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Episode 15 - The Master Series: The Shakers & Their Amazing Furniture
1.3k Plays4 months ago
In the Masters Series, we review MAJOR INFLUENCES on American Furniture. Together, we seek to understand their story, belief systems, and guiding philosophies, as a way to understand the objects they made, which are still extremely well know and popular today. The Shakers are SO MUCH more than just simple furniture. Did you know they pursued artistic and craft perfection as a way to honor god? Did you know they believed in equality of the genders and races at a time of extreme sexism and racism in the 1700's and 1800's? Did you know a Shaker woman is credited with INVENTING the circular saw? Did you know the shakers EMBRACED TECHNOLOGY and sold their wares, being regarded as the finest money could buy? There is a fascinating and fabulous story within this episode and if you listen to it, you will never see shaker furniture the same way again.
To watch the YOUTUBE VIDEO of this episode and the irreverent & somewhat unpredictable AFTERSHOW, subscribe to our Patreon: http://patreon.com/user?u=91688467
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Transcript
00:00:16
pjasper
Good evening, everyone.
00:00:18
YEEERiiiiick
ah Oh, okay.
00:00:18
pjasper
Actually, I don't know what time it is where you live.
Introduction & Series Overview
00:00:22
pjasper
Good evening, and welcome to another fine episode of Woodworking is Bullshit. I'm your host, Paul Jasper, scientist by Dave Woodworker by night, and I'm joined by my two amazing co-hosts, Eric Curtis, a full-time content creator and furniture maker, and Mary Tisai, which is not how you pronounce your last name, AI designer by day, contemporary woodworker, finally, now that your shop's set up, by night.
00:00:44
Murr
Good, good.
00:00:48
Murr
Yes.
00:00:48
YEEERiiiiick
Hell yeah.
00:00:49
pjasper
Yay.
00:00:51
Murr
do Are you planning on mispronouncing my last name every episode?
00:00:55
YEEERiiiiick
Yes.
00:00:55
pjasper
i'm I'm thinking it'll it'll continue until it gets old, but it hasn't gotten old yet.
00:00:55
Murr
Are we brainwashing our listeners?
00:00:59
YEEERiiiiick
I feel i feel like we with there's all so many variations. There's Mari, Tisai, Marie, Kota Marie.
00:01:07
pjasper
Coda Marie?
00:01:07
Murr
Yes, because Mary is such a hard name.
00:01:08
pjasper
Yeah, you had that wrong.
00:01:11
YEEERiiiiick
there Listen, there's a lot of different you know iterations of Mari.
00:01:11
pjasper
Way to go, Eric.
00:01:16
pjasper
All right. So aside from how to pronounce Mary's name and her business, uh, this is the first episode of a new concept that we decided to try was Eric's idea. Uh, it's, it's the first episode.
00:01:16
Murr
Alright.
00:01:28
YEEERiiiiick
Wow, so nervous that it's gonna fail. You're already throwing me under the bus.
00:01:32
pjasper
That's right. That's right. It was Eric's idea. So it sucks. Blame Eric.
00:01:38
YEEERiiiiick
It's gonna be great, guys. This is gonna be the best fucking episode we've done yet.
00:01:42
pjasper
So we're going to call this, it's a recurring series and we're going to call it the master series, the furniture that shaped America. And our goals with this series are honestly threefold. We want to learn about the major forms of furniture and why did they become so popular? Of course, that's, you know, I think what a lot of us are interested in, but we do want to cover their origins and philosophy as a way to understand their design language. If you don't understand the origins, the pieces themselves and why they look the way they do may not make sense. And then once we figure that out, we then want to turn to discussing and debating this as a community. Do we find this story or philosophy compelling? Would we build furniture in this style? Why or why not? Or could we actually improve or riff upon these styles of furniture?
Shaker Furniture: Origins & Ideologies
00:02:30
pjasper
So seeing as we're almost to the 4th of July,
00:02:33
pjasper
We thought that maybe we could start today with one of the most influential American furniture styles um The Shakers America So with that what we're going to do to cover the Shakers is first we're going to introduce a bit of the history of how the Shakers came to be in America a bit of their like
00:02:42
YEEERiiiiick
Hashtag Merika.
00:02:57
pjasper
religious ideology and that will actually segue into naturally why their furniture looks the way it does and ah More discussions about the furniture itself and and the style So I'd like to start with a quote from Thomas Merton The peculiar grace of a shaker chair is due to the fact that it was made by someone capable of believing That an angel might come and sit on it
00:03:28
YEEERiiiiick
Hmm Angel was my favorite party drug in college actually
00:03:29
Murr
Mmm, angel's ass, huh?
00:03:29
pjasper
Hm.
00:03:36
pjasper
Okay, so as this is a rough start, as I've implied, though, as that quote implies, the Shakers were a Christian organization that came to America, they were actually called the United Society of believers in Christ's second appearing.
00:03:37
Murr
Good, good.
00:03:55
pjasper
ah And the the phrase that is used often to represent them is hands to work and hearts to God. All right. Uh, and I, I'd like to give another quote that I thought was particularly from one of the elders of the Shaker religion that I think kind of in a nutshell tells us like where their heads at. Are you free as you are? Are you in any degree bound by your appetites, your passions, your self-will? Are you at all in bondage to the opinion of your neighbors?
00:04:28
pjasper
To the customs and notions of society, however harmful or or absurd, these do not tremble the true shaker. Eldris Anna White.
00:04:40
pjasper
Okay, so I think that right there says it's it's about like Christianity and sort of avoiding, ah you know, many of the influences of society around us in a more pure and and clean version of of Christianity. um Now, why were they called Shakers? you know They called themselves the United Society of Believers in Christ's Second Appearing. Well, they were called Shakers because of their ecstatic dancing that they would do. um They were ordinary people who gave up literally everything to be part of this religious sect. They gave up their homes, their families, their livelihoods to practice this simple version of Christianity.
00:05:23
YEEERiiiiick
I do, if if I may interrupt just to give some context to it.
00:05:23
pjasper
ah Yeah.
00:05:26
YEEERiiiiick
This is this is the the intersection of my my love and passion for furniture and my degree in religion and philosophy. ah the The Shakers were, for those of you who know anything about the the Quaker religion, they were essentially an offshoot of Quakerism. um And they were, if you will, kind of in amalgamation of
00:05:47
YEEERiiiiick
evangelicalism with Quakerism. So they took the the ideals of Quakerism, simplicity, um oneness with God, and separation to an extent, and combine that with, I don't want to use the word outlandish, but it's the only word coming to mind right now, very vibrant worship practices. And that's where that name Quaker or Shaker comes from, as they were originally known as the the Shaking Quakers.
00:06:12
Murr
So it wasn't a similarity of the two of enjoying natural... ah I'm trying to make some sort of joke of like it relating to earthquakes, because there's earthquakes that shake.
00:06:21
YEEERiiiiick
I don't know where this good just joke is going.
00:06:28
Murr
I don't know what's happening, but I'm just saying, there's a relation there.
00:06:31
YEEERiiiiick
this Hey, you nailed that one. That was so funny. It was so good.
00:06:37
Murr
God damn it.
00:06:41
pjasper
All right, so...
00:06:41
YEEERiiiiick
All right, back to it.
00:06:41
Murr
I'm the person who doesn't know anything about it, so I'm just saying.
00:06:45
YEEERiiiiick
Here for it.
00:06:45
pjasper
All right. So coming back to the history, now that Mary's joke
Ann Lee & Shaker Beliefs
00:06:49
pjasper
bombed. ah
00:06:53
pjasper
So Shakerism was founded by a woman, Ann Lee. So she was born in Manchester, England, to a family too poor to afford her any and yeah education. She was illiterate her entire life. ah She worked at a cotton factory and at the age of 20, she shifted to a cook in an infirmary for the insane asylum. um At 22, she joined a Quaker sect, which is like what Eric said, a group um of religious, ah like a a religious offshoot of Quakers, a small group, and they were called the Shaking Quakers, um due to their similarities to the Quaker faith, but they also practiced cleansing of sin through chanting and dancing. And they believed that the second coming of Christ was gonna happen soon, and God would return return in the form of a woman. And they believed this Ann Lee was this woman.
00:07:43
pjasper
And later they received her and they would call her mother due to this belief. She taught her followers that it's possible to obtain perfect holiness by giving up sexual relations because she believed sex was the greatest sin of Adam and Eve.
00:08:02
pjasper
And like her predecessors,
00:08:02
YEEERiiiiick
She believed that was the original sin.
00:08:03
Murr
Ha- How did they reproduce?
00:08:07
pjasper
ah Well, they didn't. um they The Quakers were were jumping the gun here, but the Quakers, weren't it wasn't about reproducing within their culture. They would get members just through joining and conversion and adoption of um orphans who needed it. And those orphans, if they were brought up in the shaker religion, they could absolutely 100% leave when they like became adults. Like this was not from what I can, and Eric, you can speak to this. This was not a seedy kind of gross, you know, tendrils, you know, take the children. It was actually more upfront and honest than I expected. It was more like, come as you will, we'll take you in.
00:08:53
pjasper
And if you would like to leave, please leave. And we do not discourage people who want to have children because how else are we going to have future shakers? It's just not our path. We think by having a vow of celibacy, we'll be closer to God.
00:09:11
YEEERiiiiick
it's it's
00:09:12
Murr
Thank
00:09:13
YEEERiiiiick
and the The point of this podcast is not to dissect the theological you know ah foundational beliefs of the Shakers.
00:09:18
Murr
you.
00:09:20
YEEERiiiiick
It's really interesting stuff for those of you who are into um you know theological yeah ideations. but it's it's Yes, they didn't, to my understanding, dissuade other people from having children. They did believe that sex was the original sin. They were celibate their entire life. And this is why the Shakers did die out eventually. And there is, there is one singular remaining Shaker community.
00:09:42
pjasper
Actually, Eric, wait, I have some, I have an update to that.
00:09:46
YEEERiiiiick
Yes, that's true.
00:09:46
pjasper
I have an update to that.
00:09:48
pjasper
I'm not sure that's why they died out. But okay, so what happened next? Okay, so Ann Lee became ah being persecuted in England and thrown in jail often. And they she eventually decided her and her little group of Quakers, shaking Quakers, we got to get the hell out of here. So of course, just like every ah every other religious sect, they've sailed to America.
00:09:48
YEEERiiiiick
Okay.
00:10:07
YEEERiiiiick
Hehehehe.
00:10:10
pjasper
So they sailed to America in 1774, right before the American Revolution. And as part of spreading her new word, she would travel on mission tours across New England, but was often met with fierce resistance in the form of angry mobs to her story. Like, who is this woman? Why is she trying to tell us that you know there's this new form of Christianity we should follow? And many angry mobs attacked her. For instance, in Shirley, Massachusetts, which is not that far from me, I almost bought a house there.
00:10:43
pjasper
ah She was attacked by an angry mob because she converted a wife, stealing her away from her husband.
00:10:48
pjasper
The wife wanted to join the Shakers. And then later on in Petersham, Massachusetts, a crowd dragged her from the horse, threw her into a sleigh, tore her clothes off to see if she was actually a woman, and almost beat her to death.
00:10:49
Murr
Ooh.
00:11:02
pjasper
And to that, yeah, and to that, they reacted with nothing but pacifism.
00:11:02
Murr
What?
00:11:09
pjasper
They were savagely abused and they were put in prison. And shortly, about two years later, after she was, ah you know, can came back from the beating prison and what have you, she died.
00:11:09
YEEERiiiiick
Yeah, that's the Quaker side of the theology, yeah.
00:11:27
pjasper
Now, she was in America all of all of about 10 years total, you know?
