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Coping with Custody Battles: Tips for Keeping Anger and Ego in Check (feat. Paul B. Williams, LCSW @basheawilliams)
213 Plays1 year ago
In EPISODE 66 of The Therapy4Dads Podcast, Paul B. Williams, LCSW (@basheawilliams) emphasizes the importance of showing children how to handle adversity and conflict. The episode covers Pauls's personal experience in being financially supportive of his child and navigating custody battles. He also shares tips for managing difficult emotions in co-parenting relationships, prioritizing relationship building between father and child over financial support. Overall, this episode provides valuable insights and practical strategies for fathers facing custody battles and co-parenting challenges.
Paul Williams is a licensed clinical social worker based in the DMV area, who is passionate about helping fathers. As a dad and a husband, he understands the importance of mental health and provides therapy services to clients. Paul is a practice owner, a mentor to other clinicians and host of father's and men's groups both online and in his community. He is dedicated to providing support to other fathers and helping them navigate the challenges that come with parenthood.
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Transcript
Introduction to Therapy for Dads Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
Well, I know sometimes we tend to isolate ourselves, right? We tell ourselves we can do everything by ourselves. We're gonna get through this regardless of how hard it is because we're traditionally taught that man up, you know, tough it out, but you don't have to and you shouldn't.
00:00:15
Speaker
This is a therapy for dads podcast. I am your host. My name is Travis. I'm a therapist, a dad, a husband here at therapy for dads. We provide content around the integration of holistic mental health, well-researched evidence-based education and parenthood. Welcome.
00:00:34
Speaker
Welcome, everybody, to this week's episode of the Therapy for Dads podcast.
Navigating Custody and the Court System as Fathers
00:00:38
Speaker
This week, we have an important topic, one that I think is not talked about enough, especially with men and fathers, and that is working through the court system and custody. And on this week's episode, I have a special guest. I have Paul Bache Williams, who's a licensed clinical social worker. Welcome. Welcome, Paul. Thank you. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.
00:01:02
Speaker
Of course, this is a very important topic, one that I've experienced myself, but also I'm kind of, I'm passionate to help other fathers. But let me do an introduction first. So I'm Paul Vashay-Williams. I'm a licensed clinical social worker in the DMV area. That's DC, Maryland, Virginia. I'm also a dad. I'm a husband. I'm a practice owner. I do a lot of mentoring to other clinicians.
00:01:26
Speaker
and also host a lot of father's groups in the area online and men's groups as well. One reason why I had you on here is for that reason exactly your passion for men and specifically that extra layer that men are as fathers that there's not enough I think of us out there that want to help and have a passion for men and fathers and I think that's why you resonated and wanted to have you on
Paul Bache Williams' Motivation and Background
00:01:49
Speaker
the show.
00:01:49
Speaker
And real quick, kind of what got you into wanting to work with, you know, what was the drive, wanting to work with men and fathers specifically for you? What was that kind of core drive for you? Well, growing up in certain environments and neighborhoods, you see the lack of fathers in the home. You see the lack of fathers in the community. And so I was fortunate for the majority of my life to have my father there. When I was real young, he kind of disappeared for a little bit. I'd say he, well, I'll say this.
00:02:16
Speaker
And I need to be fair because a lot of times when we tell these stories, we don't include the father's perspective. So my mother moved out of New York because New York was dangerous. My father decided to stay back and eventually he came. But during that period, my father wasn't there. I was looking for mentorship, right? I was looking for guidance from a man
00:02:36
Speaker
a father figure. So eventually came back, because we didn't have that emotional relationship, and we didn't have the language to speak, I was young, he was never taught certain things. There was this disconnect. And so I went searching for that connection. And what I did was I found it in my work, right? Why doesn't my father and I have a connection? Why doesn't more why don't more fathers stay in the home? Right? What does a mentor look like? Why
00:03:04
Speaker
Are there so many single mom households? Or why are there so many companies that I worked in in the social work field that are ran by women? And why don't enough men get into the field? And what are all these young boys doing without a father figuring their life? So what is behind that? And so that kind of pushed me into the passion of being something that I needed when I was younger.
00:03:29
Speaker
and also being something that my friends and my colleagues needed when they were younger and growing up and just the lack was just like, okay, let me try to fill in the gap, fill in the holes of some of the different things that were happening around me.
00:03:42
Speaker
Yeah, and that's definitely what I tend to hear a lot of when I talk with the men and women actually is the need and the importance of having a present father. And often where there can be a lack of or various different types of lacking, whether it's emotional lack or distance or physical or psycho, you know, mental, there's some type of disconnect. But we all long for it, you know, it's funny. Anyone in my office, and I'm sure you feel the same way or seen is anyone in your office is,
00:04:11
Speaker
When we approach the subject of moms, but specifically dads, there's this connection or lack or missing connection that we all long for or wired to have and hearing your story a bit about it makes sense that hey, I want to I want to figure this out and figure out what is this really about for me and then seeing the
00:04:30
Speaker
just the kind of theme and the similarities among other people, other men, other women, people in communities and in social work field as well as schools, jobs, occupations, just life of the importance of fathers and the importance of their role in every every kid's life.
