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Episode 30 - SIMULTANEOUS REVELATION in Design (w/ Nick Pedulla)
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Did Erik copy Nick's cabinet? Did Nick copy Erik's? Did they copy each other? or did both just happen to occur simultaneous and independently? Why were their build videos so similar as well? Why does this happen? TODAY we talk with the amazing DESIGNER AND FURNITURE MAKER NICK PEDULLA on the topic of COPYING vs SIMULTANEOUS REVELATION, and set the record straight about their VERY VERY similar cabinets. We get to know Nick's thinking in terms of his approach to design, and some really interesting insights as to how he runs his business to successfully make ends meet as an artist & craftsperson.
To watch the YOUTUBE VIDEO of this episode and the irreverent & somewhat unpredictable AFTERSHOW, subscribe to our Patreon: http://patreon.com/user?u=91688467
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Transcript
Introduction to Podcast & Hosts
00:00:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hi, everyone. It's us. We're back. This is Woodworking is Bullshit, your favorite show about creativity, art, design, philosophy. You name it, we cover it.
00:00:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I'm your host, Paul Jasper, scientist by day, woodworker by night. And my favorite co-host is in the chair, Eric Curtis, fine furniture maker and content creator.
Meet Nick Padula
00:00:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, we have someone who you're going to want to hear today.
00:00:42
Yeet$
Oh, we got a banger this week, man.
00:00:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes, we have a very special guest. Eric, why don't you tell the listeners what they can expect.
00:00:52
Yeet$
ah Well, I first came to know about this gentleman because ah he makes maybe the the sexiest thumbnails this side of YouTube.
00:00:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Gentlemen.
00:01:03
Yeet$
And fun fact, when you Google Australian woodworking, he is the first hit that comes up, which I just found out like 30 seconds ago, and it made me question my career accomplishments.
00:01:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What a flex.
00:01:16
Yeet$
But the the way the way that I first started talking to him in in realize that he was a stand up guy, was because, very recently, many of you DMed me about how our two projects look damn near identical. And he, in fact, DMed me and was basically like, hey, I just saw what you're working on. And please don't think that I copied you because I've been working on this design for two years.
Simultaneous Design Revelation
00:01:46
Yeet$
And that's why I was like, all right, we we need to be friends because he seems like a stand up guy. It's the one, the only Nick Padula. How are you, Nick?
00:01:52
Nick Pedulla
I'm well, thank you very much for having me.
00:01:55
Yeet$
Thank you for being on.
00:01:55
Nick Pedulla
And I'm glad that we could get to the bottom of this theft thing that's going on here.
00:02:01
Yeet$
Somebody stole from somebody and we need to find out who it was. That's fair, that's fair. So ah obviously, that's the thing we're gonna talk about.
00:02:12
Yeet$
I mean, you're you're known for so many things. um And ah i just want to I'm going to have recency bias. and And I think that this is a really interesting topic because we we worked on these two cabinets separately, obviously.
00:02:27
Yeet$
We didn't know each other until the cabinets were damn near complete, but they are so similar in so many ways.
00:02:27
Nick Pedulla
Mm hmm. Yep.
00:02:34
Yeet$
So this is not the first time this is happening in furniture. We've been building furniture for thousands upon thousands of years.
00:02:41
Nick Pedulla
Mm hmm.
00:02:42
Yeet$
The earliest result that I could find on ah the quick Google search that I did was 3,100 BCE e was the first ah furniture that we know of stone furniture, but furniture nonetheless.
00:02:52
Nick Pedulla
Okay.
Historical Context of Furniture-Making
00:02:55
Yeet$
So we know we've been making furniture for at least 5,000 years. I'm going to guess as long as we've been in the ah agricultural revolution. And this idea of what I'm going to call simultaneous revelation, this idea that two people can come up with the same idea at the same time, and one is not ceiling from the other is a thing that I've long thought. So I think the first thing that I want to know from you, Nick is, do you believe in this idea of simultaneous revolution revelation? Or do you think that I stole from you?
00:03:30
Nick Pedulla
Well, I like to joke around about the fact that you stole from me, but you didn't. And I think I never really considered this phenomenon, I suppose.
00:03:41
Nick Pedulla
until obviously seeing that we're building the same thing, essentially. But that's actually not what surprises me. It's the fact that, okay, yes, the design looks fairly similar, but then it's also the fact that we've both chosen this veneer that looks fairly similar.
00:03:55
Yeet$
Hmm. Hmm.
00:03:58
Nick Pedulla
I'm like, oh shit, okay, that's that's quite you know quite out there. All right, fair enough. I can handle that and I can probably pick why that's happened, but what I can't wrap my head around is the fact that on the same day we release a video about the same topic for the same cabinet using very similar veneer.
00:04:19
Nick Pedulla
I feel like we've just been hit like four times with this thing.
00:04:19
Yeet$
Dude, even the thumbnail, even the thumbnails, like we both had the word fake in the thumbnail about the video that we made, which was about the the use of veneer and how veneer is not a bad thing in front to back.
00:04:27
Nick Pedulla
Yes. Yeah.
00:04:35
Nick Pedulla
Yeah.
00:04:35
Yeet$
it's It's just stupid how similar the entire thing was.
00:04:38
Nick Pedulla
It is, and I've been trying to kind of like wrap my head around this and how it could happen. And I do think there are some, ah maybe some things that have like been set in place.
00:04:43
Yeet$
No.
00:04:49
Nick Pedulla
Like if you're going to do a video about veneer. as a YouTuber, we know that you kind of have to put a story around it. It's no longer just about building a piece. You have to have something to talk about while you're doing that.
00:05:02
Nick Pedulla
So it only seems um fitting that when talking about Veneer, you talk about people's perceptions of it being fake or not real wood, right?
00:05:12
Nick Pedulla
So I can see how we came to that conclusion, but still same day, same thumbnail.
00:05:14
Yeet$
right
00:05:19
Yeet$
It was literally like 12 hours apart
00:05:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Same day. I didn't
Convergent Evolution in Design
00:05:22
Yeet$
that we put them out.
00:05:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
know that.
00:05:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I didn't know that part. Oh, wow.
00:05:22
Yeet$
Yeah, yeah.
00:05:24
Yeet$
It was really like, I think your DM to me was something like, all right, this is just getting awkward now.
00:05:30
Nick Pedulla
Yeah.
00:05:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Whose video dropped first?
00:05:35
Yeet$
I beat him. I beat him by 12 hours.
00:05:36
Nick Pedulla
Eric's did. Yes.
00:05:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Did you do that to like, throw him off the scent that you copied from him?
00:05:38
Nick Pedulla
Yes.
00:05:38
Yeet$
Yeah.
00:05:44
Yeet$
Just trying to to keep him on his toes. No, but so I don't know this. I have long been of the opinion that there's nothing new under the sun, right?
00:05:56
Nick Pedulla
Mm.
00:05:56
Yeet$
Like there's no, again, we've been building furniture for thousands upon thousands of years. And my favorite example of like how you're never going to make a new or original design.
00:06:09
Yeet$
was when I was in school, I think I've told this story on the pod before, but when I was in school, uh, my teacher was a Welshman named Allen Lewis and he's, I mean, he's been building furniture for 40, 50 years. And he spent his entire career trying to figure out.
00:06:27
Yeet$
like an original design, like the thing that nobody's ever made before. And he was like, I finally did it. Like, this is the thing. It's beautiful. It's perfect. It's, I've never seen it anywhere before. He finishes it. He delivers it to the client's house. And he was like, two months later, I opened Find Woodworking and there's a piece from like 1787 and I'll be fucked if it's not exactly the same goddamn piece. So like, there's just, there's just no way around it, you know?
00:06:54
Yeet$
Um, so in this, this is a thing that happens in, in science and then, you know, engineering as well. There's this principle of multiple discovery.
00:07:04
Nick Pedulla
Hmm.
00:07:05
Yeet$
Uh, like calculus was discovered by two gentlemen at the same time, Isaac Newton, obviously being one, and then a guy named Godfried Leibniz, uh, was also a German, a gentleman who discovered calculus basically around the same time.
00:07:07
Nick Pedulla
Hmm.
00:07:11
Nick Pedulla
Hmm.
00:07:19
Yeet$
There were two folks, Darwin being one, Alfred Wallace being another, who advanced theories of evolution independently, and then a bunch of of inventions. The crossbow was the one that stuck out to me as being invented simultaneous or or multiple times in different regions of the world. So you can, this is the thing, people have ideas of of how to make things better, how to push themselves as furniture makers in our case. So what I wanna know, Nick,
00:07:48
Yeet$
is ah we can start by breaking down kind
Nick's Design Process
00:07:51
Yeet$
of the similarities in our cabinets, just so for the folks who haven't seen it.
00:07:53
Nick Pedulla
Mm hmm.
00:07:55
Yeet$
But what I really want to know is how you got the to the design that you ultimately landed on.
00:07:55
Nick Pedulla
Yep.
00:08:02
Yeet$
Because you said like you'd been sitting on that for about two years, yeah?
00:08:02
Nick Pedulla
Mhm. Yeah, so it's a bit of a story to it. I mean, about two to three years ago, I had a client come to me asking for some drawers. This design was actually a chest of drawers initially. It was actually quite a bit larger, um but still had the same shape and the same form and the same look of the doors and everything.
00:08:26
Nick Pedulla
So I would have to actually go and look over her brief, whether or not she had like a split door sort of design or whether or not this was just one of my things that I thought was cool because whatever I was looking at at the time, I thought it was great.
00:08:37
Yeet$
Huh. Hmm.
00:08:41
Nick Pedulla
But basically she loved the design. It was originally going to be out of walnuts and still with the copper leaf. ah But then unfortunately, just due to some circumstances, she had to end up pulling out because, yeah, whatever happened, which is fine. That's absolutely fine. So I was sitting on this design for a while. And in the meantime, I had built another poplar burl cabinet.
00:09:10
Nick Pedulla
ah probably, I don't know, two years ago or something like that, um that had the rounded ends and just straight doors to it, very similar to the one that I recently built. So I actually had a new client come by and saying, I want you to build this. And just the way that I've run my business is I don't build the same thing twice. So whenever I have a client, and this is essentially how every inquiry goes, a client will inquire about a piece that's on my website.
