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Daniel Roytas on Trauma, Illness, Responsibility, Controlling our Health, and More!
417 Plays2 months ago
This week, we are pleased to welcome back the esteemed Daniel Roytas. He never fails to question the current narrative, and I would consider him a true scientist. Daniel and I delve into the topic of whether psychological traumas can cause disease, an idea that we both have previously believed in. Today, we contemplate whether it is truly the root cause.
We discuss the logic behind this notion and explore how our ancestors faced major psychological traumas without developing disease. We also consider the idea that modern humans may have lost the ability to process trauma in a natural way, pointing to a different root cause than the traumatic event itself.
A very insightful episode! I hope you enjoy it!
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Transcript
Introduction and Book Launch
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome everybody to another episode of the Beyond Training Podcast. I'm your host, David Dalton. We're joined today by an amazing guest, Mr. Daniel Roy. It's been quite a while since we've held him on the podcast. We're really fortunate to have him back on. Uh, since our last chat, he released an amazing book, Can You Catch a Cold? And, uh, we've given this book away a couple of times actually over on Instagram. And I think it's fitting to maybe do another one for this podcast episode.
00:00:28
Speaker
So if you leave us a review or a comment and shoot me a message on Instagram or an email, I'll pick one of yours and we'll give it to you. I think I got another copy laying around. It's a phenomenal read. I think it's ah truly central. One of those books, honestly, that I view as kind of a starting point in this whole train moving. People always ask, you know, what books
Living Free Festival Experience
00:00:48
Speaker
should I read? what you know what Where do we start? Where do we look? And, you know, I've thought about this a lot and, you know, it really there's no one great place to start. There are many. but This book, man, really just brought it all together. And um I think it's a fantastic starting point. It's now my recommendation as a starting point. ah But, you know, obviously there's lots of great literature. This is just one beautiful piece of the puzzle. Anyways, Daniel, thank you so much for coming back on the day. You're very welcome, Leo. Thank you for the wonderful introduction. And just to ah build upon your point, um
00:01:26
Speaker
Glad to hear you've been doing some giveaways with my book. I really appreciate that. I'd be happy to send some copies your way, mate, so you can give away a few copies if you want. Happy to work something out with you there, no problems at all. Super cool, man. Yeah, definitely. I'm sure the the listeners would love that. they've I've gotten so much great feedback on this book and I loved it myself. So, yeah, amazing, amazing, brother.
00:01:52
Speaker
um so It's been a while. you know What have you been up to? What have you been learning about? What's kinda on the tip of your tongue lately? Yeah, it's been quite busy over the last several months since probably been close to, I don't know, 10 or so months since I spoke to you last. ah I have done a lot of presentations. I recently got back from Australia.
00:02:16
Speaker
I actually went back there to do an in-person event, which was the Living Free Festival. so There's an organization called the Living Free Movement. I don't know if you've heard of them, but they do a lot of good work in the health freedom space and ran a Festival, I think it was a three day festival at the end of August where I was able to go and present there alongside people like Mike winner from alphabetic and, uh, uh, Alec Zach from, uh, the way forward and a number of other, uh, presenters. And it was a really good event, had a lot of fun. And when I came, but when I finished that, I did another event that I had organized myself.
00:03:06
Speaker
which was for a sort of mini book launch in my hometown in Brisbane of Australia. and We got about 30 people along to that and just had a really nice intimate discussion about the book and a few other things pertaining to the terrain.
Questioning Emotional Trauma's Role in Disease
00:03:22
Speaker
so That was sort of August and now I'm back just doing presentations and podcasts and research for some upcoming things that I've got in the works to be released soon. so Yeah, it's been, it's been good, keeping busy. Amazing. Amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Idle hands are the devil's work. So that's good to hear. yeah Um, that's great, man. Um, anything that, that, uh, comes to mind that you want to share right now, anything that you've been learning about that's really piquing your interest. Uh,
00:04:00
Speaker
I know you you may want to get into a few things around the causes of disease. and I think last time that I spoke, I was of the perspective that certain things cause disease that I've since changed my mind on. and I've actually had some discussions about this with a close friend of mine, Emerus Goldsworthy, who I think you've had on the podcast previously.
00:04:24
Speaker
and Yeah, we were sort of we didn't really see eye to eye on that situation until I went over to Australia and saw him and had a chance to sit down and explain my perspective. and He came around to sort of understanding where I stand. and I think that's a big chart or a big piece of the puzzle to understanding what causes disease. so We can get into that, but this has been where some of my focus has been lying in the last several months and also talking about parasites. So I've done a couple of presentations now. I was on Tom Cowan's podcast ah about a month ago talking about this, and I've done a few other presentations for people on this topic. So that's sort of been the two main points of focus for me recently. You know what? I'd love to hear a little bit more about that that that first point about you
00:05:23
Speaker
You have a little shift in perspective there. Tell us about that. And I think last time I was on the podcast, we were talking about the causes of disease and my perspective was that there are three causes. So there's a deficiency of something, an excess of something, sorry, maybe four causes. Uh, bear with me for one moment. My little baby puppy dog has found a toy.
00:05:52
Speaker
And he's trying to play with it and I'm just yeah sorry. Amazing. What kind of dog is it? He's a, he's a little toy poodle. The toy poodle. Oh, I'm so cute. Unreal. That's a good looking toy. Nice little neck pillow there. Yeah. He's very cute and he's full of beans at the moment. So I apologize for, uh, for that. Uh,
00:06:23
Speaker
This is going to. Four causes. No, I'm going to have to move it. I'm going to have to move it. I'm sorry. Sure. Go ahead. Um, not you know, thinking about, uh, the four causes of disease, you know, while Daniel takes a moment here, it it's funny because I think we've probably had a very similar shift in perspective and we haven't talked in depth about this, but, um, you know, I really think that where this is going to go, I'm going to be in complete agreeance with it. And, and I had the, uh,
00:06:52
Speaker
Just from what I'm hearing already, I think that we're going to come to a really interesting conclusion here. So anyways, please continue. You're saying about the four causes of disease. Yes, my apologies about that. ah
00:07:08
Speaker
So the last time we spoke, I sort of put forward this idea that there's four causes of disease, which is something that you're getting in excess, something that you're getting or not getting enough of. So a deficiency of something.
