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Why There Are No Shortcuts to Trans Inclusion
35 Plays1 month ago
When organizations start working on workplace inclusion, diversity and inclusion in the workplace, or broader DEI strategy, there’s often pressure to act quickly. Add a new category to a form, update a policy, maybe change a washroom sign or run a training session. Those steps can feel tangible and productive.
But real inclusion, especially when it comes to gender identity, trans inclusion in the workplace, and non-binary inclusion strategies, is rarely solved by one visible change.
In this episode of Gender in Focus, Kai and El explore why there are no shortcuts to inclusion and why “just fix this one thing” can sometimes create new challenges elsewhere. They unpack how to tell whether a proposed change is a meaningful structural improvement or simply a visible gesture that leaves deeper systems untouched.
Drawing on real client experiences, they examine what meaningful diversity and inclusion work actually requires. Not just adding something new, but assessing existing systems, understanding culture, thinking through trade-offs, and making deliberate decisions about long-term impact.
In this conversation, they discuss:
- Why quick fixes in workplace DEI can create unintended consequences
- Why adding extra gender options to a form is rarely the full solution
- The difference between structural change and cultural change
- How trans inclusion in the workplace affects both employees and customers
- The trade-offs organizations must navigate, including privacy versus safety and cost versus impact
- Why effective gender diversity strategy requires thoughtful choices rather than silver bullet answers
They also share examples from their consulting work, including moments where a trans-specific policy was not actually the right solution and where the real issue turned out to be cultural rather than structural.
This episode is for leaders, HR professionals, operations teams, policy makers, and anyone responsible for workplace systems who wants to better understand how to support trans and non-binary people in ways that are practical, sustainable, and grounded in reality.
Inclusion is not about ticking a box or implementing a single change. It is an ongoing process of reflection, assessment, and intentional decision-making.
If you are working on diversity and inclusion in your organization and wondering whether you are addressing the right problems, this conversation offers a grounded framework for thinking through inclusion decisions in real-world organizational settings.
Recommended
Transcript
Balancing Workplace Needs
00:00:04
Speaker
There are a whole variety of different needs that need to be balanced in this. And ah you're obviously coming into this through the lens of wanting to make the workplace better for trans people, but that doesn't mean we ignore everybody else's needs too. There's actually a way of finding this kind of connection between everybody. I think people want or think there is like this perfect silver bullet solution that will take care of everything. Right. Sadly, i hate to break the news. It's not, you know, there's a lot of things that we can solve, but there are going to be moments where there's going to tough decisions. And even within those tough decisions, there can be thoughtful balancing.
Challenges with Quick Fixes
00:00:48
Speaker
When organizations start thinking about trans inclusion, there is often this moment of, okay, something's gone wrong, something's not right, what's the fix? Like there must be one thing, one policy, one form field, one piece of training. And if you change that, then everything's sorted. But unfortunately, it's almost never that simple. Most of the time, the thing that looks like a quick fix ends up connecting to five other systems you didn't even realize were involved. And if you rush it, you can accidentally make things messier instead of better.
Comprehensive Approach to Trans Issues
00:01:20
Speaker
So today we're talking about why quick fixes rarely work, what it actually looks like to slow down and assess the bigger picture and how thinking through trade-offs leads to solutions that actually work for everyone, not just trans people.
00:01:34
Speaker
Kai is here with me, thankfully, to talk it through. How are you doing, Kai? I'm doing fantastic. Yeah, I'm really excited to be talking about this topic. And yeah, I had a good weekend. And now we're into the week. I'm i'm actually genuine genuinely excited about this topic.
Misconceptions and Trade-offs
00:01:53
Speaker
Because...
00:01:53
Speaker
I think that it plays on quite a lot of people's thoughts. Like when it comes to gender at work, I think people are like, okay, we need this thing fixed. So we'll just go in and we'll fix that one thing and then everything's okay. And that's not reflective of the work that you see at Transfocus, right? That's right. So it's a good place to start when we're talking about all the projects that we've had or people have come to us thinking that there is this quick and easy fix. What have those situations actually looked like when they kind of unfold? Mm hmm.
00:02:24
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, i appreciate that people want a quick fix. I mean, I, when it comes to other things, I'm like, okay, what's the fast thing, right? I mean, we live in a fast based world. And, you know, we want to relieve that tension that we feel on a particular topic, and maybe for some feel really uncertain about it And so it's like, okay, quickly get to the resolution. Right.