00:09:44
Nick Pedulla
So for instance, this was the Bell cabinet. And my response is always, this is a one-off piece. There's only one of these that I have built in the world. And I would love to design something similar, but specifically for you. And then we start the design process. um So that's exactly what happened here. Normally I do an upfront design package where I charge for multiple designs upfront. And that's a bit of a process that the client goes along with me.
00:10:14
Nick Pedulla
But in this scenario, I just said, look, I've got a bit of a crazy one. Why don't you come into the shop and check it out? She came into the workshop, saw the design and said, yes. So that was essentially it.
00:10:25
Nick Pedulla
Now I did redesign it a little bit more to her specs. So like I initially said, it was a chest of drawers. So I took that design and made it into the cabinet that you now see.
00:10:36
Yeet$
Mm.
00:10:37
Nick Pedulla
Yeah.
00:10:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah Just a small aside I would love to ask so many questions about why you only make things once because I'm very similar I tend to be that way and so is Eric, but we're gonna leave that for the after show Alright, so that's the topic of our after show.
00:10:51
Yeet$
That's a tease. if you If you guys want to be there for that conversation, join the Patreon baby.
00:10:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes Yes, we're gonna dive into like the the mental ideology behind that that idea or economic ideology behind that idea But anyway, please continue Eric
00:10:53
Nick Pedulla
All right. Mm hmm.
00:11:04
Yeet$
Mm. Well, so what I want to know primarily off that story is it sounds like despite your massive success on YouTube that you consider yourself a woodworker and ah a small business owner first than a YouTube or second.
Woodworker Identity vs. YouTube Success
00:11:22
Yeet$
Is that correct?
00:11:23
Nick Pedulla
Yeah, I think strangely enough, I don't even really consider myself a YouTuber, which is weird because that is actually my primary business now, I guess.
00:11:28
Yeet$
Interesting.
00:11:32
Nick Pedulla
Well, Patreon is actually my primary business, but ah YouTube is sort of the driving force behind that.
00:11:34
Yeet$
Yeah.
00:11:38
Yeet$
Sure, sure.
00:11:39
Nick Pedulla
Yeah.
00:11:39
Yeet$
So you don't, that's an interesting.
00:11:43
Nick Pedulla
But ah I've been doing this now for 20 years. I've been in the industry for 20 years and then woodworking as a kid, like another 10 years on top of that.
00:11:49
Yeet$
Hmm.
00:11:55
Nick Pedulla
I've always considered myself a furniture maker. Oh, I don't know. Part of me like being a YouTuber is great, but man, I'm nearly 40.
00:12:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mm hmm.
00:12:04
Nick Pedulla
It sounds weird to be saying I'm a YouTuber when I'm nearly 40.
00:12:06
Yeet$
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, a part part of the reason I ask is because I i do the same thing.
00:12:09
Nick Pedulla
I don't know.
00:12:12
Yeet$
Like i I always put woodworker and YouTuber or woodworker and you know, like YouTuber is always down the list and and I feel like for me, and I don't want to come off self-righteous, but like that's, it's an integrity thing because I feel like if I focus on the YouTube.
00:12:16
Nick Pedulla
Hmm. Yeah.
00:12:32
Yeet$
aspect of the business, even though that is the financial driver of the business, then the focus becomes like, how do I hit the big one? How do I hit the home run? Like how do I get the million views? And then the, the quality of the video starts to shift into not, I don't want to make it better or worse, but it starts to shift into, um, you know, like top 10 videos always do well.
00:12:52
Nick Pedulla
Yes.
00:12:53
Yeet$
So like, these are the best 10 clamps that you can buy.
00:12:56
Nick Pedulla
Yeah.
00:12:56
Yeet$
And then like now nobody's getting real value from that.
00:13:00
Nick Pedulla
Yeah. And I feel like this could be a whole discussion in itself as well, but being motivated by what's. Popular rather than what you want to do creatively.
00:13:08
Yeet$
Mmm.
00:13:10
Nick Pedulla
I've always known that that is a terrible path for me to go down anyway. um Everything that I do in my business is based off what I enjoy and what I think can be better and how I can be better.
00:13:26
Nick Pedulla
So every single choice that I've made in my business has been that.
00:13:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Rick Rubin.
00:13:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Rick Rubin would agree with you, Nick.
00:13:30
Nick Pedulla
Yeah. yeah
00:13:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, he he said, don't try to make the hit.
00:13:33
Nick Pedulla
Maybe I should grow my beard.
00:13:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, you just got to grow a beard.
00:13:36
Yeet$
yeah
00:13:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. ah but you should chase what interests to you as opposed to trying to hit it out of the park because in one case you're being authentic to yourself and that passion that authenticity will breathe into your pieces and will be immediately obvious to an audience and they will feed off that and want a piece of that as opposed to in essence pandering to what would you think the crowd wants which is fickle and poorly defined and does not excite them as much as they might think so
00:13:45
Nick Pedulla
yes
00:14:07
Nick Pedulla
Yes. No, and I guess it also depends on what the person wants out of their career, too. Maybe that's what you want to do. Because if you want to do what I do and what we do and follow the thing that we love.
Sustainability in Creative Work
00:14:20
Nick Pedulla
That's 10Xing everything. Like it's so much harder to kind of continue to reinvent yourself.
00:14:27
Yeet$
But don't you think it's also, an now we're just, now we're just patting ourselves on the back, but don't you think it's also more sustainable ah to do that in the longterm?
00:14:36
Nick Pedulla
Sure.
00:14:36
Nick Pedulla
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
00:14:36
Yeet$
Because like, you know, trends come and go, popularity comes and goes, but at the end of the day, what you have is the ability for a client to look at your body of work and come to you and they say they want to pay you to make this thing that's on your website.
00:14:49
Yeet$
And you go, no, no, no, hold my beer. I'm going to make this thing instead. And you're going to like it more. And like, that's, that's.
00:14:55
Nick Pedulla
I don't quite put it that way, but yes, yes.
00:14:56
Yeet$
yeah Sure, sure. That's not what you say to the client. But in effect, that's what's happening, you know? um and And so that gives you opposites and it gives you get greater creative freedom.
00:15:04
Nick Pedulla
yes
00:15:10
Nick Pedulla
Yes, but it also just makes sense from a business standpoint and the fact that You're now building, you're spending your time because it takes a long time to build a piece of furniture.
00:15:20
Nick Pedulla
To me, what's the point of now spending the next month building something that I've already built that's not going to progress my business any further. Okay. If I can now take this new design, dedicate myself to this new design, take photos, which is one of the most important things to do as any one that makes a product.
00:15:28
Yeet$
Yeah.
00:15:38
Yeet$
Yeah. Your photos are so fucking good, man.
00:15:40
Nick Pedulla
Thank you.
00:15:40
Yeet$
It like, I'm not, I'm not going to lie. Sorry. I didn't mean to cut you off, but I do want to just say that, uh, as we have been talking about, you know, the, the cabinets being the same and the videos being the same, um, obviously your thumbnails are phenomenal.
00:15:54
Yeet$
The photos of your work on your website are phenomenal. And then I watched literally the first 90 seconds of the video. And I was like, God damn, his video is so much better than mine.
00:16:05
Nick Pedulla
I appreciate that. But I also feel like your video was way more in depth and way more educational than mine could ever be.
00:16:14
Yeet$
Well, that's because it's not it's not good enough to hold people's attention just based on the visuals.
00:16:19
Nick Pedulla
No.
00:16:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah
00:16:23
Yeet$
I gotta keep bringing them back, just be like, here's the things I know.
00:16:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right, I have two questions for both of you now. I've been listening and and thinking about your cabinets and simultaneous revelation. So ah Nick, I would like to just follow up to your last point. You seem to instinctively know how important a photo was. So please, like just and then let me tell you the second question because you can transition right into that. ah So tell us a bit about how you learned that about but like how the photograph like, where does that mentality come from? Where did you learn that? How did you know that secondarily?
00:16:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
When I think about your two cabinets, the thing that sticks out the most, I mean, of course they're veneered and the veneers are similar, but the thing that sticks out the most is that sort of opening zipper motif up the front. ah Can both of you talk about where you think that came from and why you did that and where that, you know, okay.
00:17:18
Nick Pedulla
Yeah, okay, so the photo side of things. um So I started my business in 2016. I had no idea where the on button on a camera was. ah I've never taken photos before.
00:17:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wow.
00:17:30
Nick Pedulla
But I always knew that I needed to eventually learn how to do that.
00:17:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:17:35
Nick Pedulla
ah Particularly, I worked for a business for about five years. I was a manager there ah for a custom furniture business. And we were building great things, but the only photo that was really produced from it was a shitty old iPhone photo, poor lighting.
00:17:52
Yeet$
Mmm.
00:17:54
Nick Pedulla
It did not portray the beauty of that piece whatsoever. And
Photography in Woodworking
00:17:59
Nick Pedulla
everything that I was making was just like, to me, it seemed like a bit of a waste because no one's ever going to get to see how great it is.
00:18:09
Nick Pedulla
And all the other makers that were there as well. their work is just going kind of unnoticed. And I felt like they were too good of makers to let that happen. So I always knew that, all right, when I started business, I'm going to have to learn how to do this.
00:18:21
Nick Pedulla
I guess for the first year, I was procrastinating a little bit on that and then realized how difficult it is to run a custom furniture business and that you don't have time to bloody sit down and relax, let alone learn how to use a camera. So then I looked into what it's going to cost to have a professional to take photos of my work. And at that point in time, there's no way that I could afford that, particularly for the fact that I was building one piece per month.
00:18:50
Nick Pedulla
Like, no way. I wasn't making enough money back then.
00:18:51
Yeet$
Yeah.
00:18:53
Nick Pedulla
So I just started learning and, uh, probably the first six months I was still scratching my head. What the hell am I doing? I'm looking at all these videos and they're telling me things and it's, I just can't understand it.
