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A Decade of Trans Inclusion... But We're Just Getting Started
34 Plays1 month ago
Ten years ago, TransFocus didn’t exist — and conversations about gender identity in the workplace and trans inclusion were very different.
What began as a volunteer effort advising on gender inclusion in public spaces has grown into a decade of consulting, education, and strategy focused on trans inclusion, non-binary inclusion, and workplace gender diversity.
In this special 10-year anniversary episode of Gender in Focus, Kai and El are joined by co-founder Drew Dennis to reflect on how it all began - and what it actually took to build sustainable systems-based trans inclusion over the past decade.
From early municipal policy recommendations to supporting HR teams navigating gender identity in the workplace for the first time, this conversation traces how trans inclusion strategy evolved alongside changing laws, political climates, and public understanding.
They explore:
- How early work on gender inclusion in public spaces shaped workplace inclusion practices
- What it was like supporting organizations before gender identity was widely protected in law
- How HR professionals began seeking guidance on how to support trans employees and non-binary inclusion
- The emotional and professional realities of building DEI strategy around lived experience
- How backlash and cultural shifts have reshaped diversity and inclusion work
- What sustainable, long-term trans inclusion in the workplace actually requires
At a time when conversations about gender identity and trans rights are increasingly visible - and often contested - this reflection feels especially timely.
This episode is both a behind-the-scenes origin story and a practical look at how to build meaningful gender inclusion in workplaces and public-facing organizations.
If you work in HR, leadership, policy, or operations - or are responsible for workplace inclusion and DEI strategy - this conversation offers insight into how to support trans employees thoughtfully and how inclusive systems are built over time.
Ten years in, the work continues.
And we’re just getting started.
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Transcript
The Unique Gift of Experience and Skills
00:00:05
Speaker
You know, I was good at being able to convene people around a cause, or I was good at budgeting, or i was good at these things. What I realized was my gift, my skill, was my experience as being a non-binary person living in this world. That was my gift. And I think that was sort of a key moment early in the work with Transfocus that really helped me to understand that. And the other skill sets were just my tools in the toolkit to help share that gift.
Resetting Conversations for Future Focus
00:00:29
Speaker
And we need to reset the conversation, essentially, realizing this is where people are stuck, you know, and there's like a handful of topics that I could rattle off, but for another episode.
00:00:43
Speaker
And so like now we're really keying in on those and really leaning into them rather than running away from them.
Transfocus 10th Anniversary and Founding Insights
00:00:56
Speaker
This episode feels like such a special one because at the beginning of this year, Transfocus turned 10 years old, which is such an exciting milestone to have hit. Today, we are so lucky to have Transfocus co-founder Drew Dennis join Kai and I on the pod to talk about those early days, how a volunteering effort snowballed into something so much bigger and how Transfocus grew from a chat over coffee to impacting people and organizations all over the world.
00:01:22
Speaker
Kai and Drew, I am so excited to have you both here. How are you doing?
Founders' Personal Journeys and Early Involvement
00:01:26
Speaker
Amazing. Oh, doing terrific. Thank you. So first of all, Drew, I joined Transfocus long after you stepped away. So your name has always kind of been floating around, but I've never really met you. This is the first time I've met you. So would you mind introducing yourself a little bit? um And just I also am really curious about how you know each other. So can you include that in your intro?
00:01:48
Speaker
Okay, yeah, well, Elle, it's lovely to meet you. im Very excited. And of course, I've been following you on on emails and on social media. So, so great. ah Yeah, a little bit about myself. um i I started ah Trans Focus with Kai. We co-founded the the firm together. i had been working in queer and trans spaces in the city of Vancouver for Probably I'm going to date myself now, probably 15, almost 15, 20 years preceding trans focus. Now I feel really old thank you now
00:02:24
Speaker
And and i had I was executive director for 15 years, for for quite a long time um with Out On Screen, which produces the Vancouver Queer Film Festival.
00:02:34
Speaker
And we also developed a province-wide program focused on SOGI education called Out Schools. And you know that work with Out On Screen really led to a lot of my involvement in and you know community spaces, fostering, cultivating community spaces for 2SLTBQ+.
