Transcript
Speaker: Welcome everybody to another episode of the Beyond Terrain podcast. I am your host, Leo Dalton. If you're new around here, consider following the show or subscribing. And if you enjoy the show, leaving a review or a comment helps immensely. Best way to support the show, obviously, is by sharing your voice matters and spreading these ideas.
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Speaker: Today, guys, we have a great guest that I've been looking forward to having on for quite some time now. couldn't come at a better time. You know, I really think that this is something that is of the utmost importance.
Speaker: you know We've referenced structured water so many times. I'm really looking forward to kind of getting into exactly what we're talking about when we say that today. um yeah we have like Our guest today is is an extremely esteemed gentleman. I think he's doing some of the most important science, true science that's taken place today. so I'm just really grateful for his time, really grateful that he's coming on to to share a little bit of about his work. So Dr. Pollack, thank you so much for your time and and all the wisdom that you're going to share with us today.
Speaker: Well, I'm happy to be with you, Liam. And um yeah, let's go from there. Sure. Absolutely. hang um Good. So all my guests, I ask, what is health? Just to get a little definition.
Speaker: can take this in any direction that you'd like, really, how it manifests, what it looks like, how are we supposed to be healthy in this day and age. I'll give you the floor and and you can take it any direction that you'd like. Oh my goodness, the floor is really is really open. um Well, you know I don't have any great wisdom to share about what is health.
Speaker: um Health is proper ah proper function. ah it's ah you know Our kidneys are working the way they are, our brain is working the way the way it should be, et cetera, et cetera. um and Unfortunately, the health of our our nation and health of the world is really declining because we're not but not functioning. and and And so, you know, something is wrong with with our our our system.
Speaker: And i I could go on, you know, and and speak about that, but but it's a little bit off topic. i I guess... I guess if I had to speculate, i I would say that um the the ah ancient traditions knew a lot more about health and than we do.
Speaker: um And, um you know, we're we're dominated by the pharmaceutical companies who are in in for making profit. And um And they advertise galore. We hear so many ads for this pharmaceutical and that pharmaceutical.
Speaker: You know, and there's some question whether these pharmaceuticals really work the way the way ah they market them. And so our health is declining. And so ah nature um yeah Our and in environment ah is undoubtedly playing a role because we're getting sicker and sicker.
Speaker: um So it's got to be has to be a big change in the the way we we think about health. I actually think that structured water, so to speak, we we have different terms and we've been studying this now for a quarter of a century, ah has a lot to do with it.
Speaker: And modern modern medicine um has no idea of this. In fact, I like to say that the National Institutes of Health, the esteemed organization that funds research in health, I think that the word water is actually not in their language, not in their lexicon or in their dictionary. They've never heard of it.
Speaker: um you know, and the assumption has been that ah water has nothing to do with health, um that that health um is is is determined ah by the proteins and such that are involved, and and we have to make sure everything is working well. but But the idea that water might play anything more than then the assumed role that it's just a background carrier of the more important molecules of life.
Speaker: And we found that is absolutely untrue. It's so untrue um that it's really a paradigm shift um to think about the role of water in health.
Speaker: And I argue um that structured water is central, central absolutely central to to health. It's an energy source, ah surprisingly, that we have evidence for it. And you know I can talk about that.
Speaker: um And it's critical for all the reactions that take place inside this cell. So if if that idea has merit, I think it does because we have a lot of evidence If that idea has merit, then the an understanding of health will take a different turn, a 180 degree turn.
Speaker: So maybe maybe that's sufficient for the moment, speculation about what is health. We all know it, but but we don't really address that problem on a regular basis. What is health?
Speaker: Interesting question. Yeah. a Great way to to start us off here, honestly. um ah Getting back to the first thing that you said, it's our bodies functioning properly. you know I think that's really important. That even ties into the idea of water, right? Because if we have water in our body, but it's dead water or bulk water, whatever you want to call it, it's not functioning properly. And you know water is extremely fundamental to life in general, right? So You know, that's why this conversation is so important, right? If structured water is the proper functioning, so to speak, of of water in the body, that that certainly would be a ah huge component of health. So I'd love to just hear a little introductory on what structured water is. We call it exclusion zone water, easy water.
Speaker: ah There's been different names, you know, over the years, obviously. um There's quite an interesting history to this whole study of of some sort of structured water.
Speaker: But I'd just love to hear, you know, what what it even is. What are we even talking about today? It starts, ands I would say, with say but a guy named Gilbert Ling, L-I-N-G.
Speaker: Gilbert came, a scientist, came to the U.S. in 1948. was, um there was a cohort ah of people chosen by and by the Chinese government to promising young scientists to study or a ah extend their careers in the United States.
Speaker: Three of them, three of the four won Nobel Prizes. And the fourth one was Gilbert Ling, who um many assert should have won at least two Nobel Prizes for his contributions.
Speaker: I met him by accident. I was a um i was invited to to a conference to honor the scientific career memorialize scientific career of a guy named ernst who was a hungarian scientist he had two interests one was muscle contraction and the other was water inside the cell and um and i at the time i had been working on muscle contraction on studies of of the proteins in in in muscle that somehow bring about contraction.
Speaker: um And his views, it turns out, were not so different from my views. um And my views were that the prevailing model ah put forth by a famous Nobel laureate, a godlike figure, Sir Andrew Huxley, member of the Huxley family, president of the Royal Society, the kind of guy when he walked in,
Speaker: there was a hush, it was like God had just entered the room. And um we had evidence that his theory was wrong, ah just didn't fit the data. um And Ernst also, so I was invited ah to give a presentation on muscle, I did, i thought it was, it went reasonably well.
Speaker: ah But then came water, the second subject of Ernst. And there was Gilbert Ling. And I'd heard of him before, but I i i really knew nothing. and And I got to tell you, I was blown away by his presentation. He said that water inside the cell, that's where the term structured water, I think, began. He said the water was not like water in the glass.