00:19:09
Nick Pedulla
Like I'm a bit of a slow learner in that regard. Like what shutter speed, what the hell is that? I don't know what you're talking about. Um, so I watched like every YouTube video. under the sun about photography.
00:19:21
Nick Pedulla
And then I actually started paying for online courses. And what I learnt in one day of the online course is more than I learnt on like six months or a year of stuff on YouTube.
00:19:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wow.
00:19:37
Yeet$
That's amazing.
00:19:37
Nick Pedulla
Right?
00:19:38
Nick Pedulla
Because it's a professional telling you these are the things to look for, and they're explaining it in a way, in a teacher's mentality type of a way.
00:19:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
um
00:19:44
Yeet$
Yeah.
00:19:47
Nick Pedulla
And that's actually what gave me the idea eventually for Patreon, that quality information is can is usually behind a paywall, I feel like.
00:19:51
Yeet$
Hmm.
00:19:56
Yeet$
Yeah.
00:19:56
Nick Pedulla
And um so yeah, after doing that course, I made a rule, I have to take one photo a day for a year, for one full year, and take a photo and edit it for one year.
00:20:08
Yeet$
Oh, that's good.
00:20:09
Nick Pedulla
And then, yes.
00:20:10
Yeet$
I like that.
00:20:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You did?
00:20:12
Nick Pedulla
Yeah, I think I did it probably probably for more than a year.
00:20:13
Yeet$
Hmm.
00:20:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What?
00:20:17
Nick Pedulla
But whatever photo it is, whether it's a final product photo, or it's just a photo of me working on something, or whatever it is, but that is the best way to learn.
00:20:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Nick, you're so steadfast!
00:20:28
Yeet$
That's such a good, good way to do that.
00:20:28
Nick Pedulla
Yeah.
00:20:32
Yeet$
Yeah.
00:20:33
Nick Pedulla
But I'm obsessive as well.
00:20:33
Yeet$
No, I.
00:20:34
Nick Pedulla
And that can mess you around a little bit. Like that stuff, not so much these days, I'm a little bit more confident and I can understand what it takes to learn something and that things take time.
00:20:38
Yeet$
Sure.
00:20:48
Nick Pedulla
But back then I would lose sleep over that not being good now. Why aren't I good now? And yeah.
00:20:55
Yeet$
Well, isn't that a thing? Like, I feel like we we've all done that in our woodworking journeys as well, right?
00:20:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Ta hui.
00:21:01
Nick Pedulla
Sure.
00:21:01
Yeet$
In our design, journey like, you know, why the fuck can't like cutting a dovetail is so simple?
00:21:01
Nick Pedulla
Yeah.
00:21:06
Yeet$
Why can't I do it right? Or, which was far harder for me, the the realization that like, I know this piece doesn't look good, but I don't know why. Right?
00:21:16
Nick Pedulla
Hmm.
00:21:16
Yeet$
Like I know it's not well-designed, but I can't for the life of me figure out what's going on there.
00:21:21
Nick Pedulla
Yeah.
00:21:21
Yeet$
And that obsession of like, like you can really beat yourself up about it. But what I
00:21:26
Nick Pedulla
Sure.
Obsession & Craftsmanship
00:21:27
Yeet$
tell students all the time is it's just a numbers game.
00:21:30
Yeet$
Like you just, you will make a hundred ugly pieces and then the hundred and first thing will be beautiful. And you'll go, Oh shit, I figured it out.
00:21:37
Nick Pedulla
Hmm.
00:21:37
Yeet$
And then the hundred and second thing will be ugly again. And you'll go, what did I do?
00:21:41
Nick Pedulla
Yes.
00:21:41
Yeet$
And cause you know, it's nonlinear growth.
00:21:44
Nick Pedulla
But I also kind of think like you can tell people time and time again, like it'll be fine.
00:21:51
Nick Pedulla
You'll get there one day, but part of me does think it's that obsession that pushes you to get to where you really want to be.
00:21:51
Yeet$
Hmm.
00:21:55
Yeet$
Hmm.
00:22:00
Nick Pedulla
Personally, if I would have just be like, Oh, it'll happen one day, then maybe I won't take the right steps because I'm not obsessed enough to get to that point one day.
00:22:02
Yeet$
Yeah.
00:22:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:22:06
Yeet$
Yeah.
00:22:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:22:08
Yeet$
Well, that's the difference between the people who get really good at a thing and the people who are like, you know, pretty strong hobbyists sort of thing, like, yeah.
00:22:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, there's there's an obsession piece, and I don't necessarily mean it has to be unhealthy, I don't mean that per se, but you have to be committed to it enough to put in like the the first 1,000 or 10,000 hours or however many hours it is to actually become competent at the thing.
00:22:15
Nick Pedulla
Yeah. Yeah.
00:22:23
Nick Pedulla
Mm.
00:22:30
Nick Pedulla
Yes.
00:22:30
Yeet$
Yeah. All right.
00:22:31
Nick Pedulla
Yeah.
00:22:32
Yeet$
So, so getting back to the cabinet at hand, um, I want to understand a little bit more the evolution of the design or the concept.
00:22:34
Nick Pedulla
Mm hmm.
00:22:43
Yeet$
So like I usually look for like ah a philosophical idea or a concept to drive a design because that helps me, that helps limit the creative decisions that I can make.
00:22:49
Nick Pedulla
Mm hmm.
00:22:54
Yeet$
Um, but it sounds and like looking at at your website, it looks like. a client reached out, saw the cabinet that you had and you went, I'm not going to make that, but I have this other iteration of this thing that I really want to make.
00:23:07
Yeet$
And like same veneers too, it looks like. Yeah.
00:23:09
Nick Pedulla
Yes, because that's what she wanted.
00:23:10
Yeet$
Okay.
00:23:11
Nick Pedulla
She wants this exact veneer. Yeah.
00:23:13
Yeet$
Got you. So is that.
00:23:14
Nick Pedulla
Yep.
00:23:16
Yeet$
Is that a thing where like you go to the client's house or you get visuals of the interior and you try to work within the space? Like how does it, how does your design process from start to finish work?
00:23:28
Yeet$
It like paint me a picture, at least with this piece specifically.
00:23:31
Nick Pedulla
So well this one's a little bit different because it was probably the easiest sell I ever had to make, right?
00:23:35
Yeet$
Nice.
00:23:36
Nick Pedulla
um I didn't go and see her house. I just knew what the access was like. um Basically, she just approved. She saw the design, ah approved it.
00:23:45
Yeet$
Hmm.
00:23:46
Nick Pedulla
And then I think I was had like an eight month wait period or something. um so so So this all happened like February, a year ago now, February of last year, I think that she signed off on it. And I started building in October or November, but this design process was super simple, but the usual design process that I take for a client is they will contact me saying they want this particular piece. They want, let's say a record cabinet or something.
00:24:20
Nick Pedulla
What I then do is to get rid of the people that aren't serious, I describe to them my design package. okay And my design package is an upfront fee for three designs and then three iterations to one of those designs.
00:24:39
Yeet$
Hmm.
00:24:39
Nick Pedulla
okay and And the only reason why this works though is because I have a portfolio, they can see that this is a guy you can trust.
00:24:45
Yeet$
Right. Right.
00:24:47
Nick Pedulla
um So generally speaking, You can tell who is interested and who's serious because they'll go ahead with the design package.
00:24:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What percent say yes with to the design package?
00:24:58
Yeet$
Yeah.
00:24:58
Nick Pedulla
um
00:25:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Out of curiosity.
00:25:03
Nick Pedulla
ah These days, it would probably be 80%, I would say, which is pretty good.
00:25:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wow, so it's four out of five are serious.
00:25:11
Nick Pedulla
Yeah. but Let me also just say now that I, because of the YouTube thing, Patreon thing, I'm actually not really taking on too much client work anyway.
00:25:11
Yeet$
That's phenomenal.
00:25:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's great.
00:25:19
Yeet$
yeah
00:25:20
Nick Pedulla
So usually I direct them elsewhere. and ah But back to that design package. There's a bit of like psychology involved as well into understanding their design brief.
00:25:32
Yeet$
Hmm.
00:25:33
Nick Pedulla
Okay. So once I say yes to the design package, then the next step is the design brief. And this is an online form that has all the questions that I need to know. So I can now go away and come up with three different designs.
00:25:45
Nick Pedulla
But the most important question on that list is budget.
00:25:50
Yeet$
Sure.
00:25:51
Nick Pedulla
Right. And the only, one the only way. that I figured out how to get someone's budget is to talk to them either face to face or over the phone.
00:26:02
Nick Pedulla
And now you want to start listening to there ah their voice and what their voice does.
00:26:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:26:08
Nick Pedulla
Okay, so there's a thing called price bracketing.
00:26:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:26:11
Nick Pedulla
Usually when someone's talking about budget, they they don't want to be the first person to say, yeah, I want to spend 10 grand, right?
00:26:18
Yeet$
Sure.
00:26:19
Nick Pedulla
They want to see what you're going to say because they could possibly get it for cheaper.
00:26:20
Yeet$
Right.
00:26:22
Nick Pedulla
So what I usually do is when talking about budget, I will say a piece like this could be anywhere from $20,000 and you put up a high number, give it a little bit of a pause and then bring a low number.
00:26:36
Nick Pedulla
And that low number is, you know exactly what you can spend or what you can build that piece for.
00:26:40
Yeet$
Hmm.
00:26:41
Nick Pedulla
So let's say this piece can be built for $8,000. Your next low number will be $8,000. and then you kind of work from there, okay? Now, if they say no to the $8,000, well, okay, then let's both just go on our merry way, no problem, we're not the right fit for each other.
00:26:58
Yeet$
Yeah.
00:27:00
Nick Pedulla
But if they say, okay, well, I was thinking more like this, or more like that, now you have a budget to work on. So let's approve the design package. They pay the upfront fee.
00:27:11
Nick Pedulla
Now I can go and design something based on their budget because this design package does not work unless you have a budget because you don't want to go and design something for $20,000 and their budget was five grand.
00:27:20
Yeet$
Right.
00:27:25
Yeet$
Yes, no, that would be a really stupid business move that nobody should definitely do ever.
