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Let's Talk About Dave Chappelle's Trans Jokes
19 Plays2 months ago
In this episode, Kai and El unpack the impact of jokes about trans people - specifically those made by comedian Dave Chappelle. While some frame these moments as simple comedy, we explore why these kinds of jokes can be harmful, especially when they rely on tired stereotypes or feed into societal misunderstandings.
We talk about what makes a joke punch down, and why that matters - particularly when the target is a community already facing disproportionate discrimination. But we also dig into a more nuanced conversation: it is possible to make jokes about trans people. So what makes the difference between humour that harms and humour that connects?
Whether you’ve felt uncomfortable watching these stand-up moments, have struggled to articulate why they don’t sit right - or even if you've enjoyed them, this one’s for you.
Download our FREE resource:"Yes - You Can Joke About Trans People!" here!
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Gender in Focus' and Controversial Comedy
00:00:02
Speaker
This is Gender in Focus. I'm El and each week I sit down with the president of Trans Focus Consulting and all-round gender diversity genius, Kai Scott. I get to ask all the questions you've ever wanted to ask about how to make the workplace and the world a better place for trans and non-binary people.
00:00:20
Speaker
Let's get into it.
00:00:23
Speaker
Today, we're tackling a tough one, Dave Chappelle's stand-up comedy and how it has framed trans people, especially trans women, in ways that fuel misunderstanding and frankly do harm.
00:00:34
Speaker
For some, Chappelle's jokes are seen as a sharp social commentary or just humor pushing boundaries. For others, they're painful reminder of how trans people's identity are still seen as punchlines.
00:00:46
Speaker
And let's be honest, many folks watching his specials may have nodded along to some
Is Gender Just Biological? Analyzing Comedy's Impact on Trans Identity
00:00:51
Speaker
of the arguments. so Isn't gender just biology? Aren't trans people just choosing how they want to be seen?
00:00:58
Speaker
Why can't we joke about everyone equally? We're here to explore those questions, not to push back, but to unpack where those beliefs come from and why they don't hold up when we look closer.
00:01:10
Speaker
So whether you've felt hurt by these jokes, laughed at them, or just aren't sure what the big deal is, we invite you to stick with us. We'll explore the impact of humor, the realities of gender identity,
00:01:20
Speaker
and what it means to balance comedy, free speech, and responsibility. And I'm joined by my colleague Elle to help us unpack these issues here today. How are you doing Elle?
00:01:31
Speaker
I'm doing so well, thank you, Kai. How are you? I'm fantastic, too. I'm really excited to dive into this one.
Chappelle's Themes: Delusion or Misinterpretation?
00:01:38
Speaker
I know it's been a ah while since Dave Chappelle's stand-up comedies have come out, ah but it is something that keeps coming up, and so it's actually just a useful tool to look closer at issues that are percolating.
00:01:53
Speaker
He's just kind of the tip of an iceberg of which there's so stuff below. Yeah, trans people are often used as the butt of a joke and we see it with multiple different comedians. But I think Dave Chappelle is just one that keeps being shared and reshared and reshared across different social media platforms or wherever it is. So I do think it's probably quite important to talk about.
00:02:15
Speaker
Could you explain what exactly Dave Chappelle said in this in well I mean he said multiple things but in the in the kind of the themes that he's been sharing and and why it's such an issue and why it was so sensitive for so many people Yeah, absolutely. Now, I will not go into all of the nitty gritty detail. I'll spare that for folks who want to see the exact word for word.
00:02:41
Speaker
ah For those who want to, you don't have to if you don't want to. And also just being sensitive towards trans people who have heard it and don't want to relive all of that.
Humor's Influence on Bias and Misunderstanding
00:02:51
Speaker
But I'll speak to it broadly.
00:02:53
Speaker
There's been, and it's not just been one stand-up comedy, it's been a series of stand-up comedies where he has spoken to trans about trans people, about trans issues. And essentially the gist of it is essentially that he doesn't want to participate in trans people's delusion, according to him, right? And he feels like he should be given the freedom to say what he wants and not to be imposed upon.
00:03:20
Speaker
um And he gives various jokes to get at that general theme. And and one of them being about an actor, um Jim Carrey in particular, who is getting into a character and is living that character ah for a movie.