Speaker: Water in a glass, the molecules are randomly dispersed and bouncing around a furious number of times per second or per femtosecond even.
Speaker: um you know But he said, no, it's not like that. He said that the water inside the cell was ordered. He called it structured. He said, if you think of a water molecule,
Speaker: like um like ah a dipole, you know, like a little bean with plus at one end and minus at the other. And I think most water scientists would concur with that. So you can imagine because of the plus at one end and minus at one end, you can stack them.
Speaker: And he said, that's what the water is like inside the cell. It's so-called structured. And um you're you're you're waiting to say something? i I can see on your... No, no. Okay. So let me let let me continue.
Speaker: um ah Well, I was intrigued and he presented abundant evidence that, and in fact, that this was correct. And then came other speakers who ah who had something else to say about water, generally supporting and providing evidence that Ling was correct.
Speaker: So I was just mesmerized because I thought this is really important. you know if Cell biology conventionally is based on the idea that the water inside the cell is just liquid water and nothing more.
Speaker: But if Ling and these other people are correct, then, you know, and it's a different story. And and and you're you're building an incorrect foundation. And if you, you know, it's it's hard to to build sound structures on foundations that are cracked ah you know so So I didn't trust myself because I'm easily and impressed or engaged with interesting ideas.
Speaker: So I gave one of his books when I returned to Seattle, I gave one of his books to my students. And um there were, I think, three of them or four of them.
Speaker: And they came back with a uniform response. They said, number one, ah this is it interesting and it seems to be supported by a lot of evidence.
Speaker: and And number two, if this is right, then everything else is wrong. And you know you can imagine how that would be an attractive situation to delve into.
Speaker: We had no money. I mean, we had money to study muscles. We had no money to study water. um So I'm thinking, what can we do? And the first thing to do is write a book ah because Gilbert Ling, as brilliant as he was, he he passed about five years ago at age of hunt just about ah just shy of 100.
Speaker: yeah And in his writing style was not one that was geared to people like you and me. um ah We have to struggle to understand what he had to say. And I kind of think that that maybe in the Chinese language, the word editing doesn't exist.
Speaker: ah So... So you know he would sit down first at the typewriter, then at the word processor. He'd bat something out, and he'd send it off to the publisher, and the publisher would publish it, and no editing.
Speaker: Well, you and i know that anything you write has got to be edited. i might I might write something. ah first draft and look at it a month later and say, what the hell is this? i What have I written? I can't understand what I had in mind.
Speaker: And so everything needs needs to be edited multiple times to be understandable. So I wrote the book. It's called Cells, Jails, and the Engines of Life. And the idea the idea was was to explain the essence of, oh, well, thank you. yeah The essence of, it's got a nice cover, wouldn't you say? Yeah.
Speaker: Oh, it's is such an appealing cover. What an amazing read it was. and Well, thank you. i appreciate but that. Well, that was a while ago. and and the response And the response was varied, or I should say polarized. Some people said...
Speaker: oh, this is this is Gilbert Ling all over again. And everybody knows that this guy's a crackpot, so pay no attention to it. You'll find a couple of reviews like that.
Speaker: And at the other end, there there was a prominent cell biologist from Harvard University. you know If it's from Harvard, then we're all obliged to pay attention to it. He said, this is a 304-page preface to the future of cell biology.
Speaker: That one I like better. So I'm not sure how much impact that book made, but ah I did' did my thing. And it turned out that Gilbert Ling hated it and I was chagrined because I thought, you know, i I'm i talking about his ideas and trying to make them known to the the community outside. But, you know, he said, i didn't quote him enough.
Speaker: um And I kind of think that and he wanted his name in every paragraph. Yeah. And you know I made it clear this is not my idea, this is Gilbert Ling's idea, and i i'm but I stole his thunder.
Speaker: It took 10 years of trying to get him back to friendship. and And I did finally when when we actually demonstrated experimentally that his general idea was correct, that there is a kind of long range order ah like a liquid crystal in in the cell.
Speaker: So and I'm happy that and finally we we became friends again. But anyway, so a year or two after that, we did get some money and we started studying water.
Speaker: And So and to kind of summarize, we found that generally his idea of, quote, structured water was correct. There is structure. It's not like water in a glass.
Speaker: But we went on to find some features that I think are... extremely important to differ from what Gilbert Ling had hypothesized. There is the order, but it's different, different from what Gilbert Ling was thinking about. and and And so um the first thing we we did, and I'm going to explain why we call it easy water, fourth phase water, instead of structured water.
Speaker: Structured was his his idea, his his title, and and yes, it is structured. But But what we found is in our initial experiments is, you know, if something is is a liquid crystal um and the liquid crystal tends to be pure, then any contaminants that you'd have in the water or whatever is the precursor have got to be excluded. Right.
Speaker: and and And that's what we found. We found that we started with with a suspension of little tiny particles called microspheres in water.
Speaker: um And we plunked into the chamber containing that, we plunked in a gel. And we're looking for some kind of order. And and if if it's really ordered and pure, then it ought to expel those microspheres.
Speaker: And that's what we found. We found that next to every surface of that gel, um the microspheres were excluded, leaving leavinging a zone that was microsphere-free.
Speaker: And it was substantial. It wasn't one or two molecular layers. It was like 100,000 molecular layers or so. you know, you could see it this exclusion ah zone with your naked eye.
Speaker: So um a colleague from Australia ah said, you know, you ought to give this a name instead of having to go back and explain how you how you saw this. Just make it easy. Why don't you call it Exclusion Zone?
Speaker: So we called it Exclusion Zone. And, you know, the advantage of Exclusion Zone, easy. It's easy to remember. And so we thought, this is cool. It's easy easy to to remember. And so we gradually called it easy.