00:11:27
Murr
Oh god.
00:11:32
Murr
How- how old was she when she died? Do you know?
00:11:34
pjasper
48.
00:11:36
Murr
Ooh. Okay.
00:11:37
pjasper
10 years in America, spreading the word of her new idea about this new Christian faith, and she's dead. However, funny enough, that was 1784. funny enough, over the next 60 years, the popularity of the Shakers grew and grew and grew until it reached its maximum in about 1850, where they had 6,000 members scattered among about 24 settlements around New England and even as far west as as the Midwest. So they the elders upon her death, the elders like put rules down and tried to continue you know the Shaker faith to grow it even further.
00:12:20
pjasper
Um, okay. So that's more or less with the story of the shakers in a nutshell.
00:12:27
pjasper
It is.
00:12:27
YEEERiiiiick
It's so hard not to dive into like their belief in Trinitarianism and how they feel about Mother Anne and everything else, but but we don't need to get into that to understand their belief in furniture philosophy.
00:12:31
pjasper
Okay. Now.
00:12:35
pjasper
Okay. But what? What I want to get to is some of the the ideals that they had that that relate to furniture. okay So first of all, they challenged almost every ideal of American society during their time here. They believed that in community ownership, pacifism, dancing and worship equality of the sexes when there was none, equality of the races when there was none. They even took in a black man during ah their time here in America before racism was abolished and they they got beaten savagely again for taking in a black man and making him an equal among them.
00:13:07
Murr
Wow.
00:13:08
YEEERiiiiick
Slavery.
00:13:10
Murr
Wow.
00:13:16
pjasper
ah They believed that um
00:13:22
pjasper
they believed that ah sorry i wanted i wanted to to to go down to They believe that every act of work was in reverence to God. They aimed for absolute perfection in everything they did as a sign of their religious devotion. So it didn't matter if you were making chairs or feeding the ducks. Everything you do could be done to perfection as a form of worship. so Work was worship with the Shakers and and an act of piety. It was the practical side of religion. It provided a specific daily opportunity to serve God in every action they did. And they cared very much for what they did. The the daily laborers aimed not for products or profits, but for perfection in what they did because that perfection, as I said, was like a gift to God.
00:14:14
pjasper
And so all labor was consecrated and even the most menial tasks were dignified towards the service of God. So take let' like let's take that for a minute. like I think right there you can see how well done their furniture is if you've seen Shaker furniture.
00:14:33
YEEERiiiiick
Do we want to dive into that right now?
00:14:36
pjasper
um I mean, why don't we why don't we yeah why don't we start with that and we can come back to some of their innovations.
00:14:39
YEEERiiiiick
I think that's good. I think that's good. Yeah, because you know this isn't a theology podcast. And as much as I want to keep diving down that hole, we do need to bring it back to furniture design. That that striving for perfection is very evident in their craftsmanship in their design all the way down to their choice of materials.
Design & Inventions of Shaker Furniture
00:15:03
YEEERiiiiick
right There is this belief in Shaker furniture that veneering is lying. And this is a belief that comes up every 50 years or so.
00:15:11
YEEERiiiiick
like There is there's this idea that to veneer a piece is to be dishonest.
00:15:11
pjasper
Mm.
00:15:16
YEEERiiiiick
they They weren't the first and they weren't the last to believe that. But that that choice of material, I think, is a really core component of their design aesthetic. It's simple objects. form and function are equally as important, but form is minimalistic. And function is, it it leads them to make some really interesting design choices that I think now we look back on as like, oh, well, this is. This is classic furniture. This is classic Americana. Let's take the the shaker peg or the shaker drawer pole, for example, that kind of domed top that swoops down underneath. It's a very simple turned peg. And you see this all over shaker furniture. You see it up on the wall where they could hang their chairs to make sure that the house is tidy and sweep underneath.
00:16:04
YEEERiiiiick
but this has become so prevalent. like We don't even think about it as shaker pegs anymore. They're just, that's the shape of a peg. Or one of my personal favorites is because of their their practical mindset, um the if you ever look at sewing tables that they made, often, not always, but often, you have the drawers on the left hand or the right hand side, depending on whether that person was lefty or righty. where the sewing machine machine would sit. And then to one side, there's usually one drawer or maybe two drawers just on the side of the table.
00:16:37
YEEERiiiiick
which makes no sense. has There's no reason to put a drawer there, except for the fact that you need a place to put all like your thimbles and whatnot. And so rather than bending down to a drawer on your right hand side, you can just put one on the left hand side of the thing and just pop it out and then pop it on the machine. And it's these things that you see and then you see like Garrett Hack do that in a piece and you're like, oh my God, that's so clever. How did he ever think? Well, he looked at a sewing machine table from the Quakers and he went, that's cool, I'm gonna do that. It's just interesting how those design choices then become replicated through history.
00:17:05
pjasper
yeah
00:17:11
YEEERiiiiick
And then we see them as contemporary ideals when they have a basis 150 years ago.
00:17:14
pjasper
so So regarding their design choices, Eric, my research said that it was really about making their daily life and daily tasks easier and more efficient. They weren't like the Amish where they shunned technology or or electricity.
00:17:30
YEEERiiiiick
Sure, sure.
00:17:32
pjasper
They weren't like that kind of a group.
00:17:34
YEEERiiiiick
No, they were very clever inventors.
00:17:34
pjasper
They welcomed innovation.
00:17:36
pjasper
Yes. So maybe we could talk about just for a minute and then we'll come back to their furniture. Um, some of their innovations that they came up with. So, uh, maybe you and I, let's go back and forth.
00:17:36
YEEERiiiiick
Yeah.
00:17:48
pjasper
I'll name one and you name one and we'll see, we'll see who runs out.
00:17:48
YEEERiiiiick
Okay, you you you've got the list because I don't have the list in front of me.
00:17:52
Murr
Oh my god, I feel like I'm listening to listen to two professors here.
00:17:52
pjasper
Oh, I have the list in front of me, so I'm going to win.
00:17:52
YEEERiiiiick
Okay. Okay. All right. All right. All right. So my my favorite is the circular saw. So tabitha tabitha Tabitha something or other.
00:18:00
pjasper
Yes.
00:18:04
YEEERiiiiick
um She was fantastically brilliant. And she saw two men using a pit saw, I believe. And they she realized that 50% of each of the person's motion was being wasted, right?
00:18:12
pjasper
Yep, that's right.
00:18:18
YEEERiiiiick
the the return cut was not in use. And so she thought, well, that's stupid. We should just make something that uses a hundred percent of the motion. And she invented the circular saw. Now you think, okay, that's wild. That's the circular saw. Think of how many tools you have that use a circular rotation to make a cut, because that's 95% of your workshop. She basically invented contemporary woodworking. And it's really interesting, because then like that, but and then it comes back to the idea of egalitarianism in in, you know, shaker philosophy, this woman made things out of wood.
00:18:44
pjasper
That is that's huge.
00:18:54
YEEERiiiiick
And she went, I know a better way. And there was no hesitance to accept her idea, because it was fucking brilliant.
00:18:59
pjasper
No, I love it.
00:19:02
YEEERiiiiick
And now, you know, then we have this idea of like, well, women shouldn't woodwork. That's stupid. Well, you know what, literally a woman invented your woodworking shop.
00:19:07
Murr
Absolutely not.
00:19:10
YEEERiiiiick
So maybe let's let's get over that.
00:19:12
Murr
That's wild.
00:19:12
pjasper
You know the circular saw son of a bitch it's so good Okay, I actually know ah so they eventually came around to the idea of using rivers and and water current to turn the turbine and
00:19:15
YEEERiiiiick
The circular saw. and And hey, you know what? You take that and you turn it upside down, you nail it to the bottom of a table. Guess what you have? A table saw.
00:19:22
Murr
Wait, so how did the circular saw work in their time?
00:19:27
YEEERiiiiick
ah that Okay, go for it.
00:19:36
YEEERiiiiick
it's It's so good. They were so smart.
00:19:38
pjasper
And they reinvented the turbine to make it more efficient, just from a water wheel to an actual turbine, and that would turn belts that turned all their machines.
00:19:42
Murr
I see.
00:19:47
Murr
Ah, interesting.
00:19:48
YEEERiiiiick
so one of the most fast this for anybody listening but also mary for you one of the most fascinating places on the planet is hancock village uh in upstate new york which is not that far from you paul honestly it is the the largest shaker community and there is this barn where they have it was ah a workshop on a river and they have this
00:19:48
Murr
Okay.
00:20:11
YEEERiiiiick
belt driven system.
00:20:11
pjasper
They
00:20:12
YEEERiiiiick
So basically they have a water wheel in the river and a bunch of stationary machines that are bolted to the floor. And all of these belts running through the floors, through the walls and in the workshop.
00:20:20
pjasper
were so innovative and it was all based on what works, you know, what could save them time.
00:20:23
YEEERiiiiick
And all they had to do was to turn different levers to make different belts move. And it would turn on different machines.
00:20:30
Murr
Wow.
00:20:30
YEEERiiiiick
It's wild.
00:20:32
pjasper
they were so innovative
00:20:35
YEEERiiiiick
Yeah.
00:20:35
pjasper
and it was all based on what work
00:20:38
YEEERiiiiick
Yep.
00:20:38
pjasper
you know what could save them time
00:20:40
YEEERiiiiick
Yep. All right. So the circular saw.
00:20:41
pjasper
All right, so circular saw.
00:20:42
YEEERiiiiick
Yep.
00:20:42
pjasper
Next up, my answer, cut wire nails.
00:20:47
YEEERiiiiick
It's a good.
00:20:47
pjasper
i They're in my house.
00:20:49
YEEERiiiiick
Yep.
00:20:50
pjasper
I have cut wire nails in my house right now. I was like, they invented that? I had no idea, your turn.
00:20:57
YEEERiiiiick
All right. All right. My personal favorite is the flat broom. So before.
00:21:02
pjasper
Eric, why are you gonna take all like the best answers, dick?
00:21:06
YEEERiiiiick
So before the shakers, brooms were made of broom straw and they were round.
00:21:06
Murr
Mm.
00:21:11
YEEERiiiiick
They would just pile them up, lash them together, put them on a stick, sweep. And then the shakers went, this is stupid. If it was flat, it would be way more efficient. And so they invented a vice to flatten those straws out and then sew them together and created the modern flat broom.
00:21:25
pjasper
Which, by the way, that vise I saw, it it looks just like the vise you put a saw in when you're doing sharpening saw teeth.
00:21:30
YEEERiiiiick
yeah Yeah. Yeah.
00:21:33
pjasper
It looks just like it.
00:21:34
YEEERiiiiick
Yeah.
00:21:35
pjasper
All right, my turn.
00:21:36
YEEERiiiiick
Go for it.
00:21:37
pjasper
Closed pins.
00:21:38
YEEERiiiiick
Mm, that's a good, that's a good.
00:21:39
Murr
Ooh.
00:21:41
pjasper
They used to lash two pieces of wood together with a piece of metal back in the day, and the shakers were like, why do you gotta to do that and like use all this metal and it comes apart? Let's just make a ah cut in between two like a one piece of wood to separate the two pins.
00:21:55
YEEERiiiiick
Clever, clever.
00:21:55
Murr
What? They invented that?
00:21:56
pjasper
Yeah.
00:21:57
YEEERiiiiick
Yeah, yeah.
00:21:58
Murr
Oh my God.
00:21:59
YEEERiiiiick
All right.
00:21:59
pjasper
Eric, your turn, darling.
00:22:00
YEEERiiiiick
um
00:22:03
YEEERiiiiick
here's ah Here's a fun one I learned today, which I didn't know about. They invented, quote unquote, the tilting chair. which that was your next one.
