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Are All-Gender Washrooms Unhygienic?
33 Plays1 month ago
“Won’t all-gender bathrooms be gross?”
When organizations introduce all-gender, multi-stall washrooms, hygiene is often among the top concerns people raise. Will washrooms shared among genders be less clean? Are these types of multi-stall washrooms more likely to get messy? And is there any real evidence that cleanliness or sanitation standards actually decline?
In this episode, we unpack the fear that all-gender bathrooms are “going to be gross” and look at what actually shapes hygiene in shared spaces. We explore how gender stereotypes influence our assumptions, what research says about privacy, safety, and health concerns, and why bringing everyone into the same bathroom can sometimes raise standards instead of lowering them.
We also talk about workplace bathroom logistics, maintenance realities, and cultural differences around sanitation. What really makes a bathroom clean? And what changes when everyone shares the same space?
If you have ever wondered whether all-gender, multi-stall bathrooms are hygienic, or you are navigating conversations about shared bathroom design in your workplace, this episode offers a clear and grounded look at what is myth, what is fear, and what the evidence actually shows.
This conversation is for anyone thinking seriously about all-gender, multi-stall washrooms and hygiene in shared washrooms.
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Transcript
Public Washroom Discomfort
00:00:04
Speaker
We've all been in a scenario where we've walked into a washing stall and then sort of promptly backed out again. And I would go as far to say that it probably a universal experience. They have these trough urinals where there's no separation, everybody's peeking into the same thing, and you're like, what is going on here? It's almost like you're an animal.
00:00:32
Speaker
We're talking about something very glamorous today, public washrooms, or more specifically, the fear that all gender washrooms will be kind of gross.
00:00:45
Speaker
When organisations start talking about inclusive facilities, one of the top concerns that hear is not necessarily about safety, it's more about cleanliness. Somehow we've collectively landed on this idea that if different genders share space, then the hygiene standards will automatically plummet.
00:01:04
Speaker
So today we're talking about what the realities look like, why shared spaces often actually end up being cleaner and easier to maintain than people expect.
Professional Focus on Washrooms
00:01:14
Speaker
I had no idea when I joined Transfocus that I would spend so much time thinking about toilets. So I'm delighted to be talking about them again with Kai. How are you doing today?
00:01:25
Speaker
um doing fantastic. So excited to talk about washrooms. Like you, I never imagined that it would spend this much professional time. But you know what? I think this is a microcosm for much larger things. So I think it's good to show do a bit of a deep dive and figure it out. Yeah. you know, explore it, understand it from different vantage points. And so I feel like this could help kind of revolutionize things and improve things if we're we're willing to take a look, even if it's maybe, um yes, maybe less sexier topics, but they're very practical day-to-day things, right? Like cleanliness. Yeah. We'll save the sexy topics for next month and we'll stick to washrooms for now.
00:02:09
Speaker
First of all, then i wanted to set the scene before we get into cleanliness.
Gender Norms in Washrooms
00:02:14
Speaker
um yeah I just kind of want to go into a little bit of why washrooms seems to be such an emotionally charged topic when it comes to trans inclusion. Yeah. So washrooms, who knew that they're so um fraught with complexity?
00:02:34
Speaker
And a lot of that has to do with how we've set things up in our society, typically. And of course, it varies around the world, but I'll so i'll focus on North America. We have most of the washrooms are either designated for men or for women.
00:02:51
Speaker
And so there are some other options typically called, um you know, the accessible option, like a single unit washroom. But most multi-stall washrooms are either for men or for women.
00:03:04
Speaker
And there are certain expectations for how someone ought to or should look to access those or the the shape of their body or all kinds of other things.
