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Why “Fitting In” Isn’t Easy for Trans People
36 Plays2 months ago
When trans people come out or begin living more openly, they’re often met with a well-meaning response:
Wouldn’t it be easier to just fit in?
This episode explores why that question comes up so often - and what it misses about coming out as trans or non-binary, gender identity, and the cost of suppressing who you are.
That question can sound like concern for safety or ease. But it often overlooks what “fitting in” actually asks of trans and non-binary people, and the real cost of suppressing identity, expression, and joy.
In this episode, Kai and El explore why this idea comes up so often, and what gets missed when conversations about being trans or non-binary focus only on risk, disruption, or comfort.
They discuss:
• Why “fitting in” is frequently framed as the safer or kinder option for trans people
• What’s overlooked when people focus on the risks of transitioning or coming out without considering the cost of not doing so
• How trans men and trans women are often expected to conform to narrow gender stereotypes in order to be accepted
• Why non-binary people are frequently dismissed, discouraged from coming out, or told it would be easier not to change anything at all
• How coming out can surface discomfort for cisgender people as they realise they’ll need to adjust familiar habits around language and interaction
• Why joy, embodiment, and mental health are so often missing from public conversations about gender and transition
Drawing on personal experience and everyday examples, this episode looks at how conformity is often mistaken for care, and why authenticity is never as simple as “just fitting in.”
This episode is for anyone trying to understand why “just fitting in” isn’t a neutral request — whether you’re trans, non-binary, or someone who wants to support trans people without asking them to shrink.
Rather than debating whether trans people should fit in, this conversation asks a different question:
What does fitting in cost... and who ends up paying the price?
You can view the interview with a non-binary person that we mentioned here: https://youtu.be/_VeLOIxiG4c?si=SqHhQanblXmFkuBK
Where to learn more about our work: https://www.transfocus.ca/
Follow us on social media!
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Transcript
Societal Pressure & Authenticity
00:00:04
Speaker
This whole concept of like, wouldn't it be easier to fit in the way you're describing it is it's kind of not easy regardless of what you do. So you may as well choose yourself if you if you have the capability and the surroundings to support that.
00:00:17
Speaker
Unfortunately, in our North American society, we are encouraged to conform to like on any number of topics, um, to be safe, uh, rather than, uh, being authentic.
00:00:31
Speaker
Um, there's a really kind of deeply embedded script, uh, that reproduces that for just about everybody.
00:00:41
Speaker
Why don't you just fit in? Is a question trans and non-binary people hear, often from people who care and they're trying to be kind. But underneath it is an assumption that fitting in is easier than being authentic.
00:00:56
Speaker
In this episode, we're unpacking why cisgender support often centers on comfort and conformity, why trans men and women are accepted only if they fit familiar expectations, and why non-binary people are often told directly or indirectly that it would be easier not to change at all.
00:01:16
Speaker
Because what's rarely acknowledged is the cost of not being authentic and the unspoken belief that your change forces something on me.
Listening to Diverse Stories & Rethinking Ease
00:01:25
Speaker
This conversation asks us to slow down, listen to stories beyond the binary, stories that have existed for decades, and rethink what ease really means when authenticity is on the line.
00:01:38
Speaker
And um as ever, i am joined by my esteemed colleague, Elle. Hello, how are you doing? Hello, I'm doing very well. How are you? Fantastic. Yeah, I'm having a great day.
00:01:50
Speaker
I'm really glad that we're talking about this one because ah it's something that I think even if it's not directly asked, it's sort of alluded to a lot of the time, like why are you making your life harder than it needs to be by, yeah ah you know, doing certain things that feel authentic to you.
00:02:06
Speaker
And so with that kind of thought, wouldn't it be easier to just try and fit in? Why do you think that question does come up ah so often?