00:27:26
Nick Pedulla
You know what I mean? Yes.
00:27:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah Nick, in terms of the design, and so this is really interesting, everything you said. I hadn't anticipated that we were going to touch on this, and I found it fascinating what you just said. um But in terms of the like the visual design, and let's take this cabinet as an example, how did you come up with sort of the opening zipper motif?
00:27:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Where did that come from? And the curved you know ah copper leaf?
00:27:54
Nick Pedulla
Yes.
00:27:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
and
00:27:57
Nick Pedulla
So from memory, like I said, this was a while ago that I designed it, but I think it was because I ah like finger pulls on drawers.
00:28:07
Nick Pedulla
Like I said, this was gonna be a chest of drawers.
00:28:09
Yeet$
Mmm.
00:28:10
Nick Pedulla
But I was kind of over the usual finger pull design. So I thought, how cool would it be to incorporate the design of the cabinet into the finger pulls?
00:28:21
Nick Pedulla
So the finger pull would actually be on that curvature where the copper leaf is.
00:28:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:28:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I see.
00:28:28
Nick Pedulla
And that's how you open the door for this cabinet. It's still the same kind of concept.
00:28:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So uniting a visual design element with a functional design.
00:28:35
Nick Pedulla
Yes.
00:28:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I see.
00:28:36
Nick Pedulla
Yes. So I'm assuming that's where it stemmed from.
00:28:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric. Okay. Yeah.
00:28:40
Nick Pedulla
Yep.
00:28:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So Eric, how about you?
00:28:40
Nick Pedulla
Sorry.
00:28:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Where did you get this idea for the sort of the opening zipper motif?
00:28:43
Yeet$
it as It's interesting. um I'm not 100% sure. I can say that so like, again, coming back to concept driving a lot of the design.
00:28:56
Yeet$
um I, this piece was going down to Florida and you know, this is a new place that these clients just moved into. So I wanted it to have like this. I wanted some nod to the, to the space, to the feeling of the region, right?
Design Inspiration & Functionality
00:29:12
Yeet$
And they live literally on the Gulf. Like it's, it's, you look out that they live on the 17th floor of a new ah building and you just look out onto the Gulf. It's beautiful. It's, it's picturesque.
00:29:23
Yeet$
And so I wanted to incorporate that visual into there somehow. And so as I was, I started searching for materials first. And I found that, that Kayla birch. And as soon as I saw that, I had that kind of that gritty, sandy texture to it, those little inclusions in there, I was like, Oh, that's the material. That's what we're rolling with. So that was the base of it. And then from there, it was trying to figure out ways to, um, not intrude upon that material so much. And I am a big believer in this this idea of drawing people into a piece of furniture.
00:30:04
Yeet$
like there should be levels of discovery when you're engaging with a piece of furniture.
00:30:06
Nick Pedulla
Hmm. Hmm.
00:30:09
Yeet$
So it's not just a pretty object and then you open it and you go, okay, it's a pretty object. And I think that's where this idea of the split doors came because once I found that that Tasmanian Blackwood, and that was beautiful too, and it balanced the Kahlo I think really well, then it was this idea of like, okay, how,
00:30:27
Yeet$
How do I get people to want to open these doors? And I had the idea to have that kind of vertical line of the book match that would running up and that would draw the eye upward.
00:30:40
Yeet$
Um, but also splitting those doors open would then allow like ah a level of depth to the front of the cabinet that you can't get out, you know, in, in any other way.
00:30:49
Nick Pedulla
Hmm.
00:30:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
different layers or tiers.
00:30:53
Yeet$
different, you're right, right, right.
00:30:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, yeah.
00:30:54
Yeet$
And so that makes you want to approach the cabinet. And then you put your hands on those laminations, which are also the poles for the doors.
00:30:58
Nick Pedulla
Hmm.
00:31:01
Yeet$
And so they have a ah mild rotation running inward. And, ah and then once you open those doors, and then you start peering around, and then you open the other door, and then you realize that that layer behind the doors is the door in and of itself.
00:31:14
Yeet$
So I think it was just that idea of kind of, like take a little peek-a-boo action going on inside. um But as soon as I had that idea, I was like, yeah, those are the poles.
00:31:24
Yeet$
Like there was never, like obviously those are the poles.
00:31:27
Nick Pedulla
Hmm. Yes. Yep.
00:31:27
Yeet$
You know, that's where your hand wants to land. So why why redirect the hand elsewhere? So it seems like we, again, like the idea of the functionality of the cabinet is similar, very similar.
00:31:39
Nick Pedulla
Hmm.
00:31:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
nick nick
00:31:41
Nick Pedulla
I feel like we're slowly becoming best friends.
00:31:44
Yeet$
yeah
00:31:47
Nick Pedulla
We think too alike, I feel like.
00:31:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, yeah, so Nick, actually, as you were listening to Eric's sort of rationale for the design, how did that, like, did you have thoughts stirring about what you did?
00:31:59
Nick Pedulla
Yeah, look, I think I am definitely a believer in being able to draw the eye to places. Okay, there was an artwork that I saw in, and where was I, like Valencia, I believe, um and went to this ah this, this would have been like back in 2010 or something.
00:32:16
Nick Pedulla
went to this museum saw this artwork and it was essentially of a figure that however the artist did it they pulled your eye around this painting and first you just see this figure then you see a halo and then you see these wings and their dark wings and then you realize oh this is like an angel of death right starts as a figure turns into this completely different thing and i was always fascinated
00:32:24
Yeet$
Hmm. Hmm.
00:32:41
Nick Pedulla
by the fact that you can control the viewer's eye, right?
00:32:43
Yeet$
Hmm.
00:32:44
Nick Pedulla
So I can completely understand where you're coming from in that regard.
00:32:44
Yeet$
Hmm.
00:32:47
Nick Pedulla
And I think my cabinet has a similar thing to that.
00:32:51
Yeet$
Oh, for sure.
00:32:52
Nick Pedulla
ah In regards to the inviting of somebody to open the door, I feel like mine doesn't really have that because of the copper leaf. It's almost something like you don't want to touch.
00:33:02
Yeet$
Hmm.
00:33:03
Nick Pedulla
I feel like it's something that your hands should stay off of.
00:33:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
too precious like a precious metal like don't and don't don't put fingerprints all over me huh huh
00:33:08
Nick Pedulla
Perhaps too precious, maybe.
00:33:10
Yeet$
Interesting.
00:33:12
Nick Pedulla
Possibly, yeah. And because it's so delicate and all of this. So i I feel like my cabinet isn't really inviting somebody in. It's more of just a thing to just stand back and go like, what the hell is that?
00:33:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah
00:33:23
Nick Pedulla
What do I do with this?
00:33:24
Yeet$
That's interesting because when, when I first saw the images, my, like, my first instinct was, Oh, those, those are probably like push latches, you know, like you can tap it and pop open.
00:33:34
Nick Pedulla
Yeah, right.
00:33:36
Yeet$
And, but, but of course I'm only seeing the image. I'm not seeing like the object in and of itself. So I'd be curious, like, do those edges roll in in a certain way to like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:33:46
Nick Pedulla
So it's chamfered back, yeah. So it's a sharp angle back to that um that copper leaf, yeah.
00:33:50
Yeet$
Yeah.
00:33:53
Yeet$
Hmm.
00:33:53
Nick Pedulla
But I do have to say, I feel like your center section that also is a door is genius. I actually really like that because it's making use of the space.
00:33:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:34:02
Nick Pedulla
Whereas the one thing that I didn't like about my design and it just had to sort of happen because of the size of the piece is that copper leaf, that cove part had to be attached to the door.
00:34:04
Yeet$
Hmm.
00:34:10
Yeet$
Hmm.
00:34:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:34:13
Nick Pedulla
That's kind of like the one thing that I didn't like.
00:34:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Ah.
00:34:16
Yeet$
Interesting.
00:34:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:34:16
Nick Pedulla
And I don't like furniture that has like a specific way to use it, but in that piece, one door had to open before the other.
00:34:20
Yeet$
Hmm.
00:34:26
Yeet$
Yeah, yeah.
00:34:26
Nick Pedulla
So it's kind of not really the the way I like to design things, but in this scenario, it just sort of had to be that way. Yeah.
00:34:33
Yeet$
Yeah, I mean, well, those are the creative limitations, right? that's And that's that's function following form, you know to an extent.
00:34:36
Nick Pedulla
Sure.
00:34:40
Nick Pedulla
Yeah. Yeah.
00:34:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So Eric, that what you just said, creative limitations, right? the What you're talking about is sort of like you and Nick had a a series of limitations or a series of must ah ah boxes to check, let's say.
00:34:55
Yeet$
Mm.
00:34:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You had to have a cabinet that did X. It had to satisfy certain criteria, right? There were certain demands of this cabinet inherently. And therefore, the pieces that evolved separately, were they similarly you know address addressed like the the functional needs. It similarly addressed the design wants and wishes of the two of you, who I think are two very design forward thinking woodworkers. Both of you are very design centric.
00:35:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And that is not something I think is all that typical in the working space. And so the sets of pressures and the people you are and your your education, your experience, led you down simultaneous paths to the similar endpoints. And as a biologist,
00:35:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
that sounds so so that that sounds like convergent evolution. That is exactly what convergent evolution is. So you may have heard the term recurrent evolution or convergent evolution and what it really means is two things or two characteristics have evolved separately but simultaneously throughout the the animal kingdom or the or the earth and there's examples of this of that abound like for example the ability to fly is one of the key convergent evolutions that i think we see so insects
00:36:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
evolved to fly. Birds evolved separately to fly.
00:36:32
Nick Pedulla
Mm hmm.
00:36:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You know, birds and insects are not closely related.
00:36:35
Nick Pedulla
Hmm.
00:36:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah And bats, all three of those are on totally separate lineages where their predecessor had nothing to do with each other. In any immediate way and through environmental pressures and fitness to that environment they evolved the ability to fly the body shape is another one body shape of like fish and dolphins marine mammals and fish
00:36:59
Nick Pedulla
Hmm.
