:29:15
Speaker
scenario on like current tv where that is super common do they have like a watson character but like psych is a great example of that dynamic too but at the same time i do feel like gus is not like he's not like in awe of yeah um in the way that watson is in of sherlock and also you know because they go way back in kind of a different yeah um thing because yeah i mean gus
00:29:46
Speaker
has sort of like having grown up with Sean it's it's probably less surprising you know it's like yeah he's seen him grow as a detective basically also so it's like it's not like wow you're amazing yeah well i love how you described it I don't know when I think it was in the very beginning of us starting this like they're both psychic detectives like Sean is teaching Gus how to do this at the same time. Like Sean is the showboat who is going to, you know, do the big shebang, but Gus is figuring out how to do this too, which is very different than the Sherlock Watson dynamic. Like Watson is just kind of following
00:30:28
Speaker
and occasionally helping when he can yeah when i love i loved the part in the book where sherlock explains why like he doesn't know that the earth revolves around the sun because he is useless it's like sherlock picks the topics that he thinks are going to be the most useful and then just gathers all the information that he can on that like cigarette ash like he knows yeah all of the different brands of like cigarette ash for the time yeah where he understands like shoe he talked about like shoe prints in the the book you know so he he knows a lot about those particular things because he thinks they're going to be helpful in psych
00:31:14
Speaker
anything and everything can be helpful. And they're really just having fun and yeah just like, you know, Sean's just taking jobs for kicks and then that happens to help. yeah Yes.
00:31:27
Speaker
Yeah, no, they're definitely, Sherlock is not just doing this for fun. He is taking this very seriously. yeah Which, fair, he's the world's only consulting detective. I mean, he can take it as seriously as he wants, I suppose. Yeah.
00:31:43
Speaker
But yeah, i like that we get we get a very like silly version of Sherlock in Sean. h Which I think is not not what we always get in that ah in the derivative of Sherlock. like It's usually also someone very serious, as you said, very scholarly, very learned, like whatever, whatever.
00:32:07
Speaker
And here Sean's like... I don't care. I will make a complete fool of myself. Yeah. And I guess it's Henry's lessons are sort of like akin to what Sherlock studies. Cause Sherlock, I feel like his argument also is that like every crime has already been done before.
00:32:28
Speaker
um So he's very into just studying the history of crimes because it's like, if he's read about it, Or if he's seeing it now, it's already happened at some point and he's read about it. There was a show. Hold on. I got to find it now. There was a show, another British show, that was literally this. It was like a detective show, but they had...
00:32:57
Speaker
They found someone who was like a crime historian because he believed that same thing is going to drive crazy. And they had him. oh Whitechapel? Is that? Hold on. Hold on.
00:33:10
Speaker
Sounds like something. It does sound like something. Whitechapel? Aha. Is this it? ah yes white chapel um and they have him like create this whole history of crime like section in the police station so that he can go and like find a crime similar and they can use that as like a profile for the current killer and bla blah blah blah yeah which is yeah well and just like the idea of that
00:33:41
Speaker
I feel like really speaks to the legacy of Sherlock Holmes, the the stories and the character, because you could pick out like a little detail about how this character functions and make a whole show about it. Absolutely.
00:33:55
Speaker
I would just like to also note the cabbie is in this show. Oh man. What now? Good for him. I really like him. He did a very good job in this show.
00:34:08
Speaker
He did. And that, speaking of him, that was another thing I was like, you know, kind of wrapping my head around with comparing the two. Like, I feel like that character, the murderer is very sympathetic because we have all this backstory. Right. Yeah. Which I don't think, I mean, you,
00:34:26
Speaker
he's in A Study in Pink, he's really only sympathetic to the point where he's dying. Right. But like, that's not really justification. Right. Not that there's any justification yet. yeah. but But you get why.
00:34:42
Speaker
could be driven to this. In the novella, um why, I don't remember any of these characters' names, but that why the murderer has done, ah has been driven to this. Yeah. Right.
00:34:56
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. They're not presented well, these no characters. No, not at all. community. um
00:35:07
Speaker
Yeah. And I think it it comes down to like what... you know, what is the story trying to tell? And I think in the case of the BBC Sherlock, they're trying to use this as a jumping off point for the Moriarty storyline.
00:35:25
Speaker
um So his background as a character maybe isn't as important in the TV show as it is in the story itself, the original source material. Yeah.
