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Creating an Inclusive Workplace People Want to Be In
26 Plays3 months ago
What does real, lasting inclusion actually look like inside an organization?
In this episode of Gender in Focus, Kai sits down with Keely Kidner, Equity & Inclusion Advisor at the District of Squamish, for a rich, grounded conversation about what it really takes to move beyond good intentions and into meaningful, systemic change at work. This is a practical, human guide for anyone responsible for building an inclusive workplace - especially managers and leaders who care, but aren’t always sure what to do next.
This isn’t a theoretical discussion about “best practices.” It’s a behind-the-scenes look at how a municipality has slowly and thoughtfully embedded trans and non-binary inclusion into everyday culture - through staff learning, inclusive leadership, Pride celebrations, inclusive language guidelines and even the surprisingly complex world of washrooms.
Keely shares how workplace inclusion becomes sustainable when it is woven into the fabric of an organization rather than treated as a one-off training. You’ll hear how culture shifts when leaders model care in public spaces, when people are given room to learn without fear, and when everyday moments - meetings, email signatures, introductions - quietly begin to change.
Together, Kai and Keely explore how to create psychological safety so people can try, stumble and grow, why “calling in” builds far more momentum than calling out, and how pronouns at work become easier when they are treated as a shared practice. They unpack what managers often get wrong about inclusion, why gender neutral bathrooms in the workplace are about privacy and design rather than just signage, and how joy and celebration can be powerful tools for cultural change.
This episode is especially valuable for managers navigating inclusion at work, HR and DEI leaders looking for real-world examples, and anyone responsible for managing diverse teams who feels unsure how to move from policy to practice.
It offers a human, practical roadmap for inclusive leadership that doesn’t rely on perfection, but on patience and consistency. If you’ve ever wondered how to make inclusion feel real rather than performative, this conversation shows what it can look like when it’s done with heart.
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Transcript
Introduction and Expert Insights
00:00:04
Speaker
Welcome to the Gender in Focus podcast. I'm Elle and each week I get to ask Kai Scott, the president of TransFocus Consulting, all the questions you have ever wanted to ask about trans and non-binary people in the workplace and in the wider world.
00:00:18
Speaker
Yeah, I'm sorry folks, but language changes all the time. It's constantly changing. And so right when you think you've got a handle on, you know, the way to talk about things, it's going to shift again because let's face it, humans are creative and wonderful and we're always finding new ways to, um you know, branch out into new ways of speaking and it's it's fascinating. But it does mean that we're in a state of constant learning.
Promoting Gender Diversity in Workplaces
00:00:46
Speaker
Today we're joined by Keely Kidner, the Equity and Inclusion Advisor at the District of Squamish. The district has been undertaking the deep and steady work of change on gender diversity over the last few years.
00:00:59
Speaker
And together we explore how inclusion shows up in culture through education that builds an understanding, empathy and confidence, and also in structures through strategy sessions that shape the spaces and systems people interact with every day.
00:01:15
Speaker
We'll talk about what it looks like to move from good intentions to tangible progress and the surprising lessons along the way. ah So welcome, Keely. How are you doing today? I'm great. It's so great to be chatting with you, Kai. um It's a rainy day, but um I love talking about this stuff and yeah.
00:01:34
Speaker
I'm all cozy here at my home office. Excellent. That's good. We're out of the rain. That's the important part. ah Yeah. Please share a little bit about yourself and what you do at the district and anything you want to share about yourself personally as well.
00:01:51
Speaker
Yeah. So my name's Keely. My pronouns are she, they. I have been living in Squamish for 10 years. Before that time i was born, I grew up on the unceded territory of Seats people in Penticton in the Okanagan, in the interior. And the work that I do at the district of Squamish is interesting because I i came out of academia originally. So, um, I completed my PhD over in Aotearoa, New Zealand in sociolinguistics. So I'm a, I'm a language guy. um I think language is very important and a social scientist like yourself. Um, and I kind of, uh, yeah, come into municipal, uh, government work and it's been really interesting because, um, I found a lot of really great applications for making a difference in my community in a really tangible way. So the work I do at the district of Squamish, I am the idea department, which stands for inclusion, diversity, equity, ah and accessibility.
00:02:57
Speaker
um And the way I phrase it to my kids is that I help people care about other
Intersectionality and Continuous Learning
00:03:02
Speaker
people. So trying to build the all of that into all the work that we do in a systemic way. And I should just let folks know that I i also am deaf. um Over the last, I think probably 15, 20 years, i've lost my hearing, which has been a really interesting journey as well. So I make copious use of all those fun accessibility things like captions and hearing loops and things like that. um So yeah, I approach everything with that kind of I guess, perspective as well. Right.