Speaker: then Later, as we did experiments, look at the physical chemical properties of the water in in this zone, we found that they were and entirely different from those of ordinary liquid water.
Speaker: So because of that, we began calling it fourth phase water, a phase of water that it was neither liquid nor solid nor vapor.
Speaker: So we called it the fourth phase. um I don't know if that's a good name or bad name, but we use fourth phase EZ water interchangeably.
Speaker: um EZ is, it just rolls off the tongue that more easily. So I think that's the one that we pre prefer, but it's the same essentially as structured water, except that we found we found features that are different. So what what are those different features?
Speaker: Well, first of all,
Speaker: um That zone, when we probed that zone, we found that it was typically negatively charged, not neutral. Water's neutral, this zone is is negative. So we scratched our collective heads and said, well, wait a second, how is it possible that you start with something neutral and you wind up with something that's charged. The only possible explanation is if that's the reason that EZ is negatively charged, it must be a positively charged zone somewhere else because the two should add up to zero because you started with zero.
Speaker: And we found that immediately beyond um the exclusion zone were positive charges. and And so we kind of understood that the way this zone forms is is that the positive charges are ah ejected from water and and they're going to lodge in the ordinary water, ah leaving leaving the EZ as negative.
Speaker: So you've got a negative EZ and you've got a positive zone beyond it. That's a battery. and um And if you have a battery, you know you you have to ask, well, how does the battery get charged?
Speaker: There's gotta be a kind of energy in the battery. So you know your cell phone, you plug in your cell phone at night and it's working in the morning, but if you forget, then you know the battery battery is worn down and you have to start all over again, it won't work.
Speaker: so So all batteries need some kind of charging. And we couldn't figure out um where where the charging comes from. And it was a young undergraduate student in the lab who, I don't know, he was he was either very curious or bored or something. And he was it was doing an experiment similar to what what I just described, putting a gel in the water with microspheres.
Speaker: um And he saw a lamp, a gooseneck lamp sitting right next to him. So he turned on the lamp and shined it on ah and the chamber and and the region that was illuminated, the exclusion zone grew um abundantly, like a factor of three or four times.
Speaker: ah So he called me in and um I took a look and I said, this is amazing. you know you You've identified the source of energy as light. And the idea is not so preposterous because, you know, plants live on light, right? And so what what's so strange about that?
Speaker: And we found it was, ah we did further investigation to figure out which wavelength of light, because an incandescent lamp contains ah wide spectrum of wavelengths.
Speaker: And we found that um that it was actually infrared, long wavelength. that were most ah profound, that that affected it most profoundly.
Speaker: And we could actually get, with very modest amount of infrared light, we can expand the exclusion zone by 10 times. So it's really powerful. And infrared light is is all around us.
Speaker: You know, anything that has ah temperature that exceeds absolute zero is generating some kind of infrared light. and the military uses it for nightlight. You know, you can't see anything, ah but you you use an infrared ah visualization, camera, or whatever, and you can pick up a beautiful image of everything. So if I had my infrared camera, I not only see you, but I see the blackboard behind you and and and to your right whatever is hitting is that a flower pot i think um i'd see yeah okay now see that too and blackboard and so um yeah yeah so there's plenty of it around which means which means that there's plenty of easy water because that's the energy that's used to charge the easy battery so to speak so
Speaker: I guess those are, i think i'll I'll stop here because i didn't mean this to be a monologue, but a dialogue. That's great. So I've given you a kind of basis for what what is structured water, easy water, fourth phase water.
Speaker: And it's got lots of potential because it has energy um and and there's more. ah So ay sure I leave it for your next question. Yeah.
Speaker: Like, obviously, this has major implications on how we understand our biological systems. Obviously, it's kind of reshapes in a way what we even know about cell biology.
Speaker: um There's many different things that kind of come with the, you know, the inclusion of this easy water into our understanding. It truly is a paradigm shift.
Speaker: um you know, obviously you talk about things like the membrane, cell membranes, you talk about pumps and channels, the way that ions are attracted to different things in the cell, right? And ah phase transition, you know, how how the water is interacting with proteins and how this is a a mechanism of action for, i you know, how the cell can respond to such subtleties, right? And I think, you know,
Speaker: I think that's kind of a ah really central point is this, the the subtle subtle nature of the easy water, you know, because we we sort of have this way of thinking where if it's not in your face and huge, it's not going to affect us. Like things like um like electromagnetic frequencies, non-native ones, right? Like the more subtle ones that, you know, people say that these have health implications, right?
Speaker: But then, you know you know, you go and look and see what the Google says and it's like, oh, well, they don't have enough power to have any implication on our biological systems. But through this understanding of the easy water, we understand that there is this way that we can pick up on these subtle cues, right? Like you're saying, infrared, how it can even charge this. It's the it's the source of energy, right? So I'd be just curious to hear, like, what are the most important implications that this has? Like, how does this change our view on cell biology and biology and in general?
Speaker: Yes, thank you. That's a really good question. um Okay, let me let me explain. um So the cells in your body um have easy, they're they're filled with easy water and easy water is negatively charged. And so the first point in in response to something you raised early on and in and in your comment is that's the reason why cells have negative charge.
Speaker: They're filled with easy water. and it's not pumps and channels in the membrane. um And I've argued half dozen reasons why why that idea, which is believed by essentially everybody is erroneous.
Speaker: And i I do think it's it's erroneous. You know, you you can take like the inside of a cell is gel like um you you can look at for example raw egg white you know um it's like a gel uh it's it's not uh liquid with water um and and um um You know, that that being being the case,
Speaker: um if if it's if the water is, ah well, that being the case, if you take a gel, it's out no membrane and therefore no pumps, no channels, and you stick electrode in, you get the same result, same electrical potential as as in a cell. So it's hard to argue that in in a cell it's the membrane that's doing the the work or membrane pumps or or channels because you get the same result in a gel that has no membrane and and no pumps and channels.