00:35:42
Speaker
Yeah. It's just interesting like how the different storytellings like can impact you differently. Like, yeah, yeah. In the novella, I was like, well, they got what was coming. Yeah, totally. And then, and like, it's just, he's a lot more sympathetic. And even in that, like, in the end when he's kind of explaining everything um and that he's dying and stuff, like it even seems like Sherlock and John and Lestrade and the other guy who I feel like is not in Sherlock as much so I don't know his name yeah yeah um like they seem kind of sympathetic to him too yeah oh I think so yeah I mean I think after hearing that whole tale which I can't
00:36:33
Speaker
I feel like, I can't remember exactly because now it was two weeks ago, but the Mormon part of the book wasn't framed as him telling the story, right? Because he kind of did that afterwards. Right. I feel like if it was just like moved around a tiny bit to that, I have been like, ah, got it. Like he's telling the story of the Mormons and like what happened and how he got here. suppose then it would have been a little harder to get of the it like fully...
00:37:03
Speaker
like omniscient third person right yeah and that would have been hard with it being just from him yeah but the idea of people coming to sherlock and explaining everything and him just like solving it yeah conversation with them with not like without uh seeing anything or like touching anything or whatever it reminds me so much of pilot
Sherlock vs. Sean: Detective Dynamics
00:37:29
Speaker
Sean. That's i yes.
00:37:30
Speaker
That's what I was just going to say when you started saying that. Exactly. Like seeing it on the TV. Yeah. Which i feel like makes so much sense from like, because the characters grow obviously beyond who they are in the pilot, but like to as a starting point, if they were thinking like, this is kind of a Sherlock Holmes story, it makes sense that,
00:37:52
Speaker
we would see that from sean like his ability to do that which i feel like later on i mean he even talks about how he needs to see things touch things be in the which he's also dealing with more complicated yeah scenarios later on but um yeah i just felt like that was so sherlockian of him yes totally oh i love that connection i yeah literally did not make that until you started saying was like oh his very reading with the other detect detectives which sean doesn't often get the chance to do when i was saying very reading is just supposed to be a different word yeah yeah i mean i feel like maybe i was thinking about like how
00:38:41
Speaker
sort of cocky Sherlock gets to be in like oh maybe teasing I think very teasing was what I writing how he sort of like mocks very much so the detectives yeah um and yeah and it's this it's like this weird dynamic of well he's so good that like we just have to put up with him because no one else is going to solve this and in in sean's case i feel like it's he's so annoying
00:39:14
Speaker
but we have to put up him because he's gonna solve it faster yeah than we will not that we won't but just faster yeah and i feel like the dynamic that they have in psych is more conducive to like the tension that you need for like eight seasons or yes like going on and on and on. Like the fact that Lassie doesn't want him there right and is sure that he could do it himself. Right. um
00:39:45
Speaker
Like that just is more fun to watch for, for a long time versus like Lassie being, going to Sean and being like, oh I don't know how to do it again.
00:39:55
Speaker
Well, I think it it comes back to what we were you were asking with Starsky and Hutch. Like, is it more episodic or is it more serial? the case of, you know, if if the Sherlock novels and short stories and novellas were turned into an episodic, a TV show, I think would make more sense episodically because you would just come into it individually.
00:40:18
Speaker
They're not connected to each other. Who cares? um You're probably not going to sit down and watch 20 of them at once. But yeah, the, the psych iteration of it makes sense more serially because you are going to binge it all the way through and there needs to be development and the stakes need to get higher. And yeah.
00:40:35
Speaker
Yeah. And there has to be like relationships that you can invest in. Like if everybody's just annoyed all the time, cause like in and Sherlock BBC Sherlock, like, He is annoying, but also there are these very emotional like connections that he makes and stuff. and And you do buy into the whole group of them as like a team. And to your point about like Moriarty and seeding that.
00:41:00
Speaker
taking something episodic and making it serialized like you do need to have the forethought to like bake in this bigger narrative which it certainly does um oh my god yeah yeah i did i have a note i can't believe he killed that dog Oh, I know. cannot believe.
00:41:27
Speaker
i was like... I know. You could not do that in today's. Or you would not be like the protagonist of the story if you did that today.
00:41:40
Speaker
Yeah, no. That was depressing. I know. I feel like he feels... like he can get away with essentially anything, especially if it's for the sake of the case or for the sake of science or for the sake of.
00:41:55
Speaker
Yeah. Well, it had an interesting line in there where I guess John, as our narrator, was like, said something about the, I think like the white hair on the dog or something like, has it like the, he already lived too long. i Like, okay, that's not your decision. No, totally not. Totally not. But that does kind of speak to Sherlock being this kind of character who thinks that is his decision. you know like right He does think he sort of plays God for, as you said, like the sake of the truth or whatever.
00:42:32
Speaker
The greater good. Yeah, I was quite disturbed by that. Yeah, absolutely. And after he survived the first one, I was like, oh, phew. And then they just gave him the second one. I'm like, Sherlock, you didn't need to do that. know. Well, especially because he is a chemist of sorts. Why could he not have taken pill and done some chemical mumbo-jumbo, biology mumbo-jumbo and figured out what it was? The sad thing is probably...