Evolution & Environmental Influence
00:37:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
separately evolved to minimize drag.
00:37:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
through water environments so they could swim faster and get the food and survive. So the environmental pressures evolve the body shape and and likewise, eyes have evolved, ah mammals evolved eyes that can sense light and off also cephalopods like squid and octopus.
00:37:10
Nick Pedulla
Hmm.
00:37:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
evolved eyes separately from humans, like we're way, way evolutionarily removed. But what's always common in all of these stories is there was ah an environmental pressure to evolve this thing and it pushed it down that path so simultaneously and similarly.
00:37:35
Yeet$
Mmm.
00:37:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Now I'm thinking about the two of you. You had, what were your environmental pressures? I need a cabinet, okay? Number one, I need a cabinet. that's that That language or a cabinet specifies a certain size typically.
00:37:52
Nick Pedulla
Mhmm.
00:37:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I know cabinets can vary in size, I know.
00:37:53
Nick Pedulla
Mhmm.
00:37:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But in general, like a big, you know, a cabinet that can hold enough stuff and looks good in a home and pleases the human eye, and we know humans have very specific ideas of preference, right?
00:37:57
Nick Pedulla
Mhmm.
00:38:06
Yeet$
Different from octopus eyes, now I know.
00:38:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. different from o So the two of you, your environmental pressures were create a cabinet.
00:38:09
Yeet$
Yeah.
00:38:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That says something about the size and the shape. And you have a certain client base who likes your aesthetic and wants a design centric design forward thing to look like a piece of art in their house, which specifies certain things.
00:38:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And the two of you We're like, yeah, I really dig in like you got to draw your eye in and I'm looking for new ways to come up with pulls and like, like I want to chat like so much of this is like convergent evolution, there were pressures and this cabinet satisfied those pressures that you were under kind of independently, but also very similarly, it's it this is a great metaphor, I think.
00:38:41
Nick Pedulla
Hmm.
00:38:50
Yeet$
So are you saying we just evolved woodworking? Is that...
00:38:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, Eric, all I can say is this cabinet evolved to be very similar to the two of you. And I'm sure, I bet we can find at least, um I'm guessing 20 to 50 other cabinets that have very similar design to these two, if we if we could see the whole landscape.
00:39:01
Yeet$
they
00:39:08
Nick Pedulla
Sure.
00:39:09
Yeet$
oh sure
00:39:09
Nick Pedulla
Sure. Well, one idea potentially around the burl or me using the burl and the similar veneer that you used, um I mean, it's just a popular thing.
00:39:21
Nick Pedulla
It seems to be a bit of a modern look in a certain way. And the only reason why I know this is because of that other cabinet that I was telling you about before that I built, the amount of people, not necessarily inquiries, but the amount of people that comment on the photo of that piece, like that is such beautiful wood.
00:39:33
Yeet$
Oh, sure.
00:39:41
Nick Pedulla
for whatever reason, that is drawing people's attention more so than what walnuts might do. It's a unique thing.
00:39:41
Yeet$
Yeah.
00:39:49
Yeet$
Yeah.
00:39:50
Nick Pedulla
So I can completely understand where um where that can make its way into your viewpoints. And it's probably not a coincidence that, Eric, that's how,
00:40:05
Nick Pedulla
what you might've seen or subconsciously, you might've seen that and why someone else on a completely different area of the world has done the same sort of thing. It seems to be yeah sorry.
00:40:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
so So...
00:40:14
Nick Pedulla
Yeah. Okay.
00:40:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So Nick, are you saying like the the personal preference of the population at large wanting contemporary designing influenced your choice of veneer, which also, eight you can you can see that preference of the customer as an environmental pressure, right?
00:40:22
Yeet$
Hmm.
00:40:29
Nick Pedulla
Hmm.
00:40:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Back in the 1700s, there were environmental pressures to come up with William and Mary period and Queen Anne and Chippendale aesthetic, right?
00:40:32
Nick Pedulla
Definitely. Yeah.
00:40:39
Nick Pedulla
Well, I guess there's a reason why so much furniture is made from white oak now as well.
00:40:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And everything looked Chippendale in England.
00:40:46
Nick Pedulla
It's got that look and that is an experience that everybody is going through and that everybody wants because it gives a specific look to their home.
00:40:46
Yeet$
Yeah.
00:40:55
Nick Pedulla
And then who knows, maybe because there is so much white oak around, when someone sees something like a burl veneer, they're like, oh, I wanted that. That is different.
00:41:06
Nick Pedulla
They don't necessarily have the education about woods that we have because they're not woodworkers. They they not don't need to have that kind of education.
00:41:16
Yeet$
They just see it's different. Yeah.
00:41:18
Nick Pedulla
They just say it's different and they love it. And I want a piece out of that.
00:41:20
Yeet$
Yeah.
00:41:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So a follow-up question to that, then.
00:41:22
Nick Pedulla
Yeah.
00:41:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah if If the the changing tastes of the customer, think of it as an environmental pressure to evolve, right? If if those changing tastes of the customer, right, ah you know, they change every, what, 10 to 20, maybe to every 20 years, or, you know, as as things move.
00:41:37
Nick Pedulla
Sure.
00:41:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Do you feel as though these pieces are timeless? Still?
00:41:44
Nick Pedulla
um Well, I mean, I feel like that comes down to, yeah, the design itself. um I would say like a lot of my pieces are kind of already like a style that's already out there, right? It's like either like a retro kind of a style or whatever.
00:42:01
Nick Pedulla
That went out of fashion at some point, and now it's come back in fashion, and no doubt, 10 years, someone's gonna look at my piece and go, what the hell is that?
00:42:09
Yeet$
Yep.
00:42:09
Nick Pedulla
That's gross. And then in another 20 years, they might be like, oh, that's amazing.
00:42:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
next Nick, do you feel like you have a style, Nick?
00:42:13
Nick Pedulla
You just don't know, everything sort of changes.
00:42:18
Nick Pedulla
No.
00:42:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Do you feel in your gut that I know my style?
00:42:23
Nick Pedulla
No.
00:42:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, I agree.
00:42:24
Nick Pedulla
I ah don't intentionally feel like I have one, but someone else might look at my work and be like, yeah, but
00:42:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No, I agree wholeheartedly. Like people say, Paul, when you post something, I know it's yours. You have such a distinct style and I don't see it.
00:42:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I can't see it. I don't know if I'm too close to the work or what.
00:42:43
Yeet$
I don't, I don't think you are. I think that's just the nature of like people who constantly try to find new stimuli and do new things. And like, look, your, your hand only moves a certain way, right? Like if you're a vocalist, you can only, you only have so much of a range, but you can play in different genres.
00:43:00
Nick Pedulla
Mmm.
00:43:01
Yeet$
And I think trying to incorporate these different elements, these visual elements allows us to reinterpret our work differently.
00:43:05
Nick Pedulla
Mm-hmm.
00:43:07
Yeet$
But like, I've had the same experience. One of my mentors, his name was Rob Hare. And he shot me an email one day because he's a million years old, ah doesn't text. And he he was like, Hey, I was flipping through whatever he said, fine woodworking or something.
00:43:22
Yeet$
I don't remember where he saw it. And he was like, I saw this piece. And I was like, oh, that's an Eric Curtis piece. And sure enough, it was you. And it like the message that he was saying it was a very sweet message.
00:43:33
Yeet$
He was like, you found your voice like you have an identifiable style.
00:43:35
Nick Pedulla
Mm. Mm.
00:43:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Huh?
00:43:37
Yeet$
And I was like, but you didn't tell me what the fuck the style was. Like, I don't know what it was that you saw that was identifiable as a thing that I made.
00:43:44
Nick Pedulla
But the style might not actually be what it looks like. It's what we're all like used to. It's this particular, so the style might actually be the thought process behind it.
00:43:50
Yeet$
Hmm.
00:43:53
Nick Pedulla
Okay. It's the actual creator behind it.
00:43:54
Yeet$
Hmm.
00:43:56
Nick Pedulla
Like you hear this stuff in music all the time. Like if you listen to a Radiohead albums or something, each album is so different, but you know, it's Radiohead and it's because it's these artists that are creating this thing.
00:44:01
Yeet$
Yeah. Yep.
00:44:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:44:09
Nick Pedulla
And that could be the same that we're all experiencing in our furniture.
00:44:13
Yeet$
Yeah, I think that's, that's a great analogy.
00:44:14
Nick Pedulla
Your notes.
00:44:15
Yeet$
Like ah another musician who I've heard say similar things was Billy Joel.
00:44:18
Nick Pedulla
Hmm.
00:44:19
Yeet$
Like he was like, people say I have a sound and I have no idea what my sound is. And it's like, bitch, you stop lying. You know what your sound is. Like we can all identify a Billy Joel song very quickly.
00:44:28
Nick Pedulla
Hmm.
00:44:29
Yeet$
He was like, I don't, I just try to write music as though other people are singing it. And then it ends up sounding the way it sounds because I'm the one who's singing it.
00:44:38
Nick Pedulla
Yes. Yeah.
00:44:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
so So I guess my one of the the last questions I have is, you know this has been a very sort of interesting look at how convergent simultaneous or evolution or simultaneous reveal can happen, where two artists you know just happen to be at a similar place in their artistic development or they're just their design interests or and the pressures are such that they they make the same thing at the same time for different people.
00:45:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Um, this is, I guess like the best case scenario, right? Like truly independent things look very similar.
00:45:14
Nick Pedulla
Hmm.
00:45:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
A lot of the time though, it's not so independent. It's like, I saw some ones and I'm going to riff off it. And whether that's subconscious or not, whether they'll admit it or not, it brings up the topic of copying, which actually was the very first episode of this podcast.
00:45:32
Yeet$
Oh,
00:45:32
Nick Pedulla
Hmm.
Views on Copying in Design
00:45:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Episode one was on copying. And the reason we did that.
00:45:35
Nick Pedulla
Yeah, I did actually go back and listen to that one recently after talking to you.
00:45:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
because it's kit right Because it's so important.
00:45:38
Yeet$
ah yeah.