00:04:46
Speaker
And so, you know, I'm so glad that you're doing the work you're doing, and I could tell you clearly care about this, the importance and role of fathers, and not just them, but having a healthy relationship. And I know that's what you're really trying to help present-day fathers do is work on themselves, and also help them work through maybe some of the hurt and lack of their earthly father, their biological father, or adoptive father, or whatever it
Challenges Fathers Face in Custody Battles
00:05:12
Speaker
is.
00:05:12
Speaker
And so, you know, coming to today, this topic, you know, which is very specific, but important is just, you know, how do dads and men, how they navigate, you know, when there's custody, when there's a court case, when we have to kind of work through really a type of trauma and whether that's an intended or unintended, whether it's something that
00:05:31
Speaker
It was a mutual decision for both parties to end things, or it wasn't, and then now we're in the midst of court system and dealing with lawyers and finances and custody, and that could be such a confusing place, I think, for a lot of...
00:05:49
Speaker
Men, what do I do with this? I've never even thought about this and now all of a sudden I have to come up with all this stuff So coming to the day's topic, you know How do we navigate custody in the court systems as a father with when it comes to our children? So just go ahead and jump right in and start sharing that I know this is personal to you as well as professional
00:06:07
Speaker
Yeah, so this is a very touchy, very important conversation, and I'll say that and I'll share some of my experiences as well as working for child welfare, working as a court liaison for years, just working in a system, helping with parental reconciliation with the children.
00:06:25
Speaker
dealing with emotional cutoff that some kids have had because of their experiences with their fathers. And the father's not having the language to reconnect, but having the desire to. So what happens a lot of times, as you said, it can be mutual. It could be something that's happened within the relationship where there's a breakup or there's a divorce or whatever happens, or there might not have been a relationship, but a child is born. So what do you do now? If you want to be in that child's life,
00:06:55
Speaker
And I actually think that there is that's probably a whole nother topic, but child support and outlet. But I actually think that it should be some type of relationship building as opposed to the financial experience with with the father and the child. Right. I think it should be tied to a responsibility. You have to be in your child's life and you have to be monitored in order to be a healthy father in a child's life as opposed to
00:07:22
Speaker
you get to go away and not have a relationship because you're paying, right? And so that's a whole different topic and a whole different discussion. But just for navigating, as I've dealt with this, it's very difficult, right? Because initially the thought of the court system, in my experience and many other father's experience that I work with, and data shows that as well.
00:07:48
Speaker
The initial thought is that mom is the safe bet. Mom is the parent that the child should be with. Dad is the second thought.
00:08:01
Speaker
And so when you come into the court system or you file or you receive a court document that says that you are now, your child's mother is filing for custody, you're filing for child support, that starts to hit a certain place. Emotionally, you feel like, why am I experiencing this? And mentally, you're also having those thoughts of,
00:08:25
Speaker
What did I do to get here? If it's a healthy relationship, let's kind of move it in different relationships so I can be more succinct when I'm talking about this. So if you are in a co-parenting relationship, there's no court involved. And then somebody decides, i.e. mom decides that I want to file for child support, right? The relationship, you think everything is going well. As far as co-parenting, there's no emotional or romantic relationship with her. And then you experience that.
00:08:55
Speaker
And so now you have to go through this process of, first, you're feeling like the reason why she's filed for child support and what the court sees is that you're not an involved dad. You're not financially supportive. You're not present. So we just need to get your money. That's a whole separate court in Maryland, at least in Maryland.
00:09:17
Speaker
Child support is different from custody. So now when you get to child support, all you're looking at and all they're looking at is how much you make, how much time you have the child, and what are the child's expenses.
Financial Implications of Child Support
00:09:30
Speaker
And it's calculated. There's no other data that's or no other information that really matters in that than you come up with a number.
00:09:39
Speaker
Right. If you make more than the mother and you have the child more than the mother, you still may be liable to pay. So now imagine being in that position because you make more. They're not giving you more time with the child.
00:09:53
Speaker
but they're taking more money from you. So what does that do to the relationship, right? You're upset at the court, you're upset at mom, but sometimes you think as a child as the problem. So now we have to have a different conversation of the child is not the problem. Your relationship with the child's mother, your relationship with the court is the issue. So you still need to be able to be the same dad that you were prior to that.
00:10:19
Speaker
to your child because they deserve it and you deserve it too because there's a multitude of relationships when you're dealing with that. There's a relationship with the system, there's a relationship with the mother, there's a relationship with the child and once you learn to separate that it's a little bit healthier and how to manage that. Yeah and you said a couple things that I think is so key you know we there's different types of relationships going in it's the mutual co-parent where everything's okay where
00:10:43
Speaker
Typically, the court doesn't get involved, but we're not talking about those. We're talking about the ones where maybe it switches, something turns, and someone wants custody, or someone wants finances or support, and then the dad or the man has to deal with all these different changes in relationship. And so with that particular lens,
00:10:59
Speaker
Um, you know, what have you seen or have you coached men working through that when they are dealing with now the frustration or anger towards court or now towards mom? Um, because now it has shifted and now they're having to see their kid and fight. Like how have you coached them engaging their kids or to separate that? How, what have you found successful as well as maybe some of the common themes you've heard men deal with in that space?
00:11:21
Speaker
Well, I first talked about what I had to do because I experienced it prior to helping others. And that kind of gave me on the ground practice. And so my experiences was I was always financially supportive because I just thought the world and I still think the world of my son. And I didn't think it would be his mother's responsibility to to be the sole caretaker financially or anything.