00:02:17
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, it's it's um on the surface a bit complex ah perplexing for trans and non-binary people to hear. They're like, what? um But I appreciate that for some, they're trying to ensure that their trans or non-binary friend, family member, co-worker are
Systemic vs. Individual Changes
00:02:40
Speaker
going to be okay. So it's coming from a good place, right? It's like, I want to protect you. But the protection is coming from you should do something different versus like, how can we create an environment where you can be safe? Right.
00:02:55
Speaker
So it's just a different focus. But um I know why people focus on the person in front of them, because that's a more manageable change than changing the whole system, right? Right, yes. So that's part of what's behind that type of question. But the reason why it comes up is people, as far as I can tell, and I'd love to hear from others if they have additional ideas or alternatives, but are really wrestling with what this means and i that they have very strong notions of these are societal expectations. And there's almost this sense of risk in um diverging from them or doing something different. It's like, holy smokes, what are you doing? um
00:03:41
Speaker
This is, you're going to be like a groundhog above ground and you're going to be hurt. And so this like conformity to protect is a really big thing that comes up a lot. And so it can create this strain between cisgender and trans and non-binary folks because there's this misunderstanding. And people don't realize what they're actually asking trans and non-binary folks to do.
Emotional Costs of Inauthenticity
00:04:11
Speaker
So it's sort of usually coming from a caring place, but it's like it almost feels like a kinder option to some people, some cis folks to to just not push the boat out a little too much or just not to make yourself so noticeable with being different simply because they know the risks that are involved with transitioning. Is that is that kind of what you're saying?
00:04:35
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Or showing up in a different appearance, right? Like there's so many different aspects to it. And unfortunately in our North American society, we are encouraged to conform to like on any number of topics to be safe rather than ah being authentic. There's a really kind of deeply embedded script that reproduces that for just about everybody.
00:05:04
Speaker
Right. Mm-hmm. You've talked about yourself and your own experiences and not wanting to, i can't remember the words you used, but it was something about not wanting to be disruptive. And and because you yourself felt relatively neutral, um you were kind of considering not.
00:05:24
Speaker
Mm causing that disruption and so I was I was kind of wondering about your experiences of of where that shift came from and especially as like you talked about joy and the be feeling more than just neutral is okay wanting to feel more than just neutrality about yourself is possible and so uh yeah I was wondering if you could especially in reference to the sort of as joy comes in what that was like for you if that's okay For sure. Absolutely. Yeah, it's it's helpful to share stories, of of course, if people are comfortable, and certainly I am in this instance. So before I came out, I had a very early understanding that, you know, I was trans. But what I was going to do about it, that was the kind of kicker and the key question.
Joy in Authentic Self-expression
00:06:09
Speaker
So is that clarity can be with somebody, you know, from fairly early age. Um, doing something about it is a big step. And for many, including myself, there's hesitation, you know, there's costs, real tangible costs to these steps. Um, and especially since, you know, there's the narrative out there typically about born in the wrong body and that didn't really resonate for me. i kind of had a neutral posture towards my body. Like, like, you know, was it was okay. You know, it
00:06:45
Speaker
and But i I couldn't really connect to my body or my presentation. Like I tried different things even in my expression and each one of them was like more looking from the outside onto something rather than me being in my body, if that makes sense. Right.
00:07:04
Speaker
And so i um of course, did decide to come out and to share with others. And then in the process of that, um connecting more deeply and closely to my body through a series of steps um and Then i realized, oh, this is because those steps created a lot of joy, like ah in some instances, extreme joy. So extreme, just a little side note that actually had so much joy that I needed to like get it out because it was like so like bottled up. So I had to play.
00:07:43
Speaker
i learned how to play the trumpet. Yeah. Like this joyful, albeit not very, was very cacophonous, very um not very well played trumpet, but it was just so much excitement that I was finally felt at home in my own body and my expression. And so it's not just about kind of troubles with one's bodies or neutrality. We're trying to get to a place of like actually belonging and feeling um excited, maybe not all the time, but just a good about ourselves as trans and non-binary folks. So for me, that is worth the, um,
00:08:28
Speaker
it it It doesn't even come into the equation. Like it it needs to happen. if you ask cisgender folk, you know, if they um would be themselves, like i people wouldn't even know how to answer that question.
