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Episode 22 - Are FIGURED WOODS a GIMMICK?
1.2k Plays15 days ago
We've all seen them, pieces of furniture or woodworking where someone throws all these random ass pieces of contrasting figured woods together, thinking that by using figured woods, their piece will look better, or fancy, or valuable. When in reality, it often looks gaudy and disjointed, and a bit confused. IS USING FIGURED WOODS A GIMMICK? Join a spirited debate on how we see the tasteful use of figured woods, but how this simple question speaks to a MUCH LARGER design question of HUGE IMPORTANCE. We also cover how figured woods develop in trees and what the scientific research says about their occurrence.
To watch the YOUTUBE VIDEO of this episode and the irreverent & somewhat unpredictable AFTERSHOW, subscribe to our Patreon: http://patreon.com/user?u=91688467
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Transcript
Introduction and Birthday Surprise
00:00:18
pjasper
Greetings, everyone. Greetings, greetings once again. Welcome to another random-ass intro.
00:00:21
E Dollar Sign
ratings and salutations.
00:00:24
pjasper
Another live-read intro of your favorite woodworking, and not just woodworking. Woodworking and other forms of art podcast. Woodworking is bullshit.
00:00:36
E Dollar Sign
So inclusive.
00:00:37
pjasper
I'm your host, Paul Jasper, scientist by day, woodworker by night. And I'm joined by my two snarkalicious hosts.
00:00:43
E Dollar Sign
Oh,
00:00:45
Mary
What?
00:00:46
pjasper
Eric, Eric Curtis, full-time furniture maker and content creator, Edala Sign, according to his sign-in into our webcasting software.
00:00:53
E Dollar Sign
Yeah, you're.
00:00:57
Mary
Who is also a year older, by the way, as of yesterday.
00:00:58
pjasper
and
00:01:01
pjasper
And... Oh, really, Eric?
00:01:01
Mary
Happy birthday.
00:01:02
E Dollar Sign
oh
00:01:03
pjasper
I didn't know that.
00:01:03
E Dollar Sign
Cheers friends, but you were you were in the birthday video.
00:01:05
pjasper
I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding.
00:01:11
pjasper
Just kidding.
00:01:11
E Dollar Sign
I was going to say, are you are you good, bro?
00:01:14
pjasper
And I've reminded you about your impending mortality.
00:01:17
E Dollar Sign
You did. it was It was very funny. I will say, I don't know if you if either of you saw the video that Sarah stitched together.
00:01:24
pjasper
i did I didn't see it.
00:01:26
E Dollar Sign
it So for the audience, ah my girlfriend is a wonderful, supportive, loving human being and got
00:01:26
Mary
No.
00:01:33
E Dollar Sign
you know, 15 or 16 of my very favorite people to send me birthday messages and stitch them together into a ah like a four minute video. And it was delightful. It was wonderful. And also every single fucking one of you were like, hey, you're going to die.
00:01:47
E Dollar Sign
So it was great.
00:01:48
pjasper
ah
00:01:49
Mary
I didn't do that. I made mine positive and upbeat and very cheerful.
00:01:55
E Dollar Sign
It was great.
00:01:56
pjasper
ah Mine was like yes, so another year closer to death big guy knock knock knock you hear that knocking at the door.
00:02:00
E Dollar Sign
I might maybe A couple couple of my favorite moments where or one of my favorite moments was when you told like Vicki was in the video with you and you were like, you're like, you got anything to say?
00:02:03
pjasper
That's death ah Yeah
00:02:12
E Dollar Sign
And she goes, happy birthday. And you're like, that's it? That fucking sucks.
00:02:20
pjasper
but Insulting my wife and reminding you about your impending death.
00:02:24
pjasper
It's what I'm best at.
00:02:24
E Dollar Sign
That's that's that's what best friends do.
00:02:27
Mary
Wow.
00:02:29
pjasper
ah And our other co-hosts. I'm married to Sayee, UX designer by day and contemporary furniture heiress by night.
00:02:42
pjasper
so
00:02:42
Mary
What?
00:02:43
E Dollar Sign
Furniture heiress.
00:02:45
pjasper
What would you do? Didn't you make an Instagram account for her? Something about seductress?
00:02:47
E Dollar Sign
ah That's the wood seductress. Yeah. Also, wood ductress.
00:02:52
Mary
We're doctorous, right, or something?
00:02:54
pjasper
What?
00:02:54
E Dollar Sign
Also, there's there's a new one on the market, just so everybody knows. If you know um Sam DIY Huntress, we did drunkenly make DIY seductress the other night, which was somehow open.
00:02:59
pjasper
Okay.
00:03:06
E Dollar Sign
So we should all go follow that one as well. They'll be.
00:03:08
pjasper
okay
00:03:09
Mary
How many Instagram accounts do you have now?
00:03:09
E Dollar Sign
they'll be ah Not enough, not as many as I will have by the time Instagram ends.
00:03:15
Mary
More or less than 10?
00:03:19
E Dollar Sign
o It's less than 10, it's less than 10, but it is coming up on 10.
00:03:21
Mary
Hahahaha!
00:03:24
pjasper
Oh boy, all right, well, another chaotic intro. So this is, ah so as you know, we lead with a question and, but it turns out that today's question sort of led to a much larger discussion. So I'll start with the original question or the original thought that came up. Now this was contributed as I recall by Eric in our ah closed personal chat group on our phones.
Debating Wood Design Myths
00:03:53
pjasper
And Eric said, you know, I've seen cases where people use either highly contrasting woods or really high figured woods and they throw them together because they think that equals good design.
00:04:09
pjasper
Like that's enough. Like I'll just, I'll just take this black walnut. I'll pair it with a curly maple and it's golden. Or I'll take these.
00:04:15
Mary
Purple heart.
00:04:17
pjasper
Yeah, I'll take purple heart, which is going to turn brown in five years.
00:04:18
E Dollar Sign
Fucking purple heart. ah
00:04:21
pjasper
I'll take Purple Heart or I'll take you know these highly colored woods or or really crazy burl and figured woods and I'm going to mix them all together and it's going to look great. and I think we've seen many, many examples of that looking like complete shit. right ah it it Using those things doesn't necessarily guarantee like some amazing outcome. and so That was sort of the genesis of the idea. so Actually, I'm giving you a little inside view into how we sort of come up with these segment ideas. so that And all three of us have noticed that, and all three of us struggle with how do you use these things in a tasteful way to come up with good designs.
00:05:00
pjasper
But talking with our our first guest ever, Conrad Sauer, today, you know, him and I, admission, I talked to Conrad almost before every episode to decide kind of see what pearls he's got floating around in there.
00:05:16
E Dollar Sign
i I really thought you were going to say admission. I have a man crush on Conrad and I was like, yeah, no, you do buddy.
00:05:21
Mary
Yeah.
00:05:22
pjasper
Oh, that's already, already i like did I need to say that out loud?
00:05:22
E Dollar Sign
You do. That's a given.
00:05:25
Mary
ah
00:05:29
pjasper
Conrad. Yeah, anyway. um So we were talking about it and it it got ah us together thinking um that this is actually a much larger conversation because what are figured woods?
00:05:44
pjasper
Figured woods are a type of surface decoration is what they are. It's like you have a flat piece of wood. How do you make it more interesting? You could paint it. You could carve it. You could put pyrography on it. It could be a figured wood. You could put an inlay in it. You could put a pattern on it. You could do parketry, geometric patterns. on Like there's so many ways to dress up a surface with surface decoration. And so that, you know, it turns out that's just one avenue of design is like how to make something like a form that's not terribly interesting per se may look more interesting. Now there's a completely other way to think about it it is that well maybe the form is interesting and then I thought of Mary and like architectural forms and beautiful curves and Eric you know you're you're all sculptural and movement and shape
00:06:38
pjasper
And when you have that kind of beauty, the art the the form itself, you don't need so much surface decoration. And in fact, they can often clash.
00:06:48
E Dollar Sign
Uh-huh.
00:06:48
pjasper
And that led to the thinking, there's another axis. which is function. So actually, that's probably what most of us start with because woodworking, you know we come from a craft field, really, and function was always first and foremost.
Function vs. Form vs. Flair
00:07:04
pjasper
I need a stool to sit my ass. i or you know So that got me thinking about these three major axes or thrusts that we have to balance when we think about design, which is function, form,
00:07:19
pjasper
and flair, I guess, if you want another F word, alliteration, or, yeah, the the three F's.
00:07:22
E Dollar Sign
Ooh, flair. Chachkies.
00:07:26
pjasper
But really the third is like, you know, function, form, and surface decoration, really. And so I think what started as a piddly kind of ticky tack question about, oh, using figured woods doesn't always look that good.
00:07:40
pjasper
Actually, if you zoom out to 10,000 feet, it became a much more interesting topic.
00:07:47
E Dollar Sign
Well, I think it is. From my perspective, the reason that I asked the question was because I do think it's an interesting topic with a lot of depth to it. I think you flesh it out far better than I could have because you're smarter than I am. But I think the the idea that using figured woods to as a crutch for bad design is like It's a something of a natural progression in we as woodworkers, in our woodworking journeys, because you start out, most people start out, they're not gonna buy you know curly bibinga for their first project. You're gonna go to Home Depot, you're gonna buy some pine, you're gonna buy some maple, you're gonna buy some oak, whatever it is, you make a thing.
00:08:30
E Dollar Sign
And then you make something that's a little bit better and you learn on you know learn the ropes. And then your first inclination, if you don't have an understanding of design, if you're not ah educated in the field of design, say like Mary was, then your first inclination naturally is, well, if I buy something that's more expensive, it might make it look prettier.