00:07:22
Speaker
and a physical trauma or an emotional trauma.
00:07:29
Speaker
So I still, I'm of the perspective that deficiencies and toxicities and physical trauma cause disease, but I'm not so sure that emotional trauma does. And that may be a bit of a triggering point for some people because it's an idea that they hold preciously.
00:07:52
Speaker
to their hearts and to have that idea challenged is uncomfortable for a lot of people. I totally understand where people are coming when they hold this perspective because I held it for many, many years. like i went and did ah I got a qualification in psychotherapy and a qualification in hypnotherapy when I was in clinical practice to actually help people deal with this specifically. So I've been of this opinion it and understand it well enough, I hope, um to see where the pitfalls lie and to to be able to analyze this perspective in know enough and enough depth to deconstruct it and really analyze it to see, is it true?
00:08:46
Speaker
does an event that transpires in our life make us ill? And I mean, we don't even need to get into like all the nitty gritty of it. We can just talk about this logically. And when you start thinking about this logically, it becomes clear or apparent that maybe we've got this wrong.
Nature's Balance vs. Human Perception
00:09:15
Speaker
this idea i don't know leov This idea really started to take hold around the time that people were questioning germ theory. In 2020, a lot of people woke up and went, oh my God, germs don't cause illness. and Around the same time, this idea became popularized that emotional trauma does. so When people had one of their beliefs challenged about a cause of disease, they were then looking for an alternative.
00:09:44
Speaker
Like, okay, well, if it's not a germ, then what is it? And there were people they're waving this banner of, it's an emotional cause. And people attached to that because they were searching for an alternative explanation. And I sort of jumped on that bandwagon too, without really thinking it through. And now that I have thought it through, I've sort of let go of that idea. And I think, uh,
00:10:14
Speaker
It's incredibly freeing when you realize that that is not a cause of illness and that we've got it wrong. And yeah, we can unpack this i idea a little bit more, but that's sort of a brief introduction into how I came to this new way of thinking or looking at things. Amazing. Yeah. Let's talk about this because this is a really, really interesting, um,
00:10:45
Speaker
Let's hear, um, let's hear a little bit more about what exactly I think you mean by, you know, some sort of psychological, emotional trauma. Um, and I guess, you know, for the listeners, I guess the idea is that these traumas can manifest as, as physical illness, right? That's sort of the claim that goes around quite a bit. Chronic illness, autoimmune diseases, things like this have some sort of root in, you know,
00:11:12
Speaker
your upbringing ages zero to five, we've heard and, um, we could trace these traumas back and it's sort of cyclically, is this exactly what you're referring to? Yeah. And we hear this a lot. It's like, I've got Crohn's disease and I go to all the doctors and no one can find what's wrong with me. And then I go to a practitioner who tells me it's an emotional trauma that happened when I was five, my a girl at school broke my heart or My dad told me he didn't love me or like something happened and it then manifested as a physical illness. And the reason why you're not getting better from all the other interventions that you've done is because you haven't treated the emotional cause. You haven't gone and found out what that trauma was and then let it go and remove that emotional blockage.
00:12:10
Speaker
um And then when people do that, they get better. So they erroneously assume that because the treatment worked, that must have been, well, that is proof of the cause. So I went and got the treatment done and now I'm better. Therefore, that is evidence of the cause of the illness. But I'm not so sure it works that way.
00:12:41
Speaker
Now, we can start right at the top here. one of the reasons like the One of the first things that I heard or discovered that challenged this idea for me was discovering that in nature, there isn't any disease. So people living in uncontacted tribes, and I'm not sure if we spoke about this last time in in your podcast, but People living in uncontacted tribes, so deep in the Amazon rainforest, for example, or in the rainforest of Papua New Guinea, or in the um tundras of Alaska, or wherever these isolated communities may be that don't have contact with the outside world and still live in relative harmony with nature, they eat and live
00:13:35
Speaker
the way that their ancestors used to. They don't really have any outside influences from the West. These people are largely free from disease. They're not walking around with diabetes and cancer and heart disease and whatever else. And I found many, many examples of this that are still occurring today. Like there are about 50,000 people in the world living in a few dozen tribes that live this way. And when anthropologists and doctors go and meet them and do assessments on them, they can't find anything wrong with them. So that's in itself is quite profound to think and and and and know and realize that in nature, there is no such thing as disease because nature is constantly trying to seek equilibrium and balance.
00:14:33
Speaker
So it's not out to damage itself. It's not out to cause a problem. It's not out to destroy itself. That doesn't happen. That's not what nature does. If it did do that, then there wouldn't be any nature. It has to be self-maintaining and self-perpetuating and it must be able to maintain and retain and sustain balance at all times.
00:15:01
Speaker
or if there is an imbalance, it corrects that imbalance. If it it didn't have that capacity over a period of centuries or however long, it would essentially just self implode who would no longer exist.
00:15:20
Speaker
So if humans are able to live without disease and live um live and enjoy a life free from disease when they live in harmony with nature,
00:15:33
Speaker
I thought, well, they're all being exposed to emotional emotionally traumatic events because living in nature is hard. So if you're living in a tribe in the jungle somewhere, maybe a pant that comes along and attacks a family member and kills them, or you have a child that's born and they die as an infant, or you witness some kind of um environmental disaster. There's like a hurricane or a flood or something and it wipes out your entire tribe and all the the huts and the houses and things are gone. You have to start again. like There's many, many potential potentially traumatic events in nature, right? Yet all of those people weren't walking around with diabetes and Crohn's disease and cancer and you name it. So there's a bit of a disconnect there.
00:16:33
Speaker
So this point in itself, in and of itself really brings into question if the traumatic event is the cause of the effect. Because if you have these examples existing and we can demonstrate this, this is demonstrable that this occurs, people living free of disease, yet they are being exposed to emotional trauma, it means that the emotional trauma cannot be the cause. There is something else going on here.