00:22:11
pjasper
God damn it, that was my next answer, you bitch.
00:22:13
YEEERiiiiick
That's such a good one. I just learned it today.
00:22:15
Murr
ah Wait, what is that?
00:22:15
YEEERiiiiick
All right, so everybody, everybody who sat in a chair will eventually at some point tilt up on the back legs and lean back, right?
00:22:23
Murr
ah
00:22:24
YEEERiiiiick
That's what we do naturally. And so their thought was if you do that, you could either risk slipping or scratching up the floor, which would be ungodly. So they basically took ah like a ball and peg, ah not a ball, a ball and socket joint. and attach that that to the bottom back legs of the chair so that when you tilt up, the chair doesn't move, it's just rotating on that socket.
00:22:40
Murr
a
00:22:48
YEEERiiiiick
Which I'm like, that's so clever, because literally everybody does that.
00:22:51
Murr
Why don't we see that these days?
00:22:53
YEEERiiiiick
I know.
00:22:54
pjasper
Well, we do, we do. In school, in school, the kids' chairs have the rotating...
00:22:57
YEEERiiiiick
ah Ah.
00:22:57
Murr
Oh, yeah, the little pivots on the bottom. Yeah. Okay.
00:23:00
YEEERiiiiick
Ooh, that's such a good pull.
00:23:01
pjasper
that Yeah, they're metal now.
00:23:02
YEEERiiiiick
I didn't even think about that.
00:23:02
Murr
Except they're usually metal. Yeah.
00:23:04
YEEERiiiiick
Well, those legs are also canted so far back where they can't actually tilt, you know?
00:23:04
Murr
Huh.
00:23:08
Murr
Right.
00:23:09
YEEERiiiiick
Interesting. All right.
00:23:10
pjasper
Okay.
00:23:11
YEEERiiiiick
Next up.
00:23:12
pjasper
Well, you took all the popular ones, Eric.
00:23:14
YEEERiiiiick
You're welcome. You're welcome.
00:23:15
pjasper
ah Shaker pegs for hanging things around the the the room. So you know how a chair rail goes around the edge of a room? They would have a chair rail but a bit higher and would put shaker pegs and they would hang literally everything because cleanliness is close to godliness, right? They believed that there's no mess in heaven. And so cleaning was part of their daily ritual and they would hang the chairs up, hang all kinds of things up on these pegs, which would take everything off the floor so they could sweep and clean ah the floor every night.
00:23:44
YEEERiiiiick
Okay, question.
00:23:44
Murr
So smart.
00:23:45
YEEERiiiiick
i I don't actually know why a chair rail is called a chair rail. I've always assumed that it's because it's around the height of the the crest rail of a chair, but
00:23:54
pjasper
It's because if the chair, it prevents the chair from hitting and marring the wall.
00:23:59
YEEERiiiiick
Interesting. Okay. All right. That's good to know because the chair rail that you speak of, they literally hung up, we'll call it whatever five feet up off the wall so that they could literally hang the chairs on the pegs in order to sweep.
00:24:09
Murr
yep
00:24:11
YEEERiiiiick
So I was wondering if that had anything to do with that.
00:24:12
pjasper
Well, that's, that's not really a chair rail.
00:24:14
YEEERiiiiick
It's not a chair. I was too tall.
00:24:14
pjasper
That's more like a, no, it's like a peg rail essentially, but yeah.
00:24:16
YEEERiiiiick
Yeah. It's like, like coat coat rack height kind of situation. Okay. Um, let's see what else is on there. Um, another very popular item, which. They definitely invented, but I don't know how familiar everybody is with it because it's not as ubiquitous anymore, is the oval box, the the pantry box, right? So ive I think we've all seen this. It's basically a single piece of wood that's oval, and it has those, what they called, I believe, it's not dovetails, pigeon tails, something, they called it something like that.
00:24:46
pjasper
Uh, yeah.
00:24:49
YEEERiiiiick
Goose tails, I don't know some other bird tails, but it's these long triangle three usually long triangular pieces and then they would ah basically rivet them together and ah Oval boxes shaker over but oval boxes or pantry boxes and you've seen them Google them right now Yeah, exactly every any listener right now if you don't know what I'm talking about swallow.
00:24:55
pjasper
Yeah.
00:25:00
Murr
Wait, what are they called? Oh, yes, yes, yes, I have, okay.
00:25:10
pjasper
Swallow tails.
00:25:12
pjasper
They're called swallow tails.
00:25:12
YEEERiiiiick
I was so close with pigeon tails ah so Yes
00:25:16
Murr
Are they used for like hats and stuff?
00:25:18
YEEERiiiiick
No, they were they were pantry.
00:25:18
pjasper
No.
00:25:18
Murr
Or like store it?
00:25:19
YEEERiiiiick
They were pantry storage. So they would store like dry goods in there.
00:25:21
Murr
Oh, okay.
00:25:21
pjasper
Yeah, this this was an this was an improvement upon the previous iteration of boxes that existed.
00:25:27
YEEERiiiiick
Yeah, and and
00:25:27
pjasper
And the Shakers thought they could make them better.
00:25:28
Murr
Huh.
00:25:30
pjasper
They thought that an oval would actually fit contents more um well with less wasted space than the previous shapes.
00:25:37
YEEERiiiiick
Yeah. So consider, yeah, no, it's a terrible design choice.
00:25:41
Murr
Is that true?
00:25:41
YEEERiiiiick
No, it's not.
00:25:42
Murr
I don't think so.
00:25:42
pjasper
That's what they said. That's what they said.
00:25:43
YEEERiiiiick
um but But consider the fact that like most of their grains were coming in sacks, right?
00:25:45
Murr
oh
00:25:50
YEEERiiiiick
So yeah if you could store a thing in a box that you could stack that more easily, then you could stack sacks.
00:25:51
Murr
Okay, yeah.
00:25:57
Murr
Okay, that's, I guess, yeah, for like grains and stuff, but there's so much leftover space if you're putting in like solid objects.
00:25:57
YEEERiiiiick
OK.
00:26:02
YEEERiiiiick
Listen, listen.
00:26:04
pjasper
Well, it depends if they're square or not, to be fair.
00:26:07
Murr
That's true. That's true. How are these like, I'm looking at photos, were they like, just veneer, essentially that they?
00:26:13
YEEERiiiiick
They were steam bent. Yeah.
00:26:13
pjasper
Okay, so so there there are 16th of an inch thick um and they're steam bent and then they're riveted together.
00:26:14
YEEERiiiiick
Yeah.
00:26:14
Murr
Okay.
00:26:14
YEEERiiiiick
They were thick veneer.
00:26:18
Murr
Okay.
00:26:20
YEEERiiiiick
Yeah.
00:26:22
Murr
Yeah.
00:26:22
pjasper
And then after that is steam bent and riveted, the oval, then you trace that to the bottom and then you fit a bottom afterwards because the steam bending is so...
00:26:22
YEEERiiiiick
Yeah.
00:26:28
YEEERiiiiick
Yeah.
00:26:28
Murr
Hmm.
00:26:28
YEEERiiiiick
But what's what's fascinating. What's fascinating to me about these objects in particular is like, this is a thing that you can make so utilitarian, right? There, it could be so, there's no reason to do those, those swallowtails. There's no reason to rivet them that like, there's so many choices that they made that took a functional object and elevated it to. I don't quite know what it is because I'm trying to get in the mindset of like their their religious ideology.
00:26:58
YEEERiiiiick
But it's they took an everyday object that most people would overlook and they tried to make the thing as close to perfect as they possibly could.
00:27:05
pjasper
ah per They perfected things, yeah.
00:27:08
YEEERiiiiick
And that's and all of all of the troubling philosophies aside, like that is one of those things that resonates, I think, with us, with probably our listeners of there is this thing that should be better and we can go do that better you know, profit be damned. It's an interesting mindset.
00:27:25
pjasper
Okay, so Eric, I have some interesting ah factoids about Shaker oval boxes, because that's probably what most everyone's familiar with.
00:27:31
YEEERiiiiick
Okay.
00:27:33
pjasper
Number one, um well, they made a lot of them, they started making them around 1799.
00:27:39
YEEERiiiiick
Hmm.
00:27:39
pjasper
So the eight beginning of the 19th century 1800. And they made them through the 1800s. And for example, um just from New Lebanon, Connecticut alone, which was one of the Shaker villages, they made 77,000 boxes.
00:27:57
YEEERiiiiick
So this is what's interesting to me about about the Shaker community is like we think of that time period as everything was handmade.
00:27:57
pjasper
by hand.
00:28:05
YEEERiiiiick
And sure it was because hands were on it at all times. but they, they were masters of production. And so this comes back to if, if I could marry for a second, what your definition of handmade is because, because it is a real question to, to like contend with here, because they were making objects by hand, but they were using production techniques.
00:28:13
pjasper
yeah
00:28:19
Murr
ha
00:28:30
YEEERiiiiick
And just because they didn't have a CNC, does it mean that it was handmade?
00:28:30
pjasper
Yeah.
00:28:35
YEEERiiiiick
Like where, where do you draw the line? Because we're not there yet.
00:28:36
pjasper
All right, we're not.
00:28:37
Murr
By production techniques, do you mean like using jigs and everything?
00:28:41
pjasper
Yeah, sure.
00:28:41
YEEERiiiiick
Yeah, they they were mass producing, 77,000 boxes, they were mass producing these.
00:28:42
Murr
Yeah.
Shaker Mass Production & Influence
00:28:46
pjasper
Yeah. and And that's how they survived.
00:28:48
pjasper
They paid taxes, by the way. They paid their taxes. They weren't like you know um you know trying to skirt taxes or skirt their contribution to society. And the surplus that they didn't need, they sold.
00:28:48
YEEERiiiiick
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:29:00
YEEERiiiiick
Yeah.
00:29:01
pjasper
and That came in the form of furniture and also just as a very interesting thing, seeds, vegetable seeds.
00:29:06
YEEERiiiiick
Mm.
00:29:07
pjasper
They were the first in America to sell vegetable seeds in in paper packaging that they would print themselves and they got orders in the millions because the Shakers were so honest and so upfront that the name Shaker became synonymous with quality.
00:29:13
YEEERiiiiick
It's fascinating.
00:29:28
pjasper
Good for them. That was pretty impressive.
00:29:29
YEEERiiiiick
It's interesting.
00:29:31
YEEERiiiiick
It's interesting.
00:29:31
pjasper
ah Speaking of speaking of, um you know, quantity and and production in 1872. I'm going to ask you a question.
00:29:41
YEEERiiiiick
Okay, all right, trivia time.
00:29:42
pjasper
it let You have you have 10 workers. 10 workers in a factory, a Shaker mill, let's say, and set in 10 workers. how many chairs How many Shaker ladderback chairs could they produce per day? Now, think about how difficult... Now, I'm i'm not setting you up for some gigantic number because it's not. But think about how long it would take you to make a chair with like properly turned legs and all the, the you know, the rungs and the chair back and the seat and how many 10 people, how many chairs could they make in a day?
00:30:09
YEEERiiiiick
Okay.
00:30:16
YEEERiiiiick
Well, let's, let's, a few things, a few things off the job. I don't think we mentioned that the Shakers invented the ladder back chair yet. I don't think we've said that this episode, have we?
00:30:23
pjasper
Okay.
00:30:26
pjasper
Well, did they invent it or did they popularize it?
00:30:28
YEEERiiiiick
um and i Well, that's a fair question.
00:30:30
pjasper
I'm not sure they invented it because I've seen, I've seen ladderback chairs from the Jacobian period in England, far before the Shakers.