Speaker: It's sort of logical. And there are a half dozen other reasons why why that fails. And I don't want to go into that because um it's sort of peripheral to two what i want um but I want to talk about.
Speaker: And so if the cell and is full of easy water, which means structured water, yeah and it's like a liquid crystal. Liquid crystals are, you know, kind of like ice, liquid ice, and not much can happen in a liquid crystal. You can't have molecules bouncing around or ah suspended molecules of two different types merging with one another to create some function.
Speaker: it's ah It's basically functionless. So in order to ah in order to have function, it this needs to undergo a transition to something different. And we found ah that it does, exactly. And so what happens is when the cell moves into action, you could think of a muscle cell, for example.
Speaker: And at first, the muscle ah is is not contracting. And the water is easy water, structured water. It can't do anything. But what happens, and I ah provide...
Speaker: a half dozen examples in the Sales and Gels book that it undergoes a phase so-called phase transition, an idea that that is very well known among physical chemists, it's routine, you know it's it's like two plus two, ah but not known to many biologists.
Speaker: But I provide provided evidence that that's what happens when the cell ah becomes activated. so So when a muscle cell, for example, becomes activated, the water changes radically. It goes from the structured EZ water to ordinary liquid water.
Speaker: And then when the contraction is over, goes back again to to where it was. So this transition is the essence of biological action. It's what happens. and um and And in fact, those who are familiar with the so-called action potential can understand this because um when when the cell is in its quiescent state, ah um its electrical potential is minus 50 to 100 millivolt. It's negative. Every cell, I think every cell, but I haven't examined every cell. I've got...
Speaker: you know, as a generality, they're negatively charged. And then when when the transition occurs to ordinary liquid water, the potential goes then from negative to zero.
Speaker: And that's well known. It's called the action potential. But it's it's considered to be a completely independent process of of of what the cell does. For example, in the muscle cell, it would be contraction. It's considered...
Speaker: ah of unrelated. It's just a trigger. But actually, it's not just a trigger. it It's an inevitable outcome of when the cell goes from or transitions from negatively charged easy water um to ordinary water.
Speaker: so So that's just maybe that's a kind of side issue, but one that I find ah interesting because I learned so much when I was studying and physiology about action potentials.
Speaker: And now people are and It seems that the um in the world of science, the subject of physiology is not no longer of of interest because all problems are solved.
Speaker: But no, they're not solved. or I mean, I'm proposing a ah different solution. so So then this transition is absolutely critical because when the cell undergoes a transition from um easy to ordinary liquid water,
Speaker: uh everything changes and liquid water you know substances can diffuse easily they can do um any any number of uh of things and and what happens most importantly is that the proteins which are in a kind of stretched or extended state next to easy water they're kind of forced into uh into an extended state, but when the easy water is gone, then they fold into into energetically the the the most favorable position. And that folding is what brings about the action of the cells. So for a muscle cell, it's that protein folding
Speaker: that brings about the contraction. You see, in a secretory cell, it's that folding that that creates the secretion, et cetera, et cetera. So really important.
Speaker: And then, After the action is over, the cell then returns to its initial state, structured water, extended proteins, and it's ready ready for its next um ah bout of of action.
Speaker: That's the energy requiring step, you know to to take to create charge, a negative negative charge, and and also to create order, ordering ordering going from chaos to order always requires energy input.
Speaker: You know, it's like, like you, your, your office, your office is pretty neat, but you know, you, you kind of let papers hang out here and there and all kinds of,
Speaker: of paraphernalia, and then you got to put in some energy to create neatness again. you know So so it's ah it's a general principle. so So that energy um is used to basically restructure the water and then you're back at the initial condition again.
Speaker: If you don't have enough energy to do that, then your cell is not back to its optimum condition. And if that's the case, then your cell is pathological or at least dysfunctional.
Speaker: And that's really important because um you know it leads leads to the hypothesis that if you if you if you have dysfunction and you wanna create function from dysfunction, you need to build easy water.
Speaker: And building easy water is is pretty straightforward. There are um at least a half dozen expedients that you could use to build easy water. um um and and um and And following from that,
Speaker: You know, i've I am in the process of developing and inducing evidence for the the idea that that there's a common theme to cell dysfunction, and that is a dearth of easy water.
Speaker: And I think it occurs or it may occur in every organ in the body um that it might be ah lack of easy water or you might call it dehydration that's responsible for dysfunction and pathology.
Speaker: And that that applies as we age. You know, we get wrinkles. We're dried out. We're dehydrated. And we're more prone to various kinds of illnesses than our young people.
Speaker: So that's where it's coming. And I ah just wrote a paper about cancer. um And I think ah cancer is an extreme ah of that um generalized dysfunction.
Speaker: it's It's electrical potential. Cancer cells have an electrical potential extremely small. You know, a typical cell in your body and maybe my body, 50 millivolts to 100 millivolts, depending on the kind of cell.
Speaker: But cancer cells now have been studied, of course, galore. um And it turns out that the electrical potential in cancer cells, in numerous studies, in cancer cells is like minus 10 or minus 20 millivolts instead of minus 50 to 100.
Speaker: And studies have been carried out um to to understand what is the basis for cell division, you know which is what cancer is. it The cells keep dividing. And it's exactly that. It's a reduction in the magnitude of the electrical potential.
Speaker: so So I view cancer as an extreme of that generality where it's lacking a small magnitude electrical potential, meaning ah not much easy water.
Speaker: um and And therefore, if you um if you apply um agents that build easy water, ah you can reverse the cancer.
Speaker: and And there's evidence for several at least several ah ah of those agents that that ah build easy water, demonstrated to build, that do in fact reverse cancer.
Speaker: so So this is, for me, this is very exciting. It's what we're working on right at the moment to ah adduce evidence for the fact that easy easy water is absolutely critical to health.