00:08:50
E Dollar Sign
And I don't think that's unreasonable, because usually the more expensive or I should say, usually the prettier the material, the more expensive it is not always the case, but usually. So I don't think that's a flaw in thinking where I think the flaw comes in is they see that and they go, oh, that's good enough.
00:09:11
E Dollar Sign
And I don't have to figure out if this object is working or if it's not what's wrong with it, what's right with it, what flows, what doesn't, because, Hey, let me just distract you with the wood.
00:09:23
pjasper
It's a great point. um And I think it is logical to go down that progression. And I feel like if you look at Etsy, you'll see a zillion examples of fancy woods put together in a bad way offered at a cheap price.
00:09:32
E Dollar Sign
Mm-hmm.
00:09:37
Mary
A lot of river tables, you see, the the curly
00:09:39
pjasper
Oh, there it is.
00:09:39
E Dollar Sign
The river tables.
00:09:40
pjasper
There it is.
00:09:43
pjasper
So.
00:09:43
Mary
I mean, that's just like, it's just so much on top of so much.
00:09:43
E Dollar Sign
Lotta.
00:09:47
Mary
It's like, ah man, it's just too much when it's all combined. I for me, a really large part of using any sort of ornamentation, and then in this case, Figured Woods is about editing and balance.
00:09:59
E Dollar Sign
Mm hmm.
00:10:00
Mary
And a lot of the time, that understanding of balance is not necessarily there when you're first starting out. And we all need to learn. But you know, I think this is a good opportunity for folks to be able to, you have to remember to take a step back and be like, does this work?
00:10:16
Mary
Would this actually you know fit in this room? Does this is actually you know like work out for for whoever my client is, or even if it's just you? I don't know.
00:10:27
E Dollar Sign
That's such a hard thing to to learn though, right?
00:10:27
Mary
People don't do that enough.
00:10:30
E Dollar Sign
Like that takes a long time to figure out.
00:10:30
pjasper
a
00:10:30
Mary
Yeah, exactly.
00:10:32
E Dollar Sign
so i you know ah
00:10:34
pjasper
So Eric, how does one learn that?
00:10:37
E Dollar Sign
i
00:10:41
E Dollar Sign
I can't give everybody the path to go do the thing. Cause like, I mean, look, I think, I think we all are pretty good at design and we all took three very different paths. Right. So I think it's totally okay to find your own path. Mary went the academic route and studied architecture and design.
00:10:59
E Dollar Sign
ah in college. um Paul is just naturally a brilliant human being. And I think you actually are a really good example of somebody who had a natural eye for telling what wasn't right. And then you have that natural curiosity so you could dive into studying other people's work.
00:11:18
E Dollar Sign
and go, okay, here's what they're doing. And here are the elements I can pull and apply, which is another way like, like, that's like the traditional way to study anything really, right copying masters.
00:11:22
pjasper
That's really accurate, Eric.
00:11:29
E Dollar Sign
And I, I've said it before, and I'll say it again, I think my mind is more mathematical than it is creative. And so what I had to do was to study the elements and principles of design and learn that it is a basic math equation, it's addition and subtraction. And once I learned how to manipulate those into some equilibrium, then I felt like I had ah an understanding of design where I could, you know, to Mary's word, kind of edit back a little bit and choose what element or principle I was manipulating. And that was really helpful for me.
00:12:01
Mary
So you you are kind of like a combination of the two of us because you did go to school for it as well, but also have that natural inclination and learning.
00:12:09
E Dollar Sign
i I did, I did, but when I went to school for it, I was learning both a craft and design at the same time. And I think that's borderline impossible to do.
00:12:22
E Dollar Sign
I think most people, myself included, have to learn one and then the other. Learn basically like how to do the thing and then how to apply other things to the thing you already know.
00:12:28
Mary
Yeah.
00:12:35
E Dollar Sign
um And so.
00:12:35
Mary
Yeah, that's true. i've Actually, now that you say that, it's like I feel like most schools lean one way or the other. Because I know that in architecture, a lot of people complained about, I think even Mira complained about how Harvard DSD in architecture school, and it's known for this, is too theoretical.
00:12:41
E Dollar Sign
Yeah, right.
00:12:50
Mary
So she's, oh no, I think it was George who switched.
00:12:50
pjasper
All theoretical.
00:12:50
E Dollar Sign
Yeah.
00:12:53
Mary
And then he decided to go to MIT because he was like, I need the practical side of this and the craft side of it.
00:12:57
E Dollar Sign
yeah Yeah. I mean, I think by nature, you just have to lean one way or the other and everybody has different inclinations.
00:13:04
Mary
Yeah.
00:13:05
E Dollar Sign
This is one of the most helpful things I learned when I was teaching is that like, it doesn't matter how I learn. I will. The only thing that I can do as your teacher is give you honest information about how I figured it out and it might not resonate with you.
00:13:21
E Dollar Sign
And that's totally fine. And if it doesn't. It becomes incumbent upon me to help you figure out what does resonate with you, but then I no longer can relate to your experience and you have to then figure out how you learn best. That's your job as the student. My job as the teacher is to just help you figure out where you need to walk, but you need to then go walk that.
00:13:41
E Dollar Sign
Um, and I think some people learn better the design theory and then learning how to apply, uh, those principles through the craft. And I, and and I, and I think Paul similarly is you learn how to build things and then you learn what things you can manipulate within the boundaries of that skill set that you've now developed.
00:13:51
Mary
That's me.
00:13:52
pjasper
Hmm. Hmm.
00:14:03
pjasper
Yeah. I think that's a much very a very typical path for most woodworkers.
00:14:07
pjasper
You learn the execution piece because that's all anyone fucking talks about. And then you come to like, m what do I want to make?
00:14:07
E Dollar Sign
Yeah.
00:14:10
E Dollar Sign
Yeah.
00:14:14
pjasper
And then you you pivot towards design. So i you know I sort of let us sort of go on a tangent to put the carpet for the horse talking about like figured woods and how to or like figured elements and how to balance them and how do you learn that balance.
00:14:14
E Dollar Sign
Yeah.
00:14:27
pjasper
But I'd like to zoom back out right to this whole conversation of like, form, like architectural, sculptural form, like just the shape of the object versus surface decoration.
00:14:39
pjasper
Because I feel like we have a really interesting mix of people in this podcast who trend one way or the other, Mary. I feel like you are squarely, Mary, you are squarely in the architectural form camp in my, I mean, compared to me, I am not making an absolute about that.
00:14:50
E Dollar Sign
Sorry, Mary.
00:15:00
pjasper
um you are very tuned into shape and shadow and lines and you know negative space and Eric you I think you tend that way too however you also use figured woods you're kind of between the two of us and I think I'm probably on the far end of making simple shapes. Most of my boxes are quite simple in shape, but it's all about the figured woods, the brass inlays, the ornamentation, the surface decoration, you know, not clashing with the object and being tastefully done. So I feel like we have a nice, you know, sweep across the three, you know, across those two those two things, where it's like Mary's on one extreme and maybe I'm on the other extreme and maybe, Eric, you're kind of in the middle. However,
00:15:49
pjasper
I will tell you that thinking about this, the first thing I thought of Mary, of course I thought of Mary, some of your tables where it's all about you know shape and form, but your hobbit door was an example of ornamentation that made the piece.
00:16:01
E Dollar Sign
Mm-hmm.
00:16:07
pjasper
okay
00:16:07
E Dollar Sign
The piece was the ornamentation.
00:16:09
pjasper
It was the ornamentation.
00:16:10
E Dollar Sign
Yeah.
00:16:10
pjasper
And I thought, what would that, and I'm totally telling you this as it came out real time today, as I was thinking about this, what would that Hobbit case be without that ornamentation?
00:16:22
pjasper
It would be a circular door on a square box.
00:16:24
E Dollar Sign
Mm-hmm.
00:16:26
pjasper
That ornamentation.
00:16:26
Mary
Yeah, there's a reason I chose the or like the the curly ornamented door. as it put I was originally just going to do Bilbo's door, which is just a green circle with like regular wood lines, et cetera.
00:16:36
pjasper
Hmm.
00:16:38
Mary
But I was like, for an object that's small, what's even the point?
00:16:43
pjasper
Right. So Mary, I think funny enough, like you're you're someone who I think trends naturally towards form. And in fact, one of your most recent objects is where you chose like a surface ornamentation that actually made the piece. And Eric, you're, we've talked about this, your ponchett case.
00:17:02
pjasper
It is devoid of ornamentation in a way. I know it has some, I know it has some shiplaps and stuff, but it's white. It's a white canvas because that accentuates the shape, those beautiful curves and the concave, and the hips and the concavity you put in each slat.
00:17:14
E Dollar Sign
Hmm.
00:17:15
Mary
Those hips.
00:17:16
E Dollar Sign
Them hips.
00:17:20
pjasper
And so for someone who loves figured woods, you chose very intentionally to go away from that to allow the form to speak clearly so it's like this tension between the two.
00:17:30
E Dollar Sign
Yeah. it it well It was very much attention in making that decision, right? Because so I think this is a good example. We can talk all of this, like. the reflecting upon the object after it's done and like why it's successful and why it's not. But when you're doing the thing in the moment, you don't know if the choice you're about to make is going to be successful or not. And that's where a lot of that that paralysis comes in. And we all we've all faced that. So that is a really good example of a thing where I
00:18:01
E Dollar Sign
very much lean toward wood tones.