Societal Expectations and Trans Identity Struggles
00:03:38
Speaker
And so he uses this as an analogy to get at why he doesn't want to participate and essentially is calling being trans being an act, right?
00:03:49
Speaker
And he wants to meet the real person, which is in his mind related. And he speaks frequently about bodies, especially trans bodies. And so it was getting at this particular aspect.
00:04:01
Speaker
And It's something that you know some trans people can listen to and be like kind of eye roll. um Other trans people might feel very stirred or activated or triggered by that kind of thing, mainly because it's kind of on repeat. it's not Dave's not the only one who's coming up with this, not original content by any stretch.
00:04:23
Speaker
And essentially it's just like, ugh, yet again, especially with someone such a high profile um and such intelligence. That's the thing, especially for myself as somebody who has listened to Dave Chappelle for years.
00:04:37
Speaker
ah He is a very intelligent and insightful person and has used comedy to really illustrate the struggle and the need for support on other topics. And so it just, it feels off that he's not able to reach that on this, on gender diversity.
00:04:56
Speaker
what would What would you say of the sort of main misunderstandings that come from
Challenging Harmful Narratives through Comedy
00:05:01
Speaker
that? Because you were talking about how his jokes in particular around wanting to see the real person. and that it's an act that's sort of in complete contrast to the realities of of trans experience.
00:05:12
Speaker
Yeah. So when he was unpacking his joke or telling his joke ah related to visiting Jim Carrey and wanting to meet meet Jim Carrey, but instead because he was method acting and living 100% of the time as the character he was playing,
00:05:30
Speaker
ah He was upset that he was only meeting the character, not Jim Carrey, in that moment. And that was, I'm sure there was, I can't remember the exact you know punchline in that, but that was the gist of it. And it's really interesting that that's a very common misunderstanding. That's not just Dave Chappelle.
00:05:50
Speaker
That's often what cisgender people think of trans people, that we're putting on an act and presenting it to the world and then wanting the world to you know essentially reflect that back.
00:06:02
Speaker
When in fact, it's actually the direct opposite of that, right? The fact that for years, we put on an act trying to be the thing that society tells us we are.
00:06:13
Speaker
and based on what we were born, they just kind of ascribe that and are like, this is you. It's like, o I don't think so. And so you try your best um or many trans and non-binary folks do make a really valiant attempt at what society says we are, ah but doesn't feel resonant or true.
00:06:33
Speaker
And so it's really quite interesting that you know Dave and others misunderstand that.
Comedic Responsibility and Societal Influence
00:06:40
Speaker
um and really the the earnest year-long, decades-long effort that people put into that um and that that's the facade that you know if we're living by what society expects, we are actually acting.
00:06:57
Speaker
And the the meeting the true self is when people are able to step out of that and say, actually, that does not either quite fit or fully fit, and here's who I actually am.
00:07:08
Speaker
And it comes at a great expense often, ah hard fought, whether an internal struggle to make that visible or losses in one's life. You know, it's it's not something that's cavalier and at a flip of a switch.
00:07:22
Speaker
And so people go to extraordinary lengths if they choose to take gender affirming care routes, you know, transformations to their body. So it's just like, yeah, just the I think he misses the point that the act is before we come out rather than after it.
00:07:41
Speaker
And so it's just really interesting. And also that there's a cost to that act ah before we come out ah in terms of depression, isolating oneself, even substance abuse, um despair, like deep amounts of despair.
00:07:56
Speaker
So there's a cost to acting over the long term. So that's just some of the dimensions where it's just, he kind of points to trans people being at putting on an act when in fact it's the opposite.
00:08:09
Speaker
why Why are these so harmful? Because they are harmful and they have been, it's been discussed a lot and it's sort of dismissed quite a lot as sort of being overdramatic, but, or like, it's just comedy. It's just like, why can't we just all have a joke? Why is this such a big deal?
00:08:24
Speaker
Yeah, it's really important to explore because of course, jokes can create a lot of levity in life. And so it's not that we're avoiding all jokes, even jokes about trans people, like but it's just what is the nature of the joke and what's its basis. And in this case, it is pretty far off of what the actual trans experience is.