Speaker: And if you don't have it, then your cells are either dysfunctional or more extreme pathological or much more extreme cancer cancerous. So maybe I should stop there because it's been a mouthful.
Speaker: yeah Well, I think the the question that follows naturally here is, what kind of agents are we talking about? is Is that something that you could share here now? Like what what realm of thinking are we in and and things that create easy water in our body? Because there's many things out there that claim to have, you know, structured water, all these devices and they structure water and you should drink this structured water and and all that stuff. So maybe we could touch on that a little bit, too.
Speaker: Sure, I'll touch you on that first. um If they could demonstrate with with actual data that that their product contains structured or easy water, fourth phase water, then yeah, drinking that should be helpful.
Speaker: ah So far, i' I've not seen such evidence. And um you know there there are products that claim to produce easy water or fourth phase water.
Speaker: But ah to convince me that that's so high, I really do need to see the evidence. I'm not suggesting that they don't have the evidence. It's just that I've not seen it. and That's all.
Speaker: So that, yes, that would be one possibility. But there there are others. so So, yeah, if if the water you you drink contains ah a fraction or of EZ water, then yes, that that should absolutely help.
Speaker: And um you can you can get that. Some of the spring waters, not all, but some contain large amounts of easy water.
Speaker: you know we we We know that we we have a method of semi-quantitative method of ah judging the amount of EZ water that's ah contained in a sample.
Speaker: It's a spectroscopic technique. You put in light, and if the light absorbs, if the light at a wavelength, um and this is in the ultraviolet region, wavelength region, 270, 280 nanometers, light, then it's got EZ.
Speaker: if it absorbs light then it's got easy and if it absorbs a lot of light, then you've got a lot of easy. And i've seen I've seen records of some of these absorption peaks that look like the Empire State Building, um you know, way up there, which means if we're right, it means that it's got a lot of easy water. In other cases, ah almost none or or or none. So if you can find ah the right spring,
Speaker: um then drinking that water should be really good for your health. It should restore easy water. Another way you can do it is um ah is go to your backyard and take some plants that are ah growing, rip off the leaves of freshly grown plants, put them in a machine that squeezes the water out of them.
Speaker: um And that should have a lot of easy water because what you're doing is you're actually squeezing out the cytoplasm ah from plant cells. And these are freshly grown cells. They should be full of EZ water.
Speaker: So you're basically transferring the EZ water from the plant to you. and And that should also help to work. um Another one is going out in the sun.
Speaker: um because the sun contains roughly 50% of the sunlight that reaches us um is in the infrared region. And that's why in sunlight, we see not only light, but we feel warm.
Speaker: That warmth is essentially equivalent to radiation of infrared energy. in Seattle where I live, in the wintertime, we don't see the sun very much, you know, and um ah and and when the sun does come out, you you see on people's faces, suddenly you see smiles, and, you know, the question is, well, what's going on there? Why why do you see smiles? And And people think this must be and a psychological effect and you know and undeniable, but there's another possibility. In fact, the possibility is consistent with that effect, and that is your brain um is receiving the infrared energy.
Speaker: And so it's it's building easy water in your brain, ah the energy from the sun. And and you know if you're feeling depressed or tired or whatever, and you get a dose of infrared energy into your brain cells, and that that that should positively impact those cells.
Speaker: And the default situation is feeling good, not feeling depressed, you know, and and and and ah it's been demonstrated that the infrared energy does pass through your skull because you can have an infrared source outside and it gets scattered by your brain cells, comes back again, and you could get an image of the brain from an external source of infrared.
Speaker: So it it actually does pass through your skull. So anyway, that's another another source is go out in the sun. where you know We're taught that you better stay out of the sun because it's not good for you. But um you know I think the ancients had it right, that the sunlight really is good for you, not not harmful for you. So that's...
Speaker: Another way, an extreme of that is the sauna. um So you go sit in the sauna ah without any clothes on, and the sauna is essentially heat, whether it's moist or dry, it's heat. And heat is essentially the result of infrared energy. So you're getting a huge dose of infrared energy.
Speaker: And I've had experiences myself with that. I remember ah a meeting in Finland, a scientific meeting that I i went to.
Speaker: i gave I gave my talk and and then there was a party in the evening and the party was in some remote place. and This is above and the the Arctic Circle. This is way, way up in in Finland where they have the midnight sun, etc.
Speaker: So we're taking taken this place. We have a nice meal. And I'm so jet lagged that all I want to do is get back to the hotel and go to sleep. and and And so the the the chair of the conference gets up at the microphone. And I was absolutely sure that he was going to say the buses are outside.
Speaker: you know And we're going by. He says, it's time for the sauna or sauna, as as they say. And I was so disappointed because that was the last thing I wanted. The pillow that was what i I really had in mind.
Speaker: On the other hand, you know, I decided to participate. And so it was maybe 20 minutes or 25 minutes. And when I got out, I felt like I had eight hours of sleep and I was raring to go.
Speaker: so So I had, you know, my own positive experience. And what's what's going on there? So you're getting radiated with infrared light, and it's building EZ water in all your cells and in your body.
Speaker: And any cells that had been deficient in EZ water, um yet the EZ gets replenished. So it's no doubt that people feel good afterward, and, you know, their pains are relieved, and, you They feel alert again, ceterat cetera, et cetera.
Speaker: So that's another another source. Another one is, let's see. ah Oh, yeah. certain herbs, you know, and so various herbs have been known since Ayurvedic times, you know, 5,000, even 10,000 years ago to be good for health.
Speaker: and We hear a lot about turmeric and basil as, you know, take it, it's good for you, it's good for health. and And I think it is, and we tested, were curious because like turmeric is, oh, you've got a friend there.