00:30:31
YEEERiiiiick
i'm I'm not sure they invented it.
00:30:35
YEEERiiiiick
Okay. Okay. Fair. Fair. That's fair.
00:30:37
pjasper
But the Shaker ladderback chair is a thing is like an established.
00:30:39
YEEERiiiiick
Is it is a specific style of ladderback chair?
00:30:42
pjasper
Correct.
00:30:42
pjasper
Correct.
00:30:43
YEEERiiiiick
Okay. So they did have a style that they produced in mass that we identify as the shaker ladderback chair.
00:30:47
pjasper
Yes. And they used a cord for the seat, like Shaker cord or something like that.
00:30:52
YEEERiiiiick
Yeah. sta Yeah. Similar to Danish cord.
00:30:54
Murr
like Canning kind of.
00:30:55
pjasper
Yeah.
00:30:56
YEEERiiiiick
Yeah. It's very similar to caning.
00:30:57
pjasper
All right.
00:30:57
YEEERiiiiick
Um, all right.
00:30:58
pjasper
So how many chairs could, no, no, no, no.
00:30:58
Murr
5,000.
00:30:58
YEEERiiiiick
So, so 10. Jesus Christ, this girl, she can.
00:31:01
pjasper
I told you it wasn't like.
00:31:05
YEEERiiiiick
All right, 10 workers in a factory. I'm assuming this is by the time it's up and running and like, you know, parts are being pre-produced the days before.
00:31:13
pjasper
Yeah.
00:31:14
YEEERiiiiick
I'm gonna say, I don't know, 25.
00:31:15
pjasper
Yes. Eric 24.
00:31:19
YEEERiiiiick
Nailed it, nailed it.
00:31:21
Murr
I was going to guess 22.
00:31:22
pjasper
Holy shit. shit.
00:31:22
YEEERiiiiick
It's almost like I work in this industry.
00:31:25
pjasper
Eric, how did you do that?
00:31:29
YEEERiiiiick
That was a guess. That feels right.
00:31:30
pjasper
That's amazing.
00:31:31
YEEERiiiiick
That feels right.
00:31:32
pjasper
Yeah, in in one year alone, in 1884, they made 3,000 chairs in one of their factories.
00:31:38
YEEERiiiiick
I just, for for context, for context, for people who have never made a chair, if somebody commissioned me to make eight chairs for them, that's probably four months of work.
00:31:38
pjasper
So they were putting out a good number of, they were putting out a good number of stuff.
00:31:50
YEEERiiiiick
Realistically.
00:31:54
YEEERiiiiick
No, nobody, nobody disagrees with that.
00:31:55
pjasper
Oh, I agree.
00:31:56
YEEERiiiiick
say Yeah.
00:31:56
pjasper
Oh, I agree.
00:31:57
YEEERiiiiick
Like that's.
00:31:57
Murr
yeah
00:31:57
pjasper
And that's why I don't know that that's why I don't make chairs because they're too difficult.
00:32:00
YEEERiiiiick
Yeah. Yeah.
00:32:01
pjasper
Yeah.
00:32:02
Murr
I did two chairs and I will not make them again.
00:32:02
YEEERiiiiick
Also, also, yeah, not for nothing.
00:32:02
pjasper
Yeah.
00:32:04
Murr
and
00:32:06
YEEERiiiiick
Um, the production of seating and the ergonomics of chair making are different.
00:32:09
pjasper
Yeah.
00:32:11
YEEERiiiiick
And if you've ever sat in a shaker chair, they're not very comfortable. The, the seat backs, cause the seat backs are at 90 degrees to the seat.
00:32:16
Murr
Why?
00:32:19
Murr
Oh god.
00:32:19
YEEERiiiiick
And yeah, exactly. So the very.
00:32:21
pjasper
Yeah, but the point wasn't to be comfortable, right?
00:32:24
YEEERiiiiick
No, the point the point was to function.
00:32:24
pjasper
It's to worship and be... ah
00:32:26
YEEERiiiiick
And one thing that they did do really well was low back chairs, which are a whole different ballgame. um But for those of you who don't aren't familiar with the ergonomic problems of chairmaking the chair the chair back for a dining chair tends to be at about 95 to 105 degrees from the seat. And if that's at 90 degrees, think of like an old English throne. It's not comfortable because you are forced to sit directly straight up, which nobody sits that way. So your butt then naturally slides and you're starting to sloop in a chair and it's, it's not a pleasant experience.
00:32:59
YEEERiiiiick
So sitting in a shaker chair is basically you feel like you're, I mean, for lack of a better analogy, being forced to sit directly straight up at church on Sunday. And you're just like, Oh yeah.
00:33:10
pjasper
Well, so one of the one of the quotes that really stuck with me about how the Shakers produced their furniture and produced everything they did in terms of work was, do all your work as if you had a thousand years to live. and as you would if you knew you must die tomorrow.
00:33:30
Murr
Oh my god.
00:33:32
pjasper
So, you know, do it with to your absolute perfection as if as if time is no, like forget time. Don't worry about time. Don't rush, but have a sense of urgency at the same time. Like don't cut corners, but have a sense of urgency.
00:33:48
YEEERiiiiick
Hmm.
00:33:48
pjasper
And I think they're trying to balance those two ideals.
00:33:51
Murr
Those are kind of extremes.
00:33:52
YEEERiiiiick
That's a Well, but I mean, we're also talking about religious foundational beliefs, which are, you know, like that they are extremes.
00:34:01
Murr
Yeah, I guess that's fair.
00:34:02
pjasper
Okay, so so so question, Eric, Mary. you know Now that we've covered you know why they came to America, what their goal was to be closer to Christ and that work was a form of worship towards perfection. If you could do your work to perfection, it was a gift to God. It was your way to to worship, honestly. And now you look at their pieces and their pieces are as as a functional and pared down because they also thought ornament was a distraction away from God, right? So there's no ornament. It's totally pared down to true, like the truest form of the thing, whatever the thing is.
00:34:46
pjasper
Um, and they did it with the utmost precision and perfection using whatever tools they could, you know, get, they weren't a versa technology. Okay. So given that that's the background of the shakers, you know, what have we learned from them? And what do you think that influence has done in American furniture design since the time of the shakers?
00:35:13
YEEERiiiiick
I'm going to let you answer that because I have too many things to say.
00:35:17
Murr
I probably don't have enough to say. I mean, the question of form follows function is something that's repeated through lots of different styles, both in furniture, architecture, design, e etc. So clearly that has very much shaped the way that different design styles i like are brought through the ages, you know, obviously simplicity and mentalism meant minimalism, something that I really enjoy and can relate to. Like I also do not like much ornamentation, things like that, just personal preference. But the more actually the question that comes to mind when I think about and look through Shaker furniture is it's very direct influence on other furniture interest styles, especially, you know, things like ah even like Scandinavian design. And like one of the questions I had for you guys is like, is it
00:36:06
Murr
the same as Mission Style because I can tell it's not quite but it looks very related as well. So there's clearly a lot of influence there and I'm sure Eric can speak to many of those.
00:36:20
YEEERiiiiick
Well, to answer your question in brief, and I feel like this is an entirely different episode, but it is different from mission. In that mission is an offshoot of arts and crafts, and arts and crafts was an exploration of joinery as ornamentation. And ornamentation, as we've already discussed, was seen as an absolute negative in Shaker ideology.
00:36:41
Murr
Right. and Interesting. Okay. Okay. There is a relationship though, it seems like.
00:36:45
YEEERiiiiick
So that there there is a relationship. you can You can see they were different schools of thought, but you can see they came about in similar time periods. And you can see how they they were dealing with the same core issues.
00:36:56
Murr
Hmm.
00:36:56
YEEERiiiiick
um But, I mean, Shaker's influence on on contemporary, we'll just keep it to America. I don't know how many international listeners we have, but you know I can speak to my experience as an American. um I mean, you have things that you don't even think of. Let's just take Shaker cabinets, for example. right you go If you get your kitchen redone and you get cabinets designed, one of the options that you will have is Shaker cabinet doors. And all that means is flat panels with flat rails and styles. It is minimalist aesthetic. And it's a thing that they did. So consistently that now having flat panel doors is seen, or even just like sometimes we say raised panel doors are shaker aesthetic, even though sometimes they're and named raised panels.
00:37:45
YEEERiiiiick
So that's one thing. Their influence on form and function and minimalist aesthetic. like We use the term minimalist aesthetic now. That wasn't a thing that existed 150 years ago. And then they had this influence on this school named Bauhaus, which was a thing that happened, what was it, 1920s, 30s Germany?
00:38:06
Murr
I think it was like 1919 or something like that.
00:38:08
YEEERiiiiick
1919. Okay. Uh, so post world war one, Germany will say, and they were, I mean, it's one of the foundational schools of philosophy of design in the 20th first century. And that ideal of minimalism of form over function was one of their core philosophies. Correct me if I'm wrong, Mary.
00:38:28
Murr
Yes, that is correct. Simplicity and minimalism by far was one of their core philosophies as well as form follows function and like, you know, emphasis on materials, honest construction, you know, a lot of overlap.
00:38:40
YEEERiiiiick
and and many And so you can see the the tie-in there. And many of those Bauhaus objects that came about are still ubiquitous in our life. that like one of and Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe one of the the most ubiquitous ones is the school chair, like that blue plastic molded chair with metal legs that came out of Bauhaus.
00:38:58
Murr
Mm. Yep.
00:39:01
YEEERiiiiick
And we'd every single one of us listening to this podcast has sat in one of those chairs.
00:39:05
pjasper
That's true.
00:39:06
Murr
Yeah.
00:39:06
YEEERiiiiick
Yeah. And that like, you can see the direct tie-in of the idea of honesty in material choice and how that, from that school of philosophy ties back to the ideal of the shakers of honesty of materials.
00:39:22
Murr
Yeah, same with, ah like, one of my favorite chairs ever, which is designed by Marcel Brewer was the seska, seska, seska, seska chair, the like, um is that what you call it?
00:39:22
YEEERiiiiick
So the coffee house chair, the coffee house chair. Yeah, the coffee house chair.
00:39:35
Murr
Oh, because they're in coffee houses.
00:39:36
YEEERiiiiick
Yeah.
00:39:37
Murr
Are they? Well, I feel like real, real ones an now are probably
00:39:38
YEEERiiiiick
That's what their name. ah real Real designers call them the Cheska chair.
00:39:44
Murr
ah But it's like that, you know, the one that has the cane seed and then like the really simple ah curved metal that like it's just such a brilliant form that rooted and it was such i I think feel like that one in particular is such a direct influence from something from the shaker furniture style because it really focuses on like function minimalism and just making sure it's like the most perfect chair but also like in such an aesthetic way, which is my favorite.
00:40:16
pjasper
All right, so
Decline of Shaker Communities
00:40:17
pjasper
if we are so enamored by the story of the Shakers, and I think i think the three of us have a healthy respect for what they've accomplished, regardless of of philosophical, religion, you know, basis.
00:40:25
YEEERiiiiick
Mm.
00:40:29
pjasper
um
00:40:32
pjasper
the fact that anything labeled shaker could be bought and sold with perfect confidence, right? And the quality of the product, why did the shakers go away? So I think, you know, we should just for a moment, you know, conclude the story and then we'll move on to like some questions about shaker design and would you use it in your own work. So during the and
00:40:55
Murr
When did they go away?
00:40:56
pjasper
So during the industrialization of America in the late 1800s, early 1900s, they couldn't even though they absolute were sort of the first sort of like highest quality boutique kind of sellers of goods and everyone knew it. Shaker everything was top, top shelf stuff from what I understand. Even with that, the industrialization of America offered the same or not, not the same, fairly similar goods, not as good, but for far cheaper. And they couldn't compete with the industrialization of America. And furthermore, like industrialization, mass production, the Shakers just couldn't compete with it.