00:08:49
Speaker
And so it's actually replicating harmful misunderstandings about trans folks where already society struggles with understanding trans people.
00:08:59
Speaker
And it kind of reaffirms biases or ah hurtful harmful ways of looking at trans folks that essentially they're making it up, right? um And that's already pretty strong hold in society. And basically when Dave Chappelle and others like him you know make these types of jokes, there's almost like a permission structure that's built to say, yeah, hey, even Dave Chappelle thinks that. And yeah, he's right. And um we're right. And those those trans people are out to lunch, right?
00:09:32
Speaker
And it's just like, wow. Yeah.
Can Comedy Evolve to Reflect Inclusivity?
00:09:34
Speaker
you know, rather than being honest. And i think there's lots of space ah for trans people to to hear from cisgender people, including Dave Chappelle, like, I'm struggling with this. I don't quite get it.
00:09:47
Speaker
I'm stuck here. i can't get past it. And he could even kind of make fun of himself in that process in a way that I think would be really helpful to people who are also struggling on the topic. So it's not avoiding the topic, it's just like how you do it that can either bring us together and along a pathway or can pit people against each other in a way that hurts and harms people and pulls us further apart.
00:10:15
Speaker
And so, especially since I know Dave Chappelle's comedy and know its power, I'm just like pretty like i'm just sad and disappointed, really, by the trajectory that's very...
00:10:29
Speaker
It's very different from his other comedy because when he speaks to race, like he's very powerful, very insightful, very incisive. Obviously, coming from his own lived experience, he can know those nuances and play with them in a very tangible and and constructive way. But that's not where...
00:10:49
Speaker
he is with trans issues and even some, to some extent on queer or ah sexual diversity as well. He just kind of likes to, the the the kind colloquial way of talking about is punched down, right? Because he does have power in this instance, given the reach, the audience. And it's not, I don't i don't subscribe to the he's responsible um angle, but there is something to be said about being thoughtful.
00:11:19
Speaker
and almost strategic, right? Because like but he has his own experience of being a minority and could stretch from his own understanding to understand some aspects of trans issues and for whatever reason, hasn't done that.
00:11:38
Speaker
I don't know if it's laziness ah or just can't be bothered or is beyond that now. I don't know. it's It's interesting. Maybe it's more effective for his career. I'm not true cynical.
00:11:52
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, that could be aspect of that. Create some controversy. um It's easy. It's low cost to punch down on trans people, sadly. um But it's interesting because there's been this whole wave of comedy around either by trans people or about trans people that is like really awesome.
00:12:15
Speaker
Like there's so many examples now where if Chappelle was inclined to, he could have gone down those pathways ah and like been constructive.
The Complexity of Trans Identity and Public Influence
00:12:27
Speaker
um It's not to say that you have to have it all figured out or you have to have 100% dialed. Like there's no expectation or not no, but few people expect that. But it's when it's just like, yeah, not not being bothered. It's like, okay.
00:12:42
Speaker
And many attempts were made to, you know, he did engage with trans community members afterwards to try to understand or have dialogue.
00:12:53
Speaker
But that didn't seem to, you know, shift anything. it just kind of He doubled down, right? Yeah, from the stuff that I read feels a bit um intellectually dishonest, the way that he's handling it from from that point onwards, where it it just feels like he has all of this information ah right at his fingertips. And he's actively not choosing to yeah use it.
00:13:13
Speaker
And going back to to stuff, to like old easy stuff, like I'm going to use pronouns based on how somebody looks. Done. Okay, cool.
00:13:25
Speaker
um Awesome. And good good no, it's not awesome. I'm being facetious, but just like, okay, that's you know Everybody gets to choose. People do have freedom and that's a choice he's made and maybe others as well. But you know that does not serve to get to get anybody closer, unfortunately, in this scenario. so And there's more more elements to this story that I i don't feel the need to bring into this conversation.
00:13:53
Speaker
ah But there's a lot more here because I know some trans people might be listening to it and be like, What about this? What about, you know, yeah yeah to keep it kind of a ah more simple conversation, i we'll just stick to this. But if people are curious, they can go a little bit further ah to find you to your intellectual dishonesty point. There is that aspect too.