Design Choices: Ponchett Case Study
00:18:04
E Dollar Sign
I work in wood because I think wood is a phenomenally beautiful material and I want to highlight that as much as I can, but I recognized in that moment that all of the Coves and all of the facets between the staves we're going to lose light and lose their their their highlights if I kept it in the tone of ash and so I made the decision to go white and it was really hard and I was literally thinking about this the other day ah I I find it a little bit funny ah funny I think is the best word for it, but I Constantly, I think like we've talked about it on this podcast. Other people have talked about it. Like the pawn shed cabinet might be the best object that I've made. And it is the object that looks the least amount like my normal vernacular. Like it, it stands out in my portfolio as a thing that, um, if you were to just look at a gaggle of images, wouldn't necessarily be identifiable as my work. So maybe that says a lot about my work. I don't know.
00:19:11
pjasper
I don't know. ah Mary, does does does that Hobbit door stand out in your portfolio as a ah ah one-off?
00:19:20
Mary
Yeah, for sure. I mean, you can, there's no way it doesn't. Because I don't, I usually make larger pieces, I guess. And for a larger piece, I would not want to do that. Because I try to think of like, where it's going to be living as like, like, what person's house is this going to be living in? And it's going to look insane. As much as I have left to have a full size hobbit door in my house, like,
00:19:43
Mary
i I think it would drive me crazy. But yeah, it's definitely a one off. But I also agree with Eric, like the those stand out to you, I wouldn't say it's my best piece.
00:19:54
Mary
It was definitely making it was like a making myself get get back into woodworking piece.
00:19:57
E Dollar Sign
I don't know
00:19:59
Mary
But I love it. And like just as much as everything else I've made.
00:20:05
E Dollar Sign
It's a good piece.
00:20:05
Mary
It was great.
00:20:06
E Dollar Sign
It's a good piece. Can I before before we move forward, can I I want to go full Mary for a half a moment and define a thing.
00:20:12
pjasper
Are you gonna define something?
00:20:14
E Dollar Sign
I do want to define a thing because because you've been you've been fluctuating back and forth between shape and form as we've talked about this.
00:20:15
Mary
Oh my god!
00:20:24
E Dollar Sign
So I do just
00:20:24
pjasper
Shape and form, no, shape is form in my current definition.
00:20:27
E Dollar Sign
Right, and so this is this is what I want to to clarify, because coming back to like elements and principles of design, and this is the thing that helped me learn how to manipulate design, um I'm always very intentional in the use of those words, because shape is a two-dimensional thing, and form is a three-dimensional thing.
00:20:31
pjasper
and Okay.
00:20:45
E Dollar Sign
And yeah, so so the way I always explain it to students is like a shape, a square is a shape, a cube is a form, right?
00:20:46
pjasper
Shapes two dimensional.
00:20:50
pjasper
Okay.
00:20:53
E Dollar Sign
A circle is a shape, a sphere is a form, a triangle is a shape, a pyramid is a form.
00:20:55
pjasper
That's one definition. Okay. I've never heard that definition before, but okay.
00:21:01
E Dollar Sign
Well, that' I don't know if that's the scientific definition. That's just within the the um design.
00:21:05
pjasper
Okay.
00:21:07
E Dollar Sign
I mean, Mary, do you have a different definition?
00:21:09
Mary
No. I mean, that sounds right. I don't know. I don't feel strongly either way.
00:21:14
pjasper
Mary doesn't give a shit, in other words, Eric.
00:21:15
E Dollar Sign
I guess, she doesn't.
00:21:16
pjasper
that
00:21:17
E Dollar Sign
ah the reason The reason that I bring that up is because we had this conversation, again, parting the kimono a little bit.
00:21:18
pjasper
ah
00:21:23
E Dollar Sign
We had this conversation in the group chat. Parting the kimono, you've never heard that?
00:21:28
Mary
What?
00:21:28
pjasper
what does What does that mean?
00:21:29
Mary
No? Is that sexual?
00:21:30
E Dollar Sign
What? I mean, a little bit. You open, I mean, if I have to spell it out for you, it means you expose yourself because you're opening the kimono.
00:21:33
pjasper
What what does that mean?
00:21:34
Mary
What?
00:21:39
Mary
But why a kimono?
00:21:40
pjasper
Partying the kimono?
00:21:41
E Dollar Sign
Parting the kimono.
00:21:43
Mary
Why not like a robe or like ah something else?
00:21:43
pjasper
who
00:21:45
E Dollar Sign
I mean, sure, but like kimono just sounds sexier.
00:21:49
Mary
What?
00:21:50
E Dollar Sign
All right. So take dropping the bath towel, like there's so many ways we could phrase it.
00:21:53
pjasper
um What happened?
00:21:57
E Dollar Sign
I don't know what you want me to say. It's just the word I chose in that moment.
00:22:01
Mary
ah You're trying, you're saying this like it's a commonplace phrase.
00:22:01
E Dollar Sign
Parting the kimono.
00:22:05
E Dollar Sign
I didn't make it up. I've heard that.
00:22:07
Mary
What?
00:22:09
E Dollar Sign
Yeah.
00:22:10
Mary
All right, all right, move go on, go on.
00:22:11
E Dollar Sign
so So putting an our dicks on the table, um I think.
00:22:11
pjasper
Okay, anyway.
00:22:15
Mary
Excuse me, excuse me.
00:22:18
E Dollar Sign
i don't even remember I don't even remember what I was about to say anymore.
00:22:19
pjasper
Mary, you don't have to, Mary, you don't have to do that. Well, you were being a little, you were being a little bitch about my use of the word shape and form is what you were doing.
00:22:23
E Dollar Sign
ah
00:22:28
E Dollar Sign
Oh, all right.
00:22:28
pjasper
I don't give a, no, I don't fuck what.
00:22:29
E Dollar Sign
All right. All right. No, no, no, no, no. I do want to be a little bitch about it. That's fine. you We can we can I'm not trying to nitpick. But the reason that I bring that up is because um when we're talking about like, but well, yeah, but only when we're not speaking in public body, that's just like a you and me thing.
00:22:39
pjasper
You're a little bitch.
00:22:46
E Dollar Sign
ah So the function form in surface decoration, right? These are the three branches that we're discussing.
00:22:53
pjasper
Yes, yes, yes.
00:22:55
E Dollar Sign
And I think it's When we talk about like surface decoration, shape, et cetera, et cetera, the form and the function are inextricably linked, at least in furniture.
00:23:10
E Dollar Sign
right like the If you make a table, ah the table has to have a flat surface for things to sit on.
00:23:11
pjasper
Hmm. Good point.
00:23:16
pjasper
Good point.
00:23:16
E Dollar Sign
And that alters the form. It doesn't necessarily alter the shapes on the form.
00:23:18
pjasper
Hmm.
00:23:21
E Dollar Sign
You can do marquetry, parquetry, paint, et cetera.
00:23:23
pjasper
or this the surface decoration. look ah let let Let's use the term surface decoration, because way I introduced it as surface decoration.
00:23:25
E Dollar Sign
Exactly. Exactly. Okay, okay. Okay, that's totally fine.
00:23:29
pjasper
But that's a great point. That's function and and form are inextricably linked often.
00:23:36
E Dollar Sign
Often, at least to an extent.
00:23:37
pjasper
Not always, but yeah that's a great point.
00:23:39
E Dollar Sign
Yeah. But even even even though the function of, say, a painting, right?
00:23:40
pjasper
I hadn't considered that.
00:23:45
E Dollar Sign
like So we're going to say, well, a painting doesn't have a function.
00:23:45
pjasper
Yeah.
00:23:47
E Dollar Sign
That's one of the definitions of a painting. Well, I would argue that it might have a function in that you have a giant blank space on a wall that you're trying to fill with ornamentation.
00:23:55
pjasper
Yeah.
00:23:58
E Dollar Sign
And so its function is to fill that space.
00:24:00
pjasper
That's good.
00:24:00
E Dollar Sign
And so that limits exactly what it can and can't do.
00:24:04
pjasper
No, that's a great point about them being inextricably linked. I love that Eric. Good. Another fucking Eric shoot from the hip. Great point.
00:24:11
E Dollar Sign
I got, I got, I get one in episode.
00:24:11
pjasper
That's so good.
00:24:13
E Dollar Sign
I'm out now, I'm done.
00:24:13
pjasper
God damn, you always get me. I swear you always get me. Okay, so one of the things I've noticed about form and surface decoration is that they have to balance each other. And let's talk for a moment about ah striking the right balance. So for example, if you have a very, very highly figured wood, and I mean, it's like eye popping, jaw dropping, wild,
00:24:39
pjasper
you're not going to carve that probably you're not going to do an exquisite carving because it'll just get lost you won't see the carving yeah yeah it it just both of the things would fail you would lose the figuring and you'd lose the carving so it's like two two rights would make a wrong in in essence and then there's the opposite which is
00:24:39
Mary
Thank you.
00:24:59
pjasper
if you had let's say a beautiful architectural sweeping curve or arch and you mucked it up with like carving or pyrography and it just would take away your eye tracing down those lines in the shadowing right so those are two extreme examples of where you'd have one and wouldn't want the other right so you know and I guess if from my own work, i've seen you know i I tend to go more towards like the highly surface decoration, so less on the form.
00:25:33
pjasper
But occasionally, I will move more into form. For example, like the the jewelry coffins. like That coffin shape is pretty ornate, and I put carvings all around the edge of it.
00:25:39
E Dollar Sign
Hmm.