00:41:43
pjasper
ah even though they had a superior quality. And on top of that, on top of the economic losses, the new America that was evolving enticed the young men to leave because of all the socioeconomic opportunities. You know, the vow of celibacy didn't age well with a lot of the young men.
00:42:01
YEEERiiiiick
Yeah, that doesn't, that doesn't sell well.
00:42:04
pjasper
and and women for that matter and they they and they and they wanted to explore the world.
00:42:06
YEEERiiiiick
Yeah.
00:42:06
Murr
yeah how dare you
00:42:11
pjasper
So they were they were seeing a decline in their in there money coming in and they were seeing a decline in the numbers of people joining through the late half of the 1800s to the point that it dwindled and dwindled and dwindled until today where there are two or three surviving shakers at one single site in Maine called Sabbath day.
00:42:32
Murr
Yeah, how dare you?
00:42:35
YEEERiiiiick
Mm-hmm.
00:42:36
pjasper
And there are two or three remaining shakers. They will accept new members. I checked as of this morning. There's a long, there's a long list of things you have to do to be a shaker.
00:42:46
pjasper
And it's totally, Mary, it's, it I mean, it's like, you have to denounce like your life to God.
00:42:47
Murr
Wait, what?
00:42:47
YEEERiiiiick
Yep.
00:42:47
Murr
What's on the list?
00:42:53
pjasper
You have to give up all your worldly possessions. You have to take a vow of celibacy, like all the things.
00:42:56
YEEERiiiiick
No more raves in Germany, Mary. I don't think you could do it.
00:42:58
pjasper
No more raves in Germany.
00:42:59
Murr
a hey
00:43:02
pjasper
All the things that Mother Mary Lee espoused from the beginning, if you do all those things and you have a five year residency to try it before they even decide if you could be a new member. ah But they're not particularly against new members, but it's just very few people have the wherewithal to to go through that process.
00:43:26
Murr
So when you say two or three shakers, that's like two or three people, not like, oh my God.
00:43:26
pjasper
so
00:43:29
pjasper
two or three people exist in the world today.
00:43:29
YEEERiiiiick
Yep.
00:43:30
YEEERiiiiick
Yep.
00:43:32
pjasper
In the last, no, in the last Shaker run, and they ah they you can join them for worship on Sunday mornings at 10 a.m.
00:43:32
Murr
I thought you meant like different sex.
00:43:33
YEEERiiiiick
Yep. Nope.
00:43:34
Murr
Nope.
00:43:42
pjasper
I'm sort of, I'm so intrigued by all this.
00:43:45
YEEERiiiiick
You want to go?
00:43:45
pjasper
I almost wanna go.
00:43:46
YEEERiiiiick
You want to go?
00:43:46
pjasper
I took i do.
00:43:47
Murr
Oh my God, can we do a podcast field trip?
00:43:47
YEEERiiiiick
I will go. We'll go. Oh, Oh, too late.
00:43:50
Murr
Wait.
00:43:52
Murr
Podcast field trip to the shaker community.
00:43:54
YEEERiiiiick
We're already doing it. We're already doing it.
00:43:56
Murr
Hahahaha!
00:43:56
pjasper
I am so intrigued by all of this. I kind of want to go.
00:44:00
YEEERiiiiick
i I will say I've been to many a Quaker worship and they are delightful. I've never been to a shaker worship. I don't know.
00:44:08
pjasper
Well, you know, to give them credit, you know, most utopian ah religious sects last less than 10 years.
00:44:17
YEEERiiiiick
Sure.
00:44:17
pjasper
And the Shakers are the are by far ah the most successful ah religious utopian society lasting over two centuries now in the history of the United States so you got to give them like props ah it depends if new people join or not
00:44:31
Murr
But are they gonna die out though? Very, very soon.
00:44:35
YEEERiiiiick
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. But, but before we get too far, listen, we are going on a podcast field trip. That's settled, but I want to go back to your question about, um, the industrialization of America and kind of shaker being synonymous, the name shaker being synonymous with quality and trust. So the, the parallel that I want to draw is during, um, prohibition. The quality of alcohol that one could get at a speakeasy was wildly variant.
00:45:11
pjasper
Mm.
00:45:11
YEEERiiiiick
And nowadays we think of name brands as being overpriced and like, you know, you're just paying for bullshit.
00:45:17
YEEERiiiiick
Like there's no reason to buy a name brand, which is fair. But during the prohibition, if you got the wrong whiskey from the wrong dude, you were going to go blind because welcome to moonshine.
00:45:27
pjasper
Mm. Mm. Methanol.
00:45:29
YEEERiiiiick
Yes.
00:45:29
pjasper
Hmm.
00:45:30
YEEERiiiiick
And so if you bought a name brand, if you bought what, um I don't know what name brands were going on during the prohibition, but let's just say Jack Daniels.
00:45:30
pjasper
Uh.
00:45:39
YEEERiiiiick
If you bought Jack Daniels, you knew at least you weren't going to go blind. And so name brands had this, this air of not necessarily like quality to an extent, but also safety. You knew that your investment was okay and that bad things weren't going to happen.
00:45:52
pjasper
Hmm.
00:45:52
Murr
Wait.
00:45:57
YEEERiiiiick
So again, take yourself back another 50 years before that. to 1870s America, 1880s America, and you have to go out and buy a piece of furniture, you know how much goddamn money you have to spend on a piece of furniture?
00:46:03
pjasper
Yep.
00:46:12
pjasper
Yep. Nope.
00:46:12
YEEERiiiiick
People complain about the price of handmade furniture now, and that's fair.
00:46:16
YEEERiiiiick
I'm not knocking that. But You, everything you bought at that point in time was handmade. It cost a lot of money. And this is why people repaired things rather than bought new things. And so if you went and you found a piece of furniture that was shaker, it had that same. promise of quality and lasting that say buying a bottle of Jack Daniels during the prohibition. I know Jack Daniels didn't exist during the prohibition. That's not the point. But it had that same promise of every like your investment is not going to go to waste and you're getting scammed because you know that it's shaker built.
00:46:53
pjasper
All right.
00:46:54
pjasper
So, Eric.
00:46:54
YEEERiiiiick
That doesn't mean that doesn't mean
00:46:54
Murr
So Shaker was was like the name brand kind of.
00:46:56
YEEERiiiiick
Yeah, yeah, that doesn't mean that is perfect.
00:46:57
pjasper
Yeah. That people could trust.
00:46:59
YEEERiiiiick
That doesn't mean that is perfect, because if you ever look at an original shaker piece, it's replete with tore out tear out and, ah you know, blow out on corners and like the things, things were.
00:46:59
pjasper
Yeah.
00:47:09
pjasper
Is it?
00:47:11
YEEERiiiiick
Yeah, it is because things were handmade.
00:47:12
pjasper
Hmm.
00:47:13
YEEERiiiiick
It's still difficult to make objects, but the thing would function as you needed it to function.
00:47:15
pjasper
Hmm.
00:47:18
pjasper
Hmm. Hmm.
00:47:21
Murr
It's reliable.
00:47:21
YEEERiiiiick
And that's the quality that we're talking about.
00:47:22
Murr
i mean
00:47:24
pjasper
So
00:47:24
Murr
That's kind of like how people talk about Amish furniture these days.
00:47:27
Murr
like Not many people buy them, but anyone who's like, oh yeah, bought Amish furniture, I know it's going to be reliable at least.
00:47:27
pjasper
Yeah, it is.
00:47:28
YEEERiiiiick
Similar, similar.
00:47:33
YEEERiiiiick
Yeah.
00:47:33
Murr
It's just not the style that a lot of people like.
00:47:35
YEEERiiiiick
Yeah.
00:47:35
pjasper
So ah you know I really resonate with that idea of like reputation, quality, the best you can do.
00:47:42
YEEERiiiiick
Sure.
00:47:43
pjasper
And while I'm not particularly religious and they were doing it for religious reasons and that was the fire in their belly that made them do things so well, like I think there's an opportunity for all of us who make things to have the same fire in our belly about making something that lasts the test of time. that you know whoever buys it will have it for centuries and can refinish it and can repair it.
00:48:07
pjasper
And that I think that's independent of religion, but I love that whole premise.
00:48:08
YEEERiiiiick
this
00:48:12
YEEERiiiiick
But this this is the hard thing that I always struggle to articulate too because i'm not I'm not, I wouldn't label myself as religious or Christian at this point in time, but I did come up in that philosophy. And so there is this ideal of, like that's it it's that philosophy is not uniquely Shaker. like I draw that philosophy from the Eastern Orthodox tradition, but there's this idea of striving toward perfection and perfection in and of itself in the the Eastern and Shaker philosophies. That is godliness, right? like You can achieve perfection on earth by achi like striving to be more godly.
00:48:51
pjasper
See, i Eric, I reinterpret that not in terms of godliness, but in terms of humanism. If you care about your fellow human, and you care about your experience while they're alive on this this rock, make them something that brings daily joy to them.
00:48:57
YEEERiiiiick
Yes.
00:49:06
YEEERiiiiick
But but and yeah i listen, I agree with you 100%. And this is the thing that becomes a struggle to articulate then is because like godliness is a is a beautiful term that as soon as I say godliness, you at least know what I'm striving for.
00:49:20
pjasper
I do.
00:49:21
YEEERiiiiick
But when you don't then believe in God or the Western religions, then when you say humanism, people are like, ah, all right. Well, you know like there's no there's no ideal there. but But it is an ideal. It is an ideal.
00:49:35
pjasper
There is, there is.
00:49:37
YEEERiiiiick
It is. And I think you're exactly right in articulating what you just did.
00:49:37
pjasper
Well, that whether whether you believe in God or whether you believe in the the the goodness of humans or whatever you believe, the point is having a belief in something.
00:49:40
YEEERiiiiick
The the.
00:49:52
pjasper
motivates good work because you're doing it with a purpose in mind.
00:49:55
YEEERiiiiick
Yeah.
00:49:57
pjasper
I think that's the point. You're not doing it for profit. You're not doing it to make a buck. Look, money is here today, gone tomorrow. Fuck that. Like, of course we need money to live, but beyond, you know, covering your bases, I do not want to spend my time chasing a dollar because that is fleeting. I want to do it for the purpose of making other humans happy and, you know, improving their life in some way, in some tiny way, right? And the point many philosophers feel is you don't get good furniture and good design without some philosophical underpinning that you believe in. And it doesn't matter what it is exactly, but it's just having that underpinning.
00:50:36
YEEERiiiiick
I would agree with that 100%.
00:50:38
pjasper
Okay, so, no, given all that, given, like, I'm so interested in Shaker stuff right now.
00:50:43
YEEERiiiiick
We could do this for another fucking hour right now.
00:50:45
pjasper
Oh my God, I wanna make, I wanna to make Shaker boxes. Like, I wanna explore this shit so bad. I'm like, I'm absolutely inspired by this whole thing. ah Would either, oh my God, 10 a.m.
00:50:56
Murr
Well, we are going on that field trip.
00:50:58
YEEERiiiiick
We are going on a field trip.
00:50:59
Murr
Yes.
00:51:00
YEEERiiiiick
100%. 10 AM m on a Sunday.
00:51:00
pjasper
on a Sunday, who's going to Maine with me?
00:51:02
YEEERiiiiick
Let's go, baby. Where in Maine is it?
00:51:05
pjasper
It's Sabbath day Maine, right?
00:51:07
pjasper
Didn't I get that right? Shit, I don't know.