Speaker: um And he likes to interrupt the the show every once in a while. Yeah, well, welcome. um he he He might profit from some of the things that I'm talking about if if he's understanding it. And, you know, I hope that the ideas are simple enough that even felines can understand ah ah We always talk about science ah being such that if it's right, it's probably very, very if it's very simple, it's probably right. if it's not simple, it's wrong. And we always talk about grandmothers. you know if you If you can explain it to your grandmother, then you know it could be right. But now grandmothers have lots of PhDs and such, so it doesn't apply anymore. But 100 years ago, that was the case.
Speaker: Okay, sure. So um where was I? i Where did I leave off? i ah i Just looking for another example of those those agents that that build the easy water.
Speaker: so So turmeric, for example, turmeric has ah
Speaker: ah an impact. um It's been reported on so many ah different... uh um maladies uh if you will and and and when when a a colleague of mine started talking about i was thinking well you know either we have receptors for turmeric and every cell of our body whether it's a liver cell or a lung cell or whatever and a simpler argument is that um it's a in it's contained in some agent that that permeates the entire body, and that would be water.
Speaker: And so we tested to see whether whether ah exposing water to turmeric, and not just turmeric, but you know a half dozen different expedients, whether that builds easy water. And we found uniformly that that was indeed the case, that actually they actually build easy water.
Speaker: So, um and on the contract contrary, we looked at several um agents that causes dysfunction, ah the most prominent of which was glyphosate, you know, the weed killer in Roundup.
Speaker: and which has been shown to not only kill weeds, but maybe kill us too. um and And we tested that, and we found exactly the opposite, that at any concentration we looked at, um the function was diminished.
Speaker: And we did the same with anesthetics too, which transiently depressed function, and we found they too, same thing, that that they have a negative effect. They reduce the size of EZ.
Speaker: And the most um ah effective agent ah of all that we studied was ghee, you know, clarified butter, used by the iodine.
Speaker: Yeah, you used... um routinely, and and that built exclusion zones are close to one millimeter in size. You could easily see it with your naked eye.
Speaker: yeah And we've reported all of this in in the literature. so So yeah, that's another way um of building easy water in your body is ah taking some of these these agents.
Speaker: ah um Another one ah is and Are you aware about of hyperbaric oxygen therapy? I can't say I'm too familiar with it, no.
Speaker: Well, it turns out it's really important. it's a It's a chamber, um ah like a long tube, and the good ones are made of ah stainless steel, I think.
Speaker: Others are tent-like. And and you you you move you you get your body, you lie down in one of these chambers, and you're exposed to high oxygen under high pressure.
Speaker: and And hyperbaric oxygen therapy is touted ah to be, it was initially ah used to heal wounds that nothing else could heal, people coming back from war, for example.
Speaker: And and it it was marvelously effective when nothing else could be effective. But turns out that it's good for numerous pathologies or dysfunctions.
Speaker: So we decided to study it to see if high oxygen and or high pressure increase increased easy water. And we found that they both did, high oxygen and high pressure.
Speaker: So um this is used in, I guess, ah alternative healing communities, not not so much from conventional approaches to deal with, you know,
Speaker: a range of diseases ranging ah from from wounds all the way to cancer. And it seems to be effective and it builds easy water. So that's another way, um you know it's not such a simple way of building. So I've presented to you half dozen or so ah agents that that you oh yeah walking on um on wet grass or wet sand uh is is another so lot of people are not aware and that the earth is negatively charged and uh i um i wasn't aware i began my academic career studying electrical engineering
Speaker: No professor ever even hinted that the earth was anything than bland neutral. So you know if you if you plug you're you're plug into a receptacle in the wall, that third prong, the round one, you know is connecting to a neutral earth.
Speaker: But I found out that's not true. And the evidence that it's not true is overwhelming. um You could find out by reading, ah for example, Richard Fineland's lectures, Volume 2, Chapter 9.
Speaker: And the whole chapter is full of evidence that the Earth is negatively charged. We just don't learn about it. The Russians learned about used to learn about it. They don't anymore because... um The fellow who first introduced me to that idea, which I thought at first was nonsense, um and until next day someone showed me Feynman's lectures and I read it. He said, he told me that the the American educational system must be deficient because in Russia, every middle school student knows that this is correct.
Speaker: And I checked with some of my colleagues from Seattle who happened to um be of contemporary age and and they studied in Russia. I said, sure, we learned about that in middle school.
Speaker: ah Not anymore um and not here ah because you know it just ah has seemed not important enough. On the other hand, you know Easy water is negatively charged.
Speaker: And we found in the laboratory that if we put negative charge into liquid water, it converts to easy water. um you know And we published that as well. um And so that is a another way of acquiring negative charge is take off your shoes, which usually the soles are insulating soles, and walk, for example, on wet grass or ah by the next to the ocean or even bathe in the ocean. Then you're connected electrically to the negatively charged Earth and the negative charges could seep into any cells that are deficient in negative charge.
Speaker: And that, I think, is why connecting yourself electrically to the earth, which has now become a big business, is good for health. So you know I think I've probably given you enough of these. It's not complicated.
Speaker: Yeah, there are lots of expedients that should be good for your health and have been demonstrated to be good for your health. It's just the mechanism that I'm ah suggesting is,
Speaker: is ah and I think, the same in all of those cases. Basically builds easy water to fill your cells, and any cells that happen to be deficient in easy water, and therefore dysfunctional, should become functional again.
Speaker: So it's not complicated. Yeah. Wow. It's a great way to to kind of measure it as well, right? Like that's, that's amazing. Dr. Pollack, if I can ask you one more question, might kind of be doozy of a question, but, um, you know, when we're talking about, ah methods used in science, what are the big ones that we use is electron microscopy.