00:25:43
pjasper
But when I did that, I blackened the background. because it was cur its green curly maple. And i wanted to see the I wanted the carvings to speak clearly, so I had to make the black the the background black to try and negate that competition. So how do each of you find that balance between form and surface decoration, or the interplay of
Scale in Figured Woods
00:26:07
pjasper
the two? How do you how do you strike that balance? Mary, why don't you go first?
00:26:11
Mary
Oh, well I don't. That's kind of the answer.
00:26:14
pjasper
ah
00:26:16
Mary
I don't use figured woods that much. One, because yeah I don't really want to spend the money on it because I make larger pieces. ah And two, because
00:26:22
E Dollar Sign
That's totally reasonable.
00:26:27
Mary
So the way I approach designing a piece of furniture comes obviously from the architectural side where I think about it as what is its place within a larger environment and when I think of a piece that I'm designing I don't want attention and like this might be kind of crazy to people but I don't want attention to focus on specific details of a piece I wanted to focus on the overall form and how it fits within the environment itself and a lot of the time yes that manifests in larger kind of more sweeping curves or um shapes a lot of the time I focus a lot on negative space that's kind of the one of the things that I think about the most when I'm designing a piece is the negative space
00:27:12
Mary
um So I don't really do use that many figured woods because I would prefer the the viewer to focus on the form and shape of the piece as a whole.
00:27:24
Mary
as opposed to smaller details. um That being said, I do appreciate it. I just haven't had the opportunity to create these pieces. If I did smaller pieces, like all the time, I think I'd probably get more into it, to be honest, because I think, how do you make something smaller actually interesting? And a lot of the time that comes through this. Yeah.
00:27:47
pjasper
So Mary, that's a great point. And it's something I wanted to bring up eventually, but you brought it up, which is scale. So for some reason, and Eric, you can, you know, elaborate on this too.
00:28:00
pjasper
For some reason, and it is my experience, small things, figured woods on small things looks so fucking good.
00:28:11
pjasper
They look precious.
00:28:13
E Dollar Sign
It's because it's not too much of a good thing.
00:28:13
pjasper
They look,
00:28:15
pjasper
They look ornate, like less is more, right?
00:28:15
Mary
Yeah, it's it's not too overwhelming, which is
00:28:17
E Dollar Sign
Have you, have you ever had that, like, you go to a good meal at a great restaurant and then you get dessert and you're like, Oh, I've heard. so And you, you take a few bites and you're like, Holy shit is this rich.
00:28:31
E Dollar Sign
And when, and when you only have four or five bites on the plate, you're like, Hmm, that was, that was maybe the best dessert I ever had.
00:28:31
pjasper
Right.
00:28:31
Mary
Yeah.
00:28:38
E Dollar Sign
When they give you a bowl of that, you're disgusted by it. Like it is, you know, like it it is that thing of just like, it's too much.
00:28:40
pjasper
Oh, Eric, what a great metaphor.
00:28:46
E Dollar Sign
It's good, but it's too much.
00:28:47
pjasper
Brilliant analogy. That is such a good analogy.
00:28:51
E Dollar Sign
um Thank you. ah Also, ah Mary, i'm gonna I want to push back on what you said about you don't really have a balance or a scale because you don't use figured woods. like That is your balance. Your balance is 95% form, and 5% figured or material or whatever it is, but but the emphasis is on the form.
00:29:15
E Dollar Sign
So balance balance, not in like a a scale, like Lady Liberty kind of scale, but like as a sliding scale, it's it's all the way to one side.
00:29:16
Mary
Yeah, for sure.
00:29:22
Mary
Mm-hmm.
00:29:25
pjasper
All right, Eric, where are you and oh, sorry, go ahead.
00:29:25
Mary
Yeah, definitely.
00:29:27
pjasper
mary Yeah.
00:29:28
Mary
Oh, no, I was just gonna say like when I ah design a piece, I think about the form and the and like the way I want it to feel.
00:29:34
E Dollar Sign
Hmm.
00:29:35
Mary
But the last thing I actually think about is the kind of what I want to make it in because in my mind, I just generally know do I want to be dark? Do I want to be light? Usually I like light because I think that it reflects the rest of the room in the environment really well as opposed to drawing in light.
00:29:51
Mary
But yeah, anyway, that's all I had.
00:29:53
pjasper
So Mary, I actually, and we're going to get to Eric's balance, right? Because ah that's obviously what I want to hear about next. But Mary, I actually had, you know, Conrad said something today about form and I want to see how you react to the statement.
00:30:07
pjasper
So I was talking to my man crush earlier and um what one of the things he said.
00:30:11
E Dollar Sign
Our man crush as a podcast. Thank you
00:30:15
pjasper
ah Well, no, one of the things he said about form, and I thought this was a really interesting way to think about it, is if it's a good form, and we took one of his planes, for instance, right? You know, he's an infill plane maker. He's like, if the form is good, if the shape is good, I could put a plane infill I could put a hot meaning like the wood.
00:30:36
pjasper
I could put highly figured wood in there. I could put plain wood in there and they would both look good because the overall shape and form and it just works. It's just a beautiful form and it will tolerate a highly figured wood.
00:30:49
pjasper
It will tolerate a plain wood.
00:30:52
E Dollar Sign
Tolerate is an interesting word to use there.
00:30:53
pjasper
Well, sorry, sorry.
00:30:54
E Dollar Sign
No, no, no. i like but But I don't think it's wrong.
00:30:54
pjasper
No, that was that was me.
00:30:56
Mary
Except.
00:30:56
pjasper
That was my work.
00:30:57
E Dollar Sign
I don't think it's wrong, right? like that i Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like the point that Conrad's making is the design of the object overall is the most important component in how the material fits within that design.
00:31:10
E Dollar Sign
It can tolerate ah variances.
00:31:13
pjasper
Sorry, he I think I'm misrepresenting it. He's more like, if it's a really good form of design, anything would look good in it. Not tolerate. Tolerates is a little negativity, but any type of wood could look good in that. And that's sort of a litmus test for whether the form itself is strong enough to like play with a variety of woods. like how do you what Mary, what's your... Eric, do you want to react first? Go ahead.
00:31:41
E Dollar Sign
No, I guess i guess the the way that I was thinking of the word tolerate there, and I think you explained it really well, is just like the way that a structure tolerates tension or compression, right?
00:31:52
E Dollar Sign
So like if if it's done, if it's designed well with all of these things in mind, then it can bear a certain load without failure, right?
00:31:52
pjasper
Okay.
00:32:00
pjasper
Okay, I get it. Yeah, yeah.
00:32:04
E Dollar Sign
Mary.
00:32:05
pjasper
What do you think, Mary?
00:32:06
E Dollar Sign
Now the architecture of brain, she's like, fuck you guys.
00:32:06
Mary
Yeah.
00:32:08
E Dollar Sign
Stop talking about tension and load.
00:32:12
Mary
I'm not commenting on that, but... ah Don't love that at all.
00:32:15
pjasper
Open your kimono, Mary.
00:32:17
E Dollar Sign
yeah
00:32:21
Mary
Oh my god.
00:32:23
pjasper
I don't know why Eric said that
00:32:25
E Dollar Sign
I don't know, but if there's a sound bite that's gonna get clipped from this episode, it's false saying, open your kimono, Mary.
00:32:33
Mary
Oh, I understand. I definitely understand where Connor's coming from. I would, again, though, emphasize scale because I can think of just so many examples from like, yeah, yes, yes, I agree in some, you know, in some examples.
00:32:49
pjasper
yeah
00:32:50
Mary
But in other ways, it's like, I know, it's just too much. And also, of course, it's personal preference, like something that's too much for someone else is going to be like, you know,
00:32:56
pjasper
No, but scale.
00:32:59
Mary
Yeah, something i sorry, the something else too much for me could be fine for someone else.
00:33:00
pjasper
Scale, no.
00:33:02
Mary
So like scale for me is probably the most important thing.
00:33:04
pjasper
it It's funny you said that because i so I shot back to Conrad with a picture of a very large dresser entirely in quilted maple and it looked like it had a disease.
00:33:17
pjasper
It looked awful.
00:33:17
E Dollar Sign
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a fair point.
00:33:20
pjasper
It looked like it had smallpox. it was It was like it triggered a feeling of disgust. And so scale is everything with these figured woods.
00:33:29
E Dollar Sign
Yeah.
00:33:29
pjasper
Small scale.
00:33:29
Mary
Yeah, and I think that... People can get away with it a lot more with small scale, but like I i saw, I forget forgot who it was, um I saw some like really, really crazy cabinet or dresser that was beautifully made. But like, and like, ever in my mind, it's like so much respect, crazy craftsmanship, etc. But like, what room is this possibly gonna live in, in which this just doesn't look so out of place? So something that's heat like a larger piece of furniture,
00:34:00
Mary
where it's just off the walls ornamentation, figuring, et cetera. i'm like it's just It's just so much to handle. like I don't know.
00:34:08
pjasper
Yeah.
00:34:08
Mary
I guess that it could be my philosophy of trying to understand where things are placed in their environments.
00:34:09
pjasper
Where's that going to live?
00:34:13
Mary
But for something that big, I just don't know.
00:34:16
E Dollar Sign
who's Who's the guy who does like the super textured, usually black, chest to drawers, armoires, Caleb something?
00:34:25
Mary
Oh, Casey?
00:34:26
pjasper
cal Caleb Phenomenal.
00:34:28
E Dollar Sign
Caleb Woodard, yes.
00:34:28
Mary
Oh, Kate.
00:34:29
E Dollar Sign
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. His work is phenomenal. he's He's incredible at what he does. And his his his surface decoration, his forms, that it's beautiful.