00:43:08
Speaker
I mean, and even now, and certainly at that time, it probably, that is probably what you would have done. is Like, basically it's basically animal testing. know. It's just sad. It's seemingly unnecessary. i know. Oh, haven't known on the nut shelling. I feel like that is definitely similar. You know, the way, like, Sean explains how everything happened is similar to how, like, Sherlock explains how he figured everything out. Which, like, yeah.
00:43:35
Speaker
Sean doesn't always do that, if ever, because he can't. Because that would be giving away the game a little bit. But we kind of see him. yeah yeah But we see how he does. So we kind of get both as a viewer.
00:43:52
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, I think particularly in ah like a written format and in the case of Sherlock being the sole holder of this knowledge.
00:44:07
Speaker
There needs to be some kind of resolution of like, okay, what exactly did, you solved it, but how? Like what, you you gotta to give it, give us the goods, you know?
00:44:17
Speaker
So yeah, Sherlock goes through the whole, the whole bit of nut shelling. But as you just said, the fun thing with Sean is that it's transparent. Like, you know, from the start, how it's all happening. Like you see it happen in front of him.
00:44:33
Speaker
But because we're not Sean, we don't make the connections where Sean himself makes the connections. So then we get it all kind of at the end through the nut shelling, where in the case of Sherlock, you don't get any of it until the very, very end. And then you're like, well, shit. Yeah. And it's also funny how Sherlock in the book...
00:44:55
Speaker
um He's just so tickled by like knowing things that other people don't. He loves being better than everyone. loves it. I feel like we don't really get that from Sean.
00:45:08
Speaker
Like it's sort of just like fast. Yeah, he's too unserious. Yeah, but also just like it just sort of is what it is. I feel like sometimes, if anything, we get kind of a sort of a surprise frustration from Sean that it's like, like, you're not saying this. Like sometimes with Gus, you know, when he does have to explain, he's like, really? Like, yeah, yeah.
00:45:30
Speaker
I feel like in that, like the wedding episode from season one, I feel like we have that moment where, oh, where he like opens the door and he's like, not him. And this is like, what? And he's like, really? explain Yeah. he a remedial course Yeah, exactly. like But like very rarely do we see that. I feel like unless he's doing it to impress somebody.
00:45:54
Speaker
Like a Yes. Yes. To show them just how. there's like a cockiness. Yeah. Yeah. Well, i think I think Sean gets people way more than Sherlock gets people. Like, I don't think Sherlock really cares about, like, having friends or, like, people liking him or, like, any of that. And I think Sean takes a lot of stock in their...
00:46:19
Speaker
theyre be a knowledge of the people around him that he can like tap for advice or for help or for knowledge you know whatever whatever it might be so he he takes all stock in being like charming and personable
00:46:40
Speaker
yeah and i guess he does sort of have a humility about like enough that he like that he does go to his dad and ask for help or like that you know that he needs Gus to be there and also just because i guess point like he just values relationships so like it's like he's not doing it unless he's doing it with Gus you know right like that's definitely a big part of his his way
00:47:14
Speaker
Yes. Yes.
00:47:21
Speaker
What else? I think that's all I've got.
00:47:36
Speaker
I think that's all I've got. Yeah. It is...
00:47:46
Speaker
I guess in connection to how Sherlock says like that all crime has been done and, and sees this like, I think he calls it a family history of crime.
Detective Show Tropes and Cultural Impact
00:48:00
Speaker
um It's interesting that you could apply the same to detective shows because it really, um and I know like with Starsky and Hutch, you and I both,
00:48:13
Speaker
It's interesting that this line has been used in multiple things, but you like recognize it from a Bob's Burgers episode? Oh, yes. Yes, I do. and Which is not a detective show, but what is the context for that reference?
00:48:29
Speaker
Oh, God, that's a great question. What is the context for that? It might just be that um I think Jean dresses up as Turner and Hooch.
00:48:40
Speaker
for Halloween, like he's half Turner, half Hooch, half human, half dog. And then Linda might be like, Starsky and Hutch, Turner and Hooch. But let me see if that's actually the context. Well, it's funny because...
00:48:53
Speaker
in Castle, which we talked about this, I think, not on the podcast, but, um, like, the exact same sequence is said.
00:49:05
Speaker
Um, where I think Castle says, we make a pretty good team. Like, Starsky and Hutch, Turner and Hooch. And so I just think it's funny that, like, there's this point of reference.
00:49:16
Speaker
Um, but, Yeah, have like partner partner, detective partner. Yeah. Yeah.