00:03:15
Speaker
factors. And so when somebody enters these gender specific spaces, whether we are aware of it or not, there is what we typically call policing, like amongst facility users of those spaces. So you're either indicated as being okay and acceptable or There's, you know, stares, comments, questions, even those double takes for whether if people are wondering if you're in the right place for somebody using. This disproportionately happens to trans and non-binary folks, but not exclusively. It also happens to cisgender men and women as well. And so there's a lot going on. It seems simple on the surface. This is places of toilets, possibly urinals. you know There's a shared sink area, mirrors. So you can think think about the features, but it's actually the social stuff that makes it more complex. And also if there are not enough options, especially for somebody who is non-binary and for whom men's and women's spaces are not for them, um they can in a pinch go into them, but ideally not. There may not be enough options. So there's a few to things at play, whether within the facilities, men's and women's, there's a social aspect, but then there's also the availability issue for non-binary folks if there's only men's and women's spaces.
00:04:42
Speaker
So we've all been in a scenario where we've walked into a washroom stall and then sort of promptly backed out again. And I would go as far to say that is probably a universal experience. So where does this idea come from that if we have all gender washrooms, then the hygiene standards are going to drop off the face of
Cleanliness vs. Safety in Washrooms
00:05:03
Speaker
the earth?
00:05:03
Speaker
Yes, absolutely. I mean, i think there is a general fear of the unknown for all gender multi stall washrooms. They're a relatively new configuration, um maybe not new to, say, Europeans or other parts of the world where they've been in place for decades and people don't blink, ah don't bat an eye Right.
00:05:26
Speaker
But I would say North America, less so, because we've only had men's and women's and maybe occasionally a single unit washroom. But we're talking about all gender multi-stall. And I find people have a kind of a gut response, whether it's concerns about safety or um in this instance, we're talking about cleanliness. So it's just kind of mapping in all this fear because we don't know.
00:05:53
Speaker
And so, right. When we don't know, we um can make up different scenarios. And of course, that's not unique to washrooms. That's kind of like a human initial response until one has an experience.
00:06:08
Speaker
The cleanliness thing comes from probably a lot of experiences where different genders come together and have, um you know, I wouldn't say all men have a particular sense of cleanliness and all women have another or a different one. But I would say there's enough diversity across the genders that people, you know, have concerns that if you put everybody together, what will that create? Right. And perhaps haven't had the opportunity to think it through a little bit further, which we're doing here today. And so,
00:06:47
Speaker
What we've heard from the research that we've done, ah time and time again, women in particular, um think that men will have a lower standard.
00:06:59
Speaker
And as somebody who has occupied both washrooms, men's and women's, there is a difference. I won't say that it's like not based in reality at all. But there is quite a range. And so it's thinking
Pandemic's Influence on Cleanliness and Design
00:07:14
Speaker
through why sometimes things are lower or worse. And I would say both washrooms can be ah you know better or worse.
00:07:23
Speaker
And then thinking through, okay, when you bring everybody together, what might actually be different about that arrangement that can create a better outcome so that we're not kind of hanging on with the fear and can open up to a better possibility? Yeah.
00:07:39
Speaker
um where we can kind of raise the standards for everybody around cleanliness. Something that really surprised me that you told me when we were planning this episode is that cleanliness regularly ranks higher than many other topics when it comes to all gender washrooms. um I'm really interested in that. That surprised me as well. We did some extensive research, you know many thousands of respondents to surveys. And in the anonymity, people are kind of a little bit more forthcoming, I can imagine. than if we're talking about it. And maybe people are still honest when they're talking. But I found it interesting. we had people rank different concepts like safety, privacy, cleanliness, accessibility. There were like maybe six five or six things that we asked them to rank. Because unfortunately, when it comes to design, you can't do everything. You can't like tick all the boxes. So we kind of wanted people to wrestle a bit with trade-offs. And so if we were to prioritize in design, what would it be? And top among those was privacy, even more than safety, which was interesting. And then cleanliness, like that was so high. um And I think some of that also influenced by our experiences with the pandemic.