00:03:39
Speaker
Right. Yeah. That intersectional lens is so key because there are, of course, so many unique needs and they all deserve their attention, consideration, and inclusion. So it's always so important to have as many people around the table as possible. And folks who have those overlapping experiences can really shed light on some really powerful things. So, so it was really good to, and thank you for sharing that too, because there's, you know, oftentimes even multiple invisibilities and just shedding light on those is really key.
00:04:18
Speaker
Yeah. Well, I'm very excited to talk to you today because you yourself, along with the district, are doing such an important work. And it's really important to to share that you know with others who are perhaps on their own inclusion journey and so to to share that. the insights and the progress along the way and you know perhaps surprising discoveries. And so that's why I thought it'd be really important for folks to hear what's happening. And so the first question I have is just you know thinking about the cultural dimension of this type of work. you know It's all about what kinds of perceptions people have and understandings of trans and non-binary folks.
00:05:04
Speaker
in In certain sort of settings we've seen, not at the district, but there is this kind of one and done, especially when it comes to education or training of staff. And so I've observed with the district, you have a very different approach to that. And so I'm just curious to hear about, you know, how did that learning on gender diversity become a part of the broader cultural shift rather than just being like a one-time checkbox exercise?
00:05:30
Speaker
Yeah, it's um it's very tempting, isn't it, to say, OK, we've done that. Let's let's move on. But we know that when we're looking at systemic cultural change, you can't just do you know one thing and check the box. We hear a lot about check boxes and how it's not appropriate.
00:05:48
Speaker
i think I think for us, um the big thing was just generally, like this is not the only thing we did. like We didn't just do a training session. um even within the training sessions, like we always knew that there would be another step to
Celebration and Visibility in Inclusion
00:06:04
Speaker
them. Um, because like at trans focus, you've got it really set up in a great format where, you know, if you've got gender diversity introduction, where you get people kind of on the same page and then moving into intermediate. And so we always knew that we would, we would want to kind of continue the conversation and the education for folks.
00:06:25
Speaker
Um, and we had budget. So we made sure that we had budget for this. um And just really kind of bringing people along on on that journey. um And I think the training piece was just like one piece of all the other things that we did. So another thing that we really thought about was bringing joy to the work. I think that, you know, it's so important because we spend a lot of time talking about the challenges and the barriers, which are important.
00:06:56
Speaker
to investigate, but that's not all there is. You know, there's a lot of fun to be had in just supporting people to be themselves. um I think that the the queer community in general is just such a wonderful, joyful place. So we really try to embrace that. We've been raising the pride flag for almost a decade, I would say, Muni Hall.
00:07:22
Speaker
And in the last probably five or so years, we've tried to make it a really joyful sort of celebration. So I get rainbow cupcakes for everybody. We have music. um The community comes out, staff join in, and it's just a really fun time where everyone is just celebrating. And so it's important to have that happening too. um And then we also have been, again, for the last probably four years, we've been doing a District of Squamish Pride Week celebration for our staff. So the idea is that we want to recognize and celebrate um our staff who are part of the 2SLGBTQI plus community, whether they're out at work or not, like we know they're there. um And so it's basically just getting a whole bunch of fun swag and giving it out to all the different departments and people get to decorate. um people get like little bracelets and temporary tattoos and pins enamel pins are a big hit and just people can kind of choose their own adventure and decide you know how much they want to they want to be loud and proud or support we've got lots of like allyship pins which are a big hit too um and that has grown uh it started off a week and then it was a month And now what are we, we're recording right now in November and people still have decorations up from June.
Community Engagement in Inclusion
00:08:48
Speaker
So I'm just kind of like, you know what, we'll just let people um continue to show their support yeah and recognize that not everyone is is going to be that way, right? Not everyone's going to need to to show their support in that way. And that's okay. Which was another big learning for us too, that um including a diversity of voices and the planning of this, um I give a shout out to you know, my introverted ah colleagues who helped me plan this because they're thinking about, you know, Hey, what are some of the other ways that people can engage with this and just having these quiet contemplative spaces for people too, and resources for them. So just trying to kind of give people a whole variety of ways to learn about and show support for the 2SLGBK plus community. um
00:09:40
Speaker
We also had our inaugural pride parade this year in Squamish. Okay. Very exciting. Yeah. Um, so we, we got a float together. we did some really beautiful decorations and just, you know, the staff that have like come out and, um, joined in on this and, uh, been really celebratory has, has really created that shift as well. Um,
00:10:04
Speaker
one thing i will say too is we're very lucky that we have a lot of good leadership support so our mayor and council um yeah have attended these events our leadership they share their personal stories um so just yeah creating a sort of like all encompassing it's showing up everywhere not just in the training sessions but like the joyful celebratory events as well and i think that's all combined to create a cultural shift because We created this like sense of, hey, let's let's do this. It's fun and and exciting and people want to join in. but then we also bring them along with that education if they're like not quite sure how to do it or like what things mean, um you know, making sure that we're supporting people in that way so everyone can join in and have have part of the fun. So, yeah, it's kind of and a whole bag of things that we've been doing.