00:34:41
E Dollar Sign
It's 11 out of 10. I would never have that in my house. Like, I don't know what am I going to do with it? Where is it going to go? Like to to the point of scale, they're, they're physically imposing pieces and they're visually heavy.
00:34:53
pjasper
These are for up like, you know, Manhattan high rises where the apartment or the condo looks more like a museum, honestly.
00:35:01
E Dollar Sign
Of course, of course, of course.
00:35:01
Mary
Yeah, everything else around it matches that aesthetic.
00:35:04
pjasper
Yes.
00:35:04
Mary
And like, if it's just a one off piece in your house, like, that's gonna stick out like a sore, sore thumb.
00:35:09
E Dollar Sign
Of course, but I think what happens early on in in regards to Figured Woods specifically is like Caleb has the skill of somebody who's been doing it for whatever 30 years or however long he's been doing it. Nobody is going to match his skill anytime soon without putting in decades of work.
00:35:27
E Dollar Sign
And so what we often do early on is we go, holy shit, I want to be Caleb. How can I get closer to what Caleb is? Because the thing that he's doing is gorgeous, but I don't have the skill to do it.
00:35:35
pjasper
Yeah.
00:35:40
E Dollar Sign
So I'm going to try to supplement that with highly figured material and see if I can get there. And then we learn that that doesn't get us any closer to Caleb. That just means we made a shitty chest of drawers out of curly purple heart and I like.
00:35:52
pjasper
so So Eric, you know, I've noticed that certain woods, ah certain figured woods, oh, I should have said this earlier in the episode, I'm sorry. What I meant to say earlier in the episode, just as a small aside, is like if you're not a woodworker, if you're into ceramics, or if you're into glass, like there's parallels to everything we're talking about here.
00:36:09
E Dollar Sign
Hmm.
00:36:11
E Dollar Sign
Yeah. Yeah.
00:36:13
pjasper
It doesn't have to be figured wood. It could be like speckled clay or like a wild underglaze, right?
00:36:19
E Dollar Sign
Oil paint versus acrylic paint, like whatever it is.
00:36:19
pjasper
it Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:36:22
Mary
Yeah.
00:36:22
pjasper
So yeah, so for all of our non, I'm sorry, because this is the thing that the medium, the three of us are most familiar with. But for all of you non woodworkers, like, I think the principles extend, regardless of medium.
00:36:22
E Dollar Sign
Yeah.
00:36:33
E Dollar Sign
Mm hmm.
00:36:35
pjasper
Okay, so that was my small side.
00:36:35
E Dollar Sign
Agreed.
00:36:36
pjasper
But back to the question. So Eric, one thing I noticed is that even within figured woods, as a general umbrella term, there's loud, and there's more quiet.
00:36:44
E Dollar Sign
Mmhmm. Mmhmm.
00:36:46
pjasper
So for example, like, You know, I don't know if any of you are familiar with like curly maple or Corellian birch or bird's eye maple like it. It's so like the pattern is so jarring that if you make something in in that in that would like from across the room.
00:37:05
pjasper
ah you're It's gonna scream at you, okay? So Mary, back to your point of size and what room it lives in, right? Whereas a figured walnut, because it's a dark brown cappuccino espresso, it's got this subtleness to it that is like, hey baby, how you doing?
00:37:26
pjasper
I'm cool.
00:37:26
E Dollar Sign
Well, and it also in fairness, that's yeah I it's a great point that you're making, right?
00:37:27
pjasper
it's what You know what I mean? like
00:37:31
E Dollar Sign
So lighter woods tend to reflect more everything's about light, lighter woods will reflect more light. And so those undulations in the in the the curl become louder.
00:37:42
E Dollar Sign
And it feels like this bright golden thing. It's like, you know, walking into somebody's apartment and everything is gold plated. You're like, Holy Jesus Christ, like, are you?
00:37:49
pjasper
I only know one person who added that.
00:37:50
E Dollar Sign
Cool. Yeah, I know as and I was gonna make a small penis joke, but I feel like that's already like we know ah ah okay um But but a ah Dark material is gonna absorb more light so the undulations become harder to see however That doesn't necessarily mean that it's less busy Because number one that darker material is gonna have a lot more visual weight to it So it's gonna absorb that light and become this black hole somewhere in the room, but also like
00:37:52
pjasper
ah
00:37:57
pjasper
Not time. yeah Not time for that.
00:38:07
Mary
Yep.
00:38:22
E Dollar Sign
one of the um kind of biggest mistakes I consistently made earlier on in my career is walnut burl. Like it's it's fairly readily available.
00:38:32
pjasper
Hmm.
00:38:33
E Dollar Sign
So you could get it, you can veneer with it. And it's really interesting. But it's so busy.
00:38:38
pjasper
Hmm.
00:38:39
E Dollar Sign
It's just so difficult to do anything like genuinely elegant with, right?
00:38:40
pjasper
It is.
Walnut Burl: Design Challenges
00:38:45
pjasper
I agree, Eric. People offer me burl.
00:38:46
E Dollar Sign
It's it's hard.
00:38:47
pjasper
People ask me, do you want to buy this burl? And I have a lot of burl already in my shop.
00:38:51
E Dollar Sign
Yeah, I've got sheets of it.
00:38:52
pjasper
And i don't it's so hard to design with because you have to have restraint and discipline and only certain sizes.
00:38:53
E Dollar Sign
Sheets of it. awesome
00:39:00
pjasper
And I i wind up not going through that much. of it I love it when I use it. It's it's so it's like jaw-droppingly beautiful, but you can only use it on very certain applications.
00:39:04
E Dollar Sign
Yeah. Yeah.
00:39:11
E Dollar Sign
Well, it's like, I mean, this isn't Walnut, but the, the Stadia boxes that you made, right? And the one that I have is ah a maple burl. Yeah. And it's gorgeous.
00:39:22
E Dollar Sign
It's beautiful. It's, it's lovely, but it is that, that issue of scale where like you can hold it in your hands and it feels like it has a certain gravitas to it in spite of its smallness.
00:39:33
E Dollar Sign
Whereas if you had made that, you know, a blanket chest, you'd be like, what the fuck are you doing, dog?
00:39:40
pjasper
What is this abomination?
00:39:41
E Dollar Sign
ah Right, what is this? You just hollowed out a ah tree. Like, what happened? It's too much.
00:39:47
Mary
isnt It's interesting because so when I took my parents to Nagashima and there was burl there, my parents have no understanding of like what wood even is, basically.
00:39:55
E Dollar Sign
Hmm.
00:39:57
Mary
And they saw the burl and they're like, that's not wood, right? like That doesn't look like wood that we've seen. Because they just have no concept or like understanding of like there's different types types of grain.
00:40:04
E Dollar Sign
Right.
00:40:07
Mary
They don't even know like the difference of like tree species.
00:40:10
E Dollar Sign
Hmm.
00:40:10
Mary
like different colors etc so like they saw the bro and they're like wow this is really gorgeous but like is this wood it doesn't even look like familiar to my eye you're welcome excellent
00:40:16
E Dollar Sign
This is a really weird stone.
00:40:17
pjasper
Mary.
00:40:20
pjasper
Mary, this is the best segue ever, by the way. you du it's not even It's not even planned. So I actually prepared a small segment on the science behind Burl's and Figured Woods.
00:40:32
E Dollar Sign
Yeah, you did. Okay, all right, all right.
00:40:35
pjasper
i can't That was like the last thing we had to get to. And Mary, you like, you like teed me off, like unbelievably. I was like, I can't believe she's saying this right now. So
00:40:45
Mary
You're welcome.
00:40:46
pjasper
You know, there's been, so there's been a lot of consternation among woodworkers about why is one tree figured or curly or burly and the next one isn't.
Figured Woods: Rarity and Genetics
00:41:00
pjasper
So I did a literature review to try and drill down to like, what is the truth? Well, like, what do we know about these figured trees? By the way, do you guys want to guess what percentage of trees they are?
00:41:14
pjasper
So what percentage of a, and now I know it's going to vary between species, blah, blah, blah.
00:41:16
E Dollar Sign
Ooh.
00:41:19
E Dollar Sign
Sure, sure, sure.
00:41:19
pjasper
Like ah let's, let's give just a rough estimate. Is it what percent?
00:41:24
E Dollar Sign
Of, of how many trees in a given species have figure.
00:41:27
pjasper
Yes, out of a like let's say out of so many maple trees, how many of them are figured? ah Why don't you give it just a rough estimate? just just let's listen just get a okay it's well and in I think in maple it is, in some species it's as high as 10, but that's the highest you'll ever get.
00:41:38
E Dollar Sign
Six percent.
00:41:40
Mary
Oh, I was gonna say 10?
00:41:51
pjasper
It's usually about 0.1%.
00:41:51
E Dollar Sign
Hmm Darn you Wow really really part in the kimono as to why it's so expensive, huh?
00:41:51
Mary
Oh wow.
00:41:55
Mary
Really?
00:41:56
pjasper
One in 10,000 trees have figured, usually.
00:41:56
Mary
Wow. That's why it's so expensive.
00:42:03
pjasper
ah Eric, stop it with the kimono!
00:42:09
E Dollar Sign
I'm making that our first official t-shirt
00:42:12
pjasper
pardoning me
00:42:12
Mary
I don't like this at all.
00:42:14
pjasper
very
00:42:15
E Dollar Sign
if if a If anybody's watching the the video feed, you just need to watch Mary's face when I say that in the epic frown face that she has.