Speaker: You know, one of the steps in preparing a sample for electron microscopy is to dehydrate your sample, right? So whether you're looking at cells, which is, you know, how we understand a lot of the superstructures of um the cell is through electron microscopy. And you cannot look at you know, a live cell, you actually have to dehydrate the cell. And, you know, you got to stain it and that all this good stuff. And actually, sometimes they even rehydrate the cell using something other than water, right? They might use like a synthetic gel or something like that.
Speaker: You know what, to me, it seems like this is this is totally changing the nature of the cell. And and when I try to think of it, you know, strictly from ah an objective standpoint, to me, it stands out as being an almost like in you know, ah method that's that's useless, right? Because we're not looking at something that's actually the way it is in nature that, you know, so maybe there's a certain amount that we can understand from it, but but it seems to me that we're not able to get the full picture. And i know that ah Dr. Harold Hellman did a lot of work in this area, kind of talking about, you know, the problems with electron microscopy. And he spoke out about
Speaker: um you know, the endoplasmic particulum kind of being in a in the Golgi apparatus and in these things like this, not actually being real structures um when he tried to control the the use of the electron microscope.
Speaker: Is there any validity to that? do you have any thoughts on that or any other methods that you feel like kind of become less useful because of this new understanding of of how water works in our biological systems?
Speaker: Yes. I mean, I've never, not myself, have never done electron microscopy, but I know the work of Harold Hillman, and I i i knew him and not not particularly well, about um and I'm impressed by what he has to say.
Speaker: And it goes so far as to question the existence of the cell membrane. ah Now, you know that That is so central to to all of our understanding. And if you if you if you think about um the the experiment that he did, ah you're probably familiar with it, but but let me tell you. So,
Speaker: um So he was arguing that the membrane is an artifact or the apparent membrane is an artifact of electron microscopy. ah and And his argument, similar to what what you were arguing, that to prepare cell for electron microscopy, you go through almost a ah dozen different steps. Each...
Speaker: each one of which could could be really hazardous to the cell. So you're not really looking at the cell, you're looking at an image of something that you try to interpret as something that exists in the cell.
Speaker: and ah And so he talks about about the cell membrane. So the idea of a membrane came way before Harold Hillman. you know because you know the inside of the cell contains high potassium and the outside contains high sodium.
Speaker: um So people or scientists then infer that there there must be a barrier separating the two, otherwise the two would equilibrate.
Speaker: And so the idea, i can't remember how early it was, but I think it's like a century before Harold Hillman, ah a reasonable postulate came that there must be a membrane.
Speaker: So what Hillman did, Hillman argued that the membrane might well be an artifact of electron microscopy. So everybody was looking for a membrane um and and with the advent of electron microscopy, they noticed that around the cell um appeared appeared to be something that looked like two railroad tracks that ran around the periphery of the cell.
Speaker: And and it it was happily inferred that, oh, that must be the cell membrane. And that's been accepted now for, and well, close to 100 years, that this is evidence for the existence of a cell membrane.
Speaker: um Now, if that's true, just imagine the following. This is Harold Hillman's argument, not my argument. Just imagine a sphere, a cell being a sphere. um I see you're nodding your head so you know this argument.
Speaker: The cell is a sphere, and around the sphere is this kind of railroad track that runs around. and ah And people, of course, measured the distance between these two lines that ran around the edge of the cell, and they found it was about 10 nanometers.
Speaker: Now, if you recognize that in electron microscopy you're cutting a thin section, if you cut the section, depending on where you cut the section, if you happen to cut the section right along the equator, um and then you're looking down, a thin section,
Speaker: um and And you're looking at the real dimension um of those railroads or real separation between those two railroad tracks. But if you cut, if you happen to cut and you don't know where you're cutting, if you happen to cut a section, let's say near the polar region, then then the the so-called membrane surface is oblique.
Speaker: And if it's oblique and you're looking down at it, then the distance between those two railroad tracks should be larger. you know And so if you extrapolate from that, you know you've got sections occurring at random locations And you should get a distribution of the distances ah between those two railroad tracks.
Speaker: Well, it turns out that that's not the case. It turns out that it's always approximately 10 nanometers. So he argues that that doesn't make sense. that This can't be real. It's almost certainly an artifact of electron microscopy.
Speaker: Whether he's right or not right, I don't know, but you know it's something that needs to be looked into because it is possible that there's no membrane around the cell. And there are other explanations ah for various physiological or chemical differences.
Speaker: And the other thing is just beyond Harold Hillman, if you look in the textbook, you see that these so-called membranes are are interrupted by pumps and channels. And you know if you look at the diagram in in the textbooks it looks like uh these entities are are pretty big compared to the 10 nanometers and they should be all over but but in the electron microscope you see a continuous uh run of so-called uh membrane of these uh double tracks without any interruption at all so uh where where are the pumps and channels you know you can't see them
Speaker: And that perhaps is and another argument for either for their non-existence or if they do exist for um arguing that that really isn't the membrane at all. It's something else, some kind of artifact.
Speaker: So I'm glad you brought it up because it's really important. And you know it's it's one of those examples where we wait we take for granted what we think is true. and we don't pay attention to evidence that suggests that no it's not true and it's really necessary to look back and and and check we don't do that and so sometimes you know concepts that are not correct or may not be correct we start building on them and we build a giant edifice that's unstable because you can't build a stable edifice on a foundation that's incorrect
Speaker: So thank you for asking that. right Great, great. Well, Dr. Pollock, this is an enlightening conversation. Is there anything that you'd like to leave the listener with? Any points that you think might be ah helpful to to add to our conversation today? If not, just any any final thoughts?
Speaker: Yeah, it's it's about doing science and um it extends, ah um it's a natural extension of the topic that we were just talking about.
Speaker: it It's getting to the fundamentals, the foundation. And we talked about in terms of biology, some foundational concepts that we have wrong, ah that textbooks have wrong. And you try to build build on these and you get something of infinite complexity, which is the situation today.