00:02:54
Speaker
people in communities in Vancouver. And ill maybe I'll maybe kind of leave it there in terms of my introduction. I i guess I should also share that I use the pronouns they, them, their. I became Drew in 1996 when I began my own gender journey. And at that time, I didn't use pronouns. And for the most part, that was met with relative acceptance within my within my community, amongst my family, amongst close friends, in workplaces, which is pretty fantastic when you think about it, to look back that far to 1996 and that people were able to manage not using pronouns. It didn't mean that there weren't slip-ups, but you know for the most part, there was general acceptance, even though people didn't really know.
00:03:40
Speaker
much at that time. but Dot, dot, dot.
Emergence and Support for Trans Inclusion in Vancouver
00:03:44
Speaker
That's great. And so how do you two know each other then? How did that? Oh, yeah.
00:03:50
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Thank you for that. Well, I think that's that's part of the the story a little bit about how Transfocus came to be and and what was kind of happening in in Vancouver, British Columbia before we started the firm. um I would, the city of Vancouver had struck for the first time an advisory committee that was specific to 2SLGBTQ plus communities and I was part of that inaugural committee along with lots of many amazing people that were part of that initial group.
00:04:17
Speaker
And from that, when we were looking at, you know, where's their barrier to people of the 2SLGBTQ, and we weren't using the full incron acronym at the time, I should also mention, right? This was 2009.
00:04:31
Speaker
And so I think some of some deeper understanding of those identities represented within the acronym were we' generally not as understood as others.
00:04:42
Speaker
And that really led that advisory committee to start looking at, well, okay, we're at a time where there's marriage equality for the most part, not everybody, but for the most part, there's general acceptance of sexuality around gay and lesbian people.
00:04:55
Speaker
um So where are the real barriers? And it really was, I think, recognizing that there was still much to learn for people to understand what trans and gender diverse people were experiencing and those barriers, particularly in our municipal spaces.
00:05:09
Speaker
um And that led to a real deep dive in parks and recreational spaces. And that's where Kai and I first met. Exactly. Yeah. Is that correct, Kai? I think we maybe met a little bit ahead of that, but that's where we really got to know each other.
00:05:24
Speaker
Yeah, we're we really, yeah, we're able to kind of deepen our both our friendship and working relationship. Yeah, before that was a bit without in screens. I did help with some of the evaluation work. I know and i'd like to crunch numbers and big data person. So that was always very rewarding and fulfilling to understand how, those education sessions were being received. So those are kind of the early days, but of course there was somebody like an education coordinator that I was working with primarily. So yeah, where it really deepened is this advisory that was put together. And so coming from the 2SLGBTQI advisory for the whole city, looking then specifically at recreation, There was a trans, at the time we didn't say two-spirit, but it has now so subsequently been added, and gender diverse folks. And there was about seven of us, if I remember correctly. And ah myself, ah Drew, and another person were kind of there to kind of really help guide and shape things.
00:06:31
Speaker
I was brought in, i think, Drew, we had a meeting, a coffee meeting. I think it was at Delaney's in the West End. And you're like, you know, you've got that social science research skill set that would be really valuable. And so i was like, oh, right. Yeah. Sounds like a lot of fun and really important. And I had just come out as trans. It would maybe have been a half a year or so. And I had noticed just how many gaps there were. i mean, I was dealing a lot with health care. But you just kind of anywhere you looked, I was like, holy smokes, like, I'm sure people have tried to address this, but not a lot has moved. And so i was very motivated to be involved, to help and out in any way that I could. And of course, having Drew tap my shoulder was like, you know, very inspiring. So based on the work that you've done, Drew, so yeah, I was very excited to to join.
00:07:21
Speaker
so So going from that to then Transfocus, I mean, that's quite a jump, you know, like working together and then suddenly being like, why don't we start Transfocus? Why don't we start business together? So how how did that happen? Mm-hmm.
00:07:38
Speaker
Yeah, well, I think the the work of the park board, so again, what was happening at city of Vancouver was was somewhat unique. There was definitely a lot of beginning to be trans inclusion work that was happening in pockets and other municipalities kind of across North America and Canada, US, looking at North America alone. There was definitely a lot that was starting to happen and definitely colleges and universities were were a site of location where that work was happening as well.
00:08:03
Speaker
But I think Vancouver, particularly with the With what then unfolded when the when the Vancouver Park Board decided to strike this working group, um which Kai and I were both a part of, and you're right, there was about seven or eight of us that were part of that that group.
