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Are Your Systems Outing Trans People?
28 Plays2 months ago
Are Your Systems Outing Trans People?
Most organizations don’t intend to out trans or non-binary people - but everyday information systems often do, accidentally and repeatedly.
In this episode of Gender in Focus, we explore how routine systems and processes can disclose someone’s gender history without consent, resulting in accidental outing, often in public or high-stress settings like waiting rooms, customer service desks, or over the phone.
We break down how information systems - from name fields and titles to gender data and verification processes - can create moments of misgendering, misnaming (often referred to as deadnaming), and unwanted disclosure, even when staff are doing their best and following the system exactly as designed.
This episode helps listeners understand how harm can happen without intent, and what actually reduces it.
Together, Kai and El discuss:
• How systems that rely on legal names or limited data fields can inadvertently out trans and non-binary people
• Why public name call-outs and frontline processes are especially risky
• The emotional, social, and safety impacts of repeated misgendering and misnaming
• Why these moments aren’t isolated mistakes, but predictable downstream effects of system design
• How frontline staff are often put in difficult positions by systems that don’t give them better options
• Practical ways organizations and staff can reduce harm - even when systems can’t be changed immediately
The conversation also unpacks a common tension: when legal, medical, or verification requirements are necessary - and how to handle that information without making it the default for everyday interactions.
Rather than placing the burden on trans people to correct, explain, or endure these moments, this episode asks a different question:
What responsibility do systems have - and what happens when they’re designed without trans and non-binary people in mind?
This episode is especially relevant for anyone working with information systems, customer or client-facing processes, or frontline services - and for anyone who wants to understand how harm can happen without intent, and how it can be prevented.
To download our FREE Navigating System Limitations resource - click here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1en8BUtpQ6OTM9dAks9EUYBxat0YebGpK/view?usp=sharing
Find out more about our work on our website: https://www.transfocus.ca/
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Transcript
Systems and Their Broad Impacts
00:00:05
Speaker
It sort of sounds like they're working exactly as intended. They're working exactly as designed, but those designs just haven't taken into account that there is perhaps more going on for but a lot of people. I think people only see the impact on trans and non-binary folks, which is an important impact to observe and and record and and do something about. But then they don't realize that their frontline staff are also really stressed. Right.
00:00:34
Speaker
they feel almost like they've been trapped right by so this this imperfect setup.
00:00:43
Speaker
Systems are something that most of us don't really think about very often. They're just sort of there in the background in the forms that we fill out, the names that appear on screens, or information that employees rely on to do their jobs efficiently. But When those systems aren't designed with trans and non-binary people in mind, they can end up inadvertently outing them. And that's what we're talking about today. The ways that systems can put trans and non-binary people in uncomfortable or sometimes even unsafe situations by publicly outing them as trans, often without anyone intending to, and certainly not with the permission of trans people themselves. Sometimes something as simple as a name field in a form can have a much bigger downstream effect than most people expect. And it isn't just trans people who are affected. They also put frontline staff in really difficult positions while trying to do the right thing, trying to do their job with systems that don't quite work.
Introduction and Casual Beginnings
00:01:40
Speaker
I'm super lucky, as always, to be joined by my colleague, Kai. How are you doing today? I'm doing great. How about yourself? I'm doing great. Thanks. um I'm freezing cold because I didn't put my heating on until we set. Like, I forgot to turn it on. So I'm now in a freezing cold house.
00:01:56
Speaker
so So you might be moving a little extra to keep warm. I'm going to be wriggling a lot in this episode. Yes. Fair enough. We understand. Mm hmm. I'm glad. So when we talk about um systems accidentally outing people, I imagine that a lot of people would never have considered that when they come to work for chance ah come to work with Transfocus, sorry, mainly because systems are just sort of implemented into our life. It doesn't kind of occur to some people that it doesn't work for everybody, I guess.
00:02:29
Speaker
And so when we're talking about systems that accidentally out people, what do we actually mean by that? And I mean, I'm going to grill you for details later on, but just in general, why do those moments happen and what does that actually look like?