00:17:15
Speaker
so it may be that We totally misunderstand what's going on.
Trauma's Subjective Nature
00:17:20
Speaker
Or that there's some kind of disruption to an internal mechanism that processes so-called emotionally traumatic events that has been disrupted. So like these are the some of the things that I'm thinking about and trying to work through to really get to the crux of of the matter. So what what comes to mind for me
00:17:46
Speaker
when I'm hearing this, you know because this has been a point of contention for me as well. you know we we know that the I think that is a ah great starting point that we can work off. you know or The ancestral tribes you know living an ancestral way of life didn't have any disease. There certainly were traumas, as you mentioned, um but again, it didn't cause disease. I think that's really interesting and really important to consider.
00:18:14
Speaker
You know, what came to mind for me is, you know, is there a natural form of trauma and an unnatural form of trauma? You know, that's sort of what popped into my mind. You might've thought about this before. Um, and I think that it might be easily disproven, but you know, say, you know, loss is, is something that is a more natural thing to deal with. Um,
00:18:42
Speaker
versus having a parent around physically, but is on drugs or drinks alcohol. And so it was totally emotionally unavailable would maybe be a more unnatural sort of trauma to have that deficiency in that connection there. Um, you know, I'm curious if there's, if, if we could, you know, segregate, segregate the two, uh,
00:19:10
Speaker
types of trauma in this case. I'm wondering if you thought about that at all. Yeah, I have.
00:19:20
Speaker
So this raises the question, what makes something a traumatic event? ah that So I'll ask you this question. You can ponder it. And it's a bit of a loaded question. and um I'll see what you say. Are there good and bad events or good and bad things that happen in nature?
00:19:56
Speaker
No, I've thought about this a lot. I don't think that we can ascribe morality to nature at all. Yeah, it's that's a great point. Yeah, that's a great point. So that that idea of something being good or bad.
00:20:09
Speaker
It is not an objective truth. It is not an objective truth because nature just is. It doesn't do good or bad or happy or sad or content or angry. It just is. That is just the way that nature works. There is always a balance there.
00:20:36
Speaker
see Good and bad things are subjective. And what is good for one person is maybe not so good for another person. What is good for one culture may be not so good for another culture. So why do we have these differing perspectives on what is good and bad? It comes down to our conditioning.
00:21:03
Speaker
Our thoughts, our beliefs, what the what set of rules society agrees upon, what narrative we're told growing up that forms our perception of the world. why So like this is a societal issue as much as it is about an environmental or psychological issue.
00:21:28
Speaker
So if we're told that something is bad and when X happens to you, you should interpret that as a bad thing. Uh, well then therefore it's bad, but we could quite easily flip that around and say, no, this is good and teach society to to think about things a different way. And then therefore we see it as a good thing and we don't get affected by it as much. So like pointing to something as a bad experience and that bad experience negatively affected me. And I hold onto to that for the rest of my life. And it manifests as a trauma is.
00:22:10
Speaker
so far removed from how understanding how nature actually works. And when we think about it this way, we actually do ourselves a disservice because
Critique of Emotional Trauma Theory
00:22:28
Speaker
if an emotional trauma causes an illness, it means certain it's it means certain things. It means that
00:22:48
Speaker
You are imperfect. That you cannot exist. It is actually an impossibility for you or anybody else to exist in this world without being exposed to an event that is traumatic. That will then cause you disease. So you are a victim of your very existence.
00:23:19
Speaker
What it also means is that you can be doing every single thing right. You can be exercising and eating well and having loving, caring, meaningful relationships and finding meaning and purpose in your life and wearing the right types of fabrics and minimizing your exposure to poisons and like doing all the things.
00:23:45
Speaker
But none of doing any of that is absolutely pointless because one day you can be walking down the street and a bad thing can happen to you and it will undo all of it. All that hard work and that preventative um healthcare care approach, that healthy living that someone's been doing, you just throw it in the bin.
00:24:08
Speaker
because someone caught you, cut you off in traffic and called you a loser and you took it to heart. And then 10 years later you get cancer because you got offended by it. And that's like a pretty, just like a, like ah just an offhand example. Like, so like, that's, that's a problem that your very existence um will cause you disease and that you're basically guaranteed to get it. You're a victim of your very existence and the things that happen to you, so you are a victim. this It breeds this victim mentality. um None of the things that you can that you do as a preventative approach matter, so stop doing them.
00:24:55
Speaker
because something bad will eventually happen to you and you're going to get sick anyway. So why waste your time eating well and exercising and doing whatever else? It means that mother nature is imperfect. It means that mother nature is out to get you.
00:25:12
Speaker
um Like all of these things are now like we must be able to address these things and account for these things. And it's like, it doesn't gel with me this idea because of all the issues that it raises. I don't think mother nature works that way.
00:25:42
Speaker
So I don't know. What are your thoughts on this? I'm just musing here. Sorry. Yeah, no, no, definitely. I think a distinction that I want to make, um, is that side I completely agree that health is not is not um or sorry nature is not good or bad. I think it is logical to say that you know nature is healthy and what is unnatural is unhealthy. um And that goes back to the originator of the um that Peel to Nature logical fallacy, Edward Moore, um in principle, Ethica.
00:26:22
Speaker
he was he made he wrote He wrote quite extensively on, you know, you can't even ascribe morality to health and disease because, you know, I think that what we know now about these disease processes is that they're not bad. You know, therere they're playing a very necessary role to achieve some sort of balance, um like a symptom, right? If you have a cough, you know, it's playing a role in trying to maybe get something out of your lungs.
00:26:53
Speaker
Um, so, uh, this is really, it's amazing, amazing, uh, thing to think about. Um, you know, when I'm thinking about, about this, uh, the other, the other point that you made was maybe us not having the mechanism of, uh, being able to process or manage this trauma or something of of that nature. Um,
00:27:21
Speaker
and And perhaps that lies in us not having the habits of the natural man. You know, if if we do exercise and we do nurture our relationships and we do eat whole, real foods, unadulterated as possible,
00:27:38
Speaker
um it seems to me that these individuals, no matter the trauma that they might have experienced, seem to be in very good health. right, uh, as close to that natural way of life as you can live. Maybe that, meant that is mechanism in and of itself. Um, and the other thought I just want to throw out there before I hand it back over to you is that took a EMDR course.