00:08:43
Speaker
Of course you you want to be yourself. You know what I mean? So yeah, it's kind of ah a perplexing thing, but for me, it's, it's actually about joy um and,
00:08:56
Speaker
sure certainly I appreciate the costs and, but it doesn't come into play because like I choose joy. Right. Of course. I love that. Thank you for sharing. And on this, then we, you talked about the costs and there are a lot of costs to to so many people who choose to come out or um maybe they don't choose to come out specifically because of the the risks and those costs. um And think,
00:09:23
Speaker
I sort of going on from your experience, I wanted to ask about the cost to not doing that, to not coming out, to not kind of expressing yourself
Mental Health & Stigmatization
00:09:34
Speaker
authentically. And even though that cost isn't always visible from the outside, you might seem like you fit in, but that kind of that cost to yourself and the sort of self um abandonment almost but also within that what gets overlooked when you only focus on the risk of transitioning and you know I suspect it's going to be joy since that's what you just talked about but I would like to go into that a bit further if that's okay yeah
00:10:04
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's so true. And, you know, I want to be careful about, you know, talking about the risks. And i appreciate that some people, it's a difficult decision to come out and there may be pause or maybe avoidance of coming out because of these risks. So I'm handling them quite sensitively because,
00:10:26
Speaker
It's a lot, you know, like there's ah and of course not with everyone, but with, we know from research, there's high degrees of depression, anxiety.
00:10:38
Speaker
um For some, it can come to a place of great despair. And right so many trans stories of right before coming out, there is the kind of ri hitting a rock bottom. of that dissonance between what's inside and what's seen from the outside or expressed on the outside, just being just light years away and different.
00:11:03
Speaker
And so that can have a huge cost. There can also be substance abuse for people who managing that dissonance reach for things to help them with that. It's a coping mechanism because it's just too much to bear.
00:11:20
Speaker
um There can be other types of acting out that may seem like it's really unrelated. But, you know, some examples of that may be mysterious even, like um a lot of trans women or trans feminine folk go into the military Because they're like, okay, I'm going try this thing that society expects me to be.
00:11:47
Speaker
And I'm going to do it like hundredfold, like on fire. Masculinity times 10. ten Let's do it. you know and But that then almost pushes it to another extreme because it's then much further away from who they actually are.
00:12:06
Speaker
Similarly, on the trans masculine side of the spectrum, for myself included, femmed up like to a wild degree. so You know, i really leaned into that and was like, okay, you know, going do it. And again, this this like, I almost put on a performance because i was like, okay, got to really let's, let's try this, you know, and really commit. um But then of course it really does push things um because it's just totally inauthentic, but you know, we're trying to be valiant in the face of, you know, very difficult things inside of us.
00:12:48
Speaker
So all of that to say that there's a huge cost to folks um emotionally, you know, connecting with other people. People can distance themselves, isolate a whole number of things as they're wrestling with these these internal matters.
00:13:09
Speaker
And the flip side, you know, you know want to say this like 100 happens obviously coming out is a complex process and can have many different factors to it but there can be a really positive um aspect to fully being oneself um in terms of you know much better mental health be wanting to connect with other people And productivity at work, because it just unlocks this energy that was kind of in in a grind ah um and kind of weighted down by this dissonance.
Universal Struggle for Authenticity
00:13:48
Speaker
So... There's many other benefits. If, say, for example, for two-spirit folks wanting to be participating in culture and connecting with language and is just like interested in ah being a part of a community and learning.
00:14:08
Speaker
wanting to do sport, you know, it's like on and on that people just are kind of activated and ready to be involved in life. Not to say that that solves everything. Obviously, there's still stigmatization and people struggle with that um and can still have an impact on mental health and have isolation involved. So sometimes for some people, because there's so much stigmatization, it may not look different from before to after. So I did want to preface that as well.