00:08:21
Speaker
I think it was one of the first times that a municipality was really looking at it in such a holistic way and in a comprehensive way. So I think in other municipalities, there might've been a champion, um you know, in the social services area of a city, but it was city council and park board. There was elected officials, kind of unanimous support that was really, you know,
00:08:46
Speaker
opening up and demonstrating leadership to learn more and to kind of do better. And so that I think was such a unique opportunity for us. I know I really felt the responsibility, and I think we all did on the working group, of how do we best leverage this moment, leverage this this window of leadership opportunity and and ways that served our community that we could really, you know, kind of deliver some impact. and And from that, we did some community consultation. None of it was perfect, but we really delved into about a year of um community consultation on various levels. We spent time going into aquatic centers. Aquatic centers, in particular, swimming pools are a real source of tension and barriers for you know just the vulnerability
00:09:37
Speaker
you you can't access a pool without going through a change room. And those change rooms tend to be historically attended to be gendered spaces. So of we spent time um serving people in change rooms. We spent so many times, so much time in aquatic centers.
00:09:52
Speaker
um ah But that work then led to a set of 77 recommendations and the park board meeting, which is a public meeting, when those recommendations in the report was delivered and there was members of the committee, including Kai,
From Volunteer Model to Consulting Practice
00:10:11
Speaker
um and the public who had an opportunity to speak directly to park board commissioners and it was a standing room only it was packed the room was packed and i remember when the vote was called you couldn't hear a pin drop like each of the commissioners kind of around the table took a moment to speak to the report and you know preface their vote and it was unanimous vote and the whole room erupted um with
00:10:44
Speaker
with applause, there was a standing ovation, including the commissioners gave the community a standing ovation. It was just a really powerful moment. And I think for many of us as trans people, we hadn't felt that level of support before.
00:10:58
Speaker
Right, I can imagine. So it was it was kind of a really momentous occasion. And from there, the report got up a lot of attention. And then suddenly, um members of the the working group were being asked to go and speak at conferences, to speak to other municipalities. And that was really where Kai and I had a lot of those opportunities along with other folks on the on the working group. And that really, I think, led to seeing that there was actually demand and interest.
00:11:26
Speaker
There were organizations that were wanting to have more information. And I think we really learned a lot through that community consultation process. and felt that we had something to offer in their learnings.
00:11:39
Speaker
no it's ah It's so true, I just wanted to echo a few things. it's just It's kind of amazing, one, the support that you described, Drew, from political leadership, especially across the spectrum, right? So that was really powerful, and for the community to witness that. So it was very exciting times. And of course, the media was also all over this report because, you know, from local TV all the way across nationally. And so, you know, various members of the committee were you know doing these interviews. And of course, that spreads the word. There's both excitement and like, oh, we need this in our community. but also a bit of like question marks and you know kind of get trying to get clarification. So you can kind of start to see in early rumblings um even at that time. But most of it was really positive and a desire to understand further. And so there was a lot of calls for us to present at conferences or you know talk to other municipalities.
00:12:41
Speaker
One thing I do want to clarify is that this whole year long effort was purely voluntary ah for the whole committee. right This is Drew's time, my time, all the other committee members, you know significant amount of of time that we gave to this. right And of course we did it full heartedly too, right because We wanted to take care of our fellow trans and non-binary and two-spirit siblings in the city, as well as you know help with understanding more generally.
00:13:12
Speaker
Now, that said, ah volunteering going forward was not like ah very much a sustainable model. And that's where the idea of having a consulting practice was born. where there would be incoming requests, which there were, and then to be able to respond to those in a more sustainable manner, to be able to equip companies and or organizations to understand their needs and then to to deliver. So that's where the kind of consulting approach came from is, you know, the the kind of ah a lot of response to that and then trying to figure out a model that would help with that responding to it.
00:13:53
Speaker
What would you say kind of surprised you about the early
Educating Organizations on Trans and Non-Binary Issues
00:13:57
Speaker
stages? Because I'm imagining now, and this is all assumptions, so forgive me if this is not true, but I'm imagining that there really wasn't a lot of understanding in the way that maybe there is now, the kind of idea of of trans and non-binary people people generally have at at the very least heard of trans and non-binary people. And I'm imagining that, not to say that that isn't wasn't the case then, but I imagine that there was a lot less of that back back when you first started. So were there any kind of um surprising things but about the kind of early stages of that? Yeah, I mean, certainly people that were coming to us. I mean, we didn't do a lot of advertising. remember We just put something on Facebook and are like, we're open for business. And so that was kind of the official kickoff. And of course, we shared within our network more generally or more specifically as well.