00:09:01
Speaker
um So I think that is almost interwoven with safety in some respect, right? Safety of physical health. So,
Cultural Assumptions on Gender and Cleanliness
00:09:10
Speaker
ah but yeah, that came out as a clear leader. And so I think that's where research is really important to understand what's happening on the ground and how people conceptualize <unk>re you know how they navigate washrooms. And so that we're not kind of making things up for people, we're actually meeting them where they're at and then designing from there. So that was really insightful. And I mean, there's many ways to navigate that, um that making sure cleanliness is central to design. But I mean, there's also cleaning schedules and and also getting facility users to think about themselves as
00:09:48
Speaker
involved and um necessary to be a part of cleanliness. So, yeah. That's interesting. I find that so fascinating. um you You mentioned in your earlier answer about how, well, you didn't say it like this, so I'm going to, I've I'm going to say something else now, but it's related. So it, to me, sounds like there's an awful lot of assumptions on the roles of different genders sort of baked into this idea, especially around who we expect to be responsible for cleaning, who is less responsible. um
00:10:23
Speaker
How much of these beliefs would you say are kind of more cultural assumptions as opposed to like baked into realism? Right.
00:10:33
Speaker
I mean, that's a big topic. Sorry, that's a bit of a charged question. There's so much baked into that, whether it's assumptions made or like one or handful of experiences and then extrapolated to all of that gender, right? And that's common among so many people, right? We have very personal, tangible experiences and then just think that happens everywhere.
00:10:59
Speaker
Now, it does vary in terms of ah cleanliness and who is like involved in making that possible and what kinds of things they do to modify their use of facilities to make that possible. So, you know, my experience is in Germany. I grew up in Germany and their cleanliness is, i mean, is so prioritized. Like it's,
00:11:26
Speaker
And it's considered like everybody's responsibility. And, you know, the saying cleanliness is close to godliness is like pretty apt, right? So, and so much so that ah men, of course, not all cisgender men in Germany do this, but a lot of them actually sit to pee.
00:11:48
Speaker
And so if we think about cleanliness facilities, Oftentimes, people who stand to pee can, if they're not doing it properly, contribute to you know a mess, right? Especially you know in and around the toilet or the urinal or whatnot. So that kind of small modification can contribute to ah greater cleanliness. And it's just a standard or predominantly standard practice, not just Germany. There's Japan and also Australia that we're aware of. where we have stats that say almost half of ah men in ah Japan and Australia ah sit to pee.
00:12:30
Speaker
And so this is, I think, really important to keep in mind that, you know, It is a culturally informed way of navigating and who's responsible for cleanliness and how that's socially enforced might be a strong word, but it's a collective endeavor, essentially. yeah And I imagine in North America, although we have less statistics about this, so this is a little bit more anecdotal. is that maybe some cisgender men may not be as um involved in cleanliness. And I would say also cisgender women too sometimes, right? Where it's like, oh, that's for the the building managers or the janitorial staff to to figure out. There's almost a little bit more of an entitlement um to have others deal with cleanliness or making cleanliness happen. Right. So that could be at play as well.
00:13:28
Speaker
I really wanted to ask you about some research you sent me and you I completely forgot about it until you mentioned the pandemic a second ago. um And it really challenges these sort of deep rooted ideas about gender. but It was something about how the pandemic um created situations where men were maybe taking on more of the sort of caring but roles and there was sort of cleanliness baked into that and I was wondering if you could go into that too. Yeah absolutely so I think we have probably a few different models in our heads about primarily cisgender men which often are considered the source of uncleanliness right ah you know and I would say you know, fake sometimes fair and then sometimes unfair. Right. ah
00:14:17
Speaker
But I think things are shifting among cisgender men where they're, especially ah including in North America, there's more cisgender men stepping into greater roles that now prioritize hygiene and cleanliness. And so there's less of an acceptance of lower standards. And so, yeah,
00:14:39
Speaker
When it comes to caregiving, if you have a kid and you're trying to change that child's you know um diaper or whatever in a men's facility that perhaps has a lower standard of hygiene, you know you're now going to you know talk about that either with staff or with fellow facility users, right? like You're gonna up that standard. um And it' so it kind of is a little bit self-reinforcing to ah increase that standard. Or if you're, as a cisgender single person using the facility, um you think you have that in mind, um that you, in some instances, are caregiving and would like a better standard, and so you're involved in that creating that standard.