00:14:40
Speaker
I think that's something that's probably quite relatable not obviously not all of it but to quite a lot of people regardless of gender and sort of talking about something completely different I think that yeah probably the majority of us have been in situations where there's been a lot going on for you personally but you have to sort of put on a brave face to present yourself in a certain way whether it's at work or school or whatever it is at friends I don't know at events like most of us have probably experienced that so if you're if you can kind of imagine that all the time it's exhausting and it's not it's not as it's that this whole concept of like wouldn't it be easier to fit in the way you're describing it is it's kind of not easy regardless of what you do so you may as well choose yourself if you if you have the capability and the surroundings to support that
00:15:31
Speaker
Absolutely. That's such a good way of putting it. I really like that. um Because, yeah, at the end of the day, and I'm not doing like a like pro coming out because I appreciate there so many layers and also want to recognize, you know, a cultural aspect to coming out um for some, especially in more collectively oriented cultures, like that's like there's another layer there for them to unpack and So I never want to say, you know, like pro. But yeah, certainly i i do see tremendous value in coming out. And because, yeah, there's just so much at play. And, you know, there's there's like a almost like like a giving of a gift to oneself in that process.
00:16:23
Speaker
It also, the way that you describe at least your experience, and then obviously I know you can't speak for all trans people, but for for the conversations I've had ah so within the community too, um that it usually, that coming out usually follows quite a long period of trying really trying to fit in. Like the way you described your own, you know, your own experiences that you you did try. If the question is, isn't it easier to just try and fit in? There was an attempt for quite a long time. Yeah.
00:16:53
Speaker
So true. It's not like you just woke up and decided to be trans the minute you realized. So yeah, I had a thought and was like, okay, let's do it. Done. right So true. Yeah. I, yeah, that comes up quite a bit is people don't, they don't have a view into the attempts in air quotes. Right. I mean, yes I would invite any cisgender person to try to be another gender, you know, and that the impossibility of that, like, sure, you can do certain things or put clothes on or, you know, have a shorter haircut or whatever, right? But it's, um it just is, it's it's hollow, you know, and I think that's what people don't realize is this is something that a lot of trans people have thought
00:17:43
Speaker
long, about sometimes decades, sometimes half a century, you know, like really long time. um and the even if they didn't, that's okay too, right? I've also always, I want to support trans and non-binary youth too, who maybe they didn't take a long time and that's okay too. It's just...
00:18:00
Speaker
But all that to say that there's just because you somebody might not have a view into that doesn't mean um it's it's important not to dismiss or assume that nothing has happened. Right. that People have gone through a process. Yeah.
00:18:17
Speaker
Yeah. So we've been talking so far about um the sort of process of coming out and deciding whether that's something you can or can't do. And this kind of whole concept of fitting in. But even once that decision has been made and somebody has come out, There is this whole other area of wouldn't it be easier to just fit in, and especially when it comes to um trans men and trans women. There is this expectation that once you have come out and you've shared that you're trans with some with with people, you then have to conform to the gender that you are. So if you are a trans woman, you are expected to wear makeup and put a dress on and grow your hair long. And and if you're a trans man, you must, I don't know, live in a suit and grow a beard. And get your hair short. And like, that's that's not authentic necessarily to regardless of gender. It's not authentic to people if it if it isn't authentic to them. And so why where is this pressure coming from, do you think? Or like, where is that coming from? Oh my
Societal Pressures on Gender Roles
00:19:20
Speaker
gosh.
00:19:20
Speaker
it's It's so learned. It's fascinating. People don't realize like the amount of like from childhood on how every little moment there's like this reinforcement of boys this, girls that, you know, men that, women this, right? And it's it's so much volume of that, that it's all around us. We don't even sometimes even see it, which is fascinating, right? That it's happening so often. um But it's been there for a long time. And, you know, even I sense that often.