00:42:22
pjasper
Mary, can you give the viewers an epic frown for the Patreon? Yeah, look at that. That is the most epic frown.
00:42:28
E Dollar Sign
is If you just think of the frown emoji, it's literally that.
00:42:32
Mary
It's a perfect semicircle.
00:42:35
pjasper
Okay, so ah yes, so it turns out they're pretty rare, one in a thousand, one in 10,000 typically. Now that's for figured trees like that's like Curl and Mr. Birch, right?
00:42:46
pjasper
Okay, so ah people like to ask, well, is it genetic? Can I take a figured tree and take it's like acorns or somehow, you know, whatever method it propagates and can I grow little baby figured trees from it?
00:43:01
E Dollar Sign
Hmm.
00:43:02
pjasper
And it turns out that they've tested this. And I didn't know this prior to today. It turns out some the answer is yes and some the answer is no.
00:43:10
E Dollar Sign
Really? Really?
00:43:12
Mary
Hmm.
00:43:13
pjasper
So it turns out it depends on the type of figuring. So, for example, there's ah there's reports from the 1950s of Masur Birch. I think, you know, Birch has this bizarre mutation that we call the Corellian Birch or Masur Birch. It looks like clouds in the sky. It's like all a disorganized grain and it's got like these bark inclusions.
00:43:35
pjasper
And apparently, they've shown that that can be like you can take the parent, you can propagate it, and the children trees have it like 100% of the time.
00:43:41
E Dollar Sign
No shit.
00:43:43
Mary
Hm.
00:43:44
E Dollar Sign
Huh.
00:43:44
pjasper
So that is a genetic, heritable ah figure mutation. There are, then I read about another case. This was the really interesting case. It was in Walnut. Okay. So in 1926, there was a huge Walnut tree um found in Ada, Michigan. I don't know if any of you live near Michigan, Ada, Michigan, but whatever. In 1926, this guy named George Lamb identified this magnificent huge walnut tree.
00:44:15
pjasper
It was curly through the sapwood into the heartwood and the heartwood was so beautifully straight and but curl all through it like it was a magnificent tree.
00:44:26
pjasper
They estimate that by today's standards if you've veneered this tree it would have been worth over a hundred thousand dollars. All right just that one tree alone.
00:44:35
Mary
Wow.
00:44:37
pjasper
and And we call it like Lamb's Curly Tree, like ah George Lamb is the guy who, and so it's called Lamb's Curly Tree.
00:44:43
E Dollar Sign
Lambs curly tree. I gotta look at this No, you can usually see I'm trying to Okay, I'm listening I'm here I'm here for you
00:44:46
pjasper
Okay, so what happened?
00:44:47
Mary
I have a dumb, wait, I have a dumb question. How do they know if it's curly? Do they take a core sample, I guess?
00:44:52
pjasper
they I mean, that that tree was harvested, by the way. It was completely harvested.
00:44:56
Mary
Oh, it was.
00:44:57
pjasper
Yeah, so it was curly throughout. There's pictures of it on the internet if you, Lamb's Curly Walnut.
00:44:59
Mary
Oh.
00:45:02
pjasper
If any of you want to Google that right now, feel free. Okay. So, but, but Eric, I don't want to lose you. I don't want to lose you to tune back in. All right. So it turns out that they took like certain tissue from that tree and were able to propagate it into three other trees. Both of you get off your goddamn computers, Mary. I can see you typing.
00:45:24
Mary
okay i'm done
00:45:25
E Dollar Sign
She's bad for the person who literally spends her days pretending to listen to meetings while doing other things on the internet. You're really bad at that.
00:45:34
pjasper
Okay, so they took tissue, ah propagated it from that tree into three other trees and that those three progeny trees were allowed to grow to about 30 years of age because figure does relate to age.
00:45:47
Mary
Okay, I'm done.
00:45:48
pjasper
it needs The tree needs to be a certain size and age to actually manifest the figure. And they tested the three baby trees. Now, how do you know they're baby trees? Because there's a lot of consternation.
00:45:59
pjasper
Oh, maybe it's not really. up Well, they actually did genetic testing on the baby trees. They did, you know, microsatellite DNA so ah sequencing and compared it to the original and they showed that.
00:46:06
E Dollar Sign
I totally know what that means so Nerd
00:46:11
pjasper
Well, don't worry about it.
00:46:12
Mary
microsatellite.
00:46:13
pjasper
Yeah, it's called microsatellite DNA yeah sequencing. No, it just it just it proves it proves that the you are not the father says more.
00:46:25
pjasper
And this gives you are the father. OK, they did DNA testing and they found that these trees are undeniably the progeny clones of the original lamb tree.
00:46:36
E Dollar Sign
What question?
00:46:36
pjasper
And what percent of go ahead.
00:46:38
E Dollar Sign
Uh, so they took already living like saplings, I assume, and then injected the DNA or grafted something into it.
00:46:44
pjasper
i the they No, no, no. they They can take a certain type of wood off the tree and graft it or propagate it somehow.
00:46:52
E Dollar Sign
Okay. Okay.
00:46:52
pjasper
it's It's in the paper. it's in the i'
00:46:53
E Dollar Sign
Okay.
00:46:55
pjasper
But upon genetic testing, you know, 30, 50 years later, because this was in 1957, that they started like, in in I mean, this tree was harvested in 1926, they had the tissue, and they were somehow able to propagate it.
00:47:05
E Dollar Sign
Mm hmm.
00:47:07
pjasper
And this paper is only from 2015.
00:47:09
E Dollar Sign
Oh, damn.
00:47:10
pjasper
So this is like, almost a century later, right? Because the tree, the baby trees took a bunch of time to grow.
00:47:13
E Dollar Sign
Hmm.
00:47:16
pjasper
Of the three that were genetically identical to their original lamb curly walnut, how many of them had figure?
00:47:27
E Dollar Sign
Three.
00:47:27
Mary
One.
00:47:30
E Dollar Sign
It's going to be two.
00:47:30
pjasper
one, one, and it was in just a little section of it.
00:47:35
pjasper
It wasn't even much, and they were clones, literal genetic copies. So so what that says, Eric, I'm sure it was probably about 80 to 100, and the the you know the babies were probably 30 plus, 30 something.
00:47:35
E Dollar Sign
Really.
00:47:41
E Dollar Sign
So how, how old, how old was the original tree when they harvested it?
00:47:49
E Dollar Sign
Okay.
00:47:52
E Dollar Sign
Okay.
00:47:53
pjasper
Now, Eric, you're gonna raise a caveat that you know ill maybe you know given more years, they'd
00:47:57
E Dollar Sign
No, no, I was just, yeah I would let finish your point. I was just curious.
00:48:01
pjasper
Okay, but the point is, curl in walnut does not appear to be a heritable trait where you could just take a sapling or take the wood of one, clone it, and you're gonna get beautiful throughout the heartwood curl in the progeny.
00:48:16
pjasper
So sometimes it is heritable, and sometimes it's not, which speaks to a larger issue because when you say, well, what is figured wood?
00:48:17
Mary
Interesting.
00:48:24
pjasper
It's like a, it's like a, aberration of what you normally see.
00:48:28
E Dollar Sign
Hmm.
00:48:29
pjasper
And that can come from a genetic ah predisposition, just like humans. right right that It could be a genetic ah abnormality.
00:48:34
E Dollar Sign
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
00:48:39
pjasper
It can be ah a an environmental, like wind, right? When trees flex, it compresses the grain, and then it stretches the grain, and then it's...
00:48:48
E Dollar Sign
like a crotch at a branch. Those fibers are always going to curl underweight.
00:48:50
pjasper
Exactly. It could be so iron in the water. We know iron makes dark lines in walnut, right?
00:48:57
E Dollar Sign
Mm.
00:48:58
pjasper
Dark striations if there's a lot of iron content in the water. It could be, and I remember this, I'll never forget this, this tree that ah Mr. Z Earth, a friend of mine ah told me about, the entire core of the tree was rotten, which means all the weight was compressed on the outer sapwood.
00:49:13
E Dollar Sign
and
00:49:16
pjasper
And it turned into like crinkled maple. It looks like a topographical map. it's the most wild maple I've ever seen and it was a mechanical thing the core couldn't support the weight because it was all rotten and all that weight sandwiched the wood like an accordion and it got this beautiful figuring through it so you know I think this is why no one in the woodworking world can give you a straight answer because it's not one answer It depends, it sometimes it's genetic, sometimes it's genetic and environmental, other times it's purely environmental and it depends on the species, it depends on the location, it depends on you know where you know what type of wood we're talking. So I think that's why there's so much confusion about figured woods. And the last piece is what is burl tissue? Burl tissue is essentially
00:50:06
pjasper
a benign tumor on a tree. So I don't know if any of you have a benign tumor.
00:50:11
Mary
It looks like it.
00:50:12
E Dollar Sign
ah
00:50:12
pjasper
um I have a little lipoma on my shoulder like this little bump, right, which is a little fat tissue, right.
00:50:14
E Dollar Sign
How is that?
00:50:18
pjasper
And so
00:50:18
E Dollar Sign
I'd show you but I'd have to part the kimono.
00:50:21
pjasper
So burl tissue is essentially an irregular bud of the the growth of the tree that just keeps getting covered. And it can't come to it can't come out to form a new branch or a new you know set of leaves. And it just keeps it just keeps getting bigger and bigger. And it grows through every season. It's not seasonal. It grows uncontrollably in every season. And it just gets bigger and bigger and bigger.