00:14:14
Speaker
So um there's more to it than we're talking about here today. Sure. It's an important one because recognizing that many are where Dave Chappelle is um and a bit stuck, right?
00:14:29
Speaker
And so just using this as an opportunity, Dave might be stuck, but others don't need to be if they don't want to be. You've spoken um just then about his sort of platform and the the size of his audience. And in contrast, there isn't really a trans person who is on that scale when it comes to comedy and making jokes so a lot of the time I guess people are getting their information directly from Dave Chappelle about the trans community and and I suppose that's where this blocker is for a lot of people is that they've only really heard one narrative absolutely yeah it's a good point that if there was a ah comparable you know
00:15:10
Speaker
trans version of Dave Chappelle, you know, Davida Chappelle, um then, you know, perhaps there would be some balance there where, you know, there could be a bit of jostling to have that, but there's none of that trans.
00:15:28
Speaker
There are trans comedians, but they don't have nearly the the reach that he does. um Certainly, I'm sure they're working on it and and would like and want that reach. And we can help them have that reach by supporting them, looking at their comedy and liking and subscribing, all the good stuff that helps them and and going to their shows and
Balancing Comedy Narratives: Supporting Trans Voices
00:15:49
Speaker
whatnot. So definitely plugging and encouraging people to go and Google trans comedians. But yeah, there's nobody there to give a counterpoint or humanize the issue by showcasing
00:16:01
Speaker
you know, comedians. And as I was mentioning, like, trans comedians, they make fun of themselves in a way that brings people together rather than tears them apart. So it's just this really beautiful balance that people strike.
00:16:15
Speaker
And they could talk about real stuff, they can talk about, you know, gender affirming care, and, you know, being perceived at this or being misgendered, or, you know, whatever the case may be. And,
00:16:26
Speaker
that actually, that humor allows people much more insight into that lived experience. um And so, yeah, there's a lot of value. And as I was mentioning, cisgender people can joke about trans people and it can be done really effectively in a way that still is like edgy.
00:16:46
Speaker
You know, people think, oh, it's there's going to be no edge. It's like, no, actually, it gets us to think and stretch and imagine and just be Yeah, ah more interesting.
00:16:58
Speaker
Yeah, there is that kind of, oh, we can't joke about anything anymore. People are too sensitive. But like you you cant absolutely can joke about trans people. It just doesn't have to be vicious. yeah You don't have to lean into the the the sort of stereotypes and the way that it can negatively affect trans people.
00:17:16
Speaker
Yeah. And there's a also sometimes a crudeness too, like in some aspects, and I won't say it word for word, but ah Dave Chappelle ah references bodies, trans bodies in a way that just makes it seem grotesque.
00:17:31
Speaker
And you could tell that he has a disdain. um And while trying to also be, quote, progressive, like this is very weird mixture concoction where I'm just like,
00:17:43
Speaker
don't even know where to kind of listen and and lean and where are we. It's very confusing um to participate in that.
Trans Identity: Authentic Expression, Not an Act
00:17:53
Speaker
And, ah you know, certainly some trans people have stopped listening to Dave Chappelle and others may still be continuing, right?
00:18:03
Speaker
um You know, everybody can make their own choices around that. That's important um not to judge somebody if they do and it's okay if they don't, right um But yeah, this this crudeness that um I know some people like that kind of comedy and it's, you know, it's for those who it's good for, it's fine. But it's one thing to ah kind of, yeah, pick apart somebody's body as a way to say, oh, you're real or not is very kind of gross at the ah father of the at the end of the day.
00:18:39
Speaker
Yeah. Well, and trans bodies are so scrutinized in pretty much every aspect of the world and life and ah in media and pretty much everywhere. So to then have it a joke as well is just really brutal, really picky.
00:18:56
Speaker
You mentioned at the beginning of this about the joke in particular that you that you were sort of referencing to that trans people are choosing their gender. What is the reality of that?
00:19:08
Speaker
Right. Choosing. So, yeah, there's a many, including Dave Chappelle, think that it's a choice, right? ah That somebody is like, maybe even flippantly, like one day wakes up and is just like, I want to be this. And so I'm going to do this, right?