00:10:59
Speaker
Yeah, holy smokes. That's that's really impressive. And it it speaks to the kind of sustained effort ah to bring people along when and when they're ready and ah you know with the different options available for types of participation that that can connect with them, who they are, right, and how they like to receive information.
00:11:22
Speaker
And of so of course, leadership participation really sends that signal from the top. This is an important topic and, it you know, it connects to them personally. And um so that, you know, it's, it's, um it's this integrated thing rather than kind of a side or one time. And so it really,
00:11:43
Speaker
can kind of grow in an organic way. So I think that's
Addressing Discomfort and Challenges
00:11:47
Speaker
fantastic. And you can always win or not win people, but just bring people along when you have food involved as well, I find. So yeah the cupcakes were spot on. Good idea. And also something tangible like pins or, you know, kind of those visible signs this can be really important as well. Um, Again, like you said, nobody's forced to, they don't have to, but if they feel inspired to because they're kind of brought into this and kind of um gravitate towards this, then um they're they're invited to participate in that way. Oh, that's that's fantastic. I'm so glad to hear that. And joy, especially when perhaps it's a bit darker these days, particularly on trans and non-binary issues, I think that's really important not to lose sight of. Because while we can address those things, the the joy is always there and carries us too in these times, right?
00:12:48
Speaker
So that's fantastic. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I'm trying to also think too, of course, there's the joy and the celebration. But there are moments of discomfort as well when it comes to understanding issues that might be a bit more difficult for people to wrap their heads around. And so I'm just wanting to see if there's a, if you have a a moment when somebody's kind of assumption or how they perceived gender was perhaps challenged by, you know, what is happening at the district or maybe even a story from your own personal experience and kind of what helped them move forward or through that discomfort.
00:13:38
Speaker
Yeah, I think, I think The first thing is to recognize that there's a lot of change happening for folks and, um, you know, they're having to sort of think about what they were told or talk growing up and maybe have to unlearn some of that stuff. And, um, I know as a trans person who's gone through this process too, like it's, you know, I understand it. It's confusing and, um, it can be really unsettling. So I think, um,
00:14:07
Speaker
you know, just, just treating, that situation with patients, uh, is a big thing in terms of like specific instances, um, or, or topics that have been challenging. i know some folks have struggled to get their heads around, pronouns, especially singular, they, yeah so someone who's using they, them pronouns, um,
00:14:32
Speaker
And honestly, having a PhD in linguistics has helped me with that because I can just say, listen, it's ch grammatical. right right You have it from a linguist. If anyone tells you it's not, send them to me. right um So, you know, drawing on those on those sorts of things. But um I have, you know, shared with folks, you know, my own, my own sort of things that I've tricks and tips that I've learned, you know, if you have a pet,
00:15:00
Speaker
practice pretending that they use they them pronouns. And it's it's just a practice, right? Getting used to it. um We've had. um Yeah, I think I think honestly, the big thing is the fear of saying or doing the wrong thing and just assuring people that if that happens, like it's it's OK, we're all learning. So creating that psychological safety in the organization where people feel OK.
00:15:27
Speaker
to take a risk or try something new. And if they, you know, make a mistake or step in it, they're not going to get kicked out of the organization or kicked out of a team. They're going to be, you know, gently supported and in that learning and and trying to get better because we all start from somewhere. Right. Yeah. um I think another big challenge for people to wrap their heads around is spaces. So gendered spaces, washrooms and change rooms.
00:15:57
Speaker
Um, and you know, those structural changes can feel really, really scary for folks. So again, just, just being able to hear people, hear their concerns, understand, um, and use, we use a calling in approach. It's really deliberate what we do at the organization instead of calling out. So we're calling in and bringing people in to the fold and sort of inviting them in. And again, creating that psychological safety where they can, they can try new things. um
00:16:32
Speaker
Another way that we help bring folks along is we connect to community. So we have a wonderful pride Squamish community here and have been building really good relationships with them.
00:16:45
Speaker
um And, you know, bringing them in to speak to staff about their experiences of growing up or living in Squamish, what it's like, what it's been like, what's changed for them. And a lot of the changes for the better, because that's something we don't always talk about is how things have gotten better.