00:45:39
Nick Pedulla
Yeah.
00:45:41
Yeet$
Yeah.
00:45:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah you know how do we ah So Nick, what's your view on you know copying? is copying at least not Is copying part of the learning and artistic dialect for yourself? And then you move away from that? How do you visual out? How do you cogitate about copying?
00:45:58
Nick Pedulla
So I think my view on copying has shifted pretty drastically, specifically since doing YouTube. So my viewpoint on copying was very much that of a business owner, like how dare anyone build what I've built.
00:46:14
Nick Pedulla
This is a one piece, one off piece, and it should only be one and whatever this sort of gatekeeping shitty mentality since
00:46:17
Yeet$
Hmm.
00:46:24
Nick Pedulla
doing YouTube, and particularly Patreon, I constantly get photos of woodworkers around the world building one of my pieces and saying how much they learned from that. And the thing is, it is for them, and they're actually using it as an exercise to better their skill, and there is no better feeling in the world than that. To know that you have this skill set, you've put it out there in somebody else's learning,
00:46:53
Nick Pedulla
Absolutely love that. Where I have an issue, and this has happened to me numerous times now, is when someone is profiting off of that. So they they have a business and they are building my piece to then sell to a client.
00:47:07
Yeet$
Hmm. Hmm.
00:47:09
Nick Pedulla
That is where I have an issue and I have actually reached out to the people that I've seen do this and they have admitted that it was an inspiring thing and they wanted to make it for this client and they say, you know, they they apologize and they didn't realize and that's fine. Okay, like if it's a accidental thing, all right.
00:47:31
Nick Pedulla
That's okay. But I do feel like in a professional world, if you're making money, you're not going to develop a reputation for yourself. Or you're not going to develop a good reputation if you're going around copying somebody else's work. Because there is a lot of time and effort that goes into the design and getting the sizing and the proportion right.
00:47:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:47:51
Nick Pedulla
And the other thing that I kind of can't escape is until you know this design, until say I thought up this ah design or you guys thought it up, it didn't exist anywhere.
00:48:03
Yeet$
Mmm.
00:48:05
Nick Pedulla
You know, ah ideas might have. And in our case, if I didn't build my bell cabinet, clearly one would have existed. But generally speaking, like if you come up with an idea and then you build it, that thing did not exist until you built it. And then for somebody else to come along and profit off of that, I have a bit of an issue with that, I think.
00:48:27
Yeet$
So I think that's an absolutely fair and reasonable stance to take. My question would be, as somebody who doesn't build the same thing twice, what's the harm in somebody else building it?
00:48:44
Nick Pedulla
Uh, it is, I guess coming down the idea point of it as well.
00:48:48
Yeet$
Hmm.
00:48:48
Nick Pedulla
Like that's my, um, what's the right word for that? That is my personality coming through.
00:48:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
intellectual property. Oh, I was gonna say it's your intellectual property for at least while you're alive, right?
00:48:56
Nick Pedulla
Yeah, sure. You can say that.
00:48:57
Yeet$
yeah Yeah.
00:48:59
Nick Pedulla
Definitely. Of course.
00:49:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It won't be once you're 60 years dead, but
00:49:01
Nick Pedulla
Of course. Yeah, but I think it's um more the fact that that's my idea that I sort of came up with, I suppose, not that I'm trying to gatekeep here or anything like that.
00:49:14
Nick Pedulla
um I'm sure I'm sure this opinion will change again in the future.
00:49:15
Yeet$
No, sure.
00:49:15
Yeet$
Sure. i
00:49:19
Nick Pedulla
But my thing is always like if you want to be good at whatever craft you're doing, add your own personality into it. It's great if you get inspired by a piece, but change it and make it yours.
00:49:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:49:27
Yeet$
yeah and and i'm Yeah, I'm with you 100%. I think there is a real integrity issues to be had there. I'm thinking just from the business, like financial aspects of it. so like i I really don't give a shit if people copy a thing that I make, um partially because I've learned that I can make myself infinitely angry about it and I'm never gonna stop it.
00:49:55
Yeet$
So there's no like there's no benefit to me as it as a human being to just like put my emotions in the ditch over somebody copying me.
00:49:56
Nick Pedulla
Yeah.
00:50:04
Nick Pedulla
yep
00:50:04
Yeet$
um But also the reality is like you can, you can paint something Picasso already painted, but like you're not going to make Picasso money.
00:50:17
Yeet$
You know, this is like, this is the stairway to heaven argument, right?
00:50:19
Nick Pedulla
Hmm.
00:50:19
Yeet$
Like anybody can play stairway to heaven. Like I could have written that. Yeah, but, but you didn't. And like, there's a, there's a lot of questions as to whether Jimmy Page wrote it too.
00:50:24
Nick Pedulla
Yes. Yes.
00:50:27
Yeet$
And that's a fair argument to make, but, but, but the point is that the point
00:50:28
Nick Pedulla
Let's not get into that. Let's not get into that.
00:50:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well,
00:50:30
Nick Pedulla
That was so soul destroying when I.
00:50:34
Yeet$
The point is is like, the point is, ah you know, you you can you can make yourself endlessly infuriated, especially in the age of the internet about people copying you.
00:50:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
but so this
00:50:44
Nick Pedulla
Yes.
00:50:47
Yeet$
And like, I'm 100% with you if somebody is making it for their own personal edification and and the learning.
00:50:52
Nick Pedulla
Hmm.
00:50:53
Yeet$
copy 100% copy me.
00:50:54
Nick Pedulla
Yeah, definitely.
00:50:56
Yeet$
My thing with people who are trying to be professional woodworkers or are professional woodworkers is just like change 10%.
00:51:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's all this stuff.
00:51:05
Nick Pedulla
Hmm.
00:51:05
Yeet$
You know, like if if it is if you literally download my plans and make it and sell it, that's a dick move. I'm not gonna lose sleep over it because I have bigger things to do.
00:51:12
Nick Pedulla
Yes.
00:51:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, here.
00:51:13
Nick Pedulla
Yeah, yeah, yeah. True.
00:51:15
Nick Pedulla
True. Hmm.
00:51:15
Yeet$
But like it's a dick move.
00:51:16
Yeet$
But if you if you change 10% like for example, if somebody saw my cabinet, this is a theoretical world in which you didn't build your cabinet. If somebody saw my cabinet, and rounded the corners of like the front of the cabinet like you did, I'd be like, that's a cool iteration.
00:51:32
Yeet$
Go for it, dog.
00:51:32
Nick Pedulla
Yeah, for sure.
00:51:33
Yeet$
You know, and it's just it's it's just a little bit different.
00:51:33
Nick Pedulla
For sure. Yeah.
00:51:37
Yeet$
You know, or change the base do something that's a little different.
00:51:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hey, quick.
00:51:39
Nick Pedulla
that's That's the thing. Sorry, go.
00:51:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I wanna, hold on, hold on, hold on.
00:51:41
Nick Pedulla
Go.
00:51:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So here's the thing, I keep having this thought while I listen, because you guys are fairly well aligned on your answers, right? I keep thinking the thing, like if someone copies something exactly off me and sells it, fine, okay, no problem.
00:51:54
Yeet$
Hmm.
00:51:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You made a little money, but first of all, there's there's two there's two upshots to that, okay? Number one, you're not gonna have my customer base. You will not suddenly steal my customers from me because they're my customers for a much larger reason than one piece, right?
00:52:07
Yeet$
Right, right.
00:52:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's a whole body of work. it's it's It's you as a person, it's you as an artist, it's how you think it's a designer. That's why they're your customers. It's not you made one piece and suddenly you're so first of all The customer base is not at risk second of all They only have that one piece of yours They can't have your next piece
00:52:30
Yeet$
Hmm.
00:52:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
because they're not you. They don't have the it factor, the secret sauce that is Nick Padula, that is Eric Curtis, right?
00:52:39
Yeet$
I that's.
00:52:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
They don't have that secret sauce of your design sensitivity, your design sensibility. you They can't imagine your next piece because only you can. So while while they copy, it's an N of one.
00:52:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
They can't continue to to move forward from that in a way that could be similar to you because there's only one you.
00:52:59
Nick Pedulla
Hmm.
00:53:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Go ahead, Eric.
00:53:03
Yeet$
And that that's, that's kind of the point that I was trying to get at is like this, like they can copy you, but they can't, they can't, um, they can't walk into your, your clientele and be like, Hey, I'll make this for cheaper.
00:53:15
Yeet$
Cause your clientele, our clientele. And it sounds like Nick, you're in ah the same place as I am, which is very lucky and grateful for it of like, our clients aren't going to be like, Oh, well fucking.
00:53:19
Nick Pedulla
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
00:53:28
Yeet$
Dickie John over here said he could do it for 10% cheaper than Eric. So I'm going to go with him instead.
00:53:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Take it.
00:53:33
Nick Pedulla
No. To be honest, I think it's, I think out of my view on this, the financial side of it is probably the least important part of it.
00:53:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:53:43
Nick Pedulla
I think it's more about the fact that one, okay, yes, I worked hard and coming up with that design, but also I feel like you're ripping yourself off for not trying to come up with a great design yourself.
00:53:51
Yeet$
Yeah. yeah
00:53:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, it's true.
00:53:59
Yeet$
Yeah, it's ah it's an ethical thing more than than a financial thing.
00:53:59
Nick Pedulla
um I don't know. Hmm. Yes. Yes.
00:54:03
Yeet$
Yeah.
00:54:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
<unk>s and And I do the same thing as you guys do.
00:54:03
Nick Pedulla
For sure.
00:54:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
like Anytime someone copies a piece of mine, I say, that is awesome, great, I hope you learned a lot, and I cannot wait to see what you do with it.
00:54:12
Nick Pedulla
Hmm.
00:54:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Definitely tag me or show me your next version of it.
00:54:17
Nick Pedulla
Yes.
00:54:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
because And I have seen people do stuff with my with my work that I thought was awesome. And I was like, goddamn, why did I think of that? So, it's great, it's really fun, yeah.