00:11:47
Speaker
So even the thought process is that I will only provide when he's with me. I never thought that. I thought that I am the provider regardless of where he is. And so if I'm going to go see him, I'm bringing food, clothes for the week that he's not with me. I'm making sure the refrigerator is stocked at a different place. If there's other things that need to be paid for, I'm making sure I'm supportive. But hearing
00:12:14
Speaker
experiencing that and hearing that I'm going to take you to court for child support based on something that has zero to do with the co-parenting relationship. It was more about extracurricular activity, a flight that was suggested that I should pay for.
00:12:32
Speaker
And so I had already set boundaries on what it looks like for me to be a dad and not a partner. And so once those boundaries were set, I was clear, but sometimes we don't have the same thought process and the same expectations. And this is what happened when I see other men too. Sometimes we don't set clear boundaries on what that relationship looks like.
00:12:55
Speaker
And so if we are not only providing for the child, but sometimes we want to take the mom out or we want to do extra things that sets a tone and an expectation or just a routine that this is what your money looks like at mine. And so we don't have enough conversations around what that boundary looks like in the financial space.
00:13:14
Speaker
And so it bleeds over. And now we find ourselves in these difficult conversations, difficult circumstances. And here we are. We're going to court because we haven't kept up what was consistent. Yeah. So the unspoken unspoken things. Yeah. Nothing clear. Okay. Yeah.
00:13:31
Speaker
Right. And so my experience is when I went to court, there was a whole different, there was a shame. There was the guilt. There was confusion, frustration. There was anger. There was, how dare you? There was like me checking in on myself. Am I not being a good father? Am I not being a good provider? Should I do something different?
00:13:55
Speaker
And the first day I walked into court and talked to the attorney who supports her was, OK, we're going to see how much money that we're going to get from you. And so we're having a conversation.
00:14:10
Speaker
I just need you to write any documents. Well, here's a documents of time that he's with me. We're not really worried about that. We just need to know how much you make and how much the expenses are. So that initial meeting put me on guard, put me in the defensive. I'm already thinking this is going to be one of those situations where I'm not going to have any money. Like all of my money is going to be going towards
00:14:33
Speaker
her. And then the thought process is, what is she going to do with that extra money? She's going to go shopping. She's going to do these things. She's going to like all this money is not going to go towards our son. But I had to kind of sit with myself and say, I need to go through this process. And I need to not worry about where each dollar goes. Because ultimately, the thought process is
00:14:54
Speaker
whatever goes over there, there's something that's going towards him. I mean definitely shocking it sounds like when you first walked in is what not you well you said not what you expected it's like wait a second you're taking you're measuring my role as a father is not based on time what I'm doing but kind of my finances and right I mean that just sounds like that would be that would send me for a spin of like wait a sec hold on like why are we talking that's not even on the table here like this is not
00:15:18
Speaker
at least for your experience and being a dad who was already involved and had kind of a system in place of connecting and providing regardless of what home he's in. And you know, I would say a very healthy, mature outlook of like, hey, no, this is my son, regardless of what home he's in, this is my son. And I know that's not every father, every man. We're not talking about that. That's another sad conversation. But you were here and now all of a sudden you come in the courtroom and you're like, no, we don't care about that.
00:15:45
Speaker
these three things and the shock of that and the, and then even making you question yourself for a second, like, wait a second, wait, am I doing everything? You know, that, you know, reeling and kind of that, the stress, the anxiety and the anger and all the mixed of emotions and that must have been extremely difficult. And yeah, so how did you navigate that? It was a process. I tell you, I leaned in on a good mentor who's still a mentor today and just was having that conversation.
00:16:14
Speaker
who kind of just helped me emotionally, right? And just was a support system. And I so appreciate him to this day and also leaned on my son's godfather who had been through the experience prior. And I think at that particular time, I also got EAP, I got a therapist. I was a young social worker at the time.
00:16:38
Speaker
And so I wasn't into therapy. I haven't decided if I was going to be a therapist or not, but I was working on wraparound services. And so I decided to utilize EAP and said, you know what? I need to get some psychological support around this whole process. Because again, the thoughts were all over the place, ruminating thoughts. They were just coming from out of nowhere. Like again, from every emotion you think of to every thought was attached to that emotion.
00:17:08
Speaker
And what eventually happened was after several meetings, well, let me go back before the continuous court, because it was about five different court hearings.
Balancing Legal Obligations and Empathy in Court
00:17:19
Speaker
Now I'm operating on calculating everything. I'm not buying so freely, right? I'm not just handing over money. I'm not just now I'm writing checks. I'm writing in the memo what this check is for just for documentation.
00:17:36
Speaker
I'm buying a calendar and I'm crossing off each day that he's with me. I am very careful with language. It was healthy and unhealthy. That process of figuring out what those boundaries look like was a difficult one because it wasn't as just a smooth transition. There was tension between us, of course, because I can no longer trust. I didn't understand where this came from. It didn't make sense to me.
00:18:05
Speaker
But that also showed me that I needed to have firm boundaries when it comes to the interaction. But the other thing that came out is that I never wanted to go to court. I never wanted to have my son in the system. What I thought it was, the way that I envisioned my son being in the system, me being in the system, going to the court system online and seeing my name under child support.