00:19:58
Speaker
But then unfortunately, especially in the early days of coming out, there's a lot of talk about towards eat whether with the trans person or without the trans person, people have they're a Twitter with like, they don't quite, you know, fit. Right.
00:20:16
Speaker
Or hopefully they'll get there. They ought to get there. Like there's all these very subtle ways that people are communicating. You're either on the mark or off. And It's hugely damaging because even if somebody wanted to do that, maybe they can't.
00:20:34
Speaker
um Even if, say, they're you know doing gender affirming care, you know it has its own pathway. It may not land exactly how we expect And also sometimes people don't want to fit in, that it's not their um purpose or not their authentic way. um It's not for them. And that's the same for cisgender. Like there are plenty of cis folk for whom that's a pass, you know? And, but frequently people get questioned on that.
00:21:08
Speaker
Even in my experience, very subtle, like I want to be very clear. i got a very mild end of this. um I think trans women, trans femme folk get this way more and it's it's incredibly harmful. um just I've talked to a lot of trans femme, trans women and I hear it over and over and it's really sad.
00:21:29
Speaker
For me on my end, you know, I got very well-meaning people giving me gifts that were very, you know, masculine coded. Some of them were great, like cool, sure, they fit.
00:21:41
Speaker
But in some of them, they they were off because they were trying to fit this mold that rather than like being attuned to maybe what I was interested in, they're like, nope, golf shirts and, you know. Men like this. Yes. I was like, yeah.
00:21:59
Speaker
And I may have said this on other podcasts, but I got to say men's clothing is so dreary. Agreed. Boring.
00:22:09
Speaker
like Although I'm loving loving the floral shirt right now. Exhibit A, right? So... Yeah. And so again, very mild, very well intentioned. um i was able to handle it and, you know, just help them because they were near and dear to me.
00:22:28
Speaker
um But it kind of comes up a lot and One little anecdote too, I had several friends who, because I had a very femme phase, were really stuck there in my early coming out.
00:22:44
Speaker
They're like, right they said over and over at pretty much ad nauseum. At one point I had to kind of shut them down. They're like, you're too feminine to transition. Yeah.
00:22:55
Speaker
they basically said, because you're, you know, you're inclined to some aspects of femininity or feminine expression, that kind of discounts you being a man. And I was like, ah, interesting. um So that's how deep it is to the point where people can question whether somebody is trans um or that this is their path without understanding how deep it runs. This is not about the clothing that one wears. Or the expression that one has. So yeah, all of that to say, and of course, I'm not the only one who gets that.
00:23:31
Speaker
There are lot of people who get questions, comments, stares. They're like, are you sure you're trans because of whatever is, you know, so yeah. So there's just a flavor of some of the things that trans men and women experience, um where it's like you need to fit in order to be accepted for the gender that you are, rather than being like, you are the gender, full stop, and whatever else is extra.
00:24:00
Speaker
And you you sort of said this briefly, but we don't have the same expectations for cisgender people. It's completely, it's not a shock to see a cisgender woman who presents in a very masculine way. It's maybe there's a bit more restrictions on the way that we accept men potentially.
00:24:18
Speaker
But I would say that we're a lot more accepting of differences of gender expression amongst cisgender people. But the idea of if you've transitioned, what's the point in doing all of that if you haven't if you're not willing to then conform to what's expected? it's It's quite a weird thing that we just don't apply to cisgender people.
00:24:39
Speaker
It goes a little bit deeper. I'm just thinking about this now is, and this is a little bit more in the past when it comes to accessing gender affirming care. It used to be that you had to demonstrate and we used to call it, ah we didn't in the community, but the medical community was to call it real lived experience. Yeah. And what that meant is if you were a trans woman, you had to dress but feminine and you had to employer like sign off on that. You appeared, you know, in a, I don't don't think it was specifically a dress, but you know what I mean? Like, it's so like, I think that's so staggeringly cruel to to put someone in that position. Yeah.