Modern Lifestyles and Trauma Processing
00:28:04
Speaker
It was really interesting. Um, it's with the, the eye movements. So you move your eyes back and forth and it helps you in theory process trauma, right? So you kind of, um,
00:28:18
Speaker
are able to own your experiences rather than have them own you. And, you know, they would describe it as being a cause of your behavioral issues, right? So um this eye movement, moving back and forth and processing, you know, they liken it to the REM sleep, right? So your eyes are moving while you're sleeping. It's an interesting thought and it resonates with a lot of people. ah But the other thing that I do know now is that Many people don't sleep very well because we are inundated by blue light. if but Most people are have it all the time. I was in Vancouver actually taking this course, ah quite a big city and it was bright all night. And even though we had blinds in the room, I was sleeping on my sister's couch, but you know, it was bright and I i wasn't sleeping very well. You know, I wasn't sleeping well at all. And perhaps, you know, I mean, I'm sure you asked the old psychoanalyst like,
00:29:17
Speaker
Freud or Jung, they would say, oh yeah, dreams are what helped us process these, these things. And we have a, you know, a population now that is not sleeping well. We're up on our phones, scrolling late at night. We don't, you know, we don't say goodbye to the blue light before bed. And, uh, when the sun goes down, that's when the, that that would be a natural thing. So perhaps that's one of the, these mechanisms of processing this stuff that we're lacking nowadays. I just curious about your thoughts on that.
00:29:48
Speaker
Yeah, many points to cover off there. ah
00:29:57
Speaker
So one thing that comes to mind is that if emotional trauma causes disease, you are not in control of your own health and wellbeing.
00:30:10
Speaker
Your health and wellbeing is determined by some external factor outside of you that you have absolutely no control over. That is almost a certainty. So from the moment you are born, you are essentially destined for disease and ill health because something will bad something bad will happen to you.
00:30:41
Speaker
That is a part of life. So that's a very defeatist way of looking at life. If emotional trauma causes disease, I think this idea may also be used as a scapegoat to keep us from looking at the true causes of illness.
00:31:05
Speaker
So there are some people out there who are claiming that basically every illness is caused by some kind of emotional event. Oh, if that's the case, well, you don't have to worry about the poisons being sprayed in the air and put into the water supply and how we're raping and pillaging the environment and how we're treating each other and how we're treating ourselves. And we don't have to worry about vaccines and the pharmaceutical industry. We don't have to worry about any of the things that we're doing.
00:31:33
Speaker
in regards to the way that we live and the materials that our houses are built out of and the clothes that we're wearing and the personal care products and the exhaust fumes from your car and the micro plastics. And like, you don't have to worry about any of that stuff. It's inconsequential because the emotional event is the problem. Like there are people who take it to that extreme that go, no, like every disease, every disease is caused by an emotional event.
00:32:02
Speaker
Like ah I think it may be used as a means of drawing people's attention away again from the true causes of illness. This is like the um psychological germ theory. but I can draw parallels between this idea about emotional trauma and germ theory. I really can.
00:32:31
Speaker
So that's another thought. but Let me, let me give you a real life example here. I was down at the park a few years ago with my puppy dog and he was like six weeks old. Could fit in the palm of my hand, his tiny little thing. And we took him down to the dog park and there were two twin girls there.
00:32:57
Speaker
And those those sisters, obviously, uh, and our little puppy, they were down there looking at dogs because they wanted to get a dog themselves and like, which dog should we get? So looking at all the different dogs and my little dog runs up to the girls and like jumps up on one. He's like this big, right? It doesn't even make it past her ankle jumps up on one of the girls and starts licking and and chewing on her, uh, ankle trying to play.
00:33:28
Speaker
And one of the girls loses it and she starts crying and she starts basically breaking down and screaming and runs off to her mother and basically has this episode.
00:33:41
Speaker
And then the other sister is there and she's like, oh my God, he's the cutest thing ever. I love him so much. Like picks him up and is having a great time. So here you have an event unfold in front of two people.
00:33:56
Speaker
And their responses are ah very, very different.
00:34:02
Speaker
So in 20 years time, that girl who got traumatized by a dog attack, a vicious dog, which has now left this imprint in her psyche.
00:34:15
Speaker
which remains unresolved because maybe mum didn't you know give her a big enough cuddle or tell her it's okay. or Like that trauma went unresolved and it stays there and it manifests as a physical disease. So in 20 years time as a late 20 something year old female, she gets Crohn's disease and it's all because of the vicious dog attack when she was seven.
00:34:40
Speaker
Yet her sister who was in exactly the same position who experienced the exact same event probably would never even remember that event. So it's not the event, even if if emotional trauma disease but if emotional trauma does cause disease, it's not the emotional it's not the event. It's your perception of the event. Yeah.
00:35:06
Speaker
And if it's your perception of the event, then why can't we change our perception about basically everything so that if something traumatic does occur, we're unaffected by it.
00:35:19
Speaker
um The other thing is, and and you mentioned like maybe there's something that has changed so that our capacity to deal with emotions, because we have emotions every single day. Our capacity to deal with and process those things has malfunctioned in some way. The inherent mechanism built inside us to basically process all the data that comes in on a daily basis doesn't work properly. Now, what could that be? Well, you said that dreams.
00:35:59
Speaker
are the way that the body processes emotional events or emotions. um We do this in our sleep. So what if exposure to synthetic or artificial light disrupts your circadian rhythm just enough so that now you can't process the events that happen to you on a daily basis, right? So now we're starting to get somewhere here.
00:36:27
Speaker
Now we're starting to try and figure out what the cause of the problem is. So let me use this analogy for you because it will help people to understand where I'm where i'm coming from here. Imagine there's a group of dark skinned people, say in like Africa or Australia or something, the native people that live there. And they can be out in the sun all day, every day, and never get burnt because they've got a skin color that is designed for that situation.