00:18:32
Speaker
and then having the shame of my friends and everybody in my family. It's like, cause the idea, and then it comes from your job, you're on child support. Like, are you really involved with your son? What are you doing on child support? It's that immediate like judgment that people assume if you're on child support that you must be not a good father. Is that what you were hearing? Like the immediate judgment, is that what it felt like or was it different? No, that was it. And plus I have colleagues who are not in their child's lives at that particular time.
00:19:02
Speaker
And I saw the disconnect because I was a little bit of, you know, I judged them for not being in a child's life.
00:19:10
Speaker
and also created a distance because I was like, what type of father are you not to be in your child's life? Right. And you didn't see your student identity with them. It's like, no, that's, that's what custody means. That's not, or, you know, that that's our child support that that's not me. Like I'm not that. Yeah. Okay. Right. Yeah. Right. Exactly. Then you hear the gripes. It's like, I get paid, but 80% of my check goes to child support. I
00:19:34
Speaker
Like all those different things are happening at the same time. And again, I never wanted to be involved with the court system. So we go through this process and the attorney eventually is on my side, even though she's representing her because some of the language that was said in there.
00:19:51
Speaker
It was presented as if I'm not involved. So now we are the documentation that I am. So I have to prove that to the court and to the attorney. The request for a certain amount of money, the attorney said, that's not how it works. This is how it works. We get to the court. The court wants to show empathy, but has to follow the law. No, this is what it is. But the other part of it, we're not leaving it up to you, Mr. Williams. We have to go through your job and send them the paperwork and it's going to automatically be deducted from
00:20:21
Speaker
your paycheck. Now, at that particular time, all that was coming out of my check was $113 per pay period. That was way less than what I was doing, because it would be randomly, I would give 200 on a Friday,
00:20:38
Speaker
300 on a Saturday, if I got something from a speaking engagement or something, I always thought that, okay, half goes to my son, half goes to the environment. But it just shifted, but it created that boundary, although I went through that ugly phase of it or the uncomfortable phase, it created a necessary boundary.
00:20:58
Speaker
And from that point on, that's when I had to file for custody because we weren't just going to have the child support running things. We needed to have the custody and I wanted to consolidate the cases, which eventually happened. But going through the custody process, that's a whole different process. Very excruciating, very expensive, very long. So many different things came out of there. There were times I wanted to give up because of the information that was being said to me.
00:21:28
Speaker
said about me in the documents, there were times when my son and I bought him a dog and all of a sudden there's an attorney saying that, well, we don't feel like the dog is, it's a safety hazard for your son. So you need to get rid of the dog. It's a puppy, it's a puggle. Do you know how vicious puggles are, right? No. It's a big one of puggles. I know exactly what a puggle looks like. It was like, boop. I'm like, yeah.
00:21:56
Speaker
Yeah, I mean God, I mean it's hearing this, it just sounds like, you know, yeah, I could see the guilt and the shame of hitting him because it's kind of peeling back every aspect of your life, but now everyone knows and aware and I'm not, now I don't identify with this grouping of fathers that I would maybe call absent or not really involved because I am an involved father, I've always been an involved father, but now these rules and lines are coming in and…
00:22:19
Speaker
I have to be calculated. Like I can't just be with my son. And now I'm thinking about, I'm just imagining just the stress and anxiety, feeling of like, okay, is it on the calendar? Did I document? Did I do this? Did I do this? I'm trying to think, how did you stay present with your kid? Was that hard? Was that easy? Did you navigate that? How did you navigate that? I'm sure ups and downs, but can you talk about that?
Personal and Professional Balance During Custody Battles
00:22:45
Speaker
One of the things that I always say, I thank God for the position that I was in as far as career, again, working for wraparound services, very flexible schedule. So once I had the custody that we agreed to prior to it being on an actual document, I was able to navigate my schedule around that. And so when I was with him, nothing in the world mattered. The court hearing didn't matter.
00:23:11
Speaker
the custody, the child support, what was happening at work, it was all about him. I wanted to pour into him and I just wanted to be present for him. I was able to kind of put that stuff to the side for the moment. Now it came back once he was sleeping, I felt the shame, I felt the fear. What if this says, what if this is taken away from me? What if I don't have as much time with him? What does that mean for me? What does that mean for our relationship?
00:23:38
Speaker
But when he was up and present, he's such a likable kid. He was such fun to be around. And even if they're not, it's still like my responsibilities. I needed to give him my best. And he gave it back in return because it wasn't just me pouring into him. His love was pouring into me, was also restoring the fire and the zest to fight for what this relationship looks like. There were times when
00:24:03
Speaker
It was really bad and I would go into the room. I would let him play in the living room and I would go into his room, my room or whatever it was. And he literally would come to me and say,
00:24:14
Speaker
pop up, you're my hero, like out of nowhere. And so when I'm on my, you know, my, at my lowest point, and he comes in and says that, okay, yeah, yeah, I like put your cape back on. Yeah, yeah, this is this is this is necessary. It's just unfortunate. Yeah, let's fire it. How long was that? I mean, ensure how long was the whole process for your give or take that the custody as well as the child support? Like how long did that take?