00:15:23
Speaker
So it I think shifts things. And i would also say since the pandemic, we've seen in the research that um more and more men understand the importance of hygiene more broadly, and that they're responsible for that, whether it's within the washroom or even outside. So asking for more, you know, hand sanitizer and, you know, cleaning up after themselves. And so I think it's a bit of a shifting landscape as men step into caregiving and since the pandemic understand the importance. So I don't think we can kind of broad brush describe cisgender men in general, number one. And then number two is a moving, evolving thing. And we are seeing more and more cisgender men stepping up to the plate now. to maintain both the gender specific spaces as well as the all gender spaces.
Cleaning Standards in Gendered Washrooms
00:16:18
Speaker
I don't know if you have an answer to this exactly, but this this idea that, and i appreciate we're kind of going into this anyway, but is it actually true that that men's spaces are more gross than women's spaces? Is that actually true? Or is it all just perception? Right. I mean, I yeah i don't have any, we we looked for stats, mind you. We wanted to be able to speak with some amount of, you know bigger picture here. ah There's not a lot of research on this. So unfortunately, people's perception one way or another can persist. ah And, you know, there is a bit of per polarization. Like this comes up over and over and in our our research or consultation.
00:17:02
Speaker
not Having occupied both, I will anecdotally say that I would say they're differently unclean. And so so in men's spaces, if there's, you know, not enough urinal setup or um if, you know,
00:17:21
Speaker
whatever the setup is not proper, then there can be a lot more of ah like a smell of urine. right like It's just very distinct. right So that's not present for you know understandable reasons given the difference between sitting and standing to pee. between the two washrooms. But I would say that it's not like nothing, like it's totally crystal clear in the women's spaces that I've been in and where there is other types of things, especially around menstrual products. And so that's where, and also there are also, I think, don't quote me on this, but I think there's a little bit higher levels of IBS and Crohn's among, there might be a gender difference if I remember correctly. Yeah. So there's more, there's going, there's stuff going on there too, but it's just different. Right. And so i don't think there's, you know, it's like necessarily if you were to like microbial testing that you would find much of a difference, you'd probably just find different types of materials, but at similar levels.
00:18:28
Speaker
I think that urine probably stands out a bit more than other types of scents and I don't think it's just scent, right? But that's usually like the tip of the iceberg where you're like, ooh, if I can smell it, it's probably pretty intense, you know? so Right, everywhere. Yeah, sure.
00:18:43
Speaker
So I think both ah spaces can level up in general. Right, agreed. That said, also think it's really interesting having occupied both spaces. This is getting a little bit more into the aesthetic, but I find that women's spaces, whether it's the women themselves that are doing it or non-binary folks as well, or if this is the organization that's doing it, but they just look nicer, right? So there might be flowers or there's scent sprayer because they think that only women want that. You know, like there's maybe cultural assumptions where it's like, oh, it's we'll make things nicer for the women, but like totally ignore. There's maybe a chair and you're like, you know what I mean? Like it's just it's it feels nicer um because of these little things. thoughts, thoughtful things I think are are helpful, but then they're not usually translated into the men's space.
00:19:40
Speaker
And then maybe there's just not as much of an investment. But if those things were added, maybe there would be more effort. You know what I mean? So I think we can level up in society in general and and not under do things in the men's spaces. One thing I'll add into that, along with the aesthetic pieces, is there's like these subtle reinforcements of that concept of like, well, men don't need anything nice, essentially. And it's the urinals.
00:20:13
Speaker
So more often than not, especially in modern facilities or washrooms, there are independent stalls. But in certain ones, especially kind of 1980s and before, they have these trough, right?
00:20:26
Speaker
ah urinals right where there's no separation everybody's peeing into the same thing and you're like what is going on here it's like almost a way and I'm sure it's not intended but it's it's almost like you're an animal you know like that makes me think of you know the Romans in exactly yeah Are you serious?