00:37:00
Speaker
But then one day something happens and the pigment in their skin starts to change and they all become albino. So they lose the dark pigment in their skin. And now they're starting to get burnt all the time. Would you point to the sun and go, the sun, it's really bad. We need to get rid of the sun. It's causing burning in people. Or would you go, why did the people's skin color change?
00:37:30
Speaker
Now, I know this is an extreme example, but I think I need to use extreme examples like this to get people to almost like shock them into understanding the um how illogical it is to think that an event or an experience that unfolds in front of you can somehow cause a disease.
00:37:51
Speaker
So you wouldn't point towards the sun and claim that that is the cause of the problem. The sun was always there. It was always there. So if it was going to be the cause of the problem, it would cause that problem before the skin color change, right? The only reason the sun is now having this negative effect on people is because something else changed to make this people's skin color change. So what was that thing? What was that thing?
00:38:22
Speaker
And when you identify, well, that is, you now find the cause of the problem. So this is a, we can draw a parallel here with emotional traumas. In nature, people don't get disease, but they've always been exposed to traumatic events. Sun's always been there, traumatic events have always been there, but then something changed.
00:38:48
Speaker
that we can no longer process these things that happen to us on a daily basis. Maybe we still can. Maybe we're just so off the mark and we believe that emotional trauma causes disease and we've become so fixated and we've adopted this erroneous belief that we believe it to be true.
Perception and Trauma
00:39:05
Speaker
Like it could just be that. Or it could be that, yeah, we're not getting exposed to enough sunlight.
00:39:16
Speaker
Our circadian rhythm is disrupted. so We're not getting we're not like watching the sun go down. We're not getting exposure to moonlight. like What effect does moonlight have on the body's capacity to regulate sleep and wake cycles and to get into the deep REM sleep and you can start processing these events that happen to you on a daily basis?
00:39:36
Speaker
ah What effects are things like caffeine having on people? What effects are things like electromagnetic frequencies having on people? What are effects of sleeping off the ground having on people, on like rubber latex foam mattresses? ah i mean like The number of things that could be disrupting our ability to deal and process with the events that transpire in front of us every day are vast.
00:40:07
Speaker
But I'm not convinced we can blame the event. I'm not convinced that we can then blame the human body and go, it's the human body's incapacity to exist in home yeah homeostasis with its surroundings. Because if that is true, we were set, we were built to fail.
00:40:30
Speaker
We were designed to fail. We were created to fail. And I just i find it very hard to um accept that position. So hopefully that helps you sort of understand where I'm coming from a little better.
00:40:56
Speaker
Liev, I've lost your sound. My bad. Um, if something alters the way that we process trauma, then it's not the trauma. It's the something that alters the process, right? It's, this is fundamentally the same logic that we've been using, uh, for the past few years that have got us to where we are now. Um, so we put that to rest, I think, uh, right then and there. So, um, but I do want to return to that first point that you we were speaking of there. Uh, and I think that this is.
00:41:29
Speaker
you know, sort of a well stated thing in the field of healing psychologically is that it's not what happens to you, but it's how you respond to it. And I think even the Stoics spoke about this. Um, and I think that perspective is is a big thing. Funny last week we had, uh, um, Abigail Puccioni And she, we were speaking about German new medicine and we talked about the two ways that German new medicine approaches healing and they approach it, you know, practically they approach it through, you know, here are the things that you can do to improve your situation. If you don't have enough money, you go and get another job, or if you don't, you know, you don't eat, right. Eat, right. If you don't work out, work out stuff like that. The other way to, um, heal from the German new medicine, new medicine standpoint was to
00:42:21
Speaker
work perceptually, right? So to change your perspectives perceptions on what happened. um And through this new perspective and new understanding on why these things happen to us, ah fundamentally, that's one of the ways that they help in resolving these conflicts, which, you know, the German New Medicine people and Dr. Hammer would probably say that ah is the cause of these biological responses in the body. Um, now I'm not a, I'm not overly well versed in German new medicine. Um, but I think that's generally what they're saying. And I think that, uh, you know, many people in the field, even like those, like on the forefront of this whole trauma movement, you like the Gabor Mathes and the, um, the people of that nature, the Bessel van der Kokes, they're talking more about,
00:43:18
Speaker
it being how you respond to something, not necessarily the event itself. And I think that actually gives the power back to the individual to realize, you know, we're not necessarily just victims to our environment. And I think that, um you know, when I think of ah like raising children, um you know, a child will respond the same way that the parent responds. So if, you know, a kid falls and scrapes their knee and you run over and you go, Oh no, are you okay? Are you okay? Oh my goodness. Are you like, that looks like it hurts so much. The kid's going to start balling, but I've seen a kid fall off a dock, hit the ground and the dad was like, Hey, well, look at you go. You're all right. Like, and then just kind of laughed it off and the kid got up, started running again. yeah You know what I mean? Like, um, and it's how you respond to the situation that, that
00:44:16
Speaker
It is the thing that gets imprinted in your body, I guess would probably be the mechanism. Um, so I think that's sort of, well, I think that's, that's what's said in the field. It's not necessarily the event. It's that it's how you respond. What would you, how would you respond to that? Uh,
00:44:41
Speaker
why is our response changed? Yeah, it's a good point. Why is our, why has our response changed? Because we never had this problem in the past. I think it's just a consequence of living in hyper-civilization. We're just detached, we're detached from reality. Liev is what I think it is. When you have a trauma, that's something that happened in the past.
00:45:17
Speaker
So maybe I'll ask you this question.
00:45:22
Speaker
Does the past exist? This is a deep question. It is a great question. And, you know, initially what I say is the past only exists in the present. So really no, because it's it's all happens in the present. Does the future exist? Same, same answer. So there's only the now.
00:45:48
Speaker
There's only the present moment, right? So this is another thing. When you look at a animal in nature, is it thinking about the worm that it didn't get last week or the bear that nearly caught it last week? And I was like, oh my God, there's a bear. It could be anywhere. And I better not leave the tree today. Like if I go out of my little hole in the tree, I'm going to get eaten by a bear. So I'm just going to sit here and oh my God, like, is an animal doing that?