00:54:26
Yeet$
That's, but that's the fun part of it, right? And so, so, so on that point, Nick, I want to end this seg with a question, which I think might not have an answer, but I'm going to put you on the hot seat anyway. Where is the line between iterating and copying?
00:54:45
Nick Pedulla
Um, it's kind of like the impossible question though, right? But I, I, I do think, look, I have experienced this a little bit before where, uh, particularly with students kind of like asking permission, they've been inspired by one of my pieces and they want to use that inspiration to come up with their own.
00:54:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
way to go eric
00:54:50
Yeet$
Yeah.
00:55:05
Nick Pedulla
And then they'll send me a photo and it's exactly the same now. And that's not, I love it. Great. Cause the students.
00:55:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Way to go, Eric.
00:55:14
Nick Pedulla
like one, being inspired and two, developing more skills. But I think that word inspire might have a different meaning to some people. For me personally, when I'm inspired by somebody's design, it might be a single aspect of it that then triggers an idea and then I go off on a tangent. I think for other people, the word inspire just means seeing this piece has inspired me to get into my shop and build it. um So look, whether or not There's an issue with it.
00:55:46
Nick Pedulla
I don't really have an issue with that, but what determines copying and what isn't is very difficult thing to answer because if you're like, Oh, yeah, yeah
00:55:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric, Eric, Eric, it's fun watching Nick squirm, isn't Eric?
00:56:00
Yeet$
That's why I asked the question.
00:56:04
Yeet$
It really is, man. He's trying so hard.
00:56:06
Nick Pedulla
shit is at the time. I fucking better get going back to work guys.
00:56:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Even with that handsome Aussie accent, he's like squirming in his chair a little bit.
00:56:13
Yeet$
ah Yeah, this is an audio format, buddy.
00:56:14
Nick Pedulla
Well, it's difficult, right? Because yeah right i because it it's like, all right, well, if you just changed the wood, is that copy?
00:56:16
Yeet$
that That charming smile's not gonna get you out of this one.
00:56:26
Yeet$
Yeah, yeah.
00:56:28
Nick Pedulla
Like, it's too difficult to tell.
00:56:29
Yeet$
Right.
00:56:30
Nick Pedulla
And at the end of the day, I don't really want to be the guy to kind of
00:56:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:56:34
Nick Pedulla
say what's copying and what isn't. I think what my viewpoint now, and like I said, it has sort of changed and I'm sure it will continue to change, is if you're bettering yourself, then do it.
00:56:36
Yeet$
No.
00:56:44
Yeet$
Oh, that's a good guideline.
00:56:44
Nick Pedulla
You know, like, yeah.
00:56:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I like that air.
00:56:47
Yeet$
So like I, I came up with the 10% rule, which is admitted like you can't gauge 10% difference in a design concept.
00:56:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
Age, Experience & Originality
00:56:55
Yeet$
Like, you know, there's no way to to mathematically do that, but the idea of if you're bettering yourself is a really good rule of thumb.
00:57:02
Nick Pedulla
Yeah.
00:57:03
Yeet$
That's an interesting one.
00:57:03
Nick Pedulla
Yeah.
00:57:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And and the thing the the reason I think it's age, I do think it's age and experience related is because when you're young, you're so fucking hungry to like make a success out of yourself, have an original idea in the first place.
00:57:12
Yeet$
Mmm. Mm-hmm.
00:57:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And then when that's taken from you, you're like, motherfucker, what are you doing?
00:57:19
Nick Pedulla
Hmm.
00:57:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
like ah You know how hard I work to come up? And then as you you become more
00:57:21
Nick Pedulla
Yes.
00:57:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Confident and established in your business and you find your own artistic voice You start to take on a different role as opposed to like a survival role. You're thinking more empathetic ah You're thinking about others you're thinking about how can I help this?
00:57:35
Nick Pedulla
Sure. Yes.
00:57:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Community and this craft that I love so much floor continue to flourish while the world is like so, you know tumultuous out there ah how can we have this this community and this craft flourish and how can I
00:57:41
Nick Pedulla
Hmm.
00:57:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
give back to the to the thing that has given me so much. you know When I was young and getting into it, there were all these more established people and old timers who were so generous and so gracious to me.
00:58:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Now, I feel like it's a little bit my role to kind of reprise that, right?
00:58:06
Nick Pedulla
Yeah, sure, sure.
00:58:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So I see as I've aged, I think my view around, you know, original ideas and copying and gatekeeping has very much evolved, you know, similar to YouTube.
00:58:16
Nick Pedulla
Hmm.
00:58:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So while we talked about all of the success the successes we've had of of cabinets and doing everything right, one of the things we like to do in this podcast is talk about the fuckups.
00:58:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And so we thought it might be fun with Nick to do our favorite second segment, Feature or Fail, where we talk about what did not go right, what went awfully wrong, and why it went awfully wrong, and how do we feel about it.
00:58:37
Nick Pedulla
Mm-hmm.
00:58:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Who would like to go first?
00:58:47
Nick Pedulla
I see Eric's hands up there on this audio podcast.
00:58:47
Yeet$
Oh, I'll dive in. Yeah, yeah. So oh ah this is luckily is not a serious fail in any way. But I just got a standing desk as ah part of an ad read for a video in the next month or so. And um they were like, we'll just send you the desk. And I was like, you know what? ah like Let me make a top for it. Just send me the frame. you know like ill i you know Whatever, no big deal.
00:59:17
Yeet$
And of course, then me being me, I was like, I can't just like glue two boards together. So I had like, you know, flitch cut slabs and I was like flatten them and doing all the bullshit. And I was already way too far into it. And ah this particular tree I decided to use was a backyard tree that was cut down like 50 fucking years ago and air dried. And the moment I started working it, I was like, I've made a terrible mistake.
00:59:45
Yeet$
And so I'm book matching these slabs and like everything like they look good, but there's just there's so many checks in them and there's so much tension. And I was cutting it to width the other day right before I left for Florida. And the amount I've never seen this happen. Tell me if both either of you have seen this before. I've never seen this in my life.
01:00:08
Yeet$
I was cutting the joints at one edge, ripping down the opposite edge to rough width. And as I'm ripping it, the board literally like a check appeared and exploded and like mid cut and it just bounced right into the blade and you know it went a big deal because it's a giant fucking slab so it didn't like kick back or anything but I like that was the moment I was just like what the fuck am i I could have just said send me a desk but instead I'm the asshole out here like I'm already like 15 hours deep into this fucking ad read like what am I doing
01:00:21
Nick Pedulla
Mm.
01:00:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah
01:00:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Way to go, Mr. Self-employed.
01:00:44
Yeet$
I know, and now i I literally just put, what do I got? One, two, three, four, five, six, I got seven bow ties in this desktop.
01:00:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wait, question, did you make a video out of it?
01:00:55
Yeet$
I thought about making an entire video and like me and Larissa, my shopmate were like, there's like, there's so many, like milling down large timbers in different ways.
01:01:06
Yeet$
There's, there's videos to be had here. Uh, and then ultimately I was like, you know what? I don't feel like making a video. I'll just do it in like three hours.
01:01:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
01:01:14
Yeet$
And now I'm still fucking around with this goddamn test.
01:01:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Way to go, Eric.
01:01:20
Yeet$
So don't be an asshole. If a company wants to just send you a desk, just take the desk and don't make the fucking desk.
01:01:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right, Nick, what do you say?
01:01:30
Nick Pedulla
ah Okay, so this is one mistake that's still like any time I do draw fronts, I still think about this.
01:01:38
Yeet$
Oh, man.
01:01:39
Nick Pedulla
And this mistake happened 20 years ago when I was a first year apprentice.
01:01:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah Do we need to have like a therapy session about this?
01:01:46
Yeet$
Yeah, you need to lie down on the couch, buddy.
01:01:47
Nick Pedulla
Oh, I've spoken about this already guys. Okay. no ah So I remember I'd finally been given like some responsibility to help out one of the tradesmen building this chest of drawers. And it was out of this veneer that costs like a thousand dollars per sheet.
01:02:06
Nick Pedulla
Right? it was correct And this was 20 years ago, right?
01:02:10
Nick Pedulla
ah So it was just like a particular type of veneer. I don't even remember what it was, but the veneer was the draw fronts. Everything was beautifully, like the grain was matched flying from one drawer front to the next, that it ah whatever.
01:02:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What the hell is it made of?
01:02:24
Nick Pedulla
And I was screwing the drawer fronts on and put all of them on, went to go put the last one, got the wrong size screw and screwed right through the back of the drawer, through the drawer front.
01:02:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh.
01:02:35
Nick Pedulla
And that was the end of that veneer.
01:02:39
Yeet$
Oh, Christ.
01:02:42
Nick Pedulla
Thankfully though, because I was freaking out, ah thankfully my boss was quite nice about it.
01:02:45
Yeet$
Yeah.
01:02:49
Nick Pedulla
You could see him holding back the rage, but yeah, we did have to get another sheet.
01:02:52
Yeet$
like good
01:02:57
Yeet$
Oh, man.
01:02:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Did you have to just replace the veneer on that one drawer or the whole drawer fronts? All of them.
01:03:01
Nick Pedulla
All of it.
01:03:02
Nick Pedulla
Yeah. So they had to buy another thousand dollar sheet.
01:03:02
Yeet$
All of them, man.
01:03:03
Yeet$
Once they're continuous, man. ah is the The reason that hurts so bad is because like we've we've all done that.
01:03:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, I've been there.
01:03:12
Nick Pedulla
Yeah.
01:03:12
Yeet$
I've done that.
01:03:13
Nick Pedulla
Yeah.
01:03:13
Yeet$
Yeah.
01:03:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I've been there.
01:03:14
Yeet$
I had recently, I'll just do a double dip into the feature of fail right now. ah to Two years ago when I started focusing on YouTube, I i like was like, I'm going to go a whole hog.