Thoughtful Trade-offs and Solutions
00:02:48
Speaker
yeah,
00:02:49
Speaker
yeah understandable and also i've just found time and time again you know people come in whether it's a request for education which is an understandable place to start or thinking oh there's this system thing it feels like it should be a really quick thing of like let's just add a field or add a category and then yeah, they just kind of, we unpack it a little bit and then they realize, oh wait a second, this has cascading impacts or this ties or connects to something else downstream or, um oh, I didn't realize we need to think about things in like a trade-off way. Like, well, we could gain this, but we might have to let go of that. And so it's just that that tension kind of needs to be further resolved with discussion strategies. Certainly we come with best practices, but there are a few handful of options in each topic. And so just thoughtfully thinking those through is a really important part. And then certainly thinking also an eye to implementation. A lot of these topics, especially when it comes to gender diversity, are sadly, you know, ah a little bit more charged and people can lack the understanding that's needed. And so that has to be thought through there carefully as well.
Focus on Trans Employees and Customers
00:04:13
Speaker
And so when when organizations come to you with an issue, whether it's something that they have realized something needs to be fixed or maybe an incident has happened and they need to kind of figure out how to make sure it doesn't happen again, usually the desire to help is quite strong. But then what's actually needed, the the pathway itself isn't isn't clear. And so when organizations jump to that quick fix,
00:04:41
Speaker
what What can happen? Like what's the backlash of that rather than just going in and doing the the sort of band-aid thing that they want to do? Yeah. People, they think that it it'll be a quick thing, but then especially when the path is unclear, it takes a minute to to kind of get one's ah footing as well as understand the full scope of things, what the issues are, and also their corresponding solutions. Unfortunately, if people kind of rush into a quick fix or solving something quickly, they can create more damage, even if that wasn't the intention.
00:05:24
Speaker
They unfortunately, okay, let's just add this category and call it a day. But then people ask questions or they're upset or it doesn't quite fit their needs if they haven't thought through the full spectrum of needs. Of course, it's not just trans men and women. There's non-binary folks. There's two-spirit folks, right?
00:05:46
Speaker
right Being thoughtful about the pathway that one chooses And being, um it's not to say that all things will be solved, but to have confidence in like, okay, this is what we're deciding for these reasons. And we're we're assured that we're making this decision and we have the supporting rationale. And also that we can explain it to other people and understand if it doesn't quite actually meet everybody's needs to be say, hey, we considered that. And unfortunately, because of this reason, we're able to adopt exactly. But we have this alternative, right? And so these kinds of kind of nimble shifts and um explanations can be hugely helpful, even if people don't agree with what somebody, the approach that an organization took. hmm.
00:06:41
Speaker
I want to come back to that because I do have some questions. Well, that I've just thought of actually. and So i'll come I'll come back to that. But ah one of the things I kind of wanted to do was talk about that process of realizing that the picture is bigger than first thought. And and one of the things you've talked about before is people...
00:07:02
Speaker
considering let's say for example trans customers and they're trying to think of ways around making their organization a better place for their customers that might be trans but maybe don't look at the actual much wider picture was which is that they potentially have trans people within their own organization they have trans people as employees and so there's there's a lot more to think about and so I was wondering if you could go into the process of that and what that looks like is that a question Yes, absolutely. i What I like hear is that there's there's multiple components and often clients can come in for one or the other. So oftentimes it's customers or clients because, of course,
00:07:46
Speaker
people are customer oriented understandably they want their organization to serve and to thrive and to contribute and you know offer services or goods um and if there's a barrier to that then that can you know things can break down and of course it it's difficult for staff to or employees to know how to handle those very delicate and often sensitive issues So that there's a kind of a breakdown there when it comes to customers. But if they're only focused on customers, they lose sight of the fact that they have somebody who potentially is trans or non-binary in their staff or employees. And so you can lose track of one or the other.