00:50:44
E Dollar Sign
So the way I usually describe it to students, and I'm, I'm asking you if you would agree or disagree with me on this, uh, is I usually tell them like, yeah, like it's a cancerous growth. I usually just say like, it's like an ingrown toenail, like it just kind of like curled around and then didn't know what to do.
00:50:59
pjasper
No. All right. So it's it's a cancerous growth, meaning the tissue is growing in an uncontrolled fashion, but it does not kill the tree.
00:51:08
E Dollar Sign
Hmm.
00:51:08
pjasper
So if it killed the tree, we call that malignant in humans, right? You have malignant cancer and it kills you.
00:51:12
E Dollar Sign
Hmm.
00:51:14
pjasper
And then there's benign cancer and it just kind of sits there and doesn't do anything to you.
00:51:20
E Dollar Sign
Okay.
00:51:20
pjasper
It's just like a bump, right?
00:51:21
E Dollar Sign
All right.
00:51:21
pjasper
like and we we know Yeah, it's like a benign, so it's it's basically a benign form of cancer on a tree, essentially.
00:51:24
E Dollar Sign
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:51:29
pjasper
It's a growth, but it doesn't kill the tree.
00:51:32
E Dollar Sign
Okay. I guess that's it. That's a fair, uh, distinction. The reason I usually shat away from the cancer analogy is because then people immediately think that it's going to kill the tree. So they're like, well, we have to cut it off.
00:51:41
pjasper
No, it's a, well, you have benign and malignant, right?
00:51:42
E Dollar Sign
I'm like, no, you don't like it'll be fine.
00:51:45
pjasper
manign Malignant kills you and benign doesn't, yeah, so.
00:51:45
E Dollar Sign
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's fair. That's fair. This is why I'm not a doctor.
00:51:48
pjasper
But what's so beautiful about burl is that the tissue is so disrupted and so, like the grain goes in every direction. It's swirling and it's it's got bark and it's got heartwood and it's got curl and it's got it's just so cool, but you only get that through a disruption of the normal biological process.
00:52:08
E Dollar Sign
The problem with a burl from a design standpoint is you can't book match it without discovering a face.
00:52:15
Mary
That's true.
00:52:16
E Dollar Sign
It's impossible. we are We are hardwired to see patterns and specifically facial patterns in every single time I've bookmatched a burl.
00:52:21
Mary
Yep.
00:52:27
E Dollar Sign
I'm like, this is the one. This one's just going to be beautiful. It's going to look like a kaleidoscope. And then you look at it from another angle and you're like, God damn it, there's the evil face.
00:52:35
pjasper
Well, to all the listeners, that's a word of warning. Don't part the kimono and don't and don't book match your burl.
00:52:39
E Dollar Sign
Yep. Yeah.
00:52:45
pjasper
Alright, we're at the 52 minute mark. It's probably time for us to pivot to our next segment. so We are going to ah pivot to something I think that's relevant today.
00:52:59
pjasper
We've had a lot of bad news in the world recently with ah the hurricane Helen, Helen, who's you know come through and the the new one that's brewing in the in the Gulf of Mexico right now.
00:53:13
Mary
In Florida.
00:53:14
pjasper
Yeah, it's just scary as hell.
00:53:14
Mary
Yeah.
00:53:16
pjasper
And all the divisive talk about politics, we thought, why don't we let the segment be something positive.
00:53:27
pjasper
So we're going to talk about, we're going to call it inspiration station today.
00:53:28
E Dollar Sign
love that
00:53:32
pjasper
We're going to talk about something that has, ah you know, perked us up or made us a little happier. We need to spread a little bit of a little bit of good juju.
00:53:42
E Dollar Sign
I love that. I want somebody to cross stitch inspiration stations so that we can put it above Paul's fireplace.
00:53:51
pjasper
So who wants to go first? Who wants to talk about something that lit you up, made you feel good this week?
00:54:02
pjasper
Are you all, you're thinking of your answers, yeah.
00:54:02
Mary
trying to think yeah or thinking about yeah
00:54:04
E Dollar Sign
Yeah. Um, well, here's, here's what I'll say. ah So on Sunday was my birthday, as we already discussed, and at the ah ah several of my friends were coming into town on Friday to do some things. And then What ended up happening is as word spread that sunday was my birthday.
00:54:27
Mary
Hmm, trying to think. Yeah, I'm thinking about, yeah.
00:54:32
E Dollar Sign
ah People stayed longer and more folks came down and we ended up having a little kind of birthday bash now i am i will say this i am not one to celebrate my birthday it's not a thing that i really care about um and i don't.
00:54:48
E Dollar Sign
I draw enough attention to myself in my day to day that I don't feel necessary ah or or good about drawing extra attention to myself around my birthday.
00:54:52
Mary
True.
00:54:58
E Dollar Sign
um But I will say.
00:55:00
Mary
But weren't you knocking on my door at midnight the night before being like, it's my birthday, Barry. So I seem to remember that.
00:55:06
E Dollar Sign
Was I? Was I doing that? If I was, ah I was not of a sober mindset. I wasn't, folks. ah But I will say that I felt very loved by my friends and and you know all the texts that I got and in phone calls that I got and folks coming in um you know just to to spend the day was a really wonderful thing.
00:55:35
pjasper
That's nice.
00:55:35
pjasper
I like that.
00:55:35
Mary
Nice.
00:55:38
Mary
Um, okay. I'll go. So inspiration station. This is not woodworking related per se, but I have been, um, filming myself over this last build cause I wanted to actually do something, like create something and document it for myself.
00:55:56
Mary
And I have been diving deep into this rabbit hole of YouTube, like cinematic bloggers and just like,
00:55:56
pjasper
Hmm.
00:56:04
Mary
this art of storytelling, the art of filmmaking, and I'm really, really inspired by all these filmmakers. And a lot of them are, um I would actually classify them as like filmmakers who happen to YouTube or who happen to vlog because the way they approach it is like such an interesting art of filmmaking and storytelling and like cinematography, color grading, music, like every single aspect of it.
00:56:28
Mary
Because I think a lot of my world and a lot of our friends, we live in this world of just like, we're doing YouTube for the sake of like trying to, you know, make content, get word out there, e etc. But it always feels kind of like a burden, I guess. And what I really like about these people is that they genuinely love it and they're doing it for the reasons because they want to create these stories to tell to the world.
00:56:51
Mary
And they do it in an aesthetic way, obviously. That's kind of that's why I was so that drawn to them.
00:56:55
E Dollar Sign
That's kind of your thing.
00:56:58
Mary
But like it's also super inspiring to see YouTubers who are like genuinely really, really passionate about filmmaking. And it's making me like want to be more inspired and get into it.
00:57:09
Mary
So I've been enjoying that.
00:57:09
E Dollar Sign
Are you going to take up another hobby?
00:57:13
Mary
yeah Well, the amount of time that I've been spending on these videos, it is reminiscent of when I enter a new hobby. And like I'm buying you know like lenses.
00:57:23
Mary
I have access to to like filmmaking people through work. I've been bugging them a lot. It's starting to encroach on a new hobby, unfortunately, which I don't have time for.
00:57:32
E Dollar Sign
Is Mary about to become a YouTuber?
00:57:35
pjasper
Mary, I've noticed you've been talking to the camera more on some of your videos.
00:57:35
Mary
Well, I'm gonna...
00:57:37
E Dollar Sign
She has. She has.
00:57:40
pjasper
Just so everyone knows, Mary was like, I never talked to the camera, Paul, never.
00:57:41
Mary
I...
00:57:42
E Dollar Sign
Uh-huh.
00:57:46
E Dollar Sign
Oh, she was very much an elitist about it.
00:57:49
Mary
I don't like to do it, but seeing these people, I'm like, oh, there's a way that to do it where it ah where I would feel comfortable putting it into a video. So it depends how you frame it.
00:57:58
E Dollar Sign
who Who are some of these YouTubers that you're pulling inspiration from?
00:58:02
Mary
There's one girl I really like, Life of RZA. She's just this Canadian girl, and she literally just YouTubes her life, but she does it in such a beautiful way. and her so Her choice of like music and like sound effects, everything is gorgeous. Another girl is Natalie Lynn, who is 22. 20 years old, I think like so young, but like an incredible eye for cinematography and storytelling and she does it with like the most basic equipment too. um But it's it's like apparently this new it's called New Wave YouTube. I think it's like young YouTubers all in their I think like young like 20s 30s and it's all just like considered cinematic v blogging. It's a whole thing. I don't know.
00:58:45
E Dollar Sign
So so i've I've always been, I don't mean to to to pick on this person in any way.
00:58:45
pjasper
Hmm.
00:58:51
E Dollar Sign
this is They're making you happy and inspiring you, and they're doing a wonderful job of that, and I'm grateful for that.
00:58:54
pjasper
I love it.
00:58:56
E Dollar Sign
i I'm always very curious about like the arcs and trajectories of trends and styles.
00:59:04
Mary
Yeah.
00:59:04
E Dollar Sign
um And so just like Kaiser kind of is in a side example, I watched Deadpool and Wolverine ah last night, which by the way, is fucking hilarious.
00:59:14
Mary
Oh, nice. Yep.
00:59:18
E Dollar Sign
um But what was really interesting to me, I hate. nostalgia baiting. Like it makes me really angry that there are no new ideas and people are just like, Hey, remember Aladdin?
00:59:29
E Dollar Sign
Yeah, we we did it again. Like that's not you're not doing anything interesting. But what they did was ah in that movie, I saw it start to turn meta and it started to turn to the point where where it's it's well, yeah, but it's also it's turning that
00:59:40
Mary
Yeah, I mean, that's Deadpool.