00:51:07
YEEERiiiiick
Where is Sabbath day main that's we're going to find out right now.
00:51:10
Murr
How far north is that?
00:51:10
pjasper
i I don't know. Google that. Mary, Google it.
00:51:14
YEEERiiiiick
I'm telling you, she really does.
00:51:14
pjasper
You Google faster than all of us. OK, now, given all that, given everything you've heard about there their ingenuity, their inventiveness, and their passion, right would you make a Shaker-inspired object?
00:51:34
YEEERiiiiick
That's a hard one.
00:51:34
Murr
Sorry, I was distracted by looking up Sabbath day and their
00:51:38
YEEERiiiiick
it It looks like it's maybe an hour north of Portland, by the way, we're absolutely going.
00:51:44
Murr
buildings are so interesting. Oh my God.
00:51:47
YEEERiiiiick
This, hey, hey, hey, hey, focus on the podcast.
00:51:47
Murr
Look at how many windows there are. Okay. Sorry.
00:51:51
pjasper
Okay, the question is, Mary, Jesus Christ, the question is, get given this newfound appreciation for what the Shakers did to furniture design and what they're all about, would you either make a Shaker object like Christian Bexford, or would you, ah which or Eric, or would you evolve this, would you take, would you riff off the Shaker style and evolve it into your own lexicon?
00:51:52
Murr
Sorry, sorry, sorry.
00:52:05
YEEERiiiiick
No.
00:52:12
Murr
Oh, that's that's what I was gonna say. That's what I was gonna say. Like, I don't know if I do a direct copy of a shaker. I mean, maybe it'd be nice to do it once to like practice, but I feel like it would be more interesting to do your own take on a version of a shaker.
00:52:18
YEEERiiiiick
I disagree.
00:52:28
Murr
um piece of furniture. like I definitely relate to them in terms of the simplicity, minimalism, very clean lines. ah But I would want to put like my own twist on it. Why why do you think why do you disagree, Eric?
00:52:43
YEEERiiiiick
I think your curves table is pretty damn close to a shaker piece. Now it's not a shaker piece because it's not simple in every aspect, right? You are adding ornamentation in line and form. But if you were to strip that of color, like I think the one you made was black, correct?
00:53:04
Murr
ah
00:53:04
YEEERiiiiick
The one with with this like the the ovular cutouts.
00:53:05
Murr
i've done I've done both black and natural.
00:53:09
YEEERiiiiick
Okay, the most recent one you did was black.
00:53:11
Murr
Yeah.
00:53:12
YEEERiiiiick
So let's take the natural one, for example. I don't think that's that's far away from a shaker ideal.
00:53:17
Murr
Well, that's what I'm saying. I think I would do something in the Shaker inspiration, but put my own perspective on it. And I think that...
00:53:23
YEEERiiiiick
Yeah, but that's what's, that's what we all do. Like there's no, you're not just going to make shaker furniture.
00:53:28
Murr
Well, isn't that the question? Isn't that what Paul asks, like making a direct copy?
00:53:31
YEEERiiiiick
Uh,
00:53:31
pjasper
Yeah. Well, both, both. Yeah. Well, would you make a direct copy or would you, but would you rather evolve it into your own design language?
00:53:39
Murr
I would rather evolve into my own design language, I think.
00:53:42
YEEERiiiiick
I think the the honest answer is all three of us would take the design philosophy and evolve it and and implement that. And I think I do that constantly. I think like my core design philosophies are essentially Shaker philosophies. like they are
00:53:58
pjasper
Hmm.
00:53:59
Murr
I could definitely see that.
00:53:59
YEEERiiiiick
function Function is equally as important as form. that honesty of material. and Now listen, I don't disagree with veneering as a principle. I think veneering to say to throw veneering out is to not understand that some woods are highly valuable and difficult to come by. And to yield more footage out of them, square footage out of them, is a wise thing to do. I think that's good shepherding, if you will. um But I take that those those core identities and I implement them in most of my
00:54:32
YEEERiiiiick
work. like Not caring how long a thing takes me because the object is the principal concern, I think would very much align with shakel Shaker
00:54:42
pjasper
I'm with you on that. Like you got to give the piece what it needs. We talk about this almost all the time.
00:54:47
YEEERiiiiick
Yeah.
00:54:47
pjasper
You got to give the piece what it means what it needs because like the money is short-lived, the profit is short-lived, but the piece lasts centuries.
Philosophy in Design: Shaker vs Ornamentation
00:54:55
pjasper
Do you want to be proud of that piece? Give it what it needs and stop cutting corners.
00:55:00
Murr
Wait, but I'm curious, Paul, what your answer to the question is because you have a lot of ornamentation.
00:55:05
pjasper
I know, I know.
00:55:07
Murr
So I am really curious to know how you would do that.
00:55:08
YEEERiiiiick
ah Could you do something plain? Ooh, that would be an interesting challenge for I don't know. How would you chat like?
00:55:14
pjasper
Okay, so I do not at all believe that ornamentation is evil. Okay, like, okay, like, let's just as a biologist, if you look at flora, and you look at plants and flowers, their rife with ornamentation, tendrils and colors and, you know, every beautiful shape and Fibonacci patterns. Like, I mean, come on, ornamentation is literally everywhere on this earth to say that that's not godly and I don't give a shit about that because I'm as atheist as they come. But, um you know, from my own point of view, I think ornamentation is beautiful and
00:56:00
pjasper
I might argue it speaks to humans because humans innately love certain ornamentation. Mary, I remember you were in a library at UPenn a few months ago and now you're as you're as minimalist modern as they come and you were oohing and ahing over the ornamentation you saw there because it touches you in a way that's like
00:56:11
Murr
Mm, yeah, the Frank Ernest one.
00:56:23
pjasper
fuck, that's so beautiful. but So how can how can we deny ornamentation from this conversation?
00:56:26
Murr
Yep!
00:56:30
pjasper
I think that the lack of ornamentation was part of the extremism perpetuated by mother and Lee about no sex, no ornamentation, no this, no that. Like I understand like she was going for the most pared down version of Christianity she could imagine and she was having visions and all that shit. That's fine. Like I absolutely accept that for you, but I don't think that's for me. And I don't think that's for most of humans.
00:56:57
Murr
ah Yeah, I would not counteract that but maybe add on to it to consider the beauty and simplicity in contrast or in conjunction with something that's ornamental like nature and floral and you know flowers. I feel like putting those two next to each other just emphasizes how beautiful one is and I think that it makes sense to have that that philosophy of simplicity and natural, you know, emphasizing nature and keeping things clean to emphasize how beautiful these other things can be.
00:57:35
Murr
So I agree with you, like ornamentation is not evil, obviously, but I think that it is potentially more emphasized when put in comparison to these other values.
00:57:36
pjasper
i
00:57:44
pjasper
I... Yeah. You have to do it tastefully, yeah. And Eric, Eric, I don't know how you feel, but Mary's last piece of the hobbit door was quite ornamental.
00:57:57
Murr
Eric, you're muted.
00:58:00
pjasper
For someone, ah Eric got muted for...
00:58:02
YEEERiiiiick
I've been muted this whole time. I've been out to hear, ooh, and on and on all the things that you guys have been saying. I'm literally like, mm, yeah, mm, mm, that's so good. When the, ah, okay.
00:58:13
pjasper
Well, anyway, I just want to call out like we're we're gonna call her minimal Mary from now on minimal Mary's not been so minimal lately.
00:58:13
Murr
No more.
00:58:14
YEEERiiiiick
Well, hey, I know how technology works. It's fine.
00:58:20
YEEERiiiiick
Ooh, okay. She hasn't, she hasn't. There's a lot of things I got to say about that, but we're going to save that for the after show.
00:58:29
pjasper
Okay. All right.
00:58:30
YEEERiiiiick
Oh.
00:58:30
pjasper
So ah do I expect ah you guys to, and let's let's wrap this up. We're at and of roughly an hour. do Should I expect to see something Shaker inspired from the two of you in the next six months to a year?
00:58:44
YEEERiiiiick
I would love to take a moment and reinterpret the oval box.
00:58:51
pjasper
Me too.
00:58:51
YEEERiiiiick
I would love that. i would like I have an idea about boxes for 2025 and I may have to add the oval box to the list.
00:58:59
Murr
Wow!
00:58:59
pjasper
Eric, Eric, while I was looking up oval boxes and every, every parameter of how to make one, because I want to make one so bad.
00:59:07
YEEERiiiiick
Is this our collab?
00:59:10
pjasper
Okay.
00:59:10
YEEERiiiiick
Is this our collab?
00:59:11
pjasper
Wait, wait, wait.
00:59:12
YEEERiiiiick
Can we, okay.
00:59:13
YEEERiiiiick
All right. fine Five, five, five, five, five.
00:59:15
pjasper
There was one oval box that came out and it, sorry, it was a shaker box and it was not an oval.
00:59:22
YEEERiiiiick
Hmm.
00:59:24
pjasper
And I'm going to give you both one guess what the shape was.
00:59:29
YEEERiiiiick
A circle.
00:59:32
Murr
Wait, what? It was not an oval.
00:59:33
pjasper
There was a shaker box that I stumbled across that was not an oval.
00:59:39
YEEERiiiiick
Oh my Christ, it was a stadia.
00:59:41
pjasper
It was a stadium!
00:59:41
YEEERiiiiick
It was a fucking stadia box.
00:59:43
pjasper
It was!
00:59:44
YEEERiiiiick
You son of a bitch.
00:59:45
pjasper
It was, it was two perfect semicircles joined by straight lines. It's the, it's one of the only examples in existence from the Shaker tradition. And it's from the 1850s. And I was like, my God, it's a Stadia box. I'd lost it.
01:00:06
YEEERiiiiick
It's in an A form. It's in an A form in humanity.
01:00:07
pjasper
I lost it.
01:00:10
pjasper
I want to make one of those so bad.
01:00:13
Murr
Is that, that not an oval?
01:00:15
pjasper
It's not, it's a stadium. Okay, ah enough of that.
01:00:15
YEEERiiiiick
The stadium.
01:00:18
pjasper
Okay.
01:00:19
YEEERiiiiick
All right.
01:00:19
YEEERiiiiick
All right.
01:00:19
pjasper
well we Well, we shall see about our field trip to a Sunday worship service in Maine.
01:00:20
YEEERiiiiick
Onward and upward.
01:00:25
YEEERiiiiick
Praise be.
01:00:26
Murr
This is not what I expected, but I'm all for it.
01:00:28
pjasper
And if the listeners want to come, you just contact us and we can put ah put a day together.
01:00:32
YEEERiiiiick
Okay. All right. Oh wow, we're making this a whole, a whole listenership situation.
01:00:37
pjasper
All right, Eric looks very uncomfortable.
01:00:39
YEEERiiiiick
You know what? Let's go praise God together. No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
01:00:41
pjasper
Eric looks very uncomfortable.
01:00:43
YEEERiiiiick
Let's lean in. Let's, let's get like 50 people to go descend upon these two elderly men in Maine and just be like, what's good, play boy?
01:00:46
Murr
I- Oh no!
01:00:54
YEEERiiiiick
Let's, boy, what's poppin?
01:00:54
Murr
I like I other podcasts has all like, oh yeah, let's meet up and drink some beers, you know, like, let's do like a workbench con.
01:00:59
YEEERiiiiick
And we're like, let's meet up. Let's meet up and go to a worship service.
01:01:01
Murr
Like, let's go. Yeah.
01:01:04
pjasper
Let's go check out the shakers, the two remaining shakers on this earth. Okay. All right.
01:01:10
Murr
Oh man.
01:01:10
pjasper
Wow. That was a lot.