Privacy and Misidentification Concerns
00:02:44
Speaker
yeah to kind of set the stage for what this is all about. so yeah, we have information systems that store all kinds of information, whether on the employee side with human resources systems or on the customer side, if there's like a profile that people create, or that the company or organization creates. It doesn't matter, but essentially storing critical information, name, address, date of birth. um In some systems, they record sex or gender and or gender.
00:03:17
Speaker
And so it's all this these pieces of information. Oh, another one is titles. So Mr., Ms., Mrs., mx and so forth. And those are important details to understand about an employee or a customer or both.
00:03:34
Speaker
And they often have insufficient fields, especially for the dynamic and or varied experiences of trans and non-binary folks. And so, right.
00:03:46
Speaker
depending if there's enough fields or the right protocols around the fields. um Unfortunately, especially when they say, for example, a legal first name, oftentimes that's the focus of a lot of systems.
00:04:00
Speaker
Unfortunately, then that's what staff use when they interact with an employee or a customer. And then as a result, either misgender them or um misname them, which is kind of critical for interacting with a person. Right. Their name. Like that's number one. um And so that can be often the first touch point that then sets up like just a cascade of negative interactions going forward, or at least hesitation or nervousness from the trans and non-binary person.
00:04:34
Speaker
It sort of sounds like they're working exactly as intended. They're working exactly as designed, but those designs just haven't taken into account that there is perhaps more going on for for a lot of people. And so ah you described kind of the setup, but then in terms of trans and non-binary people, what does that look like in terms of the the downstream effect of those systems being set up in that way? Right.
00:05:00
Speaker
Yeah, so there's the kind of collection of this information and then there's the uses of the information. That's a kind of good way to think about it because oftentimes organizations are focused on the collection, but then don't give as much thought to how staff in particular are going to use that information and what they're relying on to interact with folks. And it's also, there's two two other aspects of like interacting one-on-one with that individual, like the staff person with the trans and non-binary person. And then there's the like staff announcing in a busy room or maybe not even busy, but like a kind of more of a public setting of there are more people who might be an earshot of that conversation or announcement. Yeah.
00:05:49
Speaker
So I'll give a few examples just to make it clear. And so I'm talking about the kind of use and, like you said, the downstream effects. So a staff sees in the information system, okay, this person goes by Tom as what we typically attribute to be a man's name. And he and then either one-on-one with that person will use that name and it's not the correct one for that person. Perhaps they go by Isabella.
00:06:20
Speaker
And so that will be quite hurtful or harmful to that person. Of course, it varies by individual what level of harm that is for them, but it is a kind of um a disruptive moment to that interaction.
00:06:38
Speaker
It gets even more challenging when certain organizations will use first names to announce, to kind of call that person into a service, you know, especially in a waiting room.
00:06:51
Speaker
And so that's where... the staff is is just going about their regular work. It's no fault of their own. But then they'll announce that name. um They'll say, Thomas or Tom, please come to the desk, right? And that will put that trans individual who goes by Isabella in a very difficult spot.
00:07:11
Speaker
So are they going to come up and respond to that name?
Emotional and Physical Impacts
00:07:14
Speaker
um Maybe they look different than one would expect for a name such as Tom. And so that essentially outs them to the people in the waiting room, or at the very least creates kind of a like, huh, curiosity situation. Is there an error here? What's going on? It it kind of stands out to people. um And so that puts that person in a tough spot.
00:07:38
Speaker
And so we don't think about systems the way they're set up, having these cascading impacts, whether one-on-one with that person or in a group setting, like I've described in the waiting room.
00:07:51
Speaker
um If it's okay with you, i kind of want to dive a little bit deeper into that because I i can imagine or I can sort of, okay, I i work in the sort of social media area of for Trans Focus and i can already feel the comments of trans. well, it's not that big of a deal. Like it's a, you know, it's somebody's calling out the wrong name and yeah, it's a bit uncomfortable, but like, it's not that big of a deal, but actually being misgendered and being, um, misnamed, especially if it's, ah you know, a contrast in terms of expectation, expectations versus, um, what your actual gender is and and how you look.
00:08:28
Speaker
It's so much deeper than just a bit uncomfortable for a lot of people. For some people, maybe it not so much, but it's, it can be very, um, serious in terms of not just, but well in two areas first how people feel about themselves and also the danger that it could potentially put them in and so I was wondering if you wouldn't mind going into that a little bit more.