00:19:28
Speaker
And that it's like a thing you strive for, maybe you miss a bit, or maybe you're really good at it, but you're still fooling people, right? um this This concept of like um fooling people is a very big theme. And sometimes that's even a response to people who look how society expects for their gender.
00:19:49
Speaker
And when somebody shares that they're trans, people are incredulous, like, what? I would have never guessed, right? You know, things like this, that the subtext being a you, ah that's not who you are, that's who you're, what you're putting on.
00:20:06
Speaker
Yeah, it's just, it's not the case. for For many trans people, the language that they use, or myself included, i am that, right? It's not something I'm going after. It's something that is being revealed.
00:20:20
Speaker
It's something that was always there. Maybe I had to take a minute to figure it out because, you know, there's a lot of layers I had to take off. of what it is that I am at my core. And, you know, a lot of it being messages that if you hear kind of, you know, a thousand times over years, that just kind of cakes onto you. And so you have to take off those layers to be able to be oneself And so there's effort involved, but it's just, it's not striving for something. It's already there inside.
Enjoying Comedy While Demanding Accountability
00:20:53
Speaker
It's presenting it.
00:20:55
Speaker
So I think that is a ah thing that is really hard for people to realize. um But when they do, especially cisgender people can reflect on Like, how do I know my gender? Sometimes they point to different things to affirm that.
00:21:09
Speaker
ah But even if you didn't have those things, you'd still be your gender. You know what mean? And so that's where you don't have to point to anything. You just are that. Yeah.
00:21:21
Speaker
And so that's why it's so tricky when people say, well, you know, what is a woman? What is a man? And it's just like fish don't know they're swimming in water. It just is. Right. So it's a bit tricky to explain. And certainly it's OK to lean on things outside. Right.
00:21:37
Speaker
That resonate. But. still It's still very much an internal thing. And it's it's there. And that includes gender fluidity too, right? that you know That movement is authentic and always there.
00:21:53
Speaker
And it's just a matter of always becoming. Mm-hmm. So you've talked about how some people who find this topic quite hurtful, quite harmful, maybe stop listening to Dave Chappelle altogether, but others might still listen and still kind of enjoy his comedy aside presumably from the the stuff about trans people.
00:22:15
Speaker
Where is that that balance? Can you still enjoy that kind of edgy or challenging comedy while still holding people accountable? Oh, yeah. I mean, i think the people who are still watching Dave Chappelle's or any other um comedian who's punching down on trans people, because they're a handful.
00:22:38
Speaker
ah Dave's not the only one, um is that they can be witness to what is happening, right? Perhaps things will change, right? um You know, the heats off of Dave Chappelle, he showed that he could survive, right? He thought he would be canceled, but he wasn't, right?
00:22:57
Speaker
He, Netflix continued to platform and showcase his stuff. And so for those who stick around, perhaps they can be witness to something that changes and find out what was the pathway because nobody's ever done.
00:23:13
Speaker
Right. um It might feel hopeless, but perhaps there's something that shifts based on what who knows what. And so they can see that evolution or rapport on if things continue to be the same, right? yeah So I think there is value in people who feel that they can do that, right?
00:23:31
Speaker
For me, it's always a matter of capacity. What's my capacity? And actually, it varies day to day. So sometimes I could have capacity for tad, a little bit of Dave Chappelle.
00:23:43
Speaker
so Now, that said, i do find myself on edge, right? Anytime now that i listen to him, I'm kind of bracing for you know not so pleasant, maybe even awful stuff, um all in the name of edgy comedy or free you to say anything I want comedy.
00:24:04
Speaker
um And so, yeah, it's not as pleasant of an experience anymore. um Again, I really appreciate his insights on and really showcasing, especially to white America,
00:24:19
Speaker
you know, issues of race. um There are some brilliant ones that I just, um you know, mind blown in terms of the genius of how he set that all up with the punchline just perfectly delivered for for white people to really take a look, right?
00:24:35
Speaker
because Some white people don't want to look at. Yeah. soly yeah issues of racism and so you can't do a direct approach so he did another approach and anyways i could go on now that said ah the others choose not to and that's a very understandable we want to you know some people need to preserve their energy and they don't want to apply it or give attention or money add to somebody who is actively still harming um trans people are or not willing to look at what he's doing or take accountability.