00:17:02
Speaker
um and And just recognizing that many of us are also part of the queer community, either personally or we have family members. A lot of our colleagues have family members who are part of the 2SLGBQA plus community. So recognizing that um and that there's space for them to to do that support work. I think um one one thing that we're trying to remember is that we're supporting people, not just to support everyone at work. We're we're supporting people to help them
00:17:32
Speaker
cope with all these changes happening in society around them, the movement forward, um especially with young people and their family members. so i'm I like to think that, you know, they're going to learn some of this stuff at work and then be able to, you know, better relate to their kids or their kids' friends or, you know, feel more confident in that.
00:17:53
Speaker
um So that's that's kind of how we approach some of that discomfort. and i think just the number one thing is is avoiding shaming people because as soon as you bring shame into it it just shuts everything down and so finding ways to do that with um you know learning about conflict resolution holding space for folks as needed um yeah and just being being there for them as they learn you're not going to get everybody on board and that's okay but um there's a lot of people that
00:18:25
Speaker
like I said, want to join in on the fun because I see we're having fun um and and being able to support them in that in a patient way. Yeah. hmm. That's so true that people can have a high degree of hesitation on this topic and it can hold back um or gingerly try something new, you know, and then if they don't have a positive learning experience, they can recoil um as in.
00:18:58
Speaker
is a kind of a human response to most new things, right? It's not unique to trans and non-binary folks or issues. And so in a way that you're, you all have each other's back in terms of helping each other move forward, I think is a really positive way to, to build people's competence slowly and gradually to where it's like, Oh, why was that such a big
Inclusive Language and Its Evolution
00:19:24
Speaker
thing? Right. And, But it's ah's a process for sure. And those moments of discomfort rather than being something ah kind of, yeah, awful, they can be actually a part of a learning process for folks. So that's that's really exciting to hear and you know that you've thought that through at the district level. But of course you're right, it ripples far outside of the district walls. and into the community society more generally, because we're all a part of families and friendship circles and volunteer at community events and whatnot. So um these types of things, while useful within the workplace, translate into everyday interactions as well. um
00:20:14
Speaker
And certainly this is an important thing. We do find that people get stuck at, you know, my mistakes will hurt trans people. And then kind of don't, um it's hard to get the courage to get beyond that. But it's ah it's a very important one, and one where there's usually a lot of space among trans and non-binary folks to to learn and to advance on on you know various everyday interactions.
00:20:44
Speaker
So... And speaking of everyday and ah actions, especially around allyship, I wondered if you have any other, you know, you certainly have, yeah especially around pronouns, we were just mentioning that that can be a challenge for folks, but what are some of those practical ways, in addition to what you've already mentioned, that you've noticed staff doing as they relate to one another, especially those kind of everyday water cooler discussions or things that happen in meetings and whatnot?
00:21:20
Speaker
Yeah, I think pronouns is a big, a big shift that has happened. um A lot of staff, um you know, include pronouns on their email exchange.
00:21:34
Speaker
And, and even in person, we've been noticing in meetings, so people will introduce themselves and and share their pronouns. And It's really exciting to see that happen. um And of course, you know, it's it's not obligatory. we don't We don't force anyone to do that. We just say if you want to, this is something you can do because we want to make it safe for people, including trans and non-binary folks who don't feel comfortable sharing their pronouns. But yeah, it's been really interesting because one thing that we've noticed as staff members is that
00:22:08
Speaker
Um, of course at a municipality, you have some fairly formal meetings happening in council chambers with, with mayor and council and during these meetings. And it's become a bit of a norm for staff and mayor and council to introduce themselves with pronouns. And it's almost become part of the protocol now, which is really interesting to see. Yeah. And just the impact of that from that, like high. leadership space trickling down to staff. You know, it was a couple of staff that started doing it and now it's become sort of the thing that that's really cool to see. I think that's been one of the most impactful, the biggest shifts in terms of interaction. But i know personally, I've had interactions with staff, you know, like I said, not everyone's going to be on board. Some folks, you know, have come to spoken, come to speak to me you know, they're not feeling comfortable with the rainbow flags. And, you know, we have conversation about that and, you know, that that's okay. And then in meetings, they'll they'll use they them pronouns for me. and And it's just this like really beautiful thing where, you know, I've talked to them about it and, you know, said, well, I want to be respectful. And and so, you know, even with people who you might not expect, um you know, if they're not on board with with the celebration side of it,
00:23:32
Speaker
There's still those moments of you know respect and the cultural norm that you're building in the in the organization where that is part of the respect. um and And that's been really exciting to see personally. Yeah.