00:46:20
Speaker
No, it's not thinking about what happened yesterday or an hour ago or a year ago. It's not worrying about what might happen tomorrow.
00:46:32
Speaker
It's living in the now. Like an eagle flying high in the sky, man, has got to be on. It's got to be in the moment. Because it's life depends on it. It's centered. It's focused. It's in the now. It's like, I'm hunting for food. I've got to get that food. Otherwise, I die and my offspring die. ah This is survival. it is It is switched on. It's locked in. It's in now. Humans used to live that way.
00:47:02
Speaker
Yes, they may have had like some ah attachments to but like the past and historical events and traditions and had meanings behind these things, but they weren't living in the past like we do now. They were really existing in the moment. And why were they existing at in the moment? Because they were in nature. So when you're in nature, that is something that basically automatically happens.
00:47:32
Speaker
if you're really detached from reality and really detached from nature, you can go outside and be thinking about what happened last week and you fail to see the nature around you. But when you're looking at nature and you're aware and you're present, your mind is there in the moment. So it's not thinking about last year or five years ago or 10 years ago. So when you're like,
00:48:00
Speaker
When does trauma hurt? When does emotional trauma hurt you? like this is this is It only hurts you when you're thinking about it. so When you're thinking about it, but maybe it doesn't hurt you when you're thinking about it. I don't know. um It's only a problem when you're thinking about it. so If you're thinking about it, it means you're living in the past.
00:48:22
Speaker
You're always thinking about it. I'm just stuck on that girl that dumped me when I was 21. I'm just stuck on it and I just can't stop. Yeah, of course, man. Of course, it's going to be a problem in your life because you're putting your emphasis and time and attention and focus on something that doesn't matter. like What happened in the past doesn't matter.
00:48:44
Speaker
what happened What may happen in the future doesn't matter. What really matters is the moment, the now. And yeah, this is just, this is how we exist. Naturally, this is our default setting, is being in the now.
Belief and Healing Power
00:49:04
Speaker
But society has shaped us and moulded us and conditioned us to exist outside of the now, to exist in these mythical places called the past and the future.
00:49:19
Speaker
like one One way in which it does that is that clever little device in your pocket called a mobile phone, which has now got a camera on it. and You take an image of basically every single thing that happens to you every minute of the day. like Some people do this, and then they'll spend their time when they have it free, just sitting there looking it at photos and going, oh, I remember when this happened. like You're not now. I was i was watching a um film clip.
00:49:45
Speaker
Um, just today, actually, of a concert that was, that happened in the eighties.
00:49:52
Speaker
There wasn't a single phone there, man, not a single mobile phone. There was just people in the moment enjoying the music for what it is being present in that moment. Yet today, people aren't even in the moment because they're too busy trying to get the perfect shot. They're focusing on the phone. They're not focusing on the guy in front of them belting out a tune.
00:50:14
Speaker
so like There's so many confounding factors here that must be accounted for before we can point to an event, before we can point to nature, and because that's essentially what people are doing. If they say the event is the problem, or even if it's like your perception is the problem,
00:50:36
Speaker
um like We're still pointing to the human body and saying that it's broken, that it's the you know that nature is wrong, nature is imperfect. It's very hard for me to accept that because no one's really been able to answer these questions logically and rationally. They've always got to invent rescue devices about why it is the case.
00:51:03
Speaker
So like one of these things that people use as evidence of emotional trauma causing disease is I went to a therapist and I had an illness and they did some um like life regression therapy and we found out that when I was seven years old, something happened that I forgot about.
00:51:30
Speaker
that the therapist identified as a problem and they worked me through it and I was able to bring up the emotion and release it. And now my condition's better. Therefore, because I got better from the therapy, it must have been that emotional event and the emotion that I attached to it that happened to me 30 years ago, that was the cause of the problem.
00:51:57
Speaker
But we can't use evidence of a intervention as evidence of the cause. For example, there are faith healers out there, mate. I'm sure you've seen like those massive churches where there's like thousands of people in the stadium.
00:52:24
Speaker
And there's the faith healer on stage and he's got a line of people with all these different ailments. And they walk up and he's like, I'm casting the demon out of you. It does all this stuff, right? You are healed and the person gets better and they swear that it actually happened. So is that proof of the demon?
00:52:46
Speaker
Is that proof that God just healed me instantaneously? No, it's not.
00:52:54
Speaker
What it is suggestive of is that maybe we have the power to heal ourselves from anything with our mind,
00:53:04
Speaker
but that can't be misconstrued as evidence of the cause. Because there could have been, like I say, a hundred people in that line at the faith healer.
00:53:15
Speaker
and their disease could have been caused by a hundred different things. Each person's disease was caused by something different, yet they all got better when they went and saw the faith healer. So the power of the mind is powerful enough to create a healing response, irrespective of what the cause is. But I think we get into some pretty yeah ah
00:53:46
Speaker
i I think it's a problem for people to use that experience as evidence of the cause. And that's what happens. Now, why is that so effective when people go in and see therapists? And I'm not saying that it's a bad thing. If that therapy works and you get better, awesome. Use it. Why not?
00:54:09
Speaker
not like trying to poo poo it, but let's not use that to add to the evidence base of why an emotional event is the problem. um But like the more elaborate you make an intervention, the better it works. So you walk into some like clinic,
00:54:26
Speaker
And they're telling you the spiel about, we're going to go into your subconscious and this is how it all works. And there's an imprint in you that has been there for 30 years. And we've just got to access that subconscious mind and get in there and pinpoint the thing. And then I'm going to go in there and pull it out. I'm going to bring that emotion up and you're going to feel it. And it's visceral, right? Because you're going to bring up an emotion in someone. So they're feeling this effect. it's like whoa So it adds to this sort of placebo effect.