00:25:11
Speaker
And that's that's also a fair approach as well.
Comedy's Role in Critical Thinking and Social Commentary
00:25:15
Speaker
So I think any pathway somebody chooses is right for them and is yielding some benefit to what we we're undertaking here.
00:25:23
Speaker
So I think it's also important not to kind of... tell each other what to do on this, right? It's such a personal thing and a very ah sensitive one too, right?
00:25:35
Speaker
Especially, i think, you know but some cisgender people coming from a good place might say, hey, are you sure you want to listen to Dave Chappelle to a trans person, right? We don't want to kind of get involved like that.
00:25:49
Speaker
um Certainly if if a trans person is upset and wants to talk through why something was challenging that they listened to Dave or any other comedian, certainly that's okay.
00:26:00
Speaker
But yeah, ah that's some of my thoughts on how to navigate some of that. And I think there is a way to balance listening with ah keeping him responsible or keeping in dialogue ah in terms of the impact so that...
00:26:18
Speaker
Because oftentimes people can just be like, oh, there really wasn't any issue if people aren't raising it. But if people are, and of course, how you do it helps too, right? If you invite somebody in rather than, you know, calling them out, that can make a difference. But yeah, I think that's important.
00:26:36
Speaker
You've mentioned this a couple of times about that kind of, I can't remember the way you worded it, but it's that kind of free freedom of expression. And there there are some people who believe that the whole point of a comedian is to push these boundaries and to kind of speak to current events in that in that way and and make people look at them as you were talking about with race, um make people see them in a different way. And so that's the kind of whole point of some people's comedy.
00:27:03
Speaker
So where where is that line? Yes. And i I want to say I'm not a comedian, so I appreciate there is a craft, right? And anytime kind of lay people get involved and start telling comedians how to do their comedy, that probably is not the greatest direction.
00:27:21
Speaker
um so I just want to preface all of what I'm about to say with that, because I don't want or Nor do I think other trans people want to get involved in like breaking down and like you know micromanaging comedians. right That's just not the case.
00:27:41
Speaker
But I do think there's something to be said about, and there is room for comedy to... illustrate and to highlight and to bring to the surface what is sometimes but beneath the surface.
00:27:54
Speaker
A lot up to date, trans stuff was underneath the surface and it was bubbling there and it wasn't quite visible. People didn't feel safe, understandably.
00:28:05
Speaker
um And so now it's burst forth in the scene. And comedy is one way of wrestling with that to help integrate it into everyday life um and society in general and kind of update things. And so there is definitely a role for comedy. And sometimes that does involve discomfort.
00:28:26
Speaker
And discomfort is important. And it's not just cisgender discomfort, but it's also sometimes trans discomfort in that as well. But the way that I see comedy or what i'm what kind of comedy I'm drawn to is one that is seeking to be constructive.
00:28:46
Speaker
like It's not trying to resolve things, because I don't think that's the role of the comedian. They're not problem solvers. They're problem surfacers. you know But if it's just about replicating what's already there, that's actually not adding anything.
00:29:02
Speaker
It's just kind of um echoing. It's lazy too. It's so lazy. it's yeah that I'm like, you can do way better. And maybe you have to like take some time with it and build towards something.
00:29:17
Speaker
i don't know. I don't know the techniques, but like you know workshop it a bit um to where you can refine it. But this like taking a shortcut to the basic bare work,
00:29:29
Speaker
already regurgitated thoughts that society has about a topic no matter what it is trans being one of them but there's so many others it's like really that's it i guess i expect more comedians and i agree with you yeah i definitely agree with that because there is something about uh comedy i really love comedy and i love the way that people play with it and especially when it's really intelligent or really clever and they they can use comedy to to showcase that but when it's just no different to what I could hear at the pub you know what I mean like true but you've got this whole platform and you've got all this money and wealth and for what like to to just replicate something my uncle might say that's crazy to me
00:30:12
Speaker
Oh my gosh, you put it so well. i mean, I'm kind of gobsmacked. That's where I land. Especially it's money and time for me. Like you have the time and space because i mean, Dave Chappelle and other comedians who have made it like,
00:30:29
Speaker
sure, there's other things that I'm sure you're responsible for, but you actually have time to like really go deep in a way that you could be super creative and really interesting and like even unlock things in people's minds.