Speaker: ah On the other hand, if you you you can get to ah ground truth, ah then you can rebuild on that as something that makes more sense.
Speaker: So it's a generality, i I think, over and above what I presented. i think, you know, most most of us agree that nature is simple. You know, it follows from so-called Occam's razor, and the the idea the idea that nature year nature works in a simple way. And if you have if you have two hypotheses, the simpler one is the one that's going to be ah almost certainly correct.
Speaker: Today's biology is anything but simple. It's it it's so complex. And not only biology, but but physics also, and even chemistry. and So we kind of have to ask whether the fundamentals that we take for granted that are in every textbook whether they're actually correct or not correct. And so my and advice to any budding scientist is to go way back to the fundamentals and ask, is it really correct? Because if it's not correct, we'll never be able to to build on it and get something simple and sensible. but i
Speaker: When I read um something and come upon so-called fundamental mechanisms, and i am if it If it doesn't have the ring of truth, that is simplicity, and natural simplicity, I scratch my head, that's why I'm missing a lot of hair, I scratch my head and wonder weather whether it's correct. I'd like to have your hair, i once did, but you know. ah ah yeah and
Speaker: And so i've got I've got some books coming out on some of this. ah um next book that should be out as soon as my son the artist finishes his uh his work um you know he's he's gifted he takes some time to make sure that it's ideal and if you look at the fourth phase water book you'll see his his artwork and that that book yeah that book is practically infinitely popular it's uh And, you know, I'm i'm i'm flattered by the popularity. it's
Speaker: It seems to be a have ah higher rating even than Feynman's lectures. So, yeah, the word is getting around. new one is coming out in in ah April.
Speaker: um And ah it's called CHARGED, and it argues that a phenomena that we see every day, ah raning ranging from how you get a hurricane to how birds fly and how fish swim, we think we understand, but actually the foundation on which our understanding is built is erroneous.
Speaker: And I provide different explanations that i I've argued, um supported by a lot of evidence. And then most fundamentally is the book that is ready, but waiting for my son, the artist, he's really gifted.
Speaker: It deals with the structure of the atom, and that's really getting down to basics. and And I argue, and the arguments are really simple, can be understood by a middle school student, I argue that the current model ah which is essentially built on a positively charged nucleus and negatively charged electrons in orbits around, is wrong.
Speaker: it It just violates several basic concepts of physics, and we have to start all over again. And I propose a ah model that, to my surprise, is not so different from a model proposed by one of chemistry's greats from a century ago, Lewis,
Speaker: um gen lewis And um so so i I gained confidence when I found out his thinking, and he was like one of the very major thinkers in chemistry, ah were actually not so different from what I came up that gave me reassurance. And and the new ah model that I'm proposing explains physical, chemical phenomena, two or three chapters worth, in very simple ways. that
Speaker: ah so So what i what I'm getting at is I think it's really necessary to to go back um to the fundamentals, as fundamental as we can get, and and and see whether the current thinking is the correct thinking or is wrong.
Speaker: um So i i I guess that's the the message. It's not so easy to do that because you won't get supported, you won't get grants, et cetera, et cetera. and True.
Speaker: In various ways, we've been working to change that system, but that's another another story. So okay anyway, that's my amazing remark. ah Study the fundamentals and make sure they're true.
Speaker: I love that. That's a great, great parting wisdom for the listener there. um So probably the best way to support you and your work is is through the books. i I have two of your publications here, The Fourth Phase of Water and ah the Cells Gels and ah you know, the Engines of life engines of Life. You have another book, ah Muscles and Molecules, is it? I haven't had the pleasure of reading that one.
Speaker: I'm not sure it would be pleasurable for you. And in there, I argue the reasons why why current thinking doesn't fit the evidence. And I suggest others.
Speaker: And there's a kind of summary of it and in Sales, Jails, and the Engines of Life, one paragraph deals with that in a condensed way. I don't recommend that book because although I tried ah tried to write the book for non-experts, it turns out that it's really for experts because there's more information there than I think um um is recommended. I do recommend the fourth phase of Water Book because ah that explains and maybe more clearly and in more detail, shows the evidence for the kinds of things I was talking about today.
Speaker: And of course, the new book, Charge. oh Sure, yeah. Very much looking forward to those those coming out. I can't wait can't wait to get my hands on them. Dr. Pollack, this has been an amazing conversation, you know, and and I think that that your work is is of the utmost importance and I think that you've influenced a an amazing paradigm shift. I know that, um you know, you've learned from, from the greats that, that have come before you, but, but the work that you've synthesized and published, I think has been, you know, extremely influential and ah you could see it in, in the movements that are, that are taking place now. And then that the fourth phase of water almost be in common knowledge and,
Speaker: you know, in the alternative health space, I suppose, is is indicative of that. And, and you know, there's not many people that that I talk to that don't at least know the concept if they are concerned with with health. So um I just want to thank you for for everything that you've done and thank you for your time and all the wisdom that you've shared today with us.
Speaker: Well, thank you for so much for the opportunity. I appreciate that. Okay. So take care. Thank you.
Speaker: All right, and i want to thank you all for listening. Just quick reminder that this is not medical advice or any advice for that matter. This is for your informational purposes only. That being said, you are a sovereign being capable of thinking, criticizing, questioning, understanding absolutely anything.
Speaker: We in the greater forces are together self-healers, self-governable, self-teachers, and so much more. And this is why the Beyond Terrain community exists. This is why I'm so passionate about it. We are done chasing trends, supplements, magic bullets, victim mindsets. We're leaving all of this in the past. If you're ready to take full responsibility, build true resilience, and gain wisdom to navigate the health and life that you want independently, this is the place for you.
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Speaker: you have any questions, criticisms, comments, or whatever about the episode today, please reach out on Instagram, beyond.terrain. You know where to find me. ah Listen, I really appreciate every single one of you for taking the time to listen.
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