00:54:53
Speaker
And you take them through these series of steps and they get better. And then the therapist is like, yeah, you got better because that trauma is gone. But I actually think what's happening is what is, what is common between the therapist releasing the trauma and the faith healer or the witch doctor or the person taking a sugar pill in a placebo trial or getting a sham surgery. Cause I know people get better when they get like a placebo surgery.
00:55:23
Speaker
What is common across all of those things? It is that the intervention shitn led the person to the point where they accessed and they activated the power of their belief system, the know so other the placebo effect, to heal themselves. So the intervention does not matter.
00:55:48
Speaker
i could I could start a therapy today called the Reuters Method, and it could be that at 7 o'clock in the morning, you have to drink three. um quarters of a mil of apple cider vinegar with a pinch of paprika and some um organic honey. But while you're drinking, you've got to stand on your head. And then after you've done that, you've got to go into a deep meditative state for five minutes and 47 seconds. Not five minutes, 48 seconds, because then something else in your brain goes awry and all that hard work's undone. And then after you do that, you've got to stand up and you have to jump up and down 10 times
00:56:22
Speaker
Spin around and then sit down and go and run yourself a warm bath and lay there for 20 minutes and that's going to heal you. but so The more elaborate you make an intervention, the more likely people are going to get an effect from it because they think once they do it, they're going to unlock the the magic of the intervention.
00:56:43
Speaker
right And you've got to say these 10 words and you've got to say this positive affirmation. You've got to say it just right because there's power in the words. So people do it and they believe that what they've done is the thing, but all in fact that is doing is getting them to activate the power of their belief.
00:57:04
Speaker
so Yeah. If that is the case, we hold the power inside ourselves. We don't have to outsource to anybody because if it is the power of belief that's doing this, all we need to do is go inside, believe in ourselves enough that we can heal ourselves and then it is done. Right? So we could basically raise people that way.
00:57:31
Speaker
We could condition them um through societal changes to say, if you do become ill, you can go inside, ask yourself the question, what is it that is wrong with me? And what do I need to do to heal myself? And whatever that answer is, when you act upon it, you will get better. So if you condition people that way, then they will. Right? It's the same thing that's being done with disease. It's like when you come in contact with a germ, you're going to get sick.
00:57:57
Speaker
If we condition people to produce an illness with their mind, we can condition people to reverse an illness with their mind. So, sorry, mate. I know I've been going on a bit here, but I just thought I'd get all that out while I was at the tip of my tongue. I don't know. That was amazingly helpful. i think I think I now have a really good understanding of of where you're coming from. And you know I just like to say that you know I use the Roytus method every morning and I've healed all my ailments from it. And I now sell a course on the Roytus method, actually. it's only $5,000 a month to enroll in the membership. So um for all the listeners out there. um It could work, mate. We could sell that for sure. um Probably could. No, but I think you make ah ah a really good point. um Really, really amazing points actually. And it gives the power really back to the the individual and um power of belief is is strong and
00:58:54
Speaker
You know, if people were to ask me, you know, what should I do to heal? You know, my answer is do what you believe is going to work. You know, it it really is. It's, it's, it's, whatever you think is going to work, you should do it. If you are a diehard modern medicine follower, you know, science all the way materialism, then you better go and take that pharmaceutical drug because Any of that heebie-jeebies stuff is not going to work for you. You know, and it's probably only the placebo that's going to help you at this point. Um, hopefully the, you know, you could probably will your way out of the poisoning. Maybe I don't know. Um, yeah, I mean, doing, doing what you believe is going to, going to work. But what I like about this, this message is that it's fully centered around this, this whole, our, our, our need to take responsibility and our ability to heal.
00:59:49
Speaker
um, autonomously, you know, we, we have the power, we have the power as individuals, um, it's within us. And, um, I think you raise another good point about a good practitioner, a good practitioner should, you know, let their client or patient know that they have the power.
Holistic Health vs. Psychological Causes
01:00:09
Speaker
They, if anything, they need to be able to convince the person they're working with the individual that they're working with that they have that within them, you know, any practitioner that be.
01:00:19
Speaker
that's around there saying, you know, you know I'm healing you, that that's not a very good practitioner at all. you know If you are gonna work with someone, ah you need to make sure that they are you know instilling that belief, that it's not them, it's you are healing yourself, always, always, always. And I think that's a great message. And I know that we talk a lot about this sort of stuff probably from the opposite lens here on the channel, but um so I know a lot of the listeners, I can't wait to hear what they have to say, but Um, yeah, I think it's important that, you know, we, we got to think about this stuff. We got to think about the stuff to avoid dogma. Um, and I think that, you know, there is a rising school of thought where we're being led to ignore, you know, our habits are taught the toxicities, the deficiencies, whatever it may be, because it's just psychological. So you don't have to do anything for your health or you don't have to live naturally. you All you gotta do is.
01:01:18
Speaker
you know, do this method and heal yourself psychologically. You know, that's sort of something that's being pushed quite a bit. Um, and I think he raised a great point that that's just another dogmatic way of thinking. And we're not, we're not moving away from the germ theory at all with these, with this, uh, new paradigm. And, uh, we're not moving towards, you know, some sort of understanding, some sort of true science, some sort of true understanding of our realm.
01:01:47
Speaker
ah If we're gonna if we're gonna reduce everything to this ah To this idea that our psychology these traumatic events are what cause all of these diseases um So I think I think ah what we're talking about here is is is a is a philosophy it's a it's a complete it's it's a It's we're trying to get to the to the root of what's happening, you know, so um And Daniel obviously is so eloquent in the way that he explains these things and his logic is so phenomenal, um the way that he lays this out for all of us here. And I'm just so grateful to have you on because it certainly opened my eyes up today and um it is necessary that we take these steps if we're trying to develop some sort of understanding of our realm. It doesn't make sense that
01:02:46
Speaker
Two people can face a same event and not experience the same outcome. You know, it doesn't make sense that, you know, some traumas cause illness and some traumas don't. And we're just getting out of the realm of, you know, something that's tangible and concrete, uh, at that point. and And we're moving away from some sort of real understanding because then it's, there's no, it's all sort of, uh,
01:03:17
Speaker
yeah Who can explain it the best? Who can convince it's rhetoric, right? we're we're Who can convince us that this is true, right? It's like, that's what the the criticism of the psychoanalyst back in the day was, was, you know, it was just a scapegoat that, you know, it was just some sort of, as the Freud would say, it's, you know, unhealed mother wound or whatever. And Jung would say something else, and it it didn't matter who you were talking to. They all had their own answers.