00:30:43
Speaker
Not to say that everything solved unlocking, but more that it allows for another step to come ah for in a way that even surprises trans people. like I love to be surprised when like a cisgender person have like this beautiful interesting insight where I'm like oh my gosh yes and it's like a collective endeavor around figuring out gender because it's a bit of a mystery and a bit of a mess for everybody and so like why not i add another layer of trans to other things that are being wrestled and sorted out so
00:31:18
Speaker
And of course, there'll be diversity in the types of comedians that are out there, and that's okay too. um And some will be drawn to different types of of comedians. But I guess the like crude, crass, and for no purpose, except because I want to say what I want to say, i don't know, feels very empty.
Fostering Empathy Through Storytelling in Comedy
00:31:40
Speaker
I agree. What would you say that, let's say there are people in the past that have found these jokes really funny and have really enjoyed them, and then kind of later on, have realized the impact of that and just feel a bit uncomfortable about that?
00:31:54
Speaker
How can allies or or growing allies, developing allies, move on from that and and grow from that? ah That's really potent. And some people feel ashamed of that. and you know, I appreciate that they might want to hide what they did in the past, you know, and be like, o hope nobody knows about that. and I'm just going to cover it up, sweep it under the cover and, and just walk away and be like, that's the past I do now.
00:32:23
Speaker
But I actually would invite people to share that story. It's very powerful when folks laughed at one time, came to an understanding whatever that is and then are like i don't you know i've i'm doing things differently and for people to know that trajectory that could be helpful to somebody who is perhaps still at the i find this funny stage and for somebody to connect to be like yeah i found that funny too in fact i sought that out and just ate it up and you know felt very self-righteous uh and
00:32:57
Speaker
Then, you know, I met a trans person or I saw this YouTube or I read this article or whatever the case. And then I started to realize x y and Z. And I i did not understand the what I was joking about and why i found it funny. And, you know, just like unpacking it for them so that there's connection around relationship.
00:33:20
Speaker
they laughed at it. um But then also allowing that a bridge to something else or something newer, or something better and can help them not to say that, you know, you're going to convince them immediately.
00:33:35
Speaker
But even just planting a seed ah can be really helpful. So rather than shying away from, you know, what you used to do, i actually invite people to, to share with those who do continue to find that funny.
00:33:49
Speaker
often I think people have this like idea of there's like the holier than thou and the, and the like people at the bottom who don't understand. And I'm going to like lean over and lecture you, but actually if you can, you know what i mean? you can explain where you've been and how you've also made these similar mistakes or you've been in the same situation and now you're not, it's not like I'm going to lecture you. It's like, we can go somewhere with this.
00:34:15
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Or just have a dialogue about it to at least see a different perspective. Because oftentimes people are operating in silos and they're not exposed to another way of looking at something um or realizing something is harmful or could be harmful to someone.
00:34:33
Speaker
and um And connecting in an empathetic, understanding, supportive way can actually help people be like, oh yeah, that would be gross if I heard that.
00:34:45
Speaker
about myself or about a loved one or whatever, right? Like people can connect dots, maybe not right in the moment, maybe later, but it is very powerful and helpful storytelling.
00:34:56
Speaker
But we do have a resource because joking feels... to some inaccessible, especially in the workplace. People are nervous. And you know when it comes to gender or diversity, especially, ah people are shy.
00:35:10
Speaker
And so just you know adding a few parameters for consideration. It's not meant to, you know it's not a do's and don'ts. It's not prescriptive, but just more understanding what can and what's possible and maybe some things to avoid.
00:35:26
Speaker
ah so that, you know, especially if you don't know somebody very well, you're not kind of off course with them. and So there is a place for joking. It's just how you do it. And here's a few tips and tools on how to be kind of landing on one side or the other of that equation. So hopefully that's helpful.
00:35:44
Speaker
It just allows people to relax a little bit more so that they can genuinely embrace joking with confidence. Amazing. Well, thank you so much.
00:35:55
Speaker
Yeah, thank you as well. And bye for now.