00:24:39
Speaker
Well, I was on child support for about... So once I got the papers from child support, that next day I wouldn't file for custody. But there's a process. You have to be served. You have to go through there's some things like that. There was a little bit of avoidance from the custody stuff, but I showed up for the child support stuff. So that happened first. So I was on child support for three and a half months. By the time we got to the court thing, maybe it's a six month process. And this is pre-COVID. This is years ago.
00:25:06
Speaker
So we didn't have the stalls, the delays or anything like that. And so I think this whole process took about six months. Yeah, I mean, every day, every, you know, you're thinking about this every single day, I'm sure, right? Unless you're within the moments with your son, which is amazing, you're able to do. I'm sure you've coached a lot of dads that maybe struggle with kind of that, which I can only imagine. It's not easy to kind of just put that over here. You have some training from being
00:25:30
Speaker
a clinician to do that, which I'm sure helped you. But I'm sure a lot of dads are stuck. They're just like it's in their head and in the constant anxiety. I mean, so many emotions, guilt, fear, worry, anxious, you know, when's it gonna get over? Are they gonna see what my involvement? Are they gonna take it away? Because I'm sure you've seen some men and fathers who are involved who it doesn't go their way.
00:25:51
Speaker
Right, right. And now they have to deal with that reality. And now how do I deal with this? And I don't get cussier. I get less than I, you know, I get less than I would like. And now I got to only see them at certain times. And I can't even imagine what that must be like to be away from your kiddo when you just want to be there and hey, I'm here, I'm present. And yours lasted this long. And, you know, what kept coming back to me is, you know, like you had your these dark moments and your someone come in and say, hey, you're my hero. And you'd feel that fire and they came back going like that's why I'm doing this.
00:26:19
Speaker
And I know for some men and fathers, it's not always that way. They might have a harder relationship with their kid, but no, they still feel this pull to do it because maybe the kid is angry at going through their own emotions about what's going on, right? And that's the reality too, that kids are in the middle of all this, whether they ask to be or not, right? And often they tend to be the unfortunate, yeah, the recipient of like, they didn't ask for this. They didn't ask for mom, dad, whoever to go to court. They didn't ask for this tension, but they're in it.
00:26:49
Speaker
And so with that, how did you, how did you navigate that with your son? Like, did it affect him a lot? Was it kind of like he was oblivious or was he aware? Was it kind of, how did you navigate that? He never, I won't say he never knew. We actually talked about this later, but navigating that also the language that I used around him.
00:27:05
Speaker
Like I never encouraged him that he shouldn't go back to his mom's house. I never talked about what was happening between us. I wanted to also be that safe space for him where he feels like everything is happiness, right? He's never at an older age. He's never really seen us together. So we're talking about he was one when we split.
00:27:26
Speaker
So he's never really seen us in the same household doing the couple thing. It's always been a co-parenting in his eyes. He has two parents that are not together. And so it was just that environment for him.
00:27:40
Speaker
that it was my responsibility to to create and to sustain. And so he feel he doesn't feel the print like I'm almost like the shoulder that blocks or the back that blocks all the things that he could experience if I move out the way. Yeah. Yeah. So that was very helpful for me. But what would really help me through this process, too, is journaling.
00:28:03
Speaker
I did a lot of journaling. I didn't run from the experiences. I didn't run from the feelings. I jotted them down and
Emotional Support and Processing for Fathers
00:28:10
Speaker
I explored them. I said, what is this coming from? What is this feeling? What is this thought? I started a journal even guess because I was in grad school when he was born. He was born. I was graduating. He was born in April and I was graduating in May. And so I was able to
00:28:27
Speaker
be there for the birth, but I had to go and finish school. And so I used to write letters every day, like the letter to my son. God told me to tell you this today, you know, when you get older, these things may pop up. We're going to have a discussion about this. Let me tell you what happened to me, kind of like coaching myself on the language and how to speak to my son. And so it's already kind of set in stone. And during that process, I was also able to connect with my own emotions.
00:29:15
Speaker
and all the proceeds go right back into all the work that I'm doing, into production, and to continue to grow the show to bring on new guests. So again, head on over to buymeacoffee.com forward slash therapy for dads. Thanks, and let's get back to the show.
00:29:16
Speaker
And now for
00:29:31
Speaker
It sounds like a therapist. Um, cause that's, you know, journaling and a couple of things that, you know, I want to, I think be specific on. And I think to help men that are either going through this or might go through this is you said a few things that helped you navigate this. And you know, you said going to mentors and go into, you know, having a support system, you said journaling. Um, those are huge, but I know a lot of men don't do that or have that. Right.
00:29:57
Speaker
And so what do you when you work with men and fathers that are going through this, how do you what are some of like the three or four things you teach them to navigate? And I'm assuming journaling and relationships are part of it. But what are those things you help them like build into their system to help them navigate the ups and the downs? So the first thing is identifying the true emotion of what you're experiencing.
00:30:19
Speaker
And when they come and talk to me about it, they start off very angry. This is what she did. This is I can't see my son. I can't see my daughter. This is OK. What does that feel like? Right. I just feel powerless. You know, let's identify the true emotion, the true thoughts behind that. So once we can get to the core, we can we can work with that. We can address that. We can kind of
00:30:44
Speaker
manage that emotion. And so it doesn't turn into this other thing that makes it worse. All right. So that's, that's the first thing. And so even if you're not in therapy, even if you don't have that mentor and coach kind of sit with yourself for a moment and say, what am I experiencing? What is frustration come?