01:03:26
Yeet$
So I decided to to get a job in a cabinet shop again, like part time to to make sure that i had some continuous income right some sustainable income and um the the guy i worked for was great we got along great um it was it was only like a three or four man shop we were doing some really high-end shit and we had this install um that it was like this I don't know liz what and it was just the cabinet install, like around the corner, you know, probably 40, 50 linear feet of, of cabinet fronts. And I had the apprentice with me for the install and I had made the jig to drill out the, uh, uh,
01:04:13
Yeet$
the handles, the poles. And because it was rushed, I like made it at eight o'clock in the morning before I had any coffee. And so I had labeled it, I meant to make it universal. So you could do left and right. But then I didn't. And then I labeled it as like, this is the registration side.
01:04:32
Yeet$
But he didn't see that. So on the one side, that like it was a double pole situation. On the one side, the pole was properly aligned. And on the other side, it was like six inches closer. So it was just in in the entire fucking run. like Every single one of them were absolutely fucked. It was like 14 or 15 drawer fronts. And I didn't even notice, because I was so focused on like getting everything like fit and make sure the job site was clean, the homeowners were there.
01:05:00
Yeet$
So we get the job done and I literally, like we had gotten back in the car to leave for the day and the GC comes out and he goes, Hey man, can I talk to you for a sec?
01:05:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh my God. Oh my God.
01:05:10
Yeet$
And I was like, Hey, what's up?
01:05:10
Nick Pedulla
Oh no.
01:05:11
Yeet$
So we walked back into, like he's, he's just silent. We walked back in the house. And he just stops and he goes, you see anything wrong? And like a pause. And at first I was like, no.
01:05:22
Yeet$
And then I just I just noticed every right handle is off by six inches and ah my stomach just dropped because we had like there was no way to get around.
01:05:26
Nick Pedulla
Oh
01:05:31
Yeet$
We had to refund every fucking one of those cabinets. And I was like, this guy's going to murder me.
01:05:35
Nick Pedulla
no.
01:05:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's a little bigger than Nick's, although a Nick with the price of that veneer, I don't know, it's close.
01:05:42
Yeet$
It was.
01:05:44
Nick Pedulla
yeah
01:05:44
Yeet$
Yeah, it was probably about the same.
01:05:45
Nick Pedulla
yeah
01:05:47
Yeet$
It was brutal, man.
01:05:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right, my recent fuckup is ah something I've talked about, but i didn't I didn't frame it as a fuckup. I tried to view it positively, but it actually was kind of a fuckup.
01:06:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So one of the things I'm passionate about is keeping my 100-year-old home looking 100 years old.
01:06:08
Nick Pedulla
Yeah, yeah.
01:06:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So that means anything that I do to the house has to be period appropriate. So it just happens that the whole house is clad in southern yellow longleaf pine. And that's a wood that was harvested to near extinction around the early 1900s in America. You cannot buy it anymore. It is not ah it is not available for purchase, especially ah with the growth rings where it's like a hundred per few inches. you know like these were These were virgin forests like slow growth, 200 year old trees and they quarter saw all of it. So it's straight line through all of it, right? So the only way to get this stuff is reclaimed. So my wife and I want to panel our dining room in this beautiful bead board that will match the house.
01:06:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So I've been stockpiling away old flooring. from like ah this It's ripped out of antique homes quite often as homeowners get some crazy idea that they want vinyl instead of the most amazing wood ever known to man as their floor. So I've been carefully, you know, I collect it, I stash it away. And so I had this big thing of flooring.
01:07:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
this beautiful like these trees were probably growing in the 1700s like beautiful virgin growth pine you'll never get anymore it's so gorgeous i have all this flooring so i'm like i'm gonna make the beadboard myself and i've done that before eric can attest he helped me with some of the beadboard i made for my kitchen uh but which was painted so this time i i take the old flooring i take out the old square cut nails right really old stuff and i I rip it in half so I get two slats from each piece of flooring and I do 180 individual beadboard slats. And to making the beads and the tongues in the groove takes five router operations. No problem. I love my house. I love my family. I'm happy to do it. So I i do 180 slats. No problem. Everything looks great. I'm so excited. I put a, you know, a coat of ah
01:08:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
of garnet shellac on it because it looks about the right color, I thought. And so I shellac 180 of these by hand, ah no spray because I don't have enough to spray at the time. And I um i come in like to last weekend. Yeah, last weekend I come into all proud as a peacock and I have a bunch of of slats under my arm and i can't wait to show my wife and i'm so excited and i'm like this is gonna look great and we hold it up and i'm like dude we're ready we're ready to install this is so cool and i put it on the wall and i realize like it's way too fucking bright
01:08:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
because all of this wood is like freshly sawn from the middle of the board of flooring.
01:08:49
Nick Pedulla
Mm.
01:08:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And meanwhile, the rest of the trim is a hundred years of oxidation. It looks stupid. It looks stupid as fuck. And I'm so upset. I'm like, what am I going to do?
01:09:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like, I have to make this stuff look like it's a hundred years old because honestly, it looks so dumb the way it was. It had all this really dark, beautiful Moody fucking trim and all my new boards are like hey Like like just came out of the fucking circus tent and I'm like I'm like sick to my stomach and I'm like, how am I gonna age this to look period appropriate?
01:09:18
Yeet$
ah
01:09:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So the last week and a half has just been me applying coat after coat of garnet shellac with dye a hundred and eighty times each coat day after day to just age it slowly and And now I'm finally there.
01:09:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I think I'm on the last coat. And yes, it's going to look brilliant. But boy, did this fuck. Boy, that was a lot more than I bargained for. I'll tell you that much.
01:09:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And and i I'm not trying to be negative about it. I love my family. I loved it.
01:09:56
Yeet$
It's gonna look great.
01:09:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, it's going to be great.
01:09:57
Yeet$
It's gonna look great buddy.
01:09:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But it's just one of those things where you thought you were done and you held it up and you're like not even close motherfucker. Try again.
01:10:06
Yeet$
We've all been there.
01:10:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, so that's my feature. felt Well.
01:10:10
Yeet$
All right, well, before before we go, we do need to ah let folks know about our good buddy Bill Burkle over at WTB woodworking. um And I need to let folks know that I will be over there in person on March 29, doing a shaper demo in the morning.
01:10:30
Yeet$
So if you guys are interested in joining me, come out for, for coffee, shoot the shit for a little while, learn some things about, uh, the, the Shaper origin, um, March 29th at, I believe 10 AM, um, will be when we're doing that and.
01:10:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric, will you will you be giving a lecture on whether CNC is actual real woodworking or not?
01:10:51
Yeet$
I will be chastising anybody who owns, uses, and or is endorsed by Shaper Origin, which will be very self-deprecating for obvious reasons. But yeah, that's it it'll be a good time. I'm excited to get out there. Bill's a good dude. um So come out and support him if you guys are in the area.
01:11:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
to Say they get the date again, March 29th, you said?
01:11:11
Yeet$
ah March 29th at 10 a.m.
01:11:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
01:11:15
Yeet$
Yes, indeed.
01:11:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right, so with that, well first, let's let's thank Nick.
Accusations of Copying
01:11:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Nick, thank you.
01:11:20
Yeet$
Nick, hell of an episode, buddy.
01:11:21
Nick Pedulla
No, thank you for having me.
01:11:22
Yeet$
Thank you so much for joining us.
01:11:24
Nick Pedulla
This has been great. I'm glad we could clear up the whole copying saga.
01:11:25
Yeet$
Yeah.
01:11:27
Yeet$
I'm glad we could let everybody know that you copied me, and it's fine.
01:11:30
Nick Pedulla
It was just so good, you know, fire out.
01:11:30
Yeet$
I forgive you, buddy. It's, you know?
01:11:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I'm glad you two thieves can become friends.
Creative Flow & Convergent Evolution
01:11:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
after this episode but but I do think the topic ah of simultaneous revelation and using convergent evolution as sort of a metaphor for it is really interesting and obviously this happens and that then brings up the the topic of copying and iteration and inspiration so I just love today's flow of Of of the conversation and we couldn't have done it without both of you would working crazies making beautiful cabinets I'm gonna post these cabinets ah When we
Thumbnail Humor
01:12:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
release I'll post it to her.
01:12:09
Yeet$
can you Can you also post the thumbnails because they are literally the fucking same thumbnail?
01:12:10
Nick Pedulla
Nice.
01:12:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah Well
01:12:13
Nick Pedulla
I ah think I've changed mine since, to be honest.
01:12:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Nick maybe you could sit Maybe you could send me the original where you where you pinched it off of Eric
01:12:18
Nick Pedulla
I've probably changed mine about 20 different times, but...
01:12:25
Nick Pedulla
Yeah, all right, sure. Okay.
Supportive Reactions
01:12:28
Yeet$
I will say, I just, I gotta say my, my partner is, uh, she, like, I love her to pieces. She is the most supportive person, but that also means that like, when we were having this discussion, I was like, Oh, you know, this guy, Nick, that, you know, he's a buddy of mine. We made the same cabinet. And she immediately was just like, you mean he copied you. I was like, I was like, no, no, no. It was an honest thing. And she was like, I don't know. I don't believe him.
01:12:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But we could
01:12:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Ha, she's got you back, Eric.
01:12:55
Yeet$
She does. She's ride or die, man.
01:12:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ahs So it's good to have a ride
Closing Gratitude & Insights
01:13:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
or die. Well, we couldn't have had this great discussion without you, Nick. I know a lot of our listeners know you and are always curious about your thoughts and your design process.
01:13:04
Nick Pedulla
Oh, awesome. Cool.
01:13:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So we appreciate you so much giving us your time and your thoughts.
01:13:10
Nick Pedulla
ah Thank you.
01:13:11
Yeet$
Yeah, man.
01:13:12
Nick Pedulla
No, thanks for having me. It's been great.
Patreon After Show Invitation
01:13:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right, so if anyone wants to, yeah, if anyone wants to join us on the after show, we're going to be talk about why the three of us are one off bitches in the after show and why none of us want to make the same thing twice.
01:13:14
Yeet$
All right, after show.
01:13:23
Yeet$
yeah That's the t-shirt for this episode, one off bitch.
01:13:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
One off pitch, Eric. You think of the best t-shirts. It's really good. All right. If you want the after show, join our Patreon and we'll see you there.
01:13:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Bye, everyone.
01:13:38
Yeet$
Bye.