00:20:48
Speaker
yeah Yeah. Yeah. In fact, just recently during an audit, I came across that and I was like, holy smokes, because part of our audits is looking at the setup. And of course, we are looking at it from a gender diversity lens, but we also want to take care of other folks along with, ah you know, trans and non-binary folks. And so that needs to be prioritized for
Design Critique of Men's Washrooms
00:21:12
Speaker
privacy. It's like, Yeah, but that's the kind of subtle clue that maybe we're not absorbing consciously, but, and not everybody experiences urinals the same way. Maybe they don't care. It's fine. But there are some people who are subconsciously taking in the the kind of more like,
00:21:30
Speaker
we're an afterthought or ah we don't deserve nice things or we're just kind of like we're we're okay like we're animals I don't know it's just so something about that just like really kind of shocked me and yeah pretty present still to this day yes Sounds very like dehumanizing. Yeah. That's a good way of putting it. Yeah.
00:21:54
Speaker
And again, it's more subconscious. Usually i can imagine rather than like people up in arms about it. Some people might be, and that would be fair, but more often than not, it's just like, and and it's not just that one thing. Like there's probably some, not probably, I know there are others where it's just like subtly reinforced in, in many different areas.
00:22:15
Speaker
So Yeah, I think we can do better. And in doing so, that cisgender men can also feel better and then do better.
00:22:27
Speaker
You know, like that's there's a bit of ah a trajectory there that could be a result.
Shared vs. Separate Washrooms
00:22:34
Speaker
If we sort of move away from perception a second and just look at it from an operation standpoint, from when it comes to facilities, is it simpler to maintain one shared space instead of separate ones? Or what's what's the what's going on there when it comes to actually keeping that space clean?
00:22:54
Speaker
Yeah. So we've talked about the facility users being a part of cleanliness and that is an important factor. And, but of course it's not the only one. There are going to be janitorial staff or maintenance staff involved in trying to maintain the cleanliness and, you know, there's particular schedules and, you know, depending on the traffic of, of the place and, and whatnot. Yeah.
00:23:19
Speaker
With that said, in gender specific spaces, those are generally a bit more difficult for staff of a variety of different genders to clean. So if you think about say a women's facility, if a ah male ah maintenance staff is needing to clean that, which is possible, but they're gonna block that off, right? And then that's that's a washroom that's offline for 15, 20, however long it takes to clean it, usually based on its size. And so that's a long time for something to be offline, in which case people have to go somewhere else, maybe another floor, maybe another place, maybe even to another business to to try to go to the washroom if they're of that gender um or they're wanting to access a facility. So it it gets a bit tricky. And it's also, I imagine, a bit awkward to be like a man going into a women's space and be like, hello, you know, I'm here. Yeah. So it's like a lot of effort. Maybe they get used to it. I'm not sure.
00:24:19
Speaker
But that said, all gender multi-stall washrooms are a totally different scenario, right? um They're differently designed, so they're easier to navigate for maintenance staff. They're usually a little bit more open concept. There's two entrances. People flow in, flow out. right So if you're coming in with a car as a maintenance person, you're not obstructing traffic, you don't have to block it off because any gender of maintenance staff can access that facility. um ah i mean, maybe there's logistics that I'm not aware of where maybe they do need to block it off for safety. But that said, it it it's not the the gender of the the person is not as much of a factor or is not a factor at all because any gender could go in there. And I think that's we often don't think of maintenance staff as being trans or non-binary themselves. Right. So that also makes it easier for trans and non-binary janitors to navigate these spaces too. So there's just so many ah benefits to the regular maintenance of this. Also, if you have one facility versus two, right, one big one versus two, ah that's quicker to clean, you know, just from a numbers perspective. So on and on and on. ah
00:25:42
Speaker
is All that to say is that there could be actually a higher standard, although we don't have any stats. So TB desert to be determined, right? i don't want to overstate it.
00:25:53
Speaker
But it it could be a scenario where it is actually cleaner because of these kind of logistical aspects. You mentioned a little bit earlier, um and I forgot to bring it up, so I'll do that now. you You mentioned about how when people know that a space is shared, they maybe treat it a bit more respectfully.