00:14:45
Speaker
But essentially, a lot of the requests were just, what is this all about? It certainly helped that they had the report from the ah Vancouver Park Board. to People were like, oh, I'd never considered forms. Or, yeah, I maybe understood generally what washrooms might be a cause for concern. but I haven't thought about how to train you know staff or you know financial accessibility. So it just helped highlight a few areas that ah perhaps organizations hadn't considered and or trans and non-binary folks didn't feel safe to come forward to even talk about, because you have to kind of out yourself to talk about the issues. And so it just kind of shed a light for folks to be like, oh, we need to tackle this. um
00:15:33
Speaker
preemptively or sometimes reactively. a lot of that early period, there was a lot of trans and non-binary folks coming out at work. And so there was that impetus to be like, ooh, we need to properly include and incorporate ah these employees and they might have specific needs that we need to address. So that was really helpful and valuable that You're right, there wasn't much of an understanding. And so it's really just kind of setting the stage and giving options for organizations to proceed. Absolutely, Kai. I think that's true. there was There was less understanding. So necessarily, education had to be embedded in everything that we were doing right at that time with early clients. That was just sort of the reality of where we were. But there was another, not only was there are a lot of progressive work that was happening in the city of Vancouver, there was another really important thing that was happening at that time.
00:16:29
Speaker
And we, you're right, we hung our shingle with literally, I think it was a post on Facebook and LinkedIn. It was, um here we are. And within two weeks of that,
00:16:42
Speaker
um gender identity and gender expression became encoded within our Canadian charter rights. And we knew that. We knew that was happening. So, you know, in real estate, it's location, location, location. I think for us, for Transfocus, it was very much about timing.
00:16:58
Speaker
Timing was key. And suddenly, particularly those, you know, our phone, suddenly we, our phone was ringing off the hook. We really didn't have to do a lot of advertising or pushing our offerings on organizations, there was a lot of um a lot of calls that was coming to us. And a lot of that was HR professionals, like wondering how to be compliant. Or there was, as Kai said, more and more trans and gender non-conforming people were coming out in the workplace. And suddenly HR professionals were
00:17:30
Speaker
how do I deal with this? What do I do? Panicking. And panicking. and and But smart enough to realize that they needed help, right? like that was i think that was a turning point, that people were were at a place where they recognized this was something that rather than force people down or force people into you know the kind of square peg into a round hole, that people were were realizing they needed they needed in their own role, they needed some support to support that employee and others in the workplace.
00:18:01
Speaker
So that really, i think a lot of our, some of those early client calls were for kind of a little bit of basic education and supporting employee transitions that sometimes kind of initiated work that then that generated other work in that in other areas within the organization.
00:18:21
Speaker
Given the timing of all of that then, and obviously having just come off the back of this, was it a year long, you said volunteering? Was that right? So coming off the back of that, how did you then figure out what work you would be offering? Because you could be going in so many different directions here. And I guess but it's it's with this kind of new update to the law and So there's just a lot. So how did you figure out what that would look like? um What you wanted to focus on?
00:18:52
Speaker
I'm just guessing that, yeah, you I'm imagining there was a lot of learning on the go. Oh, 100%.
00:18:58
Speaker
100% learning on the go. and You know, the the the park board, the work from the park board and those recommendations, the recommendations were kind of set across five key areas. And we use those five key areas. I think we we tweaked them a little bit because I think we even learned in the consultation process with the park board that we...
00:19:16
Speaker
didn't quite get them right maybe so so we we tweaked though and that was i know that it's different now what you're doing but that was sort of the initial that did give us a bit of a template of where to begin but I think one of the things Kai that I really appreciated about those early days I mean I had just come out of a really long time like tenure with an organization, there was something that was so freeing because i think we both really connected. We had similar values, similar work ethics, and we really connected and just said, let's be curious. Let's be open and give ourselves permission.
00:19:50
Speaker
to try different things, to see what works, to be continuously reflective and recognize, I think Kai used to say all the time, we're building the plane mid-flight. And and there was, but but that for me was so freeing, right? To be able to say, okay, we're not, we're going to let go of perfectionism.
00:20:10
Speaker
We're going do the best that we can, obviously. And, but that I think just really gave us room to be curious, to explore, to kind of lean into different things, to try different tactics and approaches, to see what was landing, what was resonating for other people.