00:31:01
Speaker
Is it tied to the argument between her? Is it tied to the experience? How do I coach myself on the next interaction? Just because I can make it worse, or I can make it manageable, or I can make it better. Those are three different things. And I don't want to lose myself in this process. I don't want to feel like she's taken advantage of me. I don't want to feel like she's in full control. But also, again, when we're talking about the relationships, there's different relationships.
00:31:31
Speaker
And so when that happens, we have to let go of our ego some because we want to come in and automatically snatch control and be angry and know that sometimes that is the goal of the co-parent. Sometimes that is the ignorance of the co-parent or the ignorance of ourselves when we want to go and disrupt everything.
00:31:52
Speaker
And what are some practical ways you give those guys ways of letting go of their ego? Like what are some, you know, two or three things you help them with the practice that putting ego aside. We asked the question, what is your goal? What is your goal of this interaction? Is your goal to control? And your goal is to get back at her as your goal to see your child. So now we've we've thought about that. OK, so what is what has worked and what hasn't worked? What boundaries did you need to set in?
00:32:21
Speaker
does it need to be a situation where the exchange is at school, the exchange is through a identified mutual person to, and that's the, I can't, I lost the term for it, parallel parenting, right? It's not always co-parenting is not a healthy thing, so the parallel parenting. Do you have someone that you both trust to help
00:32:43
Speaker
navigate or help you guys really have better and more healthier conversations. Do you need to go, you need to speak less and type more? Because sometimes the emotions get attached to it. Do you attach yourself to everything that's involved in that text message or that voicemail or that email? Let's stay focused, get out of the clouds, the things that cause the emotional dysregulation, you know, the things that kind of shake us up
00:33:13
Speaker
the things that trigger us, the things that activate us, let's stay away from that. You can see it, process it, but don't respond to it. And maybe sometimes, and this does go back to journaling, maybe sometimes, and this is something that I used to do, I used to write what I really wanted to write. Like, here's my initial reaction. And then I would delete it and then write what I needed to say. Yeah. So allowing the rawness, allowing the anger, allowing the frustration, the rage, just to kind of be raw without judgment.
00:33:44
Speaker
And just like go and I like that just to let it out and then delete it and start again Almost like we need to release that energy sometimes Yeah, and especially men like, you know, let's just get it out whether it's through journaling or go do a hard workout I've done that with guys like hey go punch a punching bag man Go go do something hard where you get the energy out then come back and think because I think that's the where we I see a lot of men you probably to where they get in troubles because they don't deal with that and
00:34:08
Speaker
Anger the rage and they go in and they forget their goal. I think that's so key is what is your ultimate goal here? If it's to be with your kid, that's the that's the kind of the rudder here That's keeping you on on task and on target of what you're aiming at. So everything has to be around that So if we need to go right just let it out let that steam out and it's okay and then come back and write it again and okay now that you're calm and
00:34:30
Speaker
What do you really want to say? What's important to say? What keeps you aligned with your ultimate goal, which in this we'll assume it's, I want to be with my kid. We'll assume that. For the dads listening to this podcast, it's like, I want to be with my kid. Good. That's, that's, we want to help coach you. Um, I want to be with my kid. And so yeah, journaling is great, writing stuff down. And what do you say to the dads that say, Oh, I don't know how I'm feeling. I don't know what I'm feeling.
00:34:53
Speaker
So that's an interesting thing and I know I'm going to plug myself right here. So I have a journal. Please do. Please do. It's the father's journal and it has the emotional will in it. And so you get to identify and choose which emotion that you're feeling and you're experiencing and then you write from that.
00:35:10
Speaker
love it awesome i'm definitely gonna plug okay everyone that's gonna be the show notes i'm gonna plug that please that's great because i think a lot of men that i've worked with too and i'm sure paul is that a lot of men struggle with that emotional language that emotional intelligence fenders various reasons
00:35:25
Speaker
various factors, but without going over there, that's a whole other, you know, probably series on men and masculine emotions. But a lot of men struggle with, I don't know, I just know I'm angry. Because we know anger, we know rage, we know that. But it's what is it? And I think having a guide that Paul has is great to like, at least it's helping build that skill of, oh, maybe it's this, maybe it's this. So please check it out if you need it. This is, it's great to have that as a guide. It's how you build that intelligences by practicing.
00:35:55
Speaker
And then you start to kind of have the language to know, okay, what is behind my anger? Is it that I'm helpless, right? I feel powerless, which I think is a lot of what they really feel in the situation, shame, guilt, et cetera. So that's awesome. I didn't know you did that. That's really cool. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Then the other part is that, I mean, even with people who know the emotions, they still don't know what to write. Right. Right. Absolutely. So what am I, am I writing a letter to my child? Am I writing a letter to my child's mother? Am I writing?
00:36:20
Speaker
Sometimes it's a letter to myself. Sometimes it's just a brain dump. Yeah, I love that. And you just get to vomit all over paper and it's gone. Yeah. I love the vomiting part. I've done that before too. And then I tear it up and toss it out and start again, right? Absolutely.