00:26:17
Speaker
Yeah, we we did find that both in the research that we've done, whether it's the surveys that we've done or focus groups, where we were trying to explore this this idea of like, okay, what happens when you bring genders together? And for a variety of different genders, they either maintain or improve their level of cleanliness because now they're in a space together with genders. And, you know, I mean, we could talk about people being attracted to one another but and as such, in general, not specific to that space, then they're wanting to impress or to, you know, show that they're, you know, contributing to cleanliness or to the shared space. And so there is a sense of you know wanting to be witnessed as a contributor rather than a detractor. And so people can level up or that's what they've described um that in an all gender multi-stall space, there is the desire to contribute more to making that space better. um And whether that's in the stall itself, you know cleaning up after oneself, uh or also the um shared sync space as well and it's not just individuals we also heard of others commenting on you know somebody leaving a mess and being willing to step in because it's a shared space and be like hey come on let's let's do better right and so there's this kind of collective monitoring uh impact as well to that type of space so it's really interesting kind of a bit of a surprise that a
00:28:00
Speaker
when we're together little bit on better behavior. And we can see that not just in washrooms, that also happens. There's that kind of impact elsewhere as well. That's so fascinating. I think that's so interesting.
00:28:16
Speaker
Why are humans so weird? all Right.
Workplace Washroom Conditions and Solutions
00:28:18
Speaker
I did want to add into the mix is ah kind of the current state of washrooms, especially we we have a bit of we have few stats here from a workplace survey. So this maybe is not as broadly applicable, but there was a survey in in the UK of 2000 office workers. This is by...
00:28:44
Speaker
sady I but hope I'm pronouncing that correctly. And they found that about a third of respondents were like, washrooms are a disaster in the workplace. And you'd think that in the workplace, they'd be better than, say, in a public setting, you know, airport or a washer mall a mall or washroom in the mall. um or shopping center. So it's kind of interesting that this is a really pressing issue, obviously not just for trans and non-binary folks, but more generally.
00:29:15
Speaker
And that because of the disastrous state, about one in five do not use the washrooms at work. Like they'd rather go somewhere else or, you know, wait till they get home to go the bathroom.
00:29:28
Speaker
What's going on in people's workplaces in the UK? I know. Like maybe you have some insight. ah Not in my experience. but Wow.
00:29:40
Speaker
Interesting. Yeah. So there's something going on in the workplace and it does deserve a particular attention because it does cascade into um particular decisions that ah co-workers make. And this is a broader issue, not just for trans and non-binary folks. So It's kind of this silent, usually silent thing that you know people kind of quietly suffer and don't say anything or they do, but they decide to not use the facilities. And so and just by making modifications that could help trans and non-binary folks, we could make the experience so much better and people focused on their work rather than like
00:30:25
Speaker
holding in, that's like an awful feeling and, and can have health consequences as well. So, yeah. If an organization is wanting to improve their spaces and sort of looking into creating more or gender washrooms, but also wants to consider this very real fear that people have that it's going to disrupt the the hygiene situation. um What do you think is something that they should be thinking about? Or what would you want to say to them as we close up? Yeah, this is such an important consideration. And oftentimes organizations that are trying to implement inclusive configurations or washroom options kind of get um a bit blindsided by this and they're surprised by this type of reaction. And so that's where, you know, we provide a lot of implementation support to anticipate this and other issues that come up so that ah organizations are ahead of this and can develop communication or provide some sort of um information sessions where we go through all of this and explain it. in you know careful detail, provide some stats where they're available so people have a bigger picture and some of these counterpoints that maybe are not on their radar to be like, oh yeah, we can use this as an opportunity to level up collectively. And so it it helps take off some of that edge of the uncertainty or the unknown that a lot of people feel with all gender multi-stall washrooms. And it's good to have cleanliness on the radar for employers as they're updating their facilities. And so that's why
00:32:14
Speaker
I think it's really important not only for us to do this episode, but also to think it through in a thoughtful, careful way so that everybody can feel like i feel confident and and excited even about these new types of configurations rather than pumping the brakes. Because if there's too much pumping of the brakes, sometimes that can derail the whole project and um this is an important inclusion option and so figuring out how to create the smoothest pathway is really important that's fair well thank you so much Kai and I'm always fascinated talk about toilets so delighted to to record yet another one about it absolutely yeah an important one to talk about in terms of cleanliness so glad we're able to unpack it I'm sure there's more to it that we could have talked about but yeah and yeah thank you so much
00:33:08
Speaker
Thank you. Bye.