00:08:32
Speaker
And what I tend to explain is that there there's a bit of a feedback loop between the two. Right. how trans customers or clients are treated gets observed by trans and non-binary employees, whether they're out or not, especially if they're not out, they're really carefully monitoring this type of interaction to be like, yeah, I can imagine. to share And if it's a really crappy interaction, then they're like, mum's the word. We're not going to ever share about being trans or non-binary. um
00:09:07
Speaker
And, you know, it could also be a positive feedback loop. So if a trans customer is treated well, then that creates a relief and a sense of safety and like, oh, okay, um this organization knows how to handle these situations and maybe feels more confident to open up about themselves in many different ways. Yeah.
00:09:31
Speaker
Similarly, I would say customers, if they know somebody is trans, whether they shared that or you know it's observable, and they can also be making assessments about organizations. And so it's really important to have both in view, even if you're going to focus on one as a you know strategy session or education. It's okay to focus, but just not lose sight of the other part of the puzzle.
Gender Inclusion Trade-offs
00:09:58
Speaker
Okay, I want to come back to what you were saying about trade-offs, because i think that's really important. And I also think that maybe, well, I mean, I'm inventing this, I've got no way of verifying this is true. But I i i feel like people would maybe be surprised that this is a consideration that there are...
00:10:17
Speaker
a whole variety of different needs that need to be balanced in this and ah you're obviously coming in into this through the lens of wanting to make the workplace better for trans people but that doesn't mean we ignore everybody else's needs too that there's actually a way of finding this kind of connection between everybody to to make it a generally better better workplace for everybody and so i really want to ask you about how those trade-offs show up once you actually start working through all of the options and how yeah, this it's not a one size fits all or or one one solution is correct. And I find that really interesting.
00:10:54
Speaker
Yeah, it's so important to to think of that. I think people want or think there is like this perfect silver bullet solution that will take care of everything. right Sadly, i hate to break the news. It's not, yeah know there's a lot of things that we can solve, but there are going to be moments where there's going be tough decisions. And even within those tough decisions, there can be thoughtful balancing. And whether that's within the gender spectrum for trans and non-binary folks, but also across with cis folks as well, right? And so we're thinking about washrooms or expanding gender categories or adding a first name field within an information system, or creating a policy even. These are key parts where we want to look at what those trade-offs are. um
00:11:50
Speaker
And, you know, ah a big one is or like cost consideration. So it kind of ties to viability and of course, tough decisions within organizations. Do we spend it here or there? So that is a consideration and we try to go for solutions that are low to medium cost so that they can be implemented quickly. right There can be trade-offs also with and like the tension between privacy and safety.
00:12:25
Speaker
That one is really interesting. And i be it's counterintuitive, right? I mean, yeah i you think, okay, if you have privacy, you can also have safety. And you can, but say in a washroom context, the more you enclose something, the less one can see in to be able to help if there's a safety issue, right? right And of of course, many, not just trans folks, want privacy. Yeah. I think probably because more and more in our society, we're just way visible. And so I think there's this wanting to be enclosed. some so
00:13:04
Speaker
um But then, you know, you have to think about safety. And so it's where you position privacy in relation to safety. So, For example, in all gender multi-stall, the the privacy is at the the level of the stall. So it's it fully enclosed, its own door, you know no gaps, um versus the safety is the the open concept, open entrances. a free flow through the space, very lit so that you can see. And so that can kind of balance the two, but you have to think about that thoughtfully to create that.
00:13:45
Speaker
um There's also a um I wouldn't say it there's kind of a misconception of a trade-off between trans women and cis women. And so not all trade-offs are real.
00:13:56
Speaker
um Right. There can be a sense of that being the case, but actually once you look at all the dimensions, whether it's within a washroom or related to a policy, it actually is contributing to both. And so that's where we're bringing all those together. But you do have to appreciate the unique experiences of each. And I think that's where sometimes things go missing. So those are just a few examples, but the trade-offs, we have a very careful mechanism for bringing those up and talking about them in a frank, candid way. We're not shying away from them so that we surprise later on.
00:14:39
Speaker
But we're just trying to surface them. And oftentimes in certain settings, we can also do a bit of a tradeoff analysis so that we're attributing numbers and yeah fleshing that out a little bit more.
00:14:52
Speaker
Have you ever suggested something that's taken people by surprise when it comes to the trade offs? Because like I imagine you've like the way that you've talked about stuff like this before is that that there has to be a level of creativity or ah sort of outside the box thinking when it comes to finding these solutions for like so many different groups. And I'm curious about whether you've shocked everybody by suggesting.