00:36:37
Speaker
Yeah, okay, good. So I love that you have that. Please, guys, check it out if you need it. It's there. It'll be in the show notes for you to click on to buy and purchase. Yeah, understanding our emotions is so key in this. Part of this is such an emotional experience. Yeah. It's a big part. Big part. Right. Yeah. I want to go back to just a little bit of the court experience.
Legal Advice and Community Support for Fathers
00:36:56
Speaker
Yes, please. You definitely need to get an attorney. I know some men like to go in and say, well, I got all the answers. I'm going to do it.
00:37:04
Speaker
It is expensive. I'm going to say that. But it's also an investment. It's an investment into this experience. And that's another process. You have to also provide documentation. You have to stay on point. It's a boundary. But I also saw it as a necessary investment in a boundary that was needed in order for me to continue to see my son and eventually to see my son more.
00:37:30
Speaker
And what are some of the initial reasons why men don't get attorneys initially? Like I think you said one of them is expenses, then also the feeling, I got this, right? That kind of hubris of like, I know what I'm doing, but what else? And also feeling like, you know, you hear the stories that I got an attorney and it didn't work out for me.
00:37:47
Speaker
I heard my friend got an attorney and it's actually worse and he went back and did it by himself and I'm using his information, his advice and he's going to coach me through this. But the automatic thought that I've heard several times is that when we don't go into court with an attorney, we're not taking this serious.
00:38:13
Speaker
Yeah, and that's the court's perspective you mean right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, you got to play the game in a way like that What are they looking for? Are they looking for how serious his dad and one of them is? Oh, do they have an attorney or not? Well, they don't care about you can afford or not, right? They don't care about that They care is he it's almost like a is it like a box like oh, he's got an attorney so that that's check one that okay He must care
00:38:35
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. And attorneys have relationships with judges. So understanding that as well. And then if you come to court without an attorney or you decide to go through this process without an attorney and the co-parent has an attorney.
00:38:47
Speaker
The co-parent's attorney has a relationship with the court system, the judge, and also has very specific language to address these different things that your co-parent wants, right? You get caught up in your ego. Again, you get caught up in the lack of knowledge and understanding education. And then all of a sudden you're in court flabbergasted, like, what's going on here?
00:39:13
Speaker
I thought I was doing the right thing. Here's my stuff judge and you want to speak out and you're not supposed to. So there's a there's a certain order to that. And I can see that being leaving any man in that moment defensive because it because it is. It's the whole courts. It's a whole different language in a way. Right. It's not it's not typical dialogue like this. It's not a back and forth. It's yeah. Yeah.
00:39:35
Speaker
And there's a lot of resources in the court system for both sides, right? We just have to take advantage of them, right? They have the mentoring in there. They have the, what is the word that I'm looking for? There's someone to help the both of them just communicate. They have the different classes and all of that.
00:39:58
Speaker
So you want to participate in everything because you're taking it serious. You're taking time out of your work day. You're taking time out of your leisure time. You're doing these things because that's what a father does. We show up. Yeah, we show up.
00:40:11
Speaker
Once you get into that whole court system and you're filing, making sure you're having your eyes dotted and your T's crossed, you want to talk about language with each other, like how you speak about the co-parent when they're with you and how they speak. You want to be very succinct when it comes to every single detail with that court order. Because even after that, there's another layer of what's court has done is implementing that court order.
00:40:41
Speaker
What happens when somebody violates it, right? There's so many different things that we go through both sides, but we're talking about men right now that go through when we have a court or we thought the fight was over, but somebody violates the court. And now we have to start this process all over. Kind of start bringing more money. More time. More time.
00:41:02
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it can be a long, depending on the nature of the relationship, it can be a very long, arduous process over and over and over again. I know I've coached men that have went through this from the child for 18 years. Wow. Wow. Just exhausted, but never gave up.
00:41:21
Speaker
So I'm wondering, since we're on that, what kept them in, in that never, you know, that's a long, I'm trying to 18 years. Let's say, you know, that's, you know, what kept them going? Those guys that, that it wasn't like a clean, like, okay, we're good. Everyone's fondant because that does happen. People follow the agreements and everything's okay. And, but those guys, what, what did you see in them? What did they possess that kept them moving forward? They continue to want to be a dad.
00:41:48
Speaker
That was it. It was nothing else. It wasn't ego. It wasn't, I want to beat her. It wasn't any of that. It was, I want to be in my child's life and I have to do this part. And I'm also teaching myself resilient and I'm also telling my son or daughter.
00:42:05
Speaker
that I will never give up on you. Regardless of what I'm facing, I will never give up on you. Yeah. That's the ultimate goal. The ultimate driver is that, no, I'm here. I'm showing up regardless of what happens, regardless of what court, because kids aren't going to get that when they're young. They're not going to understand. Right. One day when they get older, maybe when they're 18, 19, 20, they could have the conversation and understand what the dad went through. That's a talk about a hero.
00:42:27
Speaker
You know, every day and I'm sure they had low moments. And so those guys that might be facing that, that might have those low moments, how would you want to encourage them? Or maybe they're just starting off and it's like, you know, it's coming up here in a month or two and they got to now go to court for the first time and do this. Like, what would be some of your words of encouragement from both professional and personal experience? Well, I know sometimes we tend to isolate ourselves, right? We tell ourselves we can do everything by ourselves. We're going to get through this.