00:08:50
Speaker
Yeah, ah it's it's really important to note the the severity of this type of thing. And it's not just one instance of it. The thing is that this is essentially on repeat in many different organizations, because this is a system flaw that is built into a lot of systems, kind of a not geographic specific or sector specific. It's just everywhere, essentially.
00:09:15
Speaker
And so this isn't just a one time occurrence. This is over and over and over. And for some, it's jarring to hear one's past name. Typically, for many trans and non-binary folks, there is a bit of bit or a lot of pain associated with one's past name.
00:09:33
Speaker
um This is an essentially one of many markers of misunderstanding about somebody's gender based on how they were born. They were given a particular name, and that was not a correct name based on their gender.
00:09:46
Speaker
um Of course, that is an innocent mistake that people made back then um and can be corrected. But if that corrected name is not kind of taken up by the organization, then that can put people in ah in a particular situation.
00:10:03
Speaker
a precarious place, especially when it comes to other people, because of course, in our society, being trans or non-binary is still very much stigmatized. So it could actually put somebody in harm's way, like physical, emotional, you know, you name the level, um because trans is a bit of a flashpoint right now.
00:10:24
Speaker
And so people have no qualms in some instances to be in trans and non-binary people's face. um and you know share their opinions or you know harm them in some way.
00:10:37
Speaker
And so this is not a ah small matter. like There are physical consequences. And also, if it even if it doesn't rise to that, which albeit is rare, um it can also just be have an emotional impact for folks who might get extra stares or comments or whispers. Sometimes they're whispers, which anybody thinks about their experience of something, even not related to gender, you we all feel that, like that social exclusion. And it's awful.
00:11:11
Speaker
Nobody likes that. And so just thinking about it from um that perspective, hopefully is helpful to try to mitigate for that in some way. And I would imagine that perhaps there's a lot of anticipation, like waiting for something to go wrong. And then when it does, it's like, oh, this extra.
00:11:34
Speaker
so you're already fearful. And then the interaction goes exactly the way that you're fearing. It must be a pretty horrible experience. And it would probably make people avoid, if possible, they would avoid going to those places where that might happen. Yeah.
00:11:50
Speaker
Oh, absolutely. It's like, how bad is it? um Am I enough pain? Do I have enough troubles that I need to go and do this? But if it doesn't kind of clear a threshold, people will definitely avoid. And we have a lot of stats to support that.
00:12:08
Speaker
um The avoidance is a huge strategy, understandable strategy, given some of the consequences. And people are doing this very complex calculus real time in their heads. And yeah, it's really sad in that regard.
Challenges for Trans Individuals and Staff
00:12:23
Speaker
People don't know because avoidance, you can't kind of register as an organization. It's less visible, ah but that definitely is at play. Mm-hmm.
00:12:36
Speaker
So when we're thinking about those systems, um or not thinking about them actually, when we're just sort of carrying on as sort of the status quo, just like plodding along with the system that we already have, um I would imagine that there is a lot of invisible labor that goes into to this sort of thing for trans people because ah well, as you know yourself, having set up Trans Focus, that you're probably best placed to see the problems. And so what does that look like when we sort of just go, well, someone will say something if it's an issue? And like, ah I guess what I'm trying to ask is what can people do who are not trans to try and like alleviate that if they're not maybe in control of the system themselves, but they notice an issue that,
00:13:29
Speaker
um comes up for for them, especially frontline staff who are heard doing dealing with this more often. Oh yeah. I mean, frontline staff are doing heroic efforts in many organizations where they're handling very complex matters with usually not a lot of guidance and from the organization and they're seeing firsthand the impacts and and none that they intentionally try to create. It's just, it happens, right? all Right, yeah.
00:13:57
Speaker
And usually fast paced too, like things need to happen immediately and quickly. depends on the organization or the sector. So yeah, my heart really goes out to a frontline workers and often caught in between, you know, this kind of not addressing or not setting things up properly. And then the, the customers or the employees,
00:14:20
Speaker
And so when somebody observes something, I understand why staff want to help out, but also don't feel maybe it's their place or maybe they don't have all the information to be able to say something.