00:15:13
Speaker
Oh my gosh, I can't tell you the number of times where I've kind of, whether it's intuitively or because I've, you know, read so widely and implemented so deeply where I've suggested things and people like, what? i take um i One time, i they were working on a trans-specific policy and I was like, do we need this? And people were a little bit taken aback at first. Obviously, there are times and places where it's it is necessary. right
00:15:46
Speaker
But in this particular instance with this client, there were actually so many other policies that already spoke to all the different components that we had in the trans-specific policy. And it kind of made the trans thing stand out.
00:16:02
Speaker
and Right. it was already addressed. And so we just kind of, but that's another part of what we do is kind of take a look around the trans-Pacific pieces to say, okay, where else is this already happening?
00:16:15
Speaker
And if it's already happening, then you might not need the thing. So that's where the proper assessment comes to play. is ah you know being very you know comprehensive and looking different places that people might have have looked before and realized, oh yeah, we we're actually okay. And right maybe you need to beef up those those other policies to have trans-Pacific examples among others.
00:16:41
Speaker
So that's one ah surprise. ah Another time we were working with a hosteling company organization and that had the infrastructure, you know, had a women's dorm, a men's dorm and a mixed dorm. So they had the space set up properly. um And they were surprised the fact that this was actually a cultural solution, not a structural one. So they thought they were going to have to rejig the structure somehow. It would cost a lot of money, but actually it was just more about training staff on how to, you know, flow people into spaces and not how to take them out of spaces either.
00:17:29
Speaker
So it was more of a dynamic issue than it was a structural issue. So it's just like, again, the proper assessment to see what's actually going on to be able to apply the proper solutions. So there's just some examples. There's many other surprises where, you know, we we kind of, um I think pleasantly, hopefully pleasantly surprised folks to to have some creativity, particularly around choice among options. That's where we tend to land a lot is just making sure there's enough for folks to self-select. And that benefits so many people beyond transcendent binary people.
00:18:08
Speaker
Yeah. This seems to me like a really big theme then is kind of pausing, slowing down and just sort of being aware of what's of what you already have. And i kind of want you to go into that in a bit more detail before diving into to a solution that may not
Taking Inventory for Strategy
00:18:28
Speaker
be necessary. I was wondering if you could expand on that. Yeah.
00:18:31
Speaker
More often than not, when we start a process with an organization, we'll ask what they have. And, you know, depends on which topic, if it's about washrooms, we'll ask if they have an inventory of their current configurations.
00:18:49
Speaker
Maybe, you know, if they have one building, it's different levels or multiple buildings, you know, just anything that gives view into what's happening right now. or if they're wanting to implement a policy, what are some of the issues that have already come up that they've documented, and we can review those, or what other policies they have. That's also another bit of an inventory. We're just taking stock of what it is that's happening, and more often than not, actually organizations know what they have, but they haven't looked at it through the lens of gender, And so, yeah, it's really cool because, um you know, they have a sense of what they have, but then we add, we have a washroom inventory that allows them to put, even if they already have an inventory, they can kind of populate it in our inventory, which allows them to see the ratio between gender specific. So men's women's toilets or urinals, maybe showers compared to all gender. And then they can really see, oh,
00:19:52
Speaker
our ratio is like really low. We, we, we knew we had some, but we didn't realize just how low. So that number kind of really wakes them up. Yeah. yeah like It's very tangible in that case. Yeah.
00:20:07
Speaker
Yeah. And so that that stock taking is super important first step in any strategy, no matter the topic. And we review that and digest it. And then we're in a much better position to recommend something that's actually actionable rather than just like cookie cutter and formulaic. um And kind of can plug in to where they're already at and where they want to go. So if, say, they have a low ratio of like 10% of their fixtures, their toilets or their urinals are all gender, that's too low and something needs to be done.
00:20:49
Speaker
And then we can pinpoint within their inventory, oh, here on the second floor, there might be an option of doing X, Y, and z or, you know, in this other building, you know, so we can really create a tailored plan. But the inventory is a a really important first step, rather than kind of rushing into things and um just starting to apply things without contact.