00:42:56
Speaker
regardless of how hard it is because we're traditionally taught that man up, you know, tough it out, but you don't have to and you shouldn't. There are a lot of support systems that are in your area. I'm sure they are. You can Google them. There's all types of groups. I was part of several different groups. I started groups, even if
00:43:14
Speaker
there's one, even if you don't have one, you haven't seen one, start one. Reach out to someone. I would just, again, start off by saying, don't try to do this by yourself. Lean in on those who love you and then build community that will support you. And support comes accountability too, because this is not just about you getting your way and everybody believing everything that you got. You need a level of accountability because we have to check ourselves as well as saying, well, I might be asking for too much. I might be doing
00:43:40
Speaker
too much. I might be the one that's agitating the situation. So let me back up and kind of reset and then try to address what's happening in front of me. Yeah. In that experience with that, you said you brought that up. Is there something that one thing that you needed to work on during this process for yourself that you found, wow, this is something I need to address in my own life and then began to? Yeah.
00:43:59
Speaker
I had to constantly tell myself that it's not about me and it's not about her. And one of the things my mother told me early, and she says the greatest gift that I can give to my son is to honor his mother. So even in disconnect, even when she was doing certain things, I needed to honor her in a way that my son saw it. That doesn't mean that I was okay with the things that she did. That doesn't mean I celebrated or I welcomed those things, but I wasn't going to match those things. So to me, that was honoring him, honoring her,
00:44:29
Speaker
in those moments. So he's never seen me be agitated, disrespectful, heightened in front of her. And I'm proud of that. It's good to be proud. I'm proud of that. I would be too. Yeah. And so I can, yeah. And I can have a conversation with him on how to handle conflict.
00:44:45
Speaker
Right, and that's the seed you're planting. I think that's the key is you're... I think you're showing how to handle adversity and conflict, especially when things don't go your way, because they're sponges. They pick up everything that you're doing. And what a proud thing about staying here today and say, no, you know, was it perfect? No, but I showed him well and consistently what it looks like to respect, even if you disagree, even if things don't go your way, how to show respect and not go to the same level, but kind of be up here above approach. And he saw that, how you conducted yourself, how you spoke.
00:45:14
Speaker
Even if she was doing something that was way out of, you know, way out of left field, it's like, okay, I'm not going there. Here's what I'm doing because it is easy. I think for a lot of us, a lot of men, anyone to like, if you get hurt, it's like warming her back, right? Because that's, it's that automatic defense. I got to prove myself and then that's the ego. That's the, you know, and that's when we're not getting support when we're kind of do it alone. We're not identifying what we're feeling when we're right. Those are all the pitfalls, right? Is trying to do it alone.
00:45:37
Speaker
not being aware of yourself, not being aware of your ego, not being aware of your goal, like what is your purpose here? Because your ultimate goal is, I want to be a good example to my son, to my daughter, so they see their father showing up regardless, and they put their cape on regardless. Not that they're perfect, but that they see a real human, a human being who has emotions, but is able to compose and navigate those difficult emotions. Yeah.
00:46:02
Speaker
Yeah. And I would say this too, when you talk about taking care of yourself during this process, don't lose the things that you love outside of that. So you talked about music, you talked about working out all those different things. Like I never stopped doing those things. On the days when he was not with me, I made sure I had that outlet. I made sure I was playing basketball, playing flag football, writing songs, doing whatever I was doing. I needed that outlet.
00:46:28
Speaker
I didn't need to get totally lost in what I was experiencing through that process. So another really good tip through this of care is don't, yeah, have good, healthy hobbies, outlets that you can be creative or physical because that's, you know, you got to take care of your whole self, your whole being. You know, as you kind of wrap up, the final thing is where can we find you? How can we reach out for you if you need support or to find what you're doing? Obviously, I'm going to link that that journal. But how else can we get ahold of you, Paul?
00:46:56
Speaker
Yeah, everything is pretty much Bosche Williams and that's B A S H E A Williams. My website is Bosche Williams.com. My Instagram is Bosche Williams. You just Google Bosche Williams. All my links and stuff will come up LinkedIn, all of that. Um, and you can find me all over to be honest with you. I have my hand in a little bit of everything right now trying to get settled. Um, but I'm at a great time.
00:47:20
Speaker
with my son getting ready to go to college. Like this is a wonderful time. So we're doing college trips. But yeah, if you'll see my son when you see me, so, but yeah, just Google by Shay Williams and you'll see.
00:47:35
Speaker
All my links. Well Paul, it's been such a pleasure and there's so many other ways I wanted we could talk about more things I'm like oh that these are all important subjects because you're right there's a lot of things that go into this in the court and this was definitely not an exhaustive but I think a really good start for if you're there guys first and foremost you're not alone
00:47:53
Speaker
There is support. Reach out whether in your area. Reach out to Paul if you need some more professional support if you're in that area or just get his book. I'm gonna have all your links. Everyone's gonna be in the description below for his website, Instagram, everything about him. He's gonna be clickable to take you right where you need to go. Thank you so much for your time today, Paul, and have a great rest of your day. Thank you. Thanks.
00:48:16
Speaker
Thanks for joining and listening today. Please leave a comment and review the show. Dads are tough, but not tough enough to do this fatherhood thing alone.