00:25:20
Speaker
And it's like you go from one conformity or like a performance to another. And it's just like, oh, we're just doing the same thing. But okay, we're getting a little closer. But this this intervention. And so there's this like view from the outside into a person's experience and kind of kind of controlling them um in order to be able to access the care that they need.
00:25:45
Speaker
So it's like you had to do a year of that. And of course, people do it because they really need the care. And so like, OK, let's do this. um But it's awful and it has an impact. So, yeah.
00:25:56
Speaker
Now, we've talked about the expectations of trans women and trans men. So what about non-binary people then? Where do they fit when it comes into sort of conforming? And, you know, we expect trans women to to do X, Y and Z and to look a certain way in order to fit as trans as as women. And the same goes for for trans men. So, yeah, what happens with non-binary people? What what um pressures do they have? or Also, how do you how do you perform non-binary? Please tell me. I'd love to know. Like, I'm here taking notes. yeah Like, well, I mean, according to some cisgender people, there's a very strong expectation that non-binary folks all look androgynous.
00:26:44
Speaker
That's a very big one. So it's like if you're either femme or masculine presenting, it's like, what's going on here? Are you really non-binary? Yeah. like who, what, you know, they just like can't kind of compute for many.
00:27:01
Speaker
ah It's like you're only accepted if your gender identity aligns with your gender expression. And so, and somehow we've mapped on, Even maybe not many people have thought about it or known one about non-binary folks, but we've already mapped on androgyny to non-binary-ness. And so it's like, okay, that was fast.
00:27:21
Speaker
Another thing that can happen that I've heard is that non-binary folks are discouraged from coming out at all. or accessing gender affirming care. They're like, why do it? doesn't make any sense. You know, what are you doing? Why disrupt your life this much? For what? You know, like people don't understand like how fundamental this is to their being. And so we'll wholesale dismiss and we'll want to like invisibilize. don't know if that's a verb, but yeah. will actively want erase non-binary folks and
00:28:02
Speaker
Largely because in our society, we have, or I would say Western society, have largely not seen or understood the spectrum of of gender identity. We've thought only men and women, boys and girls, that's it.
00:28:18
Speaker
Case closed and everything else. What are you talking about? Versus... Especially in a lot of ancient societies around the world and here here also in Turtle Island with two-spirit folks and indigenous societies definitely had a much better understanding of that diversity that exists for gender and had a place for it.
00:28:43
Speaker
And we we don't have contact with that in in Western society. Mm-hmm. What's some of the things that you've heard, maybe to add to what we've, I've mentioned.
00:28:57
Speaker
Yeah, it was sort of the same really. There is ah ah somebody who presents quite, um in quite a feminine way, there is this sort of complete disbelief that I am non-binary because of that. And it it did ah sort of, maybe this time last year, I was really, well, like even before coming out, I was, it's one of the things that caused me to hesitate because I was like, oh, I don't know. Like, it's not really a big deal because I'm not going to change the way I look. So, yeah. But it's like this equation of of telling people, sharing with the people that I care about and love the real authentic part of me versus having to perform in some way to to like be validated or um I don't know,
00:29:44
Speaker
I don't know. It just feels like a performance having to, I went, I did go through and not, I never went through an androgynous phase, but I did go through a slightly, um, I tried to shave, I shaved the back of my head. tell you i did tell you that tried to be a little bit more mask. That's the most I did. it didn't, it didn't help. mask A little cheeky bit of mask, but it didn't happen for me.
00:30:04
Speaker
um But yeah, this this idea of having to, like, rather than gender just being something that you can play with, like, especially your expression, like, it can be so playful and fun, and you can just figure out what fits and what doesn't. um And it doesn't need to be ascribed to a...