00:49:29
Speaker
Yeah, and Sherlock and John are definitely part of that hised that family history, too. Maybe even the beginning of it. I don't know what the consensus is on that.
00:49:42
Speaker
um But yeah, then Sean and Gus hit right in. Yeah. Yeah.
00:49:51
Speaker
Yeah, and I like that idea that, like, as as you were just saying, in the case of detective shows, like, it's always kind of been done before. Mm-hmm. I'm sure we could find another detective show in which, you know, some of the generalized plots are kind of similar. Like, I'm sure there's a wine episode of Columbo and there's a wine episode in Psych, you know, like...
00:50:15
Speaker
Well, and some of that is just like TV too, because it's like, you know, you have to make certain amount of episodes. Right. and And I do love that. I find similar thing with Castle because i feel like Castle is another show that makes a lot of references.
00:50:30
Speaker
And there is like a similar thing. Like every single one has like an aliens episode, a time travel episode, a 70s episode, a noir episode. Yeah. Because, mean, and even sitcoms do that, you know, like. Yeah. Yeah.
00:50:48
Speaker
Yeah. They just kind of got to fill the the season out. Yeah. but I think that's so fun. I agree. I agree. Well, and that's like, you know.
00:51:00
Speaker
I mean, that's essentially what references are now. It's like being able to to look back at something that's happened beforehand and then take it and use it, but make it your own, which is exactly what Sean and Gus do. like Take other things, turn it into their own, and then utilize that in a new joke or a new bit or whatever it might be.
00:51:21
Speaker
What are we going to watch next at Christmas? Yeah, it'll be our Christmas episode. What do we want to watch? Oh, yeah. We haven't even even picked. I know. we going to do another Christmas, Jules?
00:51:32
Speaker
I believe so. Let's check out her IMDB here. We can pick which one seems the best or the most. say There's so many. So I guess, should we go back in time?
00:51:44
Speaker
Yeah, let's go backwards. Since we started with Sugar Plum? Yeah, so what's the next Okay, next would be A Lot Like Christmas 2021. Jessica owns the most popular Christmas tree lot in Hudson Springs, but when big city marketing executive Claymore moves to moveos a big box chain store into the area and starts selling trees, Jessica finds her business in jeopardy. Oh man, that's like one of one of the I mean, the most classic tropes. And you mentioned, maybe before we started recording, that of classic rom-coms, you believe you have seen what you think of Sally and St. Louis in Seattle. I believe that's it. I would argue, based on this logline, that maybe we should watch You've Got Mail, which is... Oh. of though That's like a kind of a trilogy. Is that the... um Is that the email one?
00:52:38
Speaker
they are like instant messaging. Yeah, I feel like you maybe... I mean, you've got mail. I think maybe we watched it together. That makes sense. I think we maybe watched... three yeah read Nora Ephron movies are very important to me.
00:52:52
Speaker
um but I feel like we did. If you've got some time, I would watch that and... Add that in there too. Because it's basically the same plot. Oh, okay. This is basically You've Got Mail, which is actually...
00:53:07
Speaker
Okay. Interestingly, i was about to say that's a shop around the corner, which is different thing, like an old play. But what those are, I think, are or more of the um having a like message relationship with an enemy o and not knowing it's your enemy. Like falling in love over like written communication yes with someone who in real life you hate uh yes um but this Maggie Lawson movie is more like just the business tension which is also part of you've got me all but I feel like that is like if you wrote read like a Joe Calmark synopsis or like like it would be this perfect like a tiny tree farm
00:54:00
Speaker
And then the big bad tree farm. Like, I feel like just a million jokes I've been told just like that. So I feel like that's the Okay. What's it called again? i want I need to write it down because I will forget.
00:54:12
Speaker
A Lot Like Christmas 2021. Okay. So next time we'll be watching our now traditional Maggie Lawson Christmas special.
00:54:24
Speaker
This year, A Lot Like Christmas, which can be found on Netflix for your perusing pleasure. We'll discuss all things Maggie Lawson, any connections to the psych world that we would like to make, and anything else fun because it's foundations.
00:54:37
Speaker
And it's Christmas. It's Christmas. And the holidays and in general. Watch You've Got Mail too. Yes, add on You've Got Mail there. So if you'd like to join us back here next week, we'll be here Tuesday, question mark, and we'll talk a little bit about a lot like Christmas and the famed TV show, Psych.
00:54:56
Speaker
Bye. FSI 6101 would like to thank and credit the design efforts of Olavia Genesis, musical talents of Skane Music and Mikael Hunt, the production abilities of Kyle Dalton and Skillard Jensen, and of course, the support of our friends and family.
00:55:12
Speaker
If you enjoyed the episode, make sure to rate and review and join us back here next time for more FSI 6101.
00:55:23
Speaker
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