00:23:46
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. That people can step up even if they're not wanting to participate in everything, right? That where it it really matters, those everyday interactions, those smaller moments that there is still that respect that's being shown. Because for some, there is an effort involved in it because it's perhaps a new way of speaking. And so, there's this added effort that has to be in the mix for some and then you know being able to respect i think that's really important and the way that leadership is modeling that for others allows people to step into and see that one it's possible uh you know that you know they start to understand the need for it or the value
00:24:31
Speaker
by creating space so that others feel more comfortable to do that, especially if people want to share. Of course, not, as you said, mentioned, forced by anybody, but that can really create that cultural shift that there's space for it. especially for trans and non-binary folks, it's hard to find those spaces. And you're like, do I say it now? Or do I say it you know five minutes from now or never? So it's always this difficult calculus, but if a bunch of other folks are doing it it's like, oh, okay, this is the moment, to cool. um And so that's really um profound.
00:25:07
Speaker
I also know that um you were given your linguistic background, which I think is amazing because that's so important um because a lot of this has to do with language.
00:25:19
Speaker
And i understand that you at the district have created an inclusive language guide. So I just thought you if you want to, you can speak to that and what you've seen and what kinds of reactions you've received from that set of guidelines.
00:25:37
Speaker
Yeah, I think, um, I think so we, we haven't, we haven't done a huge launch of them. It was a bit of ah a quiet launch to start, but, um, I think people have really appreciated having that as a resource. So I sometimes get questions about, you know, how to phrase something or what to use. Um, and then we can point people to that resource. And I think one of the important things to remember, and this is where we get sociolinguistically. is um that it's a living document because yeah, I'm sorry folks, but language changes all the time. It's constantly changing. And so right when you think you've got a handle on, you know, the way to talk about things, it's going to shift again because let's face it, humans are creative and wonderful. And we're always finding new ways to, um you know, branch out into new ways of speaking. And it's, it's fascinating, but it does mean,
00:26:32
Speaker
that we're in a state of constant learning in terms of, you know, what terminology to use and how to phrase things. And yeah, recognizing that some language gets pulled into negative spaces and then reframed into a negative thing. So um yeah, just if if you are thinking about creating any sort of language guidelines, they're super helpful, really useful. um And just making sure that we're connecting with folks who are part of the community have lived and living experience and making sure that we're keeping up to date with it too, because it is something that will need to be changed as, as things evolve. But yeah, it's everything from like how to write about something in an email to how to speak to counsel um spelling you know, all of the acronyms and, and words and phrases that can be really confusing and overwhelming for people because we live in a binary world where you're either this or that, but there's this whole rainbow of stuff in between that, you know, when you're in a binary, you have to keep differentiating all of these different rainbow pieces. So trying to help people keep up with that and just giving them the resource to do that. It's a really useful thing, creating inclusive language guidelines.
00:27:52
Speaker
Sweet. Oh, that's so exciting. And I'm glad you gave that background on language. Often we we probably perceive it as locked in and you know remaining the same for all time, but you're right, it is you know constantly evolving. and shifting and adding to, you know, we see that in the language separate from gender that, you know, the young folks are now, I mean, I feel like an old fogey, but yeah like what is this? And I have to like, look it up and, you know, figure it out. um And so i can appreciate how,
00:28:35
Speaker
people would want it to be a bit more locked in so that you can just remember one thing and then it's done. But I like your message about we're constantly learning and that's okay. There's a beauty to that. There's a necessity to that. So like you said, we're not um overlooking people, especially non-binary folks or people beyond the gender binary. in the language that we use. And that's just everywhere. It's very subtle sometimes, like even opposite's opposite sex or opposite gender just has a connotation of only two, right?
00:29:14
Speaker
So, yeah. Yeah. And I think just to jump in, if you if you accept that stance of things changing all the time and being in a state of constant learning, then of course we're going to make mistakes. i mean, know I'm going to make mistakes um because things change and you you don't always, you aren't always able to keep up. So if we can accept that that is happening and that we're going to make mistakes, it's, you know, it's not the end of the world to make a mistake. It's okay. We can repair and continue.