00:59:46
E Dollar Sign
into satire, which is the first step in the death of a genre. ah So obviously the the reason I bring this up is like vlogs um went out of style like 10 years ago, right?
00:59:57
Mary
Yeah.
00:59:58
E Dollar Sign
But now there is something happened where enough time has passed or somebody did it in just a new way where it catches the right wave and is starting to come back up again.
01:00:02
Mary
Yeah.
01:00:07
E Dollar Sign
And that's a really interesting thing.
01:00:09
Mary
Yeah, it is a hundred percent a trend and I am on board for it. No, I mean I
01:00:14
E Dollar Sign
She's like, low rise jeans are back baby, let's go.
01:00:17
Mary
Think I think because I never I Think it's because I never Got into YouTube like I never really watched YouTube channels until I think during COVID actually That's when I got like super bored and was at home.
01:00:19
pjasper
Low-rise kimonos, Eric.
01:00:31
Mary
It's like alright get into it and and I had never seen vlogs that had interested me before and like this style so I'm absolutely the audience of like people who never knew this past trend and like like oh wow it's so cool and new now but yeah
01:00:47
E Dollar Sign
Interesting. Okay. All right. Uh, Paul, what makes you happy buddy?
01:00:52
pjasper
Yeah, so ah you know one of the things I noticed this morning, and I was, again, I'll talk about my boyfriend who I was talking to this morning. One of the things I reflected to him,
01:01:02
E Dollar Sign
That your relationship with him is really escalated this episode. I don't know if he's aware of that.
01:01:05
pjasper
as Well, it has been escalating over the past few months, but we talk nearly every day. right One of the things I reflected to him this morning is that staying in a good mindset about being appreciative and not feeling the rat race and feeling gratitude and just feeling that peace and calm and that centeredness, it takes work.
01:01:27
pjasper
It takes daily work. I don't necessarily wake up there. Some days it's like fucking gray and raining out and I'm like, I'm just like not feeling it.
01:01:33
E Dollar Sign
Yeah. yeah
01:01:38
pjasper
And I want to be there. I want to be in that like centered. you know, fulfilled moment of like, feeling like empathy towards humans and like, you know, you know what I'm talking about.
01:01:51
pjasper
You just want that good feeling in your body, right in your heart and your body.
01:01:52
E Dollar Sign
as
01:01:56
pjasper
And it's like, you actually have to do work to get there. And then that begs the question, well, what do you do to get that good feeling if you're not there when you wake up in the morning?
01:02:08
pjasper
And of course, the first
01:02:08
Mary
Drugs.
01:02:09
pjasper
I was gonna say, the first answer is caffeine, right? Of course, right?
01:02:14
E Dollar Sign
Those aren't the drugs she's talking about.
01:02:15
pjasper
Well, those are the drugs I'm talking about. Like a vitamin D, a like a little caffeine.
01:02:22
Mary
Happy drugs.
01:02:25
E Dollar Sign
Jesus Christ. This is a PG show, Mary.
01:02:29
pjasper
But um I realized that by, you know and then we had this this long conversation about you know form and figured woods and function.
01:02:38
E Dollar Sign
so
01:02:39
pjasper
And like after about an hour of like some back and forth, I was there. I was like feeling like, oh man, art's so cool. like Think about this balance and how we strike that balance in every project.
01:02:52
pjasper
And Eric, you were saying, we don't know where we are in that balance in the middle of the project.
01:02:55
E Dollar Sign
Mm.
01:02:56
pjasper
Boy, that just like kind of lit me up. I was just like feeling good. So that's one of the things like just having friends who I can talk to about like cool things like that. It just makes me feel better in general every day. And the other thing is a new thing for me. So I became friends with this guy, Phil. So Phil recently invited me to give a talk at Lexington Arts, which is a makerspace in Lexington, Mass. And Phil's a volunteer there. And Phil's new to woodworking.
01:03:26
pjasper
and very new to woodworking, maybe a year or two. And he is ah watching him go through the love affair with woodworking.
01:03:37
E Dollar Sign
Ooh.
01:03:38
pjasper
like he just is Like he's discovering hand tools. He's right in it. He's like, I bought my third plane. What should I get for my fourth plane? He's like, I tried that plane. It's amazing.
01:03:49
pjasper
He made his first dovetail box this week. And just watching the joy through him vicariously has brought me joy. Like it reminds me of what it's like when you you make that first hand cut dovetail box and you're like, son of a bitch, I did it.
01:04:01
E Dollar Sign
Mmhmm. Mmhmm.
01:04:07
pjasper
I did it with hand tools. And he's like lit on fire. He went on vacation with his wife like a day ago and he's like, obviously I can't bring the shop with me but I'm gonna design my next piece and he's bringing like books to read and just seeing that
01:04:18
E Dollar Sign
Oh, that obsession.
01:04:20
pjasper
right? Just seeing that in someone else reminds you of the fire that that that you feel for this craft.
01:04:21
E Dollar Sign
Yeah, yeah.
01:04:28
pjasper
And that has, I mean, honestly, just watching his enjoyment, his like love of it, and like texting with him and like, Oh, maybe you maybe should check this out or maybe you should check that out.
01:04:38
pjasper
And he's like, it's all excited. Watching that joy has brought me joy.
01:04:44
E Dollar Sign
You know, ah that makes me, I wanna add an addendum to my answer. And this is a positive seg, so we're just gonna add more positivity on top. um I had a moment like that the other day, and I don't get a lot of those moments anymore, right? like We've talked about chasing the dragon, plenty on this show. ah And it's very rare at this point that there is something that I do or something that I ah buy or bring into the shop that gets me like excited the way that I was excited early on when like I got a new toy, got a new tool. And I went out to the Hearn open house on Friday. And my amazing friend Leslie Webb was there who who runs Heartwood tools and is a seller of H and&T Gordon planes.
01:05:35
E Dollar Sign
And I have had one H and&T Gordon plane for a decade. It was a gift. It's a dado plane. It's one of the prettiest tools I own. And I have wanted their smoother plane for 10 years.
01:05:46
Mary
Oh, nice.
01:05:47
E Dollar Sign
And I've never, I've never let myself do it. Cause I have like four number fours. I have a handful of number fives. Like there's no reason for me to have it. And like, I was just sitting there talking to her and it was one of those moments where I was like, you know what?
01:06:01
E Dollar Sign
I can buy this thing. that I've wanted for a decade and I can support my friend's business doing it. And so so I pulled the trigger and I brought it home and guys, it was like It was like Christmas as a kid again. Like I was opening it and I was like, I legitimately worked myself up into like a holy shit. I can't believe I get to have this thing now. And I put it together, I sharpened it up. And I will say this, it's a fucking delight to use. It is it is worth the 10 year wait. It was amazing. But it's like, it was ah even as I was in that moment, I was like, I haven't felt this way about a woodworking tool.
01:06:40
E Dollar Sign
I don't know. Like since before I went to CFC, maybe like there's just not a lot of those moments anymore. And it was really, it was great to be in that moment and recognizing that that moment was happening at the same time.
01:06:46
pjasper
That's great.
01:06:52
pjasper
Eric, I love that.
01:06:52
Mary
Is that one a push or pull plane?
01:06:54
pjasper
Pull.
01:06:54
E Dollar Sign
Yes.
01:06:55
Mary
It could be both.
01:06:56
E Dollar Sign
It can't, it can't be both, but yeah, it's, it's more pull than push.
01:06:58
Mary
Okay. Okay.
01:07:01
E Dollar Sign
Yeah.
01:07:02
pjasper
All right, good juju kids. That was nice. I like that. Eric, I love that. And you're right. It comes at the more experience you get, the more infrequent the moments are. So you like treasure them when they actually do hit. All right. On that note, what we're going to do in the after show, I'll tell you that right now. If you're, if you, um, support us on Patreon, you get the after show. And what we're going to talk about in the after show is where we get our figured woods from is specifically, cause they're kind of hard to find.
01:07:29
pjasper
And so we're going to go through like where we source them specifically, uh, and give you the names. And then we're going to talk about the shittiest wood we've ever bought. but I can't wait to talk about that.
01:07:43
E Dollar Sign
Oh, yeah.
01:07:44
pjasper
And what a waste of money that was.
01:07:45
E Dollar Sign
Oh, yeah.
01:07:47
pjasper
All right. So that's on tap for the after show. But before we sign off, I want to thank our most recent patrons, Lee Wheeler, Tai who Jonathan sick, Andrew, they, he Mike Smith, David, and.
01:07:51
E Dollar Sign
Oh,
01:07:59
pjasper
what sounds like a law firm, Juan Gabriel Freire Lopez.
01:08:05
E Dollar Sign
hell yeah. That's a power name right there.
01:08:07
pjasper
if you're If you don't own a law firm, you should because I'm pretty sure there's an accident victim waiting for you.
01:08:14
E Dollar Sign
or just open an LLC and people will call you assuming that you're a lawyer.
01:08:19
pjasper
All right, kids. Well, we hope you had enjoyed our discussion today on balancing form function sorry excuse me function first, Eric.
01:08:29
pjasper
Function, form, and surface decoration and how to balance them and some of the concerns of using figured woods. And with that, we will see you in your kimono in the after show.
01:08:42
Mary
Oh no!
01:08:44
E Dollar Sign
i'll be in a kimono okay by
01:08:46
Mary
Oh no!
01:08:46
pjasper
Bye.
01:09:10
E Dollar Sign
I'll be in a kimono, okay, bye.