00:20:25
Speaker
um As we kind of, you know, and we definitely used journey language at that time. Like we were, ah we're all on a journey and we're on a journey together. Right. So how do we meet each other in that journey, wherever we are?
00:20:36
Speaker
Yeah, that's so true. It's so interesting to think back at those early stages and you know having a bit of a framework but needing to continuously adapt it and so having to be flexible in that regard and how that's you know that really served us. And we were very responsive to what we were hearing from clients. you know If things didn't quite work the the way we had set them up, of course, we could we did change them, right? You know, there's many different sectors and industries that we're handling, you know, whether, you know, hosteling, municipalities, you know, finance, ah all these are very different industries with different types of needs. And so just really listening while also giving advice.
00:21:19
Speaker
you know, best practices or at that point was just emerging practices, really. And really kind of trying to fine tune those to the organizations. And i think ah that kind of of a posture really helped with clients because they were,
00:21:38
Speaker
understandably nervous to
Collaborative Solutions and Societal Evolution
00:21:39
Speaker
begin with. But then once they kind of saw our approach, they could kind of like, like just relax a little bit and be like, we're going to figure this out together. And not everybody has the kind of corner on the the answer or answers, but we're going to find it together.
00:21:55
Speaker
And i think that really was quite powerful because then we could create something that was really meaningful and also actionable. Like we don't want to just create something for our own health. We want it to live outside on its own.
00:22:10
Speaker
And I think we were really able to achieve that quite well in the early days. That's so interesting that that kind of theme, at least from from my perspective working for Transfocus now, is that people still come with the nerves of like, oh gosh, I don't know what to do. This thing has happened a lot of the time. Maybe it's a bit reactive having something happened at work, or maybe it's that they know that they're missing something and they really want to figure it out. And it comes with a lot of nerves. And then you really do...
00:22:40
Speaker
chill people out of it. And it's very much about the the journey and the process and that seems to maybe not have changed so much then. Yeah. Yeah. It still continues to this day to have a flexible and adaptive approach. I would say even in the last year or so that has really served us quite well is to be attuned and listening because things are shifting quite drastically. So, um, I don't know if that will ever really go away. And i think that was a valuable beginning and has served ongoingly as well.
00:23:13
Speaker
One of the questions I have is about the evolution of Transfocus because the where you started and where we are now, politically, socially, everything's changed. And I'm not going to ask you to dive in ah to the politics of that. But just in general, things have shifted. People have maybe are understanding more. But then they're with that, maybe more visibility has come a bit more scrutiny, perhaps. And so I'm curious about what that evolution has felt like Well, maybe I'll say, yeah, from the from the outside, well just as ah as a person, i you know I started introducing myself as somebody who
00:23:53
Speaker
really understood and celebrated myself as somebody who's non-binary came to terms came to my own understanding that I was non-binary um and I wasn't using non-binary the term I was using I think at the time was genderqueer in 1996 and that was when um that's when I became drew and and didn't use pronouns and there was a time then where you know, people that were close in and my circle, we often kind and i would often talk about this, particularly with other trans people. If we were supporting an an employee, for instance, who was transitioning the workplace, like you can't have everybody understand you, like you would, it would, it would be too time consuming and too much energy would go into that. But the important that are people in that, that bullseye who are close to you, it's important, right. To have that.
00:24:41
Speaker
And So I think that was a time when there was so much explanation and personal explanation and almost demands for people to, they needed to understand or I needed to develop delve a lot of personal information for them to understand.
00:24:57
Speaker
And it was really nice, even in in my time with Transfocus in those first three years, to see that shift within three years, to see that shift when we were doing employee transition.
00:25:09
Speaker
And we'd go in and do a session with maybe colleagues that were part of that transitioning employees department. And we'd ask the question, okay, this person's going to come in. What do you need to know about them? And they said, okay,
00:25:22
Speaker
oh, I need to know their name and what pronoun they're using. Like they got there. They got even then that they didn't need all the backstory of, or the um and so, you know, that to to say that, I think that is a piece that's really shifted that I've noticed in my own lived experience navigating the world.
00:25:42
Speaker
Um, that has really shifted. It's in many ways, I have the privilege of saying in some ways, it's a non-issue. Do I get misgendered? Yes. Not constantly, but still, yes, that happens regularly.