01:01:10
YEEERiiiiick
It's perfect.
01:01:11
Murr
From three pretty non-religious people, you know, that's just-
01:01:13
YEEERiiiiick
It's going to be great. It's going to be amazing.
01:01:16
pjasper
Okay. Well, I don't know if you're all invited. It depends on Eric, how Eric's feeling that day, but okay.
01:01:19
YEEERiiiiick
No, you guys, everybody's invited. Let's roll. Let's ride.
01:01:23
Murr
Ahhh!
01:01:24
YEEERiiiiick
I'm going to put this out on Instagram.
01:01:26
Murr
Oh god.
01:01:26
YEEERiiiiick
It's going to be great.
01:01:27
pjasper
So we're gonna pivot to our next segment, which is gonna be a short one. And we decided to do reviews of each other's work, all right? And it's not shaker work, it could be anything, right?
01:01:37
YEEERiiiiick
Speaking of that hobbit house.
01:01:39
pjasper
And as opposed to like, reviewing our own work, we're going to review each other's work. So I'll review Eric. Eric will review Mary, a piece that he likes or doesn't like. And he's going to share all over Mary. Mary, sorry, Mary.
01:01:53
pjasper
And Mary is going to review me, which is kind of ironic because she hates ornamentation and that's all I do. So we'll see how this goes.
01:01:53
YEEERiiiiick
Sorry, Mary.
01:02:00
YEEERiiiiick
So what are, what are we calling this? ri rep Revelry round Paul Revere's ride.
01:02:01
pjasper
Round Robin reviews.
01:02:05
YEEERiiiiick
Um, all right. I don't know. brett Rib, rabbit rush.
01:02:09
pjasper
Who would like to start?
01:02:12
Murr
ah ah Oh my god.
01:02:12
pjasper
All right, I'll start.
01:02:13
pjasper
I'll start.
01:02:13
YEEERiiiiick
Go for it.
01:02:15
pjasper
Because the two of you are fucking too drunk to focus.
01:02:15
YEEERiiiiick
Go for it.
01:02:17
YEEERiiiiick
Mary is so drunk right now.
01:02:18
pjasper
Mary's not.
01:02:20
pjasper
Mary's stone cold sober, but Eric and I. Okay, so to begin, our my I'm reviewing a piece by Eric. Eric, the first piece of yours that jumps into my mind instantly when we said we're going to review each other's piece. Do you know what it is?
01:02:20
Murr
Oh my god, you guys.
01:02:35
YEEERiiiiick
I don't.
01:02:36
Murr
Is it, can I guess?
01:02:36
pjasper
Yes. Yeah, sure.
01:02:38
Murr
Is it the the violin cabinet?
01:02:41
pjasper
Yes Eric Eric That violin cabinet was so fucking good It made me a little bit angry a little bit upset and a lot like proud of you.
01:02:42
Murr
Because that's my favorite too.
01:02:45
YEEERiiiiick
Okay, all right.
01:02:57
pjasper
It was awesome I mean the way it it cinched in the waist
01:03:03
pjasper
ah you know it had like It had this like flow to it, and each slat, not only did the slats move like from like an hourglass shape, but the slats themselves were concave, as I remember.
01:03:03
YEEERiiiiick
That was my favorite part of it.
01:03:16
YEEERiiiiick
Yeah, yeah.
01:03:18
pjasper
It was, and it was, it was painted white.
01:03:18
Murr
I like the color, for sure.
01:03:21
YEEERiiiiick
it The white.
01:03:21
pjasper
It was stained white.
01:03:23
pjasper
It was so tasteful, so like sophisticated, so beautiful, but understated. It wasn't like trying to be beautiful. It just was. I loved it. And when you saw the violin in it and they saw the doors open with those beautiful brass like pins, I mean, dude, it was flawless.
01:03:23
Murr
Yeah!
01:03:42
pjasper
I just, it's my favorite piece.
01:03:43
YEEERiiiiick
Well, thank you.
01:03:44
YEEERiiiiick
I appreciate that, buddy. I think the the thing that made that work was it was, for those of you who haven't seen it, you should look at my friend, Kristen, and I will find her handle before the end of the episode because I don't remember it off the top.
01:03:45
pjasper
No.
01:03:58
YEEERiiiiick
Kristen Siegfried. Kay Siegfried violence, Siegfried violence.
01:03:59
pjasper
Secret violence, was it? Yeah.
01:04:02
YEEERiiiiick
um She's an incredible luthier. Absolutely brilliant. And she commissioned me to make that piece. And I think what works really well is the whole point of that cabinet was to display the panache. And is it which is the tiniest playable full scale violin that exists.
01:04:15
pjasper
Which is what, Eric?
01:04:20
pjasper
Got it.
01:04:20
YEEERiiiiick
It's one sixteenth scale and it still plays like a full size violin.
01:04:27
YEEERiiiiick
it It is. Yeah, no, it's wild. um But it's it's.
01:04:30
Murr
How have I not played one before? That's wild.
01:04:33
YEEERiiiiick
Get Kristen to bring it down. You should play it.
01:04:35
Murr
I should.
01:04:35
YEEERiiiiick
um But it's a brilliant piece. and And that whole idea was to display that that object that she made. So I was really happy that the two could, I think, stand alone. And then when they came together, it felt really special.
01:04:48
pjasper
It was great. It was just like, it's instantly what I think of as one of your finest pieces. It was brilliant. Not that you don't have other great pieces you do. I love your whiskey cabinets. I love a lot of the things you make, but that one was like, woof.
01:05:02
YEEERiiiiick
Thanks buddy. I appreciate that.
01:05:02
pjasper
ah Funny story about Kristen.
01:05:04
YEEERiiiiick
Hmm.
01:05:04
pjasper
This is crazy. I didn't tell you this.
01:05:07
YEEERiiiiick
Oh.
01:05:08
pjasper
Okay? ah I had a former work colleague named Thomas, a good friend of mine. ah Still to this day, he doesn't work with me anymore, but he's a good friend of mine, scientist Thomas.
01:05:17
YEEERiiiiick
Okay.
01:05:19
pjasper
Thomas ah and his, he's got two kids. His kids were like making friends at school and he met this cool luthier named Kristen by chance. and their kids would always play together. And she's like, oh, what do you do? She's like, I'm a luthier. And he's like, oh, you know, I've learned some woodworking. I have a a really close friend who taught me woodworking or sort of got me into it. His name's Paul. Maybe you, I don't know if you've heard of him and Kristin's like cover pig Paul and Thomas is like, I used to work with him.
01:05:48
Murr
is
01:05:50
pjasper
What do you mean? You know him. And she's like, yeah, of course I know him. like And the, and then the, the both Thomas and Kristin came to my design talk when I gave it in Lexington last month.
01:05:59
Murr
Aww, that's so nice!
01:05:59
YEEERiiiiick
No shit, really? Oh, that's awesome.
01:06:01
pjasper
Yeah. And I got to meet Kristin face to face.
01:06:04
pjasper
It was really like, like.
01:06:04
Murr
Aww.
01:06:04
YEEERiiiiick
kristen Kristin is the fucking coolest. She's so cool, yeah.
01:06:07
pjasper
She's very cool. it was It was such a nice little weird happenstance. Like the world, it some it feels so big, but then other times it feels so small.
01:06:14
YEEERiiiiick
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:06:15
pjasper
Like something like that can happen.
01:06:17
YEEERiiiiick
Our world is very small.
01:06:18
Murr
ah Have you guys ever made any like luthier or things or taken any classes?
01:06:23
YEEERiiiiick
No.
01:06:24
Murr
I've always wanted to.
01:06:24
pjasper
I have.
01:06:25
pjasper
I did pyrography on a viola for ah Christopher Jacobi.
01:06:26
Murr
Yeah?
01:06:30
Murr
What?
01:06:30
pjasper
did you Did you see that? i did Yeah, we we put all like the ribs around the entire viola.
01:06:32
YEEERiiiiick
You're
01:06:36
pjasper
It's like my hand-drawn pyrography and across the back.
01:06:36
YEEERiiiiick
a bad son of a bitch.
01:06:40
pjasper
And Chris made a very non-conventional viola that we worked on together.
01:06:43
Murr
Wow.
01:06:45
pjasper
I'll send it to you, Mary. I'll send you pictures.
01:06:48
Murr
Dang.
01:06:48
YEEERiiiiick
you're a bad son of a bitch
01:06:50
pjasper
Okay, Eric, you're up.
01:06:53
YEEERiiiiick
All right, um the this is a multi-step process right here because the first thing I do want to bring up is the Hobbit door um for for for for a number of reasons.
01:07:02
pjasper
I love to hobbit door.
01:07:05
YEEERiiiiick
Number one, the Hobbit door in and of itself as an object makes me smile such a deep smile, because it's so silly and playful and useless.
01:07:11
pjasper
Yes. Yes.
01:07:16
YEEERiiiiick
And that is so against your philosophy.
01:07:16
pjasper
Yes.
01:07:18
YEEERiiiiick
Like I like I can feel I can feel the tension in you in making that and yet I know it wasn't
01:07:19
Murr
That is true.
01:07:26
YEEERiiiiick
contentious at all because of your your deep love for the Hobbit and then you also have this thing of a square compartment with a round door and like there's just so many the ornamentation the coloring and then you put your fucking face in the real like there's so many elements of like you doing something that's outside of what you feel safe doing and that it like it literally made me not only is the object so wonderful it made me so proud as your friend to see you like do this thing and then put it out in the world and be like this is what I fucking made I don't give a shit if you like it or not it's it's so good
01:07:47
pjasper
Mary.
01:08:00
pjasper
Mary, it was awesome.
01:08:01
Murr
It was a it was it was my way of because I've been out of water cream soap for so long. It was my way of making myself fall back in love with woodworking. So it's a true passion project.
01:08:12
YEEERiiiiick
But those those those are the those are the objects that are brilliant, right? Like those are the things, like it's so clearly, listen, I don't know how well the audience knows you. I know you as your friend, as this super fucking nerd who loves the Hobbit and like this deep, deep love for this tale that I also love in fairness. And then you make this object that's so perfect for it. And the content that you make around it is so, Dissonant with the other content that you've made it made me so happy.
01:08:43
Murr
Oh, that's true.
01:08:45
YEEERiiiiick
It made me so happy Yes,
01:08:45
pjasper
Yeah. Mary, if I could comment, that was a joyful project.
01:08:49
Murr
Yeah.
Artistic Creations: French Curve & Skull Boxes
01:08:50
YEEERiiiiick
and it's so clear it's so clear so that's one of them um I was proud of you for that ah The other one that immediately jumped to mind and I don't know how you're gonna feel about this but the French curve that you made and is is so obnoxiously perfect.
01:08:51
pjasper
Yeah.
01:08:56
Murr
Oh wow. Dang.
01:09:05
Murr
Oh yeah.
01:09:06
pjasper
Hmm. Hmm.
01:09:11
YEEERiiiiick
Like it is.
01:09:12
Murr
It's so big!
01:09:13
YEEERiiiiick
It's I know, listen, I know it's a French curve, like, you know, it's the design parameters were there for you, but it wasn't just the curve itself. It was the the way that you created the curve and presented the curve. And it was it was perfect. And it felt it felt like there is this, I mean, in striving for perfection, right? We often, I think you among the three of us strive for perfection the most. And perfection, I don't know if everybody knows this, is fucking hard to to achieve.
01:09:47
YEEERiiiiick
Like it's a real high bar to clear.
01:09:50
Murr
Tell that to the Shakers, though.