00:14:33
Speaker
And in those instances, I would very much encourage folks to say things. um And it's okay to speak from your position of like, I felt awful when I didn't use the correct name because we don't have a second field for me to know that name. And because I think people only see the impact on trans and non-binary folks, which is an important impact to observe and and record and and do something about, but then they don't realize that their frontline staff are also really stressed. Right.
00:15:08
Speaker
they feel almost like they've been trapped, right? By so this this imperfect setup. And again, not organizations are not doing this intentionally, but I think just being able to say, hey, this happened, i didn't feel great about it. I wasn't sure what to do. the the ah Expressing the uncertainty, I think, is helpful. And i will say that a lot of the times when we get called in is by staff saying something.
00:15:36
Speaker
Right. because they're like, hey, we need to deal with this. This is the fourth time in a month that this has happened or you know whatever information they can give to say there's a frequency to it and that without resolving it, it will continue to be an issue. And you know not to say that everything lens ends up in the legal landscape, but there certainly is, um you know that is a factor in the decision making. particularly here in Canada.
00:16:05
Speaker
um These are human rights issues and so um don't need to be hostile or, you know, mean about it with leaders, but just like, hey, this is happening. And especially if you have a bit of information about frequency, what happens in those instances more broadly and You don't have to have ideas for how to solve it.
00:16:28
Speaker
You can say, this is how I addressed it in the interim. I wrote that person's name in the comment section or whatever, right? That can give people an idea of like, okay, we can deal with the interim. Maybe we need a long-term solution.
00:16:43
Speaker
And then they the leadership can take next steps from there. Mm-hmm.
System Improvements and Inclusivity
00:16:51
Speaker
I kind of want, i well, I have a question that seems like an obvious question to ask, but I'm hesitant to ask it because it's so so layered. This is the kind of work that you actually do with organizations. So I wanted to ask about what can be done then.
00:17:07
Speaker
But I realized that that's so broad and it depends on what the issues are. So I was wondering if you could at least give me some some information on that. Right, the broad strokes of just the options available. You know, I mentioned there's kind of three main categories when it comes to systems. There's the first name, there's the titles if they exist, Mr. Ms. MX and so forth. And then there's gender data collection if that exists. So more often than not, most systems are dealing with the first name issue and then a few others have these added pieces of the titles and the gender data collection. It gets even a little bit more complex when you're in a healthcare system with sex and gender, right?
00:17:52
Speaker
That's where things get real tricky. So I won't delve into that, but we ah we do have experience handling that nuance. So it needs to be done very carefully. Yeah.
00:18:03
Speaker
But, you know, and a lot of, especially in some provinces requiring pay equity um reporting, so gender data collection is a part of that. So it is important and little bit more widespread to be collecting gender along with, you know, equity objectives and whatnot.
00:18:22
Speaker
All of that to say, you know, when it comes to first name, we do need more than just one field. You know, I understand the importance of legal first name, especially if you're paying an employee or there's a legal matter with customers.
00:18:38
Speaker
totally get it. Most trans people also understand that. But if it's not accompanied with a another field for her chosen first name, that can be very limiting and again, make things difficult for frontline staff. And I think there's broader benefit to adding a second field because many non-trans people or cisgender people have nicknames. And you know the degree that you can speak to that, um that's really important as well.
00:19:11
Speaker
So yeah, there's that. And then there's also titles, Mr. Miz, MX, and so forth. You can ask yourself as an organization, do we need these? and That's a very good first question to ask.
00:19:26
Speaker
Some organizations are very formal and so understandable that there's a need for that, but then making sure you have enough options available. And then gender data, especially if it's a required, particularly if it's legislatively required, it's just making sure that you have enough options there. But if it isn't required legislatively, then also asking similar to titles, do we really need to collect this? What are we using it for?
Personal Experiences and Systemic Challenges
00:19:54
Speaker
Yeah. Some of the questions you can ask to start to explore the different options.
00:19:59
Speaker
Have you got experience having, I'm asking for gossip now, of course. Have you experienced this yourself when it comes to systems? Too many times to count.
00:20:11
Speaker
Yeah, a lot. I can imagine. Yeah. And of course i shared by many other trends and non-binary folks, like this is not unique to me. um and yeah, I'm happy to share a bit from my experience. Uh,
00:20:26
Speaker
the two big ear so i'll talk about when i first came out which was probably the most frequency and then i'll talk about the things that i can tend to continue to experience even today um and when i first came out you know the way i present now is different right i looked more feminine in terms of my expression and also the shape of my body and whatnot. And so people read me in a particular way if they were interacting with me, like one-on-one, face-to-face.
00:21:01
Speaker
And so, yeah, there was a lot of misgendering. And also I had hadn't updated my documents officially because it took a year and a lot of money. And so na it's just not really possible to do it really quickly. um Right.
00:21:17
Speaker
And so, yeah, in certain healthcare settings in particular, I would be in a waiting room and then they would call out my previous name. And it was really jarring, even though i was, you know, kind of more recently shifting away from that name.
00:21:34
Speaker
It still like was a gut punch every time. ah Because one, i was worried about what other people heard or saw or you know, how they're going to react, just very hypervigilant and for understandable reasons, because, you know, of course, um trans people are not always treated very well.
00:21:58
Speaker
And so there's like that kind of like, what do I do? Some part of me and some people do do this, they walk out, right? um And because they don't want to interact with that name, it's not the proper one. And so they don't respond to it.
00:22:13
Speaker
And they will forego care. For me, I did usually go up and then just be like, hey, is there any way to document this? you know, I'm still changing my documents. So I try to like work with them and let them know. but And that's a huge amount of advocacy when you're trying to take care of taking blood or getting hormones or, you know, whatever the thing, you know, maybe i hurt my arm, you know, like it's just, there's already things to address. And then you're having to then on top of that deal with the name is a lot. And so it was very discouraging, very disheartening. And depending on where I was at mentally that day, it could stay with me for the rest of the day, for the rest of the week, you know? So it has more than just the impact of that moment. It then you kind of replay in your head and be like,
00:23:06
Speaker
Was that person sitting next to me? you know what did they think? you know Or um did I handle that well enough? Did they actually listen? Will it happen next time? Just like on and on and on. And so it's just, it's really hard.
00:23:19
Speaker
So that's back when I was coming out. as trans. And what happens these days is not so much face-to-face interactions. Most people make the correct assumptions about, um you know, ah I've changed my name legally, so it's in the system.
00:23:37
Speaker
Usually the past name is not visible anymore after however many years. And also i look how my people expect my for my gender, right, as a man.
00:23:52
Speaker
But what will happen now is that over the phone, for whatever reason, ah Probably because people on the phone do have access to my past name and perhaps the pitch of my voice is a little bit higher than they would expect for a man. And so they do continue to misgender me on the phone. Uh, they'll call me Miss Scott. They'll call me ma'am, call me all this stuff. Right. Um, they don't typically use my past name, although that has come up a few times too. So it's just like, oh, and that's, yeah that's super disorienting. Cause I'm like, who are you talking about?
00:24:31
Speaker
like, oh, they're talking about me. Okay. It's not used to it. Right. Having right be properly gendered everywhere except for here is like very disorienting.
00:24:42
Speaker
Yeah. can imagine. I'm so sorry that that happens. oh my goodness. That feels. i can imagine super jarring um especially after such a long time and i know it's uncomfortable at the beginning but i think maybe there's a level of like okay haven't it's like terrible but i haven't done and z yet so um but yeah now further along and that's just like shows how long things stay in systems and like how yeah how hard it is to actually shift that after such a long time um and i think maybe one of the things that
00:25:18
Speaker
people don't necessarily realize is how long it does take to update your records in the first place like on a legal basis so having it's not just a simple case well yeah just change your name and then the system will be updated actually takes a long time and it's a lot of money and it's a lot of effort to get that all changed
Healthcare System Limitations
00:25:35
Speaker
Absolutely. And the data shows us that because of these realities, these bureaucratic, what I call nightmares, um you know you you need like a part-time job freaking change things.
00:25:48
Speaker
And so we see from the data that the majority of trans and non-binary folks have not changed their documentation. Not for a lack of desire or will, just barriers, huge barriers to that. And in some jurisdictions, particularly down the United States and other countries as well, you have to go to court to change your name. Right.
00:26:12
Speaker
You have to publicly put it in the newspaper you know, let people know, air quotes. And it's just like, what? You're going to put people in that kind of harm's way? It's bananas. So there's immigration considerations for a lot of folks, especially if they're refugees. So it's just like, or there's a marital status thing at play in countries where it's not accepted. So just like on and on and on and on. It's just,
00:26:40
Speaker
super difficult to change one's name. First name in particular. said Interestingly, last name, no problem. christ that is One of the things that I kind of wanted to ask um on our YouTube account, and we've got a video of you reacting to a really great example of this kind of system systems issue um from the the show, The Pit. And I was gonna ask you to briefly go into that and I can link the the full video in the show notes. But before I do, one of the things I also wanted to ask within that is that in the comments of the original video of that clip, um somebody had written in the comments, um
00:27:23
Speaker
oh, but in a healthcare care setting, you, you know, you need this information. You you need to know that this person, you know, is actually this sex. And that's something that I think maybe a lot of people could get stuck is that there is, there are times where you do actually need to know somebody's sex at birth. And in most cases though, you don't. And so I was wondering if you could talk about that specifically before going into.
00:27:54
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Before going into the reaction video. Yeah. I'll speak briefly, although there's a lot that could be said. I also appreciate that. Apologies. ah Yes, of course. There's like, what are we talking about? Sex at birth, legal sex, you know, what one's characteristics are at present. There's so many different ways that we talk about anatomy. um And, yeah you know, what is useful in a particular instance, obviously in healthcare, care I understand and appreciate why we're kind of focused on sex or the medical community, ah healthcare providers and whatnot.
00:28:36
Speaker
really are anchored into sex because it does cascade to you know, blood tests and different types of diseases and health factors and, you know, testing and, you know, the list is long, right? So,
00:28:51
Speaker
I appreciate how it's been set up. And for some trans and non-binary folks, they don't have issue with providing their sex at birth for that kind of sex-specific health care, especially if they have not um undertaken any gender-affirming care. Or even if they have, they sometimes are okay with it. Now, that said, I do find that sex is so broad that, you know, just two categories, which doesn't fit everybody because there are intersex folks.
00:29:25
Speaker
And so it is limiting and doesn't give everybody, especially healthcare providers, the information that they really need and often, right? And so that's where there might be more value in m either expanding it or having a little bit more specifics. So say for example, with somebody female assigned at birth, you know, they often, the healthcare care professionals just blanketly assume that they have a uterus and I'm like, it's not always gonna be the instance and it's but not even trans-specific, right? So it it does not serve fully. And I think there are probably ways that we can ah improve upon the existing setup.
00:30:09
Speaker
That would not only help trans and non-binary folks because I think it is important to know the presence or absence of things. Yeah, of course. Of different parts. But will also help cisgender folks. So it's just, yeah, being a little bit more thoughtful around it and not so kind of unifocused on sex alone. I think that so many cisgender women could really relate to that because don't know about everybody but certainly my experience has been that often if there's a health concern it will be quite often dismissed as like oh it's probably your period it's probably related to you and I'm like okay maybe but also maybe not and it would be nice to not have everything oh you are this gender you are you have you were assigned this sex at birth and therefore every single problem you have is related to your ovaries And it would be really great if we could actually separate that and look at health care from a more individual basis and not make blanket assumptions based on somebody's gender or sex assigned to birth.
00:31:20
Speaker
And so a lot of people can relate to that sort of separate to the fact that they are or are not trans. Absolutely. Yeah. yeah So well put. And I see that in various comments that we follow and, you know, research and whatnot. And I do think we're headed there more generally.
00:31:38
Speaker
And so that's good news for just about everybody. So I'm excited for for that type of future. But, you know, we have a few more steps to get there. Sure. So we can relax on sex assigned at birth, perhaps. Right, right, right, right.
00:31:51
Speaker
And they loosen the grip of it at the very least, right? Because right now we're just like, we're very, very into it. And I appreciate it. I'm not discounting it. But there's maybe a few more things we can add in the mix.
Privacy and Respectful Interactions
00:32:07
Speaker
Just a thought. So. Sure. um So we do, as I mentioned, we do have that reaction video of that scene from the pit. And I was wondering if you I mean, we we do have a long, longer video is like 12 minutes long on on this. But would you be able to just sort of loosely go into that? And I can share it in the show notes.
00:32:27
Speaker
yeah Yeah, we put this together and looking to do other reaction videos too. so But just I think there's something missing often in terms of what the interaction looks like. like you can In all the training, describe like how to do it, but then sometimes there's value in seeing kind of scene by scene. And thankfully, the pit had a really good example of interactions in the healthcare system, obviously not just for healthcare, they're more broadly applicable. And this is a trans person, trans patient coming into the emergency room having hurt. I think it's her arm, if i remember correctly, and and having interaction with the front desk in terms of calling her up to get care. And then also interactions with healthcare professionals. And each one shows a slightly different version of how um either a positive or maybe a little bit more kind of dismissive, maybe neutral interaction. And we just kind of point out why,
00:33:28
Speaker
you know, one versus the other is better. And, you know, why, especially one of the doctors like had just the best response. And you can kind of see the emotion of it from the trans person's perspective. And, you know, people stepping up to the plate as really strong allies. So it's really wonderful. I really appreciate it. One thing I wanted to add, which is not in the reaction video, but it's good to add here in the mix. It goes back to the one of the comments made on the that you mentioned about verification. So sometimes you were like, we need legal first name because that's how we verify people.
00:34:07
Speaker
and I'm like, yes, I totally understand verification. So whatever those points are date of birth, you know legal first name, it's fine.
00:34:18
Speaker
to um But it's how you deal with it, interacting with somebody who has a different name. um And you can do that by saying, hey, this is what I have here for legal name. Is this correct?
00:34:32
Speaker
You know, you don't have to say it out loud as an example. And then just really focusing in on the chosen first name for any verbal communication. So I think just having people kind of reorient on how they use names is really important as part of that process.
00:34:49
Speaker
So just to clarify, if you're if you have ah somebody's legal name and then they also have another field for a preferred name or chosen name or whatever you would like to call it, ah and then always defer to that and not the legal name. Yeah.
00:35:08
Speaker
Definitely within interactions. And then if there's a need to specify the legal first name, rather than saying it out loud, you know, and are you Thomas? You know, it's like, that can be jarring for somebody versus their Isabella. And then just be able to point to the screen and say, this is what I have for your legal first name. Is that correct? Yeah. And then you're not within earshot of other people because this is a public setting. Right. And also that person had to need to be exposed ah in an auditory way to their, to their first
Call to Action for Inclusivity
00:35:43
Speaker
name. So just kind of a bit of a nuance there. Cause sometimes are like, we got us you know, specify the the legal first name and sure that might be the case, but how you do it is really important.
00:35:55
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Sure. So sort of being just a bit more considerate of kind of the situation in front of us on an individual basis. yeah um We have a resource that could support folks going through this. And I was wondering if you could talk about that a little bit. Yeah, this is a ah ah useful resource that we created because there was a gap. Oftentimes it takes organizations a few years to update their system.
00:36:24
Speaker
Even as simple as adding a second field name can take time. And so in the interim, frontline staff were like, okay, what do we do? we don't wanna keep stepping in this pile.
00:36:35
Speaker
And so that's where we came up with this um navigating system limitations for frontline staff. And essentially it gives all these tips and tools and tricks that you can use to use the existing system in its limited state to record information and let others know so that hopefully, you know, a trans person isn't misgendered and or isn't misnamed while the system is being updated.
00:37:01
Speaker
So hopefully that's a ah useful tool for people to use and leverage in certain situations. Amazing. I will link that in the show notes too.
00:37:12
Speaker
Is there anything else you wanted to add before we go? I think we've covered quite a lot, more than I more than i was expecting. Yeah, me too. So I think that's good for now. I'm sure people are curious about the specific solutions because often people are very inspired now knowing the kind of nitty gritty of the the difficulties and the challenges um are very much inspired to get into action. Certainly the interim solutions are are helpful, but I very much invite conversations to explore the kind of specific solutions that would work within organizations if they're ready to to take those steps. So definitely feel free to reach out to us and and explore those options.
00:37:57
Speaker
Amazing. Well, thank you so much, Kai. Thank you too. And have a good rest of day.