00:25:53
Speaker
And, um you know, that's tiresome. I wish it didn't happen. But at the very least now, people understand about pronouns. They understand like what non-binary trends, most people do. They have some general touch point that they can point to.
00:26:06
Speaker
And more and more, particularly people with children in their lives or part of their, whether it's part of their church community, part of their school community, part of their whatever kind of community they're part of, there's kids, then they know trans people because i think that's what I see. It happens a lot within parents, right? It's becoming more and more common or even grandparents for that matter.
00:26:26
Speaker
But that said, and you know, this has always happened. It happened. I think it's happened with, and when you look at social justice movements, when you look at human rights movements, there's always progression and then there will be forces pushing back against that progression. And i think we're at that
Advocacy in the Face of Challenges
00:26:43
Speaker
time now. um A group that i'm involved with here in my local community, I'm no longer living in Vancouver, but we just presented a ah film with the with the United Church in our in our community. And it's a film called Mama Bears coming out of the US. And it's parents of faith communities who are advocating for their trans or are queer kids.
00:27:07
Speaker
and watching that film which was recent that film was just made in the last three or four years and seeing the impact of trans youth some of the the kids that in texas who are suddenly being outed right who are being forced to use the bathroom that is not the right bathroom for them like so we're in this constant like yes it's getting better but there's always i think the message i think for many of us is we always have to be continue that work, continue to show up, um continue to have conversations. And I think I have a ah lot of faith and optimism that despite
00:27:44
Speaker
Dr. Sometimes the noise and what's happening on the political stage, there is always organizations and people that are just quietly steadfastly doing the work of inclusion.
00:27:54
Speaker
And you know and that's thanks to Kai and Ellen and your team at trans focus that you're there as a resource for those organizations wanting to really continue to support their trans and gender inclusion efforts.
00:28:08
Speaker
So true. Oh my gosh. Well, thank you for for sharing that. That's so important to kind of remember kind of where we've come from, what's happened and you know where we're headed. And certainly it's interesting from my perspective as Trans Focus has evolved. I mean, I have my own personal stories around it in terms of how I've observed it personally, but I actually saw a lot of this interestingly enough, in survey data, well before it kind of hit the news, which was interesting. it was like almost a canary in the mine situation. where i was like, where is all this like kind of vitriol coming from? People when they're speaking anonymously can sometimes be
00:28:51
Speaker
more forthcoming than in other platforms. um And I just saw people really struggling with gender diversity. And at Transfocus, we survey um trans and cis folk because we want to understand what's happening in the hearts and minds of cisgender folks as well. you know Understand when they're struggling and ah also understand what their needs are to better support trans and non-binary folks. But there was one survey in particular where it just we had hundreds of responses. And I was just reading through these and just like, I was really struck by how harsh and in some cases hateful they were. And it really...
00:29:34
Speaker
jarred me. um And then much, you know, in a few, like a year or so down the road, that's when you saw it more in the news and on social media. And so it kind of hit before it splashed over into the public domain.
00:29:49
Speaker
And I didn't know what to do with it, except continue the work that we're doing. And certainly have continued resolve to resolve to support in any way that we can. But it was disconcerting to see that kind of pop up and then, yeah, now be ye out there. um Now that said, i I think it's important to kind of as a moment of like realization, we need to reset the conversation essentially. uh realizing this is where people are stuck you know and there's like a handful of topics that i could rattle off but for another episode and so like now we're really keying in on those and really leaning into them rather than running away from them and i think that's really important and that's a kind of ah a bit of a shift although not necessarily that big because of course
00:30:49
Speaker
We have a very solid foundation that we have established over 10 years. But I would say that's the thing where it's like, okay, this is um a concern. And, you know, we can we can figure it out together.
00:31:01
Speaker
um Maybe not everybody, but the majority of folks for sure. And so that's where I would kind of, broadly speaking, the evolution has kind of brought us. I'm really curious because you've you've both spoken about this learning on the fly and and having a lot of openness and curiosity and just sort of taking things as they come and working
Personal Growth and Inspirational Leadership
00:31:23
Speaker
with what you have. And and i I find that so fascinating because it must have a level of... um It must be a bit scary as well. Maybe that's just me projecting because I'm a nervous nervous Nancy. But just sort of walking into a space and not necessarily knowing what you're going to get until you're there. and And I'm really fascinated to know how this is...