01:09:50
YEEERiiiiick
So Well, I think even they would acknowledge that perfection is difficult to achieve. I think the striving toward perfection is what the the thing is that matters. And every now and again, you accidentally achieve it in the stupidest of objects. And I think that's exactly what you did with that French curve. Like it's so perfect.
01:10:10
pjasper
Very good.
01:10:11
YEEERiiiiick
It's it's such a delight.
01:10:13
pjasper
Very good.
01:10:13
Murr
It's very satisfying to hold and use. I mean, I don't have it anymore, but I, there was a commission from a, it was a commission for a friend who, who wanted it for like a professional artist.
01:10:18
pjasper
You don't have it anymore?
01:10:24
pjasper
and
01:10:24
Murr
And they're like, we just want a big ass French curve.
01:10:27
Murr
I was like, okay. Uh, so I made it as like, well, I feel like something this nice should really have a case. He really didn't ask for a case. So like, I just made a whole other case. It's like, how else am I going to ship it?
01:10:36
pjasper
Mary?
01:10:37
YEEERiiiiick
and See, that's the thing.
01:10:37
pjasper
Mary?
01:10:38
pjasper
did you give the Did you give the object what it needed?
01:10:38
YEEERiiiiick
That's the thing.
01:10:41
YEEERiiiiick
Yes.
01:10:42
Murr
Yeah.
01:10:43
pjasper
You did.
01:10:43
Murr
Exactly.
01:10:44
YEEERiiiiick
And it comes through so clearly in that. It's just this, this I don't know. It's it's perfect. It's perfect.
01:10:50
pjasper
Good for you, Mary.
01:10:51
Murr
Oh, wow.
01:10:51
YEEERiiiiick
That's all I got.
01:10:52
Murr
Dang, we should do the segment for often.
01:10:58
Murr
Okay, okay, I got one for Paul.
01:11:00
YEEERiiiiick
Alright, go for it.
01:11:01
pjasper
Uh-oh.
01:11:02
Murr
um Okay, so my favorite is I think by far, the skull, the skull boxes that you've made, because especially the one I forget, I know you did multiple, sorry, let me pull it up.
01:11:09
YEEERiiiiick
Mmm.
01:11:15
Murr
the one that has like the curly cues all around it, I think it because I love old school scientific drawings and that reminds me so much of that and I feel like that
01:11:18
pjasper
Yeah.
01:11:24
YEEERiiiiick
Ooh, interesting.
01:11:27
Murr
definitely calls to like the science part of yourself. i't maybe um Maybe it was unintentional, but for me, like the style of that is just so much like like the old posters that I used to have. is Well, I guess people, not everyone always had those posters, but and like i I just love that style of drawing.
01:11:38
pjasper
I get it. I get it.
01:11:40
YEEERiiiiick
Mmm So you're talking
01:11:40
pjasper
Yeah.
01:11:44
Murr
I always wanted to get like a tattoo of it, of like floral or like you know but botanical, fauna, things like that. So I think that the skull was is probably my favorite piece. Um, and the ornamentation around it emphasizes it. It is, I think that it would have been weird to not have the ornamentation. So that is my favorite.
01:12:05
YEEERiiiiick
you're You're talking about the the box with the carved rim around it with the floral um pyrography around the skull, correct?
01:12:13
Murr
Yes. Yes.
01:12:15
YEEERiiiiick
That's a beautiful piece.
01:12:17
Murr
Yeah. I love that.
01:12:17
pjasper
So.
01:12:18
Murr
Like the shading in like the eye sockets and everything that I think that is my favorite.
01:12:20
YEEERiiiiick
Mm.
01:12:24
pjasper
Alright, so I have to say, like first and foremost, my friend Elena Semenova is the one who made the skull itself. like she She is a world-class marketry expert who lived who lives in Moscow, Russia.
01:12:34
Murr
Oh, okay.
01:12:39
YEEERiiiiick
She's really phenomenal.
01:12:41
Murr
Oh, wow.
01:12:43
pjasper
And her and I collaborated on these. So she did the skull. And I did all of the the floral. I drew the floral work on my iPad and I pyrographied it and shaded it. And together we've been making these skull themed objects. And I'll be honest. um similar to the Shakers getting a lot of shit for what they believed. ah I believe skulls are not particularly morbid. I think about death almost every day. It's a natural part of life. And that helps me prioritize what I do with my time.
01:12:43
Murr
Oh, wow.
01:13:14
pjasper
I think skulls are provocative and compelling and cool. And I put them on a lot of pieces, as you can tell.
01:13:23
YEEERiiiiick
Yeah.
01:13:23
pjasper
And so um even though I've had some people really assault me verbally about why would you put such
01:13:28
Murr
That is crazy.
01:13:29
pjasper
Why would you put such disgusting imagery on such like such a beautiful box? You've ruined it completely.
01:13:36
pjasper
Like, even though I hear shit like that, I don't care because art should ruffle feathers if you're doing it right.
01:13:36
Murr
Oh my God.
01:13:36
Murr
my God.
01:13:40
YEEERiiiiick
Yeah.
01:13:44
pjasper
And Elena and I, man, I love Elena. Her work is spectacular. And I love collaborating with her with her marketry. And the skull is an example of that. So, you know me, I love interacting with people. I'm an extrovert. I find the the process of making things more enjoyable when you do it together with someone else. So, Alaina and I we the skull were team skull.
01:14:09
YEEERiiiiick
what what i what What I really love about this piece is knowing you and knowing that philosophy about you is that that idea of, I don't give a shit if people like this or not.
01:14:10
Murr
Oh, I love that.
01:14:21
YEEERiiiiick
I don't give a shit if people are are upset about this. This is the thing I feel I need to make. And I found this person who's incredible at making this marketry around skulls in particular. And I'm gonna fucking do it.
01:14:31
pjasper
Yeah.
01:14:33
YEEERiiiiick
And i'm gonna I'm gonna highlight this thing that I'm interested in.
01:14:33
pjasper
I love it.
01:14:36
pjasper
I love it.
01:14:37
YEEERiiiiick
like that more more than art should ruffle feathers art should be in my opinion a representation of where the artist is at a given moment and i think that's what you do really well here you are very clearly saying like this skull is the thing i'm sitting with in this moment and if you don't like it get fucked because i'm going to highlight the shit out of it
01:14:57
Murr
Yeah, it's it speaks to my inner emo child.
01:15:01
pjasper
Well, ah I'll have you know that that I'm making a huge William & Mary inspired valuables box with a gigantic skull on the lid.
01:15:02
Murr
For sure.
01:15:08
YEEERiiiiick
Mmm yep.
01:15:11
pjasper
And I asked, you know, I'm friends with Lee Kino from the Antiques Roadshow. And I asked Lee Kino the other day, I said, Lee, do you know any buyers who would want this? like And it's inspired off an original ah valuables chest that sold for $2.1 million. dollars
01:15:28
Murr
Okay, and Chris, there was a Simon, there was a Simon shop, a valuable capitol, and he believed in it.
01:15:28
pjasper
Okay, at Christie's, there was the c simons the c Simon's shop, Valuables cabinet, William & Mary period.
01:15:35
pjasper
It sold for ridiculous money. And so and and lee Lee lost the, he was the second bid.
01:15:35
Murr
He sold for his ridiculous money, and he still didn't believe that he lost.
01:15:40
Murr
He didn't win it, he didn't expect it.
01:15:41
pjasper
He didn't win it. He was the second bid for his customer.
01:15:42
YEEERiiiiick
No shit.
01:15:43
Murr
For his, for his buck.
01:15:45
pjasper
And so I figured if there's anyone who could appreciate this chest, because it's based, off the design is based off the original, but it's it's I skewed it with the skull and some some other ornamentation.
01:15:45
Murr
And so I figured, anyone who's ever seen this,
01:15:46
YEEERiiiiick
Hmm.
01:15:56
pjasper
I said, Lee, do you imagine any of your customers would want this?
01:15:59
Murr
Hahahahaha!
01:16:00
pjasper
Because like if he doesn't have the customer for this, I don't know that. And he said, well, Paul, you know as you might appreciate it, he goes, a lot of my customer base is getting up in years and the idea.
01:16:17
pjasper
And the idea that there's a skull on the lid would only function to remind them of their impending mortality. He's like, so I don't think my customer base is exactly appropriate for this piece, but if I let if I think of anyone, I'll let you know.
01:16:28
Murr
ah That's hilarious.
01:16:29
YEEERiiiiick
well
01:16:32
pjasper
as a Fantastic.
01:16:33
YEEERiiiiick
That was that was the most academic way of saying nah dog like
01:16:33
Murr
That is hilarious.
Conclusion & Audience Engagement
01:16:39
pjasper
All right, well, kids, I hope you enjoyed our round robin review of each other's furniture.
01:16:44
YEEERiiiiick
Mmhmm.
01:16:45
pjasper
And I hope you found the review of the Shakers ideology their immense contributions to innovation and furniture in America that is even beyond America. it It procreated into the world. I hope you found that discussion interesting and compelling. And ah I definitely want to explore Shaker Forms now as part of my own design language. I am so inspired.
01:17:15
pjasper
when I am so inspired by this whole story. I hope you enjoyed our first episode of like the master series of reviewing like types and and very influential forms of furniture in America. We'd like to to continue that with some other forms.
01:17:34
pjasper
ah
01:17:34
YEEERiiiiick
Oh, now, now nobody's trying to cast blame on me out here for bringing up this concept.
01:17:38
pjasper
it was a eric It was a great...
01:17:39
YEEERiiiiick
it Yeah, I think that works, buddy.
01:17:41
pjasper
ah At first, I was like,
01:17:43
Murr
If there are any suggestions, by the way, for other artists, let us know.
01:17:45
YEEERiiiiick
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
01:17:46
pjasper
OK, yeah, great. OK, so with that, ah we're just going to thank our two patrons over the last ah few weeks. That's Catherine, Catherine Dodd and Aaron Riesner.
01:17:57
YEEERiiiiick
Big K. Hey, A-Ron, thanks, guys.
01:17:58
pjasper
Thank you both.
01:18:00
pjasper
And you know not I don't want to just thank our the new patrons, I want to thank the people who have continued to support us.
01:18:00
Murr
Thank you.
01:18:08
pjasper
right It's not just joining, it's the continued support. Again, it pays for our hosting, it paid for some of our sound upgrades, and we really appreciate it.
01:18:08
YEEERiiiiick
absolutely absolutely pays for for mary's hair and makeup so that's big man i don't have a trailer for this podcast yet but um we're gonna get there
01:18:20
Murr
Uh, more like your hair and makeup, excuse me. Mr. T2 TV shows, I'm on trailer.
01:18:33
pjasper
All right, this is our longest show ever, an hour and 18 minutes.
01:18:35
YEEERiiiiick
It is. Let's, let's wrap this shit up. What are we doing in the after show?
01:18:38
pjasper
In the after show, we're going to cover what, and this was a ah user submitted question. Several users asked for this. They said, please tell us about a design fuck up or a design challenge that you encountered that really hit you hard. And how did you overcome it? I think so many people hit the wall in a project that does such a common occurrence.
01:19:01
pjasper
And to hear other stories about how they overcame it or didn't or pivoted or changed or, you know, to hear that, not only it it just makes it more approachable, makes them feel like, oh, wow, you know, I'm not alone here. So that's what we're that's what we're going to be covering in the after show. And if you'd like to join and hear the after show, ah just be a patron of ours. All right.
01:19:01
YEEERiiiiick
Yeah.
01:19:24
YEEERiiiiick
Thanks friends.
01:19:25
Murr
Bye!
01:19:26
YEEERiiiiick
Make good decisions.
01:19:26
pjasper
Bye.
01:19:28
YEEERiiiiick
Deuces.