00:21:15
Speaker
Do you ever get, put a sorry, I'm asking for all the gossip now. Do you ever get pushback when you're trying to like, um I don't know, not dive straight in? Because I can imagine, okay, again, this is me inventing things. I don't know if this is true or not, because I'm not in client meetings. But I can imagine there's either some um real hesitation about doing anything at all. And that's where maybe that kind of stop taking is really helpful. And then I can imagine the other side of that is that some folks are so eager to just get in and and do it that maybe it could feel like there's these extra steps that is holding it back. Do you ever get that kind of balance? Is is that hard to find sometimes?
00:21:57
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Well, for sure. If, especially if there's been an incident, uh, people feel really badly and they coming from a good hearted place, they want to prevent this from happening ever again
Interim Measures for Urgent Issues
00:22:12
Speaker
quickly. And I get that impulse, right? yeah Like, it's just like, okay, let's shut this down. Let's quickly apply something. Anything we'll do. Yeah. And the stock taking or inventory taking can feel um not superfluous. I think people understand the need for it, but they also worry about delay. Like, is this going to delay it now, you know, a month, six months, a year? Like, this is, we can't have this. And so,
00:22:44
Speaker
if those are very If it's like a very pressing issue that's reoccurring frequently, then of course we have interim measures where we can like, okay, quick fix, here are some things that you can do right away. right Usually like staff oriented in terms of how they can interact with folks um and even interim places to put things if if it's in an information system or even knowing where other washrooms options are outside of the building or on another floor, right? So it's just like we can be quite dynamic and creative um to so address those pressing issues.
00:23:23
Speaker
But we do very much, you know, suggest the inventory taking and we assure folks that, mean, we can do it fairly quickly too, right? We're not thinking... two years to figure it out um right you know we we've got fast systems to to make it um make the magic happen so to speak but i appreciate it when it it could feel like um a delay in some sense right right um an important thing an important step to take if you want to see things more clearly makes sense there's so many lessons that of course we've learned over the years with doing the work that we've done. Obviously we're very much focused on practical, focused on implementation. We want things to get off the runway. want organizations to have success so that trans and non-binary folks feel better and have sense of belonging and whatnot. Um, And, you know, depending on if it's the cultural side of things or the structural side of things, each one of them have, you know, their own solutions.
Deliberate Decision-making
00:24:30
Speaker
And we just really encourage, you know, whether it's with us or with others, just that deliberate approach is so key. And yeah, sure, it can feel bit slow, maybe even. But there's that, I think, the expression of like measure twice cut once think right I don't if I'm getting that wrong maybe it's the other way around I don't I think it's um but uh there there's tremendous value in that I'll I'll add an aha moment related especially to gender data of course it's not just applicable to gender data but um
00:25:09
Speaker
Usually clients come in are like, okay, what additional category, one single category do we add and and we're done, right? So they think it's going to be like a five-minute talk of me being like, just add non-binary, you know? Right. Okay, cool, done. um But it's not as simple as that. we usually try to explain what's happening around and understand their objectives. Right. And I think sometimes clients, they just want a pure data download from us right without them maybe participating as much. They're a bit surprised by how much they're also in the driver's seat. We're kind of sharing the driver's seat.
00:25:57
Speaker
They've got half of the wheel. I've got the other half. And we're just like, you know, ah you know, for first short amount of time. um But I think they do need to contribute and make decisions. Of course, informed decisions based on what we share. um But they do need to decide. And I think sometimes people are uncomfortable with deciding. And I would very much encourage folks not to be afraid of a decision, especially if you've spent some time thinking about it and understanding it.
00:26:30
Speaker
I think decisions are important. We just at some point have to like we've done all the weighing, we've done the inventorying and now we're like, okay, we're going to go with this and right maybe you'll update along the way, but you know, for now you're just, you've got to go.
00:26:49
Speaker
And so I think that's, that's an important thing to not to be afraid of deciding and going with it. Makes sense. Cool. Well, thank you so much, Kai. Yeah, thank you. Hopefully that's helpful. And, you know, we' we've also, i think i one thing I can plug is we do have to to look out for is we did some surveying of our past clients. And we will be sharing an impact a report that Transfocus, what has happened over the last 10 years and you know what what has happened because of what we've been involved with. And so that might be of interest to some people listening. so And we'll share that in the future time. Amazing. Cool. Thank you so much, Kai.
00:27:31
Speaker
Yeah, thank you. Bye for now. Bye.