00:31:44
Speaker
um shaped you as individuals and and how working for Transfocus and looking at this work um yeah how that's changed you if it has changed you well ah yeah absolutely I think yeah that changed me it was uh I think one of the things I had this aha moment I remember sharing with you early on Kai like probably within our within our first year And you know i had I had mentioned I'd had worked and I'd spent all these years working in queer and trans spaces.
00:32:21
Speaker
But I really shied away from bringing my own lived experience to that work. And I think often because I was working for an organization, I felt like I had to uphold the voice of the organization, not it wasn't about Drew Dennis, it was about community.
00:32:36
Speaker
And I think in that early work with Trans Focus, first of all, it was uncomfortable as all heck at times because suddenly i had to bring that part of me into the work, right? I had to get more comfortable sharing some of those stories that I loathed having to stay share with people early on. um and But finding ways that I could do that, that felt like I was divulging the right amount of information, right? What was really helpful and and finding my comfort and confidence and in doing that. But through that process, you know, I had thought my skills were
00:33:16
Speaker
You know, I was good at being able to convene people around a cause or I was good at budgeting or i was good at these things. What I realized was my gift, my skill was my experience as being a non-binary person living in this world. That was my gift. And I think that was sort of a key moment early in the work with Transfocus that really...
00:33:35
Speaker
helped me to understand that. And the other skill sets were just my tools in the toolkit to help share that gift with others. And think that was for me was a really powerful moment. And I think something that was really a key change point, I think, in my life and and how i how I show up in the world.
00:33:53
Speaker
Oh my gosh, that's so beautiful. I'm tearing up. I'm going to cry now. We've got tissues. But yeah, it's so important because even in the early days,
00:34:08
Speaker
A lot of folks could understand trans men and women to some extent, I mean, somewhat limited, but still they could wrap their head around the binary, but where people really struggled and continue to do so, unfortunately, um is the people beyond the binary. And so, really wanting to understand. And so the gift of, you know, there's a, there's a giving of the gift of your experience that you drew that really kind of unlocked things for so many people. I got to witness kind of frontline, whether we were co-facilitating or meeting a client for the first time where they're just like, you know, deer in headlights, ah ah you know, kind of scared and then realizing, oh, okay, this is
00:34:54
Speaker
way more easy than I thought. And i can't actually do this, right? Like, be respectful of pronouns, or, you know, whatever the the kind of practical is, and could see humanity, right? Because that's often missing in a lot of these conversations is like,
00:35:11
Speaker
We're talking about humans, you know, all of us here in this ah virtual room and and beyond. And so that's so important for people to remain anchored in the humanity of ah trans, non-binary, and two-spirit experiences. And so I'm just, yeah. And it's interesting because I also struggled with sharing my own story um at the beginning and you know found few pieces that I felt comfortable. you know that Some pieces are just for ourselves or people who are close to us, but there are pieces we can share more broadly. And to your point, Elle, about kind of feeling kind of out of, it's kind of a bit scary to be in this more open, you know trying to figure it out as you go posture.
00:35:56
Speaker
ah But it's interesting because ah growing up, I had a lot of uncertainty. I grew up in many different countries. It kind of moved every year of my life on average for the first 30 or so years. And so i just...
00:36:12
Speaker
I'm familiar with not knowing and trying to figure things out on the fly. And so just kind of leveraging that to be like, this this is not just another example of that and being able to you know work with people to to come to that understanding. So, and I think people really value that because You know, i they do want people to know what's, what's recommended or what to do. ah but they also realize that they need to be a part of the co-creative process as well, or they realize that kind of, kind of midway through sometimes too. So yeah, it's really cool that way. But yeah, there's some of the reflections.
00:36:51
Speaker
m that's really cool i really love that and so true I didn't think about that how you're moving around probably led you to be very well equipped for this Kai is the calmest person I've ever met in my life as somebody who is outrageously anxious over nothing Kai is like the most chill I feel like you're permanently on a sofa just chilling it's a it's a really cool thing to be around so that makes sense um I guess to wrap up then the last question I have for you and of course you can always share more if you have other things you want to say but the last question I have is now that Transfocus is 10 years old what are you most proud of when you look back at the whole thing what would you say is are your top things that you're proud of?
00:37:34
Speaker
maybe i'll Maybe I'll start, Kai, because I think this this is really important for you, I think, being that you so wonderfully continue TransFocus to this day. And I'm just so, so grateful to you for that work that you're doing and and proud for what you've accomplished as well. But I think for me, and thank you for the invitation to to join me on this podcast, because it really And it really was this opportunity to kind of think back to those early days. And I think what I'm there's so many moments and things to be proud of or excited about or you know grateful for those opportunities. But I think I'm most proud of that we took the plunge, that we did it. Yep.
00:38:13
Speaker
that we took that leap of faith and and that moment by the way Elle happened sitting on a couch with Kai and he was very calm so chill so relaxed and I remember being really nervous to ask Kai like do you think this is something we could do so I'm yeah i'm I'm just really proud that we took the the plunge and so grateful and and proud for you that you that you're continuing it that you and the and now on the Transfocus team are still going strong ah Thank you so much for for saying that. That means a lot because I think I agree with you 100% that just going for it is, you know, you can try to be like, is this the right time? you can kind of second guess oneself. ah And, you know, do we have ah do we have the proper tools and,
00:39:00
Speaker
you know, are we the people to do, know, on and on and on. But I just, it was like this real pivotal moment in both of our ah careers. I mean, you talked about yours, Drew. I was just kind of seeing, reading the tea leaves ah within the mining work that I was doing and becoming increasingly uncomfortable with, you know, working with Indigenous groups and with mining companies. It just, There was a bit of a tension there and then realizing there was this huge other opportunity with the trans inclusion work where I can speak directly from lived experience along with other, you know, across the spectrum of gender identities. And so i was like, oh, this is amazing. And we had done just done all this work. So it wasn't kind of free floating, you know, so there was an anchor point. And so I was, yeah, I'm also really proud that we just did it. And also that we did it with like humor and not just this flexibility and openness, but like we can have fun with it too, right? Like we took trips, like we went to DC and we went to, you know, parts of California and throughout BC and And we're just able to look at things on the ground and be be able to talk to folks, whether it's, you know, washrooms or policy or whatnot, and really get a ah good sense of what's happening so that we could be very thoughtful in what we suggested or how we provided education or whatever the the the service we were delivering. And those early connections with you know very thoughtful, very passionate leaders just really was like filled my cup tremendously. And of course, it was fun to travel with you, Drew, to have those experiences and just be like, there's just kind of this world of possibility that felt very kind of poignant and like we we knew we were kind of on the precipice of something big. And we just didn't quite have a picture yet, but we're we're part of it, along with so many others, obviously. But yeah, it was a really kind of very special magical moment that yeah will will forever be in my heart. And, you know, of course, it continues. the magic is always there. But um something about especially the work we had already done, Drew and and myself as part of the committee, that just ah really helped create a confident launching point. So, yeah.
00:41:28
Speaker
Those are some of the thoughts that I have. Yeah. And there were so many moments, too. You're right. we were We were traveling. We were visiting different areas. We were doing work with clients in the U.S. at the time.
00:41:39
Speaker
And, you know, I think what stands out, what matters most in those early days were were those moments where we, you know, often we were cis-facetists. we were working with, whether it was a whole organization, part of an organization, the leadership team. So often that work was with cis people of an organization. But I think the the moments that that really mattered and that really stand out for me to this day is when those opportunities where we were working directly with trans and two-spirit and non-binary people and that we had those opportunities to kind of see, to learn.
00:42:16
Speaker
to really learn what mattered for people, how people were being impacted in workplaces, how that helped inform the work that we were doing. But also those opportunities when you could see the relief of a person who then suddenly was being supported in the workplace.
00:42:30
Speaker
You could see the hope that they you know that they had, that they could actually manage this, that this could that they would get the support that they needed in the workplaces. And I think that was you know that was the reason to kind of get up in the morning and keep going.
00:42:45
Speaker
for me. And yeah, and I'm so glad that that continues to happen, right? That that's, that TransFocus is continuing to have that, that opportunity of impact for so many people. Oh my goodness, that's so lovely. What what a note to end on.
00:43:00
Speaker
Thank you so much for for joining us, Drew. And um thank you both of you for talking over this. The last 10 years of Trans Workers is so exciting. And i I am personally delighted to be working for Trans Workers, but it's just really exciting to see the impact that it had at the beginning and that it's continuing to have now. So I'm so grateful to both of you for taking that leap too. Yeah, it was lovely to talk to you all. Yeah, lovely to have a conversation.
00:43:23
Speaker
Thanks for inviting me. Bye for