01:03:45
Speaker
um Now, interestingly, you know, and people get results too, which is interesting. People get results, which I, which I think is interesting and it's impossible to deny that, that there's a lot of people out there that from the psychological perspective of alone, they try to heal there and they get results. But I think we're getting back to that power of belief. We're getting back to it is the individual. Um, and so amazing. I just, uh, at this point, you know, I want to ask for your final thoughts, anything that you want to add to this discussion here. Um,
01:04:16
Speaker
Anything you want to comment on ah that I said there either, go ahead, floor is yours. Yeah, a couple of things come to mind. So the first is that if a trauma causes disease, you can go and heal that trauma today.
01:04:35
Speaker
And what's stopping you from walking out of that practitioner's office and something else unfolding in front of you that now leaves another emotional scar and you're right back to square one. So you're chasing your tail forever. You are a victim. Live in fear. Like what you can essentially do is.
01:05:02
Speaker
If you think about germ theory, there is a germ lurking in the shadows, waiting to get you. It's going to pounce. It's there. It's just waiting for the right time. It's just a matter of when, not if. There is nothing that you can do about it. You could quite easily replace germ with trauma.
01:05:27
Speaker
There's a trauma. It's just around the corner. Who knows when it's going to appear in your life and it's going to happen to you.
Living in Harmony with Nature
01:05:38
Speaker
Demoralizes people. It keeps people scared. It keeps people in the victim mentality. It keeps people living in the past rather than the present. We can exist in this world free of disease.
01:05:53
Speaker
Disease is a man-made construct. Disease is a consequence of hyper-civilization. Disease is a consequence of living in opposition to nature. That is it. I don't think we need to, like, obviously we do need to sit here and analyze it and have these discussions um because there are a lot of people out there who don't understand these things.
01:06:19
Speaker
The other day I was out somewhere and people were putting sunscreen and ah like sunglasses on. I was like, oh man, there's still just so many people out there who don't get any of this stuff. So we have a lot of work to do and that's why these discussions are important. But we have to be putting the right messaging out there because if we destroy one dogma,
01:06:41
Speaker
We dismantle this doctrine of say like germ theory, for example, and then we go and replace it with something else that is just as erroneous and is built on false foundations. Like this idea of emotional trauma causing disease, like we're right back to where we started from. We haven't progressed at all. We've just replaced one broken a theory with another. That's why I think we really need to be careful about what we're saying.
01:07:09
Speaker
and what our perspectives are and what we're teaching people, um because there are a lot of people attaching to this idea. And I think maybe they're leading themselves down the garden path. And when you attach to an idea so closely and so preciously, it can be really difficult to detach yourself from that. So I think um that's why we need to be mindful and and careful.
01:07:36
Speaker
when we're having these discussions. Let's think about what's really going on. Let's try and identify the true cause of the problem. so If it is the artificial lighting, or it is the fact that we're not getting exposure to moonlight, or that Maybe um we don't have a sufficient community in our lives, or we don't have a sufficient and strong enough family unit in our lives that when something does happen, we have our elders there to say, hey, that's okay. This is a part of life. This happens. It's it's okay.
01:08:12
Speaker
And then that night you get together with your family and you sit around the fire and you tell stories and you do your dancing and you come together and you allow the events of that day to be discussed and get it off your chest.
01:08:26
Speaker
so you are told that it's okay to feel your emotions and experience anger when you feel anger and to cry when you feel sad and to laugh when you're happy rather than not doing those things. um like These are all the things that I think we really need to look at under a ah magnifying glass and a microscope to say, what is really going on? And I think when we do that, we will come to the conclusion that our forefathers came to who were, who incepted this idea of naturopathic medicine or natural medicine, or the nature cure method, who basically stated over a hundred years ago, 130 odd years ago, that disease is a consequence of living in opposition to nature.
01:09:21
Speaker
That is it. So we can spend time and money and resources and effort trying to unlock the mechanisms by which these things work or how they work. But by doing that, we're just going to delay the action that needs to be taken irrespectively of what the mechanism is. So we don't need to understand how and why things work the way they do. We just need to know that living this way.
01:09:50
Speaker
in this sick toxic Western society is unsustainable. We need to make some inspired change to get back to basics and living in harmony with nature again. So that's my concluding remarks. I appreciate you giving me the opportunity. I really do. Yeah, no, well, this this has been amazing. And as always, ah you bring a beautiful, fresh, challenging perspective to to the whole field. And ah I know that We appreciate you very much and we appreciate your time more than anything. This has been a, this has been a great discussion. Thanks so much, Lee. I appreciate it, man. Always. Yeah. I want to thank you all for listening. You should all know that this is not medical advice or psychotherapeutic advice or psychological advice. Any advice of any kind is for informational purposes only.
01:10:41
Speaker
Also remember, we're all responsible side for being capable of thinking, criticizing, and understanding absolutely anything. We the people and the greater forces are together self-healer, self-governable, self-teachers, and so much more. Make sure you reach out with any questions, criticism, comments, concerns in order to find me on Instagram. If you did like it, give us a review. That's a great way to help support the podcast. Give us a comment if you're over on YouTube and a subscribe. We had a thousand subscribers there, so I really appreciate you all.
01:11:06
Speaker
ah We're doing a separate book giveaway on the YouTube, so make sure you go over there and subscribe. We're giving away The Structure of Scientific Revolutions by Thomas Kuhn. Yeah, give us a share more than anything. If you've been around and you like to podcast, share it with a friend, your crazy uncle, anything like that is ah a great way to support us as well. We really appreciate you all for checking it out today. Just remember, there are two types of people in the world. Those believe they can, those believe they can't, and of course, they're both correct. All right, guys, thanks for listening. Take care.