00:29:46
Speaker
Absolutely. That's so true. And I think sometimes people think, okay, I'm okay if language is changing, but I want the data download. I want to like be updated like a computer and everything is given to me right away. And I'm, you know, we're one hundred percent accurate and dialed, right? You're right. It doesn't work like that. It's more through connections that we share updates that we learn. I might not get all those updates and somebody else will help me and I might be able to help someone else if I know more about what's happening in a certain pocket. Right. And so it's kind of through kind of a relational approach that we, you know, get up to speed on things. And so I think I like the message of we can just kind of relax into not knowing everything, we'll get the update when we do. Maybe we can do a little extra work on our own too, right, to to stay up
Systemic Inclusion in Facilities
00:30:44
Speaker
to date. And search certainly guidelines like the one that you've produced with the district can help too, where it's like a source that gets updated, but that you know has some kind of overview of the things that we want to pay attention to and speak to in a respectful and inclusive way. So I think that's fantastic. and
00:31:06
Speaker
always a ah really important thing for for for for organizations to consider. Kind of we've with the language guide, we've started to dip our toe into some of the structural or systemic side of things, documents or resources, even procedures and systems, spaces like washrooms and change rooms. all of these have gender ah sometimes or very often baked into them. And I'm sure you're no stranger to that. um And so I'm thinking about inclusive spaces in particular. And I know, We were just talking kind of earlier in the episode about washrooms and how those can be tricky spaces where folks have a variety of different perspectives on how those should be organized and who should be included and who isn't. And so I would wonder if you, from your journey at the district or even beyond, kind of what you've seen and what kind of insights you have found along the way and anything you want to share from like a strategic standpoint.
00:32:20
Speaker
Yeah, thanks. Yeah, washrooms are are contested, tricky spaces, like you said. um Everyone needs to use them. Yeah. And, you know, it's a it's taboo. So we don't talk about them. But I'm, I'm known as the the washroom person. i kind of always have been a washroom person, right, all the way back to my PhD. I have ah a little story of part of my, my work, doing ethnography and part of my PhD, I ended up building some compostable toilets at a festival and so i became i became known as the toilet person and and here i am uh washrooms again my work phone has is just full of photos of toilets because i'm doing audits all the time um and you know i mean washrooms are
00:33:12
Speaker
And there's so much opportunity in washrooms too, though, if you look at it from a gender inclusive lens and accessibility lens, um which is something that we're trying to do is kind of combine those two lenses together and find out what's going to work, what's going to work for everyone in that like sort of universal design sense. um And yeah, i I kind of make a joke about washrooms because it's it's that subject that You know, you can make jokes about it and just kind of lighten it up a little bit.
00:33:44
Speaker
I love a good washroom tour. I love to take people and show them great washrooms. um But I think in terms of strategy, um because they're contested, because it's this sort of taboo subject, I think people, it's a big fear. And I think one of the fears of the change in those spaces is that people are going to lose privacy. And one thing that I learned in working with you, which really kind of shifted things for me and how I know has shifted things for other people is that a good washroom is designed to be a good washroom so that there's privacy for everyone. So reassuring people that we're not just going to go around to multi-stall gendered washrooms and switch out the signs. You are not going to have to go in there and like, see your boss doing their business in the Urona right beside you. Like that is not good for anybody. And that actually, when we're talking about changing washrooms, we're talking about actual structural changes. So like taking out walls, doing renovations, making sure that everyone has privacy and comfort, um, and feel safe. And, and there's a difference between feeling, you know, like uncomfortable or nervous and feeling unsafe. So also recognizing that as well, that a well-designed washroom is going to be really great, but it's going to take a bit of time for people to get used to that new norm of using that space. Um, I think that the other thing that's been a big, a big realization is that you don't have to change everything all at once as well. Um, that there are small shifts that can happen. So, you know, working with you again, we we had that sort of list of like easy changes, quick fixes, and then the more substantial things. um
00:35:36
Speaker
And so, yeah, you can do some really, you know, despite washrooms being designed well, um you can also have some really sort of quick shifts. So if you've got a universal washroom or single stall washroom that's gendered, You can move that over to a gender neutral space and that's pretty easy to do. Um, and again, if you don't do everything overnight, if you're doing a couple things, it's going to increase inclusivity and make things a little bit better for people. So just, you know, taking that step is a big, a big thing.
00:36:10
Speaker
Um, the other thing I'll say about washrooms is don't forget. um in spaces that families use or kids. So elementary schools, those kinds of places, you know, making sure you're thinking about gender neutral spaces there as well, because we've got lots of lots of young kids who are coming out as their authentic selves in elementary school, which is a really wonderful indication that we're we're creating safe spaces for our kids. Right. And so we need to now keep up with the the structural changes there. So if anyone's in an organization that supports families, you know, recreation centers, schools, those kinds of places. Yeah, don't forget about about gender neutral washrooms and accessible washrooms in those spaces as well.
00:37:00
Speaker
no Yeah. ah Such a good point. Because oftentimes those ah those additional spaces are missing, right? Because of the focus on men's and women's spaces. And, um you know, we've in society gotten used to that type of structure, but don't realize that that doesn't include everyone. Not everyone is.