00:30:23
Speaker
gender like you can just and also what I find interesting is this idea of androgyny because I do I have had that question before but androgyny usually means mask it doesn't like there aren't really true you know dresses aren't androgynous but jeans are and and it's just I find that really interesting unless you were necessarily like maybe as a sort of I was born i was assigned female at birth so it's expected that I would be more masculine presenting and that would class as androgyny and I and I don't know but maybe if somebody were um assigned male at birth they would be expected to be more feminine perhaps in order to co to perform androgyny and it's like why like let us just wear what we want to wear it's and it's it's very shallow it's sort of reducing an identity down to like what clothes I wear and that really depends on
00:31:11
Speaker
all sorts of things I don't wear what I used to wear in 2008 and thank goodness for that but that doesn't mean my my gender identity is different so wait great well and that's a good point because sometimes people show up in a different expression at work and then suddenly people are reverse engineering and are like are you transitioning are you going to come out as trans like right it's just like hyper vigilant and you're like wait a second this person is just expressing themselves just getting coats it's all right yeah Yeah. And maybe there's more to it or maybe not. Maybe it's just different expression as people evolve, right? As to your point, right? So, and then not have to do anything about gender.
Impact of Societal Expectations on Expression
00:31:52
Speaker
It's just people all want to wear hoop earrings.
00:31:54
Speaker
Done. Right. Yeah. so No one. Yeah. It doesn't mean anything. And I also think that like, like you talked about ah really leaning into like femininity and performing that. I had a real rejection of femininity when I was younger. There was not, not all time it was a very short-lived period of my life but not ah not not uh the shaved head era that i was in the in era before that when i was in school i decided that i hated everything girly and pink and that was like a complete rejection of the way i wanted to express my gender and also i didn't have the language for it at the time but i can see now that it was me struggling with my gender not necessarily always feeling aligned with being a girl this is when I was a teenager and therefore rejecting everything that I really liked because I i didn't know how to fit like I didn't know how to fit in with all of that and it's it's quite a confusing thing when you don't have a blueprint for any of it so for sure right I think that um
00:32:54
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's a it's an interesting idea that we have these expectations of how people should fit in. And yeah we can just all benefit from relaxing that, I think.
00:33:05
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'll just add that expectations doesn't always mean saying something. I think sometimes you were like, oh, it's only if you say something. Even if you stare and or like, you know, like so sometimes we squint with suspicion, you know, like these things. subtle clues cues that we're putting out there and people are sometimes picking up right and it it can kind of vibe that it's not right um even double takes can really be disconcerting do you know from personal experience no I've never well I've been with friends where that people have very visibly done or done a double take and it's like
00:33:51
Speaker
nothing nothing was said they then got on with their lives but that double take changed the mood slightly and it made my friend feel different you know even though they were just expressing themselves yeah as we all do yeah and it's like that we kind of started with the question why don't you just fit in that double take is that question So that's really interesting. We can come through and settle in subtle and not so subtle ways. So, yeah.
Adjusting to Changes When People Come Out
00:34:23
Speaker
You alluded to this in the, in there or you didn't allude to us, or you directly said this in the, um in your introduction, you mentioned about um this awareness that when somebody transitions,
00:34:38
Speaker
the people around them have to adjust to. So when it's, this question is presented, why don't you just try to fit in It's maybe comes from a place of care, but there might also be this little sort of thought in someone's head that, oh,
00:34:56
Speaker
you're you're changing and now I'm gonna have to do something about that I'm gonna have to change my behavior I'm gonna have to adjust in some way and especially cis people kind of grappling with the changes that they're being asked to make like how how does that um what what does that look like or how do you see that oh That's ah such a good one. And yeah, ah coming out is a big step for somebody to share, but then there's the receiving end of it of now cisgender family members, friends, co-workers are asked to to do things differently, whether it's you know, a new set of pronouns, whether it's one set or multiple or neo-pronoun, which might be new for somebody, it could be a different name.
00:35:45
Speaker
And there's like deep patterns established around these types of things, right? It's not like a ah small thing. um How people have talked about or even kind of like imagined that person's life is different.