00:37:26
Speaker
wants to go or needs to go into a men's or a women's facility, right? So having those additional options are are critical. And of course, not just for trans and non-binary folks, we know that the benefits extend far beyond that for people in mobility devices or for people with care aids or um families of different genders. you know, it's just, there's so many people that are served with that type of facility, whether it's single unit and has ample space or it's multi-stall. And so it's exciting to see that you all have kind of taken the steps to help to not rush forward too quickly, but and enough so people can have an experience and then realize, oh,
00:38:10
Speaker
Actually, it wasn't that big of a deal. I thought it might be really scary, but actually now that I and using them, I'm actually enjoying them. That's often the shift that we hear in people's experiences of all gender multi-stall spaces. that initial fear and then excitement and like, Oh, I can go with my friends and I don't have to, we don't have to split ways, you know?
00:38:33
Speaker
And, ah you know, my non-binary friend doesn't have to scramble, you know? So it's, it's really exciting to help people take those steps. And again, choice among options is really helpful.
00:38:49
Speaker
Um, but Yeah, it's cool. And I will say just ah as a parent, if you have parents of different genders, you can both go into the space and support your kids. Yeah. um You know, when you've got one in a change table and you know, like, it's just um it's it's yeah, there's benefits well beyond.
00:39:08
Speaker
Yeah, so it's helpful, but you're right that that privacy piece is really key. That is not a swap of signage, which some organizations initially want to go that direction because it seems quick and easy. um But if no other structural changes are made, then there's a lot more hesitation, nervousness, and even kind of using washrooms like they've always used them.
00:39:38
Speaker
as So it doesn't actually materially change much and doesn't create that inclusion that's so necessary. So that's great to hear that that there have been some structural changes to washrooms to help expand the options.
00:39:53
Speaker
One other ah area, just in terms of getting close to the end of of the episode, um there's one other aspect that um ah just wanted to get your insights in terms of there's, you know, helping and supporting trans and non-binary employees in the district.
Developing Supportive Toolkits
00:40:13
Speaker
And Helping with a set of like a toolkit that can help folks that want to be supportive, but may not necessarily know how to do that. And so, ah you know, just wanted to get your sense of um kind of the insights that you've gleaned from the process of developing that kind of toolkit and any tips and advice you have to folks, to organizations that are considering that.
00:40:40
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, we're in the process right now of developing it. And um I think for me, it was kind of a logical next step. You know, we've we've worked with our teams to understand gender diversity. and now we needed that sort of structural support piece. Because as you said, people want to do the right thing, but they just don't know what to do. And even trans and non-binary folks don't always know what to do, right? So... Having some sort of structure is really helpful. um
00:41:14
Speaker
And so, yeah, we're working to to bring that to our supervisors and managers. We've been doing a lot of work with our leadership team on, um you know, psychological safety and conflict resolution. And so this seems like a really great sort of next step in supporting all of that work as well. um And I think the important thing to note is that you know, when you're creating toolkits or guidelines or policies um that you need to understand it across the whole system. So um like we're all in the soup. If you've got a really great inclusive toolkit here supporting trans and non-binary folks, you don't want to have something that's like actually sending the wrong message over here. So one thing that we're we're working on now is creating a framework so that we can review all of our policies. Some of our policies are quite old and kind of cute because it was from a time when this town was much smaller and I think everyone knew everyone. um
00:42:19
Speaker
But I, yeah, just reviewing all of that and making sure like, are you using gender neutral language in your policies and, and you know, sort of creating that consistency across um and then also embedding and like,
00:42:33
Speaker
referencing across. So if you have like a staff orientation document, making sure that, or a manager's orientation, you know, new manager training, making sure you're bringing in all of those pieces so that people know where to find them.
00:42:47
Speaker
And I think also um making sure that it's accessible for as many people as possible. So some people love to read a document. They love to read a policy and we'll get right into it.
00:43:01
Speaker
That's great. Doesn't work for everybody. Some people want to do a training. Some people want to have a conversation with their manager about it. And so bringing that accessibility lens into this work as well, thinking about like, how can we make it um show up in different places for people? um And one thing that I find myself saying all the time is like, choose your own adventure. Let people choose their own adventure. Just give them my diversity of options. yeah If they want to use that bathroom, that's great. If they want to use that one, that's great. if they want to read the policy, if they want to have a conversation, just making it available to people in different ways so that, um you know, we all we all approach things differently because of different reasons. and And I think that's one way to kind of get that broad uptake as well.
00:43:48
Speaker
Oh, yeah, that's such a a good point that, you know, we all learn in different ways. We already know that, especially within educational contexts. Usually there's different learning styles. And so obviously that also shows up for adults too, right? And folks, you know, maybe at different parts of their inclusion journey on gender diversity. So we'll need different points of entry for that. um And so, yeah, it's great that that you're thinking about that and, you know, making that available to folks. And, you know, having a toolkit is helpful, but that's not the end of the story, you know, because, of course, it needs to come to life as well and be living, breathing throughout the organization. So it's a good starting point for for that. So that's great to hear that yeah you that's underway and will be something helpful for for folks, employees.
Personal Experiences in Inclusion
00:44:48
Speaker
One last question I had was just ah to get get a bit of a better understanding of what it's like to be a non-binary employee of not necessarily just the district. I'm sure you've worked at other places as well. So just getting a sense ah of what that's what that's like, and you know kind of the day-to-day and anything that you've encountered that is either you know challenging or maybe on the other side has brought you a lot of joy and been really wonderful. So just curious what that's like for you.
00:45:24
Speaker
Yeah, um I'm one of those people that understood my identity later in life. So I'm an elder millennial. And when I grew up, non-binary wasn't a thing. Trans was barely, I even barely knew what what trans um who trans people were, i i felt ah it was a very sheltered existence a little bit.
00:45:48
Speaker
um So this has been a bit new for me. So this experience of creating a safe space has become very personal as well. um I also have a child who is gender diverse. And so, you know, adding all of those pieces in, um i think it's been overall, it's been a really fantastic experience because,
00:46:10
Speaker
yeah there There may have been challenges, um but I have such a wonderful team of coworkers that I feel so safe with because we've been able to be vulnerable with each other because we all come from different different spaces and different identities. And we've been building those relationships over a long time and building those stories with each other. um to the point where when it was my my time to come out and I knew it was time and I came out to my team, I had nothing but support. It was just really, it was really, really wonderful. um
00:46:46
Speaker
and So I kind of went through the process myself and then thought, you know, would be really helpful to have a a toolkit for people to do this as well. So yeah, I have to say it's been really respectful and wonderful. Also being deaf, it's helpful because if anyone says anything, I usually don't hear it.
00:47:06
Speaker
Oh, no. I mean, yay. so i don't I don't hear the underhand comments or like the whispers. So that's that's really great. But um but yeah, i've had I've had a really wonderful experience. um And I know things are changing.
00:47:23
Speaker
You know, things are moving forward, despite despite all the stuff in the background. um I know that in a lot of our spaces, things are moving forward. And so I i feel actually really positive and optimistic that um you know, the arc the arc of of life bends towards justice and we're we have the opportunity to make a real difference in people's lives and support our community in a really tangible way, working in local government and other organizations. So if you're doing this work in your organization, like it's a really wonderful thing to be able to make things a little bit easier for people and a little bit nicer. I think that's just a, that's what keeps me going as well.
00:48:04
Speaker
Oh, that's so wonderful. I'm so glad to hear that. And it really does make a huge difference when people, whether they are prepared or not, you know, are or you are so open when somebody comes forward like yourself at work. and shares more about themselves. And, you know, that can really help people grow to be like closer to one another in ways that show up in beautiful, wonderful ways at work. So I'm glad that happened. And of course, you also, you know, ah
00:48:37
Speaker
by it It could be kind of team specific. So just making sure that that can be expanded past and and having something more structured in place to help folks, especially if this is maybe a new topic for them. They don't know how to
Conclusion and Appreciation
00:48:52
Speaker
show up. Right. So that's great. And yeah, I.
00:48:58
Speaker
Yeah, I'm always very encouraged to hear those stories because it's really important that we support one another, whether it's on gender diversity or more broadly. So that's fantastic to hear.
00:49:10
Speaker
Well, thank you so much for for coming on this episode and and sharing a bit about you know the the journey that you've gone and led at the district of Squamish and then also sharing a bit of your own personal story as well. It's always really fantastic that and we can hear a little bit more from like what' what it's like in lived experience. So I really appreciate it and i hope you have a good rest of your day and hopefully stay dry and and we'll talk later. So thank you so much.
00:49:42
Speaker
Thank you so much, Kai. It was an honor to join in and thanks for having me join. i Yeah. Love the podcast. You've you've got a deaf a deaf fan over here. Yay. Awesome. love it. um Yeah. Thank you so much. I hope you enjoy the rest of the day too. And maybe we'll get some a break in the rain for a little walk soon.
00:50:04
Speaker
Absolutely. Well, bye for now. Thank you. Bye.