00:36:02
Speaker
Right. We often kind of map forward. I think especially parents like, yes, I think it's understandable. Like I'm I don't in any way fault parents for doing this like you're like, OK, and then they'll do this and, you know, maybe marriage, maybe kids and, you know, and they see their child going to play a particular role within each of those steps. Right.
00:36:25
Speaker
And when somebody comes out, it just kind of blows up that image. um And so there's kind of a a reconciling or like figuring out or remapping or, you know, a whole number of steps or practicing to be able to more fluently say a new name or a different set of pronouns or or whatnot. It's just, it is there is an effort.
00:36:50
Speaker
um Right. I think humans in general, no matter the topic, are can be averse to change. Right. You know, like our minds want to follow patterns and especially if they're well established over decades, like,
00:37:06
Speaker
people would rather try to negotiate their way out of it rather than take on the change. And that reading, that negotiation can look like the question, why don't you want to fit in, you know, or it could be even resistance. Like this is not a thing to total dismissal.
00:37:26
Speaker
It could be anger. Like, why are you doing this to me type of vibes? It could be all kinds of different things, but at the end of the day, What is being asked is pretty small relative to what is at play for that individual, the depth to which this goes.
00:37:45
Speaker
And with a little practice, it actually isn't as difficult. may look at the first glance like, holy crap, that was a lot, versus... you know a year or so down the road it's if intentional uh effort has been applied it's actually not big a deal like i i've heard my mom at some point be like i don't know why i made this such a big deal you know in hindsight Of course, hindsight is always, you know, easier, but we have to go through a process. It's okay, but it's well worth that process. And it's an important one for sure. So, that yeah, just gives you some sense of, you know, that what's happening on the receiving end.
Historical Misunderstanding of Non-binary Identities
00:38:29
Speaker
One other thing I wanted to add is... And we'll put a link to this in the the show notes is oftentimes people, especially when it comes to non-binary gender identities, will say, this is new.
00:38:42
Speaker
Right. Where did this come from? As if to say this has never existed before, you know. Right. And i was recently on YouTube and I came across this TV show segment, like a talk show, and they were interviewing somebody who what we would describe now as non-binary. Back then they had a different word for it.
00:39:02
Speaker
And um just like answering very candidly, very openly, um but kind of you could tell the interviewer was really struggling. This is probably back in the 80s. And so just like... totally mystified by this non-binary person, but this, this ah this, the interviewee just being very thoughtful, but also not kind of giving in to the pressure that some of the questions inadvertently were creating, yeah you know? um
00:39:33
Speaker
And I think actually this, now that I think about it, that interview had the question, the interviewer did ask, why don't you just fit in? And so that is what inspired this whole episode. and And it's a very beautiful response. So I invite you to, and I won't spoil it, how they respond to that, but it just gives you another lens into um the the depth of this type of experience. So anyways, just a ah final plug on that and encourage folks to see it.
00:40:05
Speaker
I really love that interview because it's sort of done with so much sincerity. The person asking the questions really just has no idea what this person is talking about and yet asks questions that is just curiosity and and not really judgment, even though that question of why don't you try and fit in, it's not...
00:40:22
Speaker
at least in when I watched it it was more just like this is hard it's not it's not a judgment on this person and I think it's such a beautiful example of um maybe not asking all of those questions that they asked but just like you're allowed to be curious and that doesn't mean judgment you can have openness to it Yeah, absolutely. And hopefully be ah surprised by some of the answers in ways that not only and like share from that person's experience, but then also provide a broader insight into our own gender and, you know, maybe shed light on things that you've not thought about for your own gender. And we can all kind of fill out the picture further collectively. So at least that's my hope.
00:41:11
Speaker
I hope so. Cool. Thank you so much. i I'll share that in the show notes, a link to that interview. And yeah, thank you so much, Kai. Yeah, thank you too.
00:41:21
Speaker
Bye for